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Posted by: raynekat Jun 22 2022, 08:58 PM

Whether you like 'em or not....they are definitely a wave of the future.
Not sure what I think about the whole idea myself.

Still have the rear luggage boot which is nice.

It's pretty slick the bolt in rear cradle that holds some of the batteries, Tesla motor, cooling, etc.

The "custom" look is pretty bad as to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJTNsH-SIqk

Posted by: cali914 Jun 22 2022, 11:02 PM

agree 100 percent

Posted by: Montreal914 Jun 22 2022, 11:14 PM

Already discussed in a couple of places:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=345686&st=40

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=360290&hl=

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 23 2022, 05:56 AM

No quicker way to destroy a 914 than to put a ton of batteries in it.

Shame so few "drivers" value handling anymore. That used to be the whole point of what these funny little European cars were about.

Try pulling 0.5g turn or perform 0.5g braking. Most of your friends and family will wet themselves like little girls thinking they past the limit and about to die.

Posted by: GeorgeKopf Jun 23 2022, 02:19 PM

For me the manual transmission in the 914 is 50% of the fun. Taking that out for an electric motor seems such a loss.

Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 23 2022, 02:30 PM

Batteries will get lighter.

And you can put the electric on the transmission. It doesn't help with range but I would definitely do it for fun.

Posted by: frostyf Jun 23 2022, 07:00 PM

Wonder if the batteries in the frunk compensate for the engine, battery, coolant cage extending past the rear axles aft in balance?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 23 2022, 07:28 PM

No. Only further increases moment of inertia and degrades steering and handling.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 23 2022, 07:31 PM

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. The promised land of battery technology is always 10 years away . . . as it has been for the last 20 year or more.

It's always a trade off between range and weight.

Posted by: bkrantz Jun 23 2022, 08:38 PM

To keep the universe even, somebody now has to install air-cooled type 4 engines into two Teslas.

Posted by: targa72e Jun 23 2022, 10:37 PM

Just like we would never be able to watch video over a dial up modem or have a battery powered phone that last or more the 30min this will change. battery technology from 10 years ago is not even a discussion point. I work with companies that are automating manufacturing for these product and the problem is the technology is moving so fast that the technology is obsolete before it gets manufactured. I do not know what it will look like in 10 years but it will not be recognizable from today. Bigger problem is updating power infrastructure to not be just transferring pollution production.

john

Posted by: bbrock Jun 23 2022, 10:50 PM

What the heck are you talking about

Sure it's a compromise between range and weight, but the range batteries get for the same volume/weight today is many times more than just a decade ago. Maybe the weight of the battery hasn't changed so much, but the amount of juice inside it certainly has. Remember that 30 years ago these cars would have been crammed full of lead acid batteries that just "might" get you to the grocery store and back.



https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1234-april-18-2022-volumetric-energy-density-lithium-ion-batteries

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 24 2022, 12:39 AM

Where does one find these 450 whL batteries?

Posted by: 914e Jun 24 2022, 02:11 AM

The SK innovation has batteries close to that. Ford is using them along with VW group.
The Ford module size is not the best for a 914. 24x15x5 in

412 wH per liter
259 wH per kilogram

The ID4 has battery modules a better size, they could be located very low on each side of the motor
Length 590mm
Width 225mm
Height 110mm

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 24 2022, 04:53 AM

Agreed. Point being Lithium is the lightest metal (and 3rd lightest element) so not likely to find a new metal to replace it anytime “soon”.

Yes, battery energy density is increasing but it is still a long way from the energy density of gasoline.

Always fun to on the EV topic

My end point being that the weight of the batteries is what destroys the handling - especially with a 914 conversion. That’s OK if you only drive in a straight line to go get ice cream as your fun drive. I prefer something that handles better than that.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 24 2022, 05:11 AM

Posted by: bbrock Jun 24 2022, 01:02 PM

Well, let's consider these two examples. They said the rear battery pack plus Tesla drive train weighs about the same as a Six engine and trans. Okay, I've heard people argue even the extra weight of a six takes away some of the nimbleness of a four, but people seem to be pretty happy with the handling of their sixes.

Let's just consider that if they dropped the front battery pack, the weight has been held about the same. It's hard to know how the distribution of weight between battery pack and motors affects moment of inertia compared with a stock ICE. It looks like maybe it would be moved toward the axles a bit more, but seems it would be close(ish). Seems like you should be allowed at least a small battery pack in the fuel tank compartment to make up the weight of a full tank. Overall, some range would be lost but how much? The point being that even with current tech, you should be able to EV a 914 without destroying the handling if that were the priority.

It's all good because I know that you secretly fantasize about your own 914 EV

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 24 2022, 01:25 PM

Thanks. So not available outside OEM?

Also it's not for a 914. I'm looking into doing a practical DD likely my old Nissan truck.

Is it just me or did cells nearly double in price this year?

Posted by: Mendivil26 Jun 24 2022, 02:32 PM

Not exactly an air-cooled ICE, but this guy swapped an LS into a Tesla Model S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjnrybJ2f50

Apparently a 4bt cummins swap into a model 3 is next; they're calling it a Tesla Model-D.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 24 2022, 03:29 PM

What flavor is the Kool-Aid?

We don't have to guess blindly at what the range might be with your proposal.

Let's presume that you are correct and that the powertrain approximates the mass and inertia of the /6.

So to preserve handling, now let's replace the fuel tank with batteries. Luckily we already know the volume of the 914 tank. 62 liters.

For simplicity let's assume we can package the batteries with perfect efficiency and use all 62 liters of space for the batteries.

Using 914e's specification of 412 Wh per liter we get 62 liters * 412 Wh/liter = 25,544 Wh. Likewise, 25,544 Wh / 259 Wh/Kg = 98.6 kg. This is extremely generous since 100% volumetric efficiency won't be achieved with packaging of the batteries in that "tank" space. Tesla model 3 battery packs are on the order of 300 Kg - 400 Kg depending on size so 98.6 Kg 914 battery is very generous indeed. Notice, in the video that the reality is that the 26 KWh battery they have occupies the entire Frunk in front of the gas tank. The reality is that you cannot package 26 KWh of battery in that gas tank package space. I'll ignore this for now.

So let's say gasoline weighs 6.0 lb/gallon, after conversions this is 0.719 kg/liter. So gasoline would weigh --> 62 liters * 0.719 kg/liter = 44.6 kg. Hmm . . . so those batteries are double the weight up there vs. gasoline. I can guarantee you that I can feel the degradation from an extra 44.6 kg of weight up in the gas tank area which is now increasing moment of inertia in a big way.

But wait, we don't even have the weight of the power electronics yet. I guess whatever they weigh - they would have to go in the Frunk and will continue to degrade handling even further since that added Frunk mass is no longer centralized. I'll ignore them for now to work in your favor.

Now how about range? That 62 liters of gas would normally get us 410 miles of range at 25 mpg. It can also be refueled in less than 5 minutes.

So what might we expect for range from a 25 kilowatt hour battery pack? Might be a bit harder to guesstimate. Let's work off a Tesla Model 3. The Model 3 gets about 165 miles off the 50KWh battery. Only about 40Kwh (of the 50 KWh) is usable since we can't discharge Li-ion to zero SOC (keeping 20% reserve - using 80%).

https://ev-database.uk/car/1060/Tesla-Model-3-Standard-Range

So let's do that with our 914 battery pack. 25 KWh * 0.8 = 20 KWh usable capacity.

So now let's scale and say that if the Tesla Model 3 gets 165 miles of real world range off that 40 KWh usable battery - simple scaling would give us 1/2 of that off the 914 20 Kwh (usable0 battery = 82.5 miles. I'll even grant you that the 914 is lighter than the Model 3 and will have less rolling resistance as a result. I'll guesstimate it might be 30% more efficient due to that weight delta (3600 lbs vs 2000 ish). So we'll call it 107 mile range which will be more than generous for that tiny 25 KWh battery.

So I guess I won't be road tripping in a 914 anytime soon. Sounding a lot more like an ice cream getter to me.

It's not that I am completely against EV's. What I do oppose is all the wishful thinking and boundless optimism that ignores the physics that degrades a conversion as well as the range assumptions that assume the conversion would still usable for real world purposes like a long road trip.

Posted by: URY914 Jun 24 2022, 03:35 PM

Would love to convert my 914 autocross car. I would be a rocket ship. I saw a WV Bug over the weekend at a show that used Tesla battery packs. see ...




Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: URY914 Jun 24 2022, 03:54 PM

Posted by: bbrock Jun 24 2022, 05:46 PM

I think you missed my point - or more likely chose to ignore it because, yes, I know how you are

There's no disagreement that batteries have not come close to the energy density of gasoline, so yes, any 914 EV conversion will be a compromise as the 914 (or any car) has been since first conception. I'm just saying it is now possible to match the weight distribution of a stock 914 with an EV package that gets a respectable amount of range, keeps the fantastic handling, gains a ton of torque and power, and sound damn cool while beating the pants off any stock 914. Yes, that's right, EVs sound cool That would not be easily accomplished just a decade ago.

No, the car is not going to be a long hauler. If you want that, you have to pay the weight and handling penalty like you say. Can't deny that the energy density of liquid petrol has its perks. I'm just saying that if you constrain the conversion to matching the weight distribution of a stock ICE, you can still have a fun car. 100 mile range really isn't bad for a pleasure ride. You don't have to have "boundless optimism." Even if you are realistic about trade-offs and limitations, there is a lot to like about EVs and they just keep getting better.

Love the info card on that bug. Very cool!

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 24 2022, 06:08 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845 - i can see the point @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 is making.
at least in relation to the EV conversion in question.

they have installed a battery pack in the nose forward of the front axle line.
which will change the low polar moment character of the 914 where all major weight was inboard.

also the battery pack in the engine bay is vertical so some weight is up at a higher centre of gravity?

it might not ruin the 914 but it will change it.
the front battery pack location means that things are more like a blend of 924 where major weight was right out to ends of car in line with axles or boxster where they have deliberately put weight out past the axle lines (ie radiators etc) to curb low polar moment snappiness. however in case of both examples porsche took care to have 50 50 weight distribution. if you could set up an ev to maintain that 50 50 weight dist and importantly balanced the right distance from axle lines you might end up with a very neutral handling car closer to a 924 or boxster.

but as superhawk says. it isn't a 914 anymore.

i think it would very tricky to do an ev conversion on a 914 and keep its particular handling character. ideally the battery packs need to go in the space where the fuel tank once was. and for the power unit and battery packs in engine area to have as low a centre of gravity as possible.

Posted by: bbrock Jun 24 2022, 07:05 PM

Oh, I get his point too. I'm just saying ditch the pack in the frunk, move what you can to the gas tank area, and take the hit on range and you are close to where you started on weight distribution. Not exact, but close. To say that an EV conversion ruins the handling of a 914 as a blanket statement is a bit of an overreach IMO.

As far as whether it is still a 914, I'd have to drive it before I would make that call. People transplant all sorts of exotic drive trains into these chassis without getting kicked out of the 914 club. Whatever they are, they look like hella fun cars.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 24 2022, 07:32 PM

yes thats right. i'd take the hit on range over handling too if was doing it.

given i drive a gutless 1.8, i treasure the feel of the car driving it.
thats the one thing i would not want to ruin.
if i was doing an ev i would want to somehow retain that.

the alternative would be to build an acceleration monster.
not a bad idea either. i quite like the idea of all those V-8 conversions you americans do.
but its a different car.

i think the greater challenge is the conversion that maintains the original weight distribution and mass. technically its a lot harder to do than a pragmatic approach that results in a different kind of overall chassis character.

Posted by: mepstein Jun 24 2022, 07:33 PM

It’s pretty easy to lighten a 914 by 200-250lbs and a 300lb weight savings isn’t impossible. So there is a lot of room to help make up for the batteries.
You also have to individualize the owners needs. I know a local member who uses his 914ev for a 5 mile work commute. He might be very happy with 40-50 miles of range. I realize we are talking Delaware and not the Midwest. For some people, electric might never satisfy their needs but that’s ok.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 24 2022, 10:37 PM

something like this might satisfy me.
looks like it goes around corners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96UjqDWGVns

Posted by: mate914 Jun 25 2022, 05:05 AM

If electric cars are the way of the future why does the Gov have to force them on us?
Why not let the free market innovate and develop ev things. Gas is expensive on purpose.

Group think is one brick throw away from mob rules.....

How about east coast and west coat can have only ev cars because of population density?
Rural areas need gas. I have a 20 miles one way drive for meds or food. We also have water running across the roads after rain. Take that ev throw 6inches of water and your fucked.

I think ev are cool. I don't think they are the future, they are 100 year old tech +.
Its like putting a GPS map on a horse and telling you that you can save money on gas.

That bug have enough money in his engine ($15385) to do a 356SC engine.

Matt

Posted by: pvollma Jun 25 2022, 09:10 AM

A bit of a complementary topic, this is the best explanation I've seen as to why electric cars are NOT the answer yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk

(14 minute TEDx talk)

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 25 2022, 10:02 AM

And if you just watched the TED talk above - you will have learned that the horse is a CO2 emitter -- Bad Horsie


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5BrE1Pi5cU


The power of propaganda

Posted by: NARP74 Jun 25 2022, 10:18 AM

The next big thing is sometimes a bust. But I am hoping it leads to the next big thing. Like going from incandescent to CFL to LED. We needed number two to get to number three. Is Hydrogen the next number three? I hated the CFL bulb, crap light, no dimming, they hummed, they were hot and did not last as long as advertised.

100 years ago the distribution of power in an automobile was almost even, 1/3 gas, 1/3 steam and 1/3 electric. We have not come a long way baby.

I also question what happens to the tens of thousands of battery packs and solar panels in 5, 10 or 20 years when they are expired. Toxic waste?

Posted by: 2L914Eh Jun 25 2022, 02:19 PM

I mentioned this EV conversion possibility for my fourteener to one of my sons after surfing the net on the topic and reading then piece about Frances and her 914 EV efforts in the latest Panorama. He looked sideways at me and said, so dad, you want to build this into a golf cart? Ha ha. I'm thinking awhile about that perspective.

Posted by: 930cabman Jun 25 2022, 02:56 PM

One of my favorite parts of the 914 is the light weight. Batteries and light weight are not a fit.

The technology is at least a bunch of years away until EV's can compete with our time tested IC engines

Posted by: bbrock Jun 25 2022, 04:07 PM

Hmm, the last 8 Le Mans winners were EV hybrids using Lithium ion batteries. Seems they can compete in at least some respects.

And again, review the examples we are talking about here. Dump part of the front battery pack and move what you can into the fuel tank compartment and you have a lightweight 914 that weighs no more than a stock six with probably a little over 100 miles of range that will smoke most ICE configurations we've stuffed into these chassis.

I'm not an EV fanboy and think they have some improvements to make before an EV will be parked in my garage, but the technology has a lot to offer even today. These two cars in particular check a lot of boxes.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 25 2022, 04:11 PM

The frunk pack would actually be +100 miles as the rear pack/motor assm is 100 miles. 200 miles could get you out of town, though....

Vegas to Salt Lake, Red Rocks 2022, 430 miles. So 1 and a half charges to get there plus 2 and a half to get back, plus a charge a day to do the runs.
Using the Beetle as the example that's 16 hours of charging per stop. Let's say your batteries can do fast charging but not Tesla Supercharging, that's about 1 hour per stop right? Doable actually.

But realistically because the trip is over 200 miles one way I would flat tow, which would add noticeably to the trip as the tow pig gets about half the mpg of the 914n6.

Also... I will notice +280lbs in the frunk as I understeer thru the corners. My filled radiator with fans is only 20lbs. My v6 is 320lbs loaded with a/c comp, so between a -4 and -6. At $7k for a 26kw battery I could do 2 conversions. At $5.50/gal that's >30k miles just to break even with 1 pack cost. No reason to continue with the whole EV cost return.

On a positive note, that is a clean EV install and overall I dig the car, except the front turns.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 25 2022, 08:20 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

I think you missed the part where I was super generous with my package assumptions and said let's ASSUME we can package 62L of battery with 100% package efficiency.

I made no allowance for Battery Management System, battery cooling loop plumbing, high voltage wiring, and power electronics.

You will get nowhere near that battery capacity I calculated in the that fuel tank compartment in REALITY

Take a look a the Beetle picture closely. You'd be lucky to fit 2 of those battery modules in the volume available for the fuel tank. So maybe 10 KWh of battery capacity with only 80% of that being usable You will get no where 100 miles of range on batteries that only take up the fuel tank compartment on current battery technology . Oh, and take a look at the weight of the Beetle battery pack -- I was also super generous with the weight estimate too

You will not keep the dynamic handling character of a 914 with an EV conversion.

You're reference to LeMans is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't deny that a purpose designed EV racer can do well w.r.t. handling given the batteries will be packaged for low Cg and centralized mass . . . a cobbled 914 EV conversion is another story and the handing WILL be degraded because of the physics and the realities of where we are w.r.t. battery technology.

Seems the boundless optimism is creeping in.

Posted by: bbrock Jun 25 2022, 11:07 PM

Watch the video again. These cars have 52KWh of batteries. Twenty-six KWh are in the frunk and 26 KWh in the engine bay. The drive train PLUS rear battery pack and cooling is roughly the weight of a six cylinder engine and transmission according to the vid. Just dump the front pack altogether and you are already close to, or exceeding 100 mile range by your calculations. Now let's add whatever batteries to the fuel compartment we can to equal the weight of a full fuel tank. Your calculations indicate you get about 12KWh in 44.6 Kg of batteries that would approximate the weight of a full gas tank. Let's knock that down to 10KWh to allow for the electronics that are already in the fuel compartment. That's an extra 42 miles of range by your calculation. So we would be looking at what, 120-150 miles of range without adding any weight? I could have some fun with that.

It isn't optimism. It's just doing some math on what has already been built.

Posted by: bbrock Jun 25 2022, 11:30 PM

Nope. Because I didn't make that comparison, you did. The statement I was responding to was that EV technology is years away from being able to compete with ICE. That said, I know what @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 was saying and generally agree. Until we are able to conveniently get 200 miles+ range on a 15 minute charge, I don't think EVs will compete with ICE for the full spectrum of use cases for cars. We need a LOT of improvement in charging infrastructure and some improvement in battery/charging tech. However, I think it is fair to say EV is already out-competing ICE in many areas of what we expect cars to do and already satisfy some use cases nicely.

One example, we are in need of a new truck and are eyeing the Ford F150 Lightening carefully. Why? Because we only use pickup trucks for hauling crap in the bed, and 200 miles of range is more than enough for us for that purpose. We could charge it with our solar power at home AND the truck could be used as battery backup for our house. A Youtuber did the math and figured out it is actually cheaper to by an F150 than to buy the equivalent number of Tesla Powerwalls to match the energy storage of the truck. Of course, that is an insane amount of storage for backup of most homes, but funny to think about.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 26 2022, 03:24 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845 & @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428

achtung.

don't even bother argueing.
the future is here.
i posted it above.
check the youtube link.
a 4 wheel motorcycle that is the closest thing to a 21st century 914 just blew doors at goodwood hill climb this year.

just get access to an apricot orchard and grow biofuel to have a strategy to preserve 914s or power your house off your ford (and those numbers are correct bbrock ).

but you would not bother with an ev conversion when you see what just went down - days ago.

ev. fan powered downdraft. its here. and its not a replacement, or a conversion,
its a whole new idea (the new is made of the old remixed with some spices). which is what the future is meant to be.

and its compelling.

914s are fabulous. the best museum piece you could have. a high point.

and now there is a hint of whats next.

try a tiny car. with a 0- 186 mph in under 9 seconds.
like fu%k 0-60 mph. lets have a whole new measure.

hit the link in my post above.
are you guys all asleep or something.

Posted by: 930cabman Jun 26 2022, 04:41 AM

Yes and I enjoy my sleep

Excuse my ignorance as I had no knowledge of the past 8 Lemans winners running EV hybrids.

New technology is great and we need it, but converting a finely tuned machine with batteries is not for me.

Being an old stubborn guy, I enjoy the simplicity of my fleet of 914's as the drivability has similarities to my first car in 1969, a '63 bug. I run carbs too

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 26 2022, 09:15 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

You know I can't resist a good debate.

I think we are all over the map. I'm not debating that you can get 100 miles of range out of a 914 with a 26 KWh battery. That is agreed.

What I want to focus on is the falsehood that the EV conversion doesn't destroy the 914 dynamic handling character. I get people will do conversions - that's fine if they want to spend a whole lot of money to build a less capable 914 (less range than gasoline, degraded handling vs. a stock 914, and shitty range as compared to purpose designed EV).

I call that the power pack unit in the video is roughly the weight of a six:

From information I can find on-line

Tesla rear motor unit: 290 lbs
26Kwh batteries (let's use the Beetle numbers) -- 280 lbs
Two cooling tanks with lets say 4 gallon of water - 32 lbs
Cradle with sufficient structure to support all the weight - 75 lbs (estimated)
Radiators -- 2 @ 4 lbs each = 8 lbs
Fans --4 @ 1 lb each = 4 lbs
Total = 689 lbs.

I'm a little unclear on where the power electronics are - are they in the front battery module or the rear? How much do they weigh (guessing about 10 lbs based on weight of Tesla SiC MOSFET inverter)? That looks like it may be the inverter DC to DC converter on the side of the rear battery pack?

Now lets talk moments of inertia

Look at this picture - that is A LOT of mass siting up at the TOP of the engine compartment. Not only the coolant but probably also the power electronics (inverter, DC/DC converter, some of the batteries, etc.) that are sitting up high in the engine compartment. This is unlike a boxer engine that puts most of that mass low in the vehicle. That is going to lead to increased propensity for the vehicle body roll as well as fore/aft pitch when braking and accelerating.



Now let's look this one



So the motor is well behind the rear axle. This is a 290 lb mass that is going to seriously degrade the handling by adding moment of inertia to the vehicle. Not only because of the mass and it's rearward placement, but also because it's running (and its gyroscopic rotation) laterially across the car. This is unlike the gas powertrain where the crankshaft, transmission gears, and differential, are centralized and rotating along the central axis of the vehicle.

Then of course we have the radiators stuck out at the farthest end. At least they are relatively light.

My main bitch with all this are the flippant remarks by those that do these conversions and gloss over them with remarks that it's about the same weight The burden of proof is not on me to prove that the vehicle has been degraded. It's PHYSICS. Those doing conversions don't get a pass on physics and math just because it's an EV.


I'm not saying my mass numbers or engineering analysis are 100% correct - I'm working with what I can find on-line. However, I am tired of having to be the one to dig out the numbers while those doing the conversions just spin a fairy tale about how good the vehicle is while driving a straight line down the motorway.

If these conversions are so good, then post numbers (mass, range, moments of inertia). Moments of inertia could easily be modeled with some basic CAD work. The onus is not on me . . . they have the components, they can measure where they are packaged, they can determine with a high degree of precision what the degradation is instead of me doing napkin math. Yet they never tell you that information . . . I wonder why?

I propose the following challenge for those that want to do an experiment to see how mass and its placement degrade vehicle handling.

Go to Home Depot, buy some 50 lb bags of pea gravel. They only cost about $4 a bag. Buy 6 bags (300 lbs). This will cost you all of $30 to learn a very important lesson in Physics. Go have a field day -- move that mass around between the Frunk, the passenger compartment, and the Trunk and see how it changes the vehicle handling. Arrange the mass longitudinally vs. laterally and note the change. If by chance you can't tell the difference . . . an EV conversion won't bother you a bit.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 26 2022, 10:01 AM

Love the optimism. You will get no where near 200 miles of range hauling heavy cargo or towing.

Before I left the industry, I was in discussions with the major RV manufacturers. They are very concerned about their business model given the coming mandates. As in, if EV's are mandated as currently planned, the RV industry ceases to exist.

Think towing ranges of 90 miles.

https://www.motor1.com/news/590117/f150-lightning-range-towing-camper/
"Before Schmidt connected the trailer to the truck, the range was 85 miles (137 kilometers). After entering the measurements of the trailer onto the system, the Lightning automatically recalculated the range to 54 mi (87 km). As for efficiency, he said that he's seeing 0.8 mi/kWh when the trailer's connected – around half of the usual 1.5-1.8 mi/kWh he's getting sans the Airstream camper."

Good thing you're towing the camper with an EV truck. You'll basically be living out of the camper while you're waiting for the next charge so you can move down the road another 100 miles.

I know . . . we'll just put an electric platform under the trailer so that it can provide it's own motive power, reducing parasitic load on the EV tow vehicle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQEztxVGEbI


Have you ever actually used a fast charger?

Now imagine:
1) Trying to find one with enough space for a truck and the trailer
2) A situation where you can charge both the truck and the trailer simultaneously
3) Having to disconnect the trailer to charge the truck. Then move the trailer to be charged - but putting the truck elsewhere while the trailer charges.
4) Not being murdered while napping in the camper by those lined up behind you waiting for their chance to charge.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 26 2022, 10:32 AM

wonkipop your dreaming. That car is the equivalent of a Top Fuel Dragster. Completely useless on the street for human needs.

Posted by: 914Sixer Jun 26 2022, 11:18 AM

WHO is training the local fire departments to handle these wonderful batteries? Oh yeah, isn't disposal on the same level as toxic waste. Are you going to put them with nuclear waste?

Posted by: bbrock Jun 26 2022, 11:18 AM

Goodness. That sure is a lot of extrapolating and speculation about my pickup use case. The farthest I've ever driven our pickup in the last 20 years is 40 miles one way. Truck is always empty on one direction. Ninety percent of loads hauled are lightweight building materials. The rest are loads of soil/gravel/etc. usually hauled only 20 miles. Trust me, 200 miles of range is PLENTY for our pickup needs even accounting for actual hauling range and I will probably never have to use a public charger. If I did, who said anything about a trailer? Did I mention a trailer?

Yes, I can read and understand what the truck can and cannot do. It fits our needs rather nicely. I get that it isn't the ticket for a lot of pickup owner's needs, but it would work well for us. BTW, another perk of this truck is that will make it easy to use power tools for projects on the "back 10" remote from the house. Can't say that about ICE.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 26 2022, 11:26 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

Yeah . . . I get that it it will work for your use case to haul an occasional sheet of plywood or to haul your ICE engine to the landfill

I was just having fun . . . like all other EV hype, I've been severely disappointed that the OEM's won't answer the heavy cargo and/or towing range question head on and have left it to 3rd party review like the one I posted. Instead, they are hoping that the public only remembers the 200 mile number and they are pretending an EV truck is just as capable as a ICE truck. Yet, simultaneously, they are already in discussion with the RV industry about the range deficiency.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 26 2022, 11:43 AM

They've been trained. . . . to let em' burn.



http://www.ev-institute.com/images/first_responder_poster.pdf

Posted by: bbrock Jun 26 2022, 11:58 AM

Agreed, and like I said before, we have a way to go before EVs are ready for critical mass in the overall market. I also think that a 100% phase out of ICE is highly unlikely, impractical, and unnecessary, but have little doubt that EVs will be a majority of the personal vehicle market before long without any mandates.

The EV fanboys on Youtube drive me nuts acting like spending hours on trips in dimly lit deserted back parking lots waiting for the batteries to charge is just part of the fun. It's ridiculous. I get equally annoyed by all the naysayers, like ICE is somehow perfect. Yeah, climate change and constant wars over oil is a real hoot. Not to mention that all the lead we've breathed from gasoline for nearly a century has made each of us on average 6 IQ points dumber. At least we finally fixed that one (almost) but not without a lot of complaining from many people about how horrible life would be without leaded gas.

Things are advancing rapidly though and we are on the verge of transformation. Two weeks ago I took a trip from Jackson Hole to Bozeman and was shocked at the number of Teslas I saw all along the trip. I expected to see them in Jackson which is in the richest county in the nation, but they were abundant even way out in the boonies. EV is rapidly changing technology that will continue to present challenges, but on the whole, it offers more advantages than disadvantages, and not just from a tree hugger standpoint. One of the coolest features (pun intended) is that you can leave the AC on to keep the dogs nice and comfy while parked on a hot day.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 26 2022, 04:51 PM

not a top fuel dragster at all - a t. f. d. does not go around corners.
or they didn't the last time i saw one.

the mcmurty is a circuit track car.
the design engineer is a young guy ex Williams F1/Mercedes F1
in a way - closest comparison would be the idea of the old lotus clubman?
except it is way faster in a straight line or in a corner.
i believe its designed to run flat out on a race track for around 40 minutes.
at the speeds being demonstrated at goodwood for that 40 minutes.

the fan powered downforce is the fantastic bit.
downforce without drag.
the old brabham F1 car or the chaparrel fan car?

they stuck an additional rear downforce wing on it for goodwood to go for the record.
they had the fans going as well.
watching the vid i thought it was on the verge of dangerous.
not much to protect the crowds if it had some kind of downforce failure?

there are vids around of it starting up.
makes a sound out of the fans that is a reasonable surrogate for an ICE engine.
ie a threatening sound.

yes its expensive. very. and its very small with one seat. etc.
but as is the way its usually a car like this that is first pointing the way?
what its telling you is what a stripped out pure sports car in the electric era will really be like. -- not a fricken mobile loungeroom with no dashboard stinking of toxic glue that drives itself and occasionally decides to end it all with you on board .....tesla.

trouble is i doubt i will live long enough to be able to park my backside in a mass market version of one.


gets me excited.
more excited than screwing around with electrifying an old beetle or a 914 and upsetting the character of an older car.

i look at that beetle for instance and all i can think is its now a front engined car.
no more swapping ends on a dirt road and having it go arse first into a ditch.
which is something i managed to do when i was about 18 years old.
scared the crap out of myself and forced me to learn to drive.
electric conversions of old cars are just cruisers? or am i wrong?

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 26 2022, 05:12 PM

yep.
germany has already banned full EVs with lithium ion batteries from most standard height multi storey car parks.
can't get the fire trucks in to douse a battery fire.

its under assessment here too.

i was involved with an apartment building that had a car stacker in the design.
the fire brigade took part in all reviews of it.
basically the car park had to be treated as a giant oven.
fully fire isolated from surrounding structure at all points.
the philosophy was let it burn and when its finished scrape it all out afterwards.
no way were they sending the firemen in to fight a fire if a battery went up in the stacker.

see that ship that burned a few months ago?

the electric motors are fine.
but it has to be said that elon musk forced everyone's hand on the batteries.
and i don't think it was a very good call.
but that may change in the decades down the track.

i deal with clients who want tesla wall batteries and car chargers incorporated into their houses. it does not even occur to them there are dangers. once the discussions around the design of the house get real serious its interesting watching them not hesitate to agree to a fire isolated garage structure for both the wall battery and the car.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 26 2022, 05:40 PM

another tit bit of information for ya.

i was out east in the state (thats in australia) two weeks ago for a bushfire rebuild job.
with my structural engineer mate.
we went down to the sailing club he is a member of for a few evening ales.
interesting guys hang out there.

just off shore of 90 mile beach is the big oil and gas fields that got opened up by ESSO in the 60s (thats EXXON). those fields just pump gas these days into a big pipeline that comes inshore in a couple of spots. we were drinking with a guy who is way up the food chain looking after the system.

basically the life of those fields will now be determined by the life of the offshore rigs not the field itself. the decision has already been made.

he said the rigs are already past their designed lifespan by 20 years and have been given a go ahead to be maintained as best as possible for another 10 then .......lights out.

i imagine its the same all around the world.

the oil infrastructure is slowly being turned off.
its a lot of money to maintain that infrastructure.

it got me thinking because once the pipeline gets on shore it just goes everywhere and basically connects into an entire east coast of australia gas network.

all that is going to be sacrificed at some point in the next few decades and it seems the implementation of the shut down has commenced.

the australian public it seems has not been informed of that.

the offshore rigs are still owned by EXXON.
or some sub company of them.

the australian govt. never had the $ in the first place to develop the fields in the post war years nor would it have the ability to extract further life out of the resource.

interesting times.

Posted by: 930cabman Jun 26 2022, 05:57 PM

My nephew recently sold his Tesla and went (back to) a 991. Smart kid, said the "S" was just not right for him.

Posted by: windforfun Jun 26 2022, 06:52 PM

Hmmm... I think you should run for office. Seriously. If you do, don't forget about the SHIFT key. Best to you & yours.

Posted by: windforfun Jun 26 2022, 06:54 PM

Right on!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: 914e Jun 26 2022, 09:43 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428

My goal is to weigh the same as a six. One thing I should point out is those conversions used a small drive unit which is roughly 198 pounds. The battery weight sounds about right. The contactors, relay, BMS and so on are in the high part of the battery box, next to the large coolant tank.

On my car I will start at the front. The front pack weighs 95 pounds, the mount, fuses, BMS around 14 pounds. So roughly the weight and location of a full full tank.

I have a 2.5 pound 12 volt battery where EGR counter was located.

The motor is a Hyper9 125 HP, 170 lbs/ft of torque it weights 120 pounds (with the inverter/controller), The transaxle dictates the motor location, the flywheel is 5.25 pounds, the pressure plate is 13 pounds, the disc is stock. I would love to find a lighter pressure plate and disc.

The two rear packs are also 95 pounds each. They are located 1-3/8" above the floor pan, the case is about 1/4" from the firewall and sit on each side of the motor. All the rear mass is a below the top of the trans axle. My engine/ battery cradle weighs 24.5 pounds, the battery cases are a total of 26.5 pounds. Two chargers at 11.5 pounds each. One at the original battery location one at the relay box location. 23 pounds of copper cabling and 15 pounds of contactors, fuses, relays, and DC to DC convertor.

So I'm a around 428 pounds at the location that from what I can find is around 350 pounds for a four and 450 pounds for a six. I believe the mass is a little lower and closer to the center than a six. From what I have found of people weighing complete engine and ancillary parts that seems to be close.I never had an engine to weigh so I have to go off what documentation I can find.

Posted by: TonyH Jun 27 2022, 01:22 AM

I have a dread of running out of charge with an electric car. The idea of chopping a classic car does not appeal to me one bit. But, that is one neat reversible conversion. If it had a decent range, meaning you could actually drive somewhere, it might be a winner.

A bit like airships, nice idea but are they practical?

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 27 2022, 06:12 AM

yeah no worries. i'm not really into reforming, just resignation.

i just saw that the little electric car did smash the hill climb record at goodwood.
most people at goodwood were reported to have grins from ear to ear watching it do it.

it is the future.....whether we like it or not.
just saying.

i'm pretty sure that politicians down here will find a way to ban it before anything like it could ever get near a public road. so not much point wasting time trying to alter the inevitable.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 27 2022, 08:30 AM

I think that is an admirable goal. Just be aware (which it seems you are) that weight isn't the only thing. It also matters where the weight is located and how it is oriented.



@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=23951

Whats 90 lbs among friends.

So we'll call the total 600 lbs for that rear module. Way to heavy and the fact is that motor is still behind the axle and is a serious degradation as far as driving dynamics are concerned.

In all honesty, I'm intrigued by your conversion proposal. You get extra points in my book by retaining a transmission and a clutch pedal as an anti-theft device.

It sounds like you are at least trying to minimize the handling degradation and have a decent chance of achieving something close based on what you've laid out. A big chunk of your success will depend where that front mass goes. If you can get it inside the fuel tank compartment, that is a huge success to keep mass centralized. As it continues to move forward from the OEM location, you'll be adding to moment of inertia even though the weight might be close to a full fuel tank. Location of the front weight matters a lot.

Do you have a build thread? If not, please start one and let's see how it shapes up.

Posted by: GeorgeKopf Jun 27 2022, 12:23 PM

It is very simple. If the batteries start to burn, just shoot the car into space.

Posted by: bbrock Jun 27 2022, 12:57 PM

Why? Didn't @914e show it can be done with 428 lbs? It's fine to be skeptical, but you are just speculating on the weight of the conversions.



This is all I've been trying to say all along.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 27 2022, 03:41 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428

As someone who used to work at a conversion company and has driven almost one of everything, I feel you are over estimating the impact the weight shift has. Will it be noticed... yes to a skilled driver, will it kill the gocart feel... not so much.

How many of us actually drive curvy roads at 10/10 where it would be detrimental like a 911 The 911 seems to do ok in racing too

I have a complete t4 package in the garage, I will have to weight it as I thought it was 280 ish.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 27 2022, 04:30 PM

While it may be true that some people don't have the ability to notice - those are folks best served by EV's in general and EV conversions specifically. However, I've been a professional development engineer and test driver capable of doing limit handling and chassis tuning for most of my career.

It matters. To say otherwise is to argue that physics doesn't apply to EV's. Handling maneuvers don't have to be at 10/10 to notice either. Simple transient maneuvers like emergency lane change and/or how well the vehicle turns into a constant radius corner will be enough to tell the difference.

If anyone is unsure where they fall in handling sensitivity spectrum, $30 of pea gravel should help them determine what they are or aren't capable of feeling.

With respect to the 911 comments . . . . long ago, I choose the 914 because it has superior handling to a 911 of the same vintage. I don't see the need to turn a 914 into a 911 since they are already out there if someone wants that experience.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 27 2022, 04:34 PM

I admitted I'm intrigued. Would like to see it physically done or at least modeled in CAD before we celebrate. Sometimes reality has a way of getting in the way of the product as conceived. Not saying that will happen here but it is my nature to be a skeptic.

Posted by: CCE Jun 27 2022, 04:49 PM

I do agree EV is the future, and technology is moving very fast this days, everyone will be able to get the new EV technology for cheap very soon…

Just don’t break your precious 914 Porsche just now, gas will continue existing, (maybe more expensive), you will have your tool to commute. And your gas burning fumes and noise generator to smile on the weekends.

If you want an electric Porsche you can get a Taycan…

Posted by: bbrock Jun 27 2022, 05:06 PM

I do think we should be careful not to use value statements like "degrades" handling characteristics since that presumes the owner's preferences. I've heard people say the BUBs on late model 914 make the cars more comfortable for touring. One person's "degrade" may be another's "improve." IMO, one of the coolest things about 914s is how versatile they are for a 2-seater sports car.

I'll have to say, if I was a good enough driver to swing the tail of a 911 out around corners, I think I'd find them quite fun. I've come close in a 914 twice. Both times the car spun like a top. It wasn't on purpose of course. A combo of sand covered roads, bald tires, and undeveloped brain contributed. Rather shocking how quickly one goes from feeling firmly planted to watching the scenery repeat several times in a couple seconds. Might have been avoided if I'd have been hauling some sand bags in each trunk.

Posted by: bbrock Jun 27 2022, 05:11 PM

Nah, This is the electric Porsche for me

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 27 2022, 05:14 PM

i've got a feeling what might happen, at least down here, is you might at some point have to purchase C02 credits to run old cars as well as find the gasoline. but thats some way off. of course there are the zealots who want to ban petrol cars period by such and such a date. but i think they will be regarded as extremists for a good while yet.

but..... i do think though we might be going from one energy crisis to another.
a hydrocarbon energy shortage/difficulty to an electricity energy crisis? i seriously doubt there will be enough electricity to go around once the car fleet does gain momentum and electric take up gets a head of steam. i can see that one happening.

anyway onward.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 27 2022, 05:17 PM

This is all I've been trying to say all along.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing how to degrade the range of a 914.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 27 2022, 05:18 PM

don't forget his tiger tank proposal/prototype.
probably would have worked better at hauling 70 tons of king tiger than the poor old maybach V12?

Posted by: bbrock Jun 27 2022, 05:22 PM

I thought this was a good discussion of that question. Of course, if we could just get over irrational fears of nuclear power, we could save ourselves a lot of headache.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfyG6FXsUU

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 27 2022, 05:35 PM

as you probably know bbrock australia has a hysterical fear of nuclear power second only to new zealand.

but.........oddly its suddenly being openly canvassed in public discussions after half a century as a taboo subject.

the recent controversial cancelation of a french conventional powered submarine contract (probably ignored by the press in the usa since austalia is irrelevant as a country) was followed by an announcement by the govt that we would be purchasing US nuclear submarines and that US nuclear submarines would be admitted into naval ports in australia. of course US nuclear subs have been going into secure naval ports in western australia for years (the indian ocean fleet) but no one talks about that.

so ........... the subject has been gently introduced.

the logic would be - children, you can't have your tesla for desert until you eat all your plutonium.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 27 2022, 06:12 PM

yeah that is a good discussion.

i especially like that he touched on the ability to find a place to charge the car.
ie apartment dwellers who park in the street.
right now a lot of electric take up is by folks in aus who live in stand alone houses - its no issue to plug in the cord. but i have noticed all sorts of ramshackle set ups starting to happen in the inner city areas where relatively wealthy middle class people live in terrace houses. i think you guys call them row houses. people park in the street there. and they have been running cords across the sidewalk from their houses to their new teslas.
with silly little safety stripped cover boards over them on the sidewalk. all of which is illegal. won't be long before someone trips up and the legals come in like vultures and there will be a crackdown.

there will definitely be power rationing going on - in the sense at least of forcing folks to use obscure times of the night and timers as well as incentives to charge their cars.

as well as thinking of some imaginative ways to build a variation on the petrol station as a charging station. for folks with cars that live in the street. i imagine those urban charging stations might be multi storey structures a bit like parking garages.

i guess i think of these things because of my line of work. there will be changes to the urban landscape to deal with the new cars as they populate.

one thing i don't see happening is that people give up cars or do the car share rental thing. we have a few zealots bashing that idea down here. i just can't see that flying.
the car has been an amazing tool freeing individuals and i think that will be the one constant. folks are not going to give up on the idea of their car, or owning it.
but i could be wrong.

Posted by: flipb Jun 28 2022, 11:06 AM

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is maintenance and dependability.

How much time do most of us spend chasing vacuum leaks, bad injectors, carb rebuilds, fuel issues, valve adjustments, oil changes, etc. etc.

All of that goes away with an EV. I've lived with one as my DD for 6 years now and while the torque and practicality are great, one of the most remarkable things in retrospect is that I don't have to ever think about maintenance. Once in those five years, I needed the 12v battery replaced. And there have been plenty of minor inconvenience fixes, most due to Mr. Musk's tendency toward gadgetry (damn retractable door handles). Drive all day, come home, plug in, go to bed, repeat.

Right now, my 914 is sitting in the garage because it's suddenly decided to only run on 3 cylinders. If it were as turnkey as the Tesla -- with moderately more torque and imperceptibly (to me) compromised handling -- it would get driven a hell of a lot more.

Posted by: sechszylinder Jun 28 2022, 11:30 AM

From my point of view its complete nonesense to convert a 914 into a golfcart only due to the fact that it is technically possible.
The 914 has been designed for an ICE, all the design of the car is based on that idea.
Maybe EVs are the future and even if this is going to become reality within the next 20 years, why should i convert one of these nice cars into something which performs not like the real thing?
EVs suffer from battery weight and thats the reason why EVs need to be carefully designed and outlined, something that will never succeed by converting ICE based cars.

So, enjoy your cars running on real fuel as long as we‘re able to buy it. Enjoy the handling, the sound, the smell, the acceleration and the remembrance of a better time.

Or, buy a Tesla, or should I say, buy a VW, since I‘m german ?

BR

Benno

Posted by: 930cabman Jun 28 2022, 11:32 AM

hardly an equal comparison, a newer EV to a near 50 years old sporting car. I am still voting for our ICE's at least until sometime the technology catches up.

And if I may make a minor correction "Drive all day" I was unaware any EV's had this capability?

Also, great thread to get one's feathers ruffled

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 28 2022, 11:41 AM

Please report back in 50 years (maybe sooner) when IGBT's and batteries start failing.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 28 2022, 11:44 AM

Then spend the money/time to make it a brand new car like the Tesla....

Eventually the Tesla will need parts. The screen, cameras, blower motor & resistors, relays, window regulator, water pump, axle boots, seals, bushings, bearings... all stuff from the standard parts suppliers. Then there is the heater and comp that will eventually wear out. Worried yet

Posted by: flipb Jun 28 2022, 11:46 AM

Definitely fair. But a brand-new EV requires less maintenance than a brand-new ICE vehicle, too. Manufacturers who require regular maintenance on their EV models are doing so for the revenue, not because it's technically required.


A typical day for me is 40-50 miles of running around. Maybe 70 if I really have to go somewhere out of the way. My 9 year old base-model Tesla has a usable range of about 180mi. A brand new one comes with 400 miles of range. How many people drive more than 400mi/day, other than cargo delivery? Lucid Air has a 500mi range. Plenty of affordable EVs can run 200-275mi/day. Some real-world data on daily driving distances here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191261516309067


Look, I can't speak with authority about how to shave 3/4 of a second off your lap time, or how to rebuild a carb. But I do have a pretty solid amount of experience living with an EV as my daily driver. It's hilarious to me that people who lack this experience are trying to explain to me the deficiencies of EVs.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 28 2022, 11:49 AM

10 mph * 10 hrs in LA traffic = 100 miles. Drive all day.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 28 2022, 11:57 AM

Lots.

When I used to get overnight competitor vehicles for bench marking purposes I'd easy put 300-400 miles on a vehicle over a 12 hour period if it was an especially cool car.

I regularly travel cross country driving 16 - 20 hours per day. I'm usually shooting for a 1000 mile day.

Even a weekend joy ride in the car or on one of the motorcycles will go 200 - 300 miles over the course of a morning & afternoon.

EV's have a place and purpose but don't assume others share EV friendly use cases.

Oh come on you say . . . .

Lots of kids from Detroit Metro area attend college at Michigan Tech in Houghton, Michigan. Pretty long drive back & forth. Michigan Tech runs a automotive winter test facility (KRC) in that area that I used to test out of. Drive up Sunday night, drive home Friday afternoon.



You're cherry picking . . . .

Northern Michigan University


Lake Superior State University.

Posted by: Shivers Jun 28 2022, 12:20 PM

Are the negatives we will endure being forced to convert to EV, really be worth it for 12% reduction in Co2 . This is a much bigger picture than the one they are showing the public. Until batteries can get a normal human to and from an emergency call from your Parents, Grand Parents or Kids, it will be unrealistic as real transportation. But running the kids to school and back or a Cars and Coffee oddity is cool. They are planning on some type of lithium extraction at the south end of the Salton Sea. Smoke from fire or an algae bloom is blown right to the populated areas north of Salton Sea. The population here, rich and poor will be right in the way. Nothing has been said about us. Remember Bhopal, India and Union Carbide? To me it all looks like an environmental and economic disaster.


"But what of all the extra electricity needed to power those cars, wouldn’t that add some extra emissions? Technically, we found that the switch to electric cars would save 14% from the total carbon emissions. However it would also cause an increase in carbon emissions from electricity power stations equivalent to about 2% of total national emissions (assuming current mix of fossil and renewable energy sources).

Adding the reduction in driving emissions, and subtracting the extra electricity generation emissions means that, in all, the UK would emit 42 million tonnes less of CO₂ into the atmosphere each year – a 12% reduction on the 351.5 million tonnes emitted in total last year."

*******************************************************

However, according to California regulations, all lithium batteries tested are classified hazardous due to excessive levels of cobalt (average 163 544 mg/kg; σ = 62 897; limit 8000), copper (average 98 694 mg/kg; σ = 28 734; limit 2500), and nickel (average 9525 mg/kg; σ = 11 438; limit 2000). In some of the Li-ion batteries, the leached concentrations of chromium, lead, and thallium exceeded the California regulation limits. The environmental impact associated with resource depletion and human toxicity is mainly associated with cobalt, copper, nickel, thallium, and silver, whereas the ecotoxicity potential is primarily associated with cobalt, copper, nickel, thallium, and silver. However, the relative contribution of aluminum and lithium to human toxicity and ecotoxicity could not be estimated due to insufficient toxicity data in the models. These findings support the need for stronger government policy at the local, national, and international levels to encourage recovery, recycling, and reuse of lithium battery materials.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 28 2022, 12:33 PM

Everything is CA is classified as hazardous via Prop 65

For a few years I was working out of Santa Clara. The building had a Prop 65 warning posted at the door . .. .

Fully agree though that the only path toward viability of EV's for the masses won't occur until raw materials can be obtained within a reasonable risk / benefit framework and with recycling of used batteries eventually contributing to the bulk of new battery production.

Posted by: Root_Werks Jun 28 2022, 12:48 PM

EV's won't happen until there's no longer money to be made from gas....rather until there's less money to be made in gas vs. batteries.

Had a chance to buy one of the early Tesla Roadsters off an Estate. Wonderful car, battery range was decent for age of battery/number of cycles. Glad I passed on it, $40k to have the battery rebuilt.

What's the stat from 1903? Something like 97% of all vehicles on the road were electric. Hell, even the charging plug was standardized by SAE. Then gas really took off, steam and electric powered motor carriages went away.

Convert a 914 to EV? Sure, if it was the option that allowed me to keep driving the car.

Posted by: Shivers Jun 28 2022, 01:19 PM

Hahahaha, True that. Prop 65 is killing fly's with Thermite.

As a youngster, I used MEK to weld plastic in LA county. "Gloves?!?" says the forman "No worries guys..." We heard his version of - "We don't need no stinking badges! " It should have been Prop 32.5...Hell nothing makes sense here any more.

Posted by: bbrock Jun 28 2022, 08:20 PM

Wait. Fifty years before they need maintenance? Sign me up!

Posted by: bbrock Jun 28 2022, 09:13 PM

Yes, these are fun things to ponder with wild possibilities. I agree that EV currently makes most sense for people who can easily charge at home and whose travels begin and end at home to minimize frustrations of public charging stations. We just had solar installed on our house which now makes it a no-brainer that our next car will be a plug-in hybrid. The one we are eyeing has a 42 mile EV range which is plenty for our daily commuting even allowing for significantly less range in cold winter weather. For those longer trips, there is an ICE that gets 38 mpg which is more than 10 mpg higher than our current DD. We'll need to add a few more panels to our solar system to accommodate the increased load, but that is trivial. My calculations indicate that the gasoline we won't by with this set up will cut the payback time of the solar system to less than half. A no brainer.

I do not think EVs are ready for long (multiple fill up) trips. The range of EVs is already competitive with ICE but the charge times and public charging infrastructure are big problems. When EV charging is as convenient as pumping gas, they'll be ready. Minimally, I think when you can get 200+ miles of range in 15 minutes, then benefits of EV will out weigh problems for most people. Ideally this would be 300+ miles in 10 minutes but I feel like 200/15 will be the tiping point.

Once you cross that barrier which I think will happen fairly quickly, it opens a couple possibilities for charging. One is that we just retrofit gas stations with chargers and people continue to top off their batteries like we currently top off tanks. However, I think the convenience of home charging will be a strong lure that is only increased for people who can produce their own power to charge their cars. I would expect to see parking meter style chargers popping up at most outdoor parking spaces which could either be "owned" by a townhouse or condo owner, or metered so anyone parked there can pay for a charge. That gets rid of the scramble of improvised cables, but then we'll have to figure out how to keep people from stealing cables for the copper.

With millions of cars plugged into chargers at a given time, things get really interesting because not only can those cars take power out of the grid, they can also put power back in. There are working prototypes where people can sell power from their car batteries to the grid. They decide how much range they need to have in their cars and when so they always have the charge they need on hand. The system runs like the stock market so the car owner buys power low and sells high.
Very interesting to think about for balancing renewable energy power. All those car batteries combined with sophisticated automatic redistribution could be a major part of the renewable storage problem. I still think we'll need some nukes sprinkled in, but fascinating possibilities.

Finally for car sharing. I agree it is only going to work for a fairly small market with current technology, but what happens when we have self-driving cars? Could be a game changer because cars could redistribute themselves. A sharing system might not look any different to the end user than private ownership. When they walk out to get in a car, it is there waiting for them even though it has been on other errands when the user wasn't looking. It could even add flexibility because the car waiting could change. Someone needs a pickup one day? There it is. Next day they want a minivan, and there it is.

Interesting possibilities.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jun 29 2022, 12:18 AM

So, how do you feel about Small-Block Chevy conversions?

--DD

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 29 2022, 12:31 AM

i know someone who has been through 3 touchscreens so far on her tesla.
she is a bit pissed off about it too.
i think they kind of get paralysed when that happens.
hopefully mr musk got on top of that one.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 29 2022, 12:42 AM

yes, they make complete sense as an urban commuter vehicle and even weekend vehicle within reasonable range of the city, even in aus, even right now.

and you are right, you don't really have to touch them for the first few years of ownership. just check the tyres etc. complete appliance.

my job means i do have a problem with distance.
every two years of so i get a job with an easy 350km distance to site involved. 700k round trip.
and once i get into construction phases of a project where i have to go and do site inspections it can get down to once a week or fortnight and last for months on end.
most evs just wouldn't get me there. but a hybrid easily would.
three years ago i did a job that was 700k one way.
not that i want to do that again. good thing petrol was cheaper.
glad i didn't quote fees on that job without factoring in a european war.
i used my little renault for that work. funny thing is out on the highway it goes damn near close to a hybrid in terms of mpg efficiency. still not a stark enough difference to make the jump. but if the numbers added up i would do it and the hybrid was the right sort of car too. but they ain't. they are pretty ordinary offerings down here so far.

i did chase a first gen honda insight about 10 years ago. a very cool car. unfortunately enough other guys thought they were too so they all got chased down for high $ and are tightly held. cult status? its still a car i'd like to get hold of. very purist and attractive vehicle in terms of design and technology.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 29 2022, 12:52 AM

they have a ways to go on autonomous vehicles.
possibly might work in the city environments well before open roads.
lower vehicle speeds might assist with robotics and acceptance.
but yes its possible fleets of vehicles might be moving around the city.
basically a robotic taxi fleet.
the city has the density to pull it off where you don't have to wait too long.
in a way we already much closer to that with trains.
they will probably end up driverless too and maybe before the cars?

Posted by: 930cabman Jun 29 2022, 04:52 AM

Unless you have a crystal ball nobody can know where we will be in 1,5,20 years. I do know technology is racing along and can hardly doubt anybody's claim to anything. Hold on tight boys and girls

All the while I still enjoy my little 914

Posted by: bbrock Jun 29 2022, 07:33 AM

Exactly why I'm not interested in Tesla or several other EV models. Replacing an ICE and fuel tank with electric motors and batteries is one thing. Trying to convert a car to a space ship is another. I recently learned you can't even open the glove box on some Teslas without using the tablet. No thank you. IIRCC, VW has gone overboard on the techie stuff in their EVs too.

Buttons, switches and knobs are good things. Ever try using a touch screen with calloused fingers, or worse, with gloves on?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 29 2022, 08:51 AM

I'm not sure I want to kick that hornets nest right now.

Physics is Physics. It really doesn't matter what the powertrain is.

When modifications start increasing weight, raising Cg height, and increasing polar moment of inertia, handling moves away from the nimble chassis that the 914 started with.

I don't know who said it, but a universal truth of automotive engineering is that "weight begets more weight".

Sometimes that weight gain is driven by HP gains (need larger brakes, stronger trans, stronger axles, bigger tires, etc.), other times that weight is driven by the powertrain choice itself and it's cooling implications. Without offsets, that weight gain can quickly spiral out of control and affects polar moment of inertia adversely.

Personally, my psyche is invested in what originally drew me to Porsche back in the mid-eighties. Light weight, air cooled, handling unlike any American Iron I had experienced prior to my driving my buddy's early-70's vintage 911 in early 1987. Subsequent seat time in the mid engine 914 convinced me that was the better chassis vs. the 911 even though it certainly wasn't faster than a 911 of the same era. My bias is toward steering and handling - less toward acceleration. That's just me and it's different from most gear heads that want to "Hot Rod" or EV fans that want other attributes like limited or perceived zero emissions, less NVH, etc. Others will have different preferences - that's OK.

Posted by: SavingManuals Jun 29 2022, 09:24 AM

Posted by: bbrock Jun 29 2022, 11:26 PM

Despite our trading jabs over the subject, I am actually of the same opinion. Heck, I didn't even increase displacement when I rebuilt my engine. The carbs were an unfortunate accident of timing. However, I think EV conversions are as valid and interesting as any other conversion and appreciate well done examples. I'm not a conversion guy, but if I were, I think it would have to be EV.

Posted by: wonkipop Jun 29 2022, 11:58 PM

the same woman has now become obsessed with tyre "roar".
i wonder why?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 30 2022, 05:48 AM

Wind noise is the other very common complaint on EV's year to year in JD Power surveys.

Posted by: Chris914n6 Jun 30 2022, 11:45 PM

Speaking of Tesla... insurance.

2004 Blazer $1212 yr
2013 Fiat 500e $1560 yr (happened across one for sale locally)
2020 Tesla Y $3012 yr

$1800 buys 7,200-10k miles in the Blazer, more than I typically DD. So no Tesla in my near future.

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 1 2022, 01:29 AM

yeah you can see where its going to go.
double glazing.
smooth bodies.
and tyre tech and sound proofing off the hook.

kind of the opposite of everything a 914 is?
in terms of you know sensory input.
it will be sensory detachment?

i think i am pleased to have lived through the era i have.
not sure the future is going to be exactly sane.
might encourage a kind of neurosis?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 1 2022, 03:12 AM

Well, that is definitely a consistent viewpoint!

Still, I think the EV conversions are just as valid and possibly even more interesting than the V8 conversions. (Barring Marty's unbelievable monster, that is!)

None of them give the same experience as a stock 914, but they're still pretty neat.





Predicting 1 year is easy. We'll be basically in the same situation as now.

Predicting 5 years isn't that bad. Generally, things will be about the same as now, but there may be some changes that are more accepted than they currently are.

20 years is a lot harder to guess...

--DD

Posted by: nsyr Jul 1 2022, 06:39 AM

I enjoy reading all the "negative" comments on EV's because I used to share them myself. I don't like the word negative because a lot of them are legitimate concerns regarding EV's.

I have had a handful of Porsches. And 25 years I never owned an automatic. I now have a Tesla Model 3 Performance. Before I bought it I hated the model 3. I hated the minimalist interior, the lack of controls and buttons (opening glove box with 'tablet'). But it quickly grew on me. Now when I drive my wife's Honda Pilot (Well over 50 buttons/switches/knobs) it is just too busy. BTW, opening the glove box from the center screen is pretty quick and it does provide automatic security as you cannot open it if you break into the car. The car is very intuitive and adds a lot of conveniences that you wouldn't think of in every day driving. As for performance it is very quick. 0-60 3.2 seconds and the throttle response will give you whiplash. First time I mashed the throttle while cruising at 45 mph I smacked my head on the back of the seat.

The battery technology has and is currently improving but still remains the weak point in my opinion. Long distance travel is doable but you will spend 15-20 minutes at a supercharger every 200 miles. 95% of my driving is around town so it is not an issue and plugging a charger in it (twice a week) takes less than 10 seconds and is done at home and not a gas station.

I am in Florida and the state has limited insurance companies from charging excessive amounts for coverage. When I got coverage they never even asked what version of Model 3 I had. Comprehensive is the only one that costs more as the car is expensive to repair. Everything else costs less than my wife's car and less than what I paid for the Infiniti I had before the Tesla.

I fully understand the hesitancy to 'welcome' electric cars as I was definitely one of them. I used to rag on them saying the exact same things a lot of people here are saying. But now I don't think I could ever go back to an ICE car as a daily driver.

Feel free to ask questions.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jul 1 2022, 09:20 AM

Funny how Physics is like that -- it doesn't care about my opinion or anyone else's.



I don't disagree, as long as we don't pretend that the vehicle still handles like a stock 914.

A Pantera is neat - if I wanted a quirky, vintage mid engine car with an American V8 - this would be my 1st choice.

Even Telsa's are neat w.r.t acceleration -- I've been saying for years on this forum, that no matter what conversion you do to a 914 (including cobbled EV's), you're not going to match the wicked fast acceleration of a Tesla running Ludicrious or Plaid mode. Without AWD and stupid wide tires, you'll never get enough rubber and tractive effort under a 914 to match the Tesla.

There were also a lot of other "neat" EV ideas that never quite made it for varying reasons.
Anyone remember these?
GM EV1
Corbin Sparrow
Aptera (still kicking around -- at least on paper).

Li-ion batteries were a game changer with respect to decreasing battery weight and increasing range. However, to pretend that EV's are just as practical as ICE for those of us that need to travel large distances is just folly given today's realities. Might it change in the distant future - very possibly. As you stated earlier, it wont be in the next year or even the next 5.

Posted by: 914e Jul 3 2022, 11:53 PM

I have a build thread, I will have to find it and update it. There didn't seem to be much interest in it, so I stopped updating it.

Posted by: 914e Jul 4 2022, 12:34 AM

Batteries like everything else are hard to find right now.

The VDA 355 module format is somewhat of a standard typical is:
Module size: 355*151*108(mm) Module specification: 3P4S/4P3S Rated capacity: 153/204(Ah) Rated voltage: 14.6/10.95(V) I believe the iPace used this size.


VW seems to be using the VDA 590 format
Capacity: 156Ah, 6.85kWh
Height: 11 cm
Width: 22.5 cm
Length: 59 cm
Weight: 32 kg
Bolt Size: M6
Voltage nominal: 3.7V/Cell, 44.4V/Module
Charge voltage cut-off: 4.2V/Cell, 50.V/Module
Discharging cut-off: 3.3V/Cell, 39.6/Module
Maximum Discharging Current (10 sec.): 800 Amps

Finding used modules from a totaled car is the what most people are currently doing. $100 a kWh is still the going rate for used modules.

Posted by: mate914 Jul 4 2022, 06:30 AM

This is part of the list of 6000 things make from oil.
Please go through the list and mark off what you can live with out?
Please keep in mind with out most of this stuff millions of people would be dead.





Solvents Diesel fuel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher parts Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Shoelace Aglets
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician’s Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD’s & DVD’s Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

Matt

Posted by: Puebloswatcop Jul 4 2022, 06:57 AM

The sad thing is all of the oil and fossil fuel it takes to make and charge these batteries. Then the poisons they leave behind when they are no longer usable. Everyone thinks these are the green of tomorrow and yes they might help clean up our air, but they will be the carcinogens causing all kinds of cancer in the future.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jul 5 2022, 03:41 AM

What does that have to do with anything?? Do you imagine that people driving EVs will automagically close all of the oil wells instantaneously??




EVs are touted by some (particularly Elon fanboys) as being the be-all end-all. They're not. We've seen circumstances discussed here that they are a very poor fit for.

But they're not useless, or toys, or golf carts. They have a very real place in our mobility in the future. Something like 90% of the population of the US personal transportation needs could be met exclusively by the types of EVs we currently have on the market.

I think 914 EVs are interesting conversions. More so, to me, than the near-ubiquitous small-block Chevy swap.

--DD

Posted by: bbrock Jul 5 2022, 08:55 AM

Isn't this a strong argument FOR EVs? All these useful and not so useful things we can make out of oil. Why do we want to just burn it?

Posted by: bbrock Jul 5 2022, 08:59 AM

This argument was debunked a decade ago and has only gotten less of a concern since then. https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cleaner-cars-cradle-grave

Posted by: strawman Jul 5 2022, 01:43 PM

Many of you on this site know me as the guy who has a crazy-fast WRX-powered Porsche 914 autocrosser that is also street "legal" here in CA. But I also own a stock 914, so I can attest that they are two completely different animals.

I am an engine swapping fiend, including in the past 20 years: fuel-injected Suzuki Sidekick engine into a Samurai rock-crawler, a VW GTi engine in a former diesel-powered Vanagon Westy, a Subaru 2.2 engine into a Vanagon Westy Syncro, Suby engine in my 1973 914, a BMW M3 S52 engine into a lightweight-ish 318ti, a 3.0 liter 24-valve M54 engine into a 1985 former diesel-powered BMW E28, a 2.7 liter V6 engine into a Hyundai Elantra 24 Hrs of Lemons racecar, and an M54 engine into a BMW E12-based E24 Lemons racecar that I'm currently wrapping up. More power always makes a car more enjoyable to me, although the underlying characteristics (some good and some bad) of a car certainly change.

For the past 80k miles, my daily driver is a 2015 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid. Its battery gets me to/from work everyday (range is ~32 miles; my commute is 11 miles each way), and I usually go 4-5 weeks without having to fill up with Premium gas for its ICE. Sure, it is an "appliance" that only makes me smile when I see how many miles I've traveled since my last gas fill up -- especially with Premium gas at almost $7/gallon here on the CA Central Coast (usually highest in the Nation!). But I've got a ton of solar panels on my workshop, so much of my driving in the Volt comes to me at no dollar cost. Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman (a 914 owner!) posted about me recently using my Volt to fill-in when my 914 autocrosser was broken



A guy who used to autocross his Subaru WRX STI here on the Central Coast would normally finish mid-pack. In other words, I'd beat him in my Suby-powered 914. But he's now finishing first or in the top 5 with his new Tesla Model 3 Performance. Despite its heft, that car accelerates harder and stops quicker than seems possible! His wife co-drives it occasionally and, even though she's a novice, she turns in impressive times, too. The technology is definitely progressing. Since my 914 has already been bastardized, I would definitely consider going EV with it when I get tired of the 302whp that the Suby engine provides (or if I blow it up AGAIN!).

As an aside, I manage the regional public transit system here in SLO County, and we just issued a purchase order for our first two battery-electric buses. The conventional wisdom is that a vehicle's lithium battery pack will diminish over time to about 70% of the original level after 400k to 500k miles, and then stay at that level for a long time afterward. Of course, that has yet to be fully proven on today's modern lithium batteries, but only time will tell. In any case, there is definitely a second-life market for them as back-up power; they have great value to store on-site generated solar power. We have allocated space in our bus yard for that future use of our old bus batteries for another 10 yrs when the bus is retired, after which the batteries can be recycled.

One last thought: transmitting electricity can be safer and cleaner than transporting oil. Fallen power lines can and do start fires, while oil pipelines fail, trucks overturn and ships leak. That doesn't mean I hate internal combustion engines -- quite the contrary. I own two 914s, a 1956 VW Beetle, a Class A motorhome, a big block Suburban, a BMW E46 convertible, two BMW E28s, A C5 Corvette, a forklift, a trail bike, etc. But I do believe electrification of our transportation sector over time will continue to march on during the second five decades of my life.

Posted by: GeorgeKopf Jul 10 2022, 09:32 PM

This TED talk does a pretty good job of explaining where we are today with electric vehicles.

The contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk

Of course if you don't buy into his premises then you won't accept his conclusion.

George

Posted by: wonkipop Jul 11 2022, 04:29 AM

meanwhile

this hit the news down here.
porsche. e-fuels. and tasmania?!!!!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-10/efuel-plant-proposed-for-tasmanias-north-west/101223944

Posted by: sechszylinder Jul 12 2022, 07:49 AM

I think, the fact is, that there will be e fuels for application fields, where electricity is not available, not apliccable or not effficiently to use.
Think about aviation, the military, navy, very heavy trucks and so on.
From my point of view this is the key enabler.
When manufacturarer of e fuels will see, that there is a market, besides the mentioned applications, they will jump in and will produce derivates, e.g. e fuel for ice engines.
At the end of the day, its a question of the price tag.

On the other hand, the EU for example has decided on the prohibition of producing ICE based cars from 2032 on.
This means in the opposite, that there will fuel for at least 10 years. And if you take into account, that the last produced cars in 2032 will have a lifetime of at least 6 years one may come to the assumption, that fuel will be available for that time period.
Again, a question of the price tag…

In the meantime I will enjoy my cars in the same way as gourmets enjoy there meals. Not every day, but on a regular basis.

One thing I‘ve forgot to mention: We do already have high prices for fuel, due to the russian agression. This makes as well e fuels an attractive market for manufacturer, cause the high prices are somewhat accepted and the break even point maybe comes closer.

BR

Benno