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Posted by: DaveB Mar 11 2022, 10:29 PM

The DOT sticker I have on my door doesn't look like what I see on other 1975 914's. The PPS said my car was Equipped for California. This is what the current sticker looks like:



Was this done just for California?

Thanks,

DaveB

Posted by: drem914 Mar 11 2022, 11:26 PM

Is it possible just because it was printed with black background instead of silver, they switched the order on the different lines of print? My 01/75 sticker (in silver) has the exact same text and numbers, just rearranged. Maybe someone with knowledge of originality knows better on here.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 12 2022, 12:59 AM

one from my files. 75 1.8 from a cali car.
yours looks aged is all? under clear coat?

75MY made in 74 seemed to have vin sticker same as 74 MY, different text arrangement.



--------

and i put up a thread inquiring for historic info on 75 1.8s.
is your car a 1.8.
if so got any of this info on it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=358211

Posted by: Shivers Mar 12 2022, 04:41 AM

I put up a California tag, but wrong year .

Posted by: StarBear Mar 12 2022, 08:56 AM

Here's my MY74 (early) sticker. Silver and with little scallop cuts. Has anyone else seen a sticker with these cuts? I'm the original owner so I know it hasn't been replaced (removed to paint the sill, hence the tears, then put back on).

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 12 2022, 10:13 AM

Here is my list of safety compliance labels for your comparison: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/PLM.htm

There were minor differences from year to year. Made in silver and black versions - silver for dark color cars, black for lighter color cars - contrasting for legibility. All had the anti-tamper circular perforations.

Excellent qualtity repros are available now, no need to preserve the originals.

Posted by: StarBear Mar 12 2022, 10:32 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 ; Do any of the repros have the anti-tamper circular perferations? Important to me as I'm keen on keeping the originality (even the lightly cracked dash and modestly faded carpet).

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 12 2022, 10:37 AM

See my PM to you.

Posted by: DaveB Mar 12 2022, 01:20 PM

Jeff thanks. I didn’t realize why there was a color difference. Is there anyone that makes a decent repo of this style? Most of what I see is for 74 or earlier styles. I like to replace mine since it is partially painted over.

In the USA, did the 1975 forward door stickers have a catalytic and no catalytic converter sticker too near the DOT sticker?

Thanks!

DaveB

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 12 2022, 05:59 PM

thats an interesting question about the cat sticker for 75.
i've collected some stuff trying to do a bit of research on 75 1.8 L jets.
come across some very original cars on BAT and auction ad documentation.
including the very original looking 1.8 that sotherby's sold a few years back.
and none of those calif 75 1.8s i came across had the cat sticker next to the vin sticker.
and their vin stickers and door jambs were in excellent condition.
also never come across any non-catalyst stickers on some 75 49 state cars that were in original and very good to excellent condition (unrestored) in ads.

but i have seen 76 MY cars with that sticker, both cat and not cat versions.

someone here would know more.
like @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 12 2022, 09:09 PM

The CA 1.8L & 2.0L had cats but I have not seen the cat/non-cat label on the 75 cars, been looking for years. I am beginning to think the label was only a requirement for the 76 914s.

There are other labels for the 75 cars I have not found. :thinking:

Posted by: drem914 Mar 12 2022, 10:53 PM

Here is my 49 state, Chicago Ohare entry '75. Original and untouched.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 12 2022, 11:13 PM

Cool, thanks. Can you post the emissions label from the engine bay drivers side wall above the relay board, or sometimes on the engine tin, and the three big white numbers on the engine tin?

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 12 2022, 11:15 PM

ok @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9062

now that i have got hold of you out of the ether.
need some info on your car if its a 1.8
looks to be prime material/condition.

see my thread asking the questions.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=358211



EDIT - i see mr b has bolted in and is going for the important one, those stamp nos on engine tin. he is on it.

Posted by: Van B Mar 12 2022, 11:35 PM

Wasn’t planning on jumping into this thread until I saw that both @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9062 have a silver tag while I have a black tag one month after starbear and 13mo before drem!

I used to think the silver or dark was a date thing, but now I wonder if you got a light or dark tag based on the color of your car?!


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Posted by: drem914 Mar 13 2022, 12:05 AM

Thank you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 . The car was indeed a 1.8L, 49 state car delivered in Chicago. It still is mostly original aside from the major changes of a 5-lug conversion and bigger 16x7 Fuchs, re-covered seats and an exterior respray. I still have my original 1.8 with FI, but it was pulled from the car and crated for posterity to maintain the matching numbers lineage. I currently have a 2.2-4 that is currently in the engine bay. I will attempt to photo the stickers and numbers you are looking for when I can get a chance to open up the crate. The VIN tag is original. The painter asked if I wanted to remove during the paint prep and replace with a repro after, but I preferred to keep the original instead. Please pm me with any questions. I'll check out you thread and provide any info I can.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 01:02 AM

thanks mate.

no rush, when you get time.
sounds like your car has a bit more punch these days.
......and it came from chicago. love chicago.

Posted by: DaveB Mar 13 2022, 01:24 AM

Well this is odd. One month before my car was produced, they were using a different sticker style. I wonder if they wanted to use up what they had in-house and then started the new sticker in the 02/75 lots. But - the other example that matches mine is a California car. Could they have applied these to CA cars only in 75 and it was the indicator for a catalytic converter equipped car?

Based on what @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 was writing, with my car being Ancona blue, the sticker should have been silver like yours. But mine is black. It is almost like they just used whatever was available.

DaveB

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 02:01 AM

they were post war germans mate.
even in 1975.
never waste anything?
do the change when the old ones are used up?

my business partner is of german descent.
his father grew up as a young boy right after the war in germany.
i love listening to the stories his old man tells.
and some of them are not such great stories.
like crashed plane wrecks with skeletons still in them.

they threw nothing out those people.

they would have used up all their stickers?

as to being contrasting colors with body color.
maybe.
you would have to stack up a whole lot of consecutive cars together to ever know what the pattern was.

the point is you face the quandry of all trying to get originality.
and the answer is it cannot be recreated it can only be preserved.

i would keep your original sticker in situ if you want originality.
its there with all the passing of time and its effects.

or just accept that a renovation is a renovation and a recreation.
which is ok too. but a different thing.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 02:03 AM

i'm going with the idea that all the best colors had black stickers.

a bit like howling wolf versus frank sinatra.

my sticker is black.

Posted by: DaveB Mar 13 2022, 03:06 AM

BTW - Are there any examples of the sticker you posted in silver? I'm wondering if they were all black. Or silver is the new black. I only go back as far as Netflix.

DaveB

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 04:00 AM

i'll go back through my files and see if there is a sliver one in what i found.
the text layout will be the same as the one on your car or the one i posted.
you have got an original sticker on yours already - no worries.
they just changed the color of the background for whatever reason depending on the car color or whatever the theory is.
they must have done the new sticker layout sometime in late jan 75.

Posted by: StarBear Mar 13 2022, 07:10 AM

Hehehehe. A riot.
It’s my understanding, from Mr. B if I recall, that in general silver used on dark colors and black on light colors. But not always, apparently……

Posted by: Van B Mar 13 2022, 10:53 AM

Given the punch dot style, it had to be based on best contrast so the sticker can be read. What I wonder though is whether it was truly determined in a German fashion or if some Italian kid was working the VIN sticker station and picked the silver or black based on his own interpretation lol…

Posted by: drem914 Mar 13 2022, 12:12 PM

thanks mate.

no rush, when you get time.
sounds like your car has a bit more punch these days.
......and it came from chicago. love chicago.




Thanks, yes it does now go up the hill with a bit more vigor. Don't know how it got from Chicago to San Francisco and finally down to Orange County, in the 10 years in between, but would like to.
I tried contacting the orig. owner, with George Hussey's help from his database, but never got a call back after a couple of voice mails left. Still looking for an original Porsche at O'hare license plate frame, if there are any out there.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 12:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26107

found a silver one in my files for you.
right time period, right text.





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Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 12:30 PM

i can't disagree with that.

same color.

this one the italian sticker kid did?




he got poached by ferrari.

and the turkish kid got his job.



looks like he was on the beers and got laid the night before.

Posted by: Van B Mar 13 2022, 01:40 PM

Those two cars show that there is truly a limit to German quality control!

Someone gave negative zero shits on that second car! It’s so “Wonki” you know it has to be the real deal

Posted by: burton73 Mar 13 2022, 02:12 PM

My 76 mostly original paint car I sold to Dax in begum that was a CA car shows the vin sticker and the misaligned silver Smog sticker for CA

Sorry that the picture is not that good but there you have it.

Bob B

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 13 2022, 02:40 PM

I bet if someone wanted to, they could make list of paint colors for each year, and the pattern of either silver or black labels assigned to each specific chassis color would become evident. Two different shades of red do not establish a pattern.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 05:03 PM

those two 75s i put up are the same shade of red.
one is black and one is silver sticker.

see the post before for DaveB with 75 silver sicker.
see the post below with the other 75.

the 76 is a different red i believe with its cat sticker.
but the other two are the same.

i've seen a couple of other examples where both stickers are used on the one color.
i'm pretty sure i have come across a phoenix red 74 with a silver sticker, but my phoenix red has a black sticker.

silver would not work so good on white.
i think it was not necessarily hard and fast with some of the colors and they could use both stickers.

i also have a feeling that scrambling sticker colors kind of lends itself as well to security anti tampering measures. the factory might have had a log? does anyone know how it was intended that these stickers worked as a security feature - in terms of US law that is - and what other car makers did. where these a kind of universal sticker or are they particular to VW. there was nothing like them here in australia.

Posted by: davep Mar 13 2022, 05:39 PM

I have about 165 of the 914/4 DOT compliance decals, and have found 5 varieties in two colors (Black & Silver) each. Type 4 is quite rare, and was used for perhaps just 5 weeks in Jan 1975 and the early part of February. There are several errors known, some more spectacular than others. They were used in the USA and Canada, with Canada getting a small additional label. The CAT and NON-CAT decals were only seen in 1976 model year. Here are the 5 types:



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Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 06:37 PM

couldn't wait, went off and searched out answer to my own question.


USA is fantastic.
all this stuff back in time is retrievable directly from govt. archives on line.

NHTSA section 567.
came into effect 1969.

for all you guys,
your legal vin plate is the sticker in the door jamb.
not the plate in the front trunk or anything else.
its the door sticker the feds recognize and mandate.

the stamped plate in the front was an unregulated plate (in the eyes of the USA Fed authorities) that many manufacturers had been doing off their own bat for decades before. used by registration authorities in other countries, like europe or australia, or even the individual states of the USA prior to 1969 to identify the vehicle but not regulated by the law or an act of parliament/congress etc in those countries.

now i get it.

all manufacturers in the USA and importing manufacturers conformed to this label law after 1969 for the USA by either riveting a plate in the door or doing what porsche and VW with a tamper proof label in the door. the NHTSA act specified you could do one or the other.

everything printed on the label is word for word mandated by NHTSA 567.

and the letters have to be in contrast to the background.

so -----> there would have been a little bit of leeway for some porsche colors with their stamped labels in terms of contrast and not with others i suspect.
so you could probably get away with a silver or black label on some cars and do either, but not others. possibly why its not hard and fast with certain cars as to what color label.

heres the act in original form.




moral of the story.
technically under federal law you should not be tampering with that label.
because thats the VIN plate in america. the one and only.
and if you do, you were supposed to order a replacement through a registered company with authority to make a replacement. via the dealer.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 13 2022, 06:56 PM

above is interesting in relation to a BAT car that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17686 pointed out in another thread.

technically that car is incorrectly titled?
the vin in that case under fed law is the Vin sticker.

but i'm not a lawyer or a registration authority.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 14 2022, 01:07 AM

so DaveB's original usa vin plate/label is a rare one.
doesn't have germany written on it when VAG was on the top line.
fascinating. lesson - never assume anything?
didn't spot that and thought it had worn off his sticker or was lost in reflections/overspray.
never seen that particular one without germany on it.
thanks for visual run down of all the types.

history.
always tells a story, what the story is often hard to say.
but ......there will be a reason even if trivial.
in this case i'm guessing the feds stepped in around early 75 and said you had to include country of manufacture origin or location of company hq.

there is a bit of a blurb around importers in the original act.
and them having to be on stickers.
which they are not on most of the VW or 914 vin stickers.
the importer would have been VW North America?
a kind of subsidiary of Volkswagen.
they must have got tackled on that?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 14 2022, 09:00 AM

As I recall Porsche reassumed a controlling interest in the 914 in late 1974, so I wonder if the change in labeling was related to that?

Posted by: StarBear Mar 14 2022, 09:37 AM

You’re the MAN, Jeff! Thanks for all you do around here!

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 14 2022, 10:27 AM

Late 74 is also the moment in time that the front trunk chassis plates replacing the rear trunk stamped numbers, and the plastic fuel expansion tanks showed up.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 14 2022, 03:32 PM

labels seem to change across entire VW range, consistent with 914s.
its a VAG thing?

VWs get germany on the label like 14s.
later germany changes to west germany, have seen that on 79 beetle label.



also - whatever is on the vin label is mandated by USA feds.
you couldn't make up any or add extra words.
even specified exact ht of letters.

if they had to add in germany, the feds told them to do it.
germany versus west germany thing is interesting.
that would be unrelated to VW - something to do with germany's official name in international law/relations. i read about that once somewhere but can't remember exactly how it all went in terms of official names for east and west germany in cold war era.

i'm guessing if you searched hard enough you would come across VW fed vin labels exactly matching all the different types of 914 labels that davep has listed above.
including the rare one he points out. probably for approx same time period.

also 911 labels of same era. probably germany appears right about the same time.
VW north america were handling the import of 911s into the USA and distribution?

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 14 2022, 03:42 PM

thats interesting too.
front trunk riveted plate replacing stamped trunk numbers is karmann adopting VW practice. VW had been putting the body/production number on that small riveted plate across its entire range since 1970 (except for 914s). even karmann built beetle convertibles and ghias had the rivetted plate since 1970.

you are right that when it changes in 74 its because porsche now controlled the marketing. but i think its in a back to front way. the car was finally recognized as pure VW manufacture. ie no more 914/6s or shared platform across two distinct car companies. which could have been why the riveted plate had been left off since 1970. porsche did not want that recognizable vw plate on its 914/6s? instead wanted the fancy karmann plate which some earlier karmann built 911 bodies had. and back when vw and porsche started the project i think they all assumed the 6 would be a lot more successful than it ended up being. it would have been an early protocol. its a wonder they did not bring the riveted plates in for 73.

EDIT
ps
i did find something about that riveted plate on other VWs when i was looking for those wacky numbered 75 914 karmann plates that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 had spotted.

its got to do with how VW were making their mainstay cars. beetles, buses and type 3s.
those cars had floor pans and separate bodies. i think the floor pans had their own production number as did the bodies. VW introduced a protocol that meant when the two came together halfway down the production line already highly assembled as distinct halves of the car, the whole thing received the production plate at that moment and it was riveted on. easier to do on the moving production? dunno. i'm not sure how true that account was. its kind of not so relevant to uni body cars like the ghias, or 412s or 914s. or even sciroccos. but they introduced it and did it across their range. the 914 was the last car to go over to it.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 14 2022, 04:15 PM

and what your car is showing bob is that all cat/non-cat labels are silver.
no need to worry about the contrasting background color thing - no stamping out holes.

looks like the "turkish apprentice" was given strict instructions on how to achieve the effect.
line one up with inner door jamb. other with outer edge.
set up ex mm from bottom of vin.
despite our jokes it is pretty germanic.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 14 2022, 04:29 PM

one more absurd detail.
the VW riveted plates always had the paint code on them as well.
stamped vertically at the start of the plate in rotated letters.
i think the 914s left that off.
paint code stamp stayed on the karmann plate they retained in the door jamb?
must have been a fantastic bureaucratic exercise by managers sweating over that plate.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 14 2022, 07:25 PM

here you go mr b.

911s solder on with earlier VW type layouts - identical to VW apart from having Dr. Porsche AG etc instead of Volkswagen AG. 75 914 labels are not matching these.
they match VW labels from 75 on.

porsche probably using up their box of Vin labels given they didn't pump 911s out the door like VW did with beetles.






how you tell a restored 911 has a replacement label.
porsche were not using the term west germany in 75. they were in 79
its not on an original vin sticker from the 74-75 period.



vw were using west germany around 79 too. also not using that term in 75.
but did slip in "germany" right around that time.

---

have not seen a porsche vin label with just germany written on it like VW did.

i looked into it again to remind myself what that was all about.

prior to 1968, west germany had a formalised understanding with east germany that there was one german nation and they were divided. they settled on/or used the terms western germany and east germany. i think a modification was that east germany was something like the socialist democracy or socialist republic of (east) germany or similar.

in 68 east germany broke the agreement - announced it did not recognise west(ern) germany. they characterised west(ern) germany as a foreign country and not german. in response west(ern) germany reacted in some quarters by adopting the simple name of germany. (ie get stuffed east germany we are it).

at some point by the late 70s they resolved and agreed again that west germany or western germany was recognized and that each other were part of a "greater" divided germany.

i'm sure somehow all that played out in what they wrote (or didn't write) on those labels and manufacturing plates. and whether to put it or not put it on for risk of offending/rebuilding relations with the eastern half. a diplomatic episode.

the west germans were ALWAYS focussed on re-uniting germany. from the minute it was divided after WW2. tenaciously and diplomatically. the east germans less so (in official govt terms).

learned all this from my grandmother and had forgotten half of it.

when i was younger i used to talk about west germany.
she would always say don't call it that, its germany.

most folks think the terms western germany, germany and west germany were loosely used throughout the post war period.
not so.
there is a chronology.

it goes.
western germany. then germany. then west germany.
the words are important because they mean subtlely different things.
except for the use of germany alone which was strident and occurred for a time from the middle to later 60s and until the mid to later 70s.
a period sometime after the berlin wall goes up and disappears from use and reappears again after reunification.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 04:42 AM

i'm digging into this now.

a question for the expert.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

is it true that 1976MY 914s do not have the stamped metal manufacturers ID plate that 74 and earilier 914s have on the side of the headlight bucket and then shifts to the front firewall near the petrol tank on the 75 914s?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 15 2022, 06:42 AM

I dont think of my self as any kind of expert, just a guy interested in the details.

Yep to the question. VIN 4762901920


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Posted by: mrholland2 Mar 15 2022, 09:20 AM

The stickers aren't misaligned. The one with the VIN is aligned with the inside guide (the door gasket) and the one about the catalyst is aligned with the outside guide (the bend in the sheet metal). Makes perfect sense. LOL

Posted by: MCShack Mar 15 2022, 02:26 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

This is one of the three VIN and Chassis numbering questions that I have been trying to determine. I agree and think it was narrowed down to 04/74 to 05/74 where I started finding a Chassis tag in the front trunk recessed spare tire area below the right headlight bucket. The same thing goes for not finding the Chassis No. stamp in the rear trunk floor near the passenger side taillights which were closer to the rear trunk lock in earlier years. I have no idea when that change occurred, so I may have to add that to my list of VIN and Chassis numbering projects.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 15 2022, 02:38 PM

What to make of this label?


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Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 03:30 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

thanks for that answer on stamped metal manuf. plate jeff.

question prompted by karmann built vw beetles i looked at after @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 brought up the strange k numbers of some 75 MY 914s.

i noticed the stamped metal manuf plate disappeared off beetles.
it was in a highly visible position in the front trunk.
disappeared for 76 MY beetles.
thought at first these were cars that lost them during restoration.
but every beetle sales documentation i came across did not have them.

i looked at some standard beetles made at wolfsburg.
the plate disappeared on those too.

the following thoughts would only apply to cars bound for the USA market.

VW dropped the old style metal manufacturers plate during or at the end of the 75MY across the range. it introduced a new style plate with the water cooled cars coming in.

i believe what happened is that VW stopped putting two similar plates/labels on american market cars at the end of 75MY.

instead those cars got the Vin sticker label only.
it had the legal status in the USA anyway, the other old style metal plate was redundant.

all the way up to the end of the 75 MY the metal plate had stamped on it
MADE IN GERMANY. the vin label lacked country of origin during 70-74/5 MY.

the reason they redesign the layout of the vin label to give themselves space at the top is to include country of origin. since they are going to get rid of the manuf plate.

again, this is only USA cars.
I believe other VW models, including the ROW 76 914 would have retained the manuf plate. i'm guessing the plate went over to a new design.
i'm further guessing the new designed of the plate was the same or similar to what i have seen on golf mark 1's in the UK.
but i have never seen a 76 ROW 914.
i don't fully understand the whys of that - but i believe its possible that just like the USA adopted the Vin Label dictated by law in 69, the european countries (EU market) adopted their own standardised Vin system in around 76 and the old manuf plate was not up to the standard. ROW cars up to that time only have the manuf plate.

-------

early golf manufacturer (or is it euro vin?) plate.
this might be a repro but they are something close to this.
a 76 ROW 914 probably had something resembling this and likely in the front trunk?





---------

MADE IN GERMANY.

this is how it goes with the VW manuf plate or later vin labels across german built range.

up to end of 1964MY - MADE IN WESTERN GERMANY



from 65MY to end of 75 MY (approx) - MADE IN GERMANY



after this point old manuf plate ceases.

USA Vin Labels - GERMANY. (only name of country, drop the term "made in").
from late in 75MY until end of production of 914s.
courtesy of DaveP's run of 914 Vin Labels posted previously.



by 79MY - on german built VW range it becomes - WEST GERMANY.
not sure when the change in name happens at what model year.
but by 79 it has happened.




________

the rare vin label.
as davep has shown us, there is a rare label.
looks like the one with germany on it at the top line but does not have the name of country in yet.

its either a mistake label. and it could be.

or.

its a registration of a short moment in time where there is hesitation about what should go there. what is the name of the country?
the discussions were happening around this time in (West) Germany.
so at first the labels get nothing. (don't need to, still have manuf plate in frunk).
then they settle on GERMANY as they have been using it since 1965 (though its offensive to the East Germans and had led to the blow up in relations in 1968/9). and then shortly after that maybe a year, two years later, it goes to WEST GERMANY (the name that was finally acceptable to both East and West Germany.

the davep collection is fantastic.
that one sticker that only lasts a little while with the space ready for the name.
there will be i have no doubts plenty of other models across the VW range that recieved that label for a short time during the 75MY.

and then Germany appears a little forlornly for a couple of years.
because something has to go there.
and then you get WEST GERMANY.

------

all the badges and plates on 914s are a great little record of history.
the old karmann plate looking like it was unchanged since some time in the 50s.
WESTERN GERMANY.
the manuf plate which was provocative and is a response to the berlin wall and the high point of the cold war.
GERMANY.
then usa vin labels which are kind of coy and have nothing - until they have to.

if the 914s had lasted a few more years they would have worn WEST GERMANY on the vin label.
did not quite make it to that point in time.

-----------

i think thats the reason the vin labels get redesigned.
nothing to do with porsche vw company internal relations over a sub contracted car agreement.


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Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 15 2022, 03:37 PM

1976 914s were USA market only. No ROW 76 914s.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 03:47 PM

well that absolutely clarifies the point about the manuf plate.
they don't need one.
the Vin Label in the door is all they require for the USA.
the other one served no purpose.

but that vin label had to have country of origin on it.
the act stated it. its an imported car.
they must have been getting around that requirement for a few years due to the manuf id plate in the front trunk. fed authorities must have accepted that in the interim.

they did sell karmann beetle cabriolets to the rest of the world.
those would have something like a different manuf plate in them.
you won't come across one of those in a BAT ad unless someone was selling a grey market car, which is pretty unlikely.

i might seem to be being pedantic about term germany on these labels.
but i think if you went back into history of international relations at that time it will all be there.
international recognition of west germany would have hung on its acceptable name.
so what got written on those labels as country of origin was legal in nature in relation to international law and trade agreements. ie - what did the USA recognise as the name of what we once called West Germany from the late 70s to the end of the 80s.

for insight into this in the present day look no further than taiwan.

Posted by: MCShack Mar 15 2022, 04:03 PM

Now that's a funny one, I've had that in my database of 914s with odd VIN or Chassis number for one reason or another. I found this question on Pelican:

"I'm considering a 1975 914 in Burgundy with a cream interior being sold by a car dealer in Syosset NY. It's a 1.7 liter and a beauty with only 17,567 miles on it. The interior is all original. Virtually no wear. I haven't seen it in person but the extensive pictures show no rust. the vin is 4752901632. The car was repainted it's original color at some point, but it was a quality job so it looks factory."

Obviously should not be a 1.7 liter, most likely a 1.8L, but just a coincidence that you posted that one. The "9" is a little funky in the VIN, 1 too many dots?

Here are more pics including VIN and Chassis tag of 1632:

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 04:06 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

the 76 914 sort of proves something.
in the USA the vin label in the door is the legal vehicle identification label and technically you should not tamper with it.

i've read all sorts of stuff researching things for this about those vin labels stating athey are anything from emissions compliance to whatever blah.

no. thats the vin plate in america. period.


and of course the 76 is USA only because they start selling 924s in europe that MY.
the 924s get to the USA a year later.

i might go take a look at 924s.
we got them here from the start i think - but not sure.
sometimes RHD was also the year after as well.
they will probably have that new style vin plate from VW.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 04:21 PM

sometimes its helpful to look further across the VW range,
answers to some of these questions can be found there.

for instance the vin label jeff points to used for a short period of time from davep's collection. out there may well be buses and beetles from the same months with a similar sticker.

you are not necessarily going to find it on porsches - ie 911s. they are not built by VW.

that karmann number though sure is interesting @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 .

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 15 2022, 04:35 PM

Look for Recall Campaign HC: https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/Recalls.htm

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 04:43 PM

fantastic.

right.
so do those labels that are recalled overlap deletion of manuf plate or are they still on the cars as well.

its 75 when those labels without germany on them happen. jan/feb 75 approx.
when do they drop the manuf id plate, is it just for 76 or is sometime in 75?

reason i ask is, there might well be a clue as to when they stop making the cars for europe. the cut off date. if that vin label is all they put on cars after a certain date then they were directing all prdduction only to america?

and if they muddled it in 75 for a couple of months and did not have the old id plates anymore they were in strife. nothing on the cars to say where they were from, country of origin.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Mar 15 2022, 04:55 PM

Mickeys post above depicts that the car is fully labelled and plated. Unintentionally, as it turns out and it would have been conflictingly had the recall label been installed. Yet the recall was only for the 'official' VIN label (Safety Compliance Label), where this car evidently did not have the recalled label replaced.

Might be better actually. Think of getting the recall letter a few months after purchase and the hassles created with changing the VIN on the cars title and registration.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 04:59 PM

^ admittedly they did have karmann plates.

but they were legally BS.
had made in western germany on it, a redundant no longer recognized name for a country and no vin number, just an internal production number.

the vin law was pretty clear.
vin number etc and country of origin/manufacture.

they had their arses covered when they had two plates.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 05:12 PM

right.

so they were still doing both at that stage.

which means the label change and then recall was likely fed/DOT/authority induced?

they had been getting away with not having country of origin on vin labels to that point.
but the feds must have reeled them in on it?

i guess the manuf id plate had the vin chassis number next to country of origin and they let them do it for a while but then someone decided the id plate absolutely did not conform. non contrast. incorrect location. possibly not tamper proof.

and either someone bungled it at the printer and didn't print germany on the labels which were now it as far as the feds were concerned.
which is entirely possible.

or they hesitated. for some reason.

its very interesting. germany only lasts for a few years or maybe only 1 on those vin labels.

i'm pretty sure the plates the golfs get in 75 for 76 MY have West Germany on them.
whatever it was it was going down in that period.

looks like they had to settle for writing germany in for whatever reason for about a years worth of car production maybe. would need to dig up some more beetle cab vins as that pinpoints when germany stops being used in international legal terms.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 05:39 PM

ok

here are the vin stickers on 912E s
these cars are what porsche replaces 914s with in second half of 76 MY.

i checked a few just in case i was looking at restos with suss reproductions.
(one of these vins doesn't looked punched but the other looks original)
looks like this is what they are. might try to find some more just to be 100%

WEST GERMANY.

by late 1975/new year 1976 the question has been settled?
its west germany under international law, and the recognized name is adopted.

i'll go look for some karmann cabrios around that time too. see what there is.

i appreciate all the tracking of details and huge data base you guys have built up.
tracks all the little details and glitches around authenticity etc in cars.

but i'm sticking with my hunch that not having germany on that batch of Vins is not a clerical error. its a hesitation. GERMANY was supposed to go over to WEST GERMANY and it didn't happen on time and they kind of dilly dallied but have to give in and keep using GERMANY. it only lasts 1 year.

doesn't change the facts of the glitch vin sticker.
just gives a cultural explanation for it rather than keeping the gaze restricted to internal company relations or internal porsche vw business stuff. sometimes its bigger picture stuff explains things?

why i find original objects more interesting that restored objects.
although i admit, 30 years ago i would have been a reckless restorer.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 06:22 PM

checked a few more 912Es on BAT.
all of them have WEST GERMANY.
so they flip over from the start.


very quick check on beetles on BAT.
looks like they keep GERMANY on vin label until end of 76MY and flip to WEST GERMANY for 77MY which is mid 76 calendar year if they did the flip at model year change.

76

77


this one is pretty cool.
roger daltry's vw cab. 77 model. rhd - english market.
they were still using the stamped metal manufacture id plate for the ROW cars.
old style.
WEST GERMANY.
its a nice car.
great color.
man it was well documented in advert. a ton of photos.




so basically it was all going down in that time period. 75-77
changeover from status of country and its name.
and all the products are getting sorted.
my belief is they probably hoped to transition to west germany on these labels once it all got oked by internation treaties. diplomatic stuff but the feds like any random bureaucracy got them by the neck in the USA and didn't care. insisted on a name there and then no matter what was in the pipeline just ahead.

Posted by: davep Mar 15 2022, 07:21 PM

The manufacturer tag was not used on most 1976 911 & 912E & 914 but reappeared in 1977

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 09:05 PM

that would be correct for usa market cars davep.
technically the vin label does the job for a USA car.
912E = usa only and i now been educated that a 76 914 is too.

the manufacturer id plate would have stayed on a ROW 911.
they did not have vin labels here.
the closest thing to that is an additional plate that was fixed on here by the importer,
termed a compliance plate. its a metal plate similar to id plate.
affirms car complies with australian standards and regulations.

i can have a look at that one. my mate has a 76 aus delivery 911 he has had since new.
kind of be interesting to see what country name is stamped on the plate of that.

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 10:15 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244

i phoned up my mate.
i was in error. he has a 75 (constructed in 74). aus delivery.

id plate attached anyway.
same as US cars? identical i believe.
interesting how porsche get around it - don't say germany. turn themselves into a city. stuttgart-zuffenhausen.
never really looked at a 911 plate before!

nothing else on car body apart from the old fashioned plate in the door jamb similar to karmann plate. which says western germany like the old fashioned k plates.
nowhere else is there mention of germany or west germany on the car body itself.
(individual parts might have it, but not a major stamp or plate on the body).

you got to wonder how porsche were getting them past the feds in the USA as well with earlier vin labels with no country on them - and then no manufacturer id plate with matching number and country either.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 15 2022, 10:38 PM

here is a compliance plate from around the same time.
gets affixed to the car in australia by the distributor/importer.

no mention of germany ( a bit like basil in fawlty towers ?).

of interest to american viewers.
note officiousness of australian plate listing all the various codes and standards.
not sure where they put these on the cars, would have been a struggle to find the space.






Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 16 2022, 03:57 AM

my mate rang back with more info.
admittedly we are just australians with whatever we get.
but he has mercs from 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.
a 600 series.
some stuttgart taxis.
a harmless 4 cylinder 80s middle class station wagon.
and a fried early 90s v8 sedan.

all the plates are remarkably consistent.
made in germany.
mb could not be swerved.

as to VW.
its owned to varying extents by the german govt.
state of saxony.
i forget how it works but it may as well be nationalised.
20-30% shareholding, however you do the numbers and when you do the numbers.
but always 51% of the board.

for want of a better word its subject to being "politically correct".
in line with govt.

as to porsche.
very coy. village cottage industry identity.
the boys from stuttgart.
where is that again?
and aren't the family austrian.

i don't know about bmw.

but that sticker is fascinating that snuck through.

and if porsche had anything to do with it, like VW they would have turned sideways and said, i dunno, whatever. but i doubt they had anything to do with it. the sticker came out of vw inventory for a vw produced car.

porsche were making 9000 cars a year.
reprint a vin sticker if its wrong.
VW were making 9000 cars a day.
thats a big decision placing the sticker order.

i dunno how big the order was for supply of vin stickers.
a month. a week. a quarter.
but i reckon that sticker that the feds ordered the recall on (and they must have) got someone sacked in VW or sent to the cleaning department. there would have been a scapegoat for management indecision/what do we do etc"
because they just would not put a name on it? despite the us feds coming at them.
and its so obvious it is designed to allow the name of the country to be included.

but VW was not a private company or didn't have fully private shareholders like all the other. auto companies
it had the govt. breathing over its shoulders with a hefty 51% distorted interest in it, to stop foreign takeovers. despite the govt. owning only about a quarter to a third of it.

must have been very funny when the feds ordered the recall on the stickers.

and why not recall the 5 years of cars before that while they were at it?

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 16 2022, 12:26 PM

we have three varieties that we currently punch with your date of manufacture for 75 dollars including the sticker: silver 914-6 black early 914 without weights, late 914-4 with weights. Trying to get copies of the rest so we can duplicate and then punch those as well

Posted by: StarBear Mar 16 2022, 01:13 PM

Could you post pics? Not posted on website. Also, do they have the anti-tamper circle cuts?

Posted by: wonkipop Mar 16 2022, 06:04 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244



the glitch (or rare) vin stickers that lasts for only a month or two at the beginning of 1975 is VW wide.

it looks almost as if they rearrange the layout to create enough space for further words (name of country?) for the start of 75 calendar year and then don't include the name until the next batch of vin stickers in about late feb/early march 75.

here are kombi/bus vin labels.
same pattern of types as 914s in same chronology.
slightly different text arrangements as they are not passenger cars.
(two vin dates as some are kamper vans, second vin is interior kamper fit out).










difficult to easily find van labels from 76 and 77.
but by beginning of calendar year 78 it seems VW replace Germany with West Germany.

some beetle info i had on file shows that in 76 and 77 vin labels on beetles were using Germany.

Reasonable conclusion = VW adopt the name West Germany in 1978.
but only for USA bound cars on USA Vin Labels.
this all applies only to USA market cars.

cars for the ROW / Europe (EU/Common market as it was known) go over to using the name West Germany in 1976 calendar year. these cars retain manufacturer ID plates.

US market VWs lose the ID plates and transition to only having the Vin Label in the door.

------

USA cars

VW probably drop the ID plate in USA cars as a rationalisation and economy.
insignnificant on perhaps individual cars but across daily US export production it added up to a definite saving.

as a result of dropping the manuf i.d. plate for USA, vw had to transfer the country of origin/manufacture on to the USA vin label.

this appears to have been a series of changes for the first 6 months of calendar year 75.
914s probably illustrate the same transition on other VW product.

1. re designed sticker with space allocated for name. Jan/Feb 75.
2. addition of name - Germany - March 75 to end of MY 75 / approx july or aug 75.
3. introduction of 76 MY car, drops manuf id plate, has only vin label = to later 75MY cars.

at step 1 VW seem to hesistate. possibly attempting to clarify when the name change of germany will be recognized by the US govt. after a couple of months it is confirmed.
not a problem at that stage of the year as they still had man. i.d. plates on cars.

-------

ROW/EU cars

The EU is the first to recognize the new modified official name for Germany as West Germany. its adopted throughout those markets and territories for the ID plate in 76.

It is highly likely that the USA did not formally recognize the modified official name of West Germany until some time later. safe to say just before 1978 if VW labels are trustworthy indications.

I think they would be. VW was the only auto maker in germany where the german govt. was a significant stakeholder and had a place on the board (controlling interest).
everything would have been crossed t-s and dotted i-s.

conclusion.

the Vin labels are the province of VW and have nothing to do with porsche.

the Vin labels are tailored to the USA market only and reflect the protocols around wording and names particular to US - German relations.

the ROW of world cars diverge and adopt a different protocol.

--------

of interest.

other car makers in germany seem to plough their own furrow regardless of official govt. protocols etc.

MB are just made in germany from whoa to go.
post war occupation / independence / economic miracle era/ post re-unfication.
they never change their tune.

Porsche adopt West Germany in 1976 on their USA vin labels.
a full two years before VW.
probably less proper. they don't wait around.
but they don't have the german govt. looking over their shoulder on the board.

i don't know about other carmakers.

-----

i found a few more 75 Vin labels for 75 cars easily and quickly off BAT.
the redesigned stickers without Germany written on them are restricted to the first 8 weeks of 75. the first stickers with germany included appear at the end of week 8.

Posted by: wonkipop Apr 29 2022, 04:59 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 + @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25305 .

here is a second one of those funny vin labels i came across looking up 75 1.8 evap emission material.

the one posted above is 1632 car for the 75 MY. built 36th week of 1974.
vin label should say 09/74? am i right.

and this one is very slightly earlier. 966th car. built 35th week of 1974.
vin label on this one should say 09/74?





in originality section of the website.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=76497&st=40

found vw cabrio PKN numbers (sometimes called karmann #) from around 37th week of 74 - there was a batch of 914s around same week that used the beetle cabrio PKN# fifth digit instead of the 5 or 6 they used earlier and the 0 and 1 they used later.

maybe there were a few mistakes going on in the karmann factory at that time with PKN numbers and Vin labels. someone had the number stamping machines for chassis plates and vin labels set up incorrectly?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244 and i were thinking this is around the time that karmann shifts the 914 production line over to be with the beetles just after karmann ghia was discontinued.

------

there is a long gap in dates between #633 above getting its PKN# plate and getting its Vin Label. 35th week of 74 = 26-30 august. #1632 is similar. almost like they were stockpiling bodies in august? then pausing production, while rearranging the production lines, then getting back to business in october?