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Posted by: Jaiden Aug 4 2005, 06:00 AM

The PO has put synthetic in the case of My Type IV since he got it.

The motor drips a little. Is synthetic to thin? Should I keep going synthetic?

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 4 2005, 06:17 AM

valvoline 20W50

Posted by: SGB Aug 4 2005, 06:45 AM

I use Castrol 5W50. Ran mobil 1 for a few years and leaked more (maybe even burned more). I can't say that I noticed any difference in engine behavior. I think I get quieter startups with castrol- it is definitely thicker at low temp.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 4 2005, 06:47 AM

5 weight???!!!

that's nuts.

Posted by: URY914 Aug 4 2005, 06:49 AM

I believe Jake's dyno test proved Royal Purple to provide the best results.

But I use Wong Hung Lo's Karma Sutra Super Slick Formula #2 Oil.


Paul

Posted by: SGB Aug 4 2005, 07:08 AM

Britt-
I'm pretty sure the spec is for straight 50 weight. It gets plenty hot round here, and I don't feel any concern. Been running 50 or 5W50 in VW flat fours for 25 years without problems.

Posted by: 9146986 Aug 4 2005, 07:21 AM

Multiviscosity oils have a tendency to breakdown faster than single viscosity oils. Since most 914's leak some oil it's always easier on the pocketbook and garage floor to go with the less expensive oil, especially if you are a frequent oil changer.

Posted by: Jaiden Aug 4 2005, 07:22 AM

SO I guess that synthetic is the Choice but I have to make sure that it's a 50 weight synthetic AKA 5w-50.

Now is the valvoline 20w- 50 synthetic because that sounds like a good weight for my lightly dripping type IV.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 4 2005, 07:24 AM

Valvoline full syn or Royal Purple syn.

if you want to go Dino, go Kendall 20-50... gud stuff!

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 4 2005, 07:28 AM

i thought synthetic was bad for the seals.....

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 4 2005, 07:31 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 4 2005, 08:28 AM)

i thought synthetic was bad for the seals.....

that's some PITA BS... only clubs are bad for seals

if the seals are good, syn is good

if you start leaking by switching to syn, you need to fix the leak, not switch back to dino.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 4 2005, 07:38 AM

okay.

learning more and more.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 4 2005, 07:46 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 4 2005, 05:38 AM)

okay. learning more and more.

When I do a build up of a new motor I'll use Synthetic.

Posted by: Mark Henry Aug 4 2005, 08:04 AM

Dino use Shell Rottilla T diesel oil...Valvoline and Kendal are also good.

Syn I use the Valvoline, a lot of guys rave about royal purple but I haven't tried it because its spendy and hard to get here.

Weight is a debate that can start flame wars...I use a bit lighter weight than you southern boys. Most of my engines use the Shell Rottilla T diesel oil 15w40.

Posted by: davep Aug 4 2005, 08:27 AM

Usual spec is for 30W oil. Older engines tend to leak a lot with synthetic. Perhaps a fresh engine, once broken in, could use synthetic successfully. Perhaps a partial synthetic blend might work better. High and low temperature climes would likely have to use multiweight or adjust to different single weight oils.

Personally, I don't think synthetic is cost effective in these engines. Starting in the dead of winter is a possible exception, but we don't do that anymore do we!

Posted by: Jaiden Aug 4 2005, 09:16 AM

Now what about those High milage mixes?

I have no idea how many miles are on the motor in my car.

Hell I don't know how many miles are on the chassis.

But the motor is out of a 75 2.0 and it looks pretty good but I'm not sure if it was ever gone through

Posted by: Lyressa Roberts Aug 4 2005, 09:22 AM

I use 0W30 Mobil 1 Synthetic for my 2.0 and I have NO leaks. My only leak is in my trani.

Posted by: Rand Aug 4 2005, 09:23 AM

Nothing wrong with the factory's suggestion, regardless of mileage. In my climate, that's Castrol 30W.

Posted by: Rog914 Aug 4 2005, 10:18 AM

Put Royal Purple in my 74 2.0 when I got it. No leaks. Switched to synthetic on one of my new cars and noticed a big difference when I went to get emissions test, dropped all values. I think if your having trouble passing emission test on dino oil, try synthetic oil and I bet you see a difference (run at least one oil change first with syn.).

Ralph

74 2.0

Posted by: dmenche914 Aug 4 2005, 10:37 AM

synthetic in my 914 and 356, but I do not use it in cars that are big leakers (for economic reasons) nor in my Bug which i have yet to ad an oil filter (hence the oil is changed every 1000-1500 miles) In the 914 I go 3000-4000 max miles on oil changes with the sythetic. I do not like the idea of the claims of 10000 mile life of the oil cuase

our engines tend to run hotter than newer water cooled cars, and the clearances are not as tight so combustion gasses tend to get into the oil. thus I believe the oil is not clean enough after than many miles, or has the potential to be worn out (thats just a hunch on my part) to I will not do 10000 oil changes. I doubt I'd go that far even on a new car (If I ever buy one, like hell will freeze first)

So synthetic is great, it keeps the rockers clean, no dirt build up after 174000 miles of synthetic use on a Vanagon (water cooled 2.1 l) I have never seem a dino engine with the valve covers off look this clean after that many miles.

Sythetic is too expensive however if you do very frequent oil changes, burn or leak excessive oil.

I Run Mobil One 15W50 in my 914, but swithed to Valvoline full sythetic 20W50 in the Vanagon do to low oil pressure (hey, didn't say it was perfect after 174000 miles)

When experimenting with different oils, be sure to have a pressure gage hooked up, it is very useful in determining the correct weight for you driving conditions, and can alert you to problems before they become very expensive problems. An oil temp gage is also nice to have, but pressure I think is the best gage to have if you only run one of the two, as if the oil gets too hot, it will show as a pressure drop. a temp gage will not show a sudden loss in oil pressure until too late.

good luck in you selection.

But do not freak out to much about it, our engines are happy with either type of oil, they like generally the thicker stuff (the thin gas saving oils are too thin, an oil pressure gage will show that). and they really love frequent oil changes (and valve adjustments)
Also 914's are best run with OEM type filters use Mann or Mahle brand and you are safe. Fram brand 914 filters are junk, have had the insides come apart twice on me. The OEM type German filters are built better, have more material in them, and I have never had one come apart on me like the orange Fram filters. I cringe everytime I see an Orange filter hung under a 914 or VW Bus engine.

Posted by: balljoint Aug 4 2005, 10:59 AM

Castor oil is very expensive, and not recommended for automotive applications.


AND, as anyone who knows any French will tell you, Castor oil is made from freshly squeezed Beavers, as found on the Canadian $0.05 piece.




I like to use synthetic blends myself, not too $$$, and I just use the recommended 30W.

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 4 2005, 11:25 AM

I live by Royal Purple 20/50 full synthetic.

I have went up to 18K miles and never changed it in my 912E... Its used it since its conception in 2002- 84K miles ago....

Since the engine in that car is nearing its 100K teardown and soup up I have decided NOT to change the oil any more until the engine dies....

Thats how much I believe in it based on prior experiences and my own test results.

I have been gathering oils from various Mfr's for a "Re-do" of my oil tests that I did in 2002, but much more extensive now that I have the datalogger.

Posted by: bondo Aug 4 2005, 12:04 PM

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 4 2005, 10:25 AM)

I have been gathering oils from various Mfr's for a "Re-do" of my oil tests that I did in 2002, but much more extensive now that I have the datalogger.

Cool! Are you going to test Rotella T Synthetic? (I ask because it's cheap at wal-mart.. $13 a gallon)

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 4 2005, 12:16 PM

Yep- They already sent me a case of it...

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 4 2005, 12:22 PM

QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 4 2005, 01:04 PM)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 4 2005, 10:25 AM) I have been gathering oils from various Mfr's for a "Re-do" of my oil tests that I did in 2002, but much more extensive now that I have the datalogger. Cool! Are you going to test Rotella T Synthetic? (I ask because it's cheap at wal-mart.. $13 a gallon)

I don't think Rotella -T is synthetic... I could be wrong though... it is a diesel oil.

Posted by: Mike D. Aug 4 2005, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 4 2005, 05:46 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 4 2005, 05:38 AM) okay. learning more and more. When I do a build up of a new motor I'll use Synthetic.

Only use syth oil in a new motor after break in. Otherwise the break in time will be longer.

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Aug 4 2005, 01:50 PM

For what it worth...."Synthetic" oil IS "DINO" oil.. it's just much more highly refined.

Oil is made up of long, medium, and short chain molecules. The more long chain molecules, the higher the viscosity (tougher to "untangle" them).


Synthetics (at least in the Car and Driver article I read when they first hit the market) are the result of filtering out all the medium and short chain oil molecules through lots of expensive refining.

When oil it stressed by temperature and pressure, the chains get sheared into smaller chains (viscosity lowers proportionally). The ability for the oil to maintain a thick film between 2 moving parts diminishes also. It's a numbers game, the more long chains you start with, the higher the probability over time (before it all leaks out on the transaxle and muffler) you have of more long chains at any given moment.

I've never heard of Synthetics being more likely to leak past seals. (I'm no expert however). It would seem to me, if what Car and Driver was saying, the long chain molecules would actually be LESS likely to leak past seals, or porous castings since they are bigger??!! Or is it the case that the same guys who run the synthetics, proportionally beat the shit out of their engines thinking they have a little more "insurance"???

2cents...

Posted by: airsix Aug 4 2005, 02:32 PM

I voted for synthetic because I'm running a turbo.

As far as "synthetics leak more", that's not an issue any more. When synthetics first showed up on the shelf at your local FLAPS there were some seal issues, not because the oil was synthetic, but because of the additive recipes being used. This was straightened out years ago by all the brands and isn't an issue today. Synthetic oil = better oil. Period. That's the good news. Bad news is that it's expensive (my daily driver takes 8 quarts at a change. Ugh.).

-Ben M.

Posted by: bondo Aug 4 2005, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 4 2005, 11:22 AM)

QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 4 2005, 01:04 PM) QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 4 2005, 10:25 AM) I have been gathering oils from various Mfr's for a "Re-do" of my oil tests that I did in 2002, but much more extensive now that I have the datalogger. Cool! Are you going to test Rotella T Synthetic? (I ask because it's cheap at wal-mart.. $13 a gallon) I don't think Rotella -T is synthetic... I could be wrong though... it is a diesel oil.

They make both.. white bottle - dino... blue bottle - synthetic.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 4 2005, 03:41 PM

QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 4 2005, 03:47 PM)

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 4 2005, 11:22 AM) QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 4 2005, 01:04 PM) QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 4 2005, 10:25 AM) I have been gathering oils from various Mfr's for a "Re-do" of my oil tests that I did in 2002, but much more extensive now that I have the datalogger. Cool! Are you going to test Rotella T Synthetic? (I ask because it's cheap at wal-mart.. $13 a gallon) I don't think Rotella -T is synthetic... I could be wrong though... it is a diesel oil. They make both.. white bottle - dino... blue bottle - synthetic.

ok, my bad!

hadn't seen the synthetic!

Posted by: Brother Oct 29 2006, 01:59 PM

year old bump for this thread.

I'll try to find some royal purple locally. If not, mobil 1 will do.

I agree that some of the cheap oil filters are crap, but what do you guys think about the newer k&N and mobil 1 oil filters compared to the OE types. I know some guys hate change, but the new stuff should be better.

It will be interesting to get some oil analysis done on this car.

Posted by: cnavarro Oct 29 2006, 02:31 PM

The mobil 1 oil filter is the best quality spin on you're going to find; the K&N might be a little bit better built, but it lacks the filtration of the m1 and is focused on flow.

If you can't get RP locally, Jegs is a good source. I'd recommend the max cycle 20w50 RP, more anti-wear additives.

Posted by: pfierb Oct 29 2006, 03:52 PM

Bought a NAPA gold oil filter for my Mercedes,cartridge type, what a piece of junk made in India stamped on it ......very uneven and crude looking pleats ,end plates ragged....took it right back. Won't use anything but the good German OEM filters in my cars now.Castrol 20-50 in the 914.Oh yes the NAPA filter was more money than the OEM filter.

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Oct 30 2006, 12:38 PM

Mobile 1 15/50 for me. Although Royal Purple is easier to see on the dip stick.
Elliot

Posted by: ChrisNPDrider Oct 30 2006, 02:45 PM

I had my motor installed by a 914 mechanic with lots of aircooled porsche experience and he filled it with MOTUL 6100 20-50W and I have been going back to him to buy the stuff. He is a "distrubutor" and sells me the gallon for $20, and I got some free stickers! Any leaking sticks to the case, no drips from engine.

Posted by: pbanders Oct 30 2006, 06:11 PM

Looks like whether it's "true synthetic" or derived from mineral oil depends on the product brand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

Posted by: Brother Oct 30 2006, 07:36 PM

Thanks for the Jegs source. I think NAPA usually carries it.

I did the first oil change today. I used M1 15-50 with a Mobil 1 filter. I agree that M1 makes a great filter. I think a bypass setup is the best, but that is money, space, and weight.

What is up with the oil filter location. I have SSI's so getting the filter off was insane. I felt like I was going to break the clutch cable trying to get the old one off and the new one in. Is there a better way then just forcing it between the HE and the clutch cable?

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 12 2007, 08:53 PM

I did a 3,450 mile cross country test in May of 06 and tested 5 different oils.. Pre and post analysis was done as well as 24 channels of data acquisition during the test..

.........I'm still standing by my Royal purple! One oil shiowed less wear material than the Royal Purple on this test, and we are doing further tests between the two to try and find the differences or note some trends that led up to this..

I'll be doing further oil testing in the new lab soon, we have a desire to find the oil that frees up the most power and provides the least wear material in post analysis... To date I have not gathered any power figures during oil testing, the new lab is the perfect environment for this type of test work..

To date I have logged 121K miles on the engine in my 912E, thats since September of 2002.. every one of those has been on Royal Purple.

I have went a maximum of 23K miles on a single oil change with the Royal Purple in that engine. In 10,000 miles i **might** burn 1 Qt of oil!

Posted by: Joe Ricard Feb 13 2007, 06:24 AM

Oil change is always RP with new filter (walmart brand). Engine has decided to start leaking a bit (maybe I shouldn't beat it so much). so I add Rotella when required because of the zinc additive. The only day my engine will ever get a break is when I pull it and replace it with my new one.

Posted by: cnavarro Feb 13 2007, 03:48 PM

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

It's the culmination of thousands of dollars of testing and hundreds of hours of research.

Let me clear the air on some of the suggestions. Castrol Syntec 5w50 has one of the lowest TBN and lowest Zn and P levels of any oil I tested. Don't use it in your aircooled engine. Better off with Castrol GTX 20w50 or even better, GTX High Mileage.

If you like the old-school Kendall, the new stuff is not it. You can get the old green stuff under the Brad-Penn/Penn-Grade label - Racing 20w50. I think it's one of the best dino oils money can buy.

I don't think most old type 4's should run anything thinner than 15w40 unless your engine is tighter than....

Posted by: cnavarro Feb 13 2007, 03:49 PM

Use a good filter - i.e. a k&n gold or even better, the mobil 1 branded filter. At the bare minimum, use a good oe mahle or mann. Without good filtration, might as well be running dollar store oil.

Posted by: sww914 Feb 13 2007, 08:12 PM

I started using synthetic years ago after I had to help clean the track twice, once dino oil and once synth. The Mobil1 was way more slippery than the dino oil was, we were all slipping around trying to sweep the track. I figure if it's that slick on dirty asphalt, imagine what it can do for the inside of your engine.
I won't run synth until after break in, on one engine the rings never seated when I started out with Mobil1, but they seated right away with the super cheap stuff (non detergent) at first and then Castrol for the rest of the break in.
Since I've been running Mobil1 I haven't blown up an engine.

BTW I knew 3 guys who were running Kendall in their racecars and all 3 of them grenaded engines regularly. There's no proof that it was the oil, but it left a bad taste in my mouth.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 14 2007, 12:16 AM

The old Kendall used to be the only stuff recommended by two local Porsche pros that I really trust. Then Kendall went and reformulated, and I've still got a few quarts of their non-green stuff left...

Glad to hear that it's available again under a different name! That was pretty good stuff. But I think I'll stick with Rotella T (non-synthetic) for my 914, now.

--DD

Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 14 2007, 09:54 AM

The Brad Penn IS the OLD Kendall..

This is proven.

Charles and I have worked together for 18months on this oil stuff and he has put a ton of time into research while I have tested and provided post analysis samples as well as data for the work..

Soon we'll be topping the tests off with power tests from the new lab and more samples and data acquisition at various oil temperatures. In the new lab I have the capability to set an oil temperature and MAINTAIN that temperature despite load, RPM, ambient conditions and etc. I can set one temp and the system keeps the oil that temp! I integrated this primarily to provide an equal testing field for all engines and changes without the temp of the oil playinga rold in our findings, creatibg a variable.

Posted by: toon1 Feb 14 2007, 10:08 AM

I run R.P. in both my vehichles, per Jake.

good stuff, not cheap.

Posted by: Coy Feb 14 2007, 05:15 PM

CNavarro,

Your work was very informative. I think I learned a lot by reading it. Next oil change I plan to switch to Castrol High Mileage 15/50 & Mobile 1 filter; I currently run Castrol SAE 30 with Napa gold filter, I guess just because that's what the previous owner used to run in it before I bought it.

My question is about change intervals. I usually change my oil every 3-4 months, and very rarely reach 3000 miles. I don't drive anything very often, because I work at home and have a family. When I go someplace I usually have to take 4 seats, and if the weather's good, I try to find time to ride a couple of motorcycles too (everything needs to get run as often as possible). According to your material it's not actually good to change oil too often, but doesn't breakdown occur due to chemicals left behind from combustion in the engine regardless of mileage? Is it Okay to wait until you reach 3000 miles even if it takes 4-6 months?

Thanks for the information so-far!

Posted by: cnavarro Feb 15 2007, 07:59 AM

I would continue to change the oil every 3 months, if using a non-synthetic, like Castrol GTX High Mileage 20w50 - it's the moisture in the engine that breaks down the oil more than anything. On my not-so-daily driver I barely put 2,000 mi in 3 months on it because of very short drives, and change it using the manufacturer specified non-syn every 3 months regardless.

My reference to changing the oils too much goes to the Porsche 356 guys, who change their oil every 1000 mi. Alternatively, I have heard of people who drive thousands of miles a week. They change their oil every 3,000 mi, which might only be a week or a week and a half. They would be better running a better filter and better oil, and going for longer drain intervals.

It all has to do with your driving habits. If all you do is short drives and never get the oil hot >210F for a prolonged period of time, sludge forms and moisture wreaks havoc on the oil. That's why I recommend the 3 month time frame. But if you don't drive it often, but when you do, you get it nice and hot and drive it for an extended period of time (no white/yellow gunk on the oil filler cap), I'd say you are safe doing a 6 month drain interval. This does not include winter months, just change it before bringing it out of hibernation.

Posted by: sww914 Feb 15 2007, 10:07 AM

Off Topic, but I did an engine swap in my friend's '94 toyota pickup in '04. It was a newspaper delivery vehicle that drove halfway across the state and back 7 days a week. They changed the oil every week. The engine that I removed had 749,000 miles on it in a 10 year old truck. This is not a second-hand story. I drove the truck into the shop, it ran fine but it wouldn't pass smog anymore. I drained the oil, the started it up with no oil and floored it, left it floored for 2 minutes but it wouldn't blow up!
I need to ask what kind of oil they used.

Posted by: Borderline Feb 15 2007, 10:48 AM

I remember Jake recommending Royal Purple 20w-50. LN Engineering had a pretty good article...sorry can't find the link. I always thought that with time the oils were getting better...not necessarily. They have changed formulations to help improve emissions. To do this they have reduced there wear fighting chemicals. If you don't have a catalityc converter try running a diesel oil! When I picked up my cam, Dima Elgin (local cam grinder) recommended Delo 400, 15w-40. The diesel oils still have the good stuff!

Posted by: cnavarro Feb 15 2007, 12:16 PM

Regarding the toyota, my grandfather had I think it was an 84 toyota pickup - needed a new tranny a like 350,000 and new engine at 450,000 - he drove that thing like a race car (he later had a miata before passing away). Damn fastest 70 yo I knew. Toyotas were built to last. I have a friend whose family owns lexuses (lexi?) and they had one of the first ls's and they hadn't changed the oil in it since it was new (had over 100,000 mi on it when I met him). Family still has it many, many thousands of miles later.

Posted by: sww914 Feb 15 2007, 06:36 PM

Ok, off topic again, but the same guy had a 70 something Ford Maverick. He didn't change the oil for 11 years. He didn't drive a lot, but still 100-150 miles a week. He took an auto repair class at the community college and decided to do his first oil change. He pulled the drain plug and a couple of minutes a BLOP of oil came out, it looked like Henry's roof repair tar.
It took 3 days for the stuff to drip out.

The seat cover wore out and he put a blanket over the bare springs, but eventually it wore through so he put another over the first, and so on, until the space between the floor and the springs was filled with enough blanket scraps that it would support the upper layers and the springs wouldn't wear through the blankets anymore.

Posted by: pfierb Feb 17 2007, 01:16 PM

This from this months issue of Sports car market magazine article by Gary Anderson. Modern oils don't cut it

Many modern oils are no longer suitable for old cars.Automotive technology and environmental concerns have caused changes in the way oils are now formulated,and even old brands of oil are very different from what they were when our cars were new.
To improve mileage and increase the life span of catalytic converters many of the old additives have been removed,especially those designed to protect the surfaces of the cams and flat-surface tappets in old engines.
In particular the additive Zinc-Dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) has gone, especially from lower-weight oils recommended for most modern cars.In conjunction with molybdenum,ZDDP maintains surfaces constantly rubbing against one another,but it isn't necessary in a modern roller rocker,variable-valve timing engine.
In a recent thread on several vintage racing and Healey online bulletin boards,the consensus was that we should seek out the few oils formulated for older cars that still have ZDDP.
Look for oils with ZDDP
These include Castrol GTX or High Mileage 20w50,Valvoline VR1 20w50 and boutique oils such as Royal Purple,Redline,Torco,Penrite or Amsoil in both 15w40 or 20w50 viscosities.Another good alternative is a diesel engine oil designed for vehicles without catalytic converters,such as Chevron Delo or Shell Rotella T, in a 15w40 or 20w50 weight.
The article goes on but the above I think is the most important part.

Paul F.

Posted by: davep Feb 18 2007, 07:50 AM

To add to what Paul is saying, I found this today on a Historic Racing list:

Oil is Killing our Cars

By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596


Oil is Killing our cars Part I



About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.



This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.



Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.



Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.



To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.



Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.



Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.



Next question: Now what do we do?



From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.



From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).



From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!



From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.



From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.



Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.



Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.



For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.



If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.



Oil is Killing our cars Part II



Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.



I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to “dump” Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn’t really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.



Now for the latest report:



#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.



#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.



#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.



#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.



#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.



#6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.



For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.



Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.

New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 18 2007, 10:16 AM

I like the Mobil One 15-50 AC motocycle oil running in my 914. Oil temps dropped on really hot days to 220-230F from 240F when using Castol GTX 20-50. I am getting a slight leak from the front seal thou.

Posted by: sww914 Feb 18 2007, 10:20 AM

From Mobil1's website, FAQ

Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?
Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago. TOO BAD IT"S TOO THICK FOR ME!

Posted by: cnavarro Feb 18 2007, 06:01 PM

I have tested every formulation from about 1996 forward - they all have the same additive levels. If there were any changes, there's nothing that shows up on an oil analysis. TBN and viscosities also remained consistent.

15w50 does have more Zn and P than the 0w40, but both are still significantly higher than most of the oils we tested.

I do have one beef with the "Oil is killing our cars" copy and paste - they state that castrol syntec 20w50 provides sufficient protection. First, they don't have a 20w50 - it's a 5w50, and it had one of the lowest TBN's as well as the lowest Zn and P levels of any of the oils I tested. I would say to use Castrol GTX 20w50 over Castrol Syntec any day.

I also should point out that all the diesel oils have been reformulated with the new CJ-4 standard and will have reduced levels of phosphorus, below that even of what Mobil 1 0w40 has.

Posted by: RoninEclipse2G Oct 20 2007, 04:07 PM

So no more diesel oil usage? stick with the mobil 1 15-50 or RP?

Posted by: JPB Oct 21 2007, 07:40 AM

Ther term of show me your castor is derived from this statement also.

I use seal oil. AAaaah yes, you all don't know this but there is seal oil which refreshes your seals so THEY WON'T LEAK!! Like the castor oil this oil comes from club seals. Ya know, the ones ya hit over the head with a club.

Posted by: cnavarro Oct 21 2007, 05:11 PM

For sake of not having another long oil thread, here are the oils I now recommend: Brad Penn 20w50 and Swepco 306 15w40. There are other oils with higher price points, but it's pretty damn hard to beat the Brad Penn. There is another oil thread going here, on 914club, Pelican Parts, and other forums - It's getting hard to remember where I've posted :-)

Posted by: brer Nov 4 2007, 09:20 PM

you are either joking or some frenchie has been fooling with you.

Posted by: Rand Nov 4 2007, 09:27 PM

Posted by: p914 Nov 6 2007, 07:02 PM

The Brad Penn partial synth looks great and has great reviews from Charles. I'm also looking at still using Mobil1 Synth 5w-30 and adding a product called ZddPlus as the Mobil 1 Synth runs cooler. Charles says he's testing the ZddPlus. Looking forward to hear about that from him. Just finishing off the break-in for my 2.0 to 2.7 rebuild using Havoline 20-50. Has SH and SJ API.

Also, I asked the Porsche Germany the question:
My questions are:
What oil weight and type does Porsche recommend for a 1975 Porsche 914 with a 2.0 liter engine?
Can Mobil 1 synthetic 5-30 be used or does it not have the proper ZDDP additive?

Porsche Classic from Germany responded:

Dear Sir,

thank you for your request.
We strongly advise against using synthetic oil as it would bear the risk of bad oil pressure and oil leakage.
Due to this fact we would recommend you to use "Castrol Classic 20 W - 50" for your vehicle.


Best regards

Florian Saeftel / Porsche Classic

Posted by: orthobiz Nov 2 2008, 09:40 PM

October 2008 Pano has an article on this.

For the 914:
Rotella T 15W-40 CI-4
Swepco 306 15W-40 CI4
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50
All dinosaur

Mobil 1 15W-50 EP (Enhanced Performance)
or 0W-40
Helix Ultra 5W-40

I just put the VR-1 in my 1.8 1974 for the winter storage routine.

Paul

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 03:51 AM

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 03:51 AM

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 03:51 AM

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 3 2008, 07:31 AM

Just in case you missed Jakes post the 3rd time here it is again

Posted by: Gint Nov 3 2008, 11:49 AM

What did he say?

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Nov 3 2008, 12:38 PM

Castrol, synthetic or straight, plain and simple.

Not to discredit Valvoline as its a good oil too; but I've run Castrol oil since I owned my first truck, and IMHO it's the best oil on the market. And maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention, but I've never once heard of any big issues with Castrol oil (as opposed to Pennzoil for example). For years I watched my dad use different oils in different things and he was never quite happy with them.

But in the nearly 11 years I've been driving and maintaining my own vehicles I've never had a single oil related issue using Castrol. And that's going from a '75 Chevy pick up to a '91 Corsica to an '87 Buick and now a '91 Ford pick up and a '73 Honda motorcycle.

It's a bit on the expensive side (per quart anyway) but IMO the extra money is worth it. So far, for me, Castrol has a proven track record and unless something big happens, I'll never use anything else.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 12:52 PM

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 12:52 PM

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 12:52 PM

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 3 2008, 12:57 PM

Sorry for the triple posts.. My ISP has some weird issues today.

I'd like to add that of the engines mentioned by the proponent of Castrol I only see one engine listed that utilizes flat tappet cam and lifter design. This means EVERYTHING when selecting the best oils as these components demand excellent lubrication.

Posted by: dw914er Nov 3 2008, 07:23 PM

Dino oil's for my 914

synthetic for my acura

Posted by: anderssj Nov 3 2008, 08:17 PM

I think the Pano info is a little dated. I used to use the Rotella 15w40, but it's just been reformulated to meet CJ-4 (not sure if there is the same or less ZDDP).

I'll be switching to Brad-Penn . . . .

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Nov 4 2008, 08:39 AM

No, I wasn't aware that Castrol has made that many changes; but it doesn't change the fact that I've never had any oil related issues using their products.

Which brings me to my next point- how can you say that what I've used in the past means nothing? You can't just write off 11 years of good use just because you have "tens of thousands of dollars" to do the research. So what if it's not the same product that it was? That doesn't change the fact that in the past three years, which you are telling me they've made a bunch of changes, that I STILL haven't had any oil related issues with it.

Excuse me if I don't have that kind of money at my disposal to throw away on testing different oils at any given time- like many people on this board I'm broke and just have to wait and see how it plays out from oil change to oil change.

So let's see the hard data you claim to have Raby- I'd like to know exactly how Castrol failed so miserably that you wouldn't even use it in your lawnmower now.

Posted by: ericread Nov 4 2008, 10:20 AM

dbgriffith has a point. But maybe he is missing a some important points himself.

1. Jake has spent considerable time and money in scientifically testing and analyzing motor oils.
2. Navarro over at LN has worked with Jake in these tests.
3. Jake has no financial interest in pushing one oil versus another oil.
4. Without any financial gain whatsoever, Jake has chosen to share the results of his testing with us.

OK, granted; Jake's style of posting probably won't win him any elections. I doubt he really cares... But say what you will, but the integrity of Jake's knowledge and advice in the use of specific oils and additives has never been impeached.

You may wish to use a motor oil that Jake doesn't recommend. Great! Hell, you may decide that vegetable oil is the correct oil for your teener. Even better! And your 914 might run just fine on whatever oil you decide to use. However, do not forget that these engines were designed and intended to be run with an oil that was available in the 1970's. And Brad-Penn is about as close to those legacy oils that you can get.

With the difference in price between Brad-Penn and other oils relatively small, I just don't understand this emotional issues surrounding this question.

But then again, I just don't get emotional about motor oil. I just want to give my 914 every chance to live on.

Eric Read

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Nov 4 2008, 10:49 AM

I get what you're saying Eric- and if I came off as sounding like Jake doesn't know what he's talking about, that's not what I meant at all. I didn't mean to make it sound like Jake's opinion and/or test data don't mean anything.

But IMO, you can't just dismiss an 11 year track record, whether you have data to support it or not. It doesn't matter that Castrol has made 4 product changes in the last 3 years because while that may be true, it's still true that for all that time I've never once had a single oil related issue with Castrol- and that's after using it in 5 very different vehicles with very different mileages. Besides, I'm sure they had reasons for making those changes- be them good or bad, they wouldn't just up and change their product without reason.

So was my 1975 Chevy Pick up. Granted, we're talking water cooled vs. air cooled, but it doesn't change the fact that 9 of those 11 years I've been using Castrol were spent in that truck. Sure, it was the high mileage formula, but Castrol never let me down; and even now it's still proven to me that it's a good oil.

Besides, all I'm asking for is to see the data that Jake has on these tests so I can see it for myself. I realize that he's got a good reputation with the members of 914 world but that doesn't mean I should do what he says just because he said it. IMO it's a foolish thing to do to just take someone's word for it, you know what I mean? I'm not saying he's partial to one oil or another or that he has anything to gain from pushing a certain type- I just think it's not asking too much to see the data he's got on Castrol vs. other oils.

And like I said, if I came off as sounding like his data or opinion didn't matter, that's not what I meant.

Posted by: ericread Nov 4 2008, 11:11 AM

Well said db!

Thanks for the explanation. I agree that taking an individual's word at face value is less convincing than reviewing actual test data.

Here's a couple of links that I reviewed prior to switching to Brad-Penn:

http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bmw-6-series-e24/8932859-1.html

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=1869
(take a look at Charles Navarro's post about half way down the link)

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74825

Just make sure you keep feeding that yummy zinc to your engine!

Eric

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Nov 4 2008, 12:50 PM

Alright, yes, I am banging my head, but not for the reasons y'all might like to think I am. I still stand by Castrol; what I'm banging my head about is the fact that when I made my original post in this topic, I was thinking "The best oil period" not "The best oil for a type IV engine."



I don't know why that's what I was thinking, since I do know how to read and the topic of this thread is "What oil type for a type IV?" But I somehow managed to get confused.

Still, I would like it noted that in this link you gave me Eric- http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html - which leads to Raby's test results.

Under the question "What kind of real-world field testing have you done?" It states in the first paragraph that all field testing was done by Jake Raby. This is stated in the second paragraph:

Granted, it goes on to state in the third paragraph:



But then, if you keep reading, under the next question "What oil should I do if I have an older, higher mileage engine? Can I use a synthetic?" It states:



So, given these results from your own tests Raby, I'd still like to know why you wouldn't use Castrol in a lawnmower when your own test results state that it works well in an air cooled engine... unless there was something I missed in all that reading (which is entirely possible since my eyes started crossing after about 1/4 of the way thru)

Posted by: ericread Nov 4 2008, 02:34 PM

I think you may have the wrong person. You're probably looking for Jack, not Jake. Here's a link to "Jacks Small Engines"



Eric Read

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Nov 4 2008, 02:52 PM

No, I'm really not. Click the link I referenced in my last post Eric and scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page. You're looking for the question "What kind of real-world field-testing have you done?" This is the first paragraph in the answer to that question:



So unless that's a typo, I'm not looking for Jack.

Posted by: Todd Enlund Nov 4 2008, 04:05 PM

In reality, your 11 year track record means virtually nothing. It's too small of a sample. I've had 0 oil related issues in 20+ years of using Valvoline. How many people do you know that HAVE had an issue that could be tracked to what brand of oil they were using? Hell, I had no oil related issues in 4 years of dumping the cheapest crap in a paper can that I could find into my Pinto while I was in college.

Jake has numbers. I don't need to see them. That, combined with plenty of anecdotal accounts, is enough for me to be convinced that I'll be putting Brad Penn into my type IV when finish building it.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 4 2008, 08:21 PM

Because the oil you used in the past is no longer available.



Yes I can. Because that oil you used for 11 years is no longer the same oil that it was during the majority of those last 11 years. It doesn't have the same elemental composition and it doesn't smell or even look the same.



The fact that the oil changed without anyone knowing it means everything. Many people live by "I have used this brand XXXXX for 25 years with no issues" all the time, but brand XXXX isn't what it was thanks to new car manufacturers and the EPA. New cars have oxygen sensors that can be fouled by zinc in just a few miles, so oils that are rich in Zinc and Phosphorous were costing car manufacturers thousands of dollars in warranty claims when 500+ buck sensors went bad just because of the oil. New engines are SOHC/DOHC or they use roller lifters, all of these engine designs d not demand ZDDP in the oil to decrease wear like flat tappet cams and lifters do in our engines. This is why your observation that included "other" engines wasn't applicable to the content on this forum where our engines use conventional flat tappet cams and lifters, dependent upon ZDDP to maintain long life.


How do you know that you haven't had issues? The issues are accelerated wear of the engine components, not immediate failure! In my testing devices, UOA and field testing we have learned that the only time an engine will immediately fail due to oil selection is at start up with a new cam and lifter set that has to be "work hardened" and broken in. All other times the less than effective oil just depletes efficiency, accelerates wear and impedes fuel economy.


Then why are you arguing with someone who has done this? I own an engine company and I have HAD to do this testing so I can mandate oils for my engines. My reputation is on the line every time an engine fires up and I can't blame a failure on engine oils. There is never an excuse or explanation for any failure in the eyes of my critics or those who pay for my components or engines.

-
Or you can listen to someone who develops these engines everyday and has 40 months of devotion on the subject. I have NOT A DAMN THING to gain from you using or not using any oil, because I don't sell oil!

I am going out of my way to share a portion of what we have learned with you here on these forums FOR FREE.


Sure, I'll share it with you for a 250.00 contribution to our development fund.

-

we have used Castrol as a baseline and "control"for all oil testing since day one. This is because it was my favored oil for so many years and it was the oil we started experiencing accelerated wear issues with dating back to 2002. We have tested the Castrol on the R&D trip and in 7 other field tested engines ranging from the VW Type 1, Type 4 and even the Porsche M96 engine. This oil has been tested for torque and HP losses, efficiency, UOA and even forced component failures using the oil.

Now, it is no surprise that I can come off a bit abrasive at times here on the forums.. I take my work and the promotion, preservation and modification of these engines very seriously and go to extreme levels to gather the data and understanding necessary to achieve my goals.

I stand firmly on all my recommendations, mandates and information on the topic of engine oils that should be used in the Porsche 914/4 engine. I challenge any individuals or Companies to parallel our efforts on this topic.

I'll close by saying that I quit circulating data on this topic when people here on the net disrespected our work by challenging the results when they had zero data and were offering only opinion that wasn't substantiated by the single first particle of empirical data. If you want to argue with me at my level, you must first elevate yourself to above the ground floor, else it's like taking a Knife to a Gun fight.

People allow their past experiences to dictate their future, they become complacent and don't realize that everything in the world has changed except their mind....

The reason I would not run Castrol in my Lawnmower is because it runs flat tappet lifters and camshaft so the lack of ZDDP, Zinc and Phosphorous it has is inadequate for the engine design of my lawn mower-

Posted by: ericread Nov 4 2008, 08:29 PM

[quote name='dbgriffith75' date='Nov 4 2008, 12:52 PM' post='1098486']
[quote]I think you may have the wrong person. You're probably looking for Jack, not Jake.

No, I'm really not. Click the link I referenced in my last post Eric and scroll about 2/3 of the way down the page. You're looking for the question "What kind of real-world field-testing have you done?" This is the first paragraph in the answer to that question:

[/quote]

Oh come on now.... That was funny! You asked about lawn mowers and I gave you lawn mowers!!! Didn't you see my LOL3???

If you don't take a minute to laugh at life, I'm not going to waste my "A" material!!!

http://www.jackssmallengines.com/Oil.cfm

Eric Read

Posted by: dbgriffith75 Nov 4 2008, 10:13 PM

Alright, you know what-

Obviously I can't explain my side of the story well enough for you, or anybody else, to understand what I'm saying. I'm just not that good with words obviously.

So here it is- you're right, I'm wrong. You fucking happy now? The fact of the matter is I have my points and they are right and I obviously can't make you or anybody else see that. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL MY POINTS ARE RIGHT; BUT THEY'RE NOT ALL WRONG EITHER.

Have a good night.

Posted by: ericread Nov 5 2008, 12:57 PM

Now I feel bad... I was just making light of the "lawnmower" remark, which in my opinion was originally somewhat of an exaggeration in the first place. And I do believe that you should use whatever oil that gives you confidence in your engine mechanicals. Your experience in using oil should never be dismissed, as you have had a great deal of success with it.

As for me, I use the Brad-Penn stuff because I believe in what I have seen in the posts and in the data that has been published.

For the last, and most important point; Many, many, many people would disagree with you that I am right. In fact, if you look at my historical posts, I probably ask as high a percentage of "stoopid" questions as anyone. I do really enjoy a good discussion, and you will see that my sense of "humor" seems to be shared by a rather small minority of members. I think my humor is hilarious!!! And I always have been told, I you can make one person laugh...

Anyway, your post are appreciated, and I apologize if I offended you in my remarks.

(Still, the lawnmower link WAS funny)

Eric Read

Posted by: bembry Nov 5 2008, 01:52 PM

I noticed at this thread was quite old, and with the talk of oil being reformulated so many times in the past few years, I need to seek clarification:

I'm overseas and not sure I can get the Brad Penn oil, but I do have good access to Royal Purple. Is that still OK? If so, what weight is best for 914s in a moderate (Western Europe, but not driven in extreme weather) environment?

Please advise, and thanks in advance!

Posted by: ConeDodger Nov 5 2008, 06:14 PM

Those of you referencing the great article in Panorama should be giving credit where credit is due. Look at his reference list, his major source is Charles Navarro. He is using the same data Charles and Jake developed.

Posted by: Phoenix 914-6GT Nov 5 2008, 06:30 PM

To bring attension to those that like Castrol I would like to point out to people to stay away from it from my experience with it. While working at the shop I did for a few years, Japanese specialty shop, we had a few customers that swore by Castrol. We use Valvoline at the time. They would bring their own eggs for us to put it in and we did. Now Honda and Toyota engines are way different that a TIV but still, we ended up needing to do massive work on these cars due to foaming issues Castrol was causing. I had never had any experience outside of the shop with this oil and after dealing with this I never will.

On my 914 I will be using Penn, but I have been using Kenndal GT. I know it isn't what it used to be but it is still better than some

Penn is the best for our cars hands down.

Posted by: dw914er Nov 5 2008, 08:19 PM

my buddy uses Castrol for his 260 and 350 z's. He swears by it.

I use Kendall dino for the Porsche. My shop recommended it, and it does the job great. I don't have nearly the track record to prove it, but I just need the motor to last until I actually restore the car.

my acura is whatever the dealership puts in it. 140k so far, and its been fine.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 5 2008, 10:28 PM

Unfortunately, Kendall is no longer what it was when so many top Porsche specialists were recommending it. Heck, it isn't even green any more!!

The good news is that Brad Penn is what Kendall used to be.

--DD

Posted by: dw914er Nov 6 2008, 12:27 AM

ahh. I get it from my shop. Thats what they use if they fill up the car. I have an old quart of Kendall.

Ill check into the Brad Penn

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 6 2008, 01:21 PM

Very wise words for a young man like you!
Andy

Posted by: ericread Nov 6 2008, 02:23 PM

We live in reference to past experience and not to future events, however inevitable. ~ H. G. Wells

Just for shits and giggles, I thought I'd add another quote.

Eric Read

Posted by: 6freak Dec 1 2008, 02:59 PM

10W-40 whats the W mean?

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Dec 1 2008, 04:08 PM

Weight

Posted by: Richard Casto Dec 1 2008, 04:47 PM

Actually I believe that the "W" in 10W-40 means "Winter". In that this is the "cold start" or "Winter" viscosity.

Read the "Grade" section in this Wikipedia article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

Posted by: 6freak Dec 5 2008, 09:15 AM

Wrong ...just checking to see what people would say...Castro is correct its winter

Posted by: jc914 Dec 6 2008, 12:51 PM

This is a great thread. After reading it I am changing my oil tomorrow to get rid of the castrol GTX High millage oil. I am going to Use Royal purple (they sell it at my local pepboys store).

from my reading Brad penn in First Place and Royal Purple in second place.

Has anyone used this product. I found in at an aircooled forum

http://www.zddplus.com/

Posted by: Joe Ricard Dec 6 2008, 08:16 PM

Regular Royal Purple is not the right stuff you need the racing blend.

Posted by: rebelmdot Mar 9 2009, 12:16 PM

Mobil 1 15w50 in 914's and 911.

But will go to Brad Penn when I can afford a Raby engine.

Posted by: type2man May 30 2009, 10:30 PM

I would agree that different brands of oils are better than others. I dont know if this type of test has been done but it would be interesting to see the wear on an engine with oil changes every 1500 miles with oil that costs half the money of a more expensive oil done every 3000 miles. End result is same cost but you have a cleaner oil inside you engine....

Posted by: sww914 May 30 2009, 11:21 PM

I did an oil change on my ??? 1.7 with FI, I used Brad Penn 20/50 from GPR. The car runs better with the Penn than it ever has.

Posted by: ME733 Jun 24 2010, 06:44 AM

.............well this survey is an all or nothing , eighter or...dino. or synthitic...NOT what I do......many years ago I did some dynomenter testing with oils of different brands. What was reveled thru these tests was: VALVOLINE OIL 20-w -50....allowed the engine to produce 1.5 MORE H.P. than any other brand.(this was on a 150 h.p. mule engine which we used for practice-and we had a lot of time on it even before the tests were performed.).None the less VALVOLINE gave us a free 1.5 H.P.....MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE is; VALVOLINE 20-w-50, then add 1/2 Quart pure silicone engine oil, and then 1/2 quart of molybelium disulfide-motorcycle racing oil (20-w-50)..I have used this combination for MANY MANY years on every car I have owned., AND with complete success. The silicone engine oil will soften the engine seals, preventing them from cooking , and leaking.keeps them soft. The moly engine oil coats and impregnates soft metal(the bearings) as well as other moving parts, and high load parts , such as rocker arm shafts etc. I believe it,s especially good on hydrolic lifters in street cars.(never had a lifter problem). I do not recommend a pure synthetic-only-engine oil use.(except possably in a race engine application only)., You need the dino -oil to clean and absorb the by-products of the combustion processes. Pure synthetic however can lower the engine temperature by as much as 10 degrees...A Pure synthetic only use can cause internal parts to RUST if left , without use for a long period of time. Valvoline 20-w-50 is my choise.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jun 24 2010, 09:09 AM

...and guess what? Every one of those oils has changed since 2002.

What worked for years all of a sudden became the worst possible choice, the oil companies didn't have to tell us what they changed or when they changed it.

Posted by: underthetire Jun 24 2010, 09:20 AM

Huh? Synthetic cleans way better than DINO, that was the whole point of it really. It has a higher flash point, and won't turn to sludge like dino will if over heated. I've always used Valvolene as well, don't get me wrong, but since the ZDDP is gone out of it, it's no longer safe for pushrod motors. I use a high mileage blend now, but my motor is old and tired and not worth spending the extra for brad penn or Royal purple. The Valvolene racing 20/50 has ZDDP, but that stuff sure didn't stay very clean.

Posted by: ME733 Jun 24 2010, 04:07 PM

.............well as you said , you have an older engine....and the reason the oil didn't stay very clean (for very long) is ....it was cleaning the combustion residue out of the engine. In an engine with piston rings that are sealing properly,good valve guides, etc...VALVOLINE oil will stay "clear for a reasonable period of time. Humidity, and water accumulation in the engine also causes oil to turn darker.I would disagree that synthetic oils clean better.

Posted by: Vacca Rabite Jun 24 2010, 04:10 PM

I know some folks that swear by the Valvoline racing oil, which I believe still have the zinc content. But the packaging on it used to state "not for street use" and it was just as hard to find as the Brad Penn. So I just use the Brad Penn.

Zach

Posted by: underthetire Jun 24 2010, 04:11 PM

No, its cause valvoline racing does not have enough detergent in it. The syn blend valvoline stays clear for a long time.

Posted by: 914rat Jun 24 2010, 04:28 PM

Interesting thread I've learned a lot.Just found a Brad Penn vendor 1/2 hr away.Picking up a case tomorrow.Why argue the reasearch just buy it and be happy.Go with what is known to work best and be thankful someone told you about it.

Posted by: realred914 Jun 24 2010, 07:07 PM

bradpenn 20W-50 for my car. has high ZDDP levels and it is semisynthetic (need to add semi-synthetic to the poll options)

gets good oil pressure even when hot. good stuff per many test results



failing that, i use regular oil in a pinch, but add stp red bottle for teh ZDDP content. but usually the air cooled cars in my care get brad penn.

Posted by: pilothyer Jul 21 2010, 11:17 PM

I went to all the local area auto parts places looking for the STP Red bottled oil treatment...guess what? all said "we no longer carry that, we had to return alll we had on hand and can no longer sell it" Finally the last place I looked had a guy working there that said "modern engines no longer need ZDDP for wear protection" I explained why I wanted it and he informed me the only place I could get it would be at a closeout store called BIG LOTs but that I should hurry because it would be the last. I found a Big Lots and they had 16 bottles of the STP Red for $1.50 each. I, of course, bought it all