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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 01:58 PM

Hi 914 World -
A bit of an intro, if you'll indulge me.
I've always been a believer in fate and karma. A believer in serendipity. A believer that the universe presents thing to us for a reason. Sometimes good, sometimes not. Fortunately, the journey of adventure I'm about to begin is one of the good ones!

Maybe a year or so ago, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 Andy calls and says he has a buddy looking to buy a rear valance for a 914 and do I have one I'd sell. I said that I do, give my contact info to your friend. A few days later, this guy calls and we arrange for him to come by the Red Barn and see if the valance meets his needs. He arrives and we start "the dance of the car guys"! He talks about his car experiences, I talk about mine. We talk 356s. We talk 911s. We talk 914s. Obviously, we have a ton in common, including a love for my LS build. He pours over my car, noticing not only the big stuff, but all the little things I've done, too. On this day, he buys the valance and we agree we'll stay in touch. And we do!
Over the course of the following months, he stops by pretty regularly, I visit his place and it's clear that beyond the car stuff, he's a good guy, we get along well and we're going to be friends.

So, one day, we're chatting about RacerBenz. my 2001 Mercedes CL500, Corvette suspension, mid engine, center seat track car build. Yes, I know, a horrific waste of time and money. But anyway, I say "What would be cool is to build "Benzo Ferrari! Find a Ferrari engine and trans and..." He interrupts and says "I have one! From a 360 Modena. And the trans, harnesses, ECUs, etc. I'd love to see it get used for something. Why don't you come get it?"

Wait, what?

Fast forward to last week where I do just that. Here's what's in the Red Barn now: 3.6 liters, 400 hp and 275 lb/ft of Italian automotive porn.


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Posted by: 76-914 Apr 22 2022, 01:58 PM

You need help.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:02 PM

As those who've followed my LS build know, I'm a sucker for what I call "style points". You can imagine how long I sat in the shop just staring at this contraption. It is spectacular. The finishes look so purposeful. It really does look like it was plucked from a race car, not a production car.

It's sitting there and all I can think is "there's just no way it'd fit in a 914".
But at the same time, there's my car, drive train out for the latest round of upgrades. How could I not at least try?


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:03 PM

Hmmm, this looks more promising than I expected.


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Posted by: Root_Werks Apr 22 2022, 02:03 PM

That is a Monstrous engine!

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:06 PM

Well, would you look at that! It fits.


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:07 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9964 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2105 You're right, I do need help. What time can you be here?

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:08 PM

More


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:14 PM

But wait, it gets better!
I forward these pics to the engine owner and we talk, basically agreeing "I'm in if you're in!" But, I tell him, while it looks good in the pics, to REALLY make it work, I'd have to chop all that rear X-bracing out of my chassis. And I'm not going to do that.

He reminds me that he has a '72 914 chassis with GT flares, metal finished valances and rockers, chassis stiffening on the longs, 5-lug and essentially ready for paint.
We went and looked at it today. It's as nice a chassis as I've ever seen.


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:16 PM

more


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 02:22 PM

So. There it is: the next build.
There is one major thing that could bring this to a screeching halt. Most critically, the very first step is the engine is going to a Ferrari expert for a quick look-see. If there are any show-stoppers, this engine is this chassis won't happen. Should that be the case, the good news is there's a Porsche 3.6 sitting in the wings.

So, no chassis cutting is happening until we know the Ferrari engine, she is good!
We hope to have that done in the next couple weeks. And assuming it's all a GO, my outrageous goal is:

Debut the running/driving car at Red Rocks Classic in Sept.

Wish me luck!

Posted by: 76-914 Apr 22 2022, 02:24 PM

How does 2:30 work Chris? Say around July 2024. Busy until then. Can't wait to hear it run.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 22 2022, 02:38 PM

Posted by: markhoward Apr 22 2022, 03:56 PM

This is going to be amazing! Hope it stays the factory color.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 04:31 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20897 Mark - Interesting, as you already know, in that the COA shows it as Paint to Sample / 9990. The paint tag supports this, too. No specific color called out but the factory color looks like Raspberry.


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Posted by: Andyrew Apr 22 2022, 04:36 PM

That’s some of the best valance work I’ve seen!

I’m completely down for this project!!!!

And there is so much room on either side of the engine for a pair of GT35 turbos…

Posted by: napasteve Apr 22 2022, 05:02 PM

Exactly (in a good way)

Posted by: mepstein Apr 22 2022, 05:40 PM

I would put a Porsche six in the flared 914 and build a tube frame car without any bodywork to showcase the engine.

Posted by: Krieger Apr 22 2022, 06:17 PM

It's all my fault! Two wild and crazy guys

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 22 2022, 06:25 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 Andy - first it's suggesting my cross-member mod, next this match making! I sooooo owe you!

Posted by: siverson Apr 22 2022, 06:34 PM

That's awesome! Do it!

-Steve

Posted by: Chris914n6 Apr 22 2022, 06:54 PM

I'd totally paint it Rosso Red.



To match the intake of course...

Posted by: rgalla9146 Apr 22 2022, 07:53 PM

Are the output flanges in line with the hubs ? they look a bit to the rear.
What's the taped up hole in the top of the trans ?

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 22 2022, 08:00 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241
I was wrong about the year btw., it looks like the Playboy raspberry cars were from '73, not '75.

Built date should be around 10/72 and the VIN close to 4732905940 ...

Posted by: KELTY360 Apr 22 2022, 08:04 PM

Beware of Ferrari fanatics named Guido.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Apr 23 2022, 06:52 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 - Man, that is a nice, straight, perfect looking chassis. I like the idea about painting her Rosso Red.

I really do think you need to expand the Red Barn, like double it's size. Wait, was that too much?

Posted by: Chris H. Apr 23 2022, 07:15 AM

The lines on that thing are amazing. Very high quality work. Would be an awesome build. Hope the engine checks out!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Apr 23 2022, 07:34 AM

Hope the engine checks out - this will be cool.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 23 2022, 08:40 AM

I figured some of you might like this - thanks for the encouragement.

A couple things:
- Color: The owner is a fan of "nothing to give away what's up until you're right there on the car". For this reason, it absolutely won't be painted red. Too obvious a choice. But near 100% probability it'll be a Ferrari color. The owner is a fan of blue (me too!) and the current leaders are something along the lines of "Blu Scozia" or "Tour de France Blue". Look them up - both great colors.

- History: The chassis is PTS what looks like Raspberry and there's some speculation it might have been a Playboy car. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 Andy, I'll be in touch with more details to see if we do have something with an interesting history. But even if that's the case, the car has been flared and prepped for a /6 swap so, Ferrari engine swap aside, it won't be going back to anywhere near factory spec. Interestingly - and those who've followed my LS build will see why I think this build was fated to happen - this chassis has had its fire wall cut out and modified! It has subsequently been replaced with an NOS firewall but, come on! Are you kidding me?!?

- My involvement. At this point, I'm only building the car and don't own any of what you're seeing. This may change. We may partner on it, we may work out a trade. Lots of stuff, lots to work out. But one thing for sure, it's gonna be a fun project and learning experience.

Posted by: Shivers Apr 23 2022, 08:58 AM

Wow. I hope it is good, but the back up plan is nice too. Some cool stuff happening at the Red Barn

Posted by: Chris H. Apr 23 2022, 09:13 AM

A pink 914 with a Ferrari engine...that would be something.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 23 2022, 09:43 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5176 - An acceptable axle angle was one of the first items to verify. The Ferrari output flanges look like they'll sit a bit further forward than those of my LS/Boxster. And I'd moved my LS drive train forward 1.5" from where the Renegade kit puts it.
Short answer is that fore/aft is well within range. Up/down should be OK but until the package is positioned and the chassis is at ride height, I won't have those specifics.
But there are high angle CVs available for the off road market that should be able to handle this set up - if that's even needed. Onward!

Posted by: rgalla9146 Apr 23 2022, 10:54 AM

You'll have to have some hidden GoPros when you pull into a Ferrari gathering.....
....... especially when you lift the hood
Priceless.

Posted by: Gearup Apr 23 2022, 11:40 AM

If you decide against the flared body because the engine or something doesn’t check out I am interested in it.

Posted by: TRS63 Apr 23 2022, 01:36 PM

What a cool project, looking forward to it !

Antoine

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 24 2022, 12:30 PM

Another typical Tygaboy post: virtually no 914 content! (but the gear heads will likely love it!)
I figured folks might enjoy some additional info and a closer look at the 360 engine/trans so here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDNVP4PwC0k

Posted by: sixnotfour Apr 24 2022, 12:42 PM

Great Video..DrySump Tank built into trans,,crazy...cool..

Posted by: Superhawk996 Apr 24 2022, 03:18 PM

flat plane crank and 8500 rpm - audio porn.

Well stated.

How about i start sending you $300 a month from now to . . . uh . . . . forever and we'll start a payment plan while you build it.

My bet on the hollow rear trans cover is to meet rear impact requirement. Want energy absorbed before the impact sled hits the "solid" transaxle and begins to push the whole engine / transaxle forward to passenger compartment.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 24 2022, 05:15 PM

Because it was such a cool picture. I end up just standing there, staring at it. It is so crazy cool... I am so fortunate to have this sort of stuff essentially fall into my lap. Yes, I'm sure there are more than a couple frustrating days ahead but, this build simply has to happen.


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Posted by: sixnotfour Apr 24 2022, 05:38 PM

100%

Posted by: Cairo94507 Apr 25 2022, 07:21 AM

That 914 could be the ultimate "sleeper". Even flared it will sail under the radar of most until they hear that engine. By then, it's too late.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 26 2022, 09:13 AM

The stars align again. I can't remember if I mentioned this yet but:
Turns out a recent acquaintance is a Motec dealer and owns a 360 Challenge car and a 360 street car! He knows these engines.
I had a nice, long chat with him yesterday and he's agreed to come by, inspect the engine, provide a list of "to do before firing" items and, once the parts are here, perhaps even do the work.
Progress!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Apr 26 2022, 01:09 PM

That is great! I would love to be able to be there when you fire that baby for the first time.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Apr 26 2022, 01:29 PM

And I thought my flat fan and ITB conversion was mega cool...


Betty and I have been debating going to Red Rocks or to Okteenerfest this year. If this is going to be at Red Rocks, I want to see it in person.

Posted by: infraredcalvin Apr 26 2022, 01:35 PM

This is such an awesome project, I’m waiting for the clever name….

Posted by: ClayPerrine Apr 26 2022, 01:37 PM

914 Modena

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 26 2022, 02:28 PM

@Cairo - Michael, I suspect that, as with my LS build, I'll schedule the first start. Anyone who'd like to be here is welcome to attend.

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 26 2022, 02:40 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9463 - I'm sure we'll come up with something, sooner or later. I've noodled on a couple, including Project 2.538 which is how many time 360 goes into 914.
Or maybe "NARF"? Too bad that's not currently available as a CA vanity plate. Yes, I checked.
But NARPOFF (Not A Real Porsche Or F-ing Ferrari) is!
So clearly a ways to go. Feel free to submit your suggestions!


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 26 2022, 02:48 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 Clay, the goal is to have it running/driving at that point. Given the focus I'm putting on this project, within a few weeks I should have a pretty good idea if that'll be doable. I'll be posting progress as it's made and if that timing starts to look at all questionable, I'll let everyone know. Now, if you're looking for a lousy excuse to treat Betty to a Napa area wine country vacation...

And if it's far enough along to be worth looking at, I may trailer it to WCR so folks can check it out. Big if and may, but we'll see.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Apr 26 2022, 02:56 PM

Moteena

Mule = donkey + horse

Posted by: eric9144 Apr 26 2022, 02:58 PM

914NARF

Took me too long to dig this up, but for perspective, here's a 3.6 with a 915
Intakes on this are also pretty tall but clear the engine lid (barely) the F360 looks taller still ...Can't wait to see how this project progresses

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 26 2022, 03:28 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 - Oh, I kinda like that! It's certainly a contender, thanks!

Posted by: infraredcalvin Apr 26 2022, 11:59 PM

I like it! Could always go with the “PORRARI”

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 27 2022, 05:31 PM

Let's keep with the "it was meant to be" theme. I've been sitting and staring at the drive train because, well, "Ferrari" and noticed the output flanges just begging to have something test fit to them. With my car apart, my axles were handy.

You now know the answer and can confidently state when you're next asked at this weekend's Cars & Coffee, "Why yes, Carrera axles do bolt right on to Modena trans output flanges."

You're welcome and can thank me later.

Seriously though, I suspected this might be the case. Nice that it's now verified. Even better is that once I get my Boxster trans back, all I have to do is some simple math and I'll know the length the axles need to be. I suspect they'll need to be shorter than the Carrera spec, but we'll know soon enough.
A successful first step, and I'll take it!


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Posted by: tygaboy Apr 27 2022, 05:37 PM

One other major decision has been made. I asked the owner what would happen if the engine needed major work. He said "I'll fix it.". So there it is. Decision made.
I'm going to pick up that lovely chassis in the next day or so and the clearance surgery will begin soon after.
Here.
We.
Go.

Posted by: Shivers Apr 27 2022, 05:56 PM

That is great news. Nine Fourtony ? Or is that strictly a Fiat thing

Posted by: Dion Apr 27 2022, 06:36 PM

This is fascinating. The fact the Italian & German flanges could line up. Two competitors
sharing a 3rd party supplier? Crazy. I would have thought a piece like this would be “in house”.
Anyway. I love this. Can’t wait to see where this one goes.
So cool of the Ferrari engine owner to concede a rebuild if necessary.
Wow, just wow. Chris you never fail to educate us!!

Posted by: mepstein Apr 27 2022, 08:22 PM

Ferrari and Porsche did share the 914-6/308 rear caliper. Small differences but same castings.

Posted by: mgp4591 Apr 27 2022, 09:45 PM

Moteener...kinda fits...

Posted by: JamesJ Apr 28 2022, 04:38 PM

Hey Chris,
I was thinking 94dena or 914ena.
Looking forward to seeing this build!

Posted by: Andyrew Apr 29 2022, 06:43 AM

Big win on the axles!!!!

Posted by: tygaboy Apr 30 2022, 01:56 PM

Subtle badging


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Posted by: tygaboy May 2 2022, 09:29 AM

We found a pic of the car from when the previous owner was starting some of the mods/updates. Hard to tell from this but that's the original PTS Raspberry - with matching wheels!

And so no one freaks out: No, it's not a factory /6.


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Posted by: Chris H. May 2 2022, 10:10 AM

Looks like they're in process of taking the ^*&%ing dealer bump strip side mouldings off. I'm about to do that myself. Can't take looking at them any more.

Posted by: Morph914 May 2 2022, 12:32 PM

Chris, this is so cool! Nothing beats the music of a Ferrari engine? I’ll be in Napa starting next week, just saying…

Cheers,
John

Posted by: tygaboy May 2 2022, 01:34 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20326 John, Awesome! Please let me know when it's convenient for you to come by!
It'll be great to see you and catch up.

Posted by: Retroracer May 2 2022, 03:57 PM

So seeing that pic - and being the massive Rush nerd I am - have to add to the name suggestion list: "Red Barchetta"

For the guy who works out of the Red Barn...

- Tony


PS. Is BRCHTTA available from CA DMV?

Posted by: ClayPerrine May 3 2022, 06:44 AM

100%.

(Another massive Rush nerd..... )


Clay

Posted by: Mueller May 3 2022, 05:03 PM

Perhaps you can convince him to visit the Red Barn in one of those said vehicles. I’d gladly buy him lunch for a ride about your neighborhood.

Such a cool project.

Posted by: tygaboy May 3 2022, 05:22 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=87 Mike - He's planning to come up on Thursday but doubt it'll be in his Ferrari. I believe his Challenge car is apart. I replied to your e-mail so give a call when you can and let's get together?

Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 11:30 AM

Milestone morning:
The Ferrari SwapRod (as I've taken to calling it) chassis arrived at the Red Barn!
Now all I need to do is get that there drive train into that there car. I mean, how hard can that be?


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Posted by: Cairo94507 May 4 2022, 12:08 PM

Posted by: Mueller May 4 2022, 12:53 PM

I think you need a bigger barn now.

Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:28 PM

And now, some pics of the chassis:
Boy, I'm really unsure of slicing this one up for a swap like this. Take a look at what's already been done - and how nicely.
Let's start with the engine bay:
- 4-cyls mounts removed
- /6 mount installed
- oil tank prep complete
- prepped for A/C line
- suspension consoles reinforced w/bars to the firewall
- heater tube delete (some sort of electric heat was planned)


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:31 PM

But it's up frunk where things get interesting:
There's this really nicely constructed, 2-part false floor. It's aluminum with counter sunk holes for the fasteners.
Any guesses what we'll find underneath?


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:35 PM

Were to begin?
- louvered floor
- custom base plate
- prepped for what I understand is a 993 3.6 cooler and A/C condenser
- front suspension mounts tied together with that round support bar


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:36 PM

The nose, bumper and front valance are prepped for the GT opening. All steel, all the time.
And the fog light openings have been modded. Not sure what the plan is/was for them.


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:39 PM

Another view.


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:41 PM

Really nice gaps. But yes, somewhere along the way, the fender/cowl seams got welded closed. Done by the previous, previous owner, not the current owner.


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 01:55 PM

So there it is. Let the debate begin about how this one is too nice to not finish as a /6 conversion. Especially considering all the parts, including a 993 3.6, are accounted for.

I happily admit, I'm torn myself.

Or, I dunno, maybe someone has an equally nice chassis and they want to try and talk the owner into some sort of trade? I'm just putting that out there. Worst that could happen is he says "no".

My Ferrari buddy is coming up on Thursday to check out the engine. Assuming things look OK, I'm being instructed to commence surgery soon.

Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 02:37 PM

The factory headers arrived today. Surprisingly light, considering how big they seem to look.


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Posted by: tygaboy May 4 2022, 02:50 PM

And in place, they look the business. You can see how the tubes sweep up, forward then back around.

I did some guesstimeasuring on the width and fore/aft size and in checking the space between the suspension consoles, they may actually fit. The real issue is that the O2 sensors stick out the sides so those may not fit.
This may be OK in that 360 headers tend to rot from the inside out, being wrapped in the shielding that you see here. It seems good ones, which these are (!) are quite desirable/valuable. We can sell/swap these and get a set to cut up to better suit the needs of this build. Or make something from scratch that's modeled on the factory tubes. We shall see.

Speaking of those O2 sensors, here's some interesting stuff you likely don't care about: This engine has a flat plane crank, which is what virtually all 4-cylinder engines use. So what did Ferrari decide to do? Run this engine as two, separate 4-cylinders!
There are two of everything: cam sensors, crank sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, throttle bodies and engine ECUs. Yep, two. Each ECU runs 1/2 the engine.

Won't this just be the best, trying to figure out all this stuff?


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Posted by: FourBlades May 5 2022, 02:35 PM

Another amazing project!

Can't wait to watch this unfold.

Definitely in the right hands to make this happen.

John

Posted by: tygaboy May 5 2022, 02:53 PM

The Milestone mornings just keep coming!
Yesterday, the chassis arrived. Today, my Ferrari-savvy buddy came by and gave the engine, trans and some other components the once over. Spoiler Alert:

It passed with flying colors!
He kept saying how nice everything looked, none of the typical corrosion on the various external surfaces, etc. Stop here if don't care about the details.

Details:
Up first, he outlined the maintenance services and related parts I need to take care of ahead of attempting to fire it: the most obvious being cam belts, pulleys and tensioners. He also advised on a couple other "while you're at it" seals and gaskets.

Then we pulled the plugs and borescoped the cylinders. So little carbon on top of the pistons that you could easily see the machining marks. Beautiful cross-hatching visible on all the cylinder walls. And the plugs all read "nice burn".
Then off came the induction and he did a quick inspection of the back sides of the intake valves. Nothing make you breath easy like hearing an expert say, "Wow. This all looks really nice..."
You already know this but I'll repeat it: The motor, she is good!

An additional bonus is he knows all the places to get parts and happens to be a dealer for some of the components I need.
It's things like where to get parts to re-core the water pump vs buying new, contacts at a place the modifies the clutch to make them last far longer, a source for a greatly improved throw-out bearing. The list went on.
It was great to have a knowledgeable person get me pointed in the right direction and even better to know we can proceed with confidence that we have a solid drive train.
A great day at the Red Barn!

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 5 2022, 03:09 PM

Congratulations. That is the way to start a project; great chassis and great drivetrain.

Posted by: Andyrew May 5 2022, 09:58 PM

Awesome!!!! I am really glad to hear that it’s fully green lit!

Posted by: Shivers May 5 2022, 10:45 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241


Was there such a wide variation between the two banks that made that necessary? Or was this a "Ford has a better idea" thing. Well, after watching you wire up the LS car, you are probably their best chance of success. Good luck

Posted by: jcd914 May 6 2022, 12:31 AM

Ferrari has done this before, I ran into it on an F40 I had the pleasure of maintaining for a few years.
Two Weber FI & Ignition control units each running 1 bank of the engine separately, although 1 also controlled the idle speed and the other controlled the boost pressure.
It was an interesting system.

Jim

Posted by: tygaboy May 6 2022, 08:54 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24781 - I'm a newbie to all things Ferrari so I can only guess as to why a "two of everything" approach.
My guess is it was lower cost and quicker time-to-market to employ available, well proven 4-cyl tech (these are Bosch ECUs and used on other model cars) than to spec something unique.
Clearly it works! This same set up is used on both the street 360s and the Challenge Stradale (CS) model. The only difference being a reflash done on the CS units that give a 10 hp bump. And I'm assuming I'll have to reflash anyway to eliminate the immobilizer function. Maybe we go CS spec?

My Ferrari buddy is, as mentioned, a MoTec dealer and he STRONGLY recommended staying with the factory ECUs, given how well the stock tune works. The induction system on this engine is pretty complex and he suspected it'd take a TON of dyno time/testing to even come close to what the stock set up delivers.

I'm going with the expert's advice.

Posted by: tygaboy May 6 2022, 09:35 AM

Drive train mounting: Initial planning
I initially assumed this part would be easy. Just do it like my LS. I mean, the Ferrari has mounts on the side of the block, same as the Chevy, so just run a cross bar underneath and work out how that'll mount to the chassis. Easy!

Turns out, not so much. Being a dry sump, there's no room for a cross bar. We'll there is a small area towards the rear of the engine, but it's in the way wrong place, relative to the mounts on the block. So, I started looking for info on how the engine mounts in the 360 chassis.

SURPRISE! The one video I found shows it being removed out the top of the car. Not what I'd expected. You can see in the pic, the chassis has the two outriggers that support the engine mounts. I could do something like this but then the engine would have to go in/out from above - which means all the rear of car chassis stiffening and transaxle mount would have to bolt in. I don't think I want to go that way.

I'll get into more detail later but at this point, it's looking like there will be a couple removeable, intermediate "hanger mounts" that will bolt to reinforced areas on the chassis to provide those "landing pads" for the engine mounts. These will bolt in once the engine is raised up from underneath. For transaxle mount, there'll be a cross bar/support structure, similar to what's in my LS car, that will grab that single trans mount.

Lots more planning to do but I think I'm getting an idea of how it'll all work.


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Posted by: ClayPerrine May 6 2022, 11:04 AM

Why couldn't you make a support frame that bolts to the engine/transmission. Then make the support frame bolt to the 914-6 mounts on the firewall and to the factory trans mounts in the rear. You can then just raise up the front of the engine, hook it to the mounts on the firewall, and pivot it up into place.

Just a thought

Posted by: tygaboy May 6 2022, 12:26 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143
Great minds... As I was out noodling on it I stumbled on that same sort of idea. A cradle, not a cross bar. Funny how looking at my LS set up for so long put me in a particular mind set and how sometimes it's hard to see a new/different approach.
Still a lot to work out and not sure where it'll end up but please keep the input coming!

Posted by: Chris914n6 May 6 2022, 12:30 PM

My best guess for the 2 ECUs is 2 MAFs. Not a signal that is easy to combine and average at 8700 rpm.

If the senders are 180 apart then it's likely the same ECU for both and any difference is a pin-out.

I'd try fab a cradle and use the existing -6 mounts, but I haven't seen the factory isolators.

Posted by: racerbvd May 6 2022, 12:45 PM

Subscribed

Posted by: targa72e May 6 2022, 05:00 PM

Two ECU's is not just a Ferrari thing. The BMW 850 ( V12) used two separate ECU's as well.
I had a roommate in the 80's that worked at a Porsche shop that also serviced some customers exotic cars as well. I would go and help out for fun when I could. They had a grey market Lamborghini Countach they were working on. It was federalized with BMW CIS systems, one on each side of the engine. I got to go for a ride from there shop over to one across town that specialized in BMW's so they could get the CIS system adjusted correctly. Car would not run well below 3K so we had to keep the reves up. It was quite fun. Car also had straight pipes and sounded wonderful.

john

Posted by: Andyrew May 7 2022, 06:48 PM

Or you could build removable mounting points from the chassis. Triangulated or whatnot. Would be lighter than a sub frame and less tubes to get in the way.

Posted by: Retroracer May 8 2022, 10:22 AM

Chris - RE: Engine cradles and such: More food for thought in the shape of what Ferrari did with the 348 model (see pic). The removable cradle extended to mounting the suspension components, actually forming part of the car chassis. Boxster struts and lower links might be substituted...?

You would likely end up removing a lot of metal in the rear of the 914 chassis to do something like this which you may not be comfortable with.

Something to think about,

- Tony

Posted by: r_towle May 8 2022, 09:49 PM

Is it running yet?

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 9 2022, 05:29 AM

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 9 2022, 06:37 AM

Posted by: tygaboy May 9 2022, 09:33 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9712 Michael - I suspect @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony may not be joking with the "not be comfortable" comment. That ain't a simple task and I really DON'T want to do that level of modification, at least not at this point - and I don't think I'll have to.
I'm meeting with the owner this morning to give him one last chance to change his mind about this chassis. I'm 100% sure he's going to tell me, yet again, to "Stop asking and start cutting!"
I'm pretty sure mounting the drive train is going to be the easiest part of the build.

I've been spending most of my time trying to understand what it'll take to make the engine run stand-alone. There's an immobilizer that has to be bypassed. Good news is that there are a few companies able to supply the needed black box for that, as well as reflashing the ECUs to account for the bypass.
It's now a matter of getting hold of a wiring diagram and working out which circuits in the chassis harness have to be retained. Good news is the key has no transponder so it SOUNDS like the bypass will address the biggest issue.
The wiring stuff I just did for my LS car is child's play in comparison, given thousands of people have "been there, done that."
We'll figure it out, one way or another!

Posted by: Cairo94507 May 9 2022, 09:45 AM

Yeah, I knew Tony was just pulling your chain. I know you are quite capable when it comes to cutting and welding, etc.

Posted by: SirAndy May 9 2022, 10:16 AM

"capable" and "comfortable" are two completely different things though ...

Posted by: tygaboy May 9 2022, 04:19 PM

At this point, there's no compelling reason to go crazy on the chassis. This build is focused on the swap and making the car run/drive. Focus people, focus!

Posted by: tygaboy May 9 2022, 04:30 PM

Then the owner said, "Come get the rest of the parts..." This is the first load. A bit of the back story is there were at least two 360s that contributed to the parts stash. One was an F1 paddle shift car, one was a manual. One was a spyder, one not. There are boxes of parts, not labeled other than "Ferrari". There's some F1 wiring, some manual wiring...
These are only some of the bins I've got to go through.

Who speaks/reads Italian? I'll need it to figure out which of these parts I need.

In cosa mi sono cacciato? ( )


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Posted by: tygaboy May 9 2022, 04:50 PM

Some folks have asked about the intake set up. It really is quite the engineering marvel. If you're like me and find this sort of thing interesting, the link below will take you to a detailed write up about it.
At the very least, know this:
There are dual, DBW throttle bodies that control the air flow into the plenums, just like you'd expect. But those butterflies in the intake runners AND the valve that connects the plenums? They're operated pneumatically.

https://aldousvoice.com/2013/01/07/ferrari-360-air-intake-system/

Remember, all this was available on the '99 360 (maybe on some earlier models, I don't know). Want to see something interesting? Google the new 'Vette Z06 engine and look the design of its intake. Sure, its a bit more refined but it certainly seems Ferrari was onto a good idea.

Crap, I'm starting to like Ferraris...


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Posted by: Cairo94507 May 9 2022, 05:34 PM

Oh my . . . you are going to be busy for a minute or two.

Posted by: tygaboy May 10 2022, 04:20 PM

After scaring the crap out of myself with the wiring, I needed something to make myself feel better so when I came across part of the exhaust, I couldn't resist a "test fit".
It actually looks pretty good. Certainly better in real life than in these pics.

And yes, that exhaust bypass is actuated electro-pneumatically. An ECU signal triggers a valve to open and that same pneumatic accumulator that controls the intake manifold pops open a less restrictive exhaust path.


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Posted by: Andyrew May 10 2022, 09:50 PM

I love butterfly valved exhausts… such a cool idea. I planned on it with my car but didn’t have room.

When I did my cars wiring I used my phone with a translation app. Also lots of stickers had numbers that I was able to look up on Google.

Posted by: Krieger May 10 2022, 10:16 PM

The flange on that exhaust looks like a 914 2.0

Posted by: roundtwo May 10 2022, 11:25 PM

You'll be my first call when I start building a space shuttle.

Posted by: Mueller May 11 2022, 08:24 AM

Do you have access to the wiring schematics? Curious how well made or not they are.

Posted by: Cracker May 20 2022, 07:01 PM

I think so...I've been asking for "space and time" once the Benz project was completed...what happened Chris? Ford Transit Connect...

Cracker

Posted by: 2mAn Jun 6 2022, 04:17 PM

Absolutely love this build, and after the other one Im so eager to see what this ends up looking like. That chassis would've been the perfect car to get forgiveness from my wife, bring that purple is her favorite color and the fact that I plan to build a flat 6 soon

Oh well, I wont try to derail this plan... and quite the opposite. A few plate ideas

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 6 2022, 05:37 PM

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Posted by: tygaboy Jun 22 2022, 04:50 PM

Too many projects, not enough time. Well, that and we were searching for all the Ferrari parts that were somewhere amongst a very large (I mean LARGE) parts stash of air-cooled 911 stuff.
And it always takes longer when your searching is interrupted when you stumble on something, umm, "unique".

Factory 935 rear suspension, center locks and calipers anyone?


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Posted by: tygaboy Jun 22 2022, 04:55 PM

But back to this build. We found all the parts that were there, most importantly, the engine ECUs, oil separator tank (and cap w/dipstick) and the throttle bodies/MAF sensors.

And you thought the engine looked big before...!

Back to the parts. Just some perspective in a "and you thought Porsche parts were pricey!" sort of way:
The ECUs (remember, there are two) command ~$2500 - $3000. Each. That oil tank cap/dipstick? Used, they're about $200.
So finding all the parts we possibly can is a good thing.


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Posted by: tygaboy Jun 22 2022, 04:59 PM

As soon as my 914 is back together (hopefully in less than 2 weeks), I'll move the other chassis into the Red Barn and get started on fitting this drive train! I'm psyched to get started!

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jun 22 2022, 05:07 PM

Damn... I would love to have those to go with my flat fan on my 914-6.

I even looked up how much wheels would cost....

Clay

Posted by: SirAndy Jun 22 2022, 06:16 PM

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Posted by: tygaboy Jul 7 2022, 04:49 PM

If you watched the earlier video, you heard me mention how advantageous it is that the Ferrari's transmission output flanges are higher than the Boxster trans. I thought it'd be nice to have a comparo pic.
Granted the Ferrari is a dry sump engine but just look how much lower that will sit in the chassis while not adding all sorts of up angle to the axles. Quite a difference, eh?


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Posted by: tygaboy Jul 21 2022, 07:33 AM

Let's get this party started!


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Posted by: TRS63 Jul 22 2022, 05:50 AM

Looking forward to see it progressing

Antoine

Posted by: tygaboy Jul 25 2022, 11:00 AM

Happy, happy, joy, joy!
I just got off the phone with John Reed of John Reed Racing. He's the guy who did all the magic to get a Ferrari 458 engine running in this Toyota drift car. F-ing ridiculous stuff.
https://johnreedracing.com/

In any case, I gave him an overview of this build and we had a long chat about making the 360 run on a stand alone MoTec ECU - including swapping out the pneumatic induction components for servo-based actuation. He liked that idea!
The best ever news is that "the 360 is not nearly as complicated as the 430 or the 458 we did..."

So that is the MAJOR hurdle cleared! It was the one thing holding me back from breaking out the Sawzall on this lovely chassis. With this news, the build is full speed ahead!

This is going to be so epic...



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Posted by: ClayPerrine Jul 25 2022, 11:02 AM

PLEASE PAINT IT PINK AGAIN!

It is a 914, which is a bastard child of a 911 and a VW bus, powered by a Ferrari engine. So pink seems to be a really appropriate color for it.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Jul 25 2022, 11:09 AM

Funny you mention that, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 . I was looking at it yesterday and was thinking the very same thing, meaning 'keep it that color'. We shall see. A ways to go before I need to worry about color.

Posted by: tygaboy Jul 31 2022, 04:30 PM

I started inventorying what's there and what's going to be needed and stumbled upon this. I guess there's no choice on color now!
They're even more shocking in real life and yes, they are expired. Not that I'm interested in running a harness like this in a street car, even forgetting the color.
Hard to believe maybe but I have to admit, these are maybe a bit much, even for me!


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Posted by: tygaboy Jul 31 2022, 04:33 PM

On the other hand, this was in the parts stash: new, never installed A/C system! We've all seen the shape most of these are in (crappy, rotted/cracked) so I have to say, they look pretty nice when they're new. The chassis is already set up for A/C so this may actually get used in the build. If not, I'll sell it and someone will get a super nice set up.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 1 2022, 01:56 PM

As I get planning what to cut to fit the drive train, I started taking a closer look at the chassis. I'd only ever really poked around the top side. As I got under it, I was surprised to see it is / was essentially done! Bondo dust aside, everything looks really good. The flare install is particularly tidy and as mentioned, the rockers and valance metal work is top notch.

Final thoughts for today? Man, oh man, this is one "interesting" color!


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Posted by: markhoward Aug 1 2022, 01:59 PM

Keep it pink!

Posted by: JmuRiz Aug 1 2022, 03:06 PM

I love it

Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 1 2022, 05:01 PM

Of course I find myself at odds with others. Pink is not my choice for a seriously nice 914. Yeah, I get the whole "pig" car, but that's different. Sorry, but this is sure to be a top-drawer car and I believe pink will hurt the cars appeal.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 1 2022, 05:38 PM

I go back and forth. Raspberry is actually a nice looking color, if a bit feminine for the build. Something else to consider, as was pointed out to me by @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony, is this color would likely clash with the Ferrari red on that intake.
I could always paint the car Raspberry to keep it PTS then wrap it whatever I like at that point.
Lots to work out - and plenty of time to do it.


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Posted by: KELTY360 Aug 1 2022, 06:51 PM

Pretty tough to hurt the appeal of a Ferrari powered 914.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 2 2022, 11:07 AM

It's not pink, it's raspberry ...

Posted by: waltonsm Aug 3 2022, 11:39 AM

I was thinking further about the location and orientation of the engine/trans. What is the oiling strategy for the transmission? Are there any specific angles or pickup
Levels you are going to need to maintain?

Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 3 2022, 03:34 PM

Yes, I saw the color yesterday- the bottom of the car is nicely finished and in color; it's raspberry. I told Chris, if it were mine, it would likely remain the factory PTS raspberry. I don't think it looks pink.

Posted by: Dion Aug 3 2022, 04:23 PM

I’d rock the raspberry all day. I always thought it to be a cool colour.
That power plant and colour. Win!
So glad to hear the chassis is sound.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 3 2022, 04:26 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=17561 - There's nothing special required. The drive train sits dead level in the car. It does have an interesting (factory) H20-to-transmission gear oil heat exchanger that normally sits in the valley, under the intake plenum, but I plan to replace that with a standard trans cooler.
And I saw your comment in the WCR thread about this being at the 2024 event. But I ain't waiting that long: it'll be running/driving at the 2023 event.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 3 2022, 05:05 PM

Mighty bold words partner.....

Posted by: waltonsm Aug 3 2022, 05:26 PM

Cool!

I know that in the VR6/dsg we have in the corrado race car that the coolant/trans cooler is also intended as a heater to get the oil up to temp quick. We looked into removing it for a while, but ultimately we are still running it.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 11:33 AM

Thursday, August 11, 2022: Project F-NARP officially begins. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - it's really happening!
The pristine chassis has been sliced and diced - and haters gonna hate but I did it anyway.
Some before and after to get things going.

I'm going to try and preserve the rear section of the trunk and use the factory metal to build an abbreviated sorta golf bag sized trunk area so there's at least some sealed storage/luggage capability.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 03:07 PM

Successful first day's work with the initial clearance cuts made and a first attempt at drive train fit. So, what do we know at this point?
- the whole thing needs to come up about 2" which means the 914 trans cross bar and the trunk floor immediately behind the Ferrari trans hanger mount need to be notched and raised maybe 3-4".
- the cam belt drives are contacting the firewall so either the drive train moves back or the firewall gets notched, or a little of both.
- the axle angle is great and I can move things forward or back and still be well in range of acceptable to the CVs.
- it looks awesome!


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 03:09 PM

Rear of trans showing how close things are. What you wouldn't know is there are transmission cooler lines that need to fit up there, too. So, as I mentioned, it'll get notched.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 03:10 PM

Nice output flange-to-stub axle alignment, with room to go forward or backward and still have happy CV joints.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 03:15 PM

The engine seems so small - and it is, compared to the LS. Well, untill you remember to put the intake back in place!


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Posted by: mikey63 Aug 11 2022, 03:17 PM

Looking good Chris!

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 11 2022, 03:53 PM

Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 11 2022, 04:31 PM

This one is gonna be really cool.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 04:36 PM

A couple more pics to finish out Day 1:
Even though it's a relatively small engine, by the time you get all the ancillary system components bolted on, it ends up a pretty large overall size envelope. Here it is with the rest of the intake and the oil/air separater.
Note that the ECU I'm planning to use eliminates those MAF (mass air flow) sensors in favor of MAP (manifold absolute pressure) so everything from those corregated bellows on back will be gone.
Also, I'll cut and tip the ends of the plenums so the throttle bodies aim downward and dive down under the trunk.

That cross bar will have tabs added and it'll serve as the main upper trans mount, as well as adding some strength to that area of the chassis. It'll also be tied into the chassis in ways I haven't yet worked out...! There's also a lower trans mount tab that I think I can tie up to the factory 914 trans mounting points, so that's pretty cool.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 04:43 PM

And finally, a super rough idea of the abbreviated trunk - and yes, it'll seal against the underside of the trunk lid! It'll probably be a bit smaller than what's implied here, and clearly needs a bunch of fab, but you get the idea.

I'm digging this, big time!


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 11 2022, 05:13 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 - Hey Chris, Nice progress. And, a mini-trunk is better than no trunk. I think that is going to look cool.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 11 2022, 05:29 PM

Are you going to cut the top down to fit? That would be awesome!

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 11 2022, 05:33 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 - Better than that is I'm noodling on modifying an early 911 targa top - the ones that fold up - to work on this car. It would fit in this trunk! No promises but...

Posted by: jb_11 Aug 12 2022, 06:46 AM

tygaboy, I followed you here from the RacerBenz thread at GRM and have been watching your builds with admiration for awhile. Amazing work. Thanks for sharing so many details (good and bad). It's great to see the process.

That mini trunk mockup really reminds me of a Cayman rear trunk.

Posted by: markhoward Aug 12 2022, 07:05 AM

Love the trunk Chris. Can’t wait to put my eyes on the car.

Posted by: eric9144 Aug 12 2022, 09:28 AM

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 10:56 AM

F-NARP build, Day 2.
Let's start with the obvious: No, I likely won't keep up this pace. I'm just so excited to be back to fabrication and noodling on design and "engineering"
But I was back at it bright and early this morning and rough cut the rear of the trunk so I could get the drive train to final height. Here's where we ended up at the back.
I didn't fully remove that floor piece as I was thinking I may be able to bend it and retain the factory seam where it attaches the the rear panel. It'll need cutting at some point but I want to do as little re-work as possible.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 10:59 AM

There's now clearance at the cam belts but I don't have the covers on there so it's likely thing will have to move rearward a bit.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 11:01 AM

Here's the important part: the bottom of the drive train is higher than the bottom of the chassis. Maybe hard to tell from this pic but it's higher.

And just LOOK at that COLOR! It's so cool...

Also, before you get too excited, those /6 mounts will have to come out. The driver's side colides with the alternator and it just doesn't make sense to try and use them "just because they're already there".



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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 11:05 AM

Quick poll: Yikes! or Oh, YEAH!
Just look where that plenum is going to be!

I'm voting "Oh, Yeah!

I have an old engine lid I'm going to cut it so we'll know exactly what this thing will look like.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 11:07 AM

And before you get all excited and think you've done all the needed clearancing...

As Max said: "Missed it by THAT much!"


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Posted by: SirAndy Aug 12 2022, 11:18 AM

What's the angle on the drive shafts? I'd rather reshape the firewall a bit to make the front covers fit than moving everything even further back.

The less angle on a drive shaft, the better.


PS:

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 11:42 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 The angle is WAY better than on my LS car. Nothing is finalized and forward is better for fitment of that trans mount, too. Still work to do, for sure.

Posted by: sportlicherFahrer Aug 12 2022, 12:38 PM

Cut engine lid would look pretty rad. That idea gives me another. Have you settled on a name for the project? If not, might I suggest Roter Kopf as an homage to another car sharing similar attributes? I think it translates right, but @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 may have a better translation on that one.

Looking forward to seeing this build at the next WCR!

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 12 2022, 01:09 PM

Thanks to Robert @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3898 , I had this spare engine lid. A bit of measuring and cutting and... BAM! There it is! Not even going to obstruct rearward vision! As expected, the trunk is going to need some surgery but that'll wait until the rest of the intake is worked out.
But holy jeebus, this thing is going to be so cool.
If you voted "Yikes" earlier, well, I'm sorry. You're wrong!


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Posted by: Jett Aug 12 2022, 02:10 PM

Amazing!!

Now you need an acrylic cover like the F cars have.

Posted by: autopro Aug 12 2022, 02:33 PM

Oh God that is going to look good with the engine peaking out like that

Posted by: ssuperflyoldguy Aug 12 2022, 05:14 PM

You are KILLING me... And prob a few others

Posted by: Front yard mechanic Aug 12 2022, 05:48 PM

Enzoenvy

Posted by: worn Aug 12 2022, 06:17 PM

You know that cutting the lid doesn’t exactly solve the problem. In the same way that you cannot quite look past that cool supercharger up front in the hot rods. Which you need to add. Couldn’t be in better hands. Rock on.

Posted by: DTMLGND Aug 13 2022, 08:51 AM

Subcribed!! This is very cool.

Posted by: Krieger Aug 13 2022, 10:13 AM

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Aug 14 2022, 12:12 PM

Gotta say…as much as I loved the idea of lowering the plenum to make this a sleeper, this is gonna look great—and people are going to trip out.

"Yeah but the engine in those—hey, waitaminute…what?!"

I've been a longtime fan of engine swaps, but this one may just take the cake...

Posted by: Chris914n6 Aug 14 2022, 01:36 PM

At this point I think I would seriously consider making the trunk lid shorter and engine lid longer.

For the inlets I'd make a slip fit down turn instead of cutting/welding the intake. It's going to be visible so make it pretty.

I'd also keep the factory oil/water cooler. They chose to do it that way for a reason plus it works fine.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Aug 14 2022, 02:00 PM

^^ Interesting points.

But engine lid longer, with its seam moved further back, will violate a key 914 graphic established by the ends of its targa bar—as will, of course, a Ferrari engine…though that kinda gets a pass.

I wonder about some of Porsche's early attempts to make a single-piece, rear-engined decklid and engine cover for the 914…something Chris is certainly aware of. Then it's "just" one hole in the middle-ish for that red intake plenum. Just thinking out loud…

Fully agree on making the turndown(s) pretty, but have no worries with Chris at work...

Posted by: roundtwo Aug 14 2022, 02:31 PM

.....and here were go again! ...

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 14 2022, 07:47 PM

Not much progress this weekend as Saturday was dedicated to finishing up the intercooler install on the Lotus 7 replica. Then this morning, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 Andy came by to drive my 914 and give me some advice on alignment / spring rates, as well as some input on this build.
In the afternoon, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony stopped by on his way from Bend to the South Bay. We geeked out on the Ferrari build and he gave me his usual excellent input on a few things. Then we took the E9 for a short drive to grab lunch. Best of all, he presented me with the COOLEST gift! I need to take some time and get pics before I post about it but let me just say, it's one of the neatest things I've ever received. I hope when you see it, you'll agree.

Anyway, once the always important social stuff wrapped up, I was able to do a rough cut of removing the engine tray tin and the /6 mounts - and remember, those mounts interferred with things like the alternator so they simply weren't going to work. Removal of all this allows me to get a complete understanding of the room I have for things like exhaust and what I'm thinking will be a cradle-style engine/trans mount. Just a bit more clearancing and I'll be able to start in on fabbing the mounts!


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Posted by: Spoke Aug 14 2022, 09:43 PM

That induction system peeking out of the bodywork reminds me of the 917.




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Posted by: Krieger Aug 14 2022, 10:58 PM

Chris, your car is blazing fast and drives very nicely! Thank you for sharing that driving experience with me! Your work is impressive!

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 15 2022, 09:12 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 - I was toying with the idea of making a short "trunk lid" that was sized to work with the abbreviated trunk. But as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete points out, I'd end up with a body line in a location unrealted to any other design queues - so that's off the table. So, what to do?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony to the rescue! Let me first say that if it weren't for Tony and his "quick sketches" (which are auto art, IMO!), I likely wouldn't have hood vents on my LS build. Or, if I did, they'd certainly be less cool! So, to be clear, I regularly consulted with him on styling ideas for my LS build and he was always willing to listen to my silly "I wonder if..." then noodle up a few ideas - most of which I just love! And this build is no different:

I've been talking with Tony and texting him various pics for the past few weeks. When he stopped by yesterday, he gave me this (among other drawings that I'll share later) as one of a few ideas for the engine cover/trunk. It's a leading contender at this point.

Yes, minor shape and dimension changes will be needed to work in the real world, just like with his hood vents, but it's the inspiration that's most important to me. Well, that and knowing there are other folks out there that want to see this project come togther in the best possible way.

Tony - Thank you, my friend! I couldn't do this without you. Literally. It's so great to get your fingerprints on this build, too.


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Posted by: Superhawk996 Aug 15 2022, 09:21 AM

YES!

Posted by: KELTY360 Aug 15 2022, 09:59 AM

OMG!! How perfect is that?!!

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 15 2022, 06:03 PM

Back to the mundane stuff like getting the drive train mounted.

In a blast from the past, I spent a couple hours on the phone with my fab buddy Martin to get another set of eyeballs on the design I worked up for the cradle. If it's not already clear, I fully expect any number of folks to have significant input on this build. I have no ego around asking for/paying for help. Especially if it means the outcome is what I want it to be.

But back to Martin: As expected, he had a number of great suggestions, both structurally and design-wise. Best is that, overall, we agreed the cradle approach is a solid base design. Yea!

And for those interested, the pic shows the water-to-oil heat exchanger that helps initially heat and then stabalize the trans fluid temps. The arrows are pointing at the connections for the factory, belt-driven water pump which lives at the front of the valley. You can also see how they decided to get the water into the block near each cylinder via that "spider" looking H2O distribution component (external vs the GM internal circulation approach...) as well as the braided lines that get the oil in/out to the trans. The trans fluid pump is inside the trans.
So there's today's "how Ferrari decided to do it" lesson! Be preparred for a quiz tomorrow!

Still tbd if I'm going to run the factory water pump or go with an electric pump and just route to the in/out locations you see here.

Just a few days into this and I can confidently state: This is WAY more complicated than just stuffing things into the chassis, because Ferrari. But hey, if it were easy, everyone would be doing it.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 15 2022, 07:09 PM

Seems everyone on my contributing team likes to sketch! Here's Martin's cut at one side of the cradle we noodled up. The tabbed bracket on the right if the sketch welds to the lower firewall, the "j" shape tube is one side of the cradle, the bracket on it is where the Ferrari engine mount sits and the part with the "?" and arrow is the rear mounting bracket that'll weld on between the 914 factory trans mount/cross bar and the round tube cross bar you saw in the earlier pics.

Then once the headers are sorted (which is a "whole 'nother" packaging challenge), I'd like to see a bar that ties from the long, just ahead of the suspension console, down to the J tube at/near the engine mounting pad.

Coming along and nearly to the point where it's time to start fabbing all this. Exciting times!


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Posted by: bkrantz Aug 15 2022, 08:55 PM

You know, if you really want to give old man Enzo (and old man Ferdinand and just about everyone else) a heart attack, you could turn the drive train around, and make a rear-engine VW-Porarri.

Posted by: Krieger Aug 15 2022, 10:46 PM

WOW! Tony's sketches of the humps are a perfectly natural addition!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 16 2022, 06:23 AM

I agree with Andy, love Tony's sketch and that he is matching the "humps" to the front fenders. Looks great.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 17 2022, 08:59 AM

Design refinement. After more chassis clearancing and getting the drive train in what I'm pretty sure is final location, I bolted on the alternator. Good thing because is sits right where I was thinking a front engine mount could go. Not that I was close to welding anything, but... Sort of a "pants first, then shoes" moment. But you know me: You're going to get full transparency as I make my way through this.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 17 2022, 09:06 AM

I passed this new info and the pics along to Martin, we kicked around a couple ideas and he sent a sketch of the latest thinking. Note it's not to scale, just "to concept". The plan is 3" x 1" .095 wall for those main tubes, even though the sketch makes them look far larger.
It's just not possible to get a cross bar to sit directly under the engine mounts so the one you see fits in a raised section just ahead of the trans, a bit behind the mounts.

And yes, this drawing it's missing the rear section. Which is OK as it's far more straight forward than working out these main engine mounts.
Today's IRL exercise will be to get some tubes mocked into position and work out more accurate dimensions.

Hey, it's a process. And this is the part I just LOVE. Driving them is fine, I like makin' stuff!


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Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 17 2022, 03:26 PM

I am exactly the same. I can't leave well enough alone. I even have plans on how to put a full Cayman rear suspension under a 914 chassis........

We definitely need a bad idea smiley.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 20 2022, 09:26 AM

When you don't have a 3d scanner, skills with Fusion 360 (or the like) or even a lift:

1. stand there looking at the drive train in the chassis
2. imagine how some design might work
3. try and keep track of things that aren't there - shift cables, water lines, wiring, exhaust system...
4. crawl around / scoot around / reach around trying to measure
5. mock up ideas with scrap and other random parts
6. take pics
7. get on the phone with Martin, email pics and noodle on the latest info
8. wait a bit for Martin to email his latest drawing
9. Repeat steps 2 through 8

Slower than it might otherwise be, but we're making progress. These latest designs account for the engine cradle and the rear transmission mounting system (TMS) - it will live between the rear suspension towers - but they're missing the mount where the engine cradle's vertical elements tie to the TMS. I've sent a rough drawing to Martin with an idea I like and expect later today he'll send an updated set of drawings. Almost ready to cut parts!

As I mentioned earlier, mounting this drive train is turning out to be a bit more complicated than I expected. I suspect this will be a recurring theme on this build.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 20 2022, 12:15 PM

My, how quickly plans can change. Another round of planning w/Martin this morning and...

To optimize the Ferrari trans hanger mount, and with all the other stuff planned for this build, it started making more sense to lose the factory trunk and trans cross bar. So out it comes.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 20 2022, 12:18 PM

And a better, no-twisting-moment, trans mount system can be installed. Just mocked in approximate location, as you can see, but the transmission mounting tab will sit between these bars. Structurally better, for sure.
I'll fab a removable trunk floor/wall that can seal against the trunk lid but be taken out to show off all the mechanicalness.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 20 2022, 12:21 PM

And the updated, not-to-scale sketch of the trans mount with the bracket to connect the engine cradle vertical. One of those tabs on each side of the vertical.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 20 2022, 12:25 PM

And I hope you enjoy seeing this level of development process vs me just posting when something is actually complete. I like to document for posterity's sake.

Posted by: davep Aug 20 2022, 02:16 PM

You bet, this is an Epic build!

Posted by: Montreal914 Aug 20 2022, 07:18 PM

Although I can see the performance benefits, I am not into conversions with with non-P power train.

BUT, this one is clearly something else!

Please continue to share all of the development and these wonderful period correct work of art hand made sketches . I grew up learning mechanical engineering from my dad (mechanical draftsman and all around craft person) and always admired his hand sketch skills. No modern CAD can transmit the artistic aspect of engineering like those hand sketches.

You and Martin make a wonderful duo. This will be a nicely engineered and well built car!

Posted by: tazz9924 Aug 20 2022, 09:22 PM

My process is very similar except when step 7 comes around, instead of getting on the phone i get on the computer and want to punch it sometimes. Then realize i messed it up hopefully before waiting a week for laser cut parts to arrive and repeat.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 21 2022, 12:30 PM

I love the drawings — speaking my language

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 21 2022, 04:45 PM

Well, sorry to report there will be no more drawings as I've decided to cancel this project.
This piece of crap chassis is rusty and I just don't think I can deal with it...



Interesting though and another example of "Every 914 has rust. You just haven't found it yet..." No sign of failure anywhere along the seam sealer but mositure found its way in. Granted, it's right behind the rear tire so I'm sure this area got hammered from underneath, but anyway, there you go.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 21 2022, 04:52 PM

The rust discovery was part of removing aaaaaaallllll the remnants of the factory trans mount cross bar and trunk floor panel. Messy, messy work. I need to get all this out of the way so I can weld in the spreader plates that will support the Ferrari trans mount cross bars.
You can see the approach was to remove all the unneeded material. That "hole" is where the factory trans mount cross bar used to attach.
With the removal complete, I reshaped the open area to accept the spreader plate.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 21 2022, 04:59 PM

Then it's the typical fab process:
- make a cardboard template of the needed shape
- transfer it to metal
- cut, fit, trim, fit
- bend to match the curve of the area to which it'll be welded
- fit, trim, bend, rebend, un-bend, fit...

You get the picture.

You can see how the spreader plate will weld to the inside wall of that opening then turn 90 degrees and get welded to the outer wall of the box section.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 21 2022, 05:08 PM

I'm really happy with the fit I was able to get. And with that done, I drilled for the plug welds. With those complete, the part is clamped in place. A quick check of each hole shows that the spreader plate sits flush against the inner panel, just like it should.

Note that there will be another spreader plate that covers this one and extends to support the upper cross bar. It'll make sense once I get to that piece.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 22 2022, 05:09 PM

More messy work grinding all those factory spot welds and removing sheetmetal to prep the passenger side for the lower cross bar's inner spreader plate. But it's all set to go. I got a nice fit here, as well. Tommorrow I'd like to get these welded in and maybe even get the outer spreader plates fab'd, too.

Probably one more messy session and I'll have all the unneeded sheet metal removed from engine bay/trunk area.


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Posted by: mgarrison Aug 23 2022, 01:15 PM

Such outstanding, uber cool fab work as usual Chris!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Aug 23 2022, 01:24 PM

A master fabricator for sure.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 23 2022, 02:41 PM

Prep'ing the inner spreader plates includes coating the surfaces with weld through primer.
Your PSA for today:
Don't weld directly on weld through primer - never weld anything but clean metal.
Weld through primer is designed to liquify and galvanize the metal around the weld to help protect from future corrosion. It helps provide permanent rust protection on the inner edges of the welded metal pieces.

So, prep the area by spraying on the primer (the stuff I used happens to be black in color) then remove it completely from the area where you'll be welding. I just positioned the spreader plate and scratched where the plug welds would be then came back with a cheap-o Harbor Freight 3/8 belt sander and cleaned each weld location.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 23 2022, 02:43 PM

Plug welded! I use MIG for this as it's faster and easier, at least for me. I get what I think is a really nice result without having to worry about getting all comfortable, like I would need to do if TIGing.

I'll come back and edge weld in a few locations, just to lock the plate in a bit more.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 23 2022, 02:46 PM

Next was to final trim the 90 degree return and weld that edge from top to bottom.
A bit of sanding to smooth out all the areas where the outer spreader plate will sit then hit the whole area with weld through primer.
Ready for the outer plate fab and installation.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 23 2022, 03:03 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23922 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9712 - Thanks for the kind words, gentlemen.

I will say that this build has me really pushing to do the best I possibly can, not that I don't do that all the time, just that this car feels like it could turn out to be something really special.

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 24 2022, 02:31 PM

Today, I grabbed the factory 360 trans mount. This is quite a piece! It's WAY lighter than it looks and a quick rough fit suggests it could be adapted to work in the 914 - but it's quite bulky looking and hides a lot of the cool-factor. Maybe it can be sliced up and that rear hanger section could be used?
The good news is that if this gets used or not, the plating I've done is still required so no lost effort... so far.

Anyway, multiple options are always good. Much more to do before final decisions are made.


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Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 24 2022, 02:39 PM

Suggestion... use the rear portion of the factory 360 trans mount in the back. Then take the remains of the mount after you cut the trans crossbar off of it, and put it under the engine to support the motor mounts. Then add risers on the rear to reconnect it it to the trans crossbar. Make it bolt to the trans crossbar so you can remove it to get the engine out of the car.

My mental 3d modeling says it should work. But I am not there to examine it in person.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 24 2022, 05:47 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 - Clay - After playing around with that mount (note that it's aluminum), it's just too much not the look I want. Your suggestion about reusing part of it? The wall thickness is way too thin for a support structure.
When you put this piece in context with the rest of the 360 chassis, it's pretty clear it's about tying together the right/left sides of the rear section of the Ferrari and providing places to mount a few light weight items. A case of "close, but no cigar".
I went to the metal store today and stocked up on 1" x 3" x .095 wall tube. Martin and I worked up some changes to the last design that adds an outrigger from the cradle to the long, just ahead of the suspension console.
Give me a few days and I hope to have V1 of the cradle underway.

Posted by: steuspeed Aug 25 2022, 01:13 AM

Couple walks by by place last summer. Takes a look at my collection. 2 914s, Alfa Alfetta, Scirocco Mk1. Working Man playing out the garage. He says, all these cars are turning into Red Barchettas. I say, Yes.... yes they are.

Posted by: steuspeed Aug 25 2022, 01:44 AM

I would go with the Raspberry, but with those red valve covers it needs to be silver or gunmetal imo. Something like that to show it off. I would be looking at paint chips next to the covers. Porsche Marathon Blue Metallic might be an option?

Ferrari Grigio Ferro
https://rossoautomobili.com/blogs/magazine/15-shades-of-ferrari-silver

Trunk mods, excellent!

POORARI love it!

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 25 2022, 01:05 PM

Before plating for the upper cross bar, I have to get that whole area to be in the same plane so the spreader plate has no gaps behind it.
A quick trim of some 18 ga and I have that piece ready to weld in.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 25 2022, 01:06 PM

First rough fit of the 12 ga upper spreader plate. Still some trimming / fitting to do but you get the idea.


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Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 26 2022, 06:16 AM

Just a suggestion...

Get Ferrari Modena brakes for it. They are Brembo monoblocks, the exact same as the Boxster brakes, but they have Ferrari on the face of them. So you don't have to engineer anything, just bolt them on. Put them behind Fuchs with the Porsche crest in the center.

That would mess with both the Porsche and Ferrari purists big time.


Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 26 2022, 09:17 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 Clay, Well timed, sir! The conversation and initial decison about caliper labeling happened yesterday afternoon! And what is that decision?
Well, you'll just have to stay tuned to hear about it and a couple of other big changes in direction...

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 26 2022, 09:32 AM

Messy, boring, necessary prep for the outer spreader plate.


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Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 26 2022, 11:54 AM

You have probably heard the old saying "Great minds run in the same channel." In our case, too bad it's the gutter.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 26 2022, 05:34 PM

And there's the right side, outer spreader plate plug welded. It'll get some skip welds along its edges, too. I just haven't gotten to that.
And to appease the fabrication gods so they ensure nothing fails, at the completion of any particular area, it's always a good idea to say, out loud, "OK! That's not going anywhere!"

Note that all the plug welds will be sanded smooth and all edges will be seam sealed.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 26 2022, 05:36 PM

Left side upper, inner plate plug welded, sanded, primed and ready for the outer spreader.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 26 2022, 05:41 PM

Without going into the excrutiating details I'm working to understand, it's V4-ish of the rear transmission mount system, including some style points for the upper shock mount area. Just kicking ideas around...


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 27 2022, 06:02 PM

Left side upper spreader in place. I clamp near each hole as I'm plug welding it to be sure the plate is firmly contacting the parent material.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 27 2022, 06:03 PM

Both upper spreaders are welded and sanded.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 27 2022, 06:05 PM

Now to determine the location for the upper trans mount cross bar.

I thought my LS set up was cool, but this thing...man.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 28 2022, 11:25 AM

Engine mounting fun:
The tricky part is that the Ferrari has a chassis that's shaped to support the engine mounts - these supports are a fixed part of the chassis. And becaure the engine is wider at the top than the mount width, the drive train has to come out the top of the car. That's not something I want to have to do, if I can at all help it.

So I have to come up with an intermediate "something" that's removeable and allows the engine to be lowered out the bottom.

Much noodling and head scratching has yeilded this design for what I've taken to call the "landing pads". Essentially, it's a permanent addition to the 914 chassis that's as wide as it can be while still allowing the engine to clear. Then we have a removable chunk of a mount that connects to this structure and serves as the landing pad.

This structure isn't quite final as that tube that heads outward is only a place-holder and will need to angle up to the long. There will also be gusseting from this up to as high as practical on the chassis / cage tubing to combat any twisting force.

Today's goal is to cut a few of these pieces and mock this up in the chassis.

Note that this current design eliminates any tubing from the motor mount rearward: no more cradle approach. This eliminates any potential interference or "no-go" zones for things like the axles, exhaust or, in the case of the right side, the shifter cables.


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Posted by: Van B Aug 28 2022, 01:14 PM

Random suggestion: you should count all the times you had to put the powertrain in place for mock ups. I’ve often wondered how many times should be expected for a custom build… probably close to 100 or more by the time it’s all done!

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 28 2022, 02:17 PM

That's the sort of thing, along with adding up receipts, that I really do not want to do!
But to date, I'm probably approaching ten to get to this point. Fortunately, Most of what's been going on requires the drive train be in place.

One of the ideas I had was to make a fixture that duplicates the motor mount locations and the trans mount tab. It'd be made such that when it was leveled front/back and side/side in the leveled chassis, all I'd have to know is the distance from the fire wall to the motor mount location and I could build all the mounts to the fixture.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Aug 28 2022, 03:44 PM

I simplified it. Loosen the motor mount bolt, remove 4 bolts, repeat, drop. Weld the nuts to the chassis mount to make it easier. Pretty much standard formula for cars with multiple engine options. Tough part is the chassis mount as that area is not the strongest or best shaped part of the car. The trailing arm branch might need to be repurposed round tube. If you are concerned about bolt sheer add a dowel pin or two, plus they work great as locating pins.

I only did it a handful of times. Once the trunk was trimmed and the motor was is in it's final place I cut and welded the crossbar together in car. Helps that I kept the 914 trans and had room under the motor for a typical crossbar. I had the trans bolted in and a crossbar on top of the car with the motor suspended by straps -- plenty of room under to move around.

HTH

Posted by: Van B Aug 28 2022, 05:35 PM

Oh man, I don’t EVER add up receipts! I hear you there for sure

Posted by: tygaboy Aug 28 2022, 05:48 PM

Cut the lower spreader outline to shape, clamp it to the chassis at the front and start working it to get the needed curve.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 28 2022, 05:49 PM

All shaped and curved and clamped in place to verify fit in all areas. It turned out nicely.


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 28 2022, 05:51 PM

All plug welded and ready for sanding. Repeat on the other side and add a bit of edge welding and I'll be ready to add the rear cross bars. Things are moving right along!


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Posted by: tygaboy Aug 28 2022, 05:55 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 - Thanks for the input. It's certainly a process and yep, all the odd shapes make it a bit more complex. In the end, whatever the design ends up being, it'll be over built for safety's sake.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 4 2022, 02:48 PM

Careful what you wish for. I thought it was a super duper thing that the Ferrari transmission output flanges were higher than the Boxster S. Turns out they are really high. Too high? I'm working on figuring out exactly this.

Here's a really rough mock up with the drive train at proper-ish height in the chassis and the trailing arm set to approximate ride height.

Because of the output flange height, the wheel-side CV will never be higher than the trans output CV; it's all droop, all the time.

What I need to work out is: Can a 930 CV (which has a max limit of 28 degrees) stay in range during operation? I'm pretty sure I'll have to add limit straps to stop things drooping too far when I jack the rear wheels off the ground.

It may also require lowering the drive train in the chassis and building a rub bar/skid plate. It wouldn't be any worse than doing a dropped floor, in terms of ground clearance.

So. Many. Items. To. Work. Out.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 4 2022, 03:08 PM

On a simpler note, the left side, lower rear spreader plate has been completed.
I got a nice fit on this side, too. A bit of grinding and it'll be ready for the transmission mount cross bars!


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 4 2022, 04:16 PM

Transmission mount cross bar locating in process. I have a fair bit of leeway so much of it is down to aesthetics.
That last pic shows the mounting tab sits well under the plane of the top of the bars. Important because that's where the floor of the removable trunk will sit.


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Posted by: Maltese Falcon Sep 4 2022, 09:07 PM

Leather limit straps were used in the 935s in the past in order to deal with the suspension droop being over the limit for the on-board air jacks to allow for tire changes. Modern days with the introduction of nitrogen filled + adjustable specs (JRZ, Moton, KW, etc.), the internal discs can be internally adjusted to customer specs for any dedicated droop limit.
These JRZs out of the box had major rear suspension droop. Cary from ERP suspension came by to measure the JRZ units, took over to their shop for mods and now perfect.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 4 2022, 09:20 PM

@Maltese Falcon - I may need to give you a call to talk details. Thanks for chiming in!

Posted by: stownsen914 Sep 5 2022, 07:16 AM

I've used bolt-on limiting straps to limit droop, and also plastic disks inside the shocks like Maltese Falcon mentioned to limit droop on different racecars. Either will do the trick.

Posted by: stownsen914 Sep 5 2022, 07:17 AM

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 5 2022, 12:02 PM

For the trans mount cross bars, it looks like it's back to a revised version of a previous design. Shocking, I know. But there is a bit of a surprise / some style points when you see the overall design.

I also started in on the motor mounts. Many pieces yet to be fabbed but it gets a key item into CAD and proven to fit.

Hopefully, the drive train will be mounted in a week or so.


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Posted by: Van B Sep 5 2022, 03:57 PM

That poor mount… oh the abuse it will suffer lol

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 5 2022, 06:05 PM

With a pretty good idea of the trans mount design, I started in on how to make it as simple as possible to locate the engine mount "landing pads". Rather than deal with taking the drive train in and out 100 times, leveling it each time, etc, etc, etc., the approach is going to be to make a fixture that replicates the locations of the transmission hanger tab and the engine mounts. The drawing shows the basic design. This will be made level to the engine so when it's level, I know the engine will be, too.

Then "all I have to do" is:
- Level the car (fore/aft and side-to-side)
- BIG IMPORTANT PART: locate the engine fore/aft and up/down and determine the transmission hanger bolt location. Not that hard really...
- fab and install the transmission cross members and hanger brackets to support the above location. The trans tab is dead center in the car so getting things properly located is reasonably straight forward
- bolt the fixture to the trans mount and swing it up until it's level
I'll then have the locations in space that represent where the Ferrari mounts need to be.

See how easy?


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 5 2022, 06:24 PM

Then I got it in my head to verify some of the key measurements. I first made up a test piece for the landing pad. This isn't the final outer dimension, it's to validate the hole locations and get a better feel for how much room there will be for fasteners, to determing if I want to have permanent, threaded bungs as part of the part, etc.

My measurements were fine and it did uncover some info. Not a lot of room for fasteners with the holes that close to the rubber. Also, this mount is pretty soft. Surprising how much it can be moved by hand. I'll check with the Ferrari crowd but I think I'll play it safe and get new ones.
Also, notice that the upper "X" plate isn't clocked straight to the lower plate. When I looked online at the new part, they seemed in-line with each other. More info that you'll never use is that these mounts use 2 collared spacers, which means that if you're not careful when tightening the main mount bolt, you can twist the rubber and clamp it "out of alignment". That can't help with longevtiy of the mount...
More stuff to think about during final assembly.

See Post #245 above for pics.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 5 2022, 06:33 PM

Then, to get another measurement I can use for validation during the landing pad fab process, I went after getting the distance from engine mount to engine mount.
I removed the mounts from the cast aluminum bosses on the engine, dropped a plumb bob through the bosses and marked the location on the floor. Repeat on the other side, move the engine and measure distance between the dots on the floor.

Next I used this distance (561 mm, if anyone needs to make a 360 engine mount ) and, using that test plate CAD file, I made up what's essentially a "go/no go" gauge.

If this bolts to the engine mounts, I know my measurements are a "go".

They are!

I may be able to repurpose this for use with the fixture. I plan to start making that tomorrow. Slow progress, but progress nontheless. I'll take it.


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Posted by: mfennell Sep 6 2022, 08:32 AM

I hope you don't mind me registering to throw in a few cents of Ferrari info. Saw your build on grassrootsmotorsports.

Yes to replacing those engine mounts. They are not great. I helped my friend replace the ones in his 11k mile F430. They fell apart once the weight of the engine was off them! Also the trans mount. Unless it still has the new-trans-mount smell, you should replace it.

Mike

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 6 2022, 05:40 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26827 Mike - Are you kidding? I'll take all the help I can get! Please don't ever hesitate to toss information, suggestions or constructive critisism my way.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 6 2022, 05:50 PM

It was about 105 degrees in the Red Barn today but I can take the heat and I'm staying in this kitchen!
As you know, I like to make a part and see it in real life before I know if I like it. Today was playing with a couple different designs/layouts for the transmission cross bars.
In both of these, there will be a box that connects the bars and bosses in that box will have aluminum plates that drop down and pick up the transmission tab.
I think I like the one that has the bars in front of the trans tab. This would require plates that cantilever off the back. If you look back at the Ferrari mount, it has that same sort of design so I think it'll work just fine. Still TBD but it's nice to see things "in the metal".

And if I get lucky, the bend in that top tube will match the V of the engine! Talk about style points!

Note too, that these bars will form the basic shape of the removable trunk so if you squint real hard, you can see how cool that shape is going to be.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 6 2022, 07:01 PM

On 3rd thought, maybe it's this version. Better support for the hanger plates and a nice match to the engine V. The tape approximates the box that'll house the hanger mount bosses.


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Posted by: Front yard mechanic Sep 6 2022, 07:42 PM

I’m liking her curvature

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Sep 6 2022, 09:09 PM

Ha, curious to see straight runs to a pointed V—to each their own.

Curious: Which setup would be stronger? Trying to think of OE setups, whether Ferrari or Porsche or McLaren etc? If you went with straight pipes, and they are stronger, could the "V" pipes be thinner—or even removable for service?

Have to imagine either are going to be pretty with Chris' fab work.

Posted by: Retroracer Sep 6 2022, 11:13 PM

I like the lines /flow. Looks like it'll do the job; obvi you need to think about clearance / placement for airboxes, intake piping, filters, etc. Keep the posts coming!

- Tony

Posted by: steuspeed Sep 6 2022, 11:50 PM

Shock tower bracing seems like a 2 for 1 here.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 7 2022, 06:04 AM

I would use the straight crossbar.

Any bends in a pipe make is somewhat weaker and prone to more distortion at the bend in the pipe.

Function over form.

Clay

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 7 2022, 06:15 AM

Nice build

My transaxle is moved back (rearward) 2" and I do not have axle issues with stock axles. Except when I broke a worn out CV dropping the clutch.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=7725&hl=

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 7 2022, 06:31 AM

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 08:11 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - You know me: I need to play around with various options. Good call/great minds on the tube diameter. That's 1.75" in the pics and I'm leaning toward 1.5". A bit better scale for the car - and this engine. It's tiny compared to the LS, intake aside. And note that in my LS car, the main trans cross bar is 1.75" and everything else in the car is 1.5".

Another thing to consider is that I used a 6" radius die on that bend. General race cage rules call out a minimum bend radius of 3x tube diameter so I could go as small as 4.5" radius, assuming 1.5". That would tighten up the look of that area.

More noodling, for sure. Keep the input coming!

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 08:22 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 Clay - Function over form... Have you met me?
But seriously. One of the designs uses a bent tube, with the bend set vertically, just behind the trans mount. This tube would see forces trying to "unbend" it, make it longer and forcing the chassis wider where its welded at the inner fender. Think "arched doorway". That vs a straight tube where forces are trying to shorten it and pull the fender weldment location inward. Bending moments, bending moments...
In the end, whichever design wins out, it'll be overbuilt given the car's use case.
We want Function AND Form!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Sep 7 2022, 10:56 AM

Ooh, good point re: scale of engine—and now consider the scale of the torque between these V8s, and how it comes in. Normally aspirated Ferrari V8s are a little like normally aspirated flat sixes—not exactly torque rich and what is there is at higher rpm.

Tubes might even be able to slighter still...

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 01:59 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - On the torque thing: yep, exactly! My LS is something like 460 lb/ft and the Ferrari is 275. Easier on everything.

On the slighter tubes: I follow the SCCA/NASA tech rules and for a car this weight, the spec is nothing smaller than 1.5" .095 wall. So that's what it's getting. Speaking of which, here we go!

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 02:16 PM

Here's some stuff for those interested in fab tips and tricks. Well, at least how I do this particular sort of thing:
The rear cross bar ends have to be cut at an angle. I measured the angle with a large protractor and got 25 degrees. The first cut is easy enough - just set the cold saw angle and cut it.
The 2nd cut is the money cut in that it will set the length AND the angle has to be clocked so it's a mirror to the first one.

First, the length: I determined where I wanted the tube to positioned in the chassis and measured between the chassis locations where the rear edge of the bar would land. Since the chassis is getting wider the farther back things go, this is the "long edge" of the tube.

Being sure to have the tape measure at the tip (long part) of the first angle cut, I mark the measured distance on the tube then carefully spin the tube so I have that mark all the way around it.

Then I position the saw's adjustable jaw to serve as a guide for the blade and position the tube with the mark at the edge of that jaw. That's what's shown in the pics. That last one is from under the saw head with the blade set on the tube, just so I can check things are where I want them.

Of course, if you ever mark to cut stuff, you have to play the game of "do I leave the line or cut on the line?" Whatever works for you, just plan, mark and position things accordingly!


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 02:22 PM

The next step is the clocking of the cut:
Hold a digital level fast to the face of the first cut. Simply rotate the tube until the level shows 0.0 degrees and you know the faces will be aligned! Simple, no?

DO BE CAREFUL that you have the tube oriented in the saw so the cuts will be in the proper orientation else you'll have parallel angled ends not mirrored angled ends!!!

I didn't make that mistake on this tube but... Ask me how I know.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 02:23 PM

BAM! I love it when a plan comes together!


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 04:54 PM

With the tubes (essentially) located, I went after a proof-of-concept hanger. This is how I do things: prove that the measurements are correct with something simple, adjust as needed until it's what it needs to be then make it "for real".
In this case, the for real pieces will start as 1x3 tube that'll get pie cut and welded to pretty much replicate this shape. And the hole will be replaced with a steel boss. It'll be plenty strong and should look pretty neat, too.

And that gap at the back, between the bracket and the rear tube? That's due to the fact that the jack contraption I use doesn't hold the drive train perfectly vertical and that slight tip is causing things to not quite fit. Plus, that tube is trying to fall out of position and is sorta being held in place by that piece of scrap there behind it. Hey, I do what I have to...

I also may need to trim the rear tube to get it into its happy place - it has to end up flush to the chassis on both sides and smack in the notches of the final hanger brackets.

The good news is that I can move the drive train fore/aft a little, if needed, with no risk of anything colliding.

I'm calling this a pretty productive day.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 05:10 PM

Probably should have started with this: Here's the final design I landed on, exact cross tube location aside. Pardon my MS Paint hackery.
It's simple and strong, leaves room for a reasonably sized trunk and, most importantly, gives @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete his straight V!
The things I do for you guys...


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Posted by: Van B Sep 7 2022, 08:41 PM

I appreciate the rust colored brush lines lol… it shows a solid effort

Personally though, I think it’s too much for the single point transmission mount. Consider the 996/997 cars, a simple hanger is all you need. The engine mounts are what stabilize the engine from torque twist.

Posted by: Shivers Sep 7 2022, 08:41 PM

Cool

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 7 2022, 09:04 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=8571 B - I appreciate the input. I've looked pretty closely at the Ferrari mounting system as used in the 360 chassis, have had my hands on all the mounts and talked in detail about all this with a friend who has a 360 street car and a 360 Challenge car.

I'll simply say that this isn't as straight forward as it looks. For example, what I haven't pointed out is the 4th mount/bracket. This bolts to a small tab on the underside of the trans and to a yet-to-be-worked-out "lower cross bar".

I don't mean to come across as defensive, just that there's more going on with all this than it might otherwise appear. Plus, I'm a fan of over-building important structural areas.

Keep the cards and letters coming.


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Posted by: Van B Sep 7 2022, 09:19 PM

Well, I definitely didn’t mean to infer that your direction is wrong. I just think it’s serious overkill. And a fourth mount means you need even less from the top rubber mount. Your un-gusseted plate attachments will be the weakest joint and even that mock up looks stout as whiskey in a plastic bottle lol!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Sep 8 2022, 09:38 AM

^ Lol!



The big double bars also feel like overkill to me—and a bit Chevy truck-ish. Not an engineer, and won't pretend to play one, but tend to agree this is a place to "replicate" the factory setup with a boxed beam (maybe thicker) under your proposed trunk floor and maybe something else befitting your capabilities, but now hidden from view: The world's coolest firewall. Probably a lot stronger, too...

Then again, that central mount requires a different approach and maybe this here peanut gallery needs to butt out.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 8 2022, 10:30 AM

If I were doing this, I would not have cut the trunk floor out. I would have cut a small hole in it and made a raised box for the trans mount, adding doublers to the trunk floor where needed. I realize I would have had to cut a relief in the rear wall for the oil tank, but the rest would still be there.

And it would still be able to store the targa top in the trunk.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 8 2022, 03:53 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - Bring on the Peanuts!! I think I've demonstrated I'm open to input. I listen, noodle, then make up my mind - but may change it later, then again after that!

That said, I do think Gallery members need to check with @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 Tony first. Remember with all their input on the hood vents of my LS build, we agreed going forward that Tony would be:

Assistant Chairman,
Design by Committee,
914world inc.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 8 2022, 04:57 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 Clay - still looking at designs, including one that may allow the top to fit.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 8 2022, 05:34 PM

Proving yet again that I'm all ears when it comes to build ideas, the comments from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 got me thinking about other transmission mount designs. I have to admit, while that cross bars design is functional, it really isn't that attractive. And as I already mentioned, I'm after function AND form. So...

This is what happened today.

No, it's not final. And I'm not going to attempt to explain what's still planned for the overall design, other than to say, I'm liking it better, so far.
It's loads simpler and the beam sets the planes for a couple of the trunk panels. I'm also liking the extended shape of the suspension console that ties to the beam, complete with stampings to match the factory panel. I may extend them all the way along the shape of the spreader plates. TBD.

The four holes on each side of the hanger echo the cylinder count - but those may give way to something different... So, as usual for this stage of my approach, still a way to go.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 8 2022, 07:36 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - Let's agree I'll stop tagging you so often! I did want to address your comment about how this mounting system might be "different". Yep, you're spot on.

A few things: That lower transmission mount "link" isn't a solid mount - it's a double pivot. The engine mounts are rather soft and have built in bump stops (!) and the upper trans mount is on the soft side too.

Why? I suspect it's because of the flat plane crank, which makes for an inherently, let's say, "less than smooth", engine. It needs to be better, or at least differently, isolated than usual. And that means the drive train actually moves around quite a bit during operation.

In trying to understand what Ferrari is up to, it appears it's about allowing the drive train to rotate (a little) around the trans output shafts in reaction to torque, but limiting torsional rotation around the length of the drive train. That lower mount has to allow the trans to rotate around the upper mount, hence the dual pivot, but help that upper mount resist twist.

I won't go further than that other than to add that ahead of commenting, folks may want to consider they don't have the same info I do - not that I'm right, just that I have hands and eyes on all these parts and I'm researching a drive train that's a bit different that what we're all used to.

Hope everyone understands the intent of this post. And again, please keep the comments and suggestions coming, just note the above. Thanks!

Posted by: Van B Sep 8 2022, 08:23 PM

That is a very clean look! And as long as the cardboard doesn’t get wet, it should hold up beautifully!

Seriously though, I see where you’re going here and I think it will really come together well.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 9 2022, 05:27 AM

You beat me to it... I was going to make a joke about his CAD (cardboard aided design) process.

I actually like this better than the tubes. It looks more like something that would be done in Maranello rather than Mobile.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 9 2022, 08:17 AM

If you're curious why I may appear overly concerned about mounting the drive train, here's a vid about replacing the motor mounts in the 360. What's awesome is that he videoed before and after to show the improvement after replacing the mount.

There's a nice before/after comparo that runs from 15:41 - 15:53.

But even with the new mounts that thing sure dances around. And that engine note!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5kS19nXgsI&t=943s

Posted by: davep Sep 9 2022, 08:49 AM

I certainly like the idea of a bent beam support for the transmission. Just like a heavy equipment flatbed float is curved so that it straightens out under load instead of sagging. I was going to suggest it, but you beat me to it. When going over bumps there will also be dynamic loads that have to be allowed for.
Porsche's maxim: form follows function

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 9 2022, 08:59 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1244 And I think Ferrari's is the exact opposite (!), or Engine Bays: Who wore it best?



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Posted by: davep Sep 9 2022, 09:22 AM

Maybe that is why I like the pre 1990 cars so much better.

Posted by: Krieger Sep 10 2022, 09:23 AM

For that rectangular crossbar this would look much better than a bunch of holes/tube collecting dust and add some strenght.

Posted by: rgalla9146 Sep 10 2022, 02:45 PM

Mmmmmm......... what a nice compliment and a nice surprise.
I'm taking a bow right now !
Thank you
Rory

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 10 2022, 04:41 PM

While I do like the beam, it's maybe too industrial looking? So here's the newest revision - and it's my current favorite.

With that curved tube, when it's parked next to my LS build, that will let folks know they're related.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 10 2022, 04:47 PM

Next it was on to working out the hanger bracket dimensions. There will be a couple 1.5 x 1 rectangular tubes that'll fill the open section in between the cross bars and provide a weld surface for the entire inner edge of the hanger bracket. The actual hanger will be made from 1x3 tube with an adjustable fastening system to locate and secure the transmission mount tab.

Last pic is a mock up of some of the other structure, modded to support this tubular design.

With the curved tube and the boxing at the ends, I think I can get away with no support tubes from the shock towers.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 10 2022, 04:56 PM

I wanted a break from the transmission mount so I disected one of the Ferrari headers. They didn't fit but I was hoping that, maybe, if I got rid of the heat shielding, I might be able to squeeze them in. Nope...

This means aftermarket headers likely won't fit either, so custom headers it will be.

Essentially, I'll copy the factory design but move the "bundle of snakes" part forward about 3-4 inches. There's plenty of room at that point, as you can see.

I'll cut off and reuse the header flange section as it's intricately shaped. Leveraging the factory part will save a bunch of time/money.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 12 2022, 07:49 AM

I spent some time on the phone with Martin discussing the header interference issue. We kicked around a few ideas until he made one of those "duh, why didn't I think of that?" suggestions. A few minutes later and: problem solved!

Before I post any pics, would any of you like to guess?

Be careful because if you come up with the solution (or maybe a better one?!), I'll be calling you all the time to help me with things like this!

And btw, these headers are being used to prove out what'll work. Once that's decided, I'll either refurb these and do things like remove the pre-cat (that 4" diameter section between the collector and the reducer) and get them refinished or start over with an aftermarket set, now that I know what I need to do to fit them.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 12 2022, 08:07 AM

Why do the headers have to sweep forward at all?

Posted by: Lilchopshop Sep 12 2022, 08:14 AM

Switch sides for the header so that the pipe junction/ bundle is below the suspension mount? Would this put the outlet pipes too low relative to the axles?

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 12 2022, 08:19 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9712 Michael - The goal of most N/A exhausts is to have equal length header tubing ahead of the collector. Within reason, the routing of those tubes isn't critical, but getting length, plus length of the post-collector exhaust, does make a difference. If I start the headers going back right at the engine, I'll end up with a challenge in terms of mounting the mufflers. And yes, wicked as it'd sound without them , it'll have mufflers.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 12 2022, 08:23 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23932 - logical suggestion, and I tried it but swapping sides makes the collision worse and if things did clear the suspension console, the header would end up lower than the engine.

Posted by: sb914 Sep 12 2022, 08:31 AM

Cut off flanges and reverse them .

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 12 2022, 09:42 AM

Raise the engine an inch or two.

Posted by: tom.esh Sep 12 2022, 10:26 AM

Heat and bend to fit? Or a big hammer. Just kidding about the hammer.

Posted by: tazz9924 Sep 12 2022, 10:27 AM

A good ole dent.

Posted by: Van B Sep 12 2022, 11:37 AM

Since you’re not playing by euro 4 emissions on this, why not move the cat further down stream so you can get rid of some bulk and reduce heat in the bay?

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 12 2022, 02:56 PM

Many interesting guesses and suggestions but here's Martin's comment:
"Well, if all you need to do is move everything forward, why not just cut off the flange, move each tube forward by one cylinder and remake the one tube?"

Other than his use of the word "just", he nailed it!

Note, this is just tack/hack welded as proof of concept. But the interesting thing is that, you can see the there's plenty of room to get that front cylinder tube back to the collector while keeping appropriate length.

With this no longer an unknown, I can purchase a set of aftermarket headers knowing I can make them work.


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 12 2022, 03:04 PM

Like it was made for it!

And that O2 bung was never going to work so don't worry about that.


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Posted by: Andyrew Sep 12 2022, 08:48 PM

I like simple solutions loooks good in there!!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Sep 13 2022, 12:04 AM

That Martin…pretty crafty.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 13 2022, 07:02 AM

Very nice and practical.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 13 2022, 04:51 PM

The build may be seeing a major change. I'm looking into what it'll take to work up an adapter to get the Ferrari engine mated to a Boxster S trans. I got a great deal on a G86-20 and in putting together a pro/con list, the Boxster trans comes out ahead by a fair bit.
Things like off the shelf axles, no need for limiting straps, far lower costs, shifters that are actually available (!)...
It won't be a simple adapter in that, the Ferrari trans houses the dry sump tank and the low pressure oil return is in the lower right side of the engine block. That's it, circled in the pic below. This means the adapter has to have account for that passage and accommodate an oil line fitting that pokes out the side.

Oh, and like @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 Clay, I have to make room for a starter on the trans side of things.

So, this will delay things a bit and I may end up going back to the Ferrari trans. Just need to see what's what before committing to the chassis fab.

Another example of "if were easy, everyone would be doing it."


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Posted by: horizontally-opposed Sep 13 2022, 05:43 PM

Something rather poetic about a 914/6 oil tank feeding a Ferrari V8, if it can be done and is sufficient…

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 13 2022, 06:11 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - it's better than that. If the Boxster trans is a go, I want to do a mirror image oil tank on the right side of the 914 - this because the oil return is on the right side of the Ferrari engine. Not that a cross-over line is a problem, more "because I can/mine is different."
And better yet: given this chassis is a '72, let's give a nod to the 72 911 and have an exterior oil door!

Posted by: Chris914n6 Sep 13 2022, 07:27 PM

You asked for it



I looked it up real quick... no difference in function between the 360 and Box shifter so no reason you couldn't use it. You will likely have to make cables the right length anyways. Since you have both trannys you can easily measure the lever throw.

I also don't fathom how an adapter/flywheel/starter cutout/oil tank could be less work than Sway-a-way making axles

You might find 911/Bus/944/Box/996 axles fit just right since the Ferrari looks wider.

Have you measured the actual CV angle with the trans in place? I don't think it will be that much to worry about. You will need 930 size CVs anyways for the power.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Sep 13 2022, 09:43 PM

Ooh, all inputs very interesting. Including 72 oil door (lol) as well as Chris's thoughts above.

Am I at 50/50? Not yet. But tell me this: Would there be a chance that the Ferrari box would have its diff peeking out from the rear, a la 288 GTO?

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 13 2022, 10:06 PM

Easy fix, sell me the G86-20 and stick with the Ferrari transmission.

Posted by: Retroracer Sep 13 2022, 10:31 PM

A pro/con list you say? So it seems you're applying rational logic to the act of stuffing a modern(ish) Ferrari V8 into a 50 year old sports car that'll need rampantly extensive metal & chassis modifications to accommodate it?

Pls, tell me more about your rational, logical approach.

- Tony

PS. I jest, of course. And, please keep the Ferrari transmission and definitely that funky oil container/ air separator. Someone went to the trouble of "clocking" the Ferrari logo (on the cap) in the correct orientation to the rear of the car when it is fully hand tight; how could you not honor that obsessive detail? ;-)

PPS. Genius approach on the headers BTW

Posted by: rgalla9146 Sep 14 2022, 01:39 AM

In all these years I never realized the similarity of our 914 6s to '72 911s with the oil
tank in front of the rear wheel !
Our 6s could have had the oil fill door on the drivers rear quarter.
On the other hand.....our gas filler under the hood allows the entire car to be free of
extraneous "details"
This thread and the creative work it requires is very cool.
Great to see.
Thank you for allowing us to watch the process.

Posted by: mb911 Sep 14 2022, 05:34 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241

Let me know if you need laser blanks of the oil tanks for your application. I have plenty of them.

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 14 2022, 07:58 AM

Hey Ben - Great minds! As soon as the idea of running a 914 tank popped into my head, I immediately thought "I wonder if Ben's parts could be used...?" I have a way to go before I abandon the Ferrari trans but I will absolutely be in touch if I need a tank/parts.
Thanks for your support!
Chris

Posted by: Montreal914 Sep 14 2022, 08:19 AM

My vote is for the Ferrari gearbox, no need for a third party to get involved in this.

Amazing project, wonderful daily entertainment for the readers!

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 14 2022, 09:16 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 - Is that how you're doing it in your Ferrari swap?

Look, I know my posting style invites all sorts of input but, come on - you all should know by now that I don't give up easily. If I abandon the Ferrari trans, it'll be for reasons well beyond a set of custom axles.

And here's a pic to give you something to chew on: While I don't need an entire conversion kit, I do need some of these hen's teeth parts. I'm happy to accept donations to support the project!

Speaking of swaps, did the parts I made for your project work out?


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Posted by: tygaboy Sep 14 2022, 10:28 AM

No screwing around here! Some of you may be aware of Home Built by Jeff's Alfarrari build on YouTube. He's putting a 360 engine in the front of a vintage Alfa. He got wind of my build and I've been communicating with him. He was kind enough to share his adapter file! This is the Ferrari side of things, including the oil return passage.
Ignore the other side as it's for a Subbie BRZ trans (!).
Anyway, this get's me a good way down the "what'll it take" road. And let me say it again:
I haven't decided which trans I'll use. But knowledge is power and I'll know more, regardless.


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Posted by: Chris914n6 Sep 14 2022, 11:54 AM

Just working with what you posted

10,000 car repairs later and everything looks the same... Ferrari isn't that special when all the engineers are schooled the same. Plus I have a 20 year head start on conversions starting before the stint at Renegade. My Nissan is getting a Subaru trans because it's easy and the BoxS is just too involved. Just trying to help and share wisdom.

I take it now you are working with the F1 trans? What are the issues and what parts do you need?

Your parts came out great

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 14 2022, 07:24 PM

Very cool project. Some the challenges with adapters are the added length for input shafts and starter depth. I really like the computer rendering. I don't have those skills. But with a tape measure and a router it can be done.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 15 2022, 07:50 AM

I like that exhaust solution, pretty slick!

$35K for the conversion kit and I think that is for parts only and they must do the install, figure another $10K or so.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 15 2022, 08:04 AM

The biggest issue I had with my Boxster trans adapter was the flywheel. A 964 uses a pull type clutch.
A Boxster uses a push type clutch. Making an adapter to fit a push type pressure plate to a 964 flywheel took some work. And a 944 turbo racing pressure plate. I would love to find a Boxster flywheel that would bolt to a 964 crankshaft.

The second issue was the starter. Not making a hole, but adding a mount in the right position so the starter would engage without grinding or sticking.

There are pictures in my build thread. I posting from a cell phone and can't get the link.

Clay

Posted by: tygaboy Sep 15 2022, 01:24 PM

While I'm pretty good with my 2D CAD program, I've not spent any time in the 3D world. So after playing around with that file, I chose a far faster path and contacted @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=87 . Let me give a HUGE thanks to Mike for jumping right on verifying the file, dimensioning it for me and going the extra mile to locate a Boxster engine file and doing a quick overlay.
Yes, I have all the 3rd D to work out but this is a really big help to get me going.

Let me say it again: Mike - THANKS!! Simply couldn't do it without you.


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Posted by: Mueller Sep 15 2022, 02:57 PM

No problem at all, this is almost like owning a 914 again without the cost or heartache

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 3 2022, 04:44 PM

If I'm going to have any hope of having this running for WCR 2023 , I better get back at it.
My LS car is back on the road so the Ferrari build is back in the Red Barn. Today was spent fine-tuning the drive train location and taking final measurements so design, fab and welding can begin on the trans and engine mounts.
The trans mount cross bars and hanger are almost ready to be welded in - can't hardly wait!
But waiting is sometimes a good thing: Remember how excited I was to see the header in place, "just" moved up one cylinder? Good thing I didn't get too excited. Turns out that with the adjustments I made to get the drive train in optimal position for the axle height, that modded header no longer fit! Everything got lowered by about 3/4" and that was all it took for the header to, once again, foul on the suspension console. What to do? Well, if moving things forward by one cylinder helped the first time, I gambled it'd help again.

And it did. It actually looks better, too. The primary tube bundle nicely fills the area outboard of the front cylinders and I gain even more length for the post-collector exhaust.
In this location, there's more room under the bundle to re-route the two tubes that need to be re-connected to the flange.
As before, the collector still needs to be sliced off and clocked to clear the rear of the cylinder head. But overall? Win-win!


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 3 2022, 04:44 PM

The under side, not that anyone will ever see this view...


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 4 2022, 04:33 PM

Let's make some parts, eh? Here's the final design for the transmission hangers. One will live on each side of the trans mounting tab. Fabrication is underway!


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 4 2022, 05:21 PM

Let's back up and get a better view of the "two forward" header. As mentioned, it nicely fills that area outboard of the front of the heads but will need re-clocking of that last section where it will join the rest of the exhaust.

That odd fastener sticking out of the collector? I'm told that's an EGT sensor location. Not sure if it was used on euro cars or the Stradale maybe but that's how these headers came to me...


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 4 2022, 05:35 PM

Speaking of the exhaust, even though I can't use the factory muffler, the muffler bracket looks like it can be used. It mounts to the trans but is too long for the 914. A little sectioning (it originally had two of those oval holes in the outside walls - I removed one) and we're all set.


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Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 5 2022, 12:15 PM

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 8 2022, 11:28 AM

Transmission mounts nearly done, courtesy of Martin, his skills and machine shop. We make a pretty good team: He's got a great eye for design and unmatched fabrication talents - and I've got projects that need those things!

It starts as a 9" length of 1" x 3", .095 wall tube. It's interesting what comes up when moving from "how about we do this?" to actually making the parts. In this case, the design for these hangers changed because as the material was cut away to get the cool tapers on all the different surfaces, the remaining material wouldn't stay in plane during the follow-on machining operations. So the taper on the 3" face had to start farther from the lower hole than originally planned. In the end, no one will know and even I didn't notice until Martin pointed it out to me.

With a bit of luck, the trans mount will be in the chassis in the next couple days!


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 10 2022, 08:57 PM

Wrapping up the wrap-around on the 2nd hanger then they both get a 2" hole and a final tidy up. A couple days of work. Worth the effort just so the hangers end up with a few style points?

Oh, hell yeah!


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 11 2022, 05:58 PM

Test fitting the transmission mount. That bit of paper is just to model the "insert" that will close off the inner area of the hanger tubing. I wanted to see these in the car and determine if they really needed the insert. Yep, they do.
But other than that, I'm super happy with how they turned out! They are LOVELY.

And can I just say: It's so great to be working with Martin again.


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 11 2022, 06:04 PM

As much as I generally like the full mechanical, simple look, I'm not a fan of the gap between the hangers, purposefull though it may be. I cardboarded up a few different cover panels - one that ran side to side of the hangers with a single, large dimple die hole, one that sat on center of the tubes, just between the hangers...
Then this one showed up and I think it's the winner.
It'll be removable, too, which means it could be made of nearly any material.


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Posted by: Chris914n6 Oct 11 2022, 07:58 PM

Posted by: KELTY360 Oct 11 2022, 08:48 PM

So clean and so beefy. I like the unadorned look that shows the fabrication detail. A spot where function is beautiful.

Posted by: partwerks Oct 12 2022, 09:38 PM

Is that a Chief Automotive frame machine? Those rectangular holes sure look familiar.

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 13 2022, 03:59 PM

As usual for me, we're way far away from 914 content but I assume many of you enjoy this sort of thing.
Here's another look at just how time consuming custom fab can be. These are "just" the transmission mount hangers, as I've come to call them. Look back at what Ferrari used: essentially, just two plates with a break along one edge. These could have been largely the same and that would have taken almost no time to make. But I suspect you all know that simply wouldn't do, because, well, Tygaboy and Style Points!
So, along with all Martin's fancy pie cutting, welding and dressing to get those lovely tapers and a factory-looking edge radius all around the hangers, I asked him to close up the open area of the tube created when that cool shape of an opening was made in the outside wall.
A bit of 18 ga sheet metal trimmed and bent to fit and we have the wall.
That gets clamped in place, tacked all around and trimmed, leaving enough proud of the surface to fuse weld to the outer wall of the hanger.



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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 13 2022, 04:17 PM

Both sides all set for fuse welding and final dressing. After that, these lovlies get welded to the cross bars and into the chassis.

All said, there'll be over 20 hours into making these. Call your local fab guy to get an hourly rate and do the math...

Forgetting cost, folks generally have no idea of the time it takes to do one-off stuff like this.

But just look at those things. Works of art.

And I have to say: TOTALLY worth it!!


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Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 13 2022, 10:06 PM

Gorgeous work, Chris!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 14 2022, 06:40 AM

I am looking forward to seeing all this when I next travel to the Red Barn.

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 18 2022, 05:50 PM

That's the hangers done with the inner wall all tidied up. The goal is to get these and the associated cross bars welded in this week!


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Posted by: Van B Oct 18 2022, 06:17 PM

So very tidy. Well done sir.

BTW, do you have a favorite marking dye and scribe combo? I bought a protractor from eastwood a few months back and it couldn’t even make a dent in sharpie ink on carbon steel lol…

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 18 2022, 07:52 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 it's just blue dykem layout fluid. Any scribe will mark it. It's way better than Sharpie ink. I generally use a "regular ol'" scribe or one tip of the caliper.

Posted by: Van B Oct 18 2022, 10:19 PM

Dykem. Awesome thank you! It’s only in this past year that I’ve been doing the kind of fab projects that made me wish I had some lol. Placing my amazon order right meow.

Also, I was thinking about those brackets and I think you should TIG them onto the tubing and see how it looks if you leave the weld as opposed to grinding smooth. I think a little fab signature might look good there.

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 18 2022, 10:27 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 - It'll all be TIGed. Those hangers were TIGed, too. But the goal was to have consistant corner radii and look manufactured vs fabricated. All the other TIG welds will be left "as welded", just like in my LS build. Pic of my door bar as an example.


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Posted by: Van B Oct 19 2022, 12:33 PM

TBH, I couldn't give two shits about a F360 engine in a P914. I only follow this thread because I like your approach to fab. You and I think a lot a like with regard to it being more of an art project vs a construction project. That's why I think about things like what welds to show and which ones to smooth. A weld is like hand writing, unique to each person.

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 20 2022, 04:41 PM

"Weld it in time" for the trans mount! But to get the various pieces of the mount in the correct location, we first fit the upper bar: leveled to the car and positioned equally fore/aft on each side. Then, based on a handful of different measurements, located center.
Next, we got the hangers fitted to the upper bar, jacked the drive train into position, bolted the trans to the hangers and after ensuring one side's hanger as in the correct location, tacked it to the bar.
With the first hanger located, the assembly was removed and clamped to the fixture table.
I'd previously measured the desired distance needed between the hangers (trans mount boss + washers) and Martin whipped up a spacer block that we used to locate the 2nd hanger.
Here's the fixturing and one of Martin hard at work with the TIG.


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 20 2022, 04:43 PM

With the upper/hanger assembly tacked, we slipped the curved lower tube into place.
Presenting one Ferrari 360 trans mount, ready for final fitting!


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Posted by: mikey63 Oct 20 2022, 04:47 PM

Nice work!!

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 20 2022, 04:49 PM

The above mount was then fit back into the chassis and the trans bolted to the hangers.
I then held a large aluminum plate against both tubes and rotated the lower tube until the plate would not rock at all. This ensures the curved tube is completely in plane with the upper bar.
With that done, the lower tube was tacked to the hangers, the complete assembly pulled out and returned to the fixture table.
The spacer block went back in and all joints were welded. I welded parts of the underside (the side you're seeing here) and asked that Martin take care of all welds in areas that will be easily seen. My welding skills are really coming along and much as I "want to do it all", when I have access to someone as skilled as Martin, it makes sense to me that I leverage the opportunity.


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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 20 2022, 04:52 PM

One more trip from the fixture table back into the chassis. Bolt the trans to the mount, verify the tubes are all correctly located and final weld the trans mount in place!



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Posted by: tygaboy Oct 20 2022, 04:57 PM

So there it is. After a ton of head scratching and numerous design changes, the car has its first "Ferrari specific" mod all but completed. There are a couple inches of welding left to do on the underside of the cross bars at the chassis but things are plenty strong to safely work on the car.
Major milestone, for sure.


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Oct 20 2022, 04:59 PM

That looks very cool Chris.

Posted by: KELTY360 Oct 20 2022, 05:30 PM

Very clean. Will the truncated trunk hide this handiwork?

Posted by: tygaboy Oct 20 2022, 05:38 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5344 - It will, but the trunk will be removable. And I probably won't run with it in, just use it when/if I need to carry a soft bag, etc. All that assumes I can come up with an exhaust that allows for a trunk!
(I think I can...)

Posted by: Krieger Oct 20 2022, 07:39 PM

Very nice work!

Posted by: cassmcentee Oct 20 2022, 08:31 PM

Beautiful
"The Little Engine That Could"

Posted by: Van B Oct 20 2022, 09:40 PM

Oh man that came out great. Definitely worth the effort to go back and forth to the fixture table, the welds are gorgeous!

Posted by: Dion Oct 21 2022, 04:34 AM

Outstanding.

Posted by: Shivers Oct 21 2022, 05:18 AM

Nice work. Great table!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Oct 21 2022, 06:27 AM

Ok, this looks FANTASTIC. Nice work, Chris!

Saw some hinges recently that had me thinking of you (lol...), but this pic has me thinking about the reverse-hinge, one-piece trunk we were talking about—and it would be a shame to remove this viewing angle from the car. One of the best parts of looking at a Pantera is this angle.

So I am wondering…what about finding a way to attach a CF trunk to the factory engine lid? Suspect it would need bigger hinges at the firewall, and struts to make it nice to open and safe in wind, but could be a lovely thing…as could the nicer hinges so long as you're on the case.

Posted by: rgalla9146 Oct 21 2022, 01:37 PM

'truncated trunk'......

Posted by: rgalla9146 Oct 21 2022, 01:39 PM

Phd. in Fabrication and Welding
Stupendous.

Posted by: KELTY360 Oct 21 2022, 01:52 PM

I was hoping someone would notice.....

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 2 2022, 04:09 PM

Cardboard to steel. This is just a test piece to see if I like the shape. I have a couple other designs I want to try before committing.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 2 2022, 04:39 PM

With the trans mount essentially done, it's time to focus on the engine mounts.
At this point, the design has come full circle: all elements of the engine mount have to be removable. Why? Glad you asked! If the aren't, I have to remove the headers to install/remove the drivetrain. I'd rather not have to do that so removable things shall be.

As usual, I need to see things in real life to develop a better understanding of what's what and where so today's effort was to mock up a rough guestimate of the "intermediate" assembly and see how things might fit.

This mock up is just that: not the real dimensional material, barely triagulated, etc. Again, it's just to help me work though design and fitment. Anyway...

The fire wall end of things is pretty straight forward: there will be a set of tabs on the fire wall that will receive a pair of tubes. One tube will run to the front area of the mount, one to the outside.

The other end will have one, possibly two, tubes: for sure, one will run to a spot high on the long and if there are two, the other will run to a lower spot on the long.

In noodling on all this with Martin, we both came to the conclusion that we should chuck the Ferrari headers and build a set from scratch as that'll allow us to get things right where we want them without having to work around a less than optimal situation.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 2 2022, 06:17 PM

Martin's latest sketch of the removable motor mount. This after seeing what I'd mocked up and chatting for a bit about options.
Working with him is so much fun. We work together really well: Neither if us has much ego around our ideas, there's no holding back on constructive critisism, we're both easily able to say "Oh yeah, I shoulda thought of that."
Best of all, he's got a great eye for style points!


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Posted by: Archie Nov 2 2022, 06:57 PM

Very nice!!

Posted by: Bullethead Nov 2 2022, 07:03 PM

Mind boggling.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 3 2022, 06:00 AM

Just my $.02...

It looks like it would work, but I am not a fan of a cantilevered mount. Too much stress on the welds due to all that weight being on the end of the arm.

I can't tell from the pictures, but is there a way to tie the two mounts together with a cross bar? It would help with the twisting a cantilevered mount will experience.

Something to think about?

Clay

Posted by: Superhawk996 Nov 3 2022, 07:40 AM

Regarding mount stiffness for a cantilevered mount:

If you can find any rate information on the engine mount from Ferrari or aftermarket parts, the attaching structure should be 10x the mount stiffness as a rule of thumb.

You could even set up a test rig to measure the mount yourself to get a close approximation the rate if you had the inclination.

That stiffness ratio between the engine mount and the structure will ensure you get proper isolation from the mount and avoid low frequency driveline bounce modes that will lead to a very unpleasant ride. You want to avoid ending up with a engine vertical bounce mode that is in the 4-6Hz range which will interact with the natural frequency of the human body (seated).

Enjoy watching the progress - great build thread.

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 3 2022, 08:39 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1143 - Clay - Let me start by saying that there's a lot of engineering/measuring/discussion that I've not covered in these posts. We've been looking at how a cross bar might be incorporated. At the very start, I assumed I could just run a cross bar under the engine, just like in my LS build. The problem is that with the dry sump design, a cross bar (in a convenient location) would hang too far below the engine and raising the drive train to solve that problem means even worse news for the height of the trans output shafts/CV angles.
The decision has already been made that the bottom of the sump is going to be below the bottom of the chassis by about 3/4" and a ramp/skid plate is planned.
As you can see in the pic, the only place for a cross bar is well back from the engine mounts and there's only room for about a 1" tall piece of material.
Remember, this motor moves around a fair bit so some additional clearance is needed on top of that.
Again, nothing is off the table at this point and whatever we end up doing, it'll be over-engineered.


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Posted by: tazz9924 Nov 3 2022, 12:01 PM

He even shades his drawings, attention to detail i need in this world.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Nov 4 2022, 05:22 PM

A 1" crossbar is sufficient, it's not structural, it just needs to tie both sides together to stop flex. It would also give you a rear mounting point for the skid plate.

If you think of the assembly as a cradle, I think you will end up with an easy solution.

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 4 2022, 06:05 PM

After another day of design conversation and trying to work out the "best" mount, we came up with this concept. That cross bar / ladder fits into the gap I pointed out in the pic above.
No, it's not to scale, the implied dimensions and angles aren't correct, etc. But it does seem to check all the boxes that we've identified need checking.
And it's likely overkill, which is just what I'm looking for.
I'm thinking it'll be 1.5", .095 wall DOM.

One thing that may change is going to a single tube to connect the side sections vs. the ladder struture you see here.

The rear section is there to pick up that lower trans mount. Based on my research, and given how soft the trans and motor mount rubber components are, that small link/mount is critical to preventing fore/aft movement of the entire drive train. It's got to be accounted for.

What's not shown is how that rear section will tip up and tie into the back of the chassis.

On to fab and fitment!


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Posted by: 930cabman Nov 5 2022, 09:35 AM

Hoping you have checked into a competent facility

late to the thread, is this mill from a 360? looking great, cant wait to see her finished

Posted by: roundtwo Nov 5 2022, 11:54 AM

Very cool. Reminds me of the lost art of story boarding, HAND DRAWN concepts in the field. Totally inspiring. I can smell the metal from here.

Posted by: roundtwo Nov 5 2022, 11:56 AM

The intersection of art and skill! Looks amazing.

Posted by: Maltese Falcon Nov 5 2022, 01:46 PM

Chris, hoping that your client has some good "Comeback remarks" to all of the Ferrari peeps that ask him why
When I dropped the flat fan engine in my black six/gt tribute...the 935 guys were hunting me down with their checkbooks: "Hey we can put that fan to good work"
Keep up your amazing skills Chris !

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 9 2022, 07:02 PM

Proof of concept of the "center" tab bracket. This is just a first effort based on a card board template and while I got pretty close, I have a couple changes to make to get a better fit. Plus the final version of all the tabs will be cut from 3/16" plate.

The cradle's upper bar will bolt to the outside of this where another tab will be, while the lower bar bolts to the inside of this with its other tab farther inboard. So, yes, the cradle walls will be slightly angled.

And that ramp that heads forward under the floor will help establish the front section of the under-drive train skid plate/flat floor. I hope to be able to sneak tunnels on both sides with a difusser at the rear.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 9 2022, 07:05 PM

Here's the CAD rear view of the cradle geometry showing the 1.25" tubing and a 1" OD bung that'll bolt to the above mentioned set of tabs.


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Posted by: willieg Nov 10 2022, 09:53 AM

Chris
Seeing yesterday what you are doing with the cradle and bracket, I do have some thoughts. Yes, there is one in every crowd. Cut (2) pieces of 1.25 tubing, 1” long. Fish eye one of the ends of the 1” tubing on both pieces. Weld the fish eye end to the ends of your cradle. Weld a nut onto the other end of the 1” piece of tubing. Run a bolt through your bracket into the nut welded onto the short tubing to secure your cradle the the bracket. BTW: awesome build!

Posted by: Andyrew Nov 11 2022, 05:18 AM

Jebus… how tight fitting do you need it Chris? I mean it’s just gonna be welded, wouldn’t you want a nice 1/16” gap in there for weld space? Man that looks good!

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 11 2022, 02:29 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=172 Andrew, You've met me, right? As I mentioned after my visit to Singer, my shop mantra is now "Plus or minus less than yesterday!"
I'm happy with the latest design's fit.


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 11 2022, 03:36 PM

Wow- that is a very nice fit.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Nov 11 2022, 03:48 PM

I have a 914 but always wanted a ferrari so made my 914 into one: LOL

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 11 2022, 05:35 PM

And here are the final parts in 7 ga (3/16"), fitted with approximate width bungs, just to get a look at whereabouts everything will be positioned.
The undersides of the lower cradle tubes will serve as the location for the drive train skid plate.


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Posted by: Krieger Nov 11 2022, 06:16 PM

Very nice! Now I understand Martin's sketch of the removable mount. Does the third leg of the mount go to the long or is the exhaust the way?

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 11 2022, 06:34 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2104 - Andy, Martin's latest sketch was close but changes were made, based on real dimensions. So at this point, the plan is that there will be similar tabs added low on the suspension console that will pick up a wide bung that's aligned with a 3" x 1" cross bar that runs in that gap under the drive train and ties up to the two cradle tubes.
I hope to have the whole cradle mocked in place this weekend so clarifying pics should be coming soon.
Or, just swing by and see it!

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 11 2022, 07:34 PM

When "mere" engine mounts are prettier than whole cars…

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 12 2022, 02:30 PM

One Ferrari-in-a-914 engine cradle kit. Some machining and welding required.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 12 2022, 06:09 PM

Today Martin and I went to another buddy's shop to borrow his lathe and mill.
First was the lathe, to face both ends of the bungs, then measure and trim them to final length.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 12 2022, 06:10 PM

Next, it was into the mill with the cradle tubes to cut the... wait for it... bung hole!


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 12 2022, 06:13 PM

Nothing like having the proper tools available. Super nice result!
The outer edges of that excess material will be trimmed back and the remaining will be wrapped around the bung ahead of welding.


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Nov 28 2022, 08:40 AM

Looking forward to some new pictures on this after 2 weeks of no World.

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 28 2022, 09:21 AM

You'd think I'd have made a ton of progress in the past couple weeks. Well, if you count design changes, I did!

Remember, this cradle will be attached to the drivetrain and the entire set up then offered up to the chassis. So, after seeing the "vertical tabs" model mocked into the chassis, I realized the odds of being able to get all of the mounting bungs to slip into those slots, at the same time, at the necessary angle, on my contraption jack set up would be, um, "low".

Why don't I think these things through on paper before I make parts?

Look at the how things mount in the 914. In the 911. All the mounts are horizontally oriented. I am such a doofus sometimes. OK, many times...

The good news is all I had to do was rotate the cradle tubes 90 degrees, update the fire wall tab system to account for a horizontal orientation and cut the new parts. With that done I could fixture up the cradle tubes and get things tacked.

Here are a few pics of the fixture set up being used to build each cradle side, then to position the cross bar. Again, having this table is like cheating.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 28 2022, 09:29 AM

And here's the horizontal tab set. One thing I did account for is that the fire wall isn't necessarily 90 degress to the chassis. To account for that, I used a tab/slot approach with the tabs and mounting plates so that once the tabs are tight against the fire wall and the cradle is mocked into position, the mounting plates have enough slop that they can rotate to their "happy place" within the tabs and self-locate to the exact position needed.
See? Sometimes I'm all over a good approach!

Note, too, that I went after the edges of the mounting tabs with my little metal router. It makes for a really nicely finished part.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 28 2022, 09:33 AM

Cradle mocked in place, successfully demonstrating that all the measuring was accurate. I have the needed clearance at the alternator and the cross bar sits just where I wanted it, with plenty of clearance to the drivetrain.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 28 2022, 09:42 AM

Next, it was on to the engine mount brackets. Here's the current design.

What's neat is that you can cut the holes with a bit over 180 degrees remaining and "snap" the piece over the tube. It really helps simplify mocking it into position as it pretty much holds itself in place.
There will be one of these plates on each side of the mount with a vertical plate between them.

Note that I routered the opening but didn't yet get to the outside edges.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 28 2022, 09:59 AM

The last piece of the cradle puzzle is the rear mount. There will be a mounting point coming off the suspension console that picks up a mount at the end of the cradle, essentially in line with the cross bar, sorta like this 1st grader's drawing.



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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 28 2022, 10:00 AM

This is the support bracket design for the cradle's side of the rear mount. That dimensioned surface will support the mounting plate that'll be picked up by the bracket on the suspention console.
All this will be made from 7 ga plate and, like the rest of the cradle mount, will use 14mm fasteners. Say it with me:

"That's not going anywhere!"


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 29 2022, 04:45 PM

Playing with ideas for the rear cradle mount. The side plates would be .125" with a 7 ga plate at the base for the fastener.
The upper shape isn't final as I think I want to box it all in, leaving access for the trailing arm pivot bolt.
As usual, we'll see.


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Posted by: tygaboy Nov 29 2022, 04:50 PM

The cradle is still missing a number of parts but it's far enough along to start working out and prepping the locations for each fire wall tab.
This pic gives a good sense of the cradle's overall design/fit. Note the ends of the tubes are yet to be trimmed to length. And a threaded bung will be welded in at the end of each tube. The lower ones will serve as mounting points for the skid plate and the uppers have no current plan. No telling if they'll ever be used but I don't want to look back and wish I had another mounting point.


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Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 30 2022, 09:47 AM

I like the idea of using the suspension pickups to mount the cradle. It accomplishes two things in one fix. It supports the cradle, and ties the rear suspension pickups together for more structural rigidity.

Clay

Posted by: Krieger Nov 30 2022, 12:56 PM

And you’ll be able to cut out those other raspberry braces!

Posted by: tygaboy Nov 30 2022, 04:52 PM

Today was cutting components for the cradle side of the cradle-to-console mount.
The original plan called for carrying the 1x3 up between each side's tubes but I think I prefer this design.
That said, when I first test fit the side pieces, it struck me that they could use a brace to help stabilize them and add more "anti-rack" strength so I added that connector plate between them.
I'll probably make a couple minor design tweaks to a couple of the pieces but this is essentially it for these mounts.
Note that all these parts are fresh off the plasma table and look pretty rough. I'll hit all the edges with the metal router and they'll look way better and have a much more finished look.
On to the console side of things!


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 1 2022, 01:02 PM

Is this the end of some of my "DIY" processes? Are my plasma table's days numbered?

I can get two of these from SendCutSend for under $45 delivered. Bent and ready to go. Laser cut so better quality than what I can get on my table.




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Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 1 2022, 08:56 PM

Maybe . . . But if you do that to the extreme when does it become bought not built?

Plus when you realize that the radius of a bend should have been larger / smaller or that the cutout could be a trapezoid instead of a hole, you’ll get to spend another $45 and wait while they turn around the parts.

You are an inspiring fabricator, why outsource that?

Posted by: jd74914 Dec 2 2022, 09:33 AM

Yours? Nah. But it does get to be a tougher sell for anyone who hasn't already spent the capital...

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 2 2022, 09:52 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1659 I agree that my sunk costs are a consideration but it really is something to think about. The table takes up a lot of space, too, which is a major contributor to my thinking of selling. The other solution I'm considering is adding on to the Red Barn so I end up with a "dirty room" for the plasma table and other cutting / grinding operations. That'd be the best of all worlds.

And on the "bought vs built" front, I'm pretty confident I'll find plenty of things to do that will still qualify as "built"!

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 2 2022, 11:05 AM

I 100% vote for the "dirty" room add-on if you can do it.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Dec 2 2022, 01:26 PM

There's a lot of value in the love you put into the details, Chris.

Get the temptation, and would probably go that way myself (ok, I know I would), but not sure it's the right path for you. The details like these are what make your builds IMO.

Just two cents…

Pete

Posted by: Chris914n6 Dec 2 2022, 03:16 PM

I doubt the bends would be precise enough to fit like you planned.

Plus you still have to change your mind one more time....

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 2 2022, 03:22 PM

Well, I'd already worked up the design and purchased the material so figured I may as well move forward with a weld-together mount.
The plasma table really does make quick work of all this and to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 Phil's comment, I did update the design, if you can imagine that... I opted to widen the mount and have the center brace sit inside the side plates vs on their edges. This required shortening them a bit and reshaping the lightening holes.
Then I treated all the edges (that won't be welded) to some style points, courtesy of the metal router.
And I agree, @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete, it is more satisfying to look at things and say "I designed AND made that".
Time for some


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 2 2022, 03:48 PM

Love the metal router edges.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 2 2022, 06:53 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=431 Chris for the win! It seems you guys know me better than I know myself.

After looking at the mounts for a bit longer, it struck me they looked somehow incomplete. So another revision later and I have what I think is a more functional, stronger design. Tying the cross bar to the mount provides better support at that corner.

But the real question is, am I really done changing things?


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Posted by: Chris914n6 Dec 2 2022, 07:48 PM

I knew something better was coming.

I feel the center brace could be more interesting than 2 triangles. Thinking a nod to Ferrari since that's its job.

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 2 2022, 10:39 PM

Not even close ...

Posted by: Mike Bellis Dec 3 2022, 10:24 AM

I could have made a much prettier cradle if I had them fancy part cutters. Mine weighs 41 lbs, how about yours?

Keep up the good work!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 3 2022, 03:37 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10496 Mike, Once my cradle is complete, I'll weigh it and post the results. I've been curious about this, too.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 3 2022, 03:42 PM

And that's the motor mount components set to go. With that done, all needed pieces are ready (minus the metal routing) and I just had to do a quick mock up of one side and get a look at the overall vibe of the cradle.
Yep, that'll do!


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 3 2022, 03:48 PM

But that anti-rack brace wasn't doing it for me so I took a swing at a couple alternate designs. Note that I made these taller so they now reach from the upper tube to the cross bar.

Style-wise, I'm leaning toward the "circle in the middle" design as it echos the motor mount's big hole.

And before anyone gets too worked up about any of this, remember: once everything is installed, the entire cradle is essentially blocked from view.

But yes, we'll all know it's there...


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Posted by: SirAndy Dec 3 2022, 04:09 PM

Called it!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 4 2022, 06:26 PM

And today, it's @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 with the double, double win! Yep, more changes.
In looking at things mocked in place, it was obvious I was creating a craptrap under that anti-rack brace. Not wanting that, I created an exit route for any debris that may find it's way into that space.
It'll be trimmed to length, once everything else is tacked in.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 4 2022, 06:32 PM

Do you suddenly wake up in the middle of the night realizing you've missed something on your build?
Last night, around 2AM, I wake up thinking: "Wait a second, if the firewall tabs wrap under the floor, I need a spreader plate under there! Bad idea to simply weld 7ga plate to a single layer of 18 ga!"

A quick measure and cut (and a bit of plug welding yet to go) and that's problem solved. Critical thinkers will also note this changed the dimensions of the center and inner fire wall tabs. Nothing a bit of band saw and sanding couldn't quickly address.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 4 2022, 06:37 PM

And speaking of band saws, here's one for the tool whores:

Swag Offroad's portable band saw stand. This. Thing. ROCKS! Highly recommended!

It stores under a bench, is easily carried to wherever it's needed and it cuts like butta'!

If you're considering a band saw, take a look at these. They make models for virtually any portable band saw, from HF on up, cordless and wired. Did I say highly recommended?


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 4 2022, 06:41 PM

So, after all that, here's a Ferrari 360 engine cradle kit. Some welding still to go, but everything is essentially ready, including all edges routered and final hardware.

With any sort of luck, this will get done and the drive train will be mounted in the car in the next couple of days.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 4 2022, 06:55 PM

And here's one for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete. When I was working out the hood vents for the LS car, Pete noted in the background of one of the pics was a stack of different vents that represented my "rejected designs". It was yet another example of how I need to make something and look at it before I can determine if I like it, that it'll work, etc.

Well, I'm nothing if not consistent! Rather than make Pete have to look for them, I went ahead and got a pic of the "well, that's not gonna work!"/ rejected design parts from this engine cradle effort.

Prolly I need to keep my plasma table, eh?


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Posted by: Krieger Dec 4 2022, 11:10 PM

yup!

Posted by: cassmcentee Dec 5 2022, 05:25 AM

Looks so good Chris!
From that scrap pile I can see an Alexander Calder mobile in the making.

Posted by: Craigers17 Dec 5 2022, 06:02 AM

You should make this a "Kit" for all of those folks who do a "Ferrari 360" engine swap in the future.

In all seriousness....again...just amazing work!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 5 2022, 12:39 PM

Console bracket design in progress with this as the initial piece.


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Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 5 2022, 12:41 PM

I’m just going to wait for this one to show up on BAT.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 5 2022, 06:27 PM

In all likelihood, that's where it's headed. Do I dare go with no reserve?

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 5 2022, 06:29 PM

Final design (only took four tries! ) for what I've taken to calling the "console lower plate". Well, final less the update I made to the shape of the weep hole clearance. It fits nicely.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 5 2022, 06:43 PM

Then it was on to versioning the side plates. (can I make a verb out of "version"? )
I'm using thin gauge material to work out the final shape in CAD, then it'll get made in 10 ga, with the exception of the actual mounting plate for the fastener - that'll be 7 ga, like the cradle's mounts.

You can see the idea is to get a plate that runs from the top of the long and is gradually getting more proud of the console as it descends. This plate will be plug and stitch welded to the console.

There will be a matching-ish plate of the console's front side and I'll add a plate between the two side plates, boxing everything over the console. Boxes being super strong.

Once completed, it should look nice, not protrude into the space I need for the header/collector and be nicely over-built.


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Posted by: strawman Dec 6 2022, 12:39 PM

I bought one of those SWAG mini-bandsaw setups last year. I love it, too! But I still drool over your plasma cutting setup...

Posted by: cooler Dec 6 2022, 05:21 PM

nice work!
I hope your exhaust manifolds clear!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 6 2022, 08:16 PM

Today was getting the cradle's rear mount components all fit and tacked in. It's far enough along as an assembly that it can now be used to position the fire wall tabs. That's on the docket for tomorrow.
Getting closer!!


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Posted by: Retroracer Dec 6 2022, 08:26 PM

Chris - something to think about: will you still be able to get a socket/spanner on the inner axle pivot bolt with the engine/headers in place? Might a well placed slot in the console "beard" side braces be prudent?

Trying to think ahead here.... and, stunning work thus far!

- Tony

Posted by: Krieger Dec 6 2022, 08:26 PM

That is the perfect Ferrari to 914 engine mount! It seems so obvious now!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 6 2022, 11:30 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100 - Tony - yes, the design allows for a wrench to be able to get at the pivot shaft fastener. It'll be clear once I get to boxing in the console. That said, I'm OK sacrificing (some) service access, but only as a last resort.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 7 2022, 06:20 PM

Action photo! The cradle's lower bars hang below the chassis so to minimize chance of the fastener snagging, I opted to run a flat head allen - and that requires a 90 degree counter sink. A bit of time spent locating and leveling in both directions and some "mill as a drill press" and we're all set.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 7 2022, 06:22 PM

Countersink, meet fastener. Fastener, Countersink. I predict you won't become simply friends, I know you'll become very close...


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 7 2022, 06:28 PM

Next was to cut the bars to length and weld in the threaded bungs. Martin broke out his NHRA rule book experience and mentioned that whenever there was a plug weld, you had to leave a bit of the inner material visible through the outer material and weld so the tech inspector could validate things met the requirements and safety specs. Like you weren't trying to sneak in thinner wall than is required, etc.

The good news is that I can now officially pass tech and drag race this thing! Street Outlaws/No Prep Kings, here I come!


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 7 2022, 06:30 PM

Martin did a super cool job fuse-welding the bungs to the tubes.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 7 2022, 06:34 PM

Major milestone for the cradle: all final welding is complete!
The fire wall tabs are also fit and ready to go. The plan is that tomorrow sees them welded in place.
With that done, I'll be able to complete the design and CAD work to make the suspension console pick up mounts.
So.
Close.



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Posted by: BillC Dec 7 2022, 07:10 PM

Very cool!

Posted by: Tferrer Dec 8 2022, 09:45 AM

Just catching up with this thread. AMAZING work, Chris. Utterly amazing...

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 8 2022, 09:49 AM

Wow- Martin's welds are works of art. The whole cradle is amazing.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 8 2022, 03:25 PM

OK, let's see just how far away I can take this from 914 content.
WARNING: Potentially boring content alert!!

Whenever making mounts that locate other items using a bolt, it's obvious you want to align all the holes as accurately as possible. In production situations with their plus/minus and variation, alignment is generally accomodated with slots and/or holes with a bit more 'slop' than you'd think was needed. Look at the 914 engine bar's outside mount - there's the vertical bolt and its slop to the hole in the bar, then the bolt's slop to the U-shaped plate that sits on the chassis' mounting plate and the slop between the two bolts to the U-shaped plate and to the chassis mount plate... In all, LOTS of room to move things around so everything can be assembled.

Jokes about how I do things over and over aside (!), I don't have to think about "production" so I get to (have to? ) work with tighter tolerances. In the case of the cradle mounts, I do have clearance between the bolts and everything through which they'll pass. But how to control the available fastener clearance? I don't want to risk the slop all ending up to one side, making things tight on the other side. That'd make assembly lots less fun.

So, to manage that, here's a fabrication best practice: slice up an aluminum can and wrap the fastener and anything it passes through to ensure the fastener is centered in everything! Now you know you've removed any "slop bias" and things will be nicely aligned, come assembly time.

Is this sort of prep tedious and time consuming? Yes, it is. Especially that 1/8" strip for the tab! But also a worthwhile. Particularly if you're a bit OCD, like me.


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Posted by: cooler Dec 9 2022, 01:02 PM

beautiful fabrication work! Are you going to add any triangulation members or rely completely on moment transferring connections?

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 9 2022, 03:31 PM

The engine mounts and related bracing have yet to be added. Once that's all in place, we'll see what's what and if it appears it'll need anything more.

Posted by: roundtwo Dec 10 2022, 12:42 AM

Slick

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Dec 10 2022, 10:57 AM

Question warning, as you might get mad at me for asking it now (maybe it was discussed earlier and I missed it), but: What's the plan for NVH isolation?

I remember Richard Parr telling me about a customer who had a rough go trying to get his engine running right until they figured out the problem was driven by vibrations from the engine being hard-mounted to the chassis.

(And no, I didn't think about this until you reminded me of the design of the 914 engine mounts…which include the transmission mounts…which got me to thinking about the cool solid engine/trans mounts Parr was talking about.)

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 10 2022, 11:45 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=2058 Pete - Yes, the cradle will be hard-mounted to the chassis but the factory Ferrari rubber mounts are being retained at the trans hanger and both sides' engine mounts. So isolation-wise, it's identical to how it was mounted in the 360.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 10 2022, 11:48 AM

OK, I'm a slacker. I had designs on doing a big(ger) deal YouTube channel for this build but that's just not in the cards. So, I'll just start and keep posting the vids I've done. Note these are essentially raw footage so no complaining!

For a while, these'll take you back to previously completed work but maybe you'll enjoy seeing some add'l details on what's gone into this build.

Here's "Day 1":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ONAEuWHrIc

Posted by: KELTY360 Dec 10 2022, 03:45 PM

A bit OCD.....?

Sorry, couldn't let that pass unnoticed.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 10 2022, 05:16 PM

More about how the sausage is made:
Getting ready to final weld the fire wall tabs. To make it simple to get everything centered, I took a piece of scrap and made up a "centering plate". The center is marked in Sharpie / pointed out with the arrow. This will align with a center mark on the fire wall and set the left/right location.

What about up/down, you ask? The fire wall tabs were designed with with a notch that fits the lip on the lower edge of where the fire wall meets the floor. Those locations were determined by eyeballing where I wanted the bottom of the drive train to end up in relation to that lip.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 10 2022, 05:32 PM

What a pain. Getting the cradle under the engine while it's on the jack is impossible. I have to jack the engine into place, install the trans mount bolt, put screw jacks under the engine mounts, lower the jack, wrestle the cradle onto the jack/under the engine and jack the cradle up into place. Did I say "what a pain..."?

But the payoff/sighs of relief are real! All the eyeball guestimation measurements worked. Things fit. Thank heavens...


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 10 2022, 05:44 PM

Once the fire wall tabs are tacked in place, I can fab the suspension console-to-cradle mounts. Then once that's done, I can FINALLY, locate the engine mount side and top plates.
But I couldn't resist a test fit to see how I did on this set of eyeball measurements.
Pretty well, it turns out. Again, thankfully.

Something folks may not appreciate is that even though every cradle component was designed in CAD, when it comes to fitting all the parts in the real world, and welding distortion happens as the building progresses, each piece needs to be dry fit and tuned, as needed.

So for all you aspiring comedians, that "PR" doesn't stand for Personal Record, it's "passenger rear", indicating this piece has a particular home.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 10 2022, 05:48 PM

And here's another "catch you up on the past efforts" vid. Note that I explain a bit about the 914 that all y'all know about. This is for any folks who may follow the build via YouTube and don't necessarily know 914s. Thanks for your understanding.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JebyCNFblro

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 10 2022, 06:10 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 Hey Chris, Great update video. Thanks, Michael

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 11 2022, 09:57 AM

Here's the last catch-up video. I'll make one more that brings everything current then start doing a better job of keeping up-to-date video coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfb7mdkAzPE

Posted by: siverson Dec 11 2022, 10:33 AM

Nice work and great videos!

-Steve

Posted by: markhoward Dec 11 2022, 01:13 PM

Looking great Chris! Need to make my way to the Barn to see what you have been up to first hand.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Dec 12 2022, 11:34 AM

^ Shoulda known, and looking good Chris!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 12 2022, 06:06 PM

I need to become more self-sufficient, particularly when it comes to TIG welding. But it's just so hard when Martin is available and does such incredible work. But I did finally man-up and did the welding on the cradle's front cross brace. I'm getting there.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 12 2022, 06:08 PM

With the cradle all welded up and the fire wall tabs shimmed in place, the assembly gets final fit, leveled and centered, and the mounting plates are tacked to the fire wall tabs. This ensures everything is in the correct orientation and mounts meet dead on with the surfaces they each bolt to.

With that done, everything was removed and the tabs/mounting plates were bench welded. Then it all goes back in, is checked for center and level and the fire wall tabs are FINALLY tacked to the fire wall!


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 12 2022, 06:13 PM

Unbolt the cradle and fully weld the tabs.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 12 2022, 06:16 PM

Rememer these aluminum can shims? Well, how'd they work out?

All four mounting bolts slide right through the bungs and the mounting plates with even slop all around. And btw, there's not much of it. I didn't leave much room for error and, thankfully, didn't make one. In all seriousness, the fit is essentially perfect. I couldn't be happier.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 12 2022, 06:18 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=172 Andrew - I thought of you every time I checked the gaps...
Again, I couldn't be happier with how all this fits! Sure, there's a bit of upside down welding to go, but with gaps like that, how hard can that be?


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 12 2022, 06:21 PM

And the final acid test. Here's the cradle, bolted in place - only at the fire wall mounts - "floating" at the back. Yep, that reads dead level.

It was a great day at the Red Barn.


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Posted by: fiacra Dec 12 2022, 07:26 PM

Chris, great work! Thanks for letting me visit yesterday. Good seeing you and seeing your amazing work. Your approach to your projects and ability to problem solve is inspirational.

Posted by: Tferrer Dec 13 2022, 11:07 AM

Wow- Inspirational is an understatement. Maybe I'll just have YOU restore the CSL instead of shipping it off?!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 13 2022, 11:16 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26896 Tyson - Careful, it might end up with an LS or a Ferrari swap!
But something I just noticed: "Ferrer" shares a whole lotta letters with "Ferrari"... maybe it's meant to be?

Posted by: plymouth37 Dec 13 2022, 11:31 AM

Awesome work, I can't wait to hear the exhaust note from this beast, it's going to howl!

Posted by: Tferrer Dec 13 2022, 03:46 PM

Well, that's one way of getting rid of the D-jet...

Posted by: 76-914 Dec 13 2022, 04:18 PM

Love that rolling bender Chris. You have nice toys . Don't you love how that Chromoly welds? Have you been able bend the .095 45-60 degree w/o any small kinking. Great build as always.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 13 2022, 07:09 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9964 Kent - Are you talking about bends for something like a roll cage? The tubing will bend fine to 180 degrees, assuming the proper die. The smallest radius you're suppsed to use is 3x OD so on the 1.5, it's a 4.5" radius. I used a 6" radius on all the 1.5" chassis stiffening tubes in my LS build. Hope that helps.

Posted by: 76-914 Dec 13 2022, 08:33 PM

Yes it did, thx.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 14 2022, 02:12 PM

Right side rear engine cradle mount fabbed and tacked in.
While I added that plate on the rear of the suspension console, as I looked at everything, I ended up simply adding an extension to the plating that had been previously added to the front side. I think it makes for what will look more cohesive, once it's all done.
Note that the base mount is 3/16" plate. It has a slight bevel on the underside edge to help in clear a weld on the cradle and this makes it look much thinner than it really is.

Still some trimming/tuning to go, then boxing across the face but this should give a good idea of how it'll all work.

On to the left side - which should go lots quicker, now that the design and approach have been worked out.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 14 2022, 06:02 PM

Left side in process with console vertical extension rosetted in place and rear plate tacked in postion.
The vertical piece will also be welded to the console on the backside, too.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 14 2022, 06:19 PM

Yep, the second time was WAY faster. After adding the same small, front plate extension, the cradle was bolted in at the front and at the right rear. I verified level then placed a scrap 3/16" plate on the cradle mount and scribed a line on each of the plates.
Remove the cradle, use a zip wheel to slice off the excess material, bolt the cradle back in, prep the actual 3/16" mount base, verify everything AGAIN and tack everything in place.

So after what seems like forever, the engine cradle mounts are fabbed, fit and (if I do say so myself) FABULOUS!

OK, OK, so I still need to install the engine mounts but, come on! I couldn't be happier.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 14 2022, 06:22 PM

I'll level with you, it's good to see this is a match.
(Thanks, I'm here all week! Don't forget to tip your servers!)


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 14 2022, 06:23 PM

And here's something you don't see every day: one 914 chassis, essentially ready to receive a Ferrari 360 drive train.


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Posted by: Maltese Falcon Dec 14 2022, 06:44 PM

Awesome build Chris, this will send the precious pasta people to the Nut House when this rolls into Cars und Coffee

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 14 2022, 09:09 PM

Especially if he keeps the "Ferrari Pink" color ...

Posted by: plymouth37 Dec 15 2022, 11:30 AM

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 15 2022, 02:52 PM

What's the opposite of "clamp"? The console's odd angles made it awkward to get the plate firmly pressed against it for rosette welding. Use a clamp backwards and "presto"!

Anyway, it worked a treat and the plate is welded on.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 15 2022, 02:55 PM

Noodling on ideas for boxing, with this design leading at the moment. The height of the opening allows access to the mounting fastener. Looks kinda cool, too.


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Posted by: Maltese Falcon Dec 15 2022, 04:30 PM

From "Cannonball Run" Ferrari driver, 'And now my friend The first rule of Italian driving...what's a behind me isa not important'

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 15 2022, 04:48 PM

Today was me welding on my own, rosetting the spreader plates to the chassis, then the tabs to the spreader plates.
It was extra challenging because it was out of position welding: upside down with the car only about 18" off the ground so I couldn't get my head to an optimal viewing distance from the work area. Such fun! But I got it done.


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Posted by: Tferrer Dec 15 2022, 05:39 PM

Looks like a good area for some of your beautiful dimpling /ribbing?

Posted by: Retroracer Dec 15 2022, 07:00 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 Chris - the opposite of "clamp" is "pmalc". I believe its a silent "p".

I'm here to help.

- Tony

Posted by: cali914 Dec 16 2022, 01:24 PM

Looks great Chris

Posted by: Superhawk996 Dec 16 2022, 02:57 PM

Nothing beats TIG for upside down welding. No shower of sparks or slag.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 16 2022, 04:55 PM

Classic example of "why didn't I do this sooner?"
And yes, I'll run with jack stands in there, too. This was the first time all the way up. What's best is that in this position, the drive train slips under the bumper!
Life made a bit simpler.


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Posted by: BillC Dec 16 2022, 05:17 PM

That looks great, but have you checked to see if you have clearance with the engine in place to put a socket on that bolt? If the engine is wider than the cradle at that point, you might not have room to get a wrench or socket in there.

Not saying I've ever been bitten by sorta detail before, but....

Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 16 2022, 05:38 PM

Game changer for sure.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 17 2022, 09:09 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18667 - As you can see from this "planning stage" pic, the engine width isn't a worry. The only thing that I expect could prevent accessing the rear cradle bolts from above would be the headers - which are yet to be developed. But you make a fair point, for sure. That said, worst case, I can make a custom tool that will allow me to get at that cradle nut. Or come up with some sort of captured nut/nut plate and eliminate the concern all together. All TBD at this point.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 17 2022, 05:58 PM

Today was getting the cradle under the engine and jacking everything into position so I can locate the engine mounting side and main plates on the cradle.
This requires fully suspending the engine in the exact location I want it.

I ended up slinging the front from the the engine hoist while the rear is mounted at the trans. That right there is a Ferrari drive train held where it's gonna end up!

And OMG, the QuickJacks are awesome. All the way up and the motor slides under. Drop it to the low position and it's a perfect height to intall the drive train. So. Much. Better!




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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 17 2022, 06:01 PM

And happiest of all it that my measurements were accurate: all clearances are just what I wanted - most critically, at the alternator.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 17 2022, 06:03 PM

Even the motor mount height inside the mount side plates is just where it's supposed to be! Probably only one more day of work and this first phase of "mount the drive train" will be concluded. It's been a long time coming, eh?


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Posted by: SirAndy Dec 17 2022, 06:26 PM

How much clearance do you have on the firewall? Those valve covers look awfully close.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 17 2022, 06:56 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 Andy - It's a bit deceiving in the pics, there's plenty of room. I did have to "massage" the fire wall just ahead of the cover, but not too much.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 18 2022, 02:10 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 - Andy - There's a bit more room than the tape shows but, yes, there's clearance.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 18 2022, 02:15 PM

Motor mount "top plates" are trimmed to size and everything is now nicely centered. Ahead of final positioning and welding, I'm going to substitute a metal spacer for the rubber mount so as to eliminate any deflection/out of plane caused by the rubber. This'll guarantee the top plates end up parallel to the cast aluminum engine mount surface.


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Posted by: mgp4591 Dec 18 2022, 03:01 PM

Chris, will substituting metal for the rubber isolator put more stress on the aluminum mounting ears and possibly cause cracks or failure in the castings?

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 18 2022, 04:03 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14748 - Sorry, I should have been more clear: I'm only substituting the metal to serve as a temporary fixture to locate and ensure the top plate is dead even with the base of the aluminum mounting ears. Once welding is complete on the cradle mounts, the spacer comes out and the factory rubber mounts go back in.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 19 2022, 05:56 PM

Today was committing to the drive train position and getting the engine mounts welded to the cradle.
First up was making the above-mentioned spacer set up to substiture for the Ferrari engine mount and serve as the positioning fixture.
I plasma cut a couple appropriate plates and, unbelieveably, found the perfect sized spacer in the scrap pile! Karma, baby!
Here's the spacer set up next to the Ferrari mount. Note, both are upside down.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 19 2022, 06:00 PM

Next was to get the drive train suspended in the proper location - that was fun...
Once that was set up and all levels and angles were checked and rechecked, the engine mount top plates were tacked to the upper cradle bars. Then the cradle was removed from the car for bench welding.

The first step there was to level the top plates to each other and verifiy them as level to the main cross bar. Yep, everything check out just as hoped expected.
Then the side plates got squared and clamped and all those parts tacked in place.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 19 2022, 06:01 PM

On to making up some gussets for the side plates and fixturing them for tacking.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 19 2022, 06:04 PM

The side plate gussets got the edge router treatment, as well as some corner cut outs to help prevent trapping stuff that may find it's way in there.
Yep, style points for stuff no one will ever see. It's how we do things "At the Red Barn".

(What could those quotes possibly imply...?)


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 19 2022, 06:07 PM

Final welding yet to go but here it is: the Ferrari engine cradle.
That was WAY more complicated and WAY more work that I'd ever imagined it would be.

But the good news is this means that tomorrow, the drive train will be fully mounted in the chassis and it'll be on to the next chapter of the build!


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Dec 20 2022, 08:22 AM

Posted by: KELTY360 Dec 20 2022, 09:14 AM

DaVinci would approve.

Maybe the car should be named Leonardo.....or at least the drive train cradle.

Posted by: Tferrer Dec 20 2022, 10:13 AM

Beautiful work. You better be careful, Chris- Before you know it you'll have a wait list for folks wanting one of your builds!

Posted by: Steve Dec 20 2022, 10:35 AM

Sad... but that drive train is cheaper than a 993 3.6 motor and 915 trans.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/354286038626?hash=item527d17ee62:g:aawAAOSwca9jJsXP&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8PjFFMAseKGAe0TXUq62fxTCgA%2BjmOL%2FkV334Rgde% 2BoLtKsYwjM3UcS3jkgt7fiYNcwZWidM0yvFWluuAGbKBe0dfWjCi2F9GwOmw69DPKbYg7Fmx1L8EQ1H
087ExFa% 2Fi6VclwyQ1UAbVh5Bef3SrcqrJf8QUuslcGiHf7qbLRNhctzkPnnGLRfPjCukEMUl26MQcLV26RcLNe
H79nBaIAv82c1jqdNdJzqWnglIgfvUzEdGWoSvwIr8hEn02VxL7WNkcg1lPm%2Bbx8EIZYwvf2xoAtaZUmhgc5xmrY03EJLIUYw2SKlo7nEh%2BbqDwUN22w%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM-O6ThqZh

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 20 2022, 01:16 PM

Posted by: NARP74 Dec 20 2022, 03:51 PM

I might have missed a page or 2, did you cover the metal router at all? Love the way it looks after you run it on some of the parts.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 20 2022, 04:04 PM

Well, sorta/maybe. Not to argue price points but it's important to consider that particular trans is missing it's near-unobtainium shifter mechanism. NLA and the one company that makes the parts charges ~$20k +. It's missing its ECUs, yes, two of them. About $2500 each. Engine harnesses, etc. etc. So plan to add a lot to that $20K asking price. You may have seen the new 360 crate engine that just sold for $30K on BAT.
Then there's the fact that a whole lot more people want a 3.6/915 than want a 360! It's all about the market...

Posted by: siverson Dec 20 2022, 04:05 PM

"The item might not fit."

haha.

-Steve


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 20 2022, 04:11 PM

Every weld matters. Credit where credit is due. This is Martin's work. And you wonder why I can't seem to say "no, I'll weld it..."


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 20 2022, 04:13 PM

Teaser shot: that right there is "in" the car, unsupported by anything but its fasteners.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 20 2022, 04:17 PM

It's official: The drive train is mounted in the car!

Holy Jebus, that was a ton more complicated than I ever imagined. But we got it done! A major milestone, for sure.

Anyway, may I present what I believe is the world's only 360 914.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 20 2022, 04:20 PM

The end. Currently my favorite view. I'll remove the paint from the script and the horse, just to make it a bit more visible. But what are the odds this is what peeks out from under the bumper when you mount it in a 914. Like it was made to be, I tell ya'!

Phase 1 done. On to the headers/exhaust.


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Posted by: NARP74 Dec 20 2022, 04:24 PM

Art takes time, no way to rush it. Fantastic!

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 20 2022, 04:29 PM

Clearly, the ebay algorithm isn't keeping up with 914world ...

Posted by: Krieger Dec 20 2022, 04:57 PM

freakin' A! I love it! Fantastic work Chris and Martin!

Posted by: markhoward Dec 20 2022, 05:21 PM

Congrats Chris! Major milestone indeed!!

Posted by: Krieger Dec 20 2022, 05:38 PM

freakin' A! I love it! Fantastic work Chris and Martin!

Posted by: slowrodent Dec 20 2022, 05:39 PM

Two words.... Rumble Seat

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 20 2022, 05:53 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24549 - Here's a pic of the router. This is from when I used it on my LS car's trans mount. Available on Amazon for not much!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08SBRZCRF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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Posted by: decisive1 Dec 20 2022, 09:34 PM

Wow, just wow....

(subscribed needless to say, thanks for the stimulation)

Posted by: ManuFromParis Dec 21 2022, 02:24 AM

Amazing job, I was wondering how you mounted the front brackets, now I know. Great job !

I am still concerned with the exhaust since both side supports looks pretty much in the way. It will be 100% custom I assume. Can't wait.

Posted by: NARP74 Dec 21 2022, 09:45 AM

I love it, thanks for sharing.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 10:12 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3898 Robert timed his visit perfectly! He stopped by yesterday in time to witness the moment the car was lowered to the ground for the very first time with its drive train mounted. And then he forced us to pose for a pic.

For those of you who've not had the pleasure of meeting him, that's Martin on the right.

And can I just say what a great "partner in crime" he is? Always willing to help but equally important, he spends LOTS of time thinking about what I'm trying to do and offers tons of input (and his wonderfully inspired sketches!). He brings decades of motorsport-related design and fabrication experience to everything he does.

We make a great team in that our skill sets nicely compliment each other - I'm into the CAD/plasma table/modern electronic stuff and he sketches, old school, makes ridiculously cool stuff on a manual lathe and mill and, of course, TIG welds like no other. Yes, I admit it: his TIG welding is my personal form of crack - I want to stop using but I just can't!

But what knowing Martin has REALLY taught me is patience and a "do it right" approach. All of my fabrication skills have greatly improved watching and/or working with him over the years.

I'm proud to call Martin a trusted friend and he's certainly a key contributor to the madness that's always happening at The Red Barn.

Thanks Martin. It simply wouldn't be the same without you!


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Posted by: SirAndy Dec 21 2022, 11:05 AM

Man, i hate my brain ...


Looks like the engine/trans is off to the left from the center line of the car.

I really hope that's just due to Roberts photography skills.


PS: And while i'm at it, that engine lid cutout should really follow the contour of the upper intake and not just be square like that.

PPS: Ok, i stop now

Posted by: NARP74 Dec 21 2022, 11:57 AM

Parallax? Kindig just did a scalloped hood that followed the 8 stacks coming out of the hood on a CF1. I did not think I would like it until I saw the finished product and I did like it.

This is really picking nits...

Posted by: plymouth37 Dec 21 2022, 12:16 PM

Amazing!

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 12:18 PM

As always, 914 World proves to be a tough crowd! But seriously, I'd expect nothing less. You know I welcome all input and observation.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 Andy - The drive train and its mounts measure centered in the chassis. That said, interestingly, the trans mount bushing doesn't center in the trans bung and it's forcing the trans a tic to the left. You can see that in the gaps at the trans mount. I'll correct that when I replace that bushing. And it doesn't help that the back of the trans isn't symetric - from particular perspectives, things can look off. I'll get a top-down pic that'll really mess with you!
RE: the cut out, that was done months ago, just to get clearance and before I knew for sure where the engine would end up, height-wise.
I think we're well enough acquainted that I can say, "a little credit please. The final product will have an opening of approriate shape and size to earn the expected 'style points'."

Posted by: Montreal914 Dec 21 2022, 12:58 PM

Is the goal to show the Raspberry Porrari at RR-VII?

Fantastic work, and very nice stance as-is

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 02:05 PM

It's not a perfect representation, but...
When the trans hanger rubber mount is replaced and centered, it'll cause the drive train to rotate counter-clockwise around the engine mounts and move the trans to the right, nicely centering everything.

Here you can see how asymetric the trans tail cover is. Yes, that means the peek-a-boo view of the script and horse won't be under the center of the bumper. Just more stuff that'll mess with folks when they see the car.

And before you scratch your head too much, note that this part of the trans wasn't visible in the 360 - it was screened in.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 02:44 PM

Road's eye view.
All the eyeballing and guestimeasuring worked out. The cradle sits just a tic lower than the drive train, just as planned.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 02:50 PM

OK, so I lied. The drive train isn't fully mounted.
I still need to work up an attachement point for the lower trans "pivot mount". The plan is it will be a separate piece that bolts to the rear of the cradle at the lower threaded bung, runs to a cross bar here where a set of tabs will pick up this mount, then back up the other side to the cradle. Triangulation will be added from this mount's cross bar to the chassis - exact location tbd.


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Posted by: mgarrison Dec 21 2022, 03:47 PM

Simply amazing...

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 05:42 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21433 - Fear not, my friend. Here's the slightly modified factory header mocked in place - plenty of room to get past the plate on the suspension consoles. And yes, it'll be 100% from scratch. Not really any other options.


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Posted by: tygaboy Dec 21 2022, 05:45 PM

Back to the pivot linkage's mount. Version 1 mock up, just to see what might work. Ideally, this piece will do double duty as a mount for the rear portion of the skid plate and the potential rear diffuser.


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Posted by: BuddyV Dec 21 2022, 11:27 PM

.... Germans.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 22 2022, 03:04 PM

Congrats on a HUGE milestone.

Clay

Posted by: PlaysWithCars Dec 23 2022, 05:19 PM

Couldn't let this go without acknowledgement. That there is funny. @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=16100

Everything in this build is moving so fast I think it got lost in the dust. impressive build.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 25 2022, 09:07 AM

Merry, merry from the Red Barn! As we wrap up the year, can I just say how much I appreciate this community and each of its wacky and wonderful members?

And a quick heads up that 2023 will see the launch of "At The Red Barn", a bit more polished effort at a YouTube channel.

I've found I really enjoy the creative process of video-making. As with the other stuff you've seen me try and learn, the early stuff will likely be a bit bumpy, but I expect I'll get better as I go along.

If you've enjoyed my 914 World threads, I'm pretty sure you'll like what you see on At The Red Barn, too.

I'll post a link to the channel as soon as it's operational. Hope to hear from you there!

A safe and happy holiday to you and yours!




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Posted by: FL000 Dec 25 2022, 01:57 PM

Looking forward to checking out the new channel. Need some good fabrication videos to binge on.

Posted by: Rleog Dec 25 2022, 02:17 PM

How steep is the learning curve on Wondershare Filmora?

Posted by: mgp4591 Dec 26 2022, 01:03 AM

Cool! Are you gonna have a live band too? Couldn't hurt your ratings...

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 26 2022, 09:27 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1239 - I found it super easy and intuitive. I like to think I'm pretty good figuring out software but this was pretty simple. For example, I'd think something like "It'd be really neat to separate the audio from the video..." A right click on the track and sure enough, there's "detach audio". Perfect!
I haven't yet needed it more than a couple times but there are a lots of YouTube tutorial vids on the product.
All that said, I'm also a newbie and I'm not looking to go too crazy and distract-y with fancy stuff. But for what I think I want to deliver, I'm really happy with the product.

The acid test will be what all y'all think of the end result once I launch! I hope to enjoy it and I look forward to your constructive critisism.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 26 2022, 09:38 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14748 - Funny you mention this! I was the lead singer / bass player in a couple bands, back in the day. Here we are rehearsing in the living room - me singing - before I'd officially taken over bass duty - and when I still had hair, lots and lots of hair!

I have a fun story about nearly becoming a rock star. If you can place the guitarist on the right, you'll have an idea of my near brush with fame...

Anyway, last week I mentioned to one of my musician buddies that we may need to create some original music for the channel. If we do, I'll get footage of that.


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Posted by: mgp4591 Dec 26 2022, 02:00 PM

Chris, he looks familiar but I really can't place him...plus all you California teens looked alike! You've got some good gear there though...I'm jealous!

Posted by: Front yard mechanic Dec 26 2022, 04:23 PM

Bon Jovi

Posted by: mgp4591 Dec 27 2022, 12:10 AM

Edit

Posted by: mgp4591 Dec 27 2022, 12:12 AM

Edit

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 27 2022, 09:40 AM

OK, "At The Red Barn" is live on YouTube!
Here are links to a quick intro and the first two episodes of the 914 Ferrari build.

Hope you enjoy and if you do, please subscribe, like and share?
Feel free to add comments and ask questions there, too.

Intro to At The Red Barn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3GYAFsJmo


914 Ferrari Episode 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMj1Bq2IShw


914 Ferrari Episode 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAdV6dRyxfc

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 27 2022, 10:09 AM

You can directly embed YouTube videos (3rd topic under HELP):
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=94568

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 27 2022, 10:15 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 Andy - yep, I usually do it that way. Corrected, thanks.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 29 2022, 11:00 AM

Since this thread is ahead of the published videos - and I have a number of episodes "in the can" - I've decided to help the video viewers catch up. I'll be publishing everything I have over the next few days.

Here's the next episode and thanks for watching!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzxQ2l6qdis

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 29 2022, 12:54 PM

A few observations:

- The music is too loud when compared to the speech sections. I had to fiddle with the volume adjust every time you switched to music (yeah, i'm getting old).

- You are making this weird clicking sound between sentences. It's very distracting. Most noticeable in episode #1. I don't recall you doing this when talking to you in person. Maybe it's because you're nervous filming?

Posted by: infraredcalvin Dec 29 2022, 04:03 PM

Leave the links, as well as the embed, can’t see any videos on iPad….

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 29 2022, 04:39 PM

These vids are great Chris. We have not met but deep respect coming your way for what you are attempting and achieving.

Posted by: Van B Dec 29 2022, 10:40 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 any idea why embeds don’t show up on an ipad?

Posted by: SirAndy Dec 29 2022, 11:33 PM

Yes. Apple has stopped being HTML compliant quite a few years ago. They are pushing their own proprietary implementations.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Dec 30 2022, 01:20 AM

It’s just Safari that doesn’t show them. Download chrome app and it works.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 30 2022, 11:36 AM

The next episode is now available. Again, I'm playing catch up to bring the videos up to date with this build thread.
At over 20 minutes, this episode is a bit longer than the earlier ones. Reason is because I demo roll bending the trans mount tube. Some folks have asked that I detail more of the "how" so I'm giving it a go with this one. Hope you enjoy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rspEm9e8APc

Posted by: Craigers17 Dec 30 2022, 12:56 PM

Provided that it drains really well before you take it off, that seems like a great place for an oil filter. If it doesn't drain well, ...could be messy. The access is great though.

BTW....who's the mystery guitarist?...you can't leave us in suspense.

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 30 2022, 01:20 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 - Jeff - Wow, I'm humbled. That's high praise coming from you, thanks! You're close enough to swing by some time and see all this stuff in person. If that's of interest, let me know and let's get something on calendar?

Posted by: tygaboy Dec 30 2022, 01:29 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21317 - The oil filters are made with an "anti-puke" tube inside them that retains the oil when removed. Special made for the upside down installation.

As to the guitarist, his name is Dave Bryson - he's a founding member of Counting Crows. We were room mates for a bit and played together in a number of bands. I sold out and got a corporate job. But let's be clear: I was never going to be a good enough bassist to play at that level. But what great time we had...

Posted by: Craigers17 Dec 30 2022, 04:33 PM

That's really cool! The Counting Crows were one of my favorite 90's bands. Pretty interesting on that oil filter too....I know the mess I normally make when I change the oil, and I was just picturing that spilling out onto that beautiful engine. I guess Ferrari had it all figured out....even if they never suspected their engine would end up in a 914.

Posted by: Geezer914 Jan 1 2023, 08:51 AM

This build is truly a work of art!!! The design and fabrication is over the top.

Posted by: 76-914 Jan 1 2023, 09:42 AM

Cold saw? Do tell. I missed class that day. Also, you mention that the suspension console ear interferes with the headers but on the previous page it "appears" that it clears. BTW, your "going into detail" makes the subject much more interesting. And that curvy tool could come in handy doing bodywork.

Posted by: tygaboy Jan 1 2023, 10:01 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9964 Kent - Glad you're enjoying. You better have "liked and subscribed"!
Based on additional feedback like yours, I'm going to start covering more detail about the "how" and show/describe the tools during use. But until then:
The cold saw uses a low rpm (like 65), fluid-cooled blade that makes a spark and burr-free, cut that, because of the coolant, essentially stays "cold".
And you're ahead on the header info because you've seen the build thread. Remember how I had to cut off the flange and move the primary tubes forward by two cylinders?
The video is from before doing that. Thanks for watching!

Posted by: 76-914 Jan 1 2023, 10:47 AM

Oops! And yes, subscribed.

Posted by: tygaboy Jan 3 2023, 05:56 PM

Back to some real work. Today I deceided to make the suspension console/rear cradle mount boxing panel.
First was to final check the cardboard template and remember to add some additional length so each lower leg reaches the bottom of the mount pickup point plate.
Some careful measuring and a bit of CAD work later and I had what I needed to cut the part on the plasma table.
Then it's measure to determine where that break needed to be added using the brake... wait, what?


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Posted by: tygaboy Jan 3 2023, 06:00 PM

Maybe a bit hard to tell from the pics but it fits really nicely and gives what I think is a nicely "completed" look of that area. I think I'll make a stamping die and add a relief that copies the look of those stamped into the shock tower sheet metal.


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Posted by: Van B Jan 3 2023, 06:22 PM

Trying to avoid a thread jack here, but chrome is what I use.

Posted by: Van B Jan 3 2023, 06:23 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19241 what kind of a press break do you have? Those bends are super clean!

Posted by: tygaboy Jan 3 2023, 06:47 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 I have one of these: a 48" magnetic brake.


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