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Posted by: Ishley Aug 2 2022, 09:20 PM

I have a 1972 1.7 that I’m restoring. One of the areas that I can’t find any information on is how the door hinges were originally finished. Mine have been sprayed over several times and when I repaint I want it to look right.

Were the hinges painted to the same color of the car? What about the bolts and pins. We’re they painted or zinc/cadmium plated. I ran my bolts through my ultrasonic cleaner and it appears they are black underneath the layers of paint.

Does anyone have an original picture of how it was finished from the factory?

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 2 2022, 10:55 PM

74 1.8 orig paint
think its same all years.

Posted by: sechszylinder Aug 3 2022, 01:43 AM

originally they are painted in the same color of the car.
never saw zinc plated or different finishes.

br

Benno

Posted by: StarBear Aug 3 2022, 05:53 AM

Here are mine. Original and unmolested to my best recollection. Note zinc chromate bolts with 5F and 8.8 markings. Hinge bolts in opposing directions. Same on passenger side. Mid-early 74 1.8. Original owner.
Bolt head scratches do show signs of use.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2022, 06:18 AM

I’ve only seen painted.

Posted by: StarBear Aug 3 2022, 06:39 AM

Probably mine have been changed out then. Will use touch up paint to get back to correct original.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2022, 06:47 AM

I believe so. 911’s are the same. Painted door hinges and hardware to hold on front fenders. When you see shiny hardware, you know it’s been changed.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 3 2022, 06:48 AM

sh#t

thats fascinating.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 has had his car since ground zero.

i only had mine since 89.
i don't think mine got fooled with before i got it.
i had the right hand door off to do rhd conversion but lhd door stayed on.
which is why i photographed lh door.
i've never touched it. and the bolts have never been moved.
and the paint is factory.

is this a case of the factory did it different ways?

???????

mysteries of the 914?

Posted by: StarBear Aug 3 2022, 06:54 AM

Oh, I may have changed them out many decades ago. Don’t recall doing so but will check my records. That was a long time ago, probably during the late 70s or early 80s, of which I recall little.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2022, 06:56 AM

This is from the 27k mile car on bat. I’m not saying I’m the final word on this, I’m not. I think painting the bolts was pretty standard for Porsche. I’ve seen a lot of 914’s so I believe what I’m saying is true. If it’s not, I stand corrected.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 3 2022, 07:08 AM

here is my karmann tag proper in focus.
she is no repaint.
or i am a better counterfeiter than characters on BAT.



rhs door. we drove out the hinge pins to get the door off 30 years ago.
needed to manouver various beer guts in to work in pedal cluster transfer.
didnt move the hinge plates or bolts on the door jamb



@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 may well be on to something.
his car is nov 73. mine is jan 74.

Posted by: StarBear Aug 3 2022, 07:15 AM

And remember - Hans seems to have worked on building my car; several abnormal things on it. A key might be the bolt markings. Are mine consistent with original or replacements?

Posted by: 9146GUY Aug 3 2022, 07:52 AM

My original 914-6 unmolested.

Posted by: brant Aug 3 2022, 08:02 AM

I’m pretty sure they were all originally painted

I’ve owned a few and looked over a lot more
Pretty sure they were originally painted

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 3 2022, 08:02 AM

wow

whats thet round plug above the K plate on a 6 all about.
not there on my sh%tbucket 1.8.

mysteries of the 914!

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2022, 08:05 AM

Looks like a Ziebart plug.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 3 2022, 08:18 AM

of course. forgive me. i live in a desert.

Posted by: Ishley Aug 3 2022, 08:39 AM

Thanks everyone

One thing that I can’t understand.. if the factory painted both hinge plates and the bolts then did they insert the unpainted hinge pin after. It seems they would have painted the doors off the car and then assembled it. If they did that I can’t believe the bolts would have been painted.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 3 2022, 08:50 AM

From what I have seen the area under the hinge is unpainted along with the pin so it stands to reason that, yeah, the mount plate was bolted to the car when they painted and then they put on the door with the pin. Weird though how they got the door aligned unless it was pretty standard across all the cars when they were new.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2022, 09:02 AM

Production facilities have a lot of tools and techniques that individuals and small shops can’t duplicate.

Posted by: fixer34 Aug 3 2022, 11:36 AM

I'll add to the mysteries... Factory -6, I've had it since 1977 and don't remember ever having the door off or touching up this area. Both pins are painted and it looks like the exposed shaft is also.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 3 2022, 01:00 PM

Always only seen fully painted on original cars ...

Posted by: mepstein Aug 3 2022, 02:36 PM

Do you have green overspray on your rubber seal. It’s hard to tell but if you do, that area was touched up at one point.
My friend worked at a Mercedes dealer touching up and doing repairs to brand new cars that came in for sale. There were always enough new cars to keep him busy.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 3 2022, 04:19 PM

looking closely at blue six on previous page it looks like blue paint around edges of top of pin. as if it was painted all over but perhaps has had pins driven out or paint has come off tops of pins.

maybe the 6s were all painted originally?

i had a look back over stuff i have collected for 1.8 research.
some of examples were original condition cars.
all have the unpainted pin but painted bolts.

if the pins on mine had been painted there would be a trace somewhere.
nothing there.

mystery of the 914 again?


or......early cars (4s and 6s) got painted pins?

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 3 2022, 04:37 PM

couple more 74s from research file.

Posted by: StarBear Aug 3 2022, 04:47 PM

I’m convinced by the data and pics provided. Mine must have been changed out somewhere along the line of me not paying attention to this stuff. Heads definitely worked on. Will clean, prime, and paint back to original. Adding it to “the list” for getting ready for the New Hope PA show on the 15th.

Posted by: SKL1 Aug 3 2022, 08:19 PM

Don't have a picture handy but I've had my early '71 since new and it has painted hinges and bolts.... and unfortunately some Ziebart plugs as well- I lived in Iowa and had to drive it in the winter for its first 4 years.
(but I did take the rockers off a couple times a winter to clean everything out!!)

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 4 2022, 09:24 AM

That's my hunch. My '70 /4 had the original signal orange painted over the pins.

Posted by: bbrock Aug 4 2022, 01:08 PM

I know this is a bit of apples and oranges being a different model, factory, and time, but this video clearly shows the doors of 356s were on the chassis when color was sprayed at 13:36. If the 914 assembly was similar, the bolts and pins would have been painted.

Then later in the video, the doors are removed to assemble them and reinstalled later. Hypothetically, it might be possible for a set of bolts to get damaged or misplaced during that process and replaced with a set of unpainted bolts. Thus, the ultra-rare original car with unpainted bolts could leave the factory.

Yes, it is wild speculation but


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj7KTZ2MOgo

Posted by: StarBear Aug 4 2022, 01:23 PM

Wonder what a comparison to other Karmann cars (Gaia, 411/412?) might reveal. At this point I’ll go with mine have been replaced somewhere along the line but I didn’t pay attention. Will clean/prime/paint them.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 4 2022, 02:14 PM

The car I've been working on is pretty early, 987th car built, November 69 chassis number. I'm working on the doors. I stripped the paint using Citrus Strip which doesn't take the original paint off very well, and the is no orange on the pins.

Posted by: mepstein Aug 4 2022, 02:56 PM

Some of the very early cars are quite different from even the later 70’s but then again, with the big speaker cutout in the door, who knows what else has been done to the doors on that car.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 4 2022, 03:09 PM

The doors appear to be original.

That door was painted 3 times after the factory — 1 time Tangerine, and then red and then a lighter red.

However, after stripping, the original orange paint was evident on the door bolts but not the pins which is consistent with rest of the cars shown in this thread (except the 6 that is highly suspect on account of it having overspray on the rubber seal).

One could say that any car could have had the doors taken off at the pins and the paint chipped off and then reinstalled. It's unlikely in my mind that plasma torch wielding car audio installers did anything to the door pins on this car

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 4 2022, 04:18 PM

re factories, i think all the 912s in the 60s were built at karmann to the same level as later 914/6s. finished and trimmed apart from suspension and drive train. 912s would be a good place to look.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 4 2022, 04:26 PM

the blue six on previous page has blue paint around the edges of the hinge pin.
and there is SKL1's car.

definitely later 914s are not painted there.
there are enough real original condition cars to say that for certain.
its interesting re the earlier cars.
if they were when is the cut off?
original poster's question is for a 72. so if they were painted his might be in the zone.

got taught a lesson about using logic when it came to 1.8s and EC-A or B engines.
so shouldn't speculate.
but it might be a legacy of porsche involvement in having a 6 model.
something they wanted done. might co-incide with the end of the 6.
but you know. it could just as easily be a revision of assembly line procedure at karmann and have nothing to do with either VW or Porsche.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 4 2022, 05:06 PM

i had a high speed cruise through BAT on 912s.

hard to find an original paint one. most have been restored, repainted etc.

but i did find this and i think it looks like untouched original paint.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 4 2022, 05:08 PM

another 74 from the 1.8 engine research.
44K mile 74 1.8 that sold a few years back on BAT and looked to be the real deal. matches mine.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 4 2022, 05:33 PM

My 4/72 build date 72 was never painted (after the factory). The pins are unpainted, the door bolts are painted.



The later cars (my 72) have pointed end door bolts but my 70 and 71 have flat end "regular" door hinge bolts. Possibly this could indicate the doors were taken off then put back on at the factory, Idk.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 5 2022, 05:24 PM

here is a 72 just up on BAT.
inners all looked to be factory original paint on it.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 5 2022, 11:52 PM

had a good look in 912 section of BAT.
managed to find a couple of cars that looked in the main unrestored with original paint on inners.

bit hard to find as most 912s have been restored, in some cases several times over.

looks reasonably certain that karmann were painting hinge pins in the 60s when doing these porsche bodies.




this one looks at first glance to be unpainted hinge pin, but close look you can see paint on edge of pin top.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 6 2022, 01:47 AM

Ghias are hard to compare.
here is one that looks original. different kind of hinge.
definitely paint the fixing bolts. hard to see what goes on with hinge pin.



411s and 412s were made at main VW plants - not a karmann product.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 12 2022, 11:52 PM

came across old ad for a 1970 914.

most of the paint looks original.
certainly all inners.

only one image is a clear shot of the hinges.
looks like the hinge pin could be painted in this early car.
hard to discern but think its white paint there not bare metal hinge pin.







@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179
might be good to shift this thread over to originality section of site?

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 13 2022, 12:50 AM

Opening the image in a new tab on the site will show it unscaled, but it's still indiscernible.


I would say it looks unpainted if I had to guess.

It's interesting that car's vin is 11,000 cars after mine, a fairly late 70, but the chassis number is 15 weeks before mine. It has the later driver seat tilt adjustment arm and the 2 section center tray.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 13 2022, 01:37 AM

even in 74 the karmann numbers wander around off kilter with the vin numbers.
however that does not sound quite right that there is such a discrepancy.
you must have a very very early 69 car @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899 . it must be within the first thousand cars built and it must have been started 15 weeks before august 69. which is interesting.
the one i found above is an august 70 car. right towards end of 70 MY production.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 13 2022, 09:29 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 My car, the vin and chassis number are pretty close, both in November of 69.
Chassis #4839528 I work out to being the 28th car built on Wednesday Nov 25, 1969
The vin is 4702900987
I don't have a door sticker — it was removed during a respray I assume. The production numbers listed here on 914world go by actual year, saying 1543 4 cylinder cars were produced in 69, so my vin agrees with that, if it was #987. I think the production numbers here are based on vins, not chassis numbers?

The white car, I can't make out the production date on the door sticker, but with
vin 4702912026 that would make it the 12,026 — 11,000 cars later — pretty far on into 1970 for a completion date if there were about 22,000 1970 model year 4 cylinder cars.

The white car's chassis number is 3319577 which I think is August 11th, 1969. So it sat as a chassis for 10 months or so?

It seems like the chassis would have got painted, like they couldn't have left it around in bare metal that whole time. The Karmann badge is applied after paint so that seems logical that they create and mark the chassis with the number. Then the vin gets assigned once the whole car is assembled. I guess chassis numbers are what would be relevant here, rather than vins as it's a chassis question.

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Aug 13 2022, 09:47 AM

16,000 mile original 914-6

Posted by: StarBear Aug 13 2022, 10:00 AM

Took the time/effort to clean, prime, and paint my nice shiny yellow zinc incorrect ones yesterday. Back to the past!

Posted by: BENBRO02 Aug 13 2022, 02:54 PM

I’m thinking the factory aligned the doors before they were painted and then took the pins out and painted the cars with the doors off so that it was easier to access the area. Then once the paint dried they used unpainted pins to reassemble and the doors were already aligned so they didn’t need to touch the bolts.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 13 2022, 03:30 PM

i doubt very much the K number on the white car goes to august 69 and that it sat for 10 months. i would say its a late production car and the K number is indicating august 70.
unfortunately no vin sticker was available in the dealer photos to show that.

the numbers on 1970 MY cars are not 22,000. thats the production for the calendar year 1970. production was only around 13,000 for the 4s for MY 70. since its vin is up in the 12,000 range its about a 1000 from the end of 70 model. they built about 100 cars a day on average through most of the production run. so its a car 2 weeks from the end of 70 MY. k number makes it an early aug 1970 car. which is right. they usually took several weeks off sometime in or around august as a summer holiday and shut the factory down or slowed production down between the model year breaks.

the chassis number checks out. there is nothing odd about it.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 13 2022, 03:32 PM

what MY is that 914/6 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=4947 @autoatlanta ?

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 13 2022, 04:02 PM

you know there is two views on preservation @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .
your "incorrect" ones were correct according to one school of thought.
that is they present as the history of the car through your ownership and maintenance work over 48 years.

i wouldn't worry too much.

i'm tempted to believe that karmann took the doors off the 914s for something as dumb as being able to fit in their spray booth. somewhere i have seen a photo of the karmann plant spray booth around that time in the late 60s and early 70s. its a kind of tent like thing at the end of the factory. the doors opened pretty wide on 914s.
i dunno. might try and find that photo again.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 13 2022, 10:17 PM

That makes sense about the 22,000 — I was adding 69 production to the total 70 production and forgot for a second that 4 months of 70 production are 71 model year cars.

But about when the white car was made does seem strange to me. Everything I've read says August 1st started the production year. The 33rd week of the year, whether 69 or 70 was the week starting Monday August 11th or 10th respectively. If the chassis was made August 10th, 1970 it would be a 1971 model year car, but it's clearly not. And that's just the chassis — the car would have been completed even later. So it is weird to me that either the car was made in 69 and the chassis sat for 10+ months or else they didn't start making 71 model year cars until halfway through August. And that's not even thinking about the break — I thought that happened July..

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 14 2022, 01:39 AM

your observation is correct. its extremely late in the piece to be august and still a 70 MY.

as far as i can work out from our 74 research they made 74s as late as july 74.
we came up with one sole example.

the earliest 74s were august 73. so the break might have been either end of july or start of august when it came to 74s and factory holidays shutdowns. i think germans were fairly traditional and summer holidays were set in stone? but it was still the era of the economic miracle and the idea of work, work, work (as per the japanese of that time) - don't know enough about their traditions and what is the summer break.

the earliest 75 1.8s i came across were august of 74.
i'd have to back and check the karmann plates to work out when in august.
i don't have a karmann plate number for the 74 that was built in july.

looks a little more nebulous when it comes to 70? maybe. like maybe they didn't have a holiday. or they shifted it a bit. or they finished off a few more 70s before they started on 71s.
or maybe cars built to order and playing catch up? if you ordered a 70 you would expect to get a 70 not a 71 model. not sure what waiting lists for cars were like back then.
probably not as bad as right now!!!!!!! but i doubt they would have left a body shell lying around for 11/12 (not 10) months. its a long long time. if they did it would have been only to do some serious rectification work and its difficult to imagine it taking that long to do it.

dunno. mysteries of the 914!

i've got some sense of when these cars finally rocked up in showrooms and finally got sold as whatever model years they were.
eg. mine was built in jan 74 but not sold until may 74.
and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 is an original owner. so he can tell you when he saw his in the showroom in east coast USA and bought it. his was made in november 73,
the whole thing has lags in time,

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 14 2022, 06:23 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899

i think i found the answer to the question about 70 models.
its there on this website in the members vin # listings.
they appear to be building 70 MY 914s as late as sept 1970.
unless members here were when they entered their info?
how that works i do not know!
germans!

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 14 2022, 02:39 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 very cool to see. I should have checked the database!

It would be nice if there was a form for picture verification of cars, like upload the chassis and vin number pics to have like verified entries. Some of what is there is questionable, like the last production 4 cylinder car of the 70 model year is 50,000 cars past the 2nd last 4702963897

Posted by: StarBear Aug 14 2022, 03:58 PM

Yep, my 74 produced in Nov 74 but lag until I got in freshly delivered in May 74. Dealer hadn’t even logged it in yet. I have the Porsche certificate indicating the facility invoice date. Late March I think.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 14 2022, 05:19 PM

yes

and the first 71 on the vin list here is 4712900022 (first batch of finished 71 prod as 22 car). K # 3539579 = wed 26 aug 1970.

the one above i posted is two from last of 70 at 13310. last car is supposed to be 312.
K # = thurs 27 aug 1970.

the body shell for the first 71 is started a day before the last 70.
both have 09/70 vin stickers according to what the members entered.

be interesting to study other years of production for this overlap.
don't think it happens for 74 to 75 but you never know.


EDIT - additional info.
took a look at 74 to 75 transition on vin data base here.
they appear to have taken a whole month off beginning mid july and ending mid august.

near to end 74 =4742921331 (40 cars from end).
seems it was a special creamsicle right near the end of production.
K # = 2829547 = tues 9 july 74.

near to start 75 = 4752900062
K # = 3349508 = thurs 15 Aug 74.

its thought that during this month they shifted production line of 914s across to beetle and replaced discontinued karmann ghia. this is about the time of the beginning of the end for the 914 as they scale down production. they also start building corrados at this moment. so the summer break in production of 914s may have been unusually long.

would have to go and look at transition from 73 to 74 to get a better idea of a typical summer break. just about all the data you need is here due to members building up the vin data base over the years. great resource.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 14 2022, 05:22 PM

pretty interesting stuff given mine is a jan car for may 74 sale as well.
makes you wonder if 1.8s were not ready/available to customers in the USA until almost the summer of 74.

i know they had a dedicated mechanic looking after the L jets at capital porsche audi in maryland. his name is written into my owners manual. tom martinot. he ended up a vintage porsche engine rebuilder in northern california and is retired now i think.
started his career at capital porsche audi as a young L jet trained technician. i think he was a young german who came to the USA, but not certain.
they probably had to train up the tech guys at each dealer as well to get ready to deal with the new fuel injection?

anyway back to the hinges.
i can't find any more examples of very early cars to know whether the hinge pins were painted on not. fairly esoteric detail. but generally speaking they were not painted on cars later. thats for certain. early cars. who knows. suspect any painted pins are due to resprays?

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 14 2022, 06:16 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21899

i had a look at 73 to 74.

last 73 is friday 20 july 73.
4732927642. (approx 20 cars from end).
k # 2959583

first 74 is tues 14 august 73
4742900034
k # 33292504 4th car started, 34th Vin.

conclusion they finish probably on friday 20 july and start up again on tuesday 14 august.
about a three week break.

so 70 to 71 transition speaks of either working through summer or perhaps picking up on overdue/late 70 orders at start of 71 production.

Posted by: nathanxnathan Aug 14 2022, 11:33 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Impressive research

So most years there was a break in production in July and startup of next year's production around mid August it seems. Sounds like there were some anomalies, especially in the 70–71 transition.

I think that makes some sense as things were a lot less standardized in many ways at that point. And why there may be some anomalies in door hinge paint during that time as well.

Thinking about door pins, it seems to me (my best analysis of the process) that doors would have been fit to the car before paint and adjusted for position. Then they were taken off at the pin for paint (door and car)— to better access the jambs (and possibly to install some of the internals like the stay mechanism at this point?). They would then be put back on with the pin. It really does seem the most logical explanation for why most pins are not painted and also seems like just a good way to have done it.

Posted by: wonkipop Aug 14 2022, 11:53 PM

exactly.

its the like rear trunk lid. that was on before painting as bolts tell the story there.
but the front trunk lid was off and painted separately, bolts tell the story there.
not sure, but think engine lid also looks to have been off during painting.

the front trunk lid being off is self explanatory. fuel tank install etc.

they might have left the doors off to ease interior installation.
dashboard etc.
i've never seen photos of 914 body shell at stage of raw delivery to the assembly hall so its hard to know.
as you say had to be test fitted on and then taken off again and reinstalled later.
no other way to do it and leave those painted hinge plates alone.