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Posted by: SirAndy Aug 6 2005, 06:01 PM

so it looks like there's going to be some minor machining required after all.

turns out, the 944 Turbo CVs are 4mm thicker than the 914 CVs which means the 914 axle shaft has to be machined down a bit for them to fit.

see pictures below ...

Andy


1 - 914 shaft on top, 944 shaft below


2 - closeup, for difference, see table below ...


3 - 4 mm needs to be removed from the 914 shaft to accomodate the 944 CV


4 - 914 CV on the left, 944 CV on the right


5 - 914 CV on the left, 944 CV on the right



Dimensions:

914 Shaft, dia. = 25mm, length = 514mm
944 Shaft, dia. = 26mm, length = 540mm

914 CV, dia. = 94mm, width = 31mm
944 CV, dia. = 100mm, width = 35mm

Posted by: Travis Neff Aug 6 2005, 06:11 PM

Is this per Clay's conversion post? Good info!

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 6 2005, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Aug 6 2005, 05:11 PM)

Is this per Clay's conversion post? Good info!

yes, this is based on clay's parts list ...

it would be great if you could use the 944 shaft, but it's over 1" longer so that won't work.
the 914 shaft is only 1mm thinner than the 944 turbo shaft, so i'm not worried about the strength of the stock shaft, plus, it comes with the right length built in!

Andy

Posted by: Travis Neff Aug 6 2005, 06:18 PM

Looks like it will help with a little extra toe in, lol

Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 6 2005, 08:28 PM

Andy,

I found out the same thing. I took the shafts to Wes and he machined a groove below the splines. Plus he says to leave out the washer below the cv joint.

Sorry, been so busy getting my car together I forgot to post this.

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 7 2005, 09:28 AM

missed clay's post. what has to be done to the output flange on the trans? is this proceedure in the classic thread section?

k

Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 7 2005, 09:50 AM

in this order-

915 coarse splined out put flanges + 944 CV + 914 Axle + 944 CV + 944 Stub Axle + Pre 74 911 Rear Hub for a true 5 lug setup

Posted by: dakotaewing Aug 7 2005, 10:08 AM

Any chance of the shafts stripping the interior of the 944 CV due to the 1mm difference?
Or am I reading this wrong?

Posted by: eric914 Aug 7 2005, 12:13 PM

Are the bolt hold patterns the same between the 914 CV and the 944 CV? If so, with a small amount of work on the 1\2 shaft we have a source for replacement CV joints.

Eric

Posted by: jonwatts Aug 7 2005, 12:30 PM

QUOTE (dakotaewing @ Aug 7 2005, 09:08 AM)

Any chance of the shafts stripping the interior of the 944 CV due to the 1mm difference? Or am I reading this wrong?

That's how I read it too, so I have the same question.


Forget the machine work Andy, all you need is a -4mm shim

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 7 2005, 12:40 PM

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Aug 7 2005, 11:30 AM)

Any chance of the shafts stripping the interior of the 944 CV due to the 1mm difference? Or am I reading this wrong?

huh? NOOOOOO ....

the shaft itself is 1mm bigger in dia. but the SPLINE IS THE SAME where the CVs are mounted ...

944 CV's slide right onto the 914 shaft, same spline and all. if you look at the closeup pics you can see how both shafts taper off after the spline part down to the actual thickness of the shaft.
so the 1mm difference does not matter ...

as for the bolt pattern, NO it's NOT the same, 944 uses 6 bolts (like the 911) and the 914 uses 4 bolts ...

that's why you need the 911 output flanges and the 944 stub axle, like aaron posted ...
Andy

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 7 2005, 12:40 PM

QUOTE (dakotaewing @ Aug 7 2005, 12:08 PM)

Any chance of the shafts stripping the interior of the 944 CV due to the 1mm difference? Or am I reading this wrong?

The splines appear to be the same. The diameter difference mentioned is the main portion of the shaft, not the splined area.

QUOTE

Are the bolt hold patterns the same between the 914 CV and the 944 CV

The bolt hole patterns are not the same. You need different output flanges and stub axles for these CVs to work on a 914 as noted in Aaron's post.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 7 2005, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Aug 7 2005, 08:28 AM)

is this proceedure in the classic thread section?

not yet as i'm obviously still working on it ...

i'm taking lots of (blurry) pictures along the way which i will put into a single thread once i'm done ...
Andy

Posted by: Racer Chris Aug 7 2005, 12:42 PM

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 7 2005, 02:40 PM)

huh? NOOOOOO ....

Jinx, you owe me a coke.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 7 2005, 12:45 PM

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ Aug 7 2005, 11:42 AM)

Jinx, you owe me a coke.

will do ...

Posted by: blabla914 Aug 7 2005, 02:59 PM

Glad to see somebody else is using Clay's info and working on this swap. I'm not as far along as Andy, but I did find out some stuff from my local parts guy. There were some questions on Clay's post about which 944 CV joints to use and that somewhere around '86-'87 944 CV's changed. Here's what I found out.

914-4 CV joint and axle have 33 splines (I counted mine to verify)

According to the parts book:
'86 AND EARLIER 944 NA and turbo also use 33 spline axles and cv's
The 33 spline 944 CV joint part number is 944 331 901 00
'87 AND LATER 944 turbo ONLY use a 25 spline axle and CV joint
The 25 spline late 944 turbo part number is 951 332 901 00

Make sure you get the 33 spline joints.

Kelly

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 7 2005, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (blabla914 @ Aug 7 2005, 01:59 PM)

Make sure you get the 33 spline joints.

i've counted 32 but i think i counted the grooves instead.
i did post that in the "other" thread and will add that to the final "how to" when i'm done.
there's only two different 944 CVs and the difference in splines is pretty easy to spot ...

Andy

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 7 2005, 07:23 PM

UPDATE on the machining of the 914 shaft ...


here's Mueller Meister in action:




turning them down:




and the end-result:





fits like a glove ...
Andy

Posted by: Gary Aug 7 2005, 07:32 PM

Cool thread! Appreciate your sharing the info.

Did the stubs stay the same throughout the 944 model years?

Posted by: Mueller Aug 7 2005, 07:44 PM

wow...I have more hair than I thought


i was expecting it to be harder to cut those axles, but it was not too bad....

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 7 2005, 07:46 PM

QUOTE (Gary @ Aug 7 2005, 06:32 PM)

Did the stubs stay the same throughout the 944 model years?

no. the two different 944 setups have different length shafts and stubs as well ...

i got my stuff off a 944 turbo, but i don't know the year. i can find that out tho as the donor car is just 5 blocks away from my house ...
Andy

Posted by: Dr Evil Aug 7 2005, 09:42 PM

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 7 2005, 06:46 PM)

the donor car is just 5 blocks away from my house ... Andy

Wow! you must be really silent to lift those particular parts off of a neighbors car without them catching you

Posted by: seanery Aug 7 2005, 11:10 PM

Andy,
I bet $5 it's from an 86 turbo, there were big changes underneath for 87.

Posted by: V6914 Aug 8 2005, 12:25 AM

Posted: Jun 14 2005, 04:31 AM



My running 914/6 conversion.


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QUOTE (John Jentz @ Jun 13 2005, 04:14 PM)
QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jun 13 2005, 05:36 PM)
what if i have 911 hubs that fit the 914 wheel bearing and i use 911 stubaxles and halfshafts and change the drive flanges on the transmission to 75-76 911,
whouldn't that work just fine ???

Only if the c/v's are 100mm and the 911 axles are supposed to be too short anyway. The earlier 108's require the earlier stubs and output flanges. With Cays config the 944 c/v's have the 914 (VW) spline and you could use the 914 axle shafts.

You don't have to change the axle shaft if you use the 944 axles. The 944 and 914 axle shafts are the exact same length.

If you are a cheap bastard, you can buy a 944 stub axle and one CV joint, and put it on the 914 /4 axle. Then use the 914 inner CV and drive flange.

If you want to do it right, use the 944 axle complete, and the 75-76 911 transmission drive flanges.

Oh, and using a 911 axle is asking for a failure. They will bolt up, but if you EVER hit full droop or full compression you WILL bind the CV joint and damage it.

Then you will be out the cost of the 911 axle parts, and your 914 will be back home on the jackstands.

Here, Clay says the 914 & 944 axle are the same length. But Andys pic, shows the 944 axle is longer, is it the right year?



For a 4 cylinder teener, this would be a cheap way to do a 5 lug conversion, once everything is worked out?

For a V8 teener, I wouldn't do the axel and CV upgrade, unless you have a 915 or better tranny.

WHY?

It's cheaper to replace CV's than it is to replace 901's, especially if you've spent money on a intermediate plate and or H gear.
If, you beef up the CV's and axels, to handle more HP
than the week link becomes the tranny.

This is my 500,000 cents, the price of a nice tranny.

Posted by: 914Timo Aug 8 2005, 12:31 AM

Hmmm..... It looks like 944 CVs are the same as 911 VCs and VW Type 2 CVs. I thought the are narrower and wouldn´t need any modifications. I have done this same with Type 2 CVs.

QUOTE

i was expecting it to be harder to cut those axles, but it was not too bad....

I was just going to ask that. We couldn´t use normal blade. We had to grind the groove wider.

Good work Andy and good pics !!

Posted by: Mueller Aug 8 2005, 08:40 AM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Aug 7 2005, 11:31 PM)

Hmmm..... It looks like 944 CVs are the same as 911 VCs and VW Type 2 CVs. I thought the are narrower and wouldn´t need any modifications. I have done this same with Type 2 CVs. QUOTE i was expecting it to be harder to cut those axles, but it was not too bad.... I was just going to ask that. We couldn´t use normal blade. We had to grind the groove wider. Good work Andy and good pics !!

Those CV's are still smaller than the early 911 CV's I showed Andy yesterday, the 911 axle for sure is shorter as well.

I used a carbide cutting tool, 325 rpm.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 8 2005, 08:44 AM

will 69 911 hubs work?

Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 8 2005, 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Aug 8 2005, 08:44 AM)

will 69 911 hubs work?

yes

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 8 2005, 10:17 AM

QUOTE (V6914 @ Aug 7 2005, 11:25 PM)

It's cheaper to replace CV's than it is to replace 901's, especially if you've spent money on a intermediate plate and or H gear. If, you beef up the CV's and axels, to handle more HP than the week link becomes the tranny.

with a V8 teener, you *WILL* break the 901 anyways, just a matter of time ...

for a /4 or /6 conversion, i think this is a great way to get true 5-lug in the rear, the bigger CVs are just a added benefit as 914 CVs are NLA but you can still buy the 944 CVs brand new ...

Andy

Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 8 2005, 01:38 PM

Added benefit. If the tranny ever does blow, you can replace it with a 915 that has the same size CV joint, and the fine splined aluminum case.

Posted by: 914MF Aug 8 2005, 02:27 PM

Do you have to machine both ends of the 914 axle shaft or just one end?

Posted by: Mueller Aug 8 2005, 02:36 PM

QUOTE (914MF @ Aug 8 2005, 01:27 PM)

Do you have to machine both ends of the 914 axle shaft or just one end?

both ends...the inner portion (splined center) of the CV joint is wider on the 944 part

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 8 2005, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (914MF @ Aug 8 2005, 01:27 PM)

Do you have to machine both ends of the 914 axle shaft or just one end?

both ends as i am putting 944 CVs on both ends ...
the machining is needed to accomodate the wider 944 CVs. while the splines are the same, the actual 944 CV is ~4mm wider ...

Andy

Posted by: 914MF Aug 8 2005, 03:32 PM

Thank you very much.

Posted by: 914Timo Aug 9 2005, 12:41 AM

QUOTE

Those CV's are still smaller than the early 911 CV's

Ok. I dont remember how much the splined center of 911/T2 CV was wider than 914 CV, but the difference is not big compared to 944 CVs (4 mm). So, this same concepts works with 911/T2 CVs too, right ??

QUOTE

with a V8 teener, you *WILL* break the 901 anyways, just a matter of time ...

If we could have and drive legally V8 teeners here, I am sure I would build one. Then I would consider very carefully using Renault UN1 transmission. They sell conversion bellhousings for SBCs, SBFs and Buick/Rover V8s. The tranny can handle 400 bhp. http://www.lamboreplica.co.uk/gearbox.html

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 9 2005, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Aug 8 2005, 11:41 PM)

So, this same concepts works with 911/T2 CVs too, right ??

i believe the spline is different for those and they won't fit the 914 axle ...

Andy

Posted by: 914Timo Aug 9 2005, 12:52 AM

According this http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm the width of splined center of 944 CVs and 911/Type2 CVs are the same 28 mm. Even the 930 CVs have the same width, but they have different number of splines and dont work with 914 drive shaft.

Posted by: 914Timo Aug 9 2005, 12:53 AM

QUOTE

i believe the spline is different for those and they won't fit the 914 axle ...

No, they have the same diameter and number of splines. Like I told before I have done this same conversion with 911/type2 CVs.

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 9 2005, 12:55 AM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Aug 8 2005, 11:41 PM)

Then I would consider very carefully using Renault UN1 transmission.

looks like the axle shafts are way too far in the front to get this to work in a 914 ...

Andy

Posted by: 914Timo Aug 9 2005, 07:48 AM

QUOTE

looks like the axle shafts are way too far in the front to get this to work in a 914 ...

No no, that means that there are lots of space for bellhousing.

Posted by: Mueller Aug 9 2005, 08:22 AM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Aug 8 2005, 11:41 PM)

QUOTE Those CV's are still smaller than the early 911 CV's Ok. I dont remember how much the splined center of 911/T2 CV was wider than 914 CV, but the difference is not big compared to 944 CVs (4 mm). So, this same concepts works with 911/T2 CVs too, right ?? QUOTE with a V8 teener, you *WILL* break the 901 anyways, just a matter of time ... If we could have and drive legally V8 teeners here, I am sure I would build one. Then I would consider very carefully using Renault UN1 transmission. They sell conversion bellhousings for SBCs, SBFs and Buick/Rover V8s. The tranny can handle 400 bhp. http://www.lamboreplica.co.uk/gearbox.html

on http://www.race-cars.com there was on of these Renault gear boxes for sale, 1500(US)....bad part was it's in Europe...

Posted by: James Adams Aug 9 2005, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Aug 9 2005, 01:53 AM)

QUOTE i believe the spline is different for those and they won't fit the 914 axle ... No, they have the same diameter and number of splines. Like I told before I have done this same conversion with 911/type2 CVs.

Early 911 ('69 axles are the ones I just counted) have 28 splines.

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 18 2005, 02:43 PM

What are the relative lengths of 914/911/944 axles?
I am trying to identify the ones I bought as a 911 CV & axle set with trailing arms that were mounted on a 914...

Posted by: Andyrew Aug 18 2005, 03:01 PM

THat renault trani is HUGE!!!

Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 18 2005, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 18 2005, 01:01 PM)

THat renault trani is HUGE!!!

Beef! Gotta house those bigger gears...

Probably similar size to a G50

Posted by: JOHNMAN Oct 12 2005, 12:31 AM

QUOTE

QUOTE i believe the spline is different for those and they won't fit the 914 axle ... No, they have the same diameter and number of splines. Like I told before I have done this same conversion with 911/type2 CVs.

The 914-6 axle shafts (or at least that is what they sold them as) are the proper length for 914's and do have 28 splines, and will (with similar machining) will accept 911 CV Joints. I just tried this myself and they will fit if the shoulder on the 914-6 axle shaft is turned down just as is done to a 914-4 axle to accept the 944 CV.

Posted by: 914Timo Oct 12 2005, 06:40 AM

QUOTE

THat renault trani is HUGE!!!

It is not that huge.

UN1 left and 915 right.

Posted by: 914Timo Oct 12 2005, 06:49 AM

... and the pic.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 12 2005, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Oct 12 2005, 12:31 AM)

QUOTE QUOTE i believe the spline is different for those and they won't fit the 914 axle ... No, they have the same diameter and number of splines. Like I told before I have done this same conversion with 911/type2 CVs. The 914-6 axle shafts (or at least that is what they sold them as) are the proper length for 914's and do have 28 splines, and will (with similar machining) will accept 911 CV Joints. I just tried this myself and they will fit if the shoulder on the 914-6 axle shaft is turned down just as is done to a 914-4 axle to accept the 944 CV.

But the problem with using 914/6 axle shafts is that they are fairly rare. With the 914/6 stub axles there are repros being made. The six axle shafts are not being made in repro.

The whole reason for this elaborate setup is to be able to use stock 4 cylinder shafts and relatively low cost 944 parts to get a CV setup that is stronger than stock and doesn't use a redrilled hub.

Posted by: JOHNMAN Oct 13 2005, 10:53 PM

I didn't know the 914-6 axle shafts were that rare. I know 914-4 axle shafts are more plentiful, but as far as I know you can still buy complete 914-6 axle shafts complete (with CV Joints).

So........

911 (pre 1985) fit the 914-6 axle shafts (same splines) axle shafts must be machined for wider CV joints
944 (pre 1986.5) fit the 914-4 axle shafts (same splines) axle shafts must be machined for wider CV joints

Both of these solutions utilize 100mm CV joints with (6) M8x1.25 bolts.

With each of these solutions, one could use 911 rear hubs with either 944 (pre 1986.5) or 911 (pre 1985) stub axles with (6) M8x1.25 bolts.

Posted by: bondo Oct 13 2005, 11:47 PM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Oct 12 2005, 05:40 AM)

QUOTE THat renault trani is HUGE!!! It is not that huge. UN1 left and 915 right.

I dunno about using French car parts.. last time I did that it was a huge mistake. (Pugeot clutch master cylinder in my Mustang.. the Mustang rejected the transplant)

Posted by: neo914-6 Oct 14 2005, 12:57 AM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Oct 12 2005, 04:40 AM)

QUOTE THat renault trani is HUGE!!! It is not that huge. UN1 left and 915 right.

TimO,

I may be asking you about how you will adapt CV's if I get one. Prices are reasonable but shipping to US is high. What clutch and flywheel will you use?

Posted by: 914Timo Oct 14 2005, 02:35 AM

QUOTE

I may be asking you about how you will adapt CV's if I get one. Prices are reasonable but shipping to US is high. What clutch and flywheel will you use?

They sell adapters in UK for normal CVs. They are not cheap and I will check if I can machine them cheaper here.

Clutch and flywheel ?? I don´t know. First I have to find a way to bolt it behind my engine. The bellhousing is problem number one first. I have SC clutch and flywheel and I have my conversion flywheel and old 911 clutch. I hope I can use one of them.

Sorry to hear that the shipping is so expencive......

Posted by: Verruckt Oct 14 2005, 05:31 AM

Hey guys, what is it that Pelican is using here...



http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/9144/POR_9144_SUSaxl_pg1.htm

Are they having the axles reproduced, hence the high cost? I can't tell what parts they are using based on the pic, but it doesn't look like the stock /4 axle to me. I could easily do this conversion cheaper than what the cost of those axles are.

Posted by: redshift Oct 14 2005, 05:56 AM

Bus?

My Renegade had bus axles.



M

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 14 2005, 05:56 AM

Those are either bus axles or 911 axles with adapters.

Posted by: neo914-6 Oct 17 2005, 01:16 AM

QUOTE (914Timo @ Oct 14 2005, 12:35 AM)

QUOTE I may be asking you about how you will adapt CV's if I get one. Prices are reasonable but shipping to US is high. What clutch and flywheel will you use? They sell adapters in UK for normal CVs. They are not cheap and I will check if I can machine them cheaper here. Clutch and flywheel ?? I don´t know. First I have to find a way to bolt it behind my engine. The bellhousing is problem number one first. I have SC clutch and flywheel and I have my conversion flywheel and old 911 clutch. I hope I can use one of them. Sorry to hear that the shipping is so expencive......

Well I let http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8005696394&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 slip away at $745 I just couldn't justify paying another $600 to have it shipped here. The good thing is it had the cable shifter included. I will regret it if it had the Derek Bell conversion but the owner was unsure...

Posted by: Randal Mar 21 2011, 03:43 PM

Had to resurrect SirAndy's classic thread on 944 turbo CV joints.

Just a heads up.

I'm not sure that it was mentioned anywhere, but here is one thing to check before you get back out there with your car.

Be sure to measure the distance between the new 944 (much wider) CV joint and the back of the out put shaft. The output shaft is the one that bolts to the transmission.

You want the 8mm (1.25) bolts to go all the way through the output flange and come out on the other side. Probably 8-10mm.

I wasn't thinking when I put mine back in and used the 45mm bolts that were previously holding on the 914 CV. Well they are short and you will end up stripping the flange when you torque them in, i.e., they are not engaging all the thread.

So make sure you have about 8-10mm showing out the back of the flange when the bolts are installed through the 944 CV's.

Also make sure you are using the 12 (whatever) grade bolts.

These flanges aren't cheap, so best to do it right the first time.

Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Mar 21 2011, 04:08 PM

Another trick is to buy nylocks and put them on the backs. I was told racers do this all the time. I did it to one side that was having issues with backing out and it worked perfectly

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 21 2011, 05:11 PM

Posted by: SirAndy Mar 21 2011, 07:14 PM

QUOTE(Randal @ Mar 21 2011, 02:43 PM)

Had to resurrect SirAndy's classic thread on 944 turbo CV joints.

Just a heads up.

I'm not sure that it was mentioned anywhere, but here is one thing to check before you get back out there with your car.

Be sure to measure the distance between the new 944 (much wider) CV joint and the back of the out put shaft. The output shaft is the one that bolts to the transmission.

You want the 8mm (1.25) bolts to go all the way through the output flange and come out on the other side. Probably 8-10mm.

I wasn't thinking when I put mine back in and used the 45mm bolts that were previously holding on the 914 CV. Well they are short and you will end up stripping the flange when you torque them in, i.e., they are not engaging all the thread.

So make sure you have about 8-10mm showing out the back of the flange when the bolts are installed through the 944 CV's.

Also make sure you are using the 12 (whatever) grade bolts.

These flanges aren't cheap, so best to do it right the first time.