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Posted by: TJB/914 Jan 5 2023, 02:10 PM

Looking for help if anyone makes these OEM Windshield Sticker's?
Are they different for every model year?
Many years ago while restoring my 914 I used a solvent to clean up the windshield glass & destroyed the letters. I would like one for my OEM original windshield
This is off as recent 1976 in a local shop for repairs in this photo.
Tom Michigan


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: SteveL Jan 5 2023, 03:19 PM

Pretty sure That is a stamp, not a sticker

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 5 2023, 03:24 PM

^^^agree. Not a sticker.

Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 5 2023, 03:28 PM

I thought OEM was sigla.and it is etched in the glass not a sticker.

Posted by: TJB/914 Jan 5 2023, 03:32 PM

Steve,
It's not factory stamped, it's a thin clear see through logo sticker with white letters about 4"x4".
I pealed mine off using a razor blade to peal it off (Glued to the glass).
Tom

Posted by: TJB/914 Jan 5 2023, 03:36 PM

Rick,
Yes Sigla glass stamped by the glass factory is correct, but this is a peal off sticker. I'll do more checking and report back.
Tom

Posted by: TJB/914 Jan 5 2023, 03:38 PM

Rick,
Yes Sigla glass stamped by the glass factory is correct, but this is a peal off sticker. I'll do more checking and report back.
Tom

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 5 2023, 04:06 PM

I was a tooling engineer at PPG in the late 80s. Those marking are required by law on any safety glass, laminated or tempered, used in vehicles. FMVSS 205 is the standard for US vehicles. Europe has slightly different requirements.

The trademark gives the manufacturer (DOT registration number), the factory (if they had more than one), the date of manufacture (month and year) and the composition of the glass (M number - referencing glass, thickness, color, laminated or tempered). The AS marking gives its intended vision area AS1, AS2, AS3 etc. They must be permanent markings so they cannot be removed by cleaning.

The trademarks are applied by sandblasting if the glass is already bent, fired-on ceramic stamping, or fired-on ceramic silk screening (especially if the glass has a black paint band or a heated circuit).

Every manufactures codes vary including the date code. For PPG (now PGW) the year was in the text and the month was the addition of the numbers 1 2 4 8. By blocking out the appropriate number on the silk screen you could come up with the correct month. Block out the 1 and the 4 leaving 2 and 8, would give 10 for October. Sometimes they would cheat to save making a new silk screen in January (since the year code would need to be changed) and make the numbers add up to 13. Other manufacturers use letter codes. It isn't intended to be a precise date down to the day.

Sometimes auto companies add stuff (bar code data) for robots to identify the glass prior to installation. They also can add logos or certifications for various countries.

Some useless trivia...

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 5 2023, 04:41 PM

Interesting. Can you decipher the date or date code from the first photo above?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 06:11 PM

interesting.

original screen in mine. never been replaced.
does not have the audi rings like @TJB/914
just VW insignia. no mention of sigla either.
its a jan 74 build.

all the other letters codes are same as TJB/914




side glass is the same
just VW insignia




same with rear glass. different codes. but only VW insig.

i have a spare screen in its box still that i picked up in 90 from porsche in USA.
shipped it back with the car. would be genuine but manufactured at later date?
never taken a close look at markings apart from confirming it was completely clear.
(as was required by law in aus back then).
i'd have to pull it out and unbox it to see what was on that.


ps - sekurit is a brand name for automotive glass divsion of saint-gobain.
pretty much the best glass makers in the world.
though other glass companies would probably argue.
its interesting that the windscreen does not have sekurit branding.
a lot of the original parts in 914s did not have the manufacturer branding, but were stamped VW even if made by an external supplier. exhaust mufflers originally for instance just were given a VW stamp. often the replacement parts carry the manufacturer branding. its a fuzzy area.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 06:53 PM

ok - did some googling as i am always curious.

kinonglas is the manufacturer of the windscreens.
and kristall F/F HI might be the trademark name of the clear laminated glass.
(if the info i found is right - from an early 911 forum).

they were bought out by saint gobain, so a division of s g as per sekurit.
though no certain they were bought out by early 70s.
had the technical set up to do laminated windscreens. speciality item.
sekurit another factory doing flat/flatish glass. probably just toughened.

certainly sigla did windscreens originally for mercedes and porsche (for early 911s) but possibly by some stage in the early 70s saint gobain was supplying all the glass for 914s at karmann?

so it could all be S G glass in my 74 built in jan 74.
getting curious enough to carefully pull out my spare screen.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 07:10 PM

i don't reckon they had date codes back then mr. b.

given that first example is a 76 and i have a 74 and all the numbers/codes are the same.

probably later bureaucratic requirement.
maybe for the purposes of recalls in case a particular batch of screens is found to be defective and they have to go looking for them.

Posted by: Mikey914 Jan 5 2023, 07:11 PM

It's like a tempering bug. It's a frit stamp that's baked on the glass. Not a sticker.

Posted by: TJB/914 Jan 5 2023, 07:18 PM

Interesting 914 factory information.
I am cleaning up original remarks after investigating my restoration file. When I started my restoration 20+ years ago the windshield was factory OEM with the photo logo
I then replaced it with new glass from the Porsche dealer OEM factory replacement. It did not have the Sigla/Sekurit stamping, just factory Porsche Sigla parts replacement listed on the order forms.
Back 20+ years ago I spent over $15K+ on every 914 part that was available from the Porsche dealer in Ann Arbor, MI. 914 stuff was available whatever was needed.
Now we know the real story as we become 356ers.
When I had my 914 at 2013 PCA Parade the judges told me it's not real OEM unless it's there
Tom

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 07:33 PM

down here i've stood around and listened to those judges types drinking beers on other occasions outside porsche or 356 club events. most of them are bullshit artists.
why i never go near the whole concourse parade scene.

f#ckers pissed me off back in the 90s when i drove to some 356 do one sunday just to have a look at the old cars. the prick at the gate told me to make sure i parked my car nowhere the event. i was in the 914. idiots if you ask me. mostly peddling bs they make up along the way. once upon a time you had no way to argue with the clowns.
it was all an act and their knowledge was just accumulated here-say.

these days with the internet and a website like this you can really get to the bottom of things. this website is the best thing around and the folks here have access to so much info you can really get to the bottom of things if that is your interest or determination.

eg. we would never have cracked the 1.8 L Jet info even 10 years ago.
but now you can accumulate enough data from folks you can work out what really went down instead of somebody just pontificating and bluffing.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 5 2023, 08:30 PM

The ziggy-zaggy line is the Sigla logo.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 09:04 PM

just to throw things.
what about this then?
from the L jet files.

a may/74 1.8 with the sigla logo. looks like its top of the screen.
was from a very original but very down car.
has oscilloscope wiggle logo just like kinoglas.
wiggle something else?




a may/74 1.8 in very good/excellent original condition. low miles it was claimed.
identical to my jan/74. numbers code etc. (except its D-290, not D-226)




3 possibilities.
one or the other are replacement screens. sigla maybe?
or/
sigla handled tinted screens?
or multiple original suppliers.

---

here is a 73 1.7 for a bonus.
in good original condition.
similar to 74 but has some different numbers going down.





worse than the ECA/B mysteries.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 09:21 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .

i have a feeling (hunch) but could be wrong that the wiggle line and the number means a value for light transmission.

i'll try googling it and see what i can find out.

i believe that sigla and st. gobain (kinoglas) were not related companies.
but i could be wrong about that too.
you never know the way companies were gradually being transformed by takeovers in the post war era.


EDIT
i did once have to get right into this about 30 years ago.
but i have forgotten the whole thing.
aus windscreen regs when i put the car on the road here were nuts strict.
a lot more different standards of screens were tolerated in the USA.
and all the markings on USA screens are USA market.
there was some trip up about my screen lacking a British Standards mark.
but i got it through in the end because some "expert" at the registration board hauled out his book of international standards and confirmed it kosher.
there was a lot of talk and discussion about light transmission value.
aus screens were ZERO tint by regulation.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 5 2023, 11:48 PM

here is how you tell who made the windscreen.
its the DOT number.
Dept. of Transport assigned manufacturer's DOT numbers back in the late 60s and kept a list.

https://www.carwindshields.info/dot_db


DOT 31 has disappeared off the list.
presumably because kinonglas was aquired by st. gobain sometime in the 70s after those 914 windscreens were manufactured.

interestingly a lot of sigla windscreens have the DOT 25 number.
this is assigned to flachglas gmbh.
flachglas is the name of the german company who made sigla.
it would appear it might still exist as a DOT number. its on the list.

https://www.flachglas.de/en/company/history/

no relation to kinonglas, sekurit or st. gobain.

st. gobain (sekurit) retain the usa DOT 27 number but its for the german factory.
the italian factory is DOT 37. the french factory is DOT 39 - i think DOT numbers go even further, they identify not just companies but either particular factories or particular divisions in countries.
presumably DOT 31 was retired and DOT 27 took over once st. gobain acquired kinonglas.

thats how you work out the manufacturer.
DOT number is a usa requirement but a lot of screens have it whether sold in cars in USA or not, even today. my renault clio has a DOT number on it. not a car that was even sold in the USA. its a 2002 model with a DOT 39, means its french french and french.

-------

but i can find out zero on the wiggly line and the plain D number that is usually near it.
narthing. but both sigla windscreens and kinonglas had it and the companies are entirely separate. were back then and still are today.
i think that symbol was particular to germany and meant something.
might have stood for laminated? interlayer. who knows. but there is no trace of info on it anywhere that i can find doing all sorts of searches. my usual go to places are mercedes forums and speciality sites. they often have this obscure stuff. no luck.

i did come across a mercedes benz from the 70s on an image search with an almost identical marking layout to the kinonglas 914 screens except it was made by sudglas.
This was DOT 30 and has also disappeared off the DOT list today. presumably sudglas was acquired by another company and absorbed. also had the wiggle line.



the weird logo in the sudglas screen is not a company logo.
its the british standards marking.
a lot of euro market cars carried it.
a lot of aussie cars had it too back in those days.
likely never on USA car windscreens.

conclusion.
a porsche could have either a sigla or a "st. gobain/st. gobain absorbed company" screen in it from factory. there won't necessarily be a logo. original factory installed screens more than likely just had the car brand on it. though maybe porsche did not do that.
mercedes and VW did. later replacement screens might have had the glass company logo and not the car brand logo. but the screens could be either.
the vast majority of VW screens would appear to have been "st. gobain".
914s were built by VW essentially. probably copped the st. gobain most of the time.
but a replacement screen could certainly have been a sigla. they would have been in the OEM supplier loop and could easily have made them too.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 6 2023, 12:49 AM

amusing bonus digging around on kraut glass.
its real hot here today. hiding inside from the UV bombardment.
its intense outside. feel like i'm getting sunburnt just going to pick up a slab from the bottle shop. hope it cools off so i can crack out the 914 for a run.
still quiet on the roads around here. everyone has left town.

on left merc screen.
on right screen on my 914.

all the numbers on the DOT line identical.
wiggle and D number identical.
ones got a merc logo ones a VW.
both kinonglass.
both match TJB/914's original photo of a 76.



kinonglas had been around for a long time before they got swallowed.




and here is some merc screen with an interesting label overlay.
must date from around the time sekurit swallowed them having been swallowed by st. gobain.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 6 2023, 06:20 AM

Absolutely correct. It is known as a kitemark. We called it a kite for short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitemark

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 6 2023, 08:02 AM

Unfortunately I can't. The codes all depend on how the manufacturer sets them up.

Since I worked at PPG I knew their system. DOT 18 was PPG.

Some of it was standardized... The M number defines the glass makeup and processing - I vaguely remember the M number had to be registered with UL or CSA as standards conformance testing had to be proven for the thickness, materials and processing of that configuration. Testing included ball drops, penetration, broken shard size, etc. US standards differ a bit from Euro.

AS1 mark defines the primary vision area - the windshield. AS2 is secondary vision areas like side and rear windows. AS3 would be for things like sunroofs. If the windshield has a blue / green tinted shade band at the top there will be an AS2 mark with an arrow on it, indicating it is not part of the primary area (they were also used in production for workers to line up the shade band of the laminated inner vinyl layer). The color was dyed into the vinyl not the glass.




This was made at PPG works no. 80 (Hawkesbury, Ontario) in November 2005.



This was made at PPG works 28 (Evansville, Indiana) in March 2004.

These are both OEM windshields. There was really good money in ARG (automotive replacement glass). Back in my day, a COMPLETE car set of glass sold to Honda for about $100. For replacement glass, just the windshield alone we could get more than what we sold the car set for. Tooling for windshields was cheap - that is why all glass companies make it (and it is usually the one that gets chipped and broken the most). I can't think of anyone that made tempered back and side glass for the aftermarket. The tooling and process was much more complicated and expensive. A single OEM run would make 10 years worth of replacement tempered glass and you could not compete with that because of tooling costs if you were not the OEM.

Is there a difference between OEM glass and ARG. Hell yes.
For OEM glass we had drawings and data for bend and size from the automaker. For ARG glass we would go out buy a piece of glass from a replacement auto glass company (that was hopefully made by the OEM). We would make tooling by cloning everything off of that single piece of glass. Typical glass size tolerance was +/- 1.5mm. God knows where that sample glass was at. We would wait for complaints from glass shops before making changes.

Thing is, glass that did not meet automaker specs (for size and bend) often found their way into the ARG market. It was good from a safety perspective, just would be rejected by the auto maker. Robotic installation would be a problem if the size was out but not a big deal for a guy at an auto glass shop to fiddle with.

I guarantee that Chinese made replacement windshield glass is made the same way. For our 50 year old 914s my question is how bad is the photocopy, of a photocopy, of a photocopy, of a photocopy...

As a general rule, anyone can make replacement windshields. Side and back glass is generally always OEM.

Naturally I'm a bit anal when it comes to windshield glass since I know how it was made. Is ARG glass garbage? It really depends on the source. I bought mine from Porsche for a reason maybe it is a photocopy closer to the original document.

Posted by: scott_in_nh Jan 6 2023, 08:38 AM

While my originality concerns don't extend to the windshield - I still find this all very interesting!
I have almost no history on my car, but knowing when the windshield was replaced would be another small piece to the puzzle.
As you can see the replacement is a PPG, but the markings are different then the ones above - can you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 decipher it for me?
Thanks!


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Posted by: TJB/914 Jan 6 2023, 11:06 AM

This really opened up the 914 brain trust experts

Here is a windshield photo taken July 2009 on a neighborhood 914-6. Info for our 914-6 guys.
Also wonder where this 914-6 ended up?? Anyone here?? I have old photo's to share.
Tom



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Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 6 2023, 11:16 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=12471

It has been 30+ years, so much has changed.

From what I can see it was made at PPG works 41 in Berea KY. It has a NAGS number on it (National Auto Glass Supply). NAGS is an industry organization that publishes a catalog for replacement glass for all makes and models. Glass shops use these to order glass from distributors. The NAGS number is is FW235 (FW means Foreign Windshield). This glass was made expressly for the replacement glass aftermarket. PPG was not an OEM for this part.

Since it is PPG not PGW, it means it was made before 2009 when PPG sold the auto glass division. The 0 means 2000 or 1990. It is not earlier because the PPG logo has a border next to the P and G (used to be right to the edge before 1987). I remember having to change a lot of silk screen artwork trademarks because of that pointless change...

It was made in the month of February. Solex is a light green tinted glass. The M 405 would have described that plus the thickness of the inner / outer glass layers and PVB middle layer... You could have different inner and outer glass thickness and or colors although the layers were generally the same type of glass - some Japanese cars used bronze colored glass instead of green. Our cars have clear or green tint glass. We had tables for M numbers to look them up.


Remember that trademark tells when the glass was made. It could have sat in a warehouse for a long time before being sold and installed into your car. It might not be that good for adding to the puzzle information.



1966-1987


1987-2016

Posted by: scott_in_nh Jan 6 2023, 11:50 AM

Thanks! It makes sense that the year is 1990 as the PO said the car was repainted in the early 90’s before his ownership and I have reason to believe the windshield was replaced when the car was last painted.
To add a somewhat useful point for everyone – this windshield has been in the car for ~30 years and >40k miles and was installed using modern adhesives – not the Butyl tape!
Hope I didn’t just jinx myself lol!

Scott

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 6 2023, 12:03 PM

What I am seeing in many of the 914 images posted is that Kinon made the OEM AS1 windshield (not Sigla) and Sekurit made the side glass.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 6 2023, 07:44 PM

wow @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893

interesting info download. thanks for that.
i'm not sure i should have flown off and dug up all that stuff on what a factory windscreen really was but it was so hot yesterday here there wasn't much else to do except put the feet up, crack a beer and stay inside. good for research.

at least mr. b ( @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 ) can enjoy the fruits - some more data for his classic website and closer to the "truth". whatever that is when it comes to 914s.

good to have it explained what the M code is - relating to a table (list).
can understand that now.
must have been how the rego authorities here 30 years ago satisfied themselves i had a legit screen for australia. probably looked up the M code. gave them what they were looking for. light transmission percentages?

looks like the squiggle and the D-code is something that will remain a mystery but i guess everyone now knows its not any kind of manufacturer symbol.
probably a german code thing? maybe they had a table (list) to go with that.
whatever it is.



on a side note @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 . i stumbled across a mention of kinonglas as being the supplier of the glazing in the famous FagusWerks building by Walter Gropius.
mr. kinon patented a particular kind of security glass with an early type of vinyl interlayer.
interesting innovator.

i couldn't find out much about sudglas which was the other manufacturer of what appeared to be a very similar windscreen fitted to some mercedes benzs but i think the scenario in the early 70s was that kinonglass as a factory and sudglas as a factory formed an association with sekurit and it was known as the sekurit-glas union gmbh.
gradually this then morphed into being known simply as sekurit. these days sekurit survives as a name by being the automotive glass division of st. gobain.
the renault i have has a windscreen branded with three names on it.

RENAULT
----------
SEKURIT
_______
St. Gobain

i believe that these days the remnants of kinonglas survives as Sekurit gmbh germany.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 6 2023, 08:04 PM

yes

the confusion may have arisen because 911s over in stuttgart made by reutter did have sigla windscreens. porsche had a different supplier than VW.

i did come across a photo of an english 930 turbo, an early turbo, that was claimed to have an original factory windscreen. it was an kinonglas screen just like the 914s.
so maybe porsche switched over from sigla in the 60s to kinonglas sometime in the 70s as well.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 6 2023, 09:08 PM

Found this with a google search. I wonder what ABG approval means?




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Posted by: wonkipop Jan 6 2023, 10:29 PM

great minds think alike?
i just found that one too.
i just had to try and find out what it was.

bless the new zealanders. must be something to do with being two islands full of car nuts who import stuff all the time.

translates as this.



i think what it is mr b is what the german had before the pan european standards were brought in that involve the E in a circle with a code system that goes with that.

i came across a german vintage VW blog and the version there said the herz symbol (the wave) means safety glass. so the D-XXX with a particular number is highly likely to be the german certificate that goes with that particular type of glass construction.
ie float/float. or float/toughened etc laminated. and for side windows etc the various types of toughened single sheet float.

pretty much the equal of the M code in the USA requirements which is the line above it on most of those german windscreens.

it all goes something like this.



i pulled my spare windscreen down but was not game to get the screen out of the box on my own. its all packed in there still with its proper foam edge protection. two person job to get it out and not risk damaging it. the marking was hidden by the foam protector pieces so i could not get a photo. the screen is dated from 92. i remember now i ordered it via hamiltons the distributor in australia shortly after returning from the USA.
it is a genuine screen. be interesting to see who the manufacturer is. nothing on the external box. only marked with porsche branding on the packaging.


EDIT
ps did you find that on the new zealand registration authority website like i did?

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 6 2023, 11:02 PM

I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. Maybe use a better image with the Kinon and DOT terms clearly depicted from a 914

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 6 2023, 11:16 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

found it.
jag nut website going into nutcase detail about triplex windscreens.
worse than us?
it is the official german approval.
link explains the lot. cheese eating surrender monkeys, krauts, limeys, etc.
looks like the european union put an end to it.

https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/triplex-logos-research-a-bit-of-help-needed/385846

interesting to see from that kiwi website how lame australia was.
just had a version of the british kite symbol.
i don't want to talk my own country down but such a colonial disappointment.
still is in many ways!

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 6 2023, 11:41 PM

I wonder if you can a few missing smdescriotions such as for the DOT 31, M# etc. also I’m pretty sure that the F in ‘Laminated F’ means tinted glass.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 6 2023, 11:55 PM

you would need DOT documents from back in the early 70s.
i have managed to find some stuff before from EPA but.........

and as @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 says you need the industry code books for particular manufacturers to get the M number. god knows where you find those now.

AS1 is not hard. it just means America Windscreen Glass. must be used on windscreens.

i did look up the PET.

there is only 4 windscreens.
3 of them have the same part number. you got to look across for a bit more description.
the last 1 has a different part number. its for a heat protection glass screen.
so there is only going to be 4 of these M numbers. or am i wrong?
and the description line for the manufacturer will be different at the end after the brand name of the glass. the bit where it goes F/F and HI. these will be different letter.
and i suppose there are four D number certificates.



lesson is, for those thinking of just faking up a transfer to do the "originality" thing on their windscreen better be careful which "original" marking you copy.

and it looks like from year to year there is subtle shifts in the graphic re-arrangement of the markings.

a bit like the tune up sticker on a 1.8.
is that an EC-A or an EC-B mate.

it would be fun to go along to a PCA concourse and mess with the judges minds?
its way tricky stuff this quest for originality.
not sure its a worthy endeavour.
better to just have a few original cars sitting around in museums and go for it with the rest of whats rolling. hot em up. whatever.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 12:03 AM

by the way i think the herz symbol is cute on the german glass certification.
i wouldn't mind betting it symbolises a heartbeat.
ie you live with this glass instead of dying?
just a thought.

i dunno, it was a much more imaginative world before it started to go all global.
the whole of europe is now just the stupid E with a circle.
but back then the national character of how you do things really came through?

the french one is really good. AGREE. followed by certificate number.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 12:16 AM

that is from my 914.
but you are right the reflection is bad.
i'll take another photo when the light isn't messing with me.

i need to find out what HI means on the manufacturer line to do a final version.

also i have that 73 1,7 on file with the different letters in the manufacturer's description line.
i need to work out what they might mean. it appears to be a different type of screen construction entirely. says FIFA/F whatever that is.

and just to really mess with things that image posted above of a 914/6 screen is a whole different ball game compared to mine and the 73 i have on file.
but i reckon its dead set original and fairly interesting.

?????

EDIT
laminated F definitely does not mean tinted.
i have a totally clear screen.
that was the big deal about getting registered in aus.
had to be clear.
laminated F is my screen on my car. so its not tinted.
everything i have come across that explains what various letters means says F = float.
i think in the case of my screen it means that neither of the glass laminations are toughened. its just plain laminated float glass. thats what i think.

the side glass probably has the clues. being single glazed that stuff will definitely be toughened. which is a T apparently.

i think tint is covered in the M codes. but you need access to those code books for each manufacturer.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 01:11 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i got my crack researcher on to it.
the chick who painstakingly cleaned the falcon ute interior with dishwashing liquid and toothbrush. she normally works at a top end indigenous art research institute at melbourne university.

she turned up the info that the D number, the ABG number as it is really known was issued by the Kraftfarht-Bundesarnt.



------

i might put her on to digging into DOT numbers.
it will cost me a case or two of ASAHI beer but it might be worth it.

her grandfather, father and uncle prepared the car that won the bathurst 500 in 1968 when she was still in nappies. 914s are her third favourite car after holden torana GTR-XU1s, and the citroen Karin concept car. so you never know what she might find.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 7 2023, 11:07 AM

A couple of things I am curious about:

On the side windows, Delodur-1 is clear, Delodur-F is tinted. Most of the windshield bugs have that "F" designation and tinted windshields were made for the 914. Tinted 914 windshields are so lightly tinted the tint is almost imperceptible, maybe they found yours was acceptable, even though it was techncially tinted?

Does herz=hertz? I found a german spelling of it as 'herz' (named after Heinrich Hertz, German physicist), but have only known that term to be hertz. If so I suppose either is correct. That hertz symbol was linked to the ABG number in that explanatory 'key' image that we both found so it is part of the desgination of that "D"-number.

The PET page posted indicates 4 windshields. One windshield was made for the /6..why was that necessary? One was for heat protection, could that be the HI designation?

One of the images indicates "Plate". Would that be the non-laminated glass (Non-US markets only)?

Also, have not heard of 'toughened' glass before. Laminated, tempered, annealed, float (plate). Am I correct in understanding that 'toughend' must be tempered and the term is used in some parts of the world? A windshield (at least here in the USA, and Canada) should be tempered over tempered and laminated with the plastic interlayer.

On the M numbers I thought they were model numbers for each specific part as determined by each manufcturer. So not just 4 M numbers total, but one or more for each manufacturer that makes a 914 windshield or its variants.

Then there is this one from a 1972 currently on BaT (closes this morning). It appears to be originally a german market car from one of the stickers. It says Laminated Plate which I think is correct for the german market at the time. How it came to the US with that windshield is questionable.


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 04:09 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

re tough v tempered. down here we refer to it as toughened glass.
same thing. heat treated for strength.

you are right about the side glazing. if it has got the F. might have to look further into that. the jag website i linked to above lists all the letters used. states F is for float glass.
that info might be wrong. the glass in my car is Delodur1 in the side windows and rear window so i had not picked up on that F being there. further investigation required.

the windscreen from the car on BAT is a USA rated windscreen.
nothing mysterious there. its got the AS1 rating marked on it.
its also laminated as it should be. see at the top. of the marking

the plate glass descriptor is interesting.
there will be an explanation for that.
could be as simple as the germans changed the term but where referring to the same thing. ie sheet glass/plate glass/float glass. you can get yourself into tricky territory with the old plate glass versus float glass discussion. anyway its a lam screen.
its very similar to the 73 screen i posted on first page of this thread.
similar but not exactly the same.
need more info/data.

the PET i referred to showed a distinct windscreen for both the 914/6 and the 914 2.0 together rather than just the 6. still - as you say, what was that about. yet it has the same part number as the one for standard 4s. dunno.
more data needed.

re M numbers. they would be different for each manufacturer.
but they might be describing the same thing. ie same construction.
anyways, i'm only going to poke my head into kinonglas. as far as i can tell that is the one that the factory was installing.

i am not sure about the tempered over tempered for a windscreen in the USA.
or as we would say, toughened over toughened.
i know a lot about glass in architectural applications.
normally we cannot get laminated toughened. its laminated float.
we can only get toughened as single sheet.
now that may be a limitation of architectural glass and codes as they relate to regulation rather than a manufacturing limitation.
further research required.
however, that screen you have posted from BAT is USA so its a moot point.
AS1 on the DOT and M line means its a USA approved screen or USA standard screen.

herz means heart.
a couple of ways you could see that wavy line.
a sine wave. hertz.
a heartbeat herz.
who knows exactly why the germans chose that symbol.
they just did.
the French as i found out use the word AGREE instead of a symbol. which means APPROVED.

some more work to do.
the F thing is interesting. you may be right.
have to investigate further.
i'll look into DELODUR and see what that is about.

i guess its a bit like the ECA/B research.
you have to acquire enough examples to get to the bottom of it.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 04:33 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i had a look at the car on BAT you are referring to.
white car? latest on list?

not sure that is a german delivery car.
its got a VIN sticker. looks original. i guess it could be a repro.
but if it was german would not have one.
its also got a correct Vin plate on windscreen. does look a bit shiny though.
german car would not have one.
and its got USA tyre pressure sticker on fuel tank where USA cars have it.
german car would have it on the right inner wheel well in front trunk.

i don't know enough about early cars.
are you saying the fuel octane sticker is the wrong one.
explanation for fuel octane sticker could be that its a repro.
someone got it wrong doing a fix up/"resto"?
or are you seeing other clues its german delivery besides the fuel octane sticker.


its all pretty interesting. so many ways you can get an "authentic" resto wrong when you really start sticking your head into it. disappear down the rabbit hole.


EDIT
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
thanks to your prompt i looked closer at PET again on side windows.
see on previous page where i posted the page from my PET catalogue on file.
there are two types of side windows (for both the wind up section and the fixed triangle).
only two.
one is clear. one is heat protection glass.
so is the distinction in the side windows then.
DELODUR 1 and DELODUR F.
i have not seen a DELODUR F. but if that is the other side window, then what it says to me is one or the other is heat protection. not sure which one but.

FURTHER EDIT
and its different again for the rear window.
its two types.
clear is one.
but the other is not heat protection its the heated rear window.
i have a DELODUR 1 on my rear window and its not a heated rear window.
so there is the clue i think.
DELODUR 1 is likely to be the clear glass?
DELODUR F is heat protection glass?

can you post a pic of a DELODUR F side window mr. b

and if that logic is right.
the F on a front screen possibly means the same or similar thing.
but not so much tinted as heat protection.
probably at that 70% threshold that i think is the regulation at that time for light transmission in a windscreen.
as to exactly how that heat protection was done would need a bit of further digging.

F/F on my front screen and DELODUR F on a side window tends to indicate its the glass itself. as the side windows are not laminated. you would think they would do it with the interlayer in the front screen but maybe they did not back then. its possibly the glass itself?

i 50% agree with you now. F would likely mean something to do with being not fully clear? but i would not use the word tint necessarily to describe it.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 05:41 PM

to explain a little further about the front screen.

usually they use the / to describe the interlayer.
in modern screens you often see a lot of different versions of this.
like two. // and other variations on the theme.
it is usually these days floating just above the circle with the E in it on euro markings.

hence i think with a 914 front screen which goes F/F that likely means the interlayer was nothing fancy and F each side of it is indicating that the glass is the special thing.
two sheets of F either side of standard interlayer.

we have to think back that its 50 years ago. so interlayer tech would have been far less developed than it is these days. these days they do a lot of fancy stuff with the glass interlayer itself. clear zones for toll reader trigger units etc. heads up display areas.
you name it. but back then it would have been way less fancy.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 06:49 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

getting a bit closer on the DELODUR name on side and rear glass.

did a bit of looking about on samba.
VW kooks take their research right back into the 50s.

so DELODUR is either a company or a brand name that comes from the merger of
Duro-Glas and Delog. the blended title for the merged company is DELODUR.

the LIZ. SEKURIT bit on the side glass means this.
LIZ. is abbreviation for licensed in german.
so that means either
Licensed to SEKURIT or licensed from SEKURIT.

old VW glass prior to merger of Duro-Glas.
still LIZ. SEKURIT even back then.



-----

is this the side glass you are talking about.
it is DELODUR-1F. so its got an F after the 1.
interesting it also has the Audi Rings as well as the VW symbol.
similar to the 76 windscreen in the first post that started all this off.




there is quite a few things to track on the glass.
seems to me not only is there the spec for the different windscreens.
but it could well be that for each year the way the information is written and the way it is arranged graphically on the mark changes. or it might be for each year or change at distinct points in time.
they might have been describing exactly the same screen and spec, but its written differently in 1970 than how it is written in 74. or any other year!

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 7 2023, 07:12 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104


There is a historical meaning to various terms like toughened, tempered, float and plate.

I would say 99.99% of all windshield glass now made is from laminated sheets of annealed float glass. None of it is tempered or toughened. It may have at some point in history but the reason is rather obvious. Have you ever seen how tempered glass shatters into what looks like ice crystals? Imagine a stone hitting the windshield and instantly the glass turns into that? You suddenly wouldn't see anything in front of you.

The terms plate glass and float glass were used to describe the process of making glass... plate glass was typically drawn vertically out of a molten pool of glass. It would have a wavy pattern and it was ground and polished to make it flat. Float glass is made by molten glass flowing out onto molten tin ribbon and "floating" on it until it cooled. This was obviously a better glass. I can see there being differences in mechanical properties between float and plate glass and that may be the difference in some trademarks having float or plate designations. I don't know when thing like that happened in what years. Now the terms are interchangeable.

Trivia... what does PPG stand for? Many think it is Pittsburgh Paint and Glass - wrong. It actually was Pittsburgh Plate Glass. They were the first company to successfully operate a commercial plate glass process.


Annealed, tempered, toughened.

Windshields are made from annealed glass. Two pieces of glass are cut with the inner piece being a bit smaller so when they bend, the edges line up to be square. The flat glass is dusted with a material so the two pieces do not stick together when being bent.

The flat glass is placed on "bending irons" which are typically made of stainless steel with pivoting weighted wings. The bending irons support the glass around the periphery and as the glass travels through the lehr (bending furnace) it softens, sags and bends into shape by gravity. It takes a lot of skill with the right heating profiles to get the glass into the right shape. After slow cooling the layers are separated and the PVB vinyl gets inserted then heated with a vacuum or nipper rollers to squeeze out air. The final process it is put into a huge autoclave to be heated and pressurized. That squeezes the glass to the vinyl gets the air out and it goes from milky to clear.

Tempered glass is similar but different. Glass is cut, machined for size and to give a rounded edge and if needed, drill holes for hardware. The glass goes through a furnace on ceramic rollers to a bending station where it gets picked up (with a vacuum) and dropped onto a bending form. Then it is immediately basted with compressed air from oscillating nozzles that cool the glass rapidly tempering it. This induces huge stresses. The outsides are in compression the core is in tension. It gives the glass lots of physical strength but that is not where the safety part comes from. If the compressive layer is comprised (by an impact) the stress becomes unbalanced at the the entire piece shatters into tiny fragments. None of these fragments are large enough to make a knifelike shard that will cut you deeply. This is the safety part. Strong (I have stood on a curved side window without it breaking) cheap and safe. Sometimes you can see the nozzle stress patterns in tempered back windows of cars if you are wearing polarized sunglasses.

Most tempered glass is now made horizontally on rollers.
Earlier tempered glass went through the furnace hung vertically from tongs. The glass was then pressed from the sides before being tempered. It has very characteristic tong marks or dimples pushed into the glass surface near one edge. I think I saw these on the side glass of our 914s?


Tempered glass has specifications for how it breaks. There is a maximum weight for the largest shattered piece. Euro standards have smaller size fragments and are harder to make. I remember when when we had to make a Euro spec window for a customer and the process could not cool the glass fast enough in the summer (hot ambient air). The plant manager went baillistic saying what am I supposed to tell the customer that we can't make their glass in the summer? Well... yeah... it's physics. Thinner glass is harder to properly temper than thicker glass too.

Toughened glass is tempered glass but not to the same level. The shards will be bigger.

One of my jobs as a young engineer was to test glass samples in the lab by dropping metal darts and huge ball bearings from various heights onto the glass. We would log the test results and have to send additional samples out to Underwriters Labs or Canadian Standards Association for independent certification. I just did the testing not the submissions. This is where the M numbers were used. The M number would be the certification for that particular type of glass, thickness, lamination / temper etc. It is very possible that the M number had to go to the DOT for registration - but I don't know that for a fact. We also did light transmission and abrasion testing on the glass too. All of this was recorded for each M number.

Although there is a lot of science in making glass, there is also a lot art in the process too. It takes a lot more for everything to come together than we sometimes imagine.

You guys have done some amazing research on the trademarks or "bugs" as some call them. Bravo!

Don't get too hung up on the way things are presented in the trademarks. There were no hard and fast rules. It had to meet regulations for minimum information but beyond that it was up to the glass company how they presented it. Sometimes the auto maker wanted specific things (like logos or bar codes) but they left the rest to us. We had a standardized trademark catalog but often had to make minor changes. Obviously, aftermarket replacement glass was much less strict than OEM (that required the car maker to approve).

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 07:37 PM

thanks for that @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893

your remarks regarding windscreens and lamination make 100% sense to me.
the whole idea of a modern safety windscreen is that it is not meant to explode.
which toughened glass tends to do spectacularly.
i've watched a very expensive triple glazed sliding door glazing unit explode after one of the guys installing accidentally tapped the edge with his tool belt hung hammer.
everyone standing with 10 feet had a heart attack.
and then the glazier had heart attacks for the rest of the afternoon thinking about the replacement.

i would have thought the windscreens are all laminated. but not laminations of toughened.

here is some more for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .
i found these from the ECA/B file fairly easily when i went back and scoured.
from a 1974 1.8 that was very original.
in 1974 they were doing the side glass as DELODUR - F.
pretty interesting to compare to that one that AASE advertises with 1F rather than F.
which is probably a 1976 one given the audi rings. but who knows.
anyway a straight up DELODUR-F.
interestingly the D number is different on the F in 74 than the 76(?) one.





got to digest the rest of @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 's download for all his good info.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 07:52 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893

that is just brilliant about the sunglasses and tempered glass.
for years i have wondered what those patterns were that i saw in the back glass and side windows of the 914. i was wondering, is this some kind of horrible degradation going on and one day i will wake up to exploded glass everywhere in the garage.

but its not in the windscreen.

interestingly my renault clio from 2002 does not seem to exhibit those patterns in the glass with the sunnies on. but the citroen xm from 99 does.
the glass in the renault is quite a bit more tinted and its factory tint.
recently australia really relaxed on glass tinting standards for cars.
it has been in response to the alarming skin cancer rates and over the top UV levels in the southern hemisphere. we have greater ozone depletion down here than the northern hemisphere. even our windscreens are allowed to be notably darker than they once were. i used to know a red headed girl with fair skin back in the 90s. she always used to drive with long sleeves and gloves on and with giant jackie onassis sunglasses. she was a doctor. had a fear of skin cancer.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 08:30 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893

given vitamin's big explanation and thinking about it.

i reckon whether its toughened (tempered) or laminated float (plate) is taken up in the trade (brand) name of the glass.

in the front screens that being KRISTALL. referring to a copyright name for a particular way of laminating the glass with particular interlayer and certain specific process and machines. made by KINONGLAS.

and in the side windows and rear windows.
DELODUR - meaning toughened or tempered and a registered copyright name for a particular process for doing it in a particular factory. made by SEKURIT.

and yes i think you are right Jeff.
the F refers to what you might call tint. or more correctly heat protection.
except i think it amounts to a naturally darker glass by composition rather than tinting as we normally think of it.
if there is no F its not heat protected. ie the 1 designation on side glass.

this naturally darker glass is used on side windows but is toughened and tempered using the particular manufacturer and copyrighted process.
and same goes for windscreens except lamination process.

that would be my guess.

beyond that you are going to need books with M codes and/or the german tables for D codes. way beyond my pay grade or i suspect standard internet searches.

if you could accumulate enough examples i am sure it does come down to the 4 different screens in the PET. its just that the description might slightly change through the years.

there appears to be basically an F/F front screen.
and then there appears to be variations on IRA/S front screens.
earlier ones appear to say IRA/S
later ones say FIRA/F but maybe not same. because there is that pesky F again.
but they seem to be later screens that have FIRA/F v earlier screens saying IRA/S.
i reckon its more or less the same thing.
it appears to be the alternative screen to more common F/F.
the other variants say either F/F or nothing.
all the ones i have found appear to have the HI tacked on the end whatever the IRA/S FIRA/F or F/F. so i don't think HI has anything to do with heat protection glass.
what HI means - i dunno. high impact? or something like that?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 08:58 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

ok i just went back into PET on windscreens.

so there are 3 there that are clear.
one of them is indicated as being for 914/6 and for 2.0
one of them is indicated for being for 914/4, 1.7 and 1.8.
both have same part numbers. and why the difference. i mean there is none is there.
there is a third clear one.
this has again the same part # and specifically says not for USA, CND and S.
(canada and sweden)
and it says it is tempered plate glass. so there was one tempered or toughened windscreen. surprising to me. but in looking closely not so surprised. PET describes other three as laminated. but makes no mention of laminated for this one. i don't think its laminated. its one single sheet of glass. if it is then i can understand how its been made. its been formed and then its been tempered. thats the only way you can do it.
what it is saying Jeff is that tempered screens are not for the USA. definitely not a USA standard. so i will bet a 1000$ that that screen whatever it is does not have AS1 written on it?

and then the fourth one is the heat protection glass.
and its the one with the different part no.
it is described additionally as laminated.

so there will be three with laminated written on the screen.
the toughened or tempered one will probably not say laminated anywhere on it.

the spare one i have in the box is the commonly shared part number that three of them have. 914 541 101 10. lucky i have it still in its box because i can at least link a screen to a part #. its on the box. no other way to do it as no part # on screen itself.
going to be interesting when i get the screen out and see whats on it.
but not going to rush into that. i need a friend around here to help me get it out carefully. whatever it is though part # says its clear (and one of the versions of the clear).

i've got my fingers crossed its not a f$%ken tempered one. last thing i want as a spare.
i don't think it will be as i am pretty sure its got to be lam glass for australia, and i don't believe the aus distributor would have been that stupid. they used to know what they were doing. but you never know. i'm really going to have to have a look at it now.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 09:43 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

it just hit me why the difference of screens for /6 and /2.0 versus the 1.7/1.8
higher top speed.
its an impact strength thing?
i think what we will probably find is that the 6 and the 2.0 has a different screen than the humble 4s.
you need to find a few 6s or 2.0s known to have original screens and see what is notated on them. this is for the clear screens.

i notice that for the heat protection screen with the different part number that is in column to the far right of PET there is no distinction or listing of models.
that screen must be impact/speed rated for use in all the cars. its a stronger screen up to the standard needed for a 6 but they only bother to make one variant? probably the most expensive screen too?

they did the same thing for the tyres.
1.7s and 1.8s had the S rated tyre.
2.0s had the H rated tyre (think its H isn't it or was it V? whatever its not S).
there is a speed threshold standard somewhere in there.
german standard?
the faster cars get a stronger standard clear screen than the slower small engine standard cars?

and somewhere in the mix they could do a toughened screen but its only permitted in the smaller 4 in certain parts of the world and was never used in the 6 or 2.0 anywhere in any part of the world. thats how i read the PET.

EDIT - and i am starting to remember when i got my screen.
my mate with the original assessment 6 did the deal through the distributor and got me in on it. so with a bit of luck what i have is a screen fit for a 6 because they were two screens bought in together and the order was made with the 6 in mind. i think they would have got it right. anyway more reason to get it out of the box.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 7 2023, 11:01 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

one more for you.
i was trying to think where would a car be that did not have the USA approved windscreen.
i thought of the silver 74 1.8 in the porsche museum. its a german delivery car.
the one we got one of the elusive engine tin stamp numbers from.

i only have my photos i took years and years ago.
can't quite enhance it enough to really read it.
but i can see its got way less on it than USA windscreen.

if i interpolate it it looks to me like its missing the whole DOT-CODE M-CODE AS1 line.
i think i can just make out the german squiggle hertz/herz symbol at bottom
and it looks like it has the manufacturer description under the VW logo.

i think i might go searching on the web for images others have taken off this car.
might luck out and find a close enough shot to read it.
this could be the toughened screen not permitted in the USA?

EDIT, gave up on finding an image myself.
shot an email off to the curator since i had his contact and he did respond to me once before.
got an auto response - he is back to work on the 9th.
see if he can access the car and give us a photo.
never know.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 8 2023, 12:44 AM

alright @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

i dug into heat protected glass this afternoon.
its not tint - here is the distinction.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 will correct me if i am way wrong.

tints work by cutting down in the visible spectrum of light.
this was incompatible with transparency standards at that time. 70%.
the glass itself was almost at the 70% all on its own before you even thought of tinting = no tinting. often even on side glass. at least not legally back then.

so they came up with heat absorbing glass.
which deals with light in the infrared spectrum but does not affect visible wavelengths.
so they could do heat control and still pass visibility/transparency regulation.

the modern form of one of these treatments or types of glass more properly is IRR
infra-red reflectance glass. it works just as the name suggests. reflects the heat spectrum and glass does not absorb it. its proper abbreviation is IRR.
sound familiar?

the earlier form was infra-red absorbent glass. IRA. not the irish republican army the nuns used to collect for. it didn't really work. it absorbs the infra-red before it hits the interior but it ends up heating the glass itself which then radiants into the interior.
they really don't use this one any more. but it was the tech back in the day with 914s and other 70s cars.

its pretty obvious which screens are the heat protected screens - they are the ones that have IRA in the description line after the makers name.

so i am going to have to go back to my original position which is i don't agree with you that F means tint. there was no tint glass in 914s from factory. only heat control.

i know that upsets the reasoning on the side glass, but there has to be some other meaning to the 1 or F or 1F code there.

also thanks to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 's superb breakdown on glass for idiots like me, i can now understand what is going on with early cars referring to plate and later ones referring to F or as i believe F to mean Float glass.

to begin with in early cars they were making the primary sheets of glass for the build up of the windscreens from plate glass. or as it was sometimes known. sheet glass. and as vitamin points out, older process, caused ripples in glass, had to be polished and ground flat to remove distortions in the case of windscreens, or even high end architectural use.
float let them produce flat sheets of glass more effeciently with either no polishing or very minimal polishing. cheaper in the long run.

so i think what we see with 914 windscreens is the flip over down at the kinonglas factory where they go from using plate or sheet glass as the raw base material to float glass.
and that happens around about 73 or so. maybe 74. the earlier ones are using S.
the later ones have the same descriptions for glass but use F. its basically essentially the same material just made a different way. of course it would have involved a whole new raft of tests and certificates because thats how bureacracy works. and maybe it had slightly different impact performance outcomes. who knows. you would have to see those codes to pick up any subtleties.

so at this stage i am saying the F/F is the clear screen. or it might be S/S or even just described as plate glass in earlier versions.

but if its got IRA in it, then its the heat control glass. and that can either have F or S in it depending on whether its pre 73/74 or after.

will need to find a better explanation for the side glass i think.
you might be correct about it in relation to side glass and heat control but it does not mean the logic extends to the windscreen so abruptly or directly. like F is all there is to it.

i could expand further. maybe they got performance out of vertical side glass that was F equal to performance out of IRA simply as a result of side glass being vertical and windscreen glass laying over on an angle and being laminated. ie this gave equal performance all round for the so called heat performing glass. given orientation of surfaces and sun assumed to be overhead.

and when you used the straight up F/F windscreen it gave the same performance as the clear or 1 grade glass on the side windows. my solar orientation on architectural windows is kicking in here.

back windows just got 1 grade DELOCURE because its passively shaded by the roll bar anyway. all they want there is heated glass for condensation control as a lux feature.

end of research.
been another roaster of a day here that denied me my 914 drive.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 8 2023, 01:12 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104
here is the example that perhaps clearly illustrates what i am talking about.

this car on BAT.
1974 1.8. claimed to be low mileage original. certainly very original.
the glass package is interesting.
its all photographed in the detail images.
its got an FIRA/F screen. its described as laminated F.
its side windows are DELODUR F
its order form/window sticker is marked as tinted glass option - all around.
unfortunately no image of rear window.
but its a pretty reliable example to go off in my humble opinion.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-59/


my car is a 74 1.8
it has an F/F screen. described as laminated F
DELODUR 1 side windows.
DELODUR 1 rear window.
i don't have an order form sadly. original owner never passed that on in the file.
the side windows sure are clear.
(why would you get tinted windows in maryland anyway? which is where it came from new).

i rest my case tentatively on these two examples for now.
FIRA/F + DELODUR F = so called "tinted glass" option. american terminology.
F/F + DELODUR 1 = standard clear glass package. no "tinted glass".

of course this is only good for 1974.

i know there is another 74 "tinted window" example somewhere in ECA/B files that is a car i came across. just have to find it again. and i know it had an order form.
a pretty good one actually as it was a tourist delivery USA car that was picked up from karmann factory. but would need to find it and look to see if it has glass images.
and there is always the question does it still have original screen.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 8 2023, 02:44 PM

Heat absorbing glass has been around for an awfully long time. PPG came out with Solex (now called Solexia by the new owners) back in the 1930s. Nothing really exotic about it, the glass has a greenish tinge or tint. It basically adds an impurity of iron and or chromium ions that does not transmit IR but absorbs it. I think it also has higher UV absorption too. The car still gets hot inside.

PPG had IR reflective glass (Sungate?) but I think this was a metallic coating on the inside next to the vinyl to reflect IR. They used to apply it with sputter coating ion deposition technology. From the late 80s onwards there was a big push to add technology to laminated parts. Thin film deposition gave better IR /UV performance (but would stop your radar detector from working too). Rain sensors, heated w/s, heads up display reflectors and all kinds of stuff. Most of it was gimmicky and short lived. About the only thing I sometimes see these days is a heating grid under the parked wipers for freezing rain. But I doubt these are useful in places like Los Angeles or Sydney.

One of my 914's replaced w/s is made with Solex glasss so it has been around for ages and continues to be made (the other w/s is made by Sigla so not OEM either). I'm sure other companies have identical equivalents - patents have long run out.




I noticed something interesting when I was in a junk yard looking at dead 914s. All the cars that had heated rear windows had clear (not the greenish heat absorbing tint) glass all around. I guess it sort of makes sense - you don't need heat protection glass if the car is in a cold climate with a heated back window... I harvested a heated back window from one of the five dead 914s.




Speaking of heated back windows... Tin float glass picks up tin ions in the surface that contacts the molten tin bath. With a UV light source, you can identify the tin side. It fluoresces a whitish glow compared to the non tin side. This is important for making windows with heated circuits. If the heated circuit is printed on the tin side it will appear a dark reddish brown color from the outside of the vehicle. If printed on the non tin side it would be a lighter orange color. Most auto companies wanted it darker although there were a few Japanese makers that wanted the lighter color ...more trivia.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 8 2023, 03:10 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

now i know what i am looking for, found these easily trawling through BAT.
restricted search to 74 and above for the moment.
these examples show the combo of glass you got if you ticked tinted glass all round option.

2 full examples from 74 with showroom sticker/order form - or cert of authenticity.
tinted windows all round box ticked for both.
both have the FIRA/F screen, DELODUR F side windows.
one has an image of DELODUR 1 rear window.

1 example from 75. no cert of auth or showroom sticker.
but full package of window images.
as per both 74 except all glass has audi rings added to VW logo.

1 example from 1976 has showroom sticker/order form.
tinted windows all round box ticked.
as per 75. except side windows are DELODUR 1F.

------

example of 74








so far unsuccessful finding example like mine with an attached cert of auth/showroom order form. but have collected examples of other 74s matching mine.
F/F front screen with DELODUR 1 side glass in combo.
sure to pop up one eventually.
not every seller bothers to shoot the glass markings on BAT.

--------

found a bumblebee with a cert of authenticity that stated tinted windscreen.
as distinct from other four examples which stated tinted glass all round.
the example had its original windscreen replaced.
but all side glass looked original and aged.
all side glass was DELODUR 1.

--------

i'll keep the stuff i find filed.

the place for this thread or a new one that compiles the info clearly is probably better in the originality section of the website. but not just yet. we need some stuff from pre 74.
its not worth putting in until its been cracked with reasonable certainty.
--------

bonus find - 914/6 with a sudglas screen.
looks interesting.
black screen marking not white.
my guess - later OEM spare part from porsche.
sudglass must have run a batch but not during 914 production?
black markings on screen much more like modern windscreens similar black marks,
the screen has full set of standards printed on it.
French , German, USA, etc
its a infra-red screen.
of interest the interlayer in the screen looked like it was failing at all its corners.
quality control?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 8 2023, 03:19 PM

excellent bit of info @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 .

i'd say thats pretty much all a 914 "tinted" screen is.

the DELODUR 1 on the side windows looks like its what we call low iron or ultra clear glass in construction circles. DELODUR 1 is probably toughened plate or sheet versus DELODUR F being toughened float. the glass would have come out of two different processes or production lines. the float glass they were using appears to have been naturally greener (darker) due to its composition.
they just amped it up with the outer layer of the windscreen lamination for the so called tinted screen with extra ingredients in the glass mix as you say.

i'll be interested to see if porsche museum gets back to me.
the curator did last time i wrote.
so long as you are very specific about what you want and it won't take too much time he wanders over with his iphone, takes a snap and emails it directly.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 8 2023, 07:09 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

I hope the curator sends something useful too. You would expect, if it is a good example, the car would be a rather unmolested original "production" vehicle. Of course there is always the danger that the glass was experimental i.e. not intended for public use. We had a research group that made all sorts of one-offs and specials. They even made huge bubble canopies with chemically tempered glass (like smartphone screens) for concept cars to show off capabilities.

Posted by: StarBear Jan 9 2023, 10:44 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

Ok, here’s mine. Yet again, different. 1974 1.8 with Apperance Group. Chassis from nov 73; build date May 74.
The windshield emblem in lower right by vin plate but very faint so not able to photograph. Has:
Flag-like Logo
Made In Western Germany
SIGLA
Squiggle wave D-79
DOT 25 M91
Yet the door glass and corner triangle glass look just like the others:



Do, why would/should windshield be different? Original owner, so not replaced to my knowledge.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 03:08 PM

i was waiting for you to chime in @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 .

and upset the applecart.
thats very interesting about the sigla screen.

dunno.
maybe there is a variety of screens that went in at the factory after all.

be interesting to hear what @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15080 has in his car as i believe it might be pretty original too. though windscreens are always hard ones as many got replaced.
but for sure you would know the history of yours.
about the only thing that could happen might be screen damaged during shipping out from germany back in time and screen replaced before delivery.
but thats just a guess. either variety of screens at factory depending on time of build or replacement. who knows?

PS - @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 judging from the side glass it looks like your car is "untinted" window package.
have you got a window sticker or order form still in your documentation that says how the car came regarding options?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 03:20 PM

its a good condition base model euro spec 74 1.8 the factory has. standard off production line.
it belonged to Horst Marchart the former development chief at Porsche - he worked on the development of the boxster. the car was his company car or personal car when he first worked at porsche as a young engineer. he donated it to the collection.
its hard to know to what degree it might have been "restored" or freshened up for the museum - but certainly the engine was in completely unmolested state.
ironically besides the two monster 914/8s they had it was for many years the only other 914 in the collection. these days they have a 6 as well but i believe it was bought from a 914/6 owner in the USA who had restored it beautifully. they didn't seem to keep 914s.
although the same could be said of early 911s etc as well. they more or less sold everything they built including a lot of prototypes.

Posted by: StarBear Jan 9 2023, 03:52 PM

Yep! Tinted windshield. See below:

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 9 2023, 04:12 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

Is this what the trademark looks like that you have? I managed to get a readable shadow on a piece of paper.



I too have a Sigla w/s in my 74. It may be original - I have no way of telling. I do have the certificate for it that says tinted side glass. That really doesn't make sense to me that you could order only side glass that was heat absorbing? To me it should be all windows or none.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

It may well be that Sigla glass was installed at the factory too. I will have a look see... Maybe I can tell if any of the glass has a green tinge.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 04:36 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893
thats real interesting the way it specifically says "tinted side glass"
i did find that one 74 bumblebee that specifically said "tinted windscreen"
it has DELODUR 1 side glass. the screen was tinted but was a newer domestic brand replacement.

and then there are all the other more common ones i have come across that say
"tinted glass all round". those ones all have the infra-red windscreen and the DELODUR F side glass.

you probably could get exactly what you wanted if you actually ordered your car from factory versus taking one off the showroom floor. suspect the factory did combos of non tinted or tinted all round as stock for dealers, but would do specific orders for buyers who ordered a car from factory to their own spec. and dealers would definitely have installed a tinted screen in if it meant a sale. no big deal to tear a screen out and put one in for a buyer.

the yellow 74 2.0 that recently sold on BAT and belonged to one family (2 brothers) all its life and was verified as a very original car by a member here who knew the car its entirel life has the same window package as mine. untinted. F/F windscreen and DELODUR 1 side and rear glass. but it had no original window sticker or CofA in documentation.
thats the combo i am finding hard to link up documentation to. the variation that is on my car and is very common to a lot of 74 cars.
EDIT - in relation to comments below and evidence of SIGLA screens, the yellow 2.0 was a later 74 MY car. produced some time much later in 1974. think it was may or something like that without checking my file.

Posted by: StarBear Jan 9 2023, 04:42 PM

Yep, that’s what my windshield etching looks like. I have a POA for my car, will check if any tinting notation.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 04:45 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893

i'm just looking at your certificate and date of car.
so yours is a 1.8?
as far as we can work out cars in that date band of nov 73 to end of jan 74 are all 1.8s

so there maybe is something there.
like maybe that batch of 1.8s that first are done from late oct 73 to some cut off point all got sigla screens. my 1.8 is late jan 74 build.

we might be on to something.
ah the mysteries of the 914. pretty funny.

EDIT
with that production date it could also be one of the last of the first batch of 2.0s that were done in 74 model year. its around that time they move into making the 1.8s which were late to get the 1.8 engine supply which does not happen until Nov 73.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 04:54 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753

thats great you have your "window sticker".
and very interesting the way it says just "tinted windscreen" specifically.
and it fits with the DELODUR 1 side glass being so called "untinted".

i'm thinking its def an original screen you have.

anyway. its pretty esoteric given cars lose their windscreens along the way.
but certainly the blanket statement that only sigla screens were original is incorrect.
looks like there are quite a few possibilities to make PCA judges choke on their weeties if thats your scene.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 05:00 PM

we just need @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 to pipe in now.
he has a pretty original car - be interesting to know what glass is in his.
i think its a december 73 build car.

Posted by: StarBear Jan 9 2023, 05:03 PM

Here it is. “tinted windshield”. Side glass not tinted. Maybe that’s why they’re different?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 05:09 PM

so this is the late 74 2.0 that was on BAT and very original car.
its a MAY 74 build. i just checked.

all the glass matches mine.
thinking this is your "non tinted" standard glass package.
but no CofA. or window sticker.
similar predicament to me.

i think what happens on BAT is people use the CofA or window sticker as a prompt.
they reference the option list and then go photograph everything that is an option to tick it off for originality. so "tinted glass" as an option prompts them to photograph all the glass. whereas your standard package doesn't prompt sellers to photograph glass.
hence i can't seem to easily find a nice neat CofA or sticker link up with the package of glass in the yellow one or mine for instance. spewing now original owner never kept that sticker. could get CofA but its a pretty dumb process these days and not worth doing.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 9 2023, 05:23 PM

Clear glass was standard and the rear glass was always only clear. Windshield tint and side glass tint were different M-code options. A given car might not have had both options.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 05:54 PM

there you go.

------

for you blokes with sigla screens.
another one from the ECA/B research files.
may 74 1.8
pretty beat car, but original in its degraded state.
windscreen is sigla. could be original. who knows?
has CofA but one of the new ones which can't even tell you production date.
does not have tinted glass option listed.
side/rear glass checks out for clear.
sigla screen has different D code to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 sigla screen.
also says S only above AS1. vitamin's says SGG.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=10753 needs to take a close look at his.
are D code numbers same as this one as well as what is written above AS-1.

Posted by: Van B Jan 9 2023, 06:10 PM

Here ya go. Such a shame that I have the crack over the passenger defroster on my front glass.


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 06:12 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011



i think we might be on to something?

like there is runs of cars with sigla as supplier.
then other runs of cars with the kinonglas.

def a pattern here.

Posted by: BR9 Jan 9 2023, 06:19 PM

What about my rare Mexican front windshield?




Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 06:36 PM

now there is another whole can of worms.
replacement screens.
sure you wanna open up that pandora's box?

although it is interesting as a whole other discussion about the way manufacture shifted from the so-called western world from the late 80s on.
all the euros first went and shifted their factories into poland and other former communist euro countries and then shifted it again to china.
the story of our industrial decline bit by bit.
we used to get australian made screens for all our cars down here.
huge industry. now all gone and all the expertise that went with it along with the machinery. (we are gonna regret it i say?).

but back to the topic.
factory screens.
so far it looks like its either SIGLA or KINONGLAS.
and maybe date of production of car decided which?

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 06:44 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 and @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893

that DOT 25 number on your screen is still on the current DOT list today.
they still exist as SIGLA or flachglas as its called.

whereas DOT 31 for kinonglas no longer appears. company is kaput, or absorbed into SEKURIT german gmbh these days.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 9 2023, 08:11 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

I have no idea what the original engine was. I was always under the assumption it was a 2.0... It was removed and reworked into a Weber carbed 2.4 L displacement by a California engine builder. This is the way I purchased it from the PO. I will look at the paperwork to see if there is any mention the original displacement. The badge on the back says 2.0 but that is meaningless because it has been repainted. I will go around and take some photos of the tempered trademarks.

I just turned 9 years old when the car was built, but I do remember it was the start of the oil embargo crisis and there were all sorts of issues getting building materials as my parents were having a home built. Could it be there were issues getting glass from one supplier and another, Sigla was brought in? It would be odd to have two different OEM glass makers tool up for the same part. Or Kinonglas didn't have the capacity for peak production of the 914? I wonder what was in the 75 and 76s?

Posted by: sb914 Jan 9 2023, 08:13 PM

4 pages ?
Sorry I can’t help myself…
Continue on ….

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 08:19 PM

probably is a 2.0 - its right on that borderline.

i was 13 when mine was made. must be 4 years older than you.
born in 1960.

so far the few 75s and 76s i dug out of BAT are kinonglas.
i had a bit of 75 1.8 material on file from the 74 engine research.
and a few nice examples of some 73s. we were chasing the collection of engine stamp numbers either side of 74. those 73s had kinonglas.

could be a bit of old fashioned german industrial bargaining?
VW doing a bit of arm wrestling. maybe kinonglas put up their prices, so VW got an order from competition to keep em honest. that sort of thing used to go on.
fair bit of industrial unrest in germany at that time as well as fuel crisis.
one of those VW heads got into a fair bit of trouble with the unions and it caused his head to roll. might have been slightly earlier than 74 when that happened. but there was a bit of turmoil. so who knows.

it is interesting that your car is very close to starbears on production date.
as well as Van B's. so i would not be inclined to dismiss the sigla screens.
especially in the case of starbear. he drove his out of the showroom so unless he has had a memory fade, which is unlikely, thats the way it came.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 9 2023, 08:25 PM

i don't want to be rude.
but.....don't read it if you are not interested.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 9 2023, 08:31 PM

Hey, yeah it is boring glass... was an occupational hazard for me. No one is making you read it.

Be happy it ain't a thread about engine oil, gear box oil, tires or batteries... or who belongs to a spotted car

Posted by: dgw Jan 9 2023, 10:33 PM

I think this thread is hilarious. I like to read the BAT auctions for 356's. Those guys are anal but entertaining. You guys are having fun with glass and interesting and entertaining. One can always learn something new about Porsches from threads like this.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2023, 12:09 AM

yeah
we are just having fun.
i go nowhere near concourses and all that.
in fact i got a pm from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=346 this morning, the guy who started this thread, delighted with our meanderings. he started all this with a perfectly reasonable question,
he wanted to reproduce a sticker for his windscreen and restoration. and of course, there is no right answer. but he is enjoying the info. if it helps him make a repro sticker well its a good thing. isn't it. we are just all out to have fun preserving and restoring cars - or as the case may be totally modifying them into monsters. all good

and sh#t i've just learned heaps from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 about glass and windscreens i can take into everyday up to the minute purchases of screens for my other cars which are still newish and contemporary. fricken pricelss.

but @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 in his meticulous and careful way asked a few pages back the right question, linking DOT 31 to a manufacturer. can it be done.
well i've looked and looked and i can't reach far enough back in time to do that.
its just not there in the digital files of the Dept. of Transport USA.
but i can find a current list.
and i just cracked something with it that Jeff wants to know.

so DOT 31 is unfindable.

but DOT 25 still exists.

and i notice its on all the SIGLA screens.
but i wasn't looking hard enough at the side windows. pardon my lack of observation Jeff.
they are also DOT 25.

that means same manufacturer.
DOT 25 is flachglas Automotive GMBH germany.
still exists.
company website shows history.
they made the SIGLA windscreens. company history says so along with DOT number.
but obviously they also made the DELODUR side windows.
so the writing on those makes sense now.
DELODUR is made by flachglass (makers of SIGLA brand windscreens) and the DELODUR is a process or toughening technique patented by SEKURIT. in this case licensed from SEKURIT. so the LIZ. SEKURIT is clear in its meaning now.

so you have sigla windscreen and DELODUR side glass you have a car where all the glass came from Flachglass. SIGLA screens fitted to 914s makes perfect sense.

you have a Kristall screen made by Kinonglas - is a combination of glass from two companies. the windscreen from Kinonglas, side glass from flachglas.
at some point Kinonglas was sold to ST. GOBAIN/SEKURIT and disappeared from existence.
after 914 production finished. DOT 31 disappeared with it from the records.
probably if you looked around in a physical archive in DOT you might find an ancient list.
but who cares.

here is the current DOT list you can dig up.




and here is a bonus for @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .
came up randomly in one of my searches.
stuff that comes up i have no idea how it appears or how to back track it into some bigger DOT archived.
but its actually correspondence between SEKURIT and the DOT with an inquiry about just what they have to print on the windscreens and it dates from 1973.
more precisely the company is SEKURIT GLAS UNION GMBH.
its very clear too its referring to Kinonglas Kristall.
so in some way Kinonglas is hooked up to SEKURIT at that point in some kind of association or sub company.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 10 2023, 07:34 AM

Absolutely fun. That is exactly why we are all here on this forum with our lovely little 914s on the driveway (or on jack stands) !!!

Poo poo to the naysayers...


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231

I looked at my 914s last night... Some interesting observations.

The 74 that has the Sigla w/s has DOT 25 (DELODUR) tempered glass all around. I think it is safe to say all 914s have this supplier (DOT 25) for all tempered parts. Then there are variations DELODUR -1 / - F / -1F. Not sure if we will ever figure that out.
What we should be doing is looking at the M number. That is recorded somewhere. Either at the manufacturer (for sure), but I would think they had to be submitted to the DOT, or the NHTSA for safety compliance. Question is, who could be asked to dig up 50+ year old records...? I'm sure they must still exist in a filing cabinet somewhere...

The 74 has M173 (-F) on the sides. This is the tinted glass EXCEPT for the left side large door glass, it has M202 (-1F). To me that means it has been replaced somewhere in time. M202 would be a different piece of glass - likely either the tint composition / raw glass supplier or the thickness. The back window is M93 (clear glass).

On the 73, the tempered glass is M93 all around meaning it is all clear glass.

So the takeaway for me is you could order heat protection glass for the windshield, side glass (M173 or M202 for tint and M93 for clear) or a combination, but the back glass was always clear M93 (M930 with a heating grid).

Posted by: StarBear Jan 10 2023, 08:07 AM

Indeed. As we say “ mostly harmless”, though my wife adds “amusing” as she rolls her eyes…..

Posted by: StarBear Jan 10 2023, 08:12 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231
Yes, those are the same sub-markings as on mine:
SGG
-AS1
Exact match, though mine is fainter and doesn’t show up when backing paper used. Might try a colored (red?) piece of paper.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Jan 10 2023, 02:15 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 Unfortunately my windshield was replaced many years ago. All my other glass is orginal though.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2023, 02:34 PM

some more trivia you don't have to read

SEKURIT.

patented process for making toughened glass.
process developed by Saint Gobain and licensed out to other glass works.

in the case of 914s St. Gobain licensed SEKURIT process to Flachglas GMBH who branded the product as Delodur.

Later on Saint Gobain morph the name SEKURIT into a brand that covers their automotive glass division.




re SIGLA screens also made by Flachglass.

S = sheet glass. thats the clear version. two layers of normal uncoloured sheet glass, virtually clear glass.

SGG = sheet green green. ie two layers of green coloured sheet glass. thats the "tinted" version.

the SGG is the one all the early 911 guys want because its the very greenish windscreen they covet.

seems to indicate that Flachglas was making their screens from plate glass stock (aka sheet glass).
whereas Kinonglas were making theirs from float glass stock (at least from 74 on).
the more modern way to make a flat piece of glass. earlier kinonglas windscreens use the S abbreviation like sigla do. later (approx 74 on) ones use the F.

i won't be digging into earlier than 74.
only interested in 74 1.8s.
anyone else wants to know what goes in earlier cars can do their own searching if they care about getting into windscreen fetishes.
but i did discover the early 911 guys are getting vintage screens re made by pilkington who now own the SIGLA trademark (brand), Pilkington will make you a replacement reproduction screen. you got to put your money down, all of it prepaid, with no return or order cancellation, wait three months and you get one. don't ask how much, you don't want to know. but if you think vintage tyres are expensive. mere pennies.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2023, 02:49 PM

you are dead right @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893 .
DOT 25 - all that comes from flachglas gmbh.
they do all the toughened (tempered for Jeff) glass.
branded as delodur.

and also the sigla windscreen you have. DOT 25.
you have a full flachglas car mate. pure breed. it would be all original glass that one.

i've got the factory cross bred mongrel.
with the DOT 31 windscreen. kinonglas.
swallowed up and disappeared a long time ago into the Saint Gobain empire of world domination. that company must have no cheese eating surrender monkeys on the payroll.

EDIT
ps your one piece of 1F sideglass is the glass they started using in 76 for tinted instead of F. supercedes the F i think. so its had a broken window down the line and the replacement glass has probably come from porsche as the new part.

yes on the "tinted" windscreens too being properly described as heat protected.
the SIGLA looks like it did it with both laminations being a green glass. SGG
the KINONGLAS did it with only the outer lamination being IRA (infra red absorbing) glass. FIRA/F.
clear versions of the windscreen are notated with an S for Sigla and with F/F for Kinonglass. i have to get my F/F out in the sunlight to see the colour. think its a kind of bluish grey rather than ultra clear - so even the "clear" or standard kinonglass one is kind of darkened. but hey i am probably color blind.

Posted by: Van B Jan 10 2023, 06:49 PM

Now does sekurit still make replacement glass? That’s the question!

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2023, 06:51 PM

a titbit at the end for the front badge conscious.

strange triangle mark on SIGLA windscreens,
looks like a british standards safety kite mark,
isn't.
its the porsche logo that porsche had imprinted on all factory installed glass.
never realised it until now. don't know if any other nerds here had ever picked up on this totally useless bit of information. its pretty unique to the glass. don't reckon i have seen this elsewhere on 911s.

its a stylised P inside the triangle.

from @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 's screen.



from a 70s 911 rear glass. there on that.
and its on all the SEKURIT side glass of 911s.



from a 70s 911 with a sudglas screen, not even made by same company as SIGLA.
completely disassociated manufacturer but a factory supplier for small numbers of 911s screens.
there it is.




everybody else who had their logos on their siglas.

VW



MERCEDES




------

the lucky bastards with the SIGLA screens have got 1% more porsche in their VW porsches than us guys who missed out and copped the VW branded kinonglas.

Posted by: Van B Jan 10 2023, 06:57 PM

Wonkipop. That logo is all over porsche parts. I laughed when I bought 991 control arms. They were made by TRW but each one had a conspicuous little grind mark… which was the aforementioned logo. So, thats the difference between an OE and TRW control arm… about one gram lol!

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2023, 06:57 PM

i've got a windscreen from 92 in a box thats genuine porsche.
but you will have to find out who makes that or made that then until i have someone help me get it out without breaking it.

will at least tell you who was making the screens 15 years later for spare parts.
dunno if you can still get side glass from porsche. probably NLA.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 10 2023, 06:59 PM

right. i don't know enough about porsches. i have not spotted that logo anywhere else on the 914. (and don't own a 911) maybe its there engraved into things i just have not spotted on my car. most of the stuff i have pulled out like the little flywheel washer etc have been stamped VW.

just had a quick look through some of the more accessible bits of the stash.
pretty amazing how many parts don't have the P.
front tits. no P
front indicator buckets. no P
but an early steering wheel i have - i noticed it there. tiny.
would never have looked twice at it.
i just went on their website here and i see its their big claim - any genuine part will be stamped with it. the tits and the indicator buckets are genuine in boxes from 30 years ago.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 10 2023, 08:34 PM

How is Kinonglas pronounced (phonetically)?

Kai-non-glahs?
Kihn-on-glass?
Koi-non-glahs?
Keen-un-glass?

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 10 2023, 08:51 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

Kee-non-klaas

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 11 2023, 05:30 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 just looked through your option code list on your website mr. b

great list - despite your apologies for missing data.
https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/OpEq.htm


4 windscreen and side glass option codes.
might explain SIGLA screen v k-klass screens?
but can't link up specifics to the M codes.
def enough option listings to explain existence of both sigla and k-glass in 914s from factory.
maybe not random supply chain stock but rather deliberate option (and standard) selections?


M089 tinted glass.

noted as standard on 71 914/6 and 73/74 2.0 (some gaps in data for years as you note).


M568. green tinted side glass.

this 5 series number is listed on your 400 series group. is it a typo and its 468?
you have an X marked in the table for 74 2.0 and 1.8 but no other years.
(not sure what you indicate by the X.)
curious description = green.


M567. lam tinted windscreen.

optional for 71 914/6 and /4, 73-75 2.0 and 1.7/1.8. no data for some other years.
but 73 and 75 seem to get same.


M568 lam tinted side glass.

available as per M567.
reference to lam tinted probably incorrect? likely toughened?
normally you cannot expose the edge of laminated glass, the interlayer will fail.
makes no sense as practical application - also we have not come across any?
just option F code toughened side glass (delodur).


thinking SIGLA screen might be the M089 option?
appears early in the option number codes and was around in 911s of that exact time.
its the green screen 911 guys want these days for their restorations.

maybe why you get these sigla screens appearing alongside k-glass in the 74 cars we have looked at. if your table is right, 74 2.0s had one of those "tinted" screens standard (sigla green?) and one was an option (k-glas infra red). or other way around.
and for 1.8s a clear screen was standard (either sigla clear or k-glass clear) and it looks like you could get either of 2 tinted screens as an option?

what i am seeing is that 74 2.0s all had a tinted screen in our small selection of data.
one or the other (sigla or k-klass). but have not come across a clear.
found clear of either type in 1.8s and options for either type tinted in 1.8s.
have not gone into other years much except for 75 and 76 2.0s. but all are tinted screens i have found.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jan 11 2023, 05:56 PM

I reviewed that page too the other day and have the same issues/questions. That webpage was developed based on english language versions of printed Euro brochures by model year which included the optional equipment offerings for that year, price lists that used those same words on the webpage to describe the item and pricing.

The description wording is quirky and thet M568 item is listed 2x. Id est quod est.

I dont have the reference brochures anymore or cannot seem find them easily.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 11 2023, 06:25 PM

doesn't matter i think because its priceless information good enough to crack the PET page Jeff.



3 windscreens with same part # and only 2 for USA but specific about which models.

M 089 is the first one on your list. its got to be the 6s and the 2.0s got the green sigla screen (SGG) as standard. its not really tinted. we think of it as tinted but its just darker green glass.

the standard clear glass screen is not an option so never appears on M list.
is the second one on the PET list with the same part #.
could be either a sigla clear (S) or k-klass clear (F/F). standard on all smaller 4s.
agrees with PET description.

third one with same part number is toughened. we have never seen one.
never be on a USA car. (and if 914s had ever been sold in AUS, then AUS would have been on the exclusion list too). not sure what brand. you would have to sight one to ever find out.

fourth one with the different part # described specifically as heat absorbing glass is the IRA screens we are seeing. that is heat absorbing glass. by kinonglas.
be either IRA/S or IRA/F or FIRA/F depending on year.
thats the screen you could option up for any car in any year.
there is a 6 with one on this thread back at page 2 or so.


@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=346 asked a good question i think.
because if you were doing a resto you wanted to be accurate, you would never fit a "clear" screen to a 2.0 or a 6 if you were after accuracy. they never had them by the looks of things. probably if you are doing a 6 and you wanted to be right on the money (and they are worth enough these days) you would be doing the same thing as the 911 guys and going after one of those green sigla screens.
so if you are going to make a stencil and you can bothered going to all that trouble you may as well get it right rather than fake history and getting it completely wrong.

or just as legitimately, don't even worry about it and just keep improving the car.

PS to clarify what i mean by a "clear" screen.
what americans think of as tinted is not the same as the germans.
they did not really call it tinted in technical terms - like for the PET.
a green sigla screen is clear for the sake of PET but described as tinted in options.
a less coloured sigla or kinon is clear for the sake of PET also.

and a heat absorbing screen isn't really tinted either but its described that way in options list. they don't seem to use the technical terms for the showroom option descriptions.

hence you get confusion. and there appears to be two different so called tinted types.
but whats going on is that the 6s and 2.0s are getting those classic sigla green screens as standard equipment in my humble opinion. but the lower down the food chain small 4s are getting the "ungreen" screens as standard. and its being described in the PET that way. and if you ticked a box for tinted in the USA in those later years you likely got upscaled to the IRA screen.

Posted by: davep Jan 16 2023, 07:26 AM

There has been some great work done here guys, many thanks.
To clear up the M options for tinted glass, there were only 2.
M567 for tinted windscreen
M568 for tinted windscreen and side glass
The clerks preparing the CoA/PPS have an incorrect crib sheet for M568 and you often see it as side glass only or tinted glass all around. The latter is the description for the 911/912 that does have a tinted rear window. As stated previously, the 914 rear glass did not have a tinted option.
M089 for windscreen in clear laminated glass (Windschutzscheibe in Verbundglas) not in conjunction with M567 or M568
Basically 3 windscreen options:
914 541 101 10 windscreen in clear laminated glass for all models North America & Sweden, available elsewhere as option M089
914 541 101 20 windscreen in tinted laminated glass for all models North America & Sweden, available as option M567 or part of option M568
914 541 105 10 windscreen in clear tempered glass for all models, except in North America & Sweden
Note there is a typo in the PET diagram where they have 101 instead of 105 for clear tempered glass.
Also, the options choices mean that to get tinted side glass it came in conjunction with a tinted windscreen, or you had to purchase as spare parts and install yourself.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 17 2023, 06:23 AM

condensed version over in originality section.
just data without wandering/waffling.
incorporating and adhering to verdict from dave p.

but we had to wander to get back on the narrow path?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=363328

Posted by: L-Jet914 Jan 18 2023, 01:01 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 I went out to the ol 74 1.8. All of my glass is Delodur-1 clear if that helps the data collection. My front windshield (windscreen) is aftermarket DOT 177 M3 (L-N Safety Glass S.A.DE C.V. OF MEXICALI, now owned by Pilkington Glass it seems)

Posted by: nordfisch Jan 22 2023, 02:27 PM

Hi, here is what the 'squiggle wave' means

(from " Ordinance on the testing and approval of the design of vehicle parts and their marking (Vehicle Parts Ordinance - FzTV) " (Germany, translated)
.
.
.
" § 7 test marks
(1) The test mark consists of a wavy line of three periods, one or two code letters, a number and, if necessary, additional characters. The code letter designates the type of vehicle parts according to the following list:

D
for safety glass and films for application to vehicle windows
E
for tachographs
f
for overrun brakes and parts thereof
G
(dropped out)
K
for lighting equipment
L
for anti-skid devices
M
for vehicle connection devices
R
for tires
S
for heaters
W
for warning devices with a sequence of sounds of different fundamental frequencies (operational horn).

If vehicle parts from two different types are approved together, the test mark contains both code letters. The test mark is assigned by the Federal Motor Transport Authority based on the model in Appendix 3.
(2) If the approval procedure has been carried out under conditions that the Federal Republic of Germany has agreed with other states, a test mark must be assigned for the relevant vehicle part. This vehicle part must not be approved by another contracting party on the basis of the same conditions, nor may it have been assigned a test mark. The test mark consists of a circle containing the letter 'E' and the code 1 for the Federal Republic of Germany, as well as the approval number. The latter must be placed outside the circle. Otherwise, the Federal Motor Transport Authority determines on the basis of international agreements how the test mark is to be arranged. It supplements the test mark in compliance with international agreements if this is necessary to avoid misunderstandings.
(3) Test marks that were assigned prior to November 19, 1998 on the basis of type approvals and contain code letters in accordance with Appendix 2 Part 2 may continue to be applied until the respective type approval expires and remain valid unchanged; this also applies to the distinguishing letter E for tachographs, checked by the North Rhine-Westphalia State Calibration Directorate in Cologne.
(4) The assigned test mark must be affixed to each part of the vehicle corresponding to the approved type in the prescribed arrangement in a legible, permanent and identifiable manner at any time; this also applies to the vehicle part attached or installed in accordance with the type approval."

Regards
Norbert

edit: list of test centers added
Annex 2 Part 1 (to Section 5 Paragraph 1 Sentence 2 Nos. 1 and 2, Section 7 Paragraph 3)
Responsible test centers for certain vehicle parts and their previously assigned code letters
Source of the original text: Federal Law Gazette I 1998, 2153


Previously assigned code letter
testing center
part type for which the testing centers were previously responsible
D
Materialprüfungsamt
-
Sicherheitsglas including films for application to vehicle windows
North Rhine-Westphalia
44285 Dortmund
E
TÜV NORD Mobility GmbH & Co. KG
-
Tachograph
IFM - Institute for Vehicle Technology and Mobility
At TÜV 1
30519 Hanover
F
RWTÜV Fahrzeug GmbH
-
Overrun brakes
Adlerstraße 7
-
Facilities for connecting vehicles
45307 food
G
State Material Testing Institute at the University of Stuttgart
-
Seat belts
-
Restraint devices for children in motor vehicles
PO Box 80 11 40
70511 Stuttgart
K
Light Technology Institute of the University of Karlsruhe Test center for light technology equipment on vehicles
-
light technology equipment
Kaiserstrasse 12
76128 Karlsruhe
L
Examination commission for anti-skid devices at the Federal Motor Transport Authority
-
Anti-skid devices
24932 Flensburg
M
TÜV AUTOMOTIVE GMBH Group of companies TÜV Süddeutschland area Munich
-
Facilities for connecting vehicles
-
Overrun brakes
Daimlerstraße 11
-
Warning devices with a sequence of sounds of different basic frequencies - emergency horn
85748 Garching
N
DEKRA Type Testing Center/ Technical Service of DEKRA Automobil AG
-
Heaters
-
Skid protection devices
-
Panes made of safety glass
Bernhardstrasse 62
-
Overrun brakes
01187 Dresden
-
Facilities for connecting vehicles

-
Warning devices with a sequence of sounds of different basic frequencies - emergency horn

-
Seat belts

-
Child restraint systems in motor vehicles

-
Tachographs and control devices
S
testing center for vehicle parts in the research institute for automotive engineering and vehicle engines
-
heaters
Pfaffenwaldring 12
70569 Stuttgart
Unofficial table of contents
Annex 2 Part 2 (to Article 7 Paragraph 3)
Code letters that are no longer assigned
(Source: BGBl. I 1998, 2154)

code letter that is still valid and is no longer assigned
testing station
part type for which the testing station was responsible; Reason for waiving jurisdiction
A
Technical test center for motor vehicle traffic of TÜV Berlin-Brandenburg e.V.
Sidecars of motorcycles;
T
all other technical test centers for motor vehicle traffic
sidecars no longer have to be of officially approved type according to § 22a paragraph 1 StVZO.
B
Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt in Braunschweig
tachograph; Responsibility was transferred to the State Calibration Directorate of North Rhine-Westphalia (code letter E).
C
Technical test center for motor vehicle traffic at the Technical University of Berlin in Berlin-Charlottenburg
- heaters
- Overrun brakes
- Devices for connecting vehicles;
Takeover by DEKRA e.V.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 22 2023, 03:29 PM

thank you
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=19451

Posted by: fixer34 Jan 22 2023, 04:31 PM

OK, finally went out and took a picture of mine. March 1970 -6. Original glass unless it was replaced 45+ years ago.

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 23 2023, 03:58 AM

ripper mate
thanks for posting that.
the old time machine.
you get to go to year zero over in the originality thread.

Posted by: zoomCat Jan 29 2023, 01:40 PM

Stoddard is selling Porsche branded windscreens, with a modern brand. I’m restoring a six, but I’m not sure if it’s really much of an improvement over the XYG aftermarket that’s a third the price.

Posted by: scallyk9 Jan 29 2023, 02:31 PM

My last replacement was sourced from my local Porsche dealer and is identical to the Pilkington one that zoomCat has pictured from Stoddard. The price was $599.00 but considering that shipping was free, I found it a good value as the Porsche Classic Parts replacement.

Posted by: vitamin914 Jan 29 2023, 02:42 PM

Intersting find!!!

The Pilkington glass is made in St Helens, England, XYG is made in Hong Kong, China.

That would explain the price difference. Quality - well that would require direct comparisons.

What I do find interesting is the Porsche branding. From what @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24231 said, it only appears on Porsche certified parts. I don't think you can put that on without their blessing. To get approval for use of that mark, I would think that Porsche certified the glass to meet specifications for bend, form and size. I am certain Porsche still has the blueprints on file for that part. If Pilkington just cloned that mark not knowing what it was, well, thats a different story.

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread how companies make replacement glass that they were never OEM tooled for.
They go out and buy a piece of glass from someone. Ideally it is made by the OEM, but that is not always the case. From that piece of glass they make a mold to represent the shape and size and build the tooling from that. If that sample glass is out on size or bend, then so will anything they make. Glass can flex so we did make compensations for any twists or non symmetries that we found - if it looked like it was out a bit. Like I said a photocopy of a photocopy of a photo copy. There are few if any OEM w/s kicking around to make an accurate copy of these days for the 914.

When we were making replacement glass, accuracy was not that critical as it was made to a sample of god know what quality. Bob at the local auto glass could fiddle with it to make fit. OEM was more demanding since they would not tolerate stuff like that on the production line. Thats why they have tolerances to meet. Bob doesn't have those tolerances.

If that is a legit licensed use of the Porsche parts logo, it should be made to OEM data from Porsche - if I correctly understood the use of that logo. XYG will only have made theirs on the basis of a piece of glass they found.

I have a replacement w/s in the box from the Porsche dealer... I will need to check if I have that logo on mine...

Posted by: wonkipop Jan 29 2023, 02:58 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=25893
when i was digging around on this topic i found information that said pilkington took over the SIGLA brand. i think they purchased Flachglass gmbh who made SIGLA screens in a company takeover and then disbanded or divested themselves from it a little later but retained the copyright on the SIGLA branding. presumably they also kept all moulds, drawings etc.

basically that pilkington screen is a SIGLA screen more or less.'
why porsche still use them for the parts.

is it better than XYG. probably. is it worth 3 times as much. probably not?

if you own an early 911 and really want to get your wallet emptied pilkington do another trick. they will actually produce you a reproduction SIGLA brand screen, green glass and all. with period correct etching. though i think there is something about the E in a circle mark, it has to be there. so its not 100%

we were all just having fun with this thread but i did find the mercedes guys who restore pagodas and other such m b exotica from the 60s will pay a fortune to get hold of a correct vintage screen for one. i don't think the 914 world has gone that insane but i wouldn't be surprised with 914/6s if it went that way at some point. its all about how much the car is worth.

Posted by: CCE Jul 27 2023, 06:52 PM

Just got my front screen, from my local Porsche dealer in Mexico City, yesterday.

Thanks PORSCHE, not an easy part to source here for my 914.

Posted by: 914werke Jul 27 2023, 07:18 PM

Ive still got one of those boxes.

Posted by: dgw Jul 27 2023, 08:22 PM

Probably of little value to this thread. I just checked my recently acquired 71 914/6 and the windshield has no marking at all. i have most of the service receipts so i can check to see if the glass replacement is noted on one of them. The receipts do confirm that it has 66,000 + original miles on it so there may be one about glass replacement. The car has been repainted once so that may be when the windshield was replaced.