Hi 914 World -
A bit of an intro, if you'll indulge me.
I've always been a believer in fate and karma. A believer in serendipity. A believer that the universe presents thing to us for a reason. Sometimes good, sometimes not. Fortunately, the journey of adventure I'm about to begin is one of the good ones!
Maybe a year or so ago, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 Andy calls and says he has a buddy looking to buy a rear valance for a 914 and do I have one I'd sell. I said that I do, give my contact info to your friend. A few days later, this guy calls and we arrange for him to come by the Red Barn and see if the valance meets his needs. He arrives and we start "the dance of the car guys"! He talks about his car experiences, I talk about mine. We talk 356s. We talk 911s. We talk 914s. Obviously, we have a ton in common, including a love for my LS build. He pours over my car, noticing not only the big stuff, but all the little things I've done, too. On this day, he buys the valance and we agree we'll stay in touch. And we do!
Over the course of the following months, he stops by pretty regularly, I visit his place and it's clear that beyond the car stuff, he's a good guy, we get along well and we're going to be friends.
So, one day, we're chatting about RacerBenz. my 2001 Mercedes CL500, Corvette suspension, mid engine, center seat track car build. Yes, I know, a horrific waste of time and money. But anyway, I say "What would be cool is to build "Benzo Ferrari! Find a Ferrari engine and trans and..." He interrupts and says "I have one! From a 360 Modena. And the trans, harnesses, ECUs, etc. I'd love to see it get used for something. Why don't you come get it?"
Fast forward to last week where I do just that. Here's what's in the Red Barn now: 3.6 liters, 400 hp and 275 lb/ft of Italian automotive porn.
You need help.
As those who've followed my LS build know, I'm a sucker for what I call "style points". You can imagine how long I sat in the shop just staring at this contraption. It is spectacular. The finishes look so purposeful. It really does look like it was plucked from a race car, not a production car.
It's sitting there and all I can think is "there's just no way it'd fit in a 914".
But at the same time, there's my car, drive train out for the latest round of upgrades. How could I not at least try?
But wait, it gets better!
I forward these pics to the engine owner and we talk, basically agreeing "I'm in if you're in!" But, I tell him, while it looks good in the pics, to REALLY make it work, I'd have to chop all that rear X-bracing out of my chassis. And I'm not going to do that.
He reminds me that he has a '72 914 chassis with GT flares, metal finished valances and rockers, chassis stiffening on the longs, 5-lug and essentially ready for paint.
We went and looked at it today. It's as nice a chassis as I've ever seen.
So. There it is: the next build.
There is one major thing that could bring this to a screeching halt. Most critically, the very first step is the engine is going to a Ferrari expert for a quick look-see. If there are any show-stoppers, this engine is this chassis won't happen. Should that be the case, the good news is there's a Porsche 3.6 sitting in the wings.
So, no chassis cutting is happening until we know the Ferrari engine, she is good!
We hope to have that done in the next couple weeks. And assuming it's all a GO, my outrageous goal is:
Debut the running/driving car at Red Rocks Classic in Sept.
Wish me luck!
This is going to be amazing! Hope it stays the factory color.
That’s some of the best valance work I’ve seen!
I’m completely down for this project!!!!
And there is so much room on either side of the engine for a pair of GT35 turbos…
I would put a Porsche six in the flared 914 and build a tube frame car without any bodywork to showcase the engine.
It's all my fault! Two wild and crazy guys
That's awesome! Do it!
I'd totally paint it Rosso Red.
To match the intake of course...
Are the output flanges in line with the hubs ? they look a bit to the rear.
What's the taped up hole in the top of the trans ?
Beware of Ferrari fanatics named Guido.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 - Man, that is a nice, straight, perfect looking chassis. I like the idea about painting her Rosso Red.
I really do think you need to expand the Red Barn, like double it's size. Wait, was that too much?
Hope the engine checks out - this will be cool.
I figured some of you might like this - thanks for the encouragement.
A couple things:
- Color: The owner is a fan of "nothing to give away what's up until you're right there on the car". For this reason, it absolutely won't be painted red. Too obvious a choice. But near 100% probability it'll be a Ferrari color. The owner is a fan of blue (me too!) and the current leaders are something along the lines of "Blu Scozia" or "Tour de France Blue". Look them up - both great colors.
- History: The chassis is PTS what looks like Raspberry and there's some speculation it might have been a Playboy car. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 Andy, I'll be in touch with more details to see if we do have something with an interesting history. But even if that's the case, the car has been flared and prepped for a /6 swap so, Ferrari engine swap aside, it won't be going back to anywhere near factory spec. Interestingly - and those who've followed my LS build will see why I think this build was fated to happen - this chassis has had its fire wall cut out and modified! It has subsequently been replaced with an NOS firewall but, come on! Are you kidding me?!?
- My involvement. At this point, I'm only building the car and don't own any of what you're seeing. This may change. We may partner on it, we may work out a trade. Lots of stuff, lots to work out. But one thing for sure, it's gonna be a fun project and learning experience.
Wow. I hope it is good, but the back up plan is nice too. Some cool stuff happening at the Red Barn
A pink 914 with a Ferrari engine...that would be something.
You'll have to have some hidden GoPros when you pull into a Ferrari gathering.....
....... especially when you lift the hood
If you decide against the flared body because the engine or something doesn’t check out I am interested in it.
What a cool project, looking forward to it !
Another typical Tygaboy post: virtually no 914 content! (but the gear heads will likely love it!)
I figured folks might enjoy some additional info and a closer look at the 360 engine/trans so here you go.
Great Video..DrySump Tank built into trans,,crazy...cool..
flat plane crank and 8500 rpm - audio porn.
How about i start sending you $300 a month from now to . . . uh . . . . forever and we'll start a payment plan while you build it.
My bet on the hollow rear trans cover is to meet rear impact requirement. Want energy absorbed before the impact sled hits the "solid" transaxle and begins to push the whole engine / transaxle forward to passenger compartment.
Because it was such a cool picture. I end up just standing there, staring at it. It is so crazy cool... I am so fortunate to have this sort of stuff essentially fall into my lap. Yes, I'm sure there are more than a couple frustrating days ahead but, this build simply has to happen.
That 914 could be the ultimate "sleeper". Even flared it will sail under the radar of most until they hear that engine. By then, it's too late.
The stars align again. I can't remember if I mentioned this yet but:
Turns out a recent acquaintance is a Motec dealer and owns a 360 Challenge car and a 360 street car! He knows these engines.
I had a nice, long chat with him yesterday and he's agreed to come by, inspect the engine, provide a list of "to do before firing" items and, once the parts are here, perhaps even do the work.
That is great! I would love to be able to be there when you fire that baby for the first time.
And I thought my flat fan and ITB conversion was mega cool...
Betty and I have been debating going to Red Rocks or to Okteenerfest this year. If this is going to be at Red Rocks, I want to see it in person.
This is such an awesome project, I’m waiting for the clever name….
Mule = donkey + horse
Took me too long to dig this up, but for perspective, here's a 3.6 with a 915
Intakes on this are also pretty tall but clear the engine lid (barely) the F360 looks taller still ...Can't wait to see how this project progresses
I like it! Could always go with the “PORRARI”
Let's keep with the "it was meant to be" theme. I've been sitting and staring at the drive train because, well, "Ferrari" and noticed the output flanges just begging to have something test fit to them. With my car apart, my axles were handy.
You now know the answer and can confidently state when you're next asked at this weekend's Cars & Coffee, "Why yes, Carrera axles do bolt right on to Modena trans output flanges."
You're welcome and can thank me later.
Seriously though, I suspected this might be the case. Nice that it's now verified. Even better is that once I get my Boxster trans back, all I have to do is some simple math and I'll know the length the axles need to be. I suspect they'll need to be shorter than the Carrera spec, but we'll know soon enough.
A successful first step, and I'll take it!
One other major decision has been made. I asked the owner what would happen if the engine needed major work. He said "I'll fix it.". So there it is. Decision made.
I'm going to pick up that lovely chassis in the next day or so and the clearance surgery will begin soon after.
This is fascinating. The fact the Italian & German flanges could line up. Two competitors
sharing a 3rd party supplier? Crazy. I would have thought a piece like this would be “in house”.
Anyway. I love this. Can’t wait to see where this one goes.
So cool of the Ferrari engine owner to concede a rebuild if necessary.
Wow, just wow. Chris you never fail to educate us!!
Ferrari and Porsche did share the 914-6/308 rear caliper. Small differences but same castings.
I was thinking 94dena or 914ena.
Looking forward to seeing this build!
Big win on the axles!!!!
We found a pic of the car from when the previous owner was starting some of the mods/updates. Hard to tell from this but that's the original PTS Raspberry - with matching wheels!
And so no one freaks out: No, it's not a factory /6.
Looks like they're in process of taking the ^*&%ing dealer bump strip side mouldings off. I'm about to do that myself. Can't take looking at them any more.
Chris, this is so cool! Nothing beats the music of a Ferrari engine? I’ll be in Napa starting next week, just saying…
The Ferrari SwapRod (as I've taken to calling it) chassis arrived at the Red Barn!
Now all I need to do is get that there drive train into that there car. I mean, how hard can that be?
I think you need a bigger barn now.
And now, some pics of the chassis:
Boy, I'm really unsure of slicing this one up for a swap like this. Take a look at what's already been done - and how nicely.
Let's start with the engine bay:
- 4-cyls mounts removed
- /6 mount installed
- oil tank prep complete
- prepped for A/C line
- suspension consoles reinforced w/bars to the firewall
- heater tube delete (some sort of electric heat was planned)
But it's up frunk where things get interesting:
There's this really nicely constructed, 2-part false floor. It's aluminum with counter sunk holes for the fasteners.
Any guesses what we'll find underneath?
Were to begin?
- louvered floor
- custom base plate
- prepped for what I understand is a 993 3.6 cooler and A/C condenser
- front suspension mounts tied together with that round support bar
So there it is. Let the debate begin about how this one is too nice to not finish as a /6 conversion. Especially considering all the parts, including a 993 3.6, are accounted for.
I happily admit, I'm torn myself.
Or, I dunno, maybe someone has an equally nice chassis and they want to try and talk the owner into some sort of trade? I'm just putting that out there. Worst that could happen is he says "no".
My Ferrari buddy is coming up on Thursday to check out the engine. Assuming things look OK, I'm being instructed to commence surgery soon.
And in place, they look the business. You can see how the tubes sweep up, forward then back around.
I did some guesstimeasuring on the width and fore/aft size and in checking the space between the suspension consoles, they may actually fit. The real issue is that the O2 sensors stick out the sides so those may not fit.
This may be OK in that 360 headers tend to rot from the inside out, being wrapped in the shielding that you see here. It seems good ones, which these are (!) are quite desirable/valuable. We can sell/swap these and get a set to cut up to better suit the needs of this build. Or make something from scratch that's modeled on the factory tubes. We shall see.
Speaking of those O2 sensors, here's some interesting stuff you likely don't care about: This engine has a flat plane crank, which is what virtually all 4-cylinder engines use. So what did Ferrari decide to do? Run this engine as two, separate 4-cylinders!
There are two of everything: cam sensors, crank sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, throttle bodies and engine ECUs. Yep, two. Each ECU runs 1/2 the engine.
Won't this just be the best, trying to figure out all this stuff?
Another amazing project!
Can't wait to watch this unfold.
Definitely in the right hands to make this happen.
The Milestone mornings just keep coming!
Yesterday, the chassis arrived. Today, my Ferrari-savvy buddy came by and gave the engine, trans and some other components the once over. Spoiler Alert:
It passed with flying colors!
He kept saying how nice everything looked, none of the typical corrosion on the various external surfaces, etc. Stop here if don't care about the details.
Up first, he outlined the maintenance services and related parts I need to take care of ahead of attempting to fire it: the most obvious being cam belts, pulleys and tensioners. He also advised on a couple other "while you're at it" seals and gaskets.
Then we pulled the plugs and borescoped the cylinders. So little carbon on top of the pistons that you could easily see the machining marks. Beautiful cross-hatching visible on all the cylinder walls. And the plugs all read "nice burn".
Then off came the induction and he did a quick inspection of the back sides of the intake valves. Nothing make you breath easy like hearing an expert say, "Wow. This all looks really nice..."
You already know this but I'll repeat it: The motor, she is good!
An additional bonus is he knows all the places to get parts and happens to be a dealer for some of the components I need.
It's things like where to get parts to re-core the water pump vs buying new, contacts at a place the modifies the clutch to make them last far longer, a source for a greatly improved throw-out bearing. The list went on.
It was great to have a knowledgeable person get me pointed in the right direction and even better to know we can proceed with confidence that we have a solid drive train.
A great day at the Red Barn!
Congratulations. That is the way to start a project; great chassis and great drivetrain.
Awesome!!!! I am really glad to hear that it’s fully green lit!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24781 - I'm a newbie to all things Ferrari so I can only guess as to why a "two of everything" approach.
My guess is it was lower cost and quicker time-to-market to employ available, well proven 4-cyl tech (these are Bosch ECUs and used on other model cars) than to spec something unique.
Clearly it works! This same set up is used on both the street 360s and the Challenge Stradale (CS) model. The only difference being a reflash done on the CS units that give a 10 hp bump. And I'm assuming I'll have to reflash anyway to eliminate the immobilizer function. Maybe we go CS spec?
My Ferrari buddy is, as mentioned, a MoTec dealer and he STRONGLY recommended staying with the factory ECUs, given how well the stock tune works. The induction system on this engine is pretty complex and he suspected it'd take a TON of dyno time/testing to even come close to what the stock set up delivers.
I'm going with the expert's advice.
Drive train mounting: Initial planning
I initially assumed this part would be easy. Just do it like my LS. I mean, the Ferrari has mounts on the side of the block, same as the Chevy, so just run a cross bar underneath and work out how that'll mount to the chassis. Easy!
Turns out, not so much. Being a dry sump, there's no room for a cross bar. We'll there is a small area towards the rear of the engine, but it's in the way wrong place, relative to the mounts on the block. So, I started looking for info on how the engine mounts in the 360 chassis.
SURPRISE! The one video I found shows it being removed out the top of the car. Not what I'd expected. You can see in the pic, the chassis has the two outriggers that support the engine mounts. I could do something like this but then the engine would have to go in/out from above - which means all the rear of car chassis stiffening and transaxle mount would have to bolt in. I don't think I want to go that way.
I'll get into more detail later but at this point, it's looking like there will be a couple removeable, intermediate "hanger mounts" that will bolt to reinforced areas on the chassis to provide those "landing pads" for the engine mounts. These will bolt in once the engine is raised up from underneath. For transaxle mount, there'll be a cross bar/support structure, similar to what's in my LS car, that will grab that single trans mount.
Lots more planning to do but I think I'm getting an idea of how it'll all work.
My best guess for the 2 ECUs is 2 MAFs. Not a signal that is easy to combine and average at 8700 rpm.
If the senders are 180 apart then it's likely the same ECU for both and any difference is a pin-out.
I'd try fab a cradle and use the existing -6 mounts, but I haven't seen the factory isolators.
Two ECU's is not just a Ferrari thing. The BMW 850 ( V12) used two separate ECU's as well.
I had a roommate in the 80's that worked at a Porsche shop that also serviced some customers exotic cars as well. I would go and help out for fun when I could. They had a grey market Lamborghini Countach they were working on. It was federalized with BMW CIS systems, one on each side of the engine. I got to go for a ride from there shop over to one across town that specialized in BMW's so they could get the CIS system adjusted correctly. Car would not run well below 3K so we had to keep the reves up. It was quite fun. Car also had straight pipes and sounded wonderful.
Or you could build removable mounting points from the chassis. Triangulated or whatnot. Would be lighter than a sub frame and less tubes to get in the way.
Chris - RE: Engine cradles and such: More food for thought in the shape of what Ferrari did with the 348 model (see pic). The removable cradle extended to mounting the suspension components, actually forming part of the car chassis. Boxster struts and lower links might be substituted...?
You would likely end up removing a lot of metal in the rear of the 914 chassis to do something like this which you may not be comfortable with.
Something to think about,
Is it running yet?
Yeah, I knew Tony was just pulling your chain. I know you are quite capable when it comes to cutting and welding, etc.
Then the owner said, "Come get the rest of the parts..." This is the first load. A bit of the back story is there were at least two 360s that contributed to the parts stash. One was an F1 paddle shift car, one was a manual. One was a spyder, one not. There are boxes of parts, not labeled other than "Ferrari". There's some F1 wiring, some manual wiring...
These are only some of the bins I've got to go through.
Who speaks/reads Italian? I'll need it to figure out which of these parts I need.
In cosa mi sono cacciato? ( )
Some folks have asked about the intake set up. It really is quite the engineering marvel. If you're like me and find this sort of thing interesting, the link below will take you to a detailed write up about it.
At the very least, know this:
There are dual, DBW throttle bodies that control the air flow into the plenums, just like you'd expect. But those butterflies in the intake runners AND the valve that connects the plenums? They're operated pneumatically.
Remember, all this was available on the '99 360 (maybe on some earlier models, I don't know). Want to see something interesting? Google the new 'Vette Z06 engine and look the design of its intake. Sure, its a bit more refined but it certainly seems Ferrari was onto a good idea.
Crap, I'm starting to like Ferraris...
Oh my . . . you are going to be busy for a minute or two.
After scaring the crap out of myself with the wiring, I needed something to make myself feel better so when I came across part of the exhaust, I couldn't resist a "test fit".
It actually looks pretty good. Certainly better in real life than in these pics.
And yes, that exhaust bypass is actuated electro-pneumatically. An ECU signal triggers a valve to open and that same pneumatic accumulator that controls the intake manifold pops open a less restrictive exhaust path.
I love butterfly valved exhausts… such a cool idea. I planned on it with my car but didn’t have room.
When I did my cars wiring I used my phone with a translation app. Also lots of stickers had numbers that I was able to look up on Google.
Do you have access to the wiring schematics? Curious how well made or not they are.
I think so...I've been asking for "space and time" once the Benz project was completed...what happened Chris? Ford Transit Connect...
Absolutely love this build, and after the other one Im so eager to see what this ends up looking like. That chassis would've been the perfect car to get forgiveness from my wife, bring that purple is her favorite color and the fact that I plan to build a flat 6 soon
Oh well, I wont try to derail this plan... and quite the opposite. A few plate ideas
Too many projects, not enough time. Well, that and we were searching for all the Ferrari parts that were somewhere amongst a very large (I mean LARGE) parts stash of air-cooled 911 stuff.
And it always takes longer when your searching is interrupted when you stumble on something, umm, "unique".
Factory 935 rear suspension, center locks and calipers anyone?
But back to this build. We found all the parts that were there, most importantly, the engine ECUs, oil separator tank (and cap w/dipstick) and the throttle bodies/MAF sensors.
And you thought the engine looked big before...!
Back to the parts. Just some perspective in a "and you thought Porsche parts were pricey!" sort of way:
The ECUs (remember, there are two) command ~$2500 - $3000. Each. That oil tank cap/dipstick? Used, they're about $200.
So finding all the parts we possibly can is a good thing.
As soon as my 914 is back together (hopefully in less than 2 weeks), I'll move the other chassis into the Red Barn and get started on fitting this drive train! I'm psyched to get started!
If you watched the earlier video, you heard me mention how advantageous it is that the Ferrari's transmission output flanges are higher than the Boxster trans. I thought it'd be nice to have a comparo pic.
Granted the Ferrari is a dry sump engine but just look how much lower that will sit in the chassis while not adding all sorts of up angle to the axles. Quite a difference, eh?
Looking forward to see it progressing
Happy, happy, joy, joy!
I just got off the phone with John Reed of John Reed Racing. He's the guy who did all the magic to get a Ferrari 458 engine running in this Toyota drift car. F-ing ridiculous stuff.
In any case, I gave him an overview of this build and we had a long chat about making the 360 run on a stand alone MoTec ECU - including swapping out the pneumatic induction components for servo-based actuation. He liked that idea!
The best ever news is that "the 360 is not nearly as complicated as the 430 or the 458 we did..."
So that is the MAJOR hurdle cleared! It was the one thing holding me back from breaking out the Sawzall on this lovely chassis. With this news, the build is full speed ahead!
This is going to be so epic...
PLEASE PAINT IT PINK AGAIN!
It is a 914, which is a bastard child of a 911 and a VW bus, powered by a Ferrari engine. So pink seems to be a really appropriate color for it.
I started inventorying what's there and what's going to be needed and stumbled upon this. I guess there's no choice on color now!
They're even more shocking in real life and yes, they are expired. Not that I'm interested in running a harness like this in a street car, even forgetting the color.
Hard to believe maybe but I have to admit, these are maybe a bit much, even for me!
On the other hand, this was in the parts stash: new, never installed A/C system! We've all seen the shape most of these are in (crappy, rotted/cracked) so I have to say, they look pretty nice when they're new. The chassis is already set up for A/C so this may actually get used in the build. If not, I'll sell it and someone will get a super nice set up.
As I get planning what to cut to fit the drive train, I started taking a closer look at the chassis. I'd only ever really poked around the top side. As I got under it, I was surprised to see it is / was essentially done! Bondo dust aside, everything looks really good. The flare install is particularly tidy and as mentioned, the rockers and valance metal work is top notch.
Final thoughts for today? Man, oh man, this is one "interesting" color!
Keep it pink!
Of course I find myself at odds with others. Pink is not my choice for a seriously nice 914. Yeah, I get the whole "pig" car, but that's different. Sorry, but this is sure to be a top-drawer car and I believe pink will hurt the cars appeal.
I go back and forth. Raspberry is actually a nice looking color, if a bit feminine for the build. Something else to consider, as was pointed out to me by @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony, is this color would likely clash with the Ferrari red on that intake.
I could always paint the car Raspberry to keep it PTS then wrap it whatever I like at that point.
Lots to work out - and plenty of time to do it.
I was thinking further about the location and orientation of the engine/trans. What is the oiling strategy for the transmission? Are there any specific angles or pickup
Levels you are going to need to maintain?
Yes, I saw the color yesterday- the bottom of the car is nicely finished and in color; it's raspberry. I told Chris, if it were mine, it would likely remain the factory PTS raspberry. I don't think it looks pink.
I’d rock the raspberry all day. I always thought it to be a cool colour.
That power plant and colour. Win!
So glad to hear the chassis is sound.
Mighty bold words partner.....
Thursday, August 11, 2022: Project F-NARP officially begins. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - it's really happening!
The pristine chassis has been sliced and diced - and haters gonna hate but I did it anyway.
Some before and after to get things going.
I'm going to try and preserve the rear section of the trunk and use the factory metal to build an abbreviated sorta golf bag sized trunk area so there's at least some sealed storage/luggage capability.
Successful first day's work with the initial clearance cuts made and a first attempt at drive train fit. So, what do we know at this point?
- the whole thing needs to come up about 2" which means the 914 trans cross bar and the trunk floor immediately behind the Ferrari trans hanger mount need to be notched and raised maybe 3-4".
- the cam belt drives are contacting the firewall so either the drive train moves back or the firewall gets notched, or a little of both.
- the axle angle is great and I can move things forward or back and still be well in range of acceptable to the CVs.
- it looks awesome!
Looking good Chris!
This one is gonna be really cool.
A couple more pics to finish out Day 1:
Even though it's a relatively small engine, by the time you get all the ancillary system components bolted on, it ends up a pretty large overall size envelope. Here it is with the rest of the intake and the oil/air separater.
Note that the ECU I'm planning to use eliminates those MAF (mass air flow) sensors in favor of MAP (manifold absolute pressure) so everything from those corregated bellows on back will be gone.
Also, I'll cut and tip the ends of the plenums so the throttle bodies aim downward and dive down under the trunk.
That cross bar will have tabs added and it'll serve as the main upper trans mount, as well as adding some strength to that area of the chassis. It'll also be tied into the chassis in ways I haven't yet worked out...! There's also a lower trans mount tab that I think I can tie up to the factory 914 trans mounting points, so that's pretty cool.
And finally, a super rough idea of the abbreviated trunk - and yes, it'll seal against the underside of the trunk lid! It'll probably be a bit smaller than what's implied here, and clearly needs a bunch of fab, but you get the idea.
I'm digging this, big time!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 - Hey Chris, Nice progress. And, a mini-trunk is better than no trunk. I think that is going to look cool.
tygaboy, I followed you here from the RacerBenz thread at GRM and have been watching your builds with admiration for awhile. Amazing work. Thanks for sharing so many details (good and bad). It's great to see the process.
That mini trunk mockup really reminds me of a Cayman rear trunk.
Love the trunk Chris. Can’t wait to put my eyes on the car.
F-NARP build, Day 2.
Let's start with the obvious: No, I likely won't keep up this pace. I'm just so excited to be back to fabrication and noodling on design and "engineering"
But I was back at it bright and early this morning and rough cut the rear of the trunk so I could get the drive train to final height. Here's where we ended up at the back.
I didn't fully remove that floor piece as I was thinking I may be able to bend it and retain the factory seam where it attaches the the rear panel. It'll need cutting at some point but I want to do as little re-work as possible.
Here's the important part: the bottom of the drive train is higher than the bottom of the chassis. Maybe hard to tell from this pic but it's higher.
And just LOOK at that COLOR! It's so cool...
Also, before you get too excited, those /6 mounts will have to come out. The driver's side colides with the alternator and it just doesn't make sense to try and use them "just because they're already there".
Quick poll: Yikes! or Oh, YEAH!
Just look where that plenum is going to be!
I'm voting "Oh, Yeah!
I have an old engine lid I'm going to cut it so we'll know exactly what this thing will look like.
What's the angle on the drive shafts? I'd rather reshape the firewall a bit to make the front covers fit than moving everything even further back.
The less angle on a drive shaft, the better.
Cut engine lid would look pretty rad. That idea gives me another. Have you settled on a name for the project? If not, might I suggest Roter Kopf as an homage to another car sharing similar attributes? I think it translates right, but @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 may have a better translation on that one.
Looking forward to seeing this build at the next WCR!
Thanks to Robert @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3898 , I had this spare engine lid. A bit of measuring and cutting and... BAM! There it is! Not even going to obstruct rearward vision! As expected, the trunk is going to need some surgery but that'll wait until the rest of the intake is worked out.
But holy jeebus, this thing is going to be so cool.
If you voted "Yikes" earlier, well, I'm sorry. You're wrong!
Oh God that is going to look good with the engine peaking out like that
You are KILLING me... And prob a few others
Subcribed!! This is very cool.
Gotta say…as much as I loved the idea of lowering the plenum to make this a sleeper, this is gonna look great—and people are going to trip out.
"Yeah but the engine in those—hey, waitaminute…what?!"
I've been a longtime fan of engine swaps, but this one may just take the cake...
At this point I think I would seriously consider making the trunk lid shorter and engine lid longer.
For the inlets I'd make a slip fit down turn instead of cutting/welding the intake. It's going to be visible so make it pretty.
I'd also keep the factory oil/water cooler. They chose to do it that way for a reason plus it works fine.
^^ Interesting points.
But engine lid longer, with its seam moved further back, will violate a key 914 graphic established by the ends of its targa bar—as will, of course, a Ferrari engine…though that kinda gets a pass.
I wonder about some of Porsche's early attempts to make a single-piece, rear-engined decklid and engine cover for the 914…something Chris is certainly aware of. Then it's "just" one hole in the middle-ish for that red intake plenum. Just thinking out loud…
Fully agree on making the turndown(s) pretty, but have no worries with Chris at work...
.....and here were go again! ...
Not much progress this weekend as Saturday was dedicated to finishing up the intercooler install on the Lotus 7 replica. Then this morning, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 Andy came by to drive my 914 and give me some advice on alignment / spring rates, as well as some input on this build.
In the afternoon, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony stopped by on his way from Bend to the South Bay. We geeked out on the Ferrari build and he gave me his usual excellent input on a few things. Then we took the E9 for a short drive to grab lunch. Best of all, he presented me with the COOLEST gift! I need to take some time and get pics before I post about it but let me just say, it's one of the neatest things I've ever received. I hope when you see it, you'll agree.
Anyway, once the always important social stuff wrapped up, I was able to do a rough cut of removing the engine tray tin and the /6 mounts - and remember, those mounts interferred with things like the alternator so they simply weren't going to work. Removal of all this allows me to get a complete understanding of the room I have for things like exhaust and what I'm thinking will be a cradle-style engine/trans mount. Just a bit more clearancing and I'll be able to start in on fabbing the mounts!
Chris, your car is blazing fast and drives very nicely! Thank you for sharing that driving experience with me! Your work is impressive!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 - I was toying with the idea of making a short "trunk lid" that was sized to work with the abbreviated trunk. But as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete points out, I'd end up with a body line in a location unrealted to any other design queues - so that's off the table. So, what to do?
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony to the rescue! Let me first say that if it weren't for Tony and his "quick sketches" (which are auto art, IMO!), I likely wouldn't have hood vents on my LS build. Or, if I did, they'd certainly be less cool! So, to be clear, I regularly consulted with him on styling ideas for my LS build and he was always willing to listen to my silly "I wonder if..." then noodle up a few ideas - most of which I just love! And this build is no different:
I've been talking with Tony and texting him various pics for the past few weeks. When he stopped by yesterday, he gave me this (among other drawings that I'll share later) as one of a few ideas for the engine cover/trunk. It's a leading contender at this point.
Yes, minor shape and dimension changes will be needed to work in the real world, just like with his hood vents, but it's the inspiration that's most important to me. Well, that and knowing there are other folks out there that want to see this project come togther in the best possible way.
Tony - Thank you, my friend! I couldn't do this without you. Literally. It's so great to get your fingerprints on this build, too.
OMG!! How perfect is that?!!
Back to the mundane stuff like getting the drive train mounted.
In a blast from the past, I spent a couple hours on the phone with my fab buddy Martin to get another set of eyeballs on the design I worked up for the cradle. If it's not already clear, I fully expect any number of folks to have significant input on this build. I have no ego around asking for/paying for help. Especially if it means the outcome is what I want it to be.
But back to Martin: As expected, he had a number of great suggestions, both structurally and design-wise. Best is that, overall, we agreed the cradle approach is a solid base design. Yea!
And for those interested, the pic shows the water-to-oil heat exchanger that helps initially heat and then stabalize the trans fluid temps. The arrows are pointing at the connections for the factory, belt-driven water pump which lives at the front of the valley. You can also see how they decided to get the water into the block near each cylinder via that "spider" looking H2O distribution component (external vs the GM internal circulation approach...) as well as the braided lines that get the oil in/out to the trans. The trans fluid pump is inside the trans.
So there's today's "how Ferrari decided to do it" lesson! Be preparred for a quiz tomorrow!
Still tbd if I'm going to run the factory water pump or go with an electric pump and just route to the in/out locations you see here.
Just a few days into this and I can confidently state: This is WAY more complicated than just stuffing things into the chassis, because Ferrari. But hey, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
Seems everyone on my contributing team likes to sketch! Here's Martin's cut at one side of the cradle we noodled up. The tabbed bracket on the right if the sketch welds to the lower firewall, the "j" shape tube is one side of the cradle, the bracket on it is where the Ferrari engine mount sits and the part with the "?" and arrow is the rear mounting bracket that'll weld on between the 914 factory trans mount/cross bar and the round tube cross bar you saw in the earlier pics.
Then once the headers are sorted (which is a "whole 'nother" packaging challenge), I'd like to see a bar that ties from the long, just ahead of the suspension console, down to the J tube at/near the engine mounting pad.
Coming along and nearly to the point where it's time to start fabbing all this. Exciting times!
You know, if you really want to give old man Enzo (and old man Ferdinand and just about everyone else) a heart attack, you could turn the drive train around, and make a rear-engine VW-Porarri.
WOW! Tony's sketches of the humps are a perfectly natural addition!
I agree with Andy, love Tony's sketch and that he is matching the "humps" to the front fenders. Looks great.
Design refinement. After more chassis clearancing and getting the drive train in what I'm pretty sure is final location, I bolted on the alternator. Good thing because is sits right where I was thinking a front engine mount could go. Not that I was close to welding anything, but... Sort of a "pants first, then shoes" moment. But you know me: You're going to get full transparency as I make my way through this.
I passed this new info and the pics along to Martin, we kicked around a couple ideas and he sent a sketch of the latest thinking. Note it's not to scale, just "to concept". The plan is 3" x 1" .095 wall for those main tubes, even though the sketch makes them look far larger.
It's just not possible to get a cross bar to sit directly under the engine mounts so the one you see fits in a raised section just ahead of the trans, a bit behind the mounts.
And yes, this drawing it's missing the rear section. Which is OK as it's far more straight forward than working out these main engine mounts.
Today's IRL exercise will be to get some tubes mocked into position and work out more accurate dimensions.
Hey, it's a process. And this is the part I just LOVE. Driving them is fine, I like makin' stuff!
When you don't have a 3d scanner, skills with Fusion 360 (or the like) or even a lift:
1. stand there looking at the drive train in the chassis
2. imagine how some design might work
3. try and keep track of things that aren't there - shift cables, water lines, wiring, exhaust system...
4. crawl around / scoot around / reach around trying to measure
5. mock up ideas with scrap and other random parts
6. take pics
7. get on the phone with Martin, email pics and noodle on the latest info
8. wait a bit for Martin to email his latest drawing
9. Repeat steps 2 through 8
Slower than it might otherwise be, but we're making progress. These latest designs account for the engine cradle and the rear transmission mounting system (TMS) - it will live between the rear suspension towers - but they're missing the mount where the engine cradle's vertical elements tie to the TMS. I've sent a rough drawing to Martin with an idea I like and expect later today he'll send an updated set of drawings. Almost ready to cut parts!
As I mentioned earlier, mounting this drive train is turning out to be a bit more complicated than I expected. I suspect this will be a recurring theme on this build.
My, how quickly plans can change. Another round of planning w/Martin this morning and...
To optimize the Ferrari trans hanger mount, and with all the other stuff planned for this build, it started making more sense to lose the factory trunk and trans cross bar. So out it comes.
And a better, no-twisting-moment, trans mount system can be installed. Just mocked in approximate location, as you can see, but the transmission mounting tab will sit between these bars. Structurally better, for sure.
I'll fab a removable trunk floor/wall that can seal against the trunk lid but be taken out to show off all the mechanicalness.
And the updated, not-to-scale sketch of the trans mount with the bracket to connect the engine cradle vertical. One of those tabs on each side of the vertical.
And I hope you enjoy seeing this level of development process vs me just posting when something is actually complete. I like to document for posterity's sake.
You bet, this is an Epic build!
Although I can see the performance benefits, I am not into conversions with with non-P power train.
BUT, this one is clearly something else!
Please continue to share all of the development and these wonderful period correct work of art hand made sketches . I grew up learning mechanical engineering from my dad (mechanical draftsman and all around craft person) and always admired his hand sketch skills. No modern CAD can transmit the artistic aspect of engineering like those hand sketches.
You and Martin make a wonderful duo. This will be a nicely engineered and well built car!
I love the drawings — speaking my language
Well, sorry to report there will be no more drawings as I've decided to cancel this project.
This piece of crap chassis is rusty and I just don't think I can deal with it...
Interesting though and another example of "Every 914 has rust. You just haven't found it yet..." No sign of failure anywhere along the seam sealer but mositure found its way in. Granted, it's right behind the rear tire so I'm sure this area got hammered from underneath, but anyway, there you go.
The rust discovery was part of removing aaaaaaallllll the remnants of the factory trans mount cross bar and trunk floor panel. Messy, messy work. I need to get all this out of the way so I can weld in the spreader plates that will support the Ferrari trans mount cross bars.
You can see the approach was to remove all the unneeded material. That "hole" is where the factory trans mount cross bar used to attach.
With the removal complete, I reshaped the open area to accept the spreader plate.
Then it's the typical fab process:
- make a cardboard template of the needed shape
- transfer it to metal
- cut, fit, trim, fit
- bend to match the curve of the area to which it'll be welded
- fit, trim, bend, rebend, un-bend, fit...
You get the picture.
You can see how the spreader plate will weld to the inside wall of that opening then turn 90 degrees and get welded to the outer wall of the box section.
I'm really happy with the fit I was able to get. And with that done, I drilled for the plug welds. With those complete, the part is clamped in place. A quick check of each hole shows that the spreader plate sits flush against the inner panel, just like it should.
Note that there will be another spreader plate that covers this one and extends to support the upper cross bar. It'll make sense once I get to that piece.
More messy work grinding all those factory spot welds and removing sheetmetal to prep the passenger side for the lower cross bar's inner spreader plate. But it's all set to go. I got a nice fit here, as well. Tommorrow I'd like to get these welded in and maybe even get the outer spreader plates fab'd, too.
Probably one more messy session and I'll have all the unneeded sheet metal removed from engine bay/trunk area.
Such outstanding, uber cool fab work as usual Chris!
A master fabricator for sure.
Prep'ing the inner spreader plates includes coating the surfaces with weld through primer.
Your PSA for today:
Don't weld directly on weld through primer - never weld anything but clean metal.
Weld through primer is designed to liquify and galvanize the metal around the weld to help protect from future corrosion. It helps provide permanent rust protection on the inner edges of the welded metal pieces.
So, prep the area by spraying on the primer (the stuff I used happens to be black in color) then remove it completely from the area where you'll be welding. I just positioned the spreader plate and scratched where the plug welds would be then came back with a cheap-o Harbor Freight 3/8 belt sander and cleaned each weld location.
Plug welded! I use MIG for this as it's faster and easier, at least for me. I get what I think is a really nice result without having to worry about getting all comfortable, like I would need to do if TIGing.
I'll come back and edge weld in a few locations, just to lock the plate in a bit more.
Next was to final trim the 90 degree return and weld that edge from top to bottom.
A bit of sanding to smooth out all the areas where the outer spreader plate will sit then hit the whole area with weld through primer.
Ready for the outer plate fab and installation.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23922 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9712 - Thanks for the kind words, gentlemen.
I will say that this build has me really pushing to do the best I possibly can, not that I don't do that all the time, just that this car feels like it could turn out to be something really special.
Today, I grabbed the factory 360 trans mount. This is quite a piece! It's WAY lighter than it looks and a quick rough fit suggests it could be adapted to work in the 914 - but it's quite bulky looking and hides a lot of the cool-factor. Maybe it can be sliced up and that rear hanger section could be used?
The good news is that if this gets used or not, the plating I've done is still required so no lost effort... so far.
Anyway, multiple options are always good. Much more to do before final decisions are made.
I would go with the Raspberry, but with those red valve covers it needs to be silver or gunmetal imo. Something like that to show it off. I would be looking at paint chips next to the covers. Porsche Marathon Blue Metallic might be an option?
Ferrari Grigio Ferro
Trunk mods, excellent!
POORARI love it!
Before plating for the upper cross bar, I have to get that whole area to be in the same plane so the spreader plate has no gaps behind it.
A quick trim of some 18 ga and I have that piece ready to weld in.
Just a suggestion...
Get Ferrari Modena brakes for it. They are Brembo monoblocks, the exact same as the Boxster brakes, but they have Ferrari on the face of them. So you don't have to engineer anything, just bolt them on. Put them behind Fuchs with the Porsche crest in the center.
That would mess with both the Porsche and Ferrari purists big time.
And there's the right side, outer spreader plate plug welded. It'll get some skip welds along its edges, too. I just haven't gotten to that.
And to appease the fabrication gods so they ensure nothing fails, at the completion of any particular area, it's always a good idea to say, out loud, "OK! That's not going anywhere!"
Note that all the plug welds will be sanded smooth and all edges will be seam sealed.
Without going into the excrutiating details I'm working to understand, it's V4-ish of the rear transmission mount system, including some style points for the upper shock mount area. Just kicking ideas around...
Left side upper spreader in place. I clamp near each hole as I'm plug welding it to be sure the plate is firmly contacting the parent material.
Both upper spreaders are welded and sanded.
Engine mounting fun:
The tricky part is that the Ferrari has a chassis that's shaped to support the engine mounts - these supports are a fixed part of the chassis. And becaure the engine is wider at the top than the mount width, the drive train has to come out the top of the car. That's not something I want to have to do, if I can at all help it.
So I have to come up with an intermediate "something" that's removeable and allows the engine to be lowered out the bottom.
Much noodling and head scratching has yeilded this design for what I've taken to call the "landing pads". Essentially, it's a permanent addition to the 914 chassis that's as wide as it can be while still allowing the engine to clear. Then we have a removable chunk of a mount that connects to this structure and serves as the landing pad.
This structure isn't quite final as that tube that heads outward is only a place-holder and will need to angle up to the long. There will also be gusseting from this up to as high as practical on the chassis / cage tubing to combat any twisting force.
Today's goal is to cut a few of these pieces and mock this up in the chassis.
Note that this current design eliminates any tubing from the motor mount rearward: no more cradle approach. This eliminates any potential interference or "no-go" zones for things like the axles, exhaust or, in the case of the right side, the shifter cables.
Random suggestion: you should count all the times you had to put the powertrain in place for mock ups. I’ve often wondered how many times should be expected for a custom build… probably close to 100 or more by the time it’s all done!
I simplified it. Loosen the motor mount bolt, remove 4 bolts, repeat, drop. Weld the nuts to the chassis mount to make it easier. Pretty much standard formula for cars with multiple engine options. Tough part is the chassis mount as that area is not the strongest or best shaped part of the car. The trailing arm branch might need to be repurposed round tube. If you are concerned about bolt sheer add a dowel pin or two, plus they work great as locating pins.
Careful what you wish for. I thought it was a super duper thing that the Ferrari transmission output flanges were higher than the Boxster S. Turns out they are really high. Too high? I'm working on figuring out exactly this.
Here's a really rough mock up with the drive train at proper-ish height in the chassis and the trailing arm set to approximate ride height.
Because of the output flange height, the wheel-side CV will never be higher than the trans output CV; it's all droop, all the time.
What I need to work out is: Can a 930 CV (which has a max limit of 28 degrees) stay in range during operation? I'm pretty sure I'll have to add limit straps to stop things drooping too far when I jack the rear wheels off the ground.
It may also require lowering the drive train in the chassis and building a rub bar/skid plate. It wouldn't be any worse than doing a dropped floor, in terms of ground clearance.
So. Many. Items. To. Work. Out.
On a simpler note, the left side, lower rear spreader plate has been completed.
I got a nice fit on this side, too. A bit of grinding and it'll be ready for the transmission mount cross bars!
Transmission mount cross bar locating in process. I have a fair bit of leeway so much of it is down to aesthetics.
That last pic shows the mounting tab sits well under the plane of the top of the bars. Important because that's where the floor of the removable trunk will sit.
I've used bolt-on limiting straps to limit droop, and also plastic disks inside the shocks like Maltese Falcon mentioned to limit droop on different racecars. Either will do the trick.
For the trans mount cross bars, it looks like it's back to a revised version of a previous design. Shocking, I know. But there is a bit of a surprise / some style points when you see the overall design.
I also started in on the motor mounts. Many pieces yet to be fabbed but it gets a key item into CAD and proven to fit.
Hopefully, the drive train will be mounted in a week or so.
That poor mount… oh the abuse it will suffer lol
With a pretty good idea of the trans mount design, I started in on how to make it as simple as possible to locate the engine mount "landing pads". Rather than deal with taking the drive train in and out 100 times, leveling it each time, etc, etc, etc., the approach is going to be to make a fixture that replicates the locations of the transmission hanger tab and the engine mounts. The drawing shows the basic design. This will be made level to the engine so when it's level, I know the engine will be, too.
Then "all I have to do" is:
- Level the car (fore/aft and side-to-side)
- BIG IMPORTANT PART: locate the engine fore/aft and up/down and determine the transmission hanger bolt location. Not that hard really...
- fab and install the transmission cross members and hanger brackets to support the above location. The trans tab is dead center in the car so getting things properly located is reasonably straight forward
- bolt the fixture to the trans mount and swing it up until it's level
I'll then have the locations in space that represent where the Ferrari mounts need to be.
See how easy?
Then I got it in my head to verify some of the key measurements. I first made up a test piece for the landing pad. This isn't the final outer dimension, it's to validate the hole locations and get a better feel for how much room there will be for fasteners, to determing if I want to have permanent, threaded bungs as part of the part, etc.
My measurements were fine and it did uncover some info. Not a lot of room for fasteners with the holes that close to the rubber. Also, this mount is pretty soft. Surprising how much it can be moved by hand. I'll check with the Ferrari crowd but I think I'll play it safe and get new ones.
Also, notice that the upper "X" plate isn't clocked straight to the lower plate. When I looked online at the new part, they seemed in-line with each other. More info that you'll never use is that these mounts use 2 collared spacers, which means that if you're not careful when tightening the main mount bolt, you can twist the rubber and clamp it "out of alignment". That can't help with longevtiy of the mount...
More stuff to think about during final assembly.
See Post #245 above for pics.
Then, to get another measurement I can use for validation during the landing pad fab process, I went after getting the distance from engine mount to engine mount.
I removed the mounts from the cast aluminum bosses on the engine, dropped a plumb bob through the bosses and marked the location on the floor. Repeat on the other side, move the engine and measure distance between the dots on the floor.
Next I used this distance (561 mm, if anyone needs to make a 360 engine mount ) and, using that test plate CAD file, I made up what's essentially a "go/no go" gauge.
If this bolts to the engine mounts, I know my measurements are a "go".
I may be able to repurpose this for use with the fixture. I plan to start making that tomorrow. Slow progress, but progress nontheless. I'll take it.
I hope you don't mind me registering to throw in a few cents of Ferrari info. Saw your build on grassrootsmotorsports.
Yes to replacing those engine mounts. They are not great. I helped my friend replace the ones in his 11k mile F430. They fell apart once the weight of the engine was off them! Also the trans mount. Unless it still has the new-trans-mount smell, you should replace it.
It was about 105 degrees in the Red Barn today but I can take the heat and I'm staying in this kitchen!
As you know, I like to make a part and see it in real life before I know if I like it. Today was playing with a couple different designs/layouts for the transmission cross bars.
In both of these, there will be a box that connects the bars and bosses in that box will have aluminum plates that drop down and pick up the transmission tab.
I think I like the one that has the bars in front of the trans tab. This would require plates that cantilever off the back. If you look back at the Ferrari mount, it has that same sort of design so I think it'll work just fine. Still TBD but it's nice to see things "in the metal".
And if I get lucky, the bend in that top tube will match the V of the engine! Talk about style points!
Note too, that these bars will form the basic shape of the removable trunk so if you squint real hard, you can see how cool that shape is going to be.
On 3rd thought, maybe it's this version. Better support for the hanger plates and a nice match to the engine V. The tape approximates the box that'll house the hanger mount bosses.
I’m liking her curvature
I like the lines /flow. Looks like it'll do the job; obvi you need to think about clearance / placement for airboxes, intake piping, filters, etc. Keep the posts coming!
Shock tower bracing seems like a 2 for 1 here.
I would use the straight crossbar.
Any bends in a pipe make is somewhat weaker and prone to more distortion at the bend in the pipe.
Function over form.
My transaxle is moved back (rearward) 2" and I do not have axle issues with stock axles. Except when I broke a worn out CV dropping the clutch.
Here's some stuff for those interested in fab tips and tricks. Well, at least how I do this particular sort of thing:
The rear cross bar ends have to be cut at an angle. I measured the angle with a large protractor and got 25 degrees. The first cut is easy enough - just set the cold saw angle and cut it.
The 2nd cut is the money cut in that it will set the length AND the angle has to be clocked so it's a mirror to the first one.
First, the length: I determined where I wanted the tube to positioned in the chassis and measured between the chassis locations where the rear edge of the bar would land. Since the chassis is getting wider the farther back things go, this is the "long edge" of the tube.
Being sure to have the tape measure at the tip (long part) of the first angle cut, I mark the measured distance on the tube then carefully spin the tube so I have that mark all the way around it.
Then I position the saw's adjustable jaw to serve as a guide for the blade and position the tube with the mark at the edge of that jaw. That's what's shown in the pics. That last one is from under the saw head with the blade set on the tube, just so I can check things are where I want them.
Of course, if you ever mark to cut stuff, you have to play the game of "do I leave the line or cut on the line?" Whatever works for you, just plan, mark and position things accordingly!
The next step is the clocking of the cut:
Hold a digital level fast to the face of the first cut. Simply rotate the tube until the level shows 0.0 degrees and you know the faces will be aligned! Simple, no?
DO BE CAREFUL that you have the tube oriented in the saw so the cuts will be in the proper orientation else you'll have parallel angled ends not mirrored angled ends!!!
I didn't make that mistake on this tube but... Ask me how I know.
BAM! I love it when a plan comes together!
With the tubes (essentially) located, I went after a proof-of-concept hanger. This is how I do things: prove that the measurements are correct with something simple, adjust as needed until it's what it needs to be then make it "for real".
In this case, the for real pieces will start as 1x3 tube that'll get pie cut and welded to pretty much replicate this shape. And the hole will be replaced with a steel boss. It'll be plenty strong and should look pretty neat, too.
And that gap at the back, between the bracket and the rear tube? That's due to the fact that the jack contraption I use doesn't hold the drive train perfectly vertical and that slight tip is causing things to not quite fit. Plus, that tube is trying to fall out of position and is sorta being held in place by that piece of scrap there behind it. Hey, I do what I have to...
I also may need to trim the rear tube to get it into its happy place - it has to end up flush to the chassis on both sides and smack in the notches of the final hanger brackets.
The good news is that I can move the drive train fore/aft a little, if needed, with no risk of anything colliding.
I'm calling this a pretty productive day.
Probably should have started with this: Here's the final design I landed on, exact cross tube location aside. Pardon my MS Paint hackery.
It's simple and strong, leaves room for a reasonably sized trunk and, most importantly, gives @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete his straight V!
The things I do for you guys...
I appreciate the rust colored brush lines lol… it shows a solid effort
Personally though, I think it’s too much for the single point transmission mount. Consider the 996/997 cars, a simple hanger is all you need. The engine mounts are what stabilize the engine from torque twist.
Well, I definitely didn’t mean to infer that your direction is wrong. I just think it’s serious overkill. And a fourth mount means you need even less from the top rubber mount. Your un-gusseted plate attachments will be the weakest joint and even that mock up looks stout as whiskey in a plastic bottle lol!
If I were doing this, I would not have cut the trunk floor out. I would have cut a small hole in it and made a raised box for the trans mount, adding doublers to the trunk floor where needed. I realize I would have had to cut a relief in the rear wall for the oil tank, but the rest would still be there.
And it would still be able to store the targa top in the trunk.
Proving yet again that I'm all ears when it comes to build ideas, the comments from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 got me thinking about other transmission mount designs. I have to admit, while that cross bars design is functional, it really isn't that attractive. And as I already mentioned, I'm after function AND form. So...
This is what happened today.
No, it's not final. And I'm not going to attempt to explain what's still planned for the overall design, other than to say, I'm liking it better, so far.
It's loads simpler and the beam sets the planes for a couple of the trunk panels. I'm also liking the extended shape of the suspension console that ties to the beam, complete with stampings to match the factory panel. I may extend them all the way along the shape of the spreader plates. TBD.
The four holes on each side of the hanger echo the cylinder count - but those may give way to something different... So, as usual for this stage of my approach, still a way to go.
That is a very clean look! And as long as the cardboard doesn’t get wet, it should hold up beautifully!
Seriously though, I see where you’re going here and I think it will really come together well.
If you're curious why I may appear overly concerned about mounting the drive train, here's a vid about replacing the motor mounts in the 360. What's awesome is that he videoed before and after to show the improvement after replacing the mount.
There's a nice before/after comparo that runs from 15:41 - 15:53.
But even with the new mounts that thing sure dances around. And that engine note!
Maybe that is why I like the pre 1990 cars so much better.
For that rectangular crossbar this would look much better than a bunch of holes/tube collecting dust and add some strenght.
While I do like the beam, it's maybe too industrial looking? So here's the newest revision - and it's my current favorite.
With that curved tube, when it's parked next to my LS build, that will let folks know they're related.
Next it was on to working out the hanger bracket dimensions. There will be a couple 1.5 x 1 rectangular tubes that'll fill the open section in between the cross bars and provide a weld surface for the entire inner edge of the hanger bracket. The actual hanger will be made from 1x3 tube with an adjustable fastening system to locate and secure the transmission mount tab.
Last pic is a mock up of some of the other structure, modded to support this tubular design.
With the curved tube and the boxing at the ends, I think I can get away with no support tubes from the shock towers.
I wanted a break from the transmission mount so I disected one of the Ferrari headers. They didn't fit but I was hoping that, maybe, if I got rid of the heat shielding, I might be able to squeeze them in. Nope...
This means aftermarket headers likely won't fit either, so custom headers it will be.
Essentially, I'll copy the factory design but move the "bundle of snakes" part forward about 3-4 inches. There's plenty of room at that point, as you can see.
I'll cut off and reuse the header flange section as it's intricately shaped. Leveraging the factory part will save a bunch of time/money.
I spent some time on the phone with Martin discussing the header interference issue. We kicked around a few ideas until he made one of those "duh, why didn't I think of that?" suggestions. A few minutes later and: problem solved!
Before I post any pics, would any of you like to guess?
Be careful because if you come up with the solution (or maybe a better one?!), I'll be calling you all the time to help me with things like this!
And btw, these headers are being used to prove out what'll work. Once that's decided, I'll either refurb these and do things like remove the pre-cat (that 4" diameter section between the collector and the reducer) and get them refinished or start over with an aftermarket set, now that I know what I need to do to fit them.
Why do the headers have to sweep forward at all?
Cut off flanges and reverse them .
Heat and bend to fit? Or a big hammer. Just kidding about the hammer.
A good ole dent.
Since you’re not playing by euro 4 emissions on this, why not move the cat further down stream so you can get rid of some bulk and reduce heat in the bay?
Many interesting guesses and suggestions but here's Martin's comment:
"Well, if all you need to do is move everything forward, why not just cut off the flange, move each tube forward by one cylinder and remake the one tube?"
Other than his use of the word "just", he nailed it!
Note, this is just tack/hack welded as proof of concept. But the interesting thing is that, you can see the there's plenty of room to get that front cylinder tube back to the collector while keeping appropriate length.
With this no longer an unknown, I can purchase a set of aftermarket headers knowing I can make them work.
I like simple solutions loooks good in there!!
That Martin…pretty crafty.
Very nice and practical.
The build may be seeing a major change. I'm looking into what it'll take to work up an adapter to get the Ferrari engine mated to a Boxster S trans. I got a great deal on a G86-20 and in putting together a pro/con list, the Boxster trans comes out ahead by a fair bit.
Things like off the shelf axles, no need for limiting straps, far lower costs, shifters that are actually available (!)...
It won't be a simple adapter in that, the Ferrari trans houses the dry sump tank and the low pressure oil return is in the lower right side of the engine block. That's it, circled in the pic below. This means the adapter has to have account for that passage and accommodate an oil line fitting that pokes out the side.
Oh, and like @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 Clay, I have to make room for a starter on the trans side of things.
So, this will delay things a bit and I may end up going back to the Ferrari trans. Just need to see what's what before committing to the chassis fab.
Another example of "if were easy, everyone would be doing it."
Something rather poetic about a 914/6 oil tank feeding a Ferrari V8, if it can be done and is sufficient…
Ooh, all inputs very interesting. Including 72 oil door (lol) as well as Chris's thoughts above.
Am I at 50/50? Not yet. But tell me this: Would there be a chance that the Ferrari box would have its diff peeking out from the rear, a la 288 GTO?
A pro/con list you say? So it seems you're applying rational logic to the act of stuffing a modern(ish) Ferrari V8 into a 50 year old sports car that'll need rampantly extensive metal & chassis modifications to accommodate it?
Pls, tell me more about your rational, logical approach.
PS. I jest, of course. And, please keep the Ferrari transmission and definitely that funky oil container/ air separator. Someone went to the trouble of "clocking" the Ferrari logo (on the cap) in the correct orientation to the rear of the car when it is fully hand tight; how could you not honor that obsessive detail? ;-)
PPS. Genius approach on the headers BTW
In all these years I never realized the similarity of our 914 6s to '72 911s with the oil
tank in front of the rear wheel !
Our 6s could have had the oil fill door on the drivers rear quarter.
On the other hand.....our gas filler under the hood allows the entire car to be free of
This thread and the creative work it requires is very cool.
Great to see.
Thank you for allowing us to watch the process.
My vote is for the Ferrari gearbox, no need for a third party to get involved in this.
Amazing project, wonderful daily entertainment for the readers!
No screwing around here! Some of you may be aware of Home Built by Jeff's Alfarrari build on YouTube. He's putting a 360 engine in the front of a vintage Alfa. He got wind of my build and I've been communicating with him. He was kind enough to share his adapter file! This is the Ferrari side of things, including the oil return passage.
Ignore the other side as it's for a Subbie BRZ trans (!).
Anyway, this get's me a good way down the "what'll it take" road. And let me say it again:
I haven't decided which trans I'll use. But knowledge is power and I'll know more, regardless.
Very cool project. Some the challenges with adapters are the added length for input shafts and starter depth. I really like the computer rendering. I don't have those skills. But with a tape measure and a router it can be done.
I like that exhaust solution, pretty slick!
$35K for the conversion kit and I think that is for parts only and they must do the install, figure another $10K or so.
The biggest issue I had with my Boxster trans adapter was the flywheel. A 964 uses a pull type clutch.
A Boxster uses a push type clutch. Making an adapter to fit a push type pressure plate to a 964 flywheel took some work. And a 944 turbo racing pressure plate. I would love to find a Boxster flywheel that would bolt to a 964 crankshaft.
The second issue was the starter. Not making a hole, but adding a mount in the right position so the starter would engage without grinding or sticking.
There are pictures in my build thread. I posting from a cell phone and can't get the link.
While I'm pretty good with my 2D CAD program, I've not spent any time in the 3D world. So after playing around with that file, I chose a far faster path and contacted @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=87 . Let me give a HUGE thanks to Mike for jumping right on verifying the file, dimensioning it for me and going the extra mile to locate a Boxster engine file and doing a quick overlay.
Yes, I have all the 3rd D to work out but this is a really big help to get me going.
Let me say it again: Mike - THANKS!! Simply couldn't do it without you.
No problem at all, this is almost like owning a 914 again without the cost or heartache
If I'm going to have any hope of having this running for WCR 2023 , I better get back at it.
My LS car is back on the road so the Ferrari build is back in the Red Barn. Today was spent fine-tuning the drive train location and taking final measurements so design, fab and welding can begin on the trans and engine mounts.
The trans mount cross bars and hanger are almost ready to be welded in - can't hardly wait!
But waiting is sometimes a good thing: Remember how excited I was to see the header in place, "just" moved up one cylinder? Good thing I didn't get too excited. Turns out that with the adjustments I made to get the drive train in optimal position for the axle height, that modded header no longer fit! Everything got lowered by about 3/4" and that was all it took for the header to, once again, foul on the suspension console. What to do? Well, if moving things forward by one cylinder helped the first time, I gambled it'd help again.
And it did. It actually looks better, too. The primary tube bundle nicely fills the area outboard of the front cylinders and I gain even more length for the post-collector exhaust.
In this location, there's more room under the bundle to re-route the two tubes that need to be re-connected to the flange.
As before, the collector still needs to be sliced off and clocked to clear the rear of the cylinder head. But overall? Win-win!
Let's make some parts, eh? Here's the final design for the transmission hangers. One will live on each side of the trans mounting tab. Fabrication is underway!
Let's back up and get a better view of the "two forward" header. As mentioned, it nicely fills that area outboard of the front of the heads but will need re-clocking of that last section where it will join the rest of the exhaust.
That odd fastener sticking out of the collector? I'm told that's an EGT sensor location. Not sure if it was used on euro cars or the Stradale maybe but that's how these headers came to me...
Speaking of the exhaust, even though I can't use the factory muffler, the muffler bracket looks like it can be used. It mounts to the trans but is too long for the 914. A little sectioning (it originally had two of those oval holes in the outside walls - I removed one) and we're all set.
Transmission mounts nearly done, courtesy of Martin, his skills and machine shop. We make a pretty good team: He's got a great eye for design and unmatched fabrication talents - and I've got projects that need those things!
It starts as a 9" length of 1" x 3", .095 wall tube. It's interesting what comes up when moving from "how about we do this?" to actually making the parts. In this case, the design for these hangers changed because as the material was cut away to get the cool tapers on all the different surfaces, the remaining material wouldn't stay in plane during the follow-on machining operations. So the taper on the 3" face had to start farther from the lower hole than originally planned. In the end, no one will know and even I didn't notice until Martin pointed it out to me.
With a bit of luck, the trans mount will be in the chassis in the next couple days!
Wrapping up the wrap-around on the 2nd hanger then they both get a 2" hole and a final tidy up. A couple days of work. Worth the effort just so the hangers end up with a few style points?
Oh, hell yeah!
Test fitting the transmission mount. That bit of paper is just to model the "insert" that will close off the inner area of the hanger tubing. I wanted to see these in the car and determine if they really needed the insert. Yep, they do.
But other than that, I'm super happy with how they turned out! They are LOVELY.
And can I just say: It's so great to be working with Martin again.
As much as I generally like the full mechanical, simple look, I'm not a fan of the gap between the hangers, purposefull though it may be. I cardboarded up a few different cover panels - one that ran side to side of the hangers with a single, large dimple die hole, one that sat on center of the tubes, just between the hangers...
Then this one showed up and I think it's the winner.
It'll be removable, too, which means it could be made of nearly any material.
So clean and so beefy. I like the unadorned look that shows the fabrication detail. A spot where function is beautiful.
As usual for me, we're way far away from 914 content but I assume many of you enjoy this sort of thing.
Here's another look at just how time consuming custom fab can be. These are "just" the transmission mount hangers, as I've come to call them. Look back at what Ferrari used: essentially, just two plates with a break along one edge. These could have been largely the same and that would have taken almost no time to make. But I suspect you all know that simply wouldn't do, because, well, Tygaboy and Style Points!
So, along with all Martin's fancy pie cutting, welding and dressing to get those lovely tapers and a factory-looking edge radius all around the hangers, I asked him to close up the open area of the tube created when that cool shape of an opening was made in the outside wall.
A bit of 18 ga sheet metal trimmed and bent to fit and we have the wall.
That gets clamped in place, tacked all around and trimmed, leaving enough proud of the surface to fuse weld to the outer wall of the hanger.
Both sides all set for fuse welding and final dressing. After that, these lovlies get welded to the cross bars and into the chassis.
All said, there'll be over 20 hours into making these. Call your local fab guy to get an hourly rate and do the math...
Forgetting cost, folks generally have no idea of the time it takes to do one-off stuff like this.
But just look at those things. Works of art.
And I have to say: TOTALLY worth it!!
Gorgeous work, Chris!
I am looking forward to seeing all this when I next travel to the Red Barn.
So very tidy. Well done sir.
BTW, do you have a favorite marking dye and scribe combo? I bought a protractor from eastwood a few months back and it couldn’t even make a dent in sharpie ink on carbon steel lol…
Dykem. Awesome thank you! It’s only in this past year that I’ve been doing the kind of fab projects that made me wish I had some lol. Placing my amazon order right meow.
Also, I was thinking about those brackets and I think you should TIG them onto the tubing and see how it looks if you leave the weld as opposed to grinding smooth. I think a little fab signature might look good there.
TBH, I couldn't give two shits about a F360 engine in a P914. I only follow this thread because I like your approach to fab. You and I think a lot a like with regard to it being more of an art project vs a construction project. That's why I think about things like what welds to show and which ones to smooth. A weld is like hand writing, unique to each person.
"Weld it in time" for the trans mount! But to get the various pieces of the mount in the correct location, we first fit the upper bar: leveled to the car and positioned equally fore/aft on each side. Then, based on a handful of different measurements, located center.
Next, we got the hangers fitted to the upper bar, jacked the drive train into position, bolted the trans to the hangers and after ensuring one side's hanger as in the correct location, tacked it to the bar.
With the first hanger located, the assembly was removed and clamped to the fixture table.
I'd previously measured the desired distance needed between the hangers (trans mount boss + washers) and Martin whipped up a spacer block that we used to locate the 2nd hanger.
Here's the fixturing and one of Martin hard at work with the TIG.
The above mount was then fit back into the chassis and the trans bolted to the hangers.
I then held a large aluminum plate against both tubes and rotated the lower tube until the plate would not rock at all. This ensures the curved tube is completely in plane with the upper bar.
With that done, the lower tube was tacked to the hangers, the complete assembly pulled out and returned to the fixture table.
The spacer block went back in and all joints were welded. I welded parts of the underside (the side you're seeing here) and asked that Martin take care of all welds in areas that will be easily seen. My welding skills are really coming along and much as I "want to do it all", when I have access to someone as skilled as Martin, it makes sense to me that I leverage the opportunity.
So there it is. After a ton of head scratching and numerous design changes, the car has its first "Ferrari specific" mod all but completed. There are a couple inches of welding left to do on the underside of the cross bars at the chassis but things are plenty strong to safely work on the car.
Major milestone, for sure.
That looks very cool Chris.
Very clean. Will the truncated trunk hide this handiwork?
Very nice work!
"The Little Engine That Could"
Oh man that came out great. Definitely worth the effort to go back and forth to the fixture table, the welds are gorgeous!
Nice work. Great table!
With the trans mount essentially done, it's time to focus on the engine mounts.
At this point, the design has come full circle: all elements of the engine mount have to be removable. Why? Glad you asked! If the aren't, I have to remove the headers to install/remove the drivetrain. I'd rather not have to do that so removable things shall be.
As usual, I need to see things in real life to develop a better understanding of what's what and where so today's effort was to mock up a rough guestimate of the "intermediate" assembly and see how things might fit.
This mock up is just that: not the real dimensional material, barely triagulated, etc. Again, it's just to help me work though design and fitment. Anyway...
The fire wall end of things is pretty straight forward: there will be a set of tabs on the fire wall that will receive a pair of tubes. One tube will run to the front area of the mount, one to the outside.
The other end will have one, possibly two, tubes: for sure, one will run to a spot high on the long and if there are two, the other will run to a lower spot on the long.
In noodling on all this with Martin, we both came to the conclusion that we should chuck the Ferrari headers and build a set from scratch as that'll allow us to get things right where we want them without having to work around a less than optimal situation.
Martin's latest sketch of the removable motor mount. This after seeing what I'd mocked up and chatting for a bit about options.
Working with him is so much fun. We work together really well: Neither if us has much ego around our ideas, there's no holding back on constructive critisism, we're both easily able to say "Oh yeah, I shoulda thought of that."
Best of all, he's got a great eye for style points!
Regarding mount stiffness for a cantilevered mount:
If you can find any rate information on the engine mount from Ferrari or aftermarket parts, the attaching structure should be 10x the mount stiffness as a rule of thumb.
You could even set up a test rig to measure the mount yourself to get a close approximation the rate if you had the inclination.
That stiffness ratio between the engine mount and the structure will ensure you get proper isolation from the mount and avoid low frequency driveline bounce modes that will lead to a very unpleasant ride. You want to avoid ending up with a engine vertical bounce mode that is in the 4-6Hz range which will interact with the natural frequency of the human body (seated).
Enjoy watching the progress - great build thread.
A 1" crossbar is sufficient, it's not structural, it just needs to tie both sides together to stop flex. It would also give you a rear mounting point for the skid plate.
If you think of the assembly as a cradle, I think you will end up with an easy solution.
After another day of design conversation and trying to work out the "best" mount, we came up with this concept. That cross bar / ladder fits into the gap I pointed out in the pic above.
No, it's not to scale, the implied dimensions and angles aren't correct, etc. But it does seem to check all the boxes that we've identified need checking.
And it's likely overkill, which is just what I'm looking for.
I'm thinking it'll be 1.5", .095 wall DOM.
One thing that may change is going to a single tube to connect the side sections vs. the ladder struture you see here.
The rear section is there to pick up that lower trans mount. Based on my research, and given how soft the trans and motor mount rubber components are, that small link/mount is critical to preventing fore/aft movement of the entire drive train. It's got to be accounted for.
What's not shown is how that rear section will tip up and tie into the back of the chassis.
On to fab and fitment!
Chris, hoping that your client has some good "Comeback remarks" to all of the Ferrari peeps that ask him why
When I dropped the flat fan engine in my black six/gt tribute...the 935 guys were hunting me down with their checkbooks: "Hey we can put that fan to good work"
Keep up your amazing skills Chris !
Proof of concept of the "center" tab bracket. This is just a first effort based on a card board template and while I got pretty close, I have a couple changes to make to get a better fit. Plus the final version of all the tabs will be cut from 3/16" plate.
The cradle's upper bar will bolt to the outside of this where another tab will be, while the lower bar bolts to the inside of this with its other tab farther inboard. So, yes, the cradle walls will be slightly angled.
And that ramp that heads forward under the floor will help establish the front section of the under-drive train skid plate/flat floor. I hope to be able to sneak tunnels on both sides with a difusser at the rear.
Here's the CAD rear view of the cradle geometry showing the 1.25" tubing and a 1" OD bung that'll bolt to the above mentioned set of tabs.
Seeing yesterday what you are doing with the cradle and bracket, I do have some thoughts. Yes, there is one in every crowd. Cut (2) pieces of 1.25 tubing, 1” long. Fish eye one of the ends of the 1” tubing on both pieces. Weld the fish eye end to the ends of your cradle. Weld a nut onto the other end of the 1” piece of tubing. Run a bolt through your bracket into the nut welded onto the short tubing to secure your cradle the the bracket. BTW: awesome build!
Wow- that is a very nice fit.
And here are the final parts in 7 ga (3/16"), fitted with approximate width bungs, just to get a look at whereabouts everything will be positioned.
The undersides of the lower cradle tubes will serve as the location for the drive train skid plate.
Very nice! Now I understand Martin's sketch of the removable mount. Does the third leg of the mount go to the long or is the exhaust the way?
When "mere" engine mounts are prettier than whole cars…
Nothing like having the proper tools available. Super nice result!
The outer edges of that excess material will be trimmed back and the remaining will be wrapped around the bung ahead of welding.
Looking forward to some new pictures on this after 2 weeks of no World.
You'd think I'd have made a ton of progress in the past couple weeks. Well, if you count design changes, I did!
Remember, this cradle will be attached to the drivetrain and the entire set up then offered up to the chassis. So, after seeing the "vertical tabs" model mocked into the chassis, I realized the odds of being able to get all of the mounting bungs to slip into those slots, at the same time, at the necessary angle, on my contraption jack set up would be, um, "low".
Why don't I think these things through on paper before I make parts?
Look at the how things mount in the 914. In the 911. All the mounts are horizontally oriented. I am such a doofus sometimes. OK, many times...
The good news is all I had to do was rotate the cradle tubes 90 degrees, update the fire wall tab system to account for a horizontal orientation and cut the new parts. With that done I could fixture up the cradle tubes and get things tacked.
Here are a few pics of the fixture set up being used to build each cradle side, then to position the cross bar. Again, having this table is like cheating.
And here's the horizontal tab set. One thing I did account for is that the fire wall isn't necessarily 90 degress to the chassis. To account for that, I used a tab/slot approach with the tabs and mounting plates so that once the tabs are tight against the fire wall and the cradle is mocked into position, the mounting plates have enough slop that they can rotate to their "happy place" within the tabs and self-locate to the exact position needed.
See? Sometimes I'm all over a good approach!
Note, too, that I went after the edges of the mounting tabs with my little metal router. It makes for a really nicely finished part.
Cradle mocked in place, successfully demonstrating that all the measuring was accurate. I have the needed clearance at the alternator and the cross bar sits just where I wanted it, with plenty of clearance to the drivetrain.
Next, it was on to the engine mount brackets. Here's the current design.
What's neat is that you can cut the holes with a bit over 180 degrees remaining and "snap" the piece over the tube. It really helps simplify mocking it into position as it pretty much holds itself in place.
There will be one of these plates on each side of the mount with a vertical plate between them.
Note that I routered the opening but didn't yet get to the outside edges.
The last piece of the cradle puzzle is the rear mount. There will be a mounting point coming off the suspension console that picks up a mount at the end of the cradle, essentially in line with the cross bar, sorta like this 1st grader's drawing.
This is the support bracket design for the cradle's side of the rear mount. That dimensioned surface will support the mounting plate that'll be picked up by the bracket on the suspention console.
All this will be made from 7 ga plate and, like the rest of the cradle mount, will use 14mm fasteners. Say it with me:
"That's not going anywhere!"
Playing with ideas for the rear cradle mount. The side plates would be .125" with a 7 ga plate at the base for the fastener.
The upper shape isn't final as I think I want to box it all in, leaving access for the trailing arm pivot bolt.
As usual, we'll see.
The cradle is still missing a number of parts but it's far enough along to start working out and prepping the locations for each fire wall tab.
This pic gives a good sense of the cradle's overall design/fit. Note the ends of the tubes are yet to be trimmed to length. And a threaded bung will be welded in at the end of each tube. The lower ones will serve as mounting points for the skid plate and the uppers have no current plan. No telling if they'll ever be used but I don't want to look back and wish I had another mounting point.
I like the idea of using the suspension pickups to mount the cradle. It accomplishes two things in one fix. It supports the cradle, and ties the rear suspension pickups together for more structural rigidity.
Today was cutting components for the cradle side of the cradle-to-console mount.
The original plan called for carrying the 1x3 up between each side's tubes but I think I prefer this design.
That said, when I first test fit the side pieces, it struck me that they could use a brace to help stabilize them and add more "anti-rack" strength so I added that connector plate between them.
I'll probably make a couple minor design tweaks to a couple of the pieces but this is essentially it for these mounts.
Note that all these parts are fresh off the plasma table and look pretty rough. I'll hit all the edges with the metal router and they'll look way better and have a much more finished look.
On to the console side of things!
Is this the end of some of my "DIY" processes? Are my plasma table's days numbered?
I can get two of these from SendCutSend for under $45 delivered. Bent and ready to go. Laser cut so better quality than what I can get on my table.
Yours? Nah. But it does get to be a tougher sell for anyone who hasn't already spent the capital...
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1659 I agree that my sunk costs are a consideration but it really is something to think about. The table takes up a lot of space, too, which is a major contributor to my thinking of selling. The other solution I'm considering is adding on to the Red Barn so I end up with a "dirty room" for the plasma table and other cutting / grinding operations. That'd be the best of all worlds.
And on the "bought vs built" front, I'm pretty confident I'll find plenty of things to do that will still qualify as "built"!
I 100% vote for the "dirty" room add-on if you can do it.
There's a lot of value in the love you put into the details, Chris.
Get the temptation, and would probably go that way myself (ok, I know I would), but not sure it's the right path for you. The details like these are what make your builds IMO.
Just two cents…
I doubt the bends would be precise enough to fit like you planned.
Plus you still have to change your mind one more time....
Well, I'd already worked up the design and purchased the material so figured I may as well move forward with a weld-together mount.
The plasma table really does make quick work of all this and to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 Phil's comment, I did update the design, if you can imagine that... I opted to widen the mount and have the center brace sit inside the side plates vs on their edges. This required shortening them a bit and reshaping the lightening holes.
Then I treated all the edges (that won't be welded) to some style points, courtesy of the metal router.
And I agree, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete, it is more satisfying to look at things and say "I designed AND made that".
Time for some
Love the metal router edges.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 Chris for the win! It seems you guys know me better than I know myself.
After looking at the mounts for a bit longer, it struck me they looked somehow incomplete. So another revision later and I have what I think is a more functional, stronger design. Tying the cross bar to the mount provides better support at that corner.
But the real question is, am I really done changing things?
I knew something better was coming.
I feel the center brace could be more interesting than 2 triangles. Thinking a nod to Ferrari since that's its job.
And that's the motor mount components set to go. With that done, all needed pieces are ready (minus the metal routing) and I just had to do a quick mock up of one side and get a look at the overall vibe of the cradle.
Yep, that'll do!
But that anti-rack brace wasn't doing it for me so I took a swing at a couple alternate designs. Note that I made these taller so they now reach from the upper tube to the cross bar.
Style-wise, I'm leaning toward the "circle in the middle" design as it echos the motor mount's big hole.
And before anyone gets too worked up about any of this, remember: once everything is installed, the entire cradle is essentially blocked from view.
But yes, we'll all know it's there...
Do you suddenly wake up in the middle of the night realizing you've missed something on your build?
Last night, around 2AM, I wake up thinking: "Wait a second, if the firewall tabs wrap under the floor, I need a spreader plate under there! Bad idea to simply weld 7ga plate to a single layer of 18 ga!"
A quick measure and cut (and a bit of plug welding yet to go) and that's problem solved. Critical thinkers will also note this changed the dimensions of the center and inner fire wall tabs. Nothing a bit of band saw and sanding couldn't quickly address.
And speaking of band saws, here's one for the tool whores:
Swag Offroad's portable band saw stand. This. Thing. ROCKS! Highly recommended!
It stores under a bench, is easily carried to wherever it's needed and it cuts like butta'!
If you're considering a band saw, take a look at these. They make models for virtually any portable band saw, from HF on up, cordless and wired. Did I say highly recommended?
So, after all that, here's a Ferrari 360 engine cradle kit. Some welding still to go, but everything is essentially ready, including all edges routered and final hardware.
With any sort of luck, this will get done and the drive train will be mounted in the car in the next couple of days.
And here's one for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete. When I was working out the hood vents for the LS car, Pete noted in the background of one of the pics was a stack of different vents that represented my "rejected designs". It was yet another example of how I need to make something and look at it before I can determine if I like it, that it'll work, etc.
Well, I'm nothing if not consistent! Rather than make Pete have to look for them, I went ahead and got a pic of the "well, that's not gonna work!"/ rejected design parts from this engine cradle effort.
Prolly I need to keep my plasma table, eh?
Looks so good Chris!
From that scrap pile I can see an Alexander Calder mobile in the making.
You should make this a "Kit" for all of those folks who do a "Ferrari 360" engine swap in the future.
In all seriousness....again...just amazing work!
Final design (only took four tries! ) for what I've taken to calling the "console lower plate". Well, final less the update I made to the shape of the weep hole clearance. It fits nicely.
Then it was on to versioning the side plates. (can I make a verb out of "version"? )
I'm using thin gauge material to work out the final shape in CAD, then it'll get made in 10 ga, with the exception of the actual mounting plate for the fastener - that'll be 7 ga, like the cradle's mounts.
You can see the idea is to get a plate that runs from the top of the long and is gradually getting more proud of the console as it descends. This plate will be plug and stitch welded to the console.
There will be a matching-ish plate of the console's front side and I'll add a plate between the two side plates, boxing everything over the console. Boxes being super strong.
Once completed, it should look nice, not protrude into the space I need for the header/collector and be nicely over-built.
I bought one of those SWAG mini-bandsaw setups last year. I love it, too! But I still drool over your plasma cutting setup...
I hope your exhaust manifolds clear!
Today was getting the cradle's rear mount components all fit and tacked in. It's far enough along as an assembly that it can now be used to position the fire wall tabs. That's on the docket for tomorrow.
Chris - something to think about: will you still be able to get a socket/spanner on the inner axle pivot bolt with the engine/headers in place? Might a well placed slot in the console "beard" side braces be prudent?
Trying to think ahead here.... and, stunning work thus far!
That is the perfect Ferrari to 914 engine mount! It seems so obvious now!
Action photo! The cradle's lower bars hang below the chassis so to minimize chance of the fastener snagging, I opted to run a flat head allen - and that requires a 90 degree counter sink. A bit of time spent locating and leveling in both directions and some "mill as a drill press" and we're all set.
Next was to cut the bars to length and weld in the threaded bungs. Martin broke out his NHRA rule book experience and mentioned that whenever there was a plug weld, you had to leave a bit of the inner material visible through the outer material and weld so the tech inspector could validate things met the requirements and safety specs. Like you weren't trying to sneak in thinner wall than is required, etc.
The good news is that I can now officially pass tech and drag race this thing! Street Outlaws/No Prep Kings, here I come!
Major milestone for the cradle: all final welding is complete!
The fire wall tabs are also fit and ready to go. The plan is that tomorrow sees them welded in place.
With that done, I'll be able to complete the design and CAD work to make the suspension console pick up mounts.
Just catching up with this thread. AMAZING work, Chris. Utterly amazing...
Wow- Martin's welds are works of art. The whole cradle is amazing.
OK, let's see just how far away I can take this from 914 content.
WARNING: Potentially boring content alert!!
Whenever making mounts that locate other items using a bolt, it's obvious you want to align all the holes as accurately as possible. In production situations with their plus/minus and variation, alignment is generally accomodated with slots and/or holes with a bit more 'slop' than you'd think was needed. Look at the 914 engine bar's outside mount - there's the vertical bolt and its slop to the hole in the bar, then the bolt's slop to the U-shaped plate that sits on the chassis' mounting plate and the slop between the two bolts to the U-shaped plate and to the chassis mount plate... In all, LOTS of room to move things around so everything can be assembled.
Jokes about how I do things over and over aside (!), I don't have to think about "production" so I get to (have to? ) work with tighter tolerances. In the case of the cradle mounts, I do have clearance between the bolts and everything through which they'll pass. But how to control the available fastener clearance? I don't want to risk the slop all ending up to one side, making things tight on the other side. That'd make assembly lots less fun.
So, to manage that, here's a fabrication best practice: slice up an aluminum can and wrap the fastener and anything it passes through to ensure the fastener is centered in everything! Now you know you've removed any "slop bias" and things will be nicely aligned, come assembly time.
Is this sort of prep tedious and time consuming? Yes, it is. Especially that 1/8" strip for the tab! But also a worthwhile. Particularly if you're a bit OCD, like me.
beautiful fabrication work! Are you going to add any triangulation members or rely completely on moment transferring connections?
OK, I'm a slacker. I had designs on doing a big(ger) deal YouTube channel for this build but that's just not in the cards. So, I'll just start and keep posting the vids I've done. Note these are essentially raw footage so no complaining!
For a while, these'll take you back to previously completed work but maybe you'll enjoy seeing some add'l details on what's gone into this build.
Here's "Day 1":
More about how the sausage is made:
Getting ready to final weld the fire wall tabs. To make it simple to get everything centered, I took a piece of scrap and made up a "centering plate". The center is marked in Sharpie / pointed out with the arrow. This will align with a center mark on the fire wall and set the left/right location.
What about up/down, you ask? The fire wall tabs were designed with with a notch that fits the lip on the lower edge of where the fire wall meets the floor. Those locations were determined by eyeballing where I wanted the bottom of the drive train to end up in relation to that lip.
What a pain. Getting the cradle under the engine while it's on the jack is impossible. I have to jack the engine into place, install the trans mount bolt, put screw jacks under the engine mounts, lower the jack, wrestle the cradle onto the jack/under the engine and jack the cradle up into place. Did I say "what a pain..."?
But the payoff/sighs of relief are real! All the eyeball guestimation measurements worked. Things fit. Thank heavens...
Once the fire wall tabs are tacked in place, I can fab the suspension console-to-cradle mounts. Then once that's done, I can FINALLY, locate the engine mount side and top plates.
But I couldn't resist a test fit to see how I did on this set of eyeball measurements.
Pretty well, it turns out. Again, thankfully.
Something folks may not appreciate is that even though every cradle component was designed in CAD, when it comes to fitting all the parts in the real world, and welding distortion happens as the building progresses, each piece needs to be dry fit and tuned, as needed.
So for all you aspiring comedians, that "PR" doesn't stand for Personal Record, it's "passenger rear", indicating this piece has a particular home.
And here's another "catch you up on the past efforts" vid. Note that I explain a bit about the 914 that all y'all know about. This is for any folks who may follow the build via YouTube and don't necessarily know 914s. Thanks for your understanding.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 Hey Chris, Great update video. Thanks, Michael
Here's the last catch-up video. I'll make one more that brings everything current then start doing a better job of keeping up-to-date video coming.
Nice work and great videos!
Looking great Chris! Need to make my way to the Barn to see what you have been up to first hand.
I need to become more self-sufficient, particularly when it comes to TIG welding. But it's just so hard when Martin is available and does such incredible work. But I did finally man-up and did the welding on the cradle's front cross brace. I'm getting there.
With the cradle all welded up and the fire wall tabs shimmed in place, the assembly gets final fit, leveled and centered, and the mounting plates are tacked to the fire wall tabs. This ensures everything is in the correct orientation and mounts meet dead on with the surfaces they each bolt to.
With that done, everything was removed and the tabs/mounting plates were bench welded. Then it all goes back in, is checked for center and level and the fire wall tabs are FINALLY tacked to the fire wall!
Rememer these aluminum can shims? Well, how'd they work out?
All four mounting bolts slide right through the bungs and the mounting plates with even slop all around. And btw, there's not much of it. I didn't leave much room for error and, thankfully, didn't make one. In all seriousness, the fit is essentially perfect. I couldn't be happier.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=172 Andrew - I thought of you every time I checked the gaps...
Again, I couldn't be happier with how all this fits! Sure, there's a bit of upside down welding to go, but with gaps like that, how hard can that be?
And the final acid test. Here's the cradle, bolted in place - only at the fire wall mounts - "floating" at the back. Yep, that reads dead level.
It was a great day at the Red Barn.
Wow- Inspirational is an understatement. Maybe I'll just have YOU restore the CSL instead of shipping it off?!
Awesome work, I can't wait to hear the exhaust note from this beast, it's going to howl!
Love that rolling bender Chris. You have nice toys . Don't you love how that Chromoly welds? Have you been able bend the .095 45-60 degree w/o any small kinking. Great build as always.
Right side rear engine cradle mount fabbed and tacked in.
While I added that plate on the rear of the suspension console, as I looked at everything, I ended up simply adding an extension to the plating that had been previously added to the front side. I think it makes for what will look more cohesive, once it's all done.
Note that the base mount is 3/16" plate. It has a slight bevel on the underside edge to help in clear a weld on the cradle and this makes it look much thinner than it really is.
Still some trimming/tuning to go, then boxing across the face but this should give a good idea of how it'll all work.
On to the left side - which should go lots quicker, now that the design and approach have been worked out.
Left side in process with console vertical extension rosetted in place and rear plate tacked in postion.
The vertical piece will also be welded to the console on the backside, too.
Yep, the second time was WAY faster. After adding the same small, front plate extension, the cradle was bolted in at the front and at the right rear. I verified level then placed a scrap 3/16" plate on the cradle mount and scribed a line on each of the plates.
Remove the cradle, use a zip wheel to slice off the excess material, bolt the cradle back in, prep the actual 3/16" mount base, verify everything AGAIN and tack everything in place.
So after what seems like forever, the engine cradle mounts are fabbed, fit and (if I do say so myself) FABULOUS!
OK, OK, so I still need to install the engine mounts but, come on! I couldn't be happier.
Awesome build Chris, this will send the precious pasta people to the Nut House when this rolls into Cars und Coffee
What's the opposite of "clamp"? The console's odd angles made it awkward to get the plate firmly pressed against it for rosette welding. Use a clamp backwards and "presto"!
Anyway, it worked a treat and the plate is welded on.
Noodling on ideas for boxing, with this design leading at the moment. The height of the opening allows access to the mounting fastener. Looks kinda cool, too.
Today was me welding on my own, rosetting the spreader plates to the chassis, then the tabs to the spreader plates.
It was extra challenging because it was out of position welding: upside down with the car only about 18" off the ground so I couldn't get my head to an optimal viewing distance from the work area. Such fun! But I got it done.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 Chris - the opposite of "clamp" is "pmalc". I believe its a silent "p".
I'm here to help.
Looks great Chris
Classic example of "why didn't I do this sooner?"
And yes, I'll run with jack stands in there, too. This was the first time all the way up. What's best is that in this position, the drive train slips under the bumper!
Life made a bit simpler.
Game changer for sure.
Today was getting the cradle under the engine and jacking everything into position so I can locate the engine mounting side and main plates on the cradle.
This requires fully suspending the engine in the exact location I want it.
I ended up slinging the front from the the engine hoist while the rear is mounted at the trans. That right there is a Ferrari drive train held where it's gonna end up!
And OMG, the QuickJacks are awesome. All the way up and the motor slides under. Drop it to the low position and it's a perfect height to intall the drive train. So. Much. Better!
Even the motor mount height inside the mount side plates is just where it's supposed to be! Probably only one more day of work and this first phase of "mount the drive train" will be concluded. It's been a long time coming, eh?
How much clearance do you have on the firewall? Those valve covers look awfully close.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 - Andy - There's a bit more room than the tape shows but, yes, there's clearance.
Motor mount "top plates" are trimmed to size and everything is now nicely centered. Ahead of final positioning and welding, I'm going to substitute a metal spacer for the rubber mount so as to eliminate any deflection/out of plane caused by the rubber. This'll guarantee the top plates end up parallel to the cast aluminum engine mount surface.
Chris, will substituting metal for the rubber isolator put more stress on the aluminum mounting ears and possibly cause cracks or failure in the castings?
Today was committing to the drive train position and getting the engine mounts welded to the cradle.
First up was making the above-mentioned spacer set up to substiture for the Ferrari engine mount and serve as the positioning fixture.
I plasma cut a couple appropriate plates and, unbelieveably, found the perfect sized spacer in the scrap pile! Karma, baby!
Here's the spacer set up next to the Ferrari mount. Note, both are upside down.
Next was to get the drive train suspended in the proper location - that was fun...
Once that was set up and all levels and angles were checked and rechecked, the engine mount top plates were tacked to the upper cradle bars. Then the cradle was removed from the car for bench welding.
The first step there was to level the top plates to each other and verifiy them as level to the main cross bar. Yep, everything check out just as
Then the side plates got squared and clamped and all those parts tacked in place.
On to making up some gussets for the side plates and fixturing them for tacking.
The side plate gussets got the edge router treatment, as well as some corner cut outs to help prevent trapping stuff that may find it's way in there.
Yep, style points for stuff no one will ever see. It's how we do things "At the Red Barn".
(What could those quotes possibly imply...?)
Final welding yet to go but here it is: the Ferrari engine cradle.
That was WAY more complicated and WAY more work that I'd ever imagined it would be.
But the good news is this means that tomorrow, the drive train will be fully mounted in the chassis and it'll be on to the next chapter of the build!
DaVinci would approve.
Maybe the car should be named Leonardo.....or at least the drive train cradle.
Beautiful work. You better be careful, Chris- Before you know it you'll have a wait list for folks wanting one of your builds!
I might have missed a page or 2, did you cover the metal router at all? Love the way it looks after you run it on some of the parts.
Every weld matters. Credit where credit is due. This is Martin's work. And you wonder why I can't seem to say "no, I'll weld it..."
Teaser shot: that right there is "in" the car, unsupported by anything but its fasteners.
It's official: The drive train is mounted in the car!
Holy Jebus, that was a ton more complicated than I ever imagined. But we got it done! A major milestone, for sure.
Anyway, may I present what I believe is the world's only 360 914.
The end. Currently my favorite view. I'll remove the paint from the script and the horse, just to make it a bit more visible. But what are the odds this is what peeks out from under the bumper when you mount it in a 914. Like it was made to be, I tell ya'!
Phase 1 done. On to the headers/exhaust.
Art takes time, no way to rush it. Fantastic!
freakin' A! I love it! Fantastic work Chris and Martin!
Congrats Chris! Major milestone indeed!!
freakin' A! I love it! Fantastic work Chris and Martin!
Two words.... Rumble Seat
Wow, just wow....
(subscribed needless to say, thanks for the stimulation)
Amazing job, I was wondering how you mounted the front brackets, now I know. Great job !
I am still concerned with the exhaust since both side supports looks pretty much in the way. It will be 100% custom I assume. Can't wait.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3898 Robert timed his visit perfectly! He stopped by yesterday in time to witness the moment the car was lowered to the ground for the very first time with its drive train mounted. And then he forced us to pose for a pic.
For those of you who've not had the pleasure of meeting him, that's Martin on the right.
And can I just say what a great "partner in crime" he is? Always willing to help but equally important, he spends LOTS of time thinking about what I'm trying to do and offers tons of input (and his wonderfully inspired sketches!). He brings decades of motorsport-related design and fabrication experience to everything he does.
We make a great team in that our skill sets nicely compliment each other - I'm into the CAD/plasma table/modern electronic stuff and he sketches, old school, makes ridiculously cool stuff on a manual lathe and mill and, of course, TIG welds like no other. Yes, I admit it: his TIG welding is my personal form of crack - I want to stop using but I just can't!
But what knowing Martin has REALLY taught me is patience and a "do it right" approach. All of my fabrication skills have greatly improved watching and/or working with him over the years.
I'm proud to call Martin a trusted friend and he's certainly a key contributor to the madness that's always happening at The Red Barn.
Thanks Martin. It simply wouldn't be the same without you!
Man, i hate my brain ...
Looks like the engine/trans is off to the left from the center line of the car.
I really hope that's just due to Roberts photography skills.
PS: And while i'm at it, that engine lid cutout should really follow the contour of the upper intake and not just be square like that.
PPS: Ok, i stop now
Is the goal to show the Raspberry Porrari at RR-VII?
Fantastic work, and very nice stance as-is
It's not a perfect representation, but...
When the trans hanger rubber mount is replaced and centered, it'll cause the drive train to rotate counter-clockwise around the engine mounts and move the trans to the right, nicely centering everything.
Here you can see how asymetric the trans tail cover is. Yes, that means the peek-a-boo view of the script and horse won't be under the center of the bumper. Just more stuff that'll mess with folks when they see the car.
And before you scratch your head too much, note that this part of the trans wasn't visible in the 360 - it was screened in.
OK, so I lied. The drive train isn't fully mounted.
I still need to work up an attachement point for the lower trans "pivot mount". The plan is it will be a separate piece that bolts to the rear of the cradle at the lower threaded bung, runs to a cross bar here where a set of tabs will pick up this mount, then back up the other side to the cradle. Triangulation will be added from this mount's cross bar to the chassis - exact location tbd.
Back to the pivot linkage's mount. Version 1 mock up, just to see what might work. Ideally, this piece will do double duty as a mount for the rear portion of the skid plate and the potential rear diffuser.
Congrats on a HUGE milestone.
Merry, merry from the Red Barn! As we wrap up the year, can I just say how much I appreciate this community and each of its wacky and wonderful members?
And a quick heads up that 2023 will see the launch of "At The Red Barn", a bit more polished effort at a YouTube channel.
I've found I really enjoy the creative process of video-making. As with the other stuff you've seen me try and learn, the early stuff will likely be a bit bumpy, but I expect I'll get better as I go along.
If you've enjoyed my 914 World threads, I'm pretty sure you'll like what you see on At The Red Barn, too.
I'll post a link to the channel as soon as it's operational. Hope to hear from you there!
A safe and happy holiday to you and yours!
Looking forward to checking out the new channel. Need some good fabrication videos to binge on.
How steep is the learning curve on Wondershare Filmora?
Cool! Are you gonna have a live band too? Couldn't hurt your ratings...
Chris, he looks familiar but I really can't place him...plus all you California teens looked alike! You've got some good gear there though...I'm jealous!
OK, "At The Red Barn" is live on YouTube!
Here are links to a quick intro and the first two episodes of the 914 Ferrari build.
Hope you enjoy and if you do, please subscribe, like and share?
Feel free to add comments and ask questions there, too.
Intro to At The Red Barn:
914 Ferrari Episode 1:
914 Ferrari Episode 2:
You can directly embed YouTube videos (3rd topic under HELP):
Since this thread is ahead of the published videos - and I have a number of episodes "in the can" - I've decided to help the video viewers catch up. I'll be publishing everything I have over the next few days.
Here's the next episode and thanks for watching!
Leave the links, as well as the embed, can’t see any videos on iPad….
These vids are great Chris. We have not met but deep respect coming your way for what you are attempting and achieving.
The next episode is now available. Again, I'm playing catch up to bring the videos up to date with this build thread.
At over 20 minutes, this episode is a bit longer than the earlier ones. Reason is because I demo roll bending the trans mount tube. Some folks have asked that I detail more of the "how" so I'm giving it a go with this one. Hope you enjoy.
Provided that it drains really well before you take it off, that seems like a great place for an oil filter. If it doesn't drain well, ...could be messy. The access is great though.
BTW....who's the mystery guitarist?...you can't leave us in suspense.
This build is truly a work of art!!! The design and fabrication is over the top.
Cold saw? Do tell. I missed class that day. Also, you mention that the suspension console ear interferes with the headers but on the previous page it "appears" that it clears. BTW, your "going into detail" makes the subject much more interesting. And that curvy tool could come in handy doing bodywork.
Back to some real work. Today I deceided to make the suspension console/rear cradle mount boxing panel.
First was to final check the cardboard template and remember to add some additional length so each lower leg reaches the bottom of the mount pickup point plate.
Some careful measuring and a bit of CAD work later and I had what I needed to cut the part on the plasma table.
Then it's measure to determine where that break needed to be added using the brake... wait, what?
Maybe a bit hard to tell from the pics but it fits really nicely and gives what I think is a nicely "completed" look of that area. I think I'll make a stamping die and add a relief that copies the look of those stamped into the shock tower sheet metal.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 what kind of a press break do you have? Those bends are super clean!
Wow… I have never seen one of those! How thick of plate can it handle?
Edit: just looked it up. That is some impressive kit and not that expensive for what it can do. Now I see how those bends are so clean!
Latest episode is up. I'm going to try and publish something once a week. Let's see how I do. Hope you enjoy, like and subscribe!
For those who need the direct link: https://youtu.be/kGh5oTXHk0s
Working up the design and components for that "pivoting link", underside/rear transaxle mount. It'll be a removable structure that utilizes these in-line tube connectors. These are generally used in roll cage construction when you want a bar to be removable. In this case, I found some for 1" OD tube - perfect for what I'm up to.
One half will weld to the end of the cradle's lower tube, the other, to the bracket tube. All in line, no wonky tabs.
A bit of lathe work and I have a lighter, custom fit set. I ran out of 1" tube so it'll be next week before I make any more progress.
Today I spent some time giving a go to bead rolling an embossing vs making a stamping die set. Sure is faster! I did mess up one corner but with a little practice, I think I could get a really nice result.
Next try, I'll tweak the settings so it better matches the inset in the shock tower: it needs to be a bit deeper/the "ramp" a bit longer.
And no, you probably won't be able to see much of it once the headers are there... but that's not going to stop me spending three days working up four different versions of it.
So very cool! These are the details that make you just love to look at a build!
The latest madness "At the Red Barn" is available! I'll be dropping an episode every Friday. Your likes, shares, comments and subscribes are always appreciated. Thanks for your support.
Good times yesterday live on the set at the Red Barn. I always learn a couple dozen things from Chris while I’m there. And I walked away with an audience prize – a three-way Deutsch connector that I desperately needed. TY!
Very cool metal tube bending lesson to boot!
Weekly video drop!
A little bit of "how the sausage is made" in this one.
Please like, subscribe (if you haven't) and share and leave a comment letting me know what you think, if you want more/less details, etc.
It looks like the oil filler on top of the tank will hit the trunk lid. Are you going to make an external filler hole, or are you going to shorten the tank?
Well, if they weren't mad yet, this should do it.
Hopefully one of these will clearly be visible beneath the rear bumper.
A guy had me do a Harley circle emblem with "Honda Motorcycles". This may be the first I've said it
But the Cradle needs to be silver or Chromed because it looks "mavelous" peeking out under there
Need a fabrication fix? Want to see the mighty, mighty bender in action? Wonder how I spend all my time? Your wait is over!
I feel like I'm making pretty good progress but there's still a loooooong way to go.
Thanks for watching and please like, subscribe and share?
What I like about the video medium is it provides a glimpse into what really happens as progress is made.
As I've always said: It's about the journey, not the destination. Hope you enjoy.
Let me know what you think?
Some boring ol' pics of progress. Today was working up a set of tabs for the lower trans mount. I'll join them across the top with a plate. Once the skid plate gets attached to that hoop and the struts are final welded and bolted in up top, that lower mount should be all set.
GT40s get a "bundle of snakes". The 914 Ferrari gets a "bowl of spaghetti".
Here's Part I:
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 - Really looking forward to seeing the headers begin to emerge from the pieces.
The next couple video episodes will cover building the entire rear cradle and this trans mount... in excruciating detail. Actually, anyone who likes fabrication stuff will probably enjoy them. Until then, enjoy these teaser pics.
Nice! I’m enjoying the videos, and of course your bonkers vision and workmanship.
First effort with the header modeling kit from Icengine Works.
Each primary is 21" long, same as the factory length of the Ferrari primaries.
I doubt this will be the final design as I'm learning as I go and I think I can go a tidier job. But what a cool way to work out a design!
Header modeling kit? Like Lego tubing? How does that work?
Chris is moving from coolest firewall to coolest engine bay…
The fabrication work on the cradle continues to amaze, and I cannot wait to see the real headers…they're gonna be super cool.
As you folks can tell, the videos lag reality by a week or two. So while I'm actually working out the header design, here's more detail about the lower trans mount/cradle. Enjoy!
And please consider subscribing, if you haven't yet?
Wow sir Chris!
Congrats and hope to see it 100% finished
If you insist on leaving the carbon fiber long cover hanging out on the hood of the blue car, would you consider selling them?
Next version of the header design. Still 21" primary length.
I think this "down and out" is the winning design because there are some serious fit/clearance challenges with the "top exit" model.
All that said, there are some opportunities to tweak this design to improve the aesthetics so I'm moving forward with this approach - at least for now!
A bit more time spent trying to tidy up the layout and still equal length at 21" - but a bit more less "bumpy". A couple likely changes:
- move the collector forward at least an inch to gain more working room / options for where I locate the V-band clamp
- swap the collector location of the two front cylinders. Just to see if it looks/fits better
In any case, I know enough to order the bends and I hope to see headers coming together in metal some time this week.
Cool blue tool!
That’s gonna be a great spot for cats on the collector too.
How long did it take to reconfigure the legos from your first setup to the second? What's it like to work with? Tedious?
Okay, if the final iteration is still fairly equal length and it fits well, go with it. That's a great configuration...
Those are looking really nice Chris.
OK, looks like this is the one I'll execute in stainless. I moved the collector farther back, sorta like where it was in the first "down and out". This version is just a bit more refined.
Equal length at 21".
I'll add the 2.25" to 2.5" transition right at the collector, take the 2.5" past the end of the engine cradle and add the O2 bung, then a 2.5" V-band connector.
Really happy with the ICEngineworks modeling kit. There is NO WAY I could have gotten this without it. And don't overlook the ability to tryout a few different options before committing!
Too bad they don't make a 914 hood vent or firewall modelling kit.
Looks really good Chris!
I think I've landed on a final design. This after only about six tries!
That missing section is a 2" straight. The "one side" kit I bought didn't have enough straights for this particular design, which uses A LOT of straight.
So now all I have to do is get the box of tubes into the same shapes as the header model. I mean, how hard can that be?
This one should make you smile if you:
- enjoy fabrication stuff
- want more proof I really have no plan
- are under the impression I don't have lots to learn
Thanks for watching!
Another excellent video; the cradle looks bitchin. PS- I loved the music selection with the piano.
While watching this I couldn't help but think 20 years or so into the future when an owner tries to take his 914Ferrari to a Ferrari shop for a tranny rebuild and as the tech goes to pull it out he thinks, "damn, whoever built this sure believed in overkill.....but it's gorgeous. I wish they built them this nice nowadays."
With the drive train out, I gave a go to the console boxing plate. This time, via a stamping die set that adds a spot for a removable cover plate that closes off the fastener access area.
I tried a couple new techniques and, as always, now know I can do a tidier job.
- the main stamp area needs to be deeper to better match the factory stamping in the shock tower
- the cover plate stamp needs to be less deep
This means the die set needs to be made of two different thicknesses. Of course it does!
No, you won't be able to see much of this.
Yes, I'll know it's there.
Style points, at any cost!
wow. Really nice fabrication there.
The extra braces won't benefit anything if you don't strengthen the rail to match.
Great fab work!
Great work, Chris!!!!
If me changing my mind and re-doing things bothers you, you may want to skip this one.
I love watching the various iterations as you come to a "final" design.
A few days work to transition things from plastic to stainless steel. A few design changes had to be made because the plastic is able to flex just enough that when things go to metal, positions change enough to cause the dimensions to need tweaking.
But it got done. I'm really happy with how this turned out.
Now to duplicate it, mirror image - which should go quicker now that I know the specs for each piece.
That came out really nice! Run it like that!
That looks amazing Chris.
These look amazing, can't wait to hear them!
Thanks to everyone for the kind words. And sorry, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 Andy, but it's getting a collector and a muffler.
Here's a mock up before each tube is final welded, trimmed to length and the collector added.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster would approve!
You need that on the back window.
Really impressive work on the exhaust
Is that a Burns stainless collector?
I would like to double down on a 2.5” collector exit feeding directly to a high flow cat. That’s the one thing I would change on my 3.7L build for my 996.
Superb! All those iterations must be exhausting.
A bit more progress:
- 2.25"-to-2.5" transition tacked on to collector. It'll get an O2 sensor just after the rear mount of the engine cradle
- two of the tubes final welded with the main weld seam disappeared
This is just a mock up (the collector is just set on, not tacked) to see how things are fitting after welding. I'm sure some minor tweaking will be needed ahead of being "done".
That. Is. Sexy.
It blows my mind the stuff I see Chris fabricate.
All main weld seams sanded. Hopefully, the other side will go much more quickly - this took a lot longer than I'd expected. You'd think I'd have learned by now...
Now to work out a finish. I'm considering white, as a nod to Ferrari's race cars. That or the same finish as my LS car's exhaust. That "titanium" cerakote tone would look pretty killer with the red plenum...
Just beautiful exhaust craftsmanship!
You folks are seeing progress/results ahead of the videos. But here's the latest - it covers the steps involved in getting to the past few pics. Enjoy!
And help a brother out? Like, subscribe and share...
I enjoy watching the process. But, you know....in the back of my mind, I am wondering if Chris is now reimagining the LS headers.......
I can't imagine how you can get into the junction of the 4 pipes to weld it all up! A tight fit. Incredible work Chris. WOW.
Hope to see it first hand this weekend if I can talk my way onto "the set". Perhaps the video production team will take the weekend off.
It's a weekend 2-fer! Here's some panel stamping and fab fun for your Saturday enjoyment:
Do you have a bead roller? it would expidite the process of adding a step to a panel.
Clearance with the stock suspension at full droop. I'll be running shortened shocks to help limit axle angle so this area will have even more room.
O2 sensor will live just past the rear engine cradle mount.
Wouldn't surprise me if your conversion header flows better than the stock Ferrari part.
^ You guys are adding weight.
But don't get Chris looking at F40 engine bays with all that Kevlar lest he consider…914 Firewall 3.0
It really is a beautifully constructed item and you can see it just fine. It will be quite noticeable to anyone who cares to look. I'm very interested to see how the final exhaust system assembly will continue to differ from that of the LS motor...
I worked up a fixture to locate the collector so I could tack it in place
Your work is incredible. Gigantic props. Form AND function.
Is the support for the collector attached to the engine side of the motor mount
or to the chassis side ?
Even your temporary supports are outstanding !
Can't wait to see the rest of the exhaust system and brackets
Here's one about the final steps to getting that first side header completed.
Now Subscribe, you cheap bastards!
Chris, for the Enzo crowd at the Cars + Caffeine
'Reveal'...display a box of Velveeta + bottle of Night Train; you know for the hard core Wine & Cheese crowd
This is just amazing work. For those who have not met Chris, he is one of the most humble, considerate guys you will ever meet. He would literally give you the shirt off his back, I believe. I am always in awe when I stop in at the Red Barn.
Chris those are f1 style merges and the term is the reverse cone as to what you referred to as the pickle if I heard that correctly.
More progress. Just a few tubes left and this side will be set to final weld. Note that the tubes are all cut long at the collector so pay no attention to its fore/aft location. It's positioned to help ensure the tubes stay where I want them. It'll be slid forward to ~1" behind where the collector dummy sits now.
Recommended reading for all 914 owners who work on their own cars...
I’ve mastered the book, now I need to start on the car
Let me check the "How to put a Ferrari 360 Drive Train in Your 914" instruction manual.
"Next, just replace the plastic pieces with stainless." Right-O!
I ran out of 3" radius bends so it'll be a day or so before I can continue. I'm happy with how it's coming along.
One for the fabrication folks.
This is my first go at headers. I've really been working on a "slow down, be planful, think 2-3 moves ahead" mental state when I'm out in the Red Barn. But I was still pretty nervous about getting the cuts and angles to work out without being all gappy. It looks like a lot of the other metal fab I've been doing ends up translating over to this sort of work - I took my time: test fit, tune the piece A LITTLE, test again, repeat. Focus on sneaking up on the desired fit.
This pic highlights the "tricky" tube, mentioned above. It's the one in the middle. It worked out that it wasn't able to be modeled in plastic so it was all eye-balled and hand trimmed.
I have to say, I impressed myself on this project. No, not perfect. I learned a TON and could immediately do a better job were I to redo things but the errors are likely never going to be noticed without me pointing them out. I'm calling this a success.
Get that furick cup! You’ll love it! Weldmonger.com is run by Jody of welding tips and tricks on youtube. (I love his videos)
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17932 - I have a gas lens set up. I went back to the regular set up to force me to improve my skills and be sure I wasn't just masking bad habits with the fancy stuff.
Yes, I watch Jody's stuff. And The Fabrication Series and Pacific Arc Tig Welding. Super helpful and between the three of them, and practice, I'm getting there...
I should've guessed you were a masochist based on your project choices. But, I'd offer that while I agree skills are important, the quality of the product is still the end goal. And if a better tool helps me achieve that end, I'm going with the good stuff. I welded with the old pinkies of every shape and variety the whole time I worked as a welder through my pre-USAF life. But if these furicks had existed then, I would've had one in a heart beat.
Frankly, for being such a tool hound, I'm surprised at your resistance to the suggestion!
Another vote for Furik cup- pricy as can be but they have their place when you need big shielded area and lots of electrode protrusion.
I love my BBW.
Having said that - your progress has been amazing on a very difficult part.
For those who may care to understand why I'm approaching the welding the way I am, start at 10:35 and watch for about 8 mins. This is what motivated me to focus on basic skills ahead of upgrading the consumables.
Here's the set up I'm using: air cooled #17 torch, gas lens with a #8 cup. And there's the first tube done - the upper weld filed and sanded, the lower weld wire brushed.
So, first off, I’ve gathered from your videos that you’re excessively self critical… unfounded if you ask me.
Second, your welds are quality.
Third, that setup is not “basic”. That’s what I would use if I was cup walking an in-position large diameter stainless or inconel flange back in the day.
Fourth, either you buy the cup or I’m mailing you one… someone here will help me make that happen.
That is all.
Why didn't you dress and "disappear" the second weld joint?
I think it looks great. That tig is cool, my wire feed welds are train wreckish at best most of the time.
The best product Furick makes is the angled collet. For you that are welders by trade you will know how much that benefits the tightness of the tungsten in multiple heat cycles.
You purged it so odds are with you.
2nd side header gets done! Well, almost. And yes, I'm battling a strong desire to start over, knowing I could do a much better job. But I'm not going to. At least not right now...
If you do nothing else, watch from 13:40 - 13:50.
(PS- Alien is still a movie that scares the bejesus out of me....)
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892 Your pressure was too much. I caved and ordered a set of Furik stuff. I'm such a conformist...
On another important front, I have appointments this coming week with two different tuners to talk ECU selection.
One that's in contention is the new ECU Master Pro series. The big add is they now support dual drive-by-wire throttle bodies - a requirement for the 360. I've been really happy with their PMU and ECU Master seem to be making inroads with the motorsport crowd as a budget-friendly option to the MoTec and Haltec product lines. We shall see.
Conformist lol… that joke was so dry I need to go get a drink!
You’ll love it, I promise. The #12 has become my go to. I can do 25 cfh on the flow in just about every situation, up to 1.5x cup diameter stick out.
Watched your video before getting back on the sway bar configuration struggle bus this afternoon.
Your headers remind me of an X-29!
2nd side all welded, along with a rear view.
This was quite the learning experience. My TIG skills improved an order of magnitude - maybe more.
Once I get the Furik stuff, I'm sure to be the next Instagram porn welder/influencer, right @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 ?
Now to get the drive train back in the chassis and work out the rest of the exhaust.
Plans include leveraging the Ferrari muffler by-pass and trigger it via the ECU as well as having a "Sport Mode" button, just for Cars & Coffee!
Haha! No, you have to practice ridiculously close up photos at a 30 degree angle using 1/3 framing and portrait mode. And you can’t take pictures of actual parts with a purpose. Only pointless practice objects with no use in the real world.
So, basically, you can’t work on the Porarri anymore.
Back to the project at hand, you nailed it on the header design. I understand the desire to improve execution, but I don’t think a better lay out is possible.
The symmetry and common design themes will take this to a whole new level!
Watched your latest video, very nice!
Drive train back in with both headers. They are pretty well hidden so they look better in real life where you can move around to get a look at them. But everything fits. On to working out the rest of the exhaust.
That’s just right
Should have made the headers come up and out like an old drag boat so everyone could see them. haha
All this work on the exhaust had me ignoring the other end of the system. So... I found a damaged 360 intake manifold at a sorta local exotic car recycler.
Having a spare set up enables me to try out some modifications I'm considering while preserving a standard intake. If my ideas work, I can always sell the factory one.
First step was to anneal the area to soften the aluminum ahead of moving the dented area back into position. That's why the burned look.
Then it was: damage removed, cracks ground out, patch piece made and initial metal finishing underway. That area of weld yet to be addressed was a low spot that revealed itself during the filing process.
The lip at the mounting surface will be the trickiest. The damaged area is at the front of the engine so not the most visible area, but we'll see just how invisible the repair can be.
It'll be wrinkle finished so that'll help hide any minor flaws.
Please, please include pictures of the interior of the plenum, both the air horns and the top section.
I've wanted to see the insides of that intake set up from the start.
I'm especially interested in the cross tubes near the air horns.
Thank you! I haven't taken the time to go all the way through this thread and probably should have.
Variable intake length started in the late 80s and the "normal" path is long narrow tract below 60% of the RPM range and big, short tracts above that point.
Making the runners super long was an April Fool's joke for Holley but...
It made a LS based engine into a diesel.
It was done as a joke but running it on a dyno provided really good data.
Those "Rat Fink" cartoons actually had a basis in reality.
I'd love to know the length of and diameter at both ends of the high-speed sections.
That Ferrari has far more taper than most and I'd love those numbers if possible.
It's a bit creepy but...
I want to fondle your intake
The throttle bodies need to be tipped down to get them to end up under the height of the trunk lid. First step is to slice off the mounting flanges. This in prep for welding on a bit of curved tube. The flanges will then be welded to the end of the newly added tubes.
Shuffling cars so I can work on the LS build while I wait for some parts for the Ferrari car.
This is the first time it's been outside since the drive train swap. Note the intake turn-downs won't be that severe - they'll be maybe about 45 degrees with just a bit of straight before the throttle bodies. But it'll look mostly like this.
It'll sit a bit lower, too.
Too cool for school....
BACKGROUND: Martin, my buddy and shop co-conspirator went to art school. He worked in a foundry. He made jewelery. He designed and fabricated pro-stock drag racing motorcycle chassis. He worked as a motorsports fabricator. He restores 1/24 scale slot cars (where his driver now has a 5 o'clock shadow!)
He does incredible work. Actually, "incredible" doesn't do justice to his work. It's ridiculous how nice it is.
So, when he said, "Would you also like me to dress the repair area?" Ummm... yes, please?
The pics speak for themselves.
Martin provided the pic with the tools to show the various implements he used to finish the repair. I'm beyond fortunate to have him on the team.
Like it was never broken.
Only ONE problem...
Now, you have to re-create the red wrinkle finish to the same level of perfection!
Wouldn't want Martin to show you up would you?
I believe that is the single cleanest cast aluminum repair I've ever seen.
Now, I'm envious of both your water-jet and your friend.
Both of you...
Saw this ad on FB marketplace and thought of you…
Yep, Maserati would be on my list to try it it had flat plane V8 just for the cool sound. But it has the standard lay out so no better than V8 Mustang or Camaro
Got the throttle body (TB) "turn-downs" tacked on. These are 3.125 aluminum tubes typically used in boosted applications. Yes, they are WAAAAAY too long and will be trimmed back so the TBs angle downward and head under the trunk skin.
The factory set up has the TBs splayed outward a bit. Style-wise, I saw that as a bit out of place on the 914 so these are set to head straight back off the plenum.
With the turn-downs in place, I couldn't resist playing with some "what might this sorta look like?" mock up.
Yes, a trunk will be sactificed. Such is the "cost of cool". (Hmmm, that might have to go on a t-shirt!)
LOTS of things to work out, for sure. But I think I can come up with something I'll like!
Sharp eyes may have noticed the 914 Ferrari car is sitting where the fixture table used to be.
The past week or so was dedicated to a Spring Cleaning at Red Barn. Much crap was tossed, low use tools and storage sold or consolidated. Fab now happpens mostly in the same area on the far side of the shop.
The end result is I can now fit - and work on - two cars at the same time! Seriously, it feels like I doubled the size of the shop.
Those of you coming to the Luft BBQ will experience it for yourselves!
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 Wow- you don't mess around when you do spring cleaning. That looks very nice. Looking forward to seeing you at Luftgekuhlt and then follow you back to your place for some good food and conversation.
Airbox…….time to play with carbon again!
Chris.... you are turning that Pink Butterfly into a DRAGON!
Then there's these. Available with a DBW actuator, which is what I'd do.
It would mean I could fit everything under stock body work, which would be kinda cool - the only tell would be the trans peeking out under the bumper. Plus, I'd have all the "trunk" space, which would otherwise be partially occupied by the intake tract and air cleaners.
I'm communicating with the company to get all the details. We'll see.
Would this mean you might have to re-do something?
Do like the factory plenum/throttle, but could not believe how heavy it was.
People at Porsche would be fired.
Could not get over just how low the Italian V8 looked in a 914 without it.
might just be me but I love the Ferrari on the intakes sticking thru the deck lid. Leaves no question of what is in the engine bay and highlights the uniqueness. With ITB's could be anything from a Porsche/Chevy/Ford/Dodge/Subaru/Toyota/Honda swap, so not nearly as interesting with out a detailed conversation.
In that mind set I am building a ITB system for my -6 conversion that uses 996 manifolds over ITB's. It will be clear that its a Porsche engine but those in the know will scratch there heads with water cooled intake manifolds and air cooled fan on the engine.
Latest update video available for your entertainment. And for those who haven't had the pleasure, you meet Martin in this one!
Man oh man, the level of skill and expertise demonstrated in these 2 builds is beyond belief. Keep up the great work Chris and thanks for sharing the process.
In the spirt of re-doing and for extra style points; I suggest sticking with the Ferrari original throttle body arrangement, no down turns, and focus on showcasing the engine like Ferrari likes to do. Combine the 914 engine lid and trunk lid into one...like a Ferrari spiderish engine lid. Diffidently a challenge style wise with the Ferrari engine above the 914 body lines...another level of metal fabrication and more tools... See below for inspiration.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8125 - I appreciate your input but I'm not going to try that approach. It would impact the trunk nearly all the way back and IMO, that severe a change to an area that large would alter the look far more than I want to. If for some reason I don't like what I can achieve with the current intake mods, I'll look at ITBs.
Slight delay on this build so I could focus on RacerBenz. Or should I now call it "RollerBenz"! It looks so cool...
And yes, with the drive train and driver position moved to the middle, may I present "Stuck in the Middle Racing". C.LOWNS to the left, J.OKERS to the right...
Follow the build here, if you like this sort of thing:
Damn you! I clicked on the thread hoping to get an update on the 914/Ferrari build and instead I get a link to the RacerBenz. Next thing I know I’m spending the afternoon reading the whole build thread…..spoiler alert…the imagination and fab skills just keep getting better. Well at least you help me keep my slacker status up to date.
You are probably better off machining your own from scratch and pay a whole lot less…
Dubai has lots of parts cars….not kidding
The bullet, she has been bitten: ordered the shifter today.
And about the price, just look at these components. This isn't all of it but Billet!
And my contact who helped facilitate this being available just drove a car with this shifter and repoted:
"I can honestly say the shift action is absolutely fantastic. Very rifle bolt action, far nicer feeling than the factory stock sloppy version."
And he has perhaps the world's most well developed 360. Good enough for me!
The pic is how it looks installed. Yes, it comes with that "pop up" area under the gate (that's for installing in a 430) Oh boy, I have options for how the console can look!
You should put one of these in the car when you're done ...
Hmm, a 914 with precise shifting is almost as crazy as a 914 with Ferrari power.
Chris - looking great. I have not seen the MB in a couple years - good to see you are biting off another project on top of the 914s. haha. Can't wait to stop by again for another look.
I can’t understand why the aluminum is so thick! It looks like it should be a stressed member in the chassis lol!
Official drop on "At the Red Barn" YouTube channel will happen Saturday AM but I thought some of you might enjoy seeing the shifter being unboxed. Yeah, I know, I'm a little bit excited...
Edit on 8/26: Updated link to "official" version:
I can't wait to see that shifter in person; it looks amazing in the video. I can imagine it will shift like a rifle bolt.
That's the OEM part? :wow:
Ahh, interesting. Explains the EAG thank you next to it.
That is a beautiful looking part! I'm sure it is better than factory, really looks quite incredible.
Like a kid at Christmas.....surprised you didn't spend anytime playing with the box.
Now to work out the location and orientation. I may add a bit of "up at the front" tilt. Among other things, that helps get the shift cables pointed where I want them. Once I'm settled on that, I'll work out a mounting system. And no, it won't include a headlight cover...
But this is where it starts getting fun: I need to think as many steps ahead as possible and account for all the other systems that need to live under this shifter and be accesible for installation/service/replacement once everything is "done".
I think I'd like to preserve the factory tunnel vs total replacement like I did in my LS car. We'll see.
I love that shifter and Clay's idea for the cables.
I like the re-use of the factory headlight cover
Initial mock up of the shifter base mount.
I figured future drivers of this car may prefer a bit different shifter location so...
There will be tabs welded to the chassis but this mount can rotate around that tab at the rear and tilt from flat to about 2" up at the front, enabled by the series of holes in the front tab.
Of course, when it's tilted, the knob moves up and rearward. So the mount also has a series of holes (you can see them just behind the front shift block mount) that allow for the entire shifter assembly to move forward / back, to best suit the driver. Here it's approximating the highest/most forward position.
Version II is on the drawing table but it's a bit more complicated (and potentially impractical) so it may never happen. It adds knobs to enable real-time adustment of tilt and fore/aft positions. Again, don't hold your breath.
Food for thought, I like my shifter to be on the same plane as the steering wheel. It makes movement between the two, smoother and more accurate.
It's just a mount for the shifter. I mean, how complicated could I make that?
Jesus, if Chris manufactured the "Red Barn" model 914 I have to believe there would be a line of customers. The attention to detail is mind boggling. Love the details and of course a wonderful message for people to adopt a kitty.
Nice work! Big step forward figuring all the little details that I am sure took many hours to figure out.
Cool shifter location study. The side views on the videos really show what is going on.
I don't do the best at juggling multiple project but I am making progress. The past couple days has been noodling on the cooling system.
I've been looking at various mid- and rear-engined cars and how, in order to have some sort of frunk, they typically run a pair of radiators - one each in front of the front wheels.
Here's a 360 showing its rad.
I figure, if they can do it, I can do it!
After some closer eyeballing of the 914 chassis, I decided I'd give it a go.
First step is a proof of concept. I decided to use a corner of the black donor chassis and started cutting. A few important points:
- I want to keep the pop-up look so no "lights in the turn signal buckets". I found a set of DOT legal hi/low LED lights that use 60mm beams in a 90 mm mount system. The plan is to mount them to the rear wall of what's left of the headlight bucket.
- this is a '75 BUB chassis but you can see that this approach preserves the area needed for the bumper mounts.
- looks like plenty of depth for a radiator and fan set up.
- the turn signal bucket is totally out of the way.
- depending of final available space, it looks like I can get maybe a 12x14 radiator in there.
The Renegade radiator in my LS car is 27" x 14" (378 sq. in.)
Let's go with worst case: I can only get two, 10"x12" or 240 sq. in. in there. I can get 5"x24" in the center for a total of 360 sq. in. So even worst case looks like it can work.
I'm enouraged! Now to find some radiators...
Just a quick update on the shifter install -
Just such great work happening at the Red Barn.
You should base the cooling math on the Ferrari not the Chevy.... including air intake and exhaust hole sizes.
Also you don't have to see the rad from the front to cool it. Mine uses the horn grills as intakes plus most of the round holes from a spoiler trim, couple of additions to the back of the bumper to direct airflow, and I'm good.
Love watching your videos and drooling over your work. Looking forward to my next visit.
I WANT TO SHIFT IT!!!!!!!!!
(Text me if the shifter is still attached)
"I want to keep the pop-up look so no "lights in the turn signal buckets". I found a set of DOT legal hi/low LED lights that use 60mm beams in a 90 mm mount system. The plan is to mount them to the rear wall of what's left of the headlight bucket."
I've thought about this 996/987 style "side pod" radiator approach on and off - glad to see you noodling on it for this project. I think with the pop up lids and some physically smaller LED light units, you could get some extra ducted air in there at freeway vehlcle speeds - so the fan controller overrides the headlight lifter relay! (visual indicator for the driver to check engine temp!) . The fan loading might be eased a bit. Active aero, dude.....
Also the lift angle on the headlight covers could be restricted to create a less severe angle when open with the smaller diameter units - I seem to recall a post here that someone had done this.
Fun stuff Chris - keep the posts coming!
I cut a mock-up mount for the Hella LEDs I'm considering. Mounting info in the pics. They're 60mm lenses, DOT legal, separate hi and low beam units. Looks like they'll work.
Bonus idea, thanks to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete, is that I think I can get them to sit fully behind the rear wall of the headlight bucket and rather than have the light covers pop up at the front, like stock, they'll hinge at the front and drop down at the back, exposing the bulbs.
Yes, it'll require permanently connecting the eyebrows to the covers and working up a new hinge system but, hey, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
Hmm. Might have to watch the bumper top lip to make sure you get the beam close enough to the car? Like the idea though....
This "corner radiator" requires significant modification so I have to be sure it'll work. I'd really prefer a larger, better directed opening for the radiator inlet...
So here's the latest bad idea: copy the 914/8 headlight size/shape and widen the fog light grill opening to match. This would allow fitment of a nicely sized radiator and tidier airflow.
Plus, being a V8 swap, it'd be a neat nod to the factory 8-cylinder car.
It'd requires fabricating a new headlight bucket and covers, as well as some sunstantial mods to the hood. I think I'll try this on the other side of the donor chassis and see how it goes.
Would you then go with 2 5" headlights on each side?
Love the thought process and the noodling through this. I had considered something similar for my Suby setup, but chickened out.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 Thought’s on putting a clear Uvex or Lexan covers, somewhat like the Ferrari has?
If there is anything that I can help you with on the plastic, let me know. My Blue M Industrial oven is plenty big for these. Picture of Lambo with plex
Best Bob B
How about the cover panels sliding back under the hood?
Now to start roughing out the size/shape. It's made a little more difficult because the factory car has those wonderfully unique turn signal lenses that change the perspective on where things are. I have a couple other pics I can reference and I have a ways to go before anything gets cut.
I think the covers are wider than what I've laid out - which is good because wider = more space for the radiators.
It's a process.
1999 flash back
I did a one-off set for RH on a Rayco Boxster body. Had to trim the bumper to get a horizontal line to the lights. Haven't found pics yet if I even still have them. They were the 90mm Hella projectors so your 60mm would fit better.
A low profile popup is almost easier. Just change the lengths of the pivot arm and lever. The pivot is an awkward angle but you like that kind of challenge.
Last thing, that truck support you cut out to place the rad more inboard is an important structural component.
Couple pics http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=181457&hl=
Think about moving the bumper mount inboard, as it looks like it's in the way of what your trying to do. That part of the body is going to be weak anyways with the big holes in it.
After a bit more cutting/fitting/understanding on the donor chassis, I think it's now about how best to get the air to the radiators. This is a huge mod to the chassis and I won't feel comfortable until I have enough radiator area and frontal openings that pencil out and I know I can more than adequately cool the engine.
Today's exercise was seeing if I could avoid the 914/8 headlight mod and the required s*!+ ton of work and come up with a larger grill opening that I think looks good with the standard headlight cover size.
This is V1. Modeled on the black cars (with some "stretched" 914 bumper grills, one wide at the top, one wide at the bottom), then on my LS car in some scrap mesh. Both feature some bad photochoping, but it gives the idea.
I think it might work. And I like the look, particularly with the stretched factory grills. Perhaps some 3D printed items are in my future...
As always, I'll need to look at it for a while and see how it ages.
I think you are onto something here...
When I had contemplated this I was thinking of going down into the valance vs wider. My thought was 2 separate grills on each side joining into a common entrance plenum. Might be easier and keeping a sorta stock look? I’m sure you’ve already looked at that but figured I’d throw it out there anyway.
And here's the Part 1 video on the corner radiators, if you're interested:
I look forward to all of Chris' videos. He is a just so enjoyable to watch with my morning coffee.
November_25__2023_Radiator_openings.pdf ( 1.34mb ) Number of downloads: 18
Fascinating. Applaud your mission to retain front trunk. It's such a key 914 feature.
Could you fab the headlights to attach to the underside of the covers as a unit?
I had a conversation with Griffin Radiator and was told that using their core - and assuming adequate/appropriate airflow and coolant flow - a 10" x 16" rad (10 x 12 core area) has the capacity to handle 240 hp.
By that math, I'd be more than covered with one of those in each corner. I have to say, that seems a little bit of a stretch. But it is encouraging. Add a center rad, just to be sure and I think I'm good.
I ordered some 60mm DOT halogens to prove out exactly what room I'll need for lighting. Once that's settled, I can get a final spec on the space for the radiators.
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