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Posted by: bbrock Sep 24 2022, 09:02 AM

This might get some knickers in a quibbley but I'm trying to figure out had the 914 design team's vote to badge the car been honored, which badge would have come on my car. Porsche Classics shows the orange badge used through MY 1973 and the red badge beginning in MY 1974, but there is also this graphic showing the switched occurred sometime in '73.



The best I can tell, the switch might have happened with the introduction of the 911 G-series in MY 1974 but I've had a hard time finding when actual production began. I did find https://supercarnostalgia.com/blog/porsche-911-g-h-series-1974-1975 saying it started in August, 1973 which might be a good clue.

That may be all I need to know, but does anyone have anything to add?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 24 2022, 10:50 AM

Doesn’t matter since 914’s aren’t supposed to have a badge - NARP

Posted by: mgphoto Sep 24 2022, 11:12 AM

I use a sticker, to save weight.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 24 2022, 12:03 PM

Thanks both, but that wasn't the question.

Posted by: mgphoto Sep 24 2022, 12:30 PM

Orange bars till ‘74 than red speckles but there wasn’t any 914s delivered with a badge from the factory, dealer installed.
There is a picture of a 914/6 in a manual that has a badge and Ferry Porsche was given a 914/8 that had the badge.

ps: all of the 914/6GTs had a badge on the rear fascia (actually a 356 hubcap badge) but nothing on the front hood.

Posted by: Graydingo Sep 24 2022, 12:34 PM

I think you answered your own question. Orange badge for 73 and earlier and red for 74-76

Posted by: Lucky9146 Sep 24 2022, 12:42 PM

Agree Orange bars till '74 then red. Have a '74 911 very original and it has orange bar.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 24 2022, 01:37 PM

Yup, if my car had a crest on the hood, it would be the orange one. If I ever felt the urge, I would likely order the decal they use on the GT3 cars. That would apply right on top of my PPF and no harm done that way. I will not drill holes in my hood. Now, that said, I really do not have any issues with the Porsche crest on the hood, so long as it is installed at the right height. After all, I have a 3.2 in my factory 6.

Posted by: JamesM Sep 24 2022, 01:41 PM

It wasnt, so totally up to you what you want to do.

Posted by: Van B Sep 24 2022, 06:10 PM

I think the devil is in the details here. From what I’ve seen, if the car was built in ‘73, even if a ‘74 MY, it came with the orange. From CY 74 on, they were red.

Posted by: scallyk9 Sep 24 2022, 08:09 PM

When I bought my '74 Can-Am LE, built in February of 1974, it had an orange bar badge on the hood (in exactly the position specified by Porsche). And the original Connecticut dealer's invoice says "Porsche Emblem ...... No Charge" in the list of options so I assume that dealer had some older orange bar badges lingering in the Parts Department. Those orange bar badges go for good $$$ on eBay.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 24 2022, 10:49 PM

Yeah, this all makes sense to me. I think if the graphic is correct, they are referring to production dates rather than model year. I was curious when the switch was because I think the red badges show particularly nice against silver metallic, but my car has an April production date. I'm actually undecided if I'll badge the car. It's a lot to spend on a frivolous bauble, but I've always thought the hoods of light colored 914s have a lot of blank space and look like something is missing. IMO, the badge looks particularly nice against metallic colors. Whatever I decide, there will be no holes drilled. 3M trim tape works perfectly well to hold emblems on.

Posted by: rgalla9146 Sep 25 2022, 01:12 AM

Is there a factory spec for 'right height' ?

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 25 2022, 03:48 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

inspired by my sunday afternoon driving around north melbourne for an hour straight seeing how fast i could take a 90 degree gridiron city corner (in a city deserted due to a 4 day weekend thanks to death of QE2 ) i thought to myself i need a real badge on this go kart i own.

when i parked it up this arvo i sat down on a stool and smoked a peter styvesent while i enjoyed the smell off a really hot VW engine cooling off in the garage.
its been a long wet winter down here in north antarctica but today i got the car nice and warm.

dimension suggestions gratefully accepted for my piech designed VW to get it ready for spring time.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 25 2022, 03:54 AM

OT - sort of - i can't believe how quick you ( @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 ) bought those speed limiting dist rotors off @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3457 .

not fair, i was asleep in the future.

i got to stop being ahead of my time and get into living in the past!

Posted by: Van B Sep 25 2022, 06:31 AM

Sorry wonki, but you did put the idea in my head lol.

Regarding position of the crest, on all Porsches that the marketing dept didn't F up, the crest is mounted centerline and 80mm from the lip of the hood to the bottom point on the crest.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 25 2022, 06:52 AM

Without measuring the distance, I believe they look best when you find the center of the headlight bucket height and place the top of the crest at that level. I have seen a lot of crest placed at the top line of the headlight bucket and to my eyes, that is high. But that is just my recollection.

Posted by: mb911 Sep 25 2022, 07:23 AM

This is where mine is. PO drilled the hood so I just went with it.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 25 2022, 08:41 AM

That's the spot I would install one.

Posted by: scottsilvertt Sep 25 2022, 10:45 AM

Enjoying the comments,

You could buy a 911, in 1974, still with orange bars.

And then this question, why, in the first place, did 914s leave the factory with no hood badge?

Did factory not want them?
Did designers not want them?
Did they try to make the car less expensive?
Who came along and said “no badge”?
Any other reason?

That seems to be a big decision to not put any mark on the front of a car.
They spent $ (marks) to put the Porsche letters across the grill, (mine in 74 were plastic)

I wonder if prototypes had a badge?

Posted by: Ansbacher Sep 25 2022, 11:30 AM

I'm sure the Porsche bean counters made certain that EVERY single orange bar emblem was used up before the reds were distributed to the line. Therefore it is practically impossible to figure out which were the last vehicles to be orange badged.

Ansbacher

Posted by: bbrock Sep 25 2022, 06:42 PM

We actually have a little insight into this from the 50 Years Porsche 914 book. This has rekindled my interest in the badge. From the book:



I'm not sure who made up the "program committee" but assume the design team was well represented. So it seems those most intimately involved with the 914 determined it was worthy of the company crest, but the marketing lunkheads who I hold mostly responsible for the poor treatment the 914 has gotten for decades were already selling the car as VW-Porsche.

I've tried to image how that committee meeting discussion went and would like to think it was something like this:

"The matter of approving model nine-one-four to receive the Porsche crest is now open for discussion. Any comments?" The sound of a shoe pounding on a desk reverberates through the room. "Nein, nein, nein!! Nein crest. The car has a Volkswagen engine. It is not a Porsche. Not a real one anyway." This must have been the origin of NARP and caused quite a stir in a group sitting in the back corner of the room. A spokesman for the group responded. "Shut the fuchs up Franz. You don't know what your are talking about. We developed that engine. It is a great engine. It is worthy of Porsche." Now the room goes silent as people shift uncomfortably in their seats and look nervously around. They remember what happened the last time the committee voted against the engine design team. For a month, sandwiches and desserts from staff lunch sacks stored in the break room refrigerator went missing and were replaced with moldy cheese, shriveled sausage, and in one case, a handful of raisins so dry they may have actually been rat turds. Nobody wanted to relive that nightmare so the vote was unanimous. Yes, even Franz had to admit resistance was not `worth facing the wrath of a vengeful Type IV team.

Of course none of it mattered because the marketing team who stored their lunches in a different refrigerator, in a different break room, in a different town were not intimidated by the Type IV mobsters as they had come to be known, so continued with their bumbling plan to secure the badgeless 914's legacy as one of ridicule and controversy.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 26 2022, 04:06 AM

i hate to be a contrarian.

but it was never actually a porsche (in terms of corporate entity ownership).

it was fully paid for by VW. porsche were the design consultants and paid a handsome fee for their troubles.
like all their work for VW from about 1945 to around about 1971 when r. leidling pulled the plug.............savagely.

it even had a VW type 4 model designation. what does that tell you?

porsche were piggy backing on the side of what was effectively a type 4 "karmann ghia" of sorts, except it was designed by porsche, not karmann.
(probably to karmann's disgust - i point you to the karmann cheetah?!!).

who knows what silly idea nordhoff had in mind before he died.
it was obviously not very well resolved.
a kind of family dinner table agreement as i understand reports of historians.
nordhoff was married to a member of the porsche family, a cousin or something?

so.......i don't think any of them had really thought it through.
as to what it would be.

hence the amalgam name in europe.
though they sold the 4 s through VW dealers and the 6 from porsche dealers.
which tells you something.
and neither of them got their resoective badge - on its own.
cause don't forget VW put a badge on the bonnets of their cars.

i give you the karmann ghia.





i honestly think this was nordoff's version. it had a VW badge where the porsche crest is in your speculations?
how it would have went looking exactly the same for all intents and purposes alongside porsches version with their badge,........well, its anyones guess. but i'd say badly.
for porsche. which is how it turned out anyway in reality when it came to the 6.

they obviously woke up to that, the marketing guys are not actually stupid.

they got it right in the USA by just calling it a cheap porsche rather than an expensive VW. thats the way i would have gone if i had been in that meeting too.

and with VW not being exactly friendly at that moment, and owning the project lock stock and barrel having paid for the entire R+D along with financing a very large percentage of the weissach test centre who can blame them for probably kyboshing the porsche crest.

i reckon that is who said no to the badge. the VW management executive sitting on the top floor. not the marketing guys.

--------

all of which does not matter one bit when it comes to the actual industrial object.
its a product of piech's driven genius. the same drive that produced the 917 and pissed everyone else around him off - severely.

thats what geniuses do?

it does not need a badge. its piech's first road car project.
as far as he was concerned he was VW and he was PORSCHE - in huge capital letters.
he barely respected his uncle and he had nothing but contempt for his cousin.
he believed he had the genes from the grandfather.
egotist - maybe? but he was right?

its taken 50 years for the crazy arguments about whats a porsche and whats a VW to be resolved. they are one and the same. at one end an everyman car every bit as good as the model T and at the other end sheer sports car perfection with every thing in between. including anachronistic arse draggers and pumped up SUVs.

the 914 is both a VW and a porsche. and why not i ask to anyone who says otherwise.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Sep 26 2022, 07:16 AM

White over Yellow Karmen Ghia

Posted by: bbrock Sep 26 2022, 09:30 AM

Mr. Lewandoski gives us more details aided by access to company archives in his book. He shows us just how chaotic the project was after Nordhoff's death and Lotz took over. Lotz had nothing to do with any verbal agreement so went strictly on the text of the contract in hand. This gave VW full ownership of the project AND the right to market the car as Porsche regardless of what engine it contained. In fact, they explored using their own engine for both the 4 and 6 cylinder versions and building the car in Wolfsburg. Market analysis nixed that plan. The Marketing team pops up a lot in Lewandoski's accounting. The identity of the model remained in limbo throughout development with Porsche and VW having different ideas. Finally, Lewandowski has the following to say:



So there was a notion that there would be separate VW and Porsche models depending on engine fitted which might have been what Nordhoff and Porsche had in mind. That evolved into VW-Porsche regardless of engine fitted. Had the decisions of the program committee in this single meeting been honored, our four cylinder cars would have come out of the factory with the number 913 rather than 914 on the rear AND a Porsche crest on the hood. Not VW, but Porsche.

What we know from the archives is that it WAS decided to badge the cars with the Porsche crest. There is no indication a VW crest was envisioned, and in fact, it is clear from other evidence outlined in the book that Lotz wanted to cash in on the Porsche name to market the cars. What we don't know is what happened between the committee meeting and the introduction of the 914 to the world at the Frankfurt Auto Show a mere 2 months later.

Here is a photo of the VW-Porsche stand at the 914's world debut at the 1969 Frankfurt Auto show. Wait a minute... what is that I see on the hood of that 914...?


https://www.motorsportimages.com/photos/?race_type_id=202&event_id=265530

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 26 2022, 10:04 AM

Badge - no badge. You can rationalize it anyway you choose but the reality is they shipped without the badge. Ferrari guys rationalize ways to put Ferrari badges on Dino’s too

Posted by: bbrock Sep 26 2022, 10:44 AM

They also didn't ship with radios, crested shift knobs, side stripes, or rear reflectors but all were available as accessories from Porsche just like the badge. I'm just curious why we don't get our panties in a wad over those? I'm just trying to figure out the rules.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 26 2022, 11:02 AM

I do get my panties in a wad over crested shirt knobs, Porsche logo side stripes, and rear reflectors.

Everyone gets one deviation, I’ll take the radio as my deviation.

Posted by: SKL1 Sep 26 2022, 11:07 AM

Long article in the latest issue of 000 explaining the history of the badge.... leave it to Pete!

Posted by: bbrock Sep 26 2022, 12:44 PM

Uh, oh... I'm already over my quota. I have radio AND shift knob. I find the smaller vinyl knob more comfortable. Guess since I'm already in violation, I might as well go ahead and convert to EV.

Posted by: Van B Sep 26 2022, 04:04 PM

You guys are all great, but I gotta say, the NARP crowd gives the air cooled 911 crowd a good run for their money when it comes to shaming people for what THEY do to THEIR car lol
The real lesson here is that the family fight that resulted in the badge being omitted continues today like a family of tragic codependency.

As for me, I will end the cycle in my house and give the car the badge it should have by right and pedigree. Karmann built other Porsches too, ya know…

Posted by: Front yard mechanic Sep 26 2022, 04:13 PM

I have the crest,the crested shift knob radio,rear reflector ,side stripes and the factory ac

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 26 2022, 06:14 PM

You take us far too seriously

Posted by: bbrock Sep 26 2022, 06:31 PM

EXACTLY! We are carrying on a tradition that started well before the first 914 was even sold.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18984 you are brave going public with your many offenses. We'll dispatch a security detail to your home to make sure you are safe.

Posted by: Van B Sep 26 2022, 06:53 PM

Eh, it’s an overarching statement regarding “purists” in general… like emo kids, they all think they’re special but to everyone else, they all look the same!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 26 2022, 07:10 PM

Dealer butchered AC - fixed it for you

Signed
The NARP Police
(As sung by Cheap Trick)

Posted by: Front yard mechanic Sep 26 2022, 07:59 PM

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 27 2022, 08:57 AM

the eurotrash established the rules in the old world.
you bought a 4 you purchased it in VW showroom and got it serviced in VW garage.
you bought a 6 and you purchased it from porsche showroom and got porsche to service it.

went down like a lead balloon in europe.

in the usa you were buying a porsche from porsche/audi and you got porsche audi to service it in their workshops.

mind you half the dealers who had a VW dealership also had a porsche audi dealership on the next block...........!

thems the rules. its not about a badge. they were already on their way to a conglomerate back then. its just that they had a product in a 914 they could not quite work out how to sell?

in the end they were most successful in the USA where they attempted to confuse the least.

i'm just going to get a piech badge made for mine and stick it on the bonnet.
then there is no confusion.
and ....... i don't care, the badge does not interest me, only the thing and the person who willed it into existence.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 27 2022, 09:16 AM

its fantastic when you throw up a photo like that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845 .

not only is there a bonnet badge on a lowly orange 4 (and it is i can tell by the wheels and hubcaps) but there is also a 917 sitting on a stand with a VW-Porsche sign in front and behind.

1969. f piech was at the height of his egotistical first moment as a late 20 year old.

it blew up on him. those kinds of photos are great. they speak volumes.

........about a future that took another 40 years to finally arrive.

i suggest the reason that a 914 did not end up with a badge is because its all about piech and in the end its the mark or evidence that he kind of disappeared or was erased for a time. its not the reason that the badge is not on the bonnet but all the arguments there would have been around how to badge it would have orbited his presence or shortly to be non presence.

thats why my car is never going to have a porsche badge on it.
piech had to endure not having the name porsche.
so i absolutely honour him by maintaining no badge.
my car is not a porsche. its a piech?

Posted by: bbrock Sep 27 2022, 05:43 PM

@wonkipop So you are dismissing the lunch-thieving Type IV bullies hypothesis so easily?



Or... do we honor Piech by giving his car the badge and by extension, him the name he always wanted? Oh boy, this conundrum just never ends.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 28 2022, 02:27 AM

you are on to it mate.

i don't know about lunch thieves. but at least VW sat back and let them call it one name in the USA. some sense prevailed there and the idea of the car was a little less confusing to the average consumer. (i am not an average consumer so it would have made no difference to me, but you know.......the idea of a slow porsche was more credible than the idea of a fast VW so wolfsburg type 4 lunch bullies probably saw sense or were made to see sense? - but only so far? = lets not forget as soon as nordhoff was dead VW went cool on porsche and were tentatively booking the divorce court and then in 71 leidling just put the loaded gun on the table and said. go on pick it up).

piech was not a porsche. but he was. that was always his problem so to speak.
having his fathers name. i think he was the original KDF accountant business brain.

piech's mother was a force of nature. ferry's sister.

so to honour piech i am going with the idea it cannot have a badge.
it kind of reflects piech's own quandry concerning his name and status.
which really took a savage bashing from about late 1971 to around 1980-----
when he started to come back with a vengeance from the obscure siberia he had been sent to at audi.

i maintain that the 914 was subject to the same disrespect as piech was for the 70s and its part of what explains its curious status.

i truly think that is why during the late 70s and 80s all history regarding the car was stifled. like who designed it? was it a gugelot toaster? etc and so forth. it kind of went to the gulag with piech for a while.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 28 2022, 07:47 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Don't fret. There is a badge for your car.

Posted by: Van B Sep 28 2022, 11:28 AM

Oooohhh man! No excuses now Wonki!!

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 28 2022, 11:56 AM

Y'all are


If you want a Porsche badge on your 914, put one on it.

If you don't want a badge, then don't add it.

It is your car, and it is YOUR choice. Nobody here will ridicule you one way or another.

To quote @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=6 .... "I can't be an elitist, I drive a 914."

Do what makes you happy.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 28 2022, 12:33 PM

I reserve the right to ridicule Brent, well. . . Just because.

Posted by: 914sgofast2 Sep 28 2022, 12:42 PM

Would it be acceptable to add a VW badge to the frunk of my 914?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 28 2022, 12:53 PM

I might add a prancing Moose sticker / bage. That ought to really throw em’ off the trail

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 28 2022, 03:08 PM

The only reason anyone would ridicule you for that is if you didn't post pictures of it.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 28 2022, 03:40 PM

I once put a Porsche badge on a VW bus so turnabout should be fair. I think it needs to be the big bus badge though. Be bold!

Posted by: KELTY360 Sep 28 2022, 06:25 PM

Posted by: bbrock Sep 28 2022, 07:33 PM

MOM! They're picking on me again.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 28 2022, 08:27 PM

I’m strangely drawn to and approving of that proposal

Posted by: Van B Sep 28 2022, 09:07 PM

No joke, I saw a bus that someone put a G-series flat six in. They had a Porsche crest on the rear deck lid and since it was running when I saw it, I was immediately pleased lol!

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 28 2022, 11:56 PM

as mr perrine says, its not what others find acceptable, its what you like that matters.

EDIT

i knew i had seen it somewhere in the dim distant past.
found it.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 29 2022, 12:01 AM

where do i get it?

(when i have imbibed of a few L-Jet ales i have considered getting some custom side drop out stripes made in typography to match originals. but saying P I E C H. )

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 29 2022, 04:10 AM

oh yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApBZYzLmoI

Posted by: ClayPerrine Sep 29 2022, 04:55 AM

Mom's not here, but I can help..... pick on you.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 08:10 AM

You get it from Ferdinand's son, Anton (Tony), of course. Quite interesting really. His company has developed an EV super car to be released in 2024. Kind of funny since his dad apparently didn't like EVs and is a big reason why VW was slow to the game. Most interesting is that he claims they can put an 80% (250 miles of range) into the car in under 5 minutes. That may be the last hurdle for EVs to truly go mainstream.

EDIT: I almost forgot. In some articles I read, this car is going to be built by "a well-known" car manufacturer. Please, please, please let it be Karmann. That would make it perfect.

There are several videos online. Here is one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qe7m_YoiNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qe7m_YoiNM

and an article:

https://www.hotcars.com/everything-we-know-about-the-electric-piech-gt/

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 08:11 AM

Well this is starting to look like junior high school all over again!

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 12:16 PM

Holy bejeebus! I remember many times white knuckling my bus at 50 mph with a 30 mile cross wind hoping the thing didn't tip over. Would like to see the suspension on that beast.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 29 2022, 12:25 PM

NARP baby! Flaunt it!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 29 2022, 12:41 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

“ However, the Swiss brand claims it can provide a full charge in less than five minutes, although precise details remain unclear at this stage.”


The way you know he is lying is … if his start up could achieve this feat - he wouldn’t be starting a car company and begging for seed money. He would be an overnight Trillionaire selling said battery and charging technology.

The whole thing is sort of sad to watch given the family legacy. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. Than man is at the fourth phase of the cycle.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 01:05 PM

I share your skepticism but having read as many articles and watched as many vids as I can find on this car, they have apparently confirmed 80% charge in a little over 8 minutes without thermal issues. The five minutes is a bit more speculative and still under development. That said, 250 miles on an 8 minute charge in a $1.5M car using the most expensive bleeding edge tech is one thing. Doing it in a competitively priced car for a mass market without compromising battery life etc. is quite another. But that's how these things progress. Advances usually demonstrate the impossible is technically possible, but ridiculously expense or impractical because of unacceptable tradeoffs. Further development reduces cost and undesirable trade offs. I don't think Piech or anyone else thinks what they have done will revolutionize EVs over night, but more an agent for pushing things forward.

The real question though is whether this is a real Piech, or just another NARP.

Posted by: RARE 6 Sep 29 2022, 02:04 PM

Embedded in my aging brain is the sight in the early 1980s of the late Bill Randle flat towing his 356 convertible down I-25, somewhere north of the speed limit, with his VW camper powered by a 3.0 SC engine with a 5 spd. Headed from Denver to Santa Fe to Fiesta del Porsche. Being an ex-racer, I'm certain the Fuchs indicated he'd paid a little attention to suspension. Must have, since he was smiling instead of gritting his teeth.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 29 2022, 02:08 PM

If you’re going to run a successful scam the 1st rule is don’t promise something so far out there that it isn’t believable.

Bernie Madoff did so well because he was only promising returns of 5-10% which is very plausible.

Magic technology that eliminates internal resistance in the batteries, wire, and charging port interconnects is not really plausible from a Physics standpoint. Secret Flux capacitor going on to deliver on that sort of charging rate. not really a plausible tale.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 03:10 PM

The Porsche Taycan and Kia EV6 are both in production and can already deliver 250 miles of range in 23 minutes. With a lighter car, newer battery tech, and more lax attitude on how badly you are willing to thrash the batteries to get a fast charge in them, I could see them getting close to 8 minutes without requiring magic flux capacitors (although those are pretty awesome from what I hear).

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 29 2022, 04:36 PM

thanks for those links.
very interesting.

true that piech senior did not like EVs -- but he was a fan of hybrids.
the XL-1 was one of those piech driven vw "vanity" projects.
i don't think there is even one of those in australia.
maybe a rich collector has one stashed? lhd only like a 914.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 29 2022, 04:43 PM

there was a VW type 3 that used to compete in touring car championships down here in the 70s. it was mid engined. they just went straight to a formula 5000 chev V8 and skipped the porsche power option. pretty interesting car. i seem to recall there were a few "street legal" kombis around back then too that had V8s jammed in the back. i'm betting none of them had any suspension work to compensate.

https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/racing-garage/australias-fastest-vw-fastback-thommos-ground-breaking-v8-sports-sedan/

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 04:58 PM

Great story, and relevant to the subject at hand: "He even went to the trouble of making up his own ‘Volkswagen 5000’ badge that was proudly displayed on the engine cover!"

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 29 2022, 05:43 PM

i saw that car when i was a 13 year old when dad took me to calder park.
(dad was a holden man and wanted to see bob jane flog his monaro - b j was the anti hero of australian motor sport - just rammed people off the track when they got in his way).
i wanted to see the "pastie" - sounded incredible is what i remember.
translation - aussie slang for VW fastbacks were "pastie". ie cornish pastie - a kind of potato carrot and meat pie. beetles were called "staff cars" or alternatively "hitler's revenge". WW2 had not yet faded from living memory. toyotas were called tojos as well. trying to remember all the other slang. think skodas were "gulag taxis". aussies still had a sense of humour back then.

interesting co-incidence is the VW 5000 rolled out of his shepparton shop exactly the same time my 914 rolled out the door at osnabruk - right down to the end of the month - jan 74.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 29 2022, 07:17 PM

To get that charging rate the Taycan requires an 800 volt charger. Good luck finding L3 800 volt capable fast chargers at your corner store. And that is at 23 minute charge time. So take a deep breath and think about what kind of voltage it would take to get to 5 minute charging. It’s not just a matter of risk taking on whether or not you wish to degrade the battery.

In addition to the internal resistance and heat effects eventually one also runs into chemistry stability and limitations on how fast Lithium ion mass can be moved from one place to another within the battery cell.

As always - these bogus marketing claims are what continue to drive me crazy with EVs and no one does the homework. The media just parrots it back as if it is a fact. Understandable given the average journalist has no understanding of Physics, Chemistry, or any of the physical sciences and only gets paid to regurgitate whatever they are told the science is.

Next miracle in battery tech is always just around the corner in a year or so. Please be patient . . . I’m getting old waiting.

Here is info on Taycan charging which peaks at 2.8C charge rate. To get to 8 minute charging you’ll have to get closer to 7.5C rate.
https://insideevs.com/news/512344/porsche-taycan-fast-charging-analysis/

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 29 2022, 08:05 PM

Hilarious - here’s their “proof”. Fast charging a single cell.



Now try putting them all together into a real battery pack and doing the same test at a 10C rate.

RC cars / drones and a few other things charge / discharge at 10C rate so it’s not even a novelty. However those RC car batteries are notorious for thermal events, bulging pouches, etc.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 29 2022, 08:53 PM

We've already drifted way off topic so what the heck. First, the charger required is irrelevant because Piech has made no claims about what kind of charger is needed for their claimed fast charge. Even if it needs a special 1,000v charger, their claim is still accurate if they can get the battery pack to 80% charge in 8 minutes. And yes, I checked and the Kia also uses an 800v DC charger to get a fast charge, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. What is important to the consumer is that they get the convenience of refueling comparable to ICE at a competitive cost.

Second, the Piech GT is not a Taycan. The Taycan has a 93.4 kwh battery pack, the P GT has 75 kwh. I would think a 20% smaller battery pack would take less time to charge to 80% even if the charge rates were identical. Third, the P GT weighs 744-1,114 ponds LESS than a Taycan. You of all people know that is a huge range booster. As you always say, it's a system and when we look at the whole system, their claim is less of a "miracle breakthrough" and more of an incremental advancement, but a significant one if they can prove up on their claims. I just don't see why you think this is so far fetched. EV tech is improving rapidly. There was an 8-fold increase in energy density of batteries in the the 12 years prior to 2020 and a 152% increase in average range in a decade as of 2021. None of this required miracle breakthroughs. Just rapid but steady advancement. Only time will tell if Piech can prove up on their claims.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 29 2022, 11:34 PM

Because I’ve been following EVs and the hype since the EV1 was going to change the world in the 1996 - 1999 era.

My 1st 914 was actually wrecked when two guys from GM were test driving it when I had it for sale. They showed up at my house in an EV1. I guilted them into letting me drive the EV1 after the accident even though I worked for a GM competitor. It was surreal driving with no engine noise. True story!

So, range has gone from about 55 miles to 250-500. Charging times have decreased substantially but still are not competitive with a gasoline fuel fill-up.

It’s all sort of impressive until I realize that I was 40 lbs lighter, had more hair, had skin without wrinkles, and was far more attractive back in 1999. So after 20+ years have gone by, I’m now an old man. EVs are still sort of interesting (especially 0-60 acceleration) but have consistently failed to live up to the hype surrounding them no matter which OEM is pitching them. The next big improvement has always been just around the corner . . . For twenty odd years.

That’s why

Posted by: bbrock Sep 30 2022, 08:11 AM

This is an odd perspective to me considering how much development ICE has been through to get where it is today. It took 50 years for ICE vehicles to replace horses as the most common means of transportation. That took a combination of developing the technology and infrastructure to support it, just like we see with EV. Cars didn't replace trains for long distance travel until a sufficient interstate highway system was developed. Even in my lifetime, traveling in a car for more than a few hundred miles was much more of an adventure than today and was often interrupted by delays waiting to replace a water pump, radiator hose, repair an ignition or change the ubiquitous flat tire. Even when nothing broke, they ran like crap when the elevation changed. Even through the 80s, economically priced cars started to become iffy at ~60K miles and downright unreliable after 100K. With FI, electronic ignition, and other advances, we now routinely travel across the continent in cars with 200K+ miles on the clock with confidence.

Sure, EV has been around as long as ICE, but serious development really didn't start until the very late 1990s. In that time, EV have already gone from hobby novelty to comparable to cars of the 80s in terms of reliability and convenience. Just like ICE before them, EVs have found their value in cities first. Even in the uncivilized EV wasteland around here, Teslas are ubiquitous and mixed with the ICE just like old photos of US cities in the 1920s show Tin Lizzies and horses. True, EVs have not yet matched ICE for range and fueling speed for long distance travel, but they get closer every year. Where you see plodding progress and hype, I see shockingly fast progress and delivering on the promise. Sure, any retailer is going to hype their product, but when I look at what EV has already accomplished and how quickly it has done it, I'm impressed. They are rapidly closing the gap on ICE for most use cases.

In the end though, if the only legacy of the Piech venture is that it leaves @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 with a hood badge he can be proud of, they will have made a significant contribution to automobile history.

Posted by: mgphoto Sep 30 2022, 08:34 AM

So, did the European 914’s all have the Wolfsburg crest on the batwing 914/6 included?
Did 914/6 cars with steelies have the Porsche badge on the hubcap?
Did 914/6 cars with Fuchs have the Porsche badge on the center caps?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 30 2022, 08:58 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845 I really appreciate that counterpoint. To a large degree it does depend on your point of view. I’ve been too close to it for too long!

Here’s to hoping Wonki can steal a Piech badge someday though it clearly won’t be in the 2 1/2 year development cycle Piech alluded to

Posted by: Superhawk996 Sep 30 2022, 09:04 AM

I can answer the 1st part - partially.

I was living in Italy in 1986/1987 and wanted a 914. They were much harder to find over there. However, I looked at two 914/4s in person and both did have a Wolfsburg crest instead of Porsche crest on the batwing. Small sample size but I suspect it applies to all of Europe as I’ve read in the history books. Can’t answer for the 914/6 because I never saw one when I was in Italy despite 911s being pretty common.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10225

Posted by: mgphoto Sep 30 2022, 10:12 AM

I had read in a book of Porsche history that 50% of all 914 production was delivered to the US market, and 50% of that number was delivered to Southern California, biggest reason for “rust free” rollers, I believe.
Now all US cars got the Porsche batwing I’m sure a few other markets got the Porsche item but that still leaves a very large number of VW batwings.
The question would be, did all cars badged as VW/Porsche get the Wolfsburg crest?
50% of production of the 914/6 model would be US model Porsche batwing that leaves about 1700 cars with Wolfsburg batwings and the Porsche badge on steelies or Fuchs?
I believe the 914 was birthed as a VW for 4 cylinder models but as a Porsche for 6 cylinder versions. But because of marketing pressure things got convoluted to say the least.
Porsche needed to sell cars, VW was selling cars like crazy all over the world.
I’m sure the mucky mucks at Porsche hated the idea of this little bastard car dulling the image of there bullwork vehicle, all hail the 911, hence the formation of the the alphabet soup that became the sales arm.
Look the 914 body and the 911 bodies came out of the same factory, 911’s and 914/6’s were pushed across the street to be assembled in the Porsche Werks and /4’s stayed at the Karmann factory for final assembly.
For good reason these little sh*t cars started to sell, not so much the /6’s cause they were just there to get buyers in the door to see the spectacular 911 that could be yours for a few hundred bucks more, heck the 914/6 was just a way to get rid of all the leftover 2.0 litter motors that would never be sold. Look to the 912, Porsche had to get rid of all the leftover 356 motors, (they did the same with the leftover 2.0 type 4, 912E hahahaha).
We are all slaves to wild corporate machinations, would I buy a new Porsche? No, would I buy a new VW? No, I’ll keep my Toyota Corolla and my 914, whatever name comes with it.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 30 2022, 12:59 PM

Good stuff. What fascinates me is that the development seems to have been little affected by all the corporate jockeying to market the car. They just put their heads down to work on executing Piech's vision. He had proven that lightweight, under-powered, mid-engine race cars could be giant slayers and now he wanted to apply those concepts to a practical production roadster. The team did exactly that. I doubt they concerned themselves with how it would be marketed or what it would be called except to vote to approve the car for the Porsche badge.

Posted by: mgphoto Sep 30 2022, 02:44 PM

I’m not sure, the Porsche name and thus badge wasn’t to be associated with this car.
There are a few stories out there. Ferry Porsche was given a 914/8 (a really bitchin car, sun roof!) legend goes he drove it 60k km, another says he hated it. While I understand Butzi was barn storming Stuttgart with the red /8 with the full race 908 motor.

Remember the old adage win on Sunday, sell on Monday?
The entire 914/6GT race program was shut down after the 1971 Monte Carlo Rallye, I think based on a quote from the driver Bjorn Waldegard “if I was driving a 911 I would have won!” Well in ‘72 he did race a 911 but he lost to the same 2 Alpines and I think again in ‘73. The Alpines keep winning till the Stratos became the dominant force, which was toppled by the Quattro.

Posted by: wonkipop Sep 30 2022, 03:03 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

[/quote]


"Good stuff. What fascinates me is that the development seems to have been little affected by all the corporate jockeying to market the car. "
[/quote]

i would agree.

porsche during that era (the 60s) were largely left alone to do their design and development work for VW. that was the Nordhoff era. the 914 was a minor project when considered next to the bigger contracts at the time.

corporate jockeying is probably the wrong word however to describe what ensued.
we forget the context?

i'm thinking the bigger project with piech that was under way with designing. the revamping of the entire VW range.

i think if that scenario had gone ahead with VW there would have been model sharing. that much is clear from the little that is properly known of the piech project. the 914 is just the first and most visible of those piech road car projects and really the only one that survived to production. a kind of a sketch of what was to come in the next generation replacements for the air cooled.

its likely the whole platform sharing, niche branding thing would have been worked out.

and it would probably have been plausible.

but all you end up getting is a kind of legacy issue with the 914 where the niche branding thing is first considered, and thought about, but never resolved, because its starting to unravel before its had a chance to happen. so its just a kind of aftermath. a fabulous one.

Posted by: scottsilvertt Sep 30 2022, 05:32 PM

Is Hans Lapine a part of this group?
His dad was Tony Lapine, and I believe was head of styling at Porsche for 20 yrs.
Hans vintage races a 914, and I would believe has some intimate knowledge on why the 914 came without a hood badge.

Posted by: bbrock Sep 30 2022, 06:24 PM

Oh wow! That would be some great info!

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 1 2022, 03:23 AM

Lapine joined the studio in early 1969.
he was right there when these final details were debated.
the pre production prototypes had already been built and running.
and they were gearing up for production.

the son is a fan of the 914.
T L was not involved in the design and production of 914 but he was around as it was coming out the door.

plus he designed the 924. which i think is great as a piece of design.
the prototype for VW was a bit awkward but it sure got resolved in final form.
i still think its a wonderful piece of design and i remember the first time i saw one.
the glass hatch blew my tiny teenage mind.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 1 2022, 06:29 AM

What really blows my mind about the whole badge debate is the 914 was designed as a partnership between VW and Porsche, but they used a LOT of Porsche parts.

The original 924 was designed by Porsche as an Audi sports car originally. And all of the car was a VW parts bin special. Super beetle front and rear suspension. Audi Fox motor. Audi transmission. All of the little interior bits. My first "Porsche" was a 924. And other than the hood badge, I don't remember a single part on it that had a Porsche part number (but I could be wrong).


There is more Porsche DNA in a 914 then there ever was in a 924. But the 914 is called a NARP and doesn't get a hood badge. The 924 is called a Porsche and gets a hood badge.

Posted by: bbrock Oct 1 2022, 10:01 AM

There might be a better term but I was speaking specifically about jockeying over branding. As far as Lotz was concerned, there was no verbal agreement. As far as he was concerned, VW had paid Porsche to develop a car and they owned outright, including the right to use the Porsche name as they saw fit. Porsche really wanted to have a version fitted with a Porsche engine and sold as Porsche. I haven't seen any indication that Porsche ever considered the 914 a lesser model other than doing what was needed to protect the 911 as flagship. I think there was genuine excitement over what had been created, especially among the racing arm. The damnatio memoriae in Porsche and VW seems to have followed the confusion over the car's DNA due to branding and the ridicule that generated.

Lotz didn't like the idea of selling the same body under two different brands. He even looked into developing a 6 cylinder version of the 411 engine but it didn't pencil out. Instead, Lotz sold bodies back to Porsche to fit the 911 engine. Ferry Porsche himself wrote that Lotz told him the he saw three options: 1. VW would take over Porsche. 2. The companies would separate completely. 3. Create some kind of joint venture. Obviously the third option one and the joint VW-Porsche-Audi US import and marketing entity was born. Lotz also thought a sports car would sell better if the Porsche name were attached. I suspect the VW-Porsche branding was his idea since it was a compromise between keeping VW ownership of the model and boosting sales with the Porsche name. I'm guessing it wasn't too hard to sell him on just calling it Porsche in North America since it would boost sales that were always going to be rather paltry from a VW perspective despite being huge from Porsche's.




I think this comparison is a very interesting study on the power of a badge. I remember when the 924 came out, there were eyebrows raised over a front engine water pumper Porsche, but it was mostly chalked up to Porsche's innovation and keeping up with the times. As a high school kid with a new drivers license and dream of owning a 914 when I could save the money, I would swing through the Porsche dealer lot after hours to stare at the 924s and dream. They cost more than we paid for our first house so completely beyond reality, but still brought joy. My first long in the tooth 914 would come to me a year or two later. Only then would I learn of the curious identity crisis that the 914 suffered. In fact, I think the night I rolled my sunflower yellow and primer colored 914 up to the college dorm to show off was the first time I heard, "you know that's not a real Porsche..." More curious that the 924 with far less Porsche DNA somehow escaped the same fate. It had to be that badge.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Oct 1 2022, 11:08 AM

Yup - 100%

This provided my 1st insight into the cognitive dissonance in the mind of the typical Porsche owner. I got a good dose of it early in 914 ownership at that 1989 PCA national event. I’m grateful for that exposure. It was fundamental in my embracing the NARP identity just to piss them off!

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 1 2022, 04:30 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845 .

re lotz. your summary is pretty much how i reckon it went.

a "slow" porsche was not a hard sell.
given the 912 and its popularity - in the USA.

in the rest of the world the 912 was something of an oddity.
they were pretty rare down here.
basically they didn't sell. a few farmer's wives and for the odd rich woman in toorak who didn't want a mercedes benz to do the shopping in or drive to the tennis?
i remember i could have picked up a pretty nice second hand one up in the early 80s for the same cost as i paid for my second hand VW squareback. very stupidly i did not buy it. i bought the squareback. i couldn't work out where to put a surfboard on the 912 where it wouldn't get stolen.

porsches were not relatively affordable as they were in the USA at that time.
the 911 was just about the most expensive car you could buy in aus right through the 60s, 70s and 80s. a new 912 was not far behind in the aussie $ stakes. second hand they had a depreciation curve like the cliffs at grand canyon.

strange as it may seem - for both lotz and ferry porsche the split moniker VW-Porsche or even a fast purely badged VW that porsche got a license fee percentage on despite it being called a VW would have made reasonable sense at that time. the gamble would have been that a fast VW was going to have greater sales numbers than a slow porsche?
--for the ROW of the world that is.

thats my perspective as a non american.

it sort of worked in some european markets (excluding the UK), they sold a lot more VW-Porsches than porsche ever sold 912s. and they certainly sold a very large amount more VW-Porsches than the type 3 karmann ghia. just not the numbers VW hoped for.
the USA was a completely different story. success.

i think if they called it a VW pure and simple in europe they may have feared the word would get out and affect sales in the USA?

VW wanted some attachment - and legitimately too in my view. their engines were going in the car. its easy to forget that VW engines were significant in some ways that porsche 4 cylinders were not.
one thing VW had done, on their own, independently of porsche was to back the bosch EFI tech. way in front of everyone else. so those engines were all important. sure you could have stuck a 912 engine in the 914. easily in europe. but not in the USA? not with pollution regs. the only way you were going to do that was with the bosch developed tech. which cost money.

the engine had a part to play in europe is how i think it really went.
912s were not big sales numbers there.
you had to take a slightly different approach in europe/ROW.
you had to be straight up about the engine.
it sort of worked.
i think if they didn't have to worry about what effect it might have had on USA sales they probably would have gone with just calling the 4 a VW in ROW. and added "designed by porsche" in the sales brochure.

a VW - "designed by porsche" was of course exactly what the 924 was originally going to be. no more ambiguity. 100% financed by VW as a design contract to Porsche just as the 914 was.

it seems to me on the face of it, that the only version which did not work at the time was the one they tried hardest to insist was a porsche. the 6. it just didn't gell with the market. i doubt a badge would have helped its case either. lotz's suggestion of a VW 6 was not dumb. again the VW sports car (designed by porsche). it would have worked i think.

i don't know about america, but down here it was that extended script across the rear of the 911s that was considered the real badge. something you saw as the car overtook you out on a country highway or sat at the lights in front of you and left you for dead when they went green. the letters across the engine lid would have been all important down here. but of course we didn't even get 914s and the few that did get here didn't have the letters. if the car had been sold down here officially there no doubt would have been endless discussion over whether it should or shouldn't have had them installed by porsche.

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 1 2022, 04:55 PM

i'm not really sure about DNA. its a kind of subjective term. but i know what you mean.

what i can say is that porsche did not have muscle as either a manufacturing entity for other auto companies or in the end as a design and engineering consultancy. to put it bluntly (and as it is sometimes said to me in my field by the big boys) they were hired hands and contractors. all they had was their reputation. (and in porsche's case a bit of influence with h nordhoff through family connections - along with a clever little contractural arrangement over I P signed with VW and german government some time after WW2).

they basically had to take what was handed out to them. and in some respects be grateful for it.

they got lucky with the 924 (and probably desperate enough for survival) to go into the hire-purchase agreement with VW and go ahead with the car. in any case they got to 100% own the design and could do as they pleased. you got to wonder if VW even thought they would succeed after they terminated the project fortunately they did. or we wouldn't all be here wasting words. by now 911s would be some kind of half forgotten brand that a few diehards tried to keep going as interesting museum pieces. like Panhard enthusiasts.

i think the fact that the 924 is just about 100% assembled from the VW parts bin and is such a good car is remarkable. it shows you just how good porsche were as engineering and design consultants. to me that is DNA. genetic instruction. not whether the car has parts stamped with certain numbers and branding. but thats just my ill informed and reckless opinion. it certainly deserved its badge and at least porsche did not have to negotiate with anyone else about it once they paid the bill to the original financier.

but to me its no different to the 914. both are parts bins cars. the 914/4 is a 911 parts bin car with an engine thrown in from VW.

the USA market proved to be the most sensible when it came to the car.
major success. buyers liked the car.

luckily it had the extended text letters across the rear. under the glass hatch.
it even had them in australia. even if it was a sticker and not a reflector.

Posted by: bbrock Oct 1 2022, 07:11 PM

Interesting! I did not know this. I assumed the Type IV was developed with carburetors in mind and the Bosch FI was another of Piech's goodies he wanted to throw into the car.

Is it correct that the first 912 engine was from the 356?



It was the price of the six that killed it. Porsche didn't count on having to buy the bodies from VW, but with nothing of the handshake agreement on paper, they had no choice. That drove the price of the car too close to the 911 entry fee so the 914/6 just wasn't the bargain Porsche had hoped. I'm not so sure about how successful a VW sports car (designed by Porsche) would have been in the US though. Maybe.

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 1 2022, 08:41 PM

Looking at it from a different angle, the 914 was the best aircooled sports car VW ever made.

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 3 2022, 05:10 AM

yes 912 engine is 356 engine.
and contrary to some stories of dubious veracity, not left over engines.
they just kept making the engines and putting them into a car specifically targeted at the USA market. a price point version of the 911. a sweeter car in some ways.


no the bosch EFI had nothing to do with Piech. zero.
bosch offered it to VW and Mercedes Benz. Initially Benz said no and hesitated.
VW did not. that is the D-Jet. it went straight into the VW fastback and beat MB by one year.

due to expense it was limited mainly to the USA market. where they kind of had to have it after 1970. we did get the EFI fastbacks down here in aus, but small numbers.
it was sold as the top of the range VW car.

the type 4 was conceived with EFI in mind. it could run either way.
but the development of D Jet is simultaneous with the type 4 engine.

and also lets not forget the first L jet cars are type 4 VWs.
thats when they got the cost down from the moon age daydream expense of D jet.
L jet was native german brilliance. and cost effective.

VW did that on their own outside porsche involvement.
the reasons were obvious. they could not afford to lose power from a very modest engine in power terms due to pollution controls. and they didn't. they only lost power due to lowering compression to cope with lower octane unleaded fuel. but not due to emission control devices.

Porsche were wedded to mechanical injection at first, same as Mercedes Benz and hesitated when it came to EFI.

regarding cost of bodies killing porsche 914/6. maybe.
i think the truth of that story is that karmann (owned by VW) charged them for the bodies just as they had commercially for 356 trimmed bodies and 912 trimmed bodies.
maybe porsche expected a sweetheart deal with nordoff but lotz kept the terms of supply strictly commercial. history tends to write this as if VW screwed porsche on the deal.
i actually don't think that is what happened. porsche had some other informal deal with nordhoff which may have been "at cost" rather than with overhead? unrealistiic?
also despite what people say, the 914/6 was cheap enough to definitely have worked.
......if consumers wanted them. but they didn't.
why. because porsche buyers are (were back then) actually conservative?
the porsche buyers wanted the 911. the classic or classical car.

in the end they got it right when they did away with the 6 and put in the 2.0 4 which is what they should have done right from the start? ....and just let VW build it.
that idea actually did work.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Oct 3 2022, 05:49 AM

Actually, Bosch offered D-Jet to anyone who would buy it. It was available on the VW Type IV, the Mercedes V-8 engines, Volvo 4 cylinders, Jaguar XJ12 and XJ-S, and oddly enough Chevrolet put it on the Cosworth Vega.

Back when I was still spinning wrenches for a living, I had a rather diverse customer base that included all the cars listed above. Word of mouth spread saying I could fix D-Jet, so I got lots of repeat business.

Posted by: Van B Oct 3 2022, 10:06 AM

Gentlemen, I have been on vacation in Houston this weekend, and I made my obligatory stop at the Porsche Premier dealership. It seems that this debate is now ended by Porsche itself!

The 914 is a Porsche and recognized as a crested car!


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 3 2022, 10:44 AM

I think it was 1974 Porsche bought the entire 914 project under the Porsche company, but they rarely mention the 914.
This little abomination pulled Porsche from the brink of bankruptcy.
To VW 125,000 units wasn’t a great success but to Porsche that was a win.

Posted by: bbrock Oct 3 2022, 11:17 AM

That's awesome

Posted by: KSCarrera Oct 3 2022, 11:22 AM

And then there's Volkswagen's EA128 prototype... Check the steering wheel and engine.

[attachmentid=853717]

Posted by: mgphoto Oct 3 2022, 01:49 PM

Cool a factory 416!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Oct 3 2022, 02:25 PM

@“Van B”
I call on their propaganda. I can’t fully read the right side of that sign but I’m pretty sure it’s their old tag line 70% of Porsches still on the road - yada yada

Except Porsche Classic barely supports the 914. The reason the cars are still on the road largely owes to the aftermarket and DIY community. CV joints for /4 - NLA. 17mm master cylinder - NLA. Critical sheet metal - NLA. D-jet parts - NLA. Critical body seals - NLA.

Plus, they can’t even be bothered to post a photo of a proper 914 without a hood badge even though that may please @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20845

Posted by: Van B Oct 3 2022, 04:35 PM

Shit man, I can’t even get fuel injectors for my ‘99 996! I have to buy the 996.2 injectors and then “adjust” them for a proper fit!

Posted by: Superhawk996 Oct 3 2022, 08:29 PM

That’s sort of funny that even 996 parts are going NLA. Yet, they love to act like they are really doing something to support the older models.

Posted by: bbrock Oct 3 2022, 10:00 PM

Oh yes. It pleases me. It pleases me very much.


I think @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 already kind of answered my question which is where do people restoring 911s and 356s buy most of their sheet metal?

Excepting some glaring items such as the CVs and MCs you pointed out, I've actually been generally surprised by the number of parts still available from Porsche. Genuine parts availability for my 50 year old 914 is way better than for my 30 year old Nissan. The items listed in Porsche Classics which is just a sampling of what is available seems to be slowly growing too.

Most important is that they recognize that our cars deserve a proper badge.

Posted by: KELTY360 Oct 3 2022, 10:33 PM

[/quote]
Most important is that they recognize that our cars deserve a proper badge.
[/quote]

I didn’t even realize they made a NARP badge. Where can I get one?

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 4 2022, 02:15 AM

interesting. must have been fun and good business for you.
not that many mechanics could get their heads around EFI.
D Jet or otherwise back then.
esp here in aus.

they offered it to mercedes and VW first.
bosch converted two cars and took them to both manufacturers.
threw them the keys without telling them what they had done to the cars.
one was a merc and was driven to mercedes.
one was a VW driven to wolfsburg..
mid 60s. circa 1965. when they did that stunt.
VW did not hesitate after the engine lid was opened and they were shown what had been done.
the fastback is the first D jet by a long way (in automotive terms). calendar year is 1967.
merc came next. calendar year 1968.

lancias ran d-jet too. maybe not sold in the USA?
might have been the first italian manufacturer to take it up?
SAAB was an early adopter as well.
quite a few SAAB 99 EMS sold down here, a bit of a cult car that was a minor hit.
but when you look at the dates, for instance SAAB its not until 1972.
VW get the jump by about half a decade.

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 4 2022, 02:36 AM

exactly.

one of those lucrative porsche engineering commissions.
nordhoff went around and around in circles in a merry dance with ferry porsche on many follies. i don't know who did the styling on that one. probably porsche? trying to out think mercedes. bruno sacco would have laughed his head off.


check beetle replacement project. (not a golf proto - something else entirely).
the something else that ended piech's first career big time.
(1971 must have been hell for him - roller coaster - win lemans with the 917, be a hero then get smashed down to earth by r leidling and given a lesson in hubris and humility - he learned from it but!).

no speedo in central position. tacho. who does this again?
supposed to be a VW? apparently its a proto of the sports version? GTI before the GTI?
hot motor. mid engined anyone. kids get a hot backside sitting over it but.
not sure who has this one in their collection. porsche? ....and its still kept in a dim dark corner of the vault? it exists. VW has one as well but not this one. their version has the speedo as the main instrument. just like a beetle. he was fully evil..... mr piech.

its still wearing michelin XAS on it. bet they are original. serious. no shite tyres on that baby.

Posted by: wonkipop Oct 4 2022, 02:46 AM

two faced bastards is what i reckon.
disowned it and now want to cash in.

i'm determined. i'm getting a giant VW decal made the size of the bonnet and i am sticking it on.

then i am going to drive down to richmond where the dealership is and park it square out the front for the whole day with a picture of piech left on the dashboard.

(the drop out porsche side script and engine lid letters might be a problem).