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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ OT Porsche should have used Aluminum
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 27 2022, 05:19 PM
It's timeless. On the left of the weld is original 550 Spyder aluminum from 54-55, on the right is brand new aluminum, hard to tell a difference!
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Posted by: mb911 Mar 27 2022, 06:06 PM
Oxy welded aluminum ?
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 27 2022, 07:14 PM
Oxy welded aluminum ?
This was TIG
Posted by: Brett W Mar 28 2022, 07:17 PM
Oxy/hydrogen is perfect for this situation. Much easier to planish as its not hard like a TIG weld. No soot and contamination like Oxy/acetylene.
What aluminum did you use? 1100 or 3003?
Posted by: carr914 Mar 29 2022, 03:44 AM
that weld looks like ass
Posted by: mb911 Mar 29 2022, 05:49 AM
I have been teaching welding at a college level for 21 years and thought for sure it was a picture of oxy welds because of the inconsistencies of the weld. Below is a typical example of aluminum TIG and you will see the white cleaning action on the edges of the weld that is why I questioned it. I will not comment any further as I am very happy to see the body saved and the willingness to preserve the vehicles.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 29 2022, 06:50 AM
Man, hard crowd to please. As I offer my "opinion" I'll also post a couple pictures of my "proof of work" to show that I have at least a little experience that formed the basis of my opinion. I built a concept tank for a Norton Cafe out of aluminum. This tank was pressure tested. There were something like 12 or 13 panels that were used to fabricate this tank.
First off, I'm with @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892 , great to see an old car being saved. That is the top priority. I'm only jealous that I don't get to play with 550's. I'm also jealous that I still can't lay that stack of dimes look on aluminum consistently like the previous picture.
On the subject of OxyAcetylene welding, lest we forget, much of the welding on the aluminum components and fuel & oil tanks for airplanes of WW2 was Oxyacetylene. Not as pretty as TIG but 100% functional.
OxyHydrogen would be nice but let's be honest, most of us don't have hydrogen sitting around the garage. I had no issues with soot contamination. Flux, and proper flame setting take care of that.
The weld appearance doesn't really matter as long as there is 100% fusion through the panel and the finished weld sits proud of the surface. As previously noted, it will be leveled off flush with the surrounding metal prior to paint.
In my experience, OxyAcetylene left less porosity and was easier to polish since it didn't leave the cleaned margins that TIG left. I found that OxyAcetylene left an invisible weld seam. TIG did not. I'll chalk that up to my poor TIG skills and/or ability to fine tune the AC cleaning of my Lincoln Precision TIG equipment. Invisibility of the weld seam on a 550 is moot, since it will be painted. Invisibility of the seam is very important on a bare polished tank.
Here is top view of the tank as well as the bottom welds that look . . . well, not as pretty.
So this is for all you guys with OxyAcetylene sitting around. Don't think you need TIG to do welding on Aluminum. Get the proper size tips (0, 00, 000), get the proper flux, proper goggles, then get out there and go weld some aluminum. Any technique you learn with heat and filler rod control will only help later on if/when you move on to TIG. 
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 29 2022, 07:34 AM
I can see you guys walking up to a 550 in 1956 after it won the Targa Florio and telling Porsche how shitty their welds are. Here are some Factory welds. Given what Porsche did with these welds I think the ones we are doing are ok. Not to mention you're missing the point of body welding, most of what you are looking at gets ground down and goes away. So while welding up some plumbing or exhaust where the weld will be exposed for the life of the fixture it might matter how pretty the weld is, when doing auto body, even aluminum, you weld, then grind so what matters is weld penetration and when you weld both sides you get maximum penetration.
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Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 29 2022, 07:49 AM
that has to be so cool to see those parts in person . . . to hold them in your hand, and to see what they did all those years ago.
I restored a 1960's Honda Dream back in the early 90's. The quality of the welds is terrible. Functional - yes. Pretty - hell no. That was back when the Japanese were just really getting serious about kicking America's (and the UK) 
in the motorcycle market. They were quick learner's and took the advice of people like Demming seriously.
Was super cool to be able to look at that early step in their evolution.
Same going on there with the 550. Absolutely cool and thanks @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7276 for sharing these sorts of photos and learning opportunities with the community.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 29 2022, 07:56 AM
that weld looks like ass
With that attitude, there is a reason people don't like you.
Posted by: Puebloswatcop Mar 29 2022, 08:02 AM
Unobtanium,
Pay no attention to nay sayers. Hell I used to weld as a ship fitter back in the 70's and 80's. Hadnt really welded since. So when I started working on my car, my welds didn';t look the best either, but they are improving and they are functional. I will say that unless you do it every day, it is a perishable skill.
I think that your project is awesome and saving an old piece of art such as yours is awesome... So don't let the nay-sayers discourage you.
Posted by: Root_Werks Mar 29 2022, 08:59 AM
Working with aluminum is hard, I've only welded it a few times with no formal training. Mild steel is much easier to work with.
Project is really coming along. Being able to work on such a piece of history is very cool!
Posted by: Brett W Mar 29 2022, 09:43 AM
The factory probably gas welded those.
It is a cool project, also interesting to see how crude the factory was with those cars.
Agreed, the process is kinda irrelevant, as long as you got full penetration and filled the pin holes so you can properly file and finish it. The underside is not relevant just the exterior as long as you can finish it to acceptable quality. once ground down it will need planishing and straightening anyways so fancy dime stacking doesn't matter here..
Posted by: Shivers Mar 29 2022, 10:07 AM
So this is for all you guys with OxyAcetylene sitting around. Don't think you need TIG to do welding on Aluminum. Get the proper size tips (0, 00, 000), get the proper flux, proper goggles, then get out there and go weld some aluminum. Any technique you learn with heat and filler rod control will only help later on if/when you move on to TIG.
Thank You. Do you pre-heat the aluminum like cast iron?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=7276
Very cool project.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 29 2022, 10:11 AM
Thank You. Do you pre-heat the aluminum like cast iron?
No. Not for sheet aluminum.
Posted by: mb911 Mar 29 2022, 10:45 AM
I can see you guys walking up to a 550 in 1956 after it won the Targa Florio and telling Porsche how shitty their welds are. Here are some Factory welds. Given what Porsche did with these welds I think the ones we are doing are ok. Not to mention you're missing the point of body welding, most of what you are looking at gets ground down and goes away. So while welding up some plumbing or exhaust where the weld will be exposed for the life of the fixture it might matter how pretty the weld is, when doing auto body, even aluminum, you weld, then grind so what matters is weld penetration and when you weld both sides you get maximum penetration.
Just to clarify I after many thousands of hours of aluminum welding thought for sure your welds pictured were oxy welded. As many stated that was the norm until the late 60s early 70s and the bead charitistics looked to verify it. My statement was not to give any hard feelings.
Posted by: mepstein Mar 29 2022, 10:46 AM
The process isn’t irrelevant. Maybe if you are mounting the part to a wall but not if it’s going to get finished and used. I’m not laying in on Adam. It’s his property to do what he wants and sometimes you have to just do the best you can. But welding is more than sticking two pieces of metal together.
Again, I’m not criticizing Adam. I often think I am doing good, at least for myself, when I take unused parts and turn them into something useful. In my mind, It’s better than letting them for in a box. If someone can do better, they will get the chance when I sell it off, give it away or I’m dead.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 29 2022, 10:52 AM
Maybe if you are mounting the part to a wall but not if it’s going to get finished and used. I’m not laying in on Adam.
Who would be crazy enough to do that?
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Posted by: lesorubcheek Mar 29 2022, 11:04 AM
550s are amazing. Thanks for sharing and, I'll say it again, I really wish I lived closer 'cause it'd be amazing to see this in person. Please keep posting updates.
Dan
Posted by: mb911 Mar 29 2022, 11:24 AM
550s are amazing. Thanks for sharing and, I'll say it again, I really wish I lived closer 'cause it'd be amazing to see this in person. Please keep posting updates.
Dan
Posted by: Root_Werks Mar 29 2022, 12:04 PM
Wait, wasn't the 928 essentially an aluminum body? Don't know about the full frame.
Posted by: mb911 Mar 29 2022, 12:34 PM
Wait, wasn't the 928 essentially an aluminum body? Don't know about the full frame.
Yes
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 29 2022, 12:38 PM
Wait, wasn't the 928 essentially an aluminum body? Don't know about the full frame.
I always thought it was just the front fenders on the early ones, but I could be wrong. I don't know much about 928's and have never had one.
Posted by: Shivers Mar 29 2022, 01:03 PM
Thank You. Do you pre-heat the aluminum like cast iron?
No. Not for sheet aluminum.
Thanks, What about something heavier? 1/4"
Posted by: Shivers Mar 29 2022, 01:10 PM
I had read the unibody was steel, hood, fenders, doors were aluminum.
Posted by: mb911 Mar 29 2022, 02:47 PM
I had read the unibody was steel, hood, fenders, doors were aluminum.
Yes but basically the front half is aluminum. I have one in the garage at the moment.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 29 2022, 04:09 PM
Thank You. Do you pre-heat the aluminum like cast iron?
No. Not for sheet aluminum.
Thanks, What about something heavier? 1/4"
I'll defer to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892 on aluminum stuff that thick. Out of my league. I've not tried to OxyAcetylene weld aluminum that thick. About the thickest I've done is about 3/16" aluminum and even then it was a small sized part that quickly heat saturates.
My gut says you'll have to V-notch that, preheat that, and probably need multiple passes. Aluminum transfers heat really well. As a result, it will take an awful lot of heat to get 100% penetration on 1/4" aluminum. I suspect TIG would have advantage here due to the precise concentration of heat vs. more distributed flame of OxyAcetylene.
Posted by: PCH Mar 29 2022, 05:25 PM
When you're finished with your car, I'm happy to give that weld a test drive to make sure it works ok.
Posted by: mb911 Mar 29 2022, 07:21 PM
Thank You. Do you pre-heat the aluminum like cast iron?
No. Not for sheet aluminum.
Thanks, What about something heavier? 1/4"
I'll defer to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892 on aluminum stuff that thick. Out of my league. I've not tried to OxyAcetylene weld aluminum that thick. About the thickest I've done is about 3/16" aluminum and even then it was a small sized part that quickly heat saturates.
My gut says you'll have to V-notch that, preheat that, and probably need multiple passes. Aluminum transfers heat really well. As a result, it will take an awful lot of heat to get 100% penetration on 1/4" aluminum. I suspect TIG would have advantage here due to the precise concentration of heat vs. more distributed flame of OxyAcetylene.
You would typically weld 3/16" and up with TIG as an advantage. Usually using helium to help with heat via ionization but again I feel I have completely side tracked Adam's thread..
Let's see more 550 material. Super cool. Originally the 550 was oxy welded without doubt TIG did not go mainstream until the 70s.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 29 2022, 07:53 PM
Here are some shots of the fender off of 0054, which is rumored to may have been touched by James Dean. Double rumor, when he went to look at 0055, which he later bought, he test drove 0054. No idea if it's true, but a small piece of Dean may have been in the backseat of my truck!
Wray, who is helping me build the car, was amazed at how many different pieces they welded together for the 550. Of course, he came up working for his grandfather, restoring Duesenberg's so long big pieces shaped is nothing to him, but apparently at Wendler it was make lots of pieces and weld them up.
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Posted by: carr914 Mar 30 2022, 03:35 AM
that weld looks like ass
With that attitude, there is a reason people don't like you.
I've got all the friends I need Thank You.
as for you
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 30 2022, 05:37 AM
that weld looks like ass
With that attitude, there is a reason people don't like you.
I've got all the friends I need Thank You.
as for you
These are your words, not mine. But trust me, there was a reason....
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Posted by: carr914 Mar 30 2022, 11:27 AM
oh there was a reason - it's called a Micro Managing Narcissist that has a revolving door of employees.
Good Try Stalker!
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Mar 30 2022, 11:44 AM
oh there was a reason - it's called a Micro Managing Narcissist that has a revolving door of employees.
Good Try Stalker!
So while in the midst of the biggest labor shortage in a Century, you got fired, that should give you pause.
As far as stalking, I've never posted on any thread you've started, I could care less what you do, but you on the other hand feel the need to insert you negative comments into every thread I do. So if there is a stalker, it's probably the un-employed angry guy, which in case you're keeping score, isn't me.
Seriously, go away, don't post where I post, you have nothing to contribute to my threads, so go yell at the TV or something, but leave me alone, stalker.
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 30 2022, 11:56 AM
Chill guys.
Posted by: 930cabman Mar 30 2022, 11:56 AM
Lets try to tone it down there boys, the sandbox is big enough for everyone.
Negativity has no place here or anywhere in this world. get some therapy if you need it
Btw, thanks for posting this thread, the boys making our 914's and their predecessor's had some real skills that are barely matched today. Oxy/Acty weld sheet aluminum!!
Posted by: Brett W Apr 1 2022, 12:37 PM
Wray, who is helping me build the car, was amazed at how many different pieces they welded together for the 550. Of course, he came up working for his grandfather, restoring Duesenberg's so long big pieces shaped is nothing to him, but apparently at Wendler it was make lots of pieces and weld them up.
Wray has a ton of skills. I am looking forward to going up and working with him sometime. You are quite lucky to have him somewhat close by.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Apr 1 2022, 01:54 PM
Wray, who is helping me build the car, was amazed at how many different pieces they welded together for the 550. Of course, he came up working for his grandfather, restoring Duesenberg's so long big pieces shaped is nothing to him, but apparently at Wendler it was make lots of pieces and weld them up.
Wray has a ton of skills. I am looking forward to going up and working with him sometime. You are quite lucky to have him somewhat close by.
We have a pretty good rhythm, I work on a panel for 3 days, he looks at it, smashes it up, fixes it in 15 minutes and we go from there. When it comes to metal I don't think there is anything he can't do.
Posted by: MM1 Apr 1 2022, 02:26 PM
Thank you for posting such rare treats as the patch layout on the inside of a 550 front fender!
It is interesting to compare and contrast the 3d requirements of patch layout in aluminum (real 3d) vs nurbs surfaces (virtual 3d that can be milled - using poly-lines by the way - remember area under a curve?).
It only takes one trip to the Monterey Historic Races (yes, I’ll continue to use that name) or a trip to a Porsche museum to see that the welds on the tube frames of 917s and early race cars is some of the worst welding you’ve ever seen in your life . . it looks like many of these were rapidly welded in the pits at Le Mans. I think it just gives the cars and their period a certain character, since as far as we know it didn’t affect the racing history.
I have tried to gas weld aluminum sheet only over the course of a few hours at work after trying out an english wheel. . .like all great skills, it ain’t easy fellas. My hat is always off to the Master welders - I’ll never be one, but I am pleased to see this 550 loved in any capacity.
As far as wall art is concerned - that 356 body has to be one of the best . . .please keep the 550 (and other interesting) pics flowing.
Posted by: MM1 Apr 1 2022, 02:33 PM
May I make a humble suggestion?
I believe that due to the picture content alone this could be a classic thread. I know if aluminum welding and patch layout ever comes up I’ll be searching for this thread to share with friends. It would be great if I didn’t have to tell them to skip the nasty parts.
All that would be required to make it the best it can be, would be to edit out the personal back-and-forth . . . and then delete this post too so we can get on with enjoying the things that we all love.
Please, feel free to tell me to f*!k off and leave things the way they are now. . .lol 
Posted by: MM1 Apr 1 2022, 02:35 PM
Nice job on that tank, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 !
Posted by: Front yard mechanic Apr 1 2022, 03:52 PM
All my welds look like bird shit ... I'm proud to say 
Posted by: 930cabman Apr 1 2022, 04:49 PM
Hats off to the guys who put these together close to 70 years ago AND hats off to the thread starter for displaying his talents keeping 0054 alive. 
Posted by: rgalla9146 Apr 1 2022, 07:51 PM
All welding comments aside.... I don't understand the opening comment.
Porsche did use aluminum.....no ?
Posted by: MM1 Apr 1 2022, 09:53 PM
Agreed - a title edit couldn’t hurt this 550 thread.
Posted by: oakdalecurtis Apr 1 2022, 10:13 PM
Don’t leave your Belgian Malinois dog home alone in your garage with your aluminum body Porsche…
Posted by: 930cabman Apr 2 2022, 05:53 AM
Perhaps you need to feed the puppy more often.
OUCH, how do you explain this on to your insurance agent?
Posted by: mate914 Apr 2 2022, 07:48 AM
Some one got their panties all bunched up. Do you even own a 914?
Matt 
Posted by: Front yard mechanic Apr 2 2022, 08:56 AM
Some one got their panties all bunched up. Do you even own a 914?
Matt
What do you call someone laying in front of your door. Matt
Posted by: SirAndy Apr 2 2022, 10:25 AM
Some one got their panties all bunched up. Do you even own a 914?
Matt
What do you call someone laying in front of your door. Matt
I have Matt from 914 Rubber saved in my phone under "Rubber Matt".
He didn't think that was funny ...
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Apr 2 2022, 04:54 PM
All welding comments aside.... I don't understand the opening comment.
Porsche did use aluminum.....no ?
I can always count on Rory to keep me on my toes. Let me explain.
In the 356 era Porsche made over 75,000 cars, less than 300 were aluminum, so yes, they did use aluminum on occasion but steel was the metal of choice and we know the results of this, lots of rusty Porsches. For example, this car was made the same year as the 550, 1955, it fared far worse in terms of metal.
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Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Apr 2 2022, 04:59 PM
Hats off to the guys who put these together close to 70 years ago AND hats off to the thread starter for displaying his talents keeping 0054 alive.
I wish 0054 was mine, it's not. My friend Bill owns it but has been very generous giving me access to it for a million photos and measurements. It went up for auction last year but failed to meet reserve at 2.2 million, I think.
This is me sitting in it.
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Posted by: MM1 Apr 2 2022, 09:30 PM
OT-I have a (professional automotive design) scan of an original 550 that a gentleman in SoCal owns. We milled a scale model from it once. These days an apple pro phone can scan it (I doubt the quality is very useable for milling - but as technology goes, I could be surprised).
Thanks for the aluminum topic tiitle explanation, though. I can only imagine that all aluminum 356 hulks found in overgrown fields would cost a lot more money today.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Apr 3 2022, 03:15 AM
OT-I have a (professional automotive design) scan of an original 550 that a gentleman in SoCal owns. We milled a scale model from it once. These days an apple pro phone can scan it (I doubt the quality is very useable for milling - but as technology goes, I could be surprised).
Thanks for the aluminum topic tiitle explanation, though. I can only imagine that all aluminum 356 hulks found in overgrown fields would cost a lot more money today.
Ironically a friend of mine was towing a VW bus through Europe and stopped at a roadside junk store because he was looking for camera parts. The guy had some camera stuff, saw the VW bus and brought my friend out back. In the weeds was a Gmund coupe, aluminum, the body was savable, the chassis (steel) had to be restored. He bought it and restored it. He has quite a collection of early Porsches, he bought the earliest one I've ever found, a 51 that was sitting on a mountaintop in VA.
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Posted by: mate914 Apr 3 2022, 04:59 AM
Some one got their panties all bunched up. Do you even own a 914?
Matt
What do you call someone laying in front of your door. Matt
That was at least funnier than the April fools joke.
You want to step on my for a few words? Is your wife cheating on you like Will Smith.
Matt
Posted by: mate914 Apr 3 2022, 05:03 AM
I love seeing Adam show all this Porsche history. I don't understand why he got so made about words? The welding does not look great... ITS OK... let it go without slapping.
Matt
Posted by: rgalla9146 Apr 3 2022, 07:09 AM
Like all auto manufacturers, Porsche built....and continues to build cars for profit
.....not posterity.
The race cars were built for a purpose.....to win.
They had no idea that fifty, seveny years on, their creations would be so
coveted.
They inadvertaintly gave all of us a passion and some a profession.
Steel, aluminum, titanium ? used as necessary.
Posted by: Unobtanium-inc Apr 4 2022, 09:23 AM
Like all auto manufacturers, Porsche built....and continues to build cars for profit
.....not posterity.
The race cars were built for a purpose.....to win.
They had no idea that fifty, seveny years on, their creations would be so
coveted.
They inadvertaintly gave all of us a passion and some a profession.
Steel, aluminum, titanium ? used as necessary.
The Factory sure spent years not coveting the early cars. Here is Porsche #1 languishing behind the Factory in the 70's.
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Posted by: 930cabman Apr 4 2022, 11:30 AM
Like all auto manufacturers, Porsche built....and continues to build cars for profit
.....not posterity.
The race cars were built for a purpose.....to win.
They had no idea that fifty, seveny years on, their creations would be so
coveted.
They inadvertaintly gave all of us a passion and some a profession.
Steel, aluminum, titanium ? used as necessary.
The Factory sure spent years not coveting the early cars. Here is Porsche #1 languishing behind the Factory in the 70's.
Great shot and thanks for sharing, a half a century ago who would have thunk it?
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