Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Returning Barn Find BB To The Road
Posted by: DBF Jan 3 2022, 08:00 PM
I posted earlier about finding this survivor BB and I am working to get it back on the road by spring. I was asked to post more photos, and I’d also appreciate some advice on a couple items.
The first regards the engine. The car has 100K miles, and my experience with VW Type 1 motors is they are ready for a rebuild, at least a top-end rebuild at 100K. Is that true for Type 4's as well? I have the engine stripped down to the bare case/cylinders/heads since I want to clean off 100K worth of old oil/dirt, replace all the oil seals (yes all leaked), and to replace the fuel injection/air intake seals and vacuum lines to help ensure good drivability. Does the mileage say it’s time to keep taking it apart?
The second regards the fuel pump. It is still in the rear of course, but I plan to pull the gas tank to replace the old fuel lines, including installing stainless steel lines. “While I’m at it”, should I move the fuel pump to the front? It changes the originality of the car, but I plan to autocross and attend DE events with the car, so looking for safety and reliability.
Here is the car on the lift a friend gave me when he closed his auto repair shop this fall. It is a tight fit, but works for my small cars and old jeeps. I was sweating as the lift was being installed, hoping that all my calculations were correct, and was relieved when the 914 fit as planned. I was so anxious to see if it would fit that we lifted the 914 before we cleaned up the garage after the install. It will also allow me to store two small cars. Lastly, while on the lift I can still open and close the 914’s doors with one finger.
Posted by: iankarr Jan 4 2022, 04:34 PM
As I mentioned on your welcome thread, I've just restored my bumblebee and am happy to help in any way. It seems you've got a much more complete head-start on yours.
Happy to give you my take on your questions, but fair warning...some of my answers are heavily influenced by the fact that you found a unicorn BB. I know you mentioned that it's had a repaint, but other than that...as they say...it's only original once.
Engine:
100K isn't really a magic number for a rebuild. A lot depends on what you know about the car, and where you're at with the motor. Did the previous owner provide any documetation or service records? How sure are you about the mileage? How do the pistons/cylinders/rings look? (Please post pics) Did the guy you bought it from ever ride in the car / hear it run? Personally, if someone can vouch that the engine ran well before parked 
, the pistons look good and the cylinders don't have any scoring, I'd be inclined to just re-ring the pistons, hone the cylinders, have the heads checked and do a top-end refresh. You can also inspect the rods and crank for anything major by looking into the open registers. The quality of OEM parts is generally better than what's available today, and originality is important with an LE. The less history you have on the engine and the more worn the parts are, the more a full rebuild makes sense.
Fuel Lines:
The SS ones are great and it's generally advisible to swap out the 50 year old vinyl (?) fuel lines. There have been stories of those leaking and catching fire. That said, I've changed them out on several cars and in every case they were intact and still pliable. If originality is important and you don't smell gas in the cabin, the original lines may be okay for a while longer.
Fuel Pump:
I've owned two 914s with the pump in the stock location and never experienced vapor lock while driving (northeast and west coast). It's a documented issue and the factory obviously moved the pump up front for a reason, but since you're not in a typically hot location, I'd drive it for a while and see how things go. More likely will be that the fuel pump will leak. If that happens you can have it rebuilt, or go with a modern, two-port unit.
You're at the beginning of a fantastic journey, putting a rare vehicle back on the road. You'll find that this is an awesome community that's incredibly generous with their knowledge, so post often. Just be sure to include lots of pictures!
Be safe and enjoy!
Ian
Posted by: Chaznaster Jan 4 2022, 06:07 PM
I posted earlier about finding this survivor BB and I am working to get it back on the road by spring. I was asked to post more photos, and I’d also appreciate some advice on a couple items.
The first regards the engine. The car has 100K miles, and my experience with VW Type 1 motors is they are ready for a rebuild, at least a top-end rebuild at 100K. Is that true for Type 4's as well? I have the engine stripped down to the bare case/cylinders/heads since I want to clean off 100K worth of old oil/dirt, replace all the oil seals (yes all leaked), and to replace the fuel injection/air intake seals and vacuum lines to help ensure good drivability. Does the mileage say it’s time to keep taking it apart?
The second regards the fuel pump. It is still in the rear of course, but I plan to pull the gas tank to replace the old fuel lines, including installing stainless steel lines. “While I’m at it”, should I move the fuel pump to the front? It changes the originality of the car, but I plan to autocross and attend DE events with the car, so looking for safety and reliability.
Here is the car on the lift a friend gave me when he closed his auto repair shop this fall. It is a tight fit, but works for my small cars and old jeeps. I was sweating as the lift was being installed, hoping that all my calculations were correct, and was relieved when the 914 fit as planned. I was so anxious to see if it would fit that we lifted the 914 before we cleaned up the garage after the install. It will also allow me to store two small cars. Lastly, while on the lift I can still open and close the 914’s doors with one finger.
Love the cutouts in the ceiling to get the lift to fit!
Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 4 2022, 06:25 PM
I think Ian nailed it for your car. Of course.....more photos needed for our entertainment. 
Posted by: ddire333 Jan 5 2022, 07:46 AM
Welcome, looks like a very good example. I had a lot more work to do on mine so moved the fuel pump up front when re-doing the fuel lines and tank was out, "as I was in here", It did add quite a bit of time just getting the lines right as you have size (diameter) differences from the tank feed, to the filter, to the pump to deal with.
Posted by: DBF Jan 7 2022, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the great advice. Ian - if you're reading this - your advice and the videos are great and will be very useful as I get the car back on the road. I especially appreciate the comments about "only original once". I am lucky to own and co-own a number of old unrestored VW's, one of the first 996's imported to the U.S., and a WWII Jeep that were bought from the original owners. We keep them as original as possible while making them reliable drivers, and that is sage advice for the BB.
My original plan for a 914 was to find a relatively un-rusted example and upgrade the brakes and suspension for autocross and DE events. As luck would have it, I found yet another survivor, and even luckier since it is a BB, so I now have another car to keep as original as possible. I admit I was wrestling with the idea of installing stainless steel fuel lines, and after hearing Ian's comments, and I also talked with Brad Mayeur from 914 Limited who said he has never seen the original vinyl tubes leak, I will stick with the originals. I feel a lot better about this since I looked closer at the interior and it doesn't look like any pieces were ever removed. It looks like you need access to the tunnel in order to install stainless steel lines, and my experience with car interiors is it is almost impossible to remove and re-install interior pieces and get them exactly the same as when the factory technician put them in the car. There are usually tell-tale marks when pieces are removed (marred fasteners, old creases showing where the piece originally was set in the car, new marks on the vinyl), and there are none of these in this car’s interior.
Here are a few more photos of the car, including when I first picked it up with 20 years of dust, and the serial number of the front spoiler. Interesting it has the VW logo, and I am hearing this is a very rare part.
Posted by: BK911 Jan 8 2022, 07:14 AM
Love the cutouts in the ceiling to get the lift to fit!
Code requires sheet rock ceiling in garage if occupied space above.
Doubt anybody except a keyboard commando will say anything.
But there is a reason for this requirement.
Make sure smoke detectors are functional!!!
/rant
Love the project. Looks like you found a nice car which will be worth the effort.
Posted by: Cracker Jan 8 2022, 07:31 AM
Congratulations again on such a fantastic find ~ I am happy for you! I think you definitely need a sign "Parking of Porsche's Only" on the wall! Love the lift idea ~ I've never seen one installed through the trusses like that before ~ creative!
As others have said - it looks like you have a GREAT head start on nearly most projects that are taken on here on the World. Take your time, think before you act and as someone told me yesterday, "don't f - - k it up. 
Cracker
BTW: Do you have a limit switch on your lift??? 
Posted by: Freezin 914 Jan 8 2022, 07:33 AM
Love the cutouts in the ceiling to get the lift to fit!
Code requires sheet rock ceiling in garage if occupied space above.
Doubt anybody except a keyboard commando will say anything.
But there is a reason for this requirement.
Make sure smoke detectors are functional!!!
/rant
Love the project. Looks like you found a nice car which will be worth the effort.
Code would also require drywall/ Sheetrock to be on ceiling and common house walls. Would also have to have tape and mud if the garage is attached. If a fire broke out in the garage, you would want to stop it from spreading easily to attic space.
Now, enough of all the code stuff
….. let’s see more of this car!!!
Posted by: mb911 Jan 8 2022, 09:20 AM
Please tell me your kidding about leaving the original fuel lines in the car?
The stainless ones are so nice and so easy to put in.
Posted by: Freezin 914 Jan 8 2022, 12:10 PM
Please tell me your kidding about leaving the original fuel lines in the car?
The stainless ones are so nice and so easy to put in.
I completely understand as original as possible. There is something about the piece of mind alone. I’m sure there is a dozen or more members here that could tell you a few horror stories of their cars on fire on the side of the road watching them burn down. I am with Ben, please at least think about it. I would be a shame if something bad happened to either you or the car.
Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 8 2022, 12:16 PM
...the serial number of the front spoiler. Interesting it has the VW logo, and I am hearing this is a very rare part.
Rare is an understatement. This LE spoiler design was developed specifically for the 914 Can Am cars, although it was subsequently a factory-installed optional equipment item for later model 914s and sold through dealership parts counters to all 914 owners. It has been reproduced by many becasue of its desireable design, although none are quite like the original. Of the 291 914 CanAm cars on the Regsitry, over 200 of their owners would give their right arm for the chance to own this spoiler. It is irreplaceable at this point as there are no more in factory production.
Posted by: mb911 Jan 8 2022, 12:57 PM
Here is an example of original fuel lines. This car was incredibly taken care of with tons and tons of maintenance records. 
I almost have it back together after buying this basket case.
Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 8 2022, 01:15 PM
Here is an example of original fuel lines. This car was incredibly taken care of with tons and tons of maintenance records.
I almost have it back together after buying this basket case.
The 928 fuel line situation is similar but different than the 914. But your point is well made that both cars are known to burn with fuel leakage from defective or worn out fuel lines.
Similar in that both cars rely on rubber soft fuel lines and clamped connections on top of the engine. Different in that the main fuel supply/return lines on the 928 are metal not nylon, and the two primary flex lines are located in very close proximity to the passenger side head.
Posted by: mb911 Jan 8 2022, 01:19 PM
Here is an example of original fuel lines. This car was incredibly taken care of with tons and tons of maintenance records.
I almost have it back together after buying this basket case.
The 928 fuel line situation is similar but different than the 914. But your point is well made that both cars are known to burn with fuel leakage from defective or worn out fuel lines.
Similar in that both cars rely on rubber soft fuel lines and clamped connections on top of the engine. Different in that the main fuel supply/return lines on the 928 are metal not nylon, and the two primary flex lines are located in very close proximity to the passenger side head.
I agree.. just wanted to make a point. Hate to see any car start on fire. They don't make these anymore
Posted by: DBF Jan 9 2022, 04:00 PM
Thanks for the concerns about my garage. I'm within code requirements. There is only one common wall between the house and garage, and they don't share a common attic. We have two 1/2 fire rated drywall between the house and garage. I also have an emergency cable stop for the lift, and it is attached to the pump motor right next to the button that raises the lift so can also be used as an emergency stop if the button sticks.
I was inspired by Cracker's photos of the original owner of his 68 911. Here's me with my '66 VW in 1974, and with the 914 when I picked it up. I think the 914 has weathered the years better than me! 
Posted by: DBF Jan 9 2022, 04:20 PM
I looked closer at the fuel lines in the engine compartment and they don't have any flex anymore. I also wonder if this is the original fuel pump? It has a single inlet and outlet - I thought I read that 914's had two outlets??
The brakes will need some work. The master leaked all the brake fluid and is solid rust, so I bought an easy install 19mm from 914Rubber. The parking brake works fine, but we'll see how the hydraulic system works when I install the master cylinder. The front brakes certainly look like they'll need some refurbishment.
Posted by: Cracker Jan 9 2022, 04:47 PM
I'll be the first to say it...oh my, your chassis looks to be AMAZING! You certainly know this already but damn! This find just gets better and better...
Photo's look great - you as well...
Cracker
Posted by: iankarr Jan 9 2022, 05:06 PM
Agreed. Looking great.
Yeah, probably time for the SS fuel lines and a new pump.
Posted by: mepstein Jan 9 2022, 05:33 PM
Agreed. Looking great.
Yeah, probably time for the SS fuel lines and a new pump.
And caliper soft lines.
Posted by: ejm Jan 9 2022, 05:53 PM
That pump is not original. The pump used thru '74 had 3 inline ports.
I looked closer at the fuel lines in the engine compartment and they don't have any flex anymore. I also wonder if this is the original fuel pump? It has a single inlet and outlet - I thought I read that 914's had two outlets??
The brakes will need some work. The master leaked all the brake fluid and is solid rust, so I bought an easy install 19mm from 914Rubber. The parking brake works fine, but we'll see how the hydraulic system works when I install the master cylinder. The front brakes certainly look like they'll need some refurbishment.
Posted by: DBF Jan 12 2022, 06:32 PM
We had warm weather today so decided to start work on the brakes and could use some advice. All my other barn finds have had drum brakes, so not sure what to expect with a barn find with calipers. The front caliper pistons were stuck. It took quite a bit of work to free them up, but once they broke free, they depressed easily, and there was brake fluid in the calipers. They aren't leaking, the outer seal is soft, but does the fact that they were stuck mean it's time to have PMB rebuild them? There's a photo below.
I ordered new rubber lines from PMB's 914World deal, and I need new rotors. As the photo shows, they are at 11mm, but they are so rough they would be below the 10mm minimum if I had them turned. Porsche didn't really intend for these to be turned, did they?
Made a final decision to replace the nylon fuel lines with stainless steel lines. I pulled the lines from the firewall and tried bending them with my hands spaced about a foot apart. The lines bent and creased almost immediately - no flex left in these lines. As good as all the rubber is on this car, surprising how stiff the fuel lines are.
I read that the indent on the LE edition front spoiler was intended to allow use of the front tow hook. Doesn't look like mine was ever used.
I was reading the comments about the Creamsicle on BAT and one comment said the DOT sticker was replaced. Is mine original?
Thanks.
Posted by: dstudeba Jan 12 2022, 07:04 PM
Your sticker looks good. If you look at the one on BAT the dots are slightly larger. For instance on the side of the zero there are on 3 dots as opposed to the 4 on yours. Also the 4s on the VIN are the incorrect font, they shouldn't match the date font.
I can't tell but it looks like yours have the little crescent cuts which are on the original.
Edited to add: Below is the VIN of the LE on BAT which is a reproduction. It is added for ease of comparison to compare to the LE above
Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 12 2022, 07:43 PM
The label on 15473 is a repo.
Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 12 2022, 07:44 PM
Sorry, DP
Posted by: dstudeba Jan 12 2022, 09:54 PM
The label on 15473 is a repo.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I have edited my post to indicate that I was showing the BAT 914 LE VIN label that is a reproduction to compare to his VIN label which he had questioned the authenticity of.
Posted by: DBF Jan 22 2022, 06:00 PM
I pulled the brake calipers and they are on their way to PMB. When I propped them up to drain the brake fluid, the photo shows what came out. I will feel a lot more confident going into Turn 5 at Road America next summer knowing I have a new master cylinder, rubber lines, rotors, bearings, pads and rebuilt calipers!
I also have photo evidence why you should replace old rubber fuel lines. I was removing the fuel pump to test it and couldn't get a good grip on one of the fuel lines. I used a pliers to get a better grip, and with very little pressure the line just tore in two.
I also have a question about the glass in the car. There is a logo on all the glass but seems to be backwards on the driver's side glass. Is this original or has something been replaced? I have a photo showing a passenger glass and drivers glass for comparison.
Lastly, included a couple truck photos. The number matches the number in the door jam plate, and the car also has the pad under the carpet, and it is in good shape.
Thanks.
Posted by: DBF Jan 23 2022, 05:15 PM
Have a few more questions hopefully some of you can help me with. I was told a hiding spot for rust is at the bottom of the bulkhead/rear floor, and when I was looking closer at that location, I noticed a disconnected wire behind each seat. Can anyone tell me what was disconnected?
I was also told rust can hide behind the mat in the engine compartment since moisture can get trapped there. Mine seemed a bit loose and was easy to remove. It was just attached on a couple of spots - you can see in the photo. As I carefully lifted it out, I started to see red spots and thought rust. Turns out it was just dried glue. I put it back for now just held with the clips. Is it better to glue it back in, or just use the clips/plastic plugs so it can be periodically removed for cleaning and ensuring no moisture is trapped between the mat and firewall?
I also included a couple photos showing the crack in the dash and driver's seat. Is there something I can do to keep the cracks from getting any worse? Being vinyl, not sure if there is any treatment anyone has tried that keeps the vinyl from shrinking further?
Thanks.
Posted by: iankarr Jan 24 2022, 01:34 AM
The news keeps getting better. Great that you still have the trunk stamp...and that everything appears solid. The disconnected wires are for the seat belt interlock which used to prevent the car from starting when someone was sitting in a seat without the belt clicked in. That coiled line leads to the seat base sensor. Very cool that you still have it. Most owners bypassed the interlock and/or removed everything. You def don't want to hook it back up, but it's nice to know the parts are there. Regarding the dash, I'm not aware of a product which stops cracks from progressing. 914 Rubber makes new tops that are super close to OEM. It also looks like a previous owner removed the floor tar, which can also trap water. That's a score cause it's a messy job!
Posted by: mlindner Jan 24 2022, 06:23 AM
Love all the pictures of your car. Looks like the shot with the two bugs was taken in Sun Prairie. Hope to see it this spring. Best, Mark
Posted by: DBF Jan 24 2022, 11:45 AM
Thanks for the info on the wires. That confirms what I was thinking when I looked at the wiring diagram this morning. It appears the interlock works by grounding the circuit, so disconnecting the sensors won't bypass the interlock. There are times I will want to start the car without putting on the seat belt first, so would like to bypass the interlock. Does anyone have a schematic for a bypass? I'm concerned that simply grounding the interlock sensor could also ground other circuits and create a parasitic drain on the electrical system. Thanks.
Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 24 2022, 11:51 AM
Here you go, no cutting required.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: DBF Jan 24 2022, 12:07 PM
The floor tar is still there - it is just hard to see in the photos since it has a black interior. Fortunately, it is still firmly attached so I don't think any moisture is trapped. It will be something to keep an eye on. I'm familiar with how the tar pads trapped moisture, especially with salt/melted snow in winter driven cars. VW used that system, and when I was buying/fixing up/selling VW's and 356 Porsches in the 70's, cars just a few years old could have rust through in the floors.
The trunk/frunk are both very solid. I have a paint thickness gauge and almost all the paint is original in the trunks. There are a couple spots that were touched up on the trunk floors, likely when the car was repainted, but amounts to less that 1 square foot of touch-up in total. The underside looks pretty good too.
Posted by: DBF Jan 24 2022, 12:09 PM
Here you go, no cutting required.
Thanks Jeff - simpler than I thought it would be!
Posted by: fixer34 Jan 24 2022, 02:18 PM
When you go to install the EZ master cylinder, follow this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ZHK5f_9bE
There are some tricks to make it much easier that aren't obvious.
Posted by: sixnotfour Jan 24 2022, 08:46 PM
early 911 cis pump,, 73.5-76
Posted by: DBF Jan 30 2022, 06:54 PM
I haven't done much on the car this week since I was doing some honey-do projects around the house and converting part of our finished basement to a workshop area. Yes my wife okayed it! I showed some warts on the car on an earlier post (touch up in the trunks, crack in the dash and drivers seat) and here are a couple other warts. Part of the headliner has detached, but fortunately on the edge so should be an easy repair. The bad one is the steering wheel. The original owner glued on a Porsche emblem. I used a heat gun and was carefully pulling it off. It was coming off fairly easily and I was almost done when it popped off and took a bit of the steering wheel with it. I'll try gluing the small piece back, but I suppose worse case is glue the emblem back. It has the same patina as the rest of the car and judging from many photos of other 914's, it was not uncommon for people to add to their cars.
Posted by: DBF Feb 1 2022, 08:34 PM
It was 40 degrees outside today, so a nice 50-55 degrees in my garage - perfect for working on cars. I have the engine stripped down to a long block, and this is by far the dirtiest engine I've ever worked on. I spent hours using plastic scrapers to remove baked on oil/dirt, followed by degreasers and still not done. Any advice on how to get the last bit that is still in the corners and pockets? I don't want to pull the heads and cylinders until the case is clean.
I also noticed some sealer on the case. Is that factory? I rebuilt many type 1 motors years ago and don't ever recall seeing this type of sealant.
I am going to order tires and looked at the spare. It is a Dunlap SP57. Anyone know what was the original tires on these cars? If that is the original spare, I'll keep it and get another wheel to use for the spare.
Posted by: seanpaulmc Feb 2 2022, 05:56 AM
My recommendation for cleaning into the cracks and crevices on the engine after spending days doing the same is to spray with brake cleaner, agitate using an acid brush, and wipe away with rags or shop towels. You will go through a lot of brushes and rags. Do in a very well ventilated area.
I started with all types of degreasers but they just didn’t cut it.
Lovely find! That is one solid car.
Best,
Sean
Posted by: DBF Feb 4 2022, 08:48 PM
I pulled the fuel tank, and the well is in good shape, although you can see it has been driven on dusty roads. The pads are fine, they are all the same light color, but for some reason look three different shades in the photo. Must be the shop lights and shadows. There is a spot where the fuel tank was rubbing on the body and there is some surface rust. That is the only rust - the spot that looks like rust by the brake reservoir is dirt. All the wiring looks good too. There has been no sign that mice were living in the car during its 20 plus year slumber. I was thinking of cleaning up the rust on the fuel tank and body, treat it with some POR 15 and put a fuel tank pad on that spot. Any different suggestions?
The inside of the tank has several small dime-size and smaller spots where the finish is coming off on the underside of the top of the tank. The rest is amazingly clean.
My guess is condensation. I was thinking about treating it with POR 15, but decided just to rinse out the tank, replace all the seals, always store the car with a full tank, and just keep an eye on it. As always though, feel free to comment if you have other suggestions.
I went through the box of heater parts I got from the owner. I am missing one elbow. I checked the parts diagram, and it appears that they are the same for both the driver/passenger side. However, I thought I recalled reading somewhere they are different. When I put it on the driver's side, it looked like it could rub on the j-pipe, but this was just sitting on the floor so could fit a lot different when on the engine. Are they the same part?
Thanks.
Posted by: DBF Mar 23 2022, 08:25 PM
Glad many of you enjoyed my "You know you own a 914 if..." post. In the spirit of the post, the 914 has sat quite a bit as I work on other projects, and my wife and I and friends took a trip south to get away from the Wisconsin winter. Also, in the spirit of the post, progress is in the opposite direction of getting the car on the road. You can continue reading or just scan down to see the photos to see where this story goes. I stripped the engine down to the long block to replace seals and clean it up, but "while I am at it", I decided to pull the heads and pistons/cylinders because, well it's just a few nuts that hold them on. The cylinders and pistons look good, and I have them soaking to get the carbon off so I can make more accurate measurements, but I'm optimistic they will be usable. I don't need a dial indicator however to tell me the valve guides are shot. Good news is I don't see any cracks in the heads, and the seats look like they will clean up. BUT the "while I am at it" syndrome raised its head as I now have 4 connecting rods just looking at me begging to get checked out. It's just two nuts to pull the number three connecting rod, and sure enough, there is some scoring. So that means I split the case, and it looks like someone dumped some pine needles and a pinecone in the engine judging by the remnants in the screen. Fortunately, even though the rod journal is scored, the crank doesn't look bad. I'll learn more when I get everything to the machinist, but it does go to show the "while I'm at it" that we all do very often is a blessing as that engine wouldn't have lasted with just a top end rebuild. The car is also earning its nickname "Some Assembly Required" even more so! BTW - anyone recommend a good machine shop in the upper mid-west? The shop I used years ago is no longer in business. 
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)