We know of two docmented original 914s, both have side valances attached with plastic buttonhead rivets, not aluminum rivets.
Black rivets for cars with black valances
Clear rivets for the 1974 LE cars with the yellow or orange valances
PET also only lists the plastic button head rivets.
All the photos of 914s with aluminum rivets are not original, are commonly available and have been replaced at some point.
Thanks to George Hussey, Steve Gaglione (2nd owner of very orignal Sahara Beige) and Alberto Favilla (original owner) and to Rich Daunhauer (914Werke) for their knowledge.
Yay! Thanks, Jeff!
That seems premature and arbitrary to make an absolute statement like that. I’m not looking to be argumentative, but the sample size seems small and leaves no room for the variances that have been observed. Have you surveyed the production numbers to see if there are any groupings with the ‘non original’ rivets or is it just random? Is the PET contemporaneous with the models in question, or is it a recent publication?
It would seem appropriate to survey the members of this group to see if there are any consistent variances. I’m not an expert on 914 originality but I’ve been active in the old car community for over 35 years and have observed many instances of settled pronouncements that have been disproved. I’m not saying you’re wrong; but I’m concerned about the process in light of contrary evidence.
Disclaimer: I own a low mileage ‘74 2.0 LE with a preponderance of original features that has the ‘non-original’ aluminum rivets.
The Group 8 Shop Manual calls them out as plastic expanding rivets, so I didn't realize there was a debate. My 75 had aluminum rivets but it's such a Frankenstein, I was surprised they didn't use machine screws.
My 75 1.8 32k car had black plastic rivets on all positions.
I thought they had been replaced because I didn't think Porsche was that cheap!
I was wrong...
Black plastic on mine and I believe I'm the first guy to actually do any wrenching on my car.
I'm positive I'm the first person to remove the rear taillights housings as well.
All the hardware was there and in perfect shape: cad plating still perfect.
Only a single scratch on the electronic spade connectors.
It's nice to take apart a 48-year-old car and find no molestation at all.
It's never happened to me before. Everything older than 30 is usually super molested.
And into the fray we go...
1970 factory -6, silver scuff panels and black valences. Black plastic 'expanding' rivets on both.
yes - plenty of examples of 75 in my L jet files with the black rivets on the rockers.
can't argue with that i think when it comes to those.
also fairly common thing early on with 914s to get those rockers off and clean behind and check for rust. this was a well recited tip that was almost "law" back in 89 when i bought my 74. so i took my rockers off and cleaned behind there and checked back then. i reckon a lot of cars would have likely been treated to that a long time ago as well.
its too long ago for me to remember what was there, but i would not argue with the proposition the rivets would have been black plastic, pretty much the same as the threshold rivets which are still there and are black.
interesting that so many 75s are still intact, and nothing on file i have for 74s are black.
all alum. but thats not proof of anything.
thanks mr. b
i know @http://email@example.com has a low miles very original white 74 1.8 in his collection, so that would be a trustworthy example if its got the black rivets.
i just realised one of the examples you pointed to as an original car is steve g's 2.0
interestingly those are not original sill rivets.
he restored it to what he was told was original.
and here is what he had to say about it.
its in the thread on the car in originality section.
now i'm not saying steve g is right.
or that the sills had not been removed on his car before he got it.
or that it was not a highly original car.
or that he was mistaken about his memory of his car he bought new.
but the rivets are not original by his own admission.
and its on dr. 914s authority he changed them.
and dr 914 knows heaps for sure.
but he is not always 100% correct.
for instance the business about the vacuum hoses tucked under the plenum of 74 1.8s
dr 914 says all 1.8s after jan 74.
not true as we discovered.
nothing to do with a production change.
instead it was to do with 49 state cars v californian cars.
i've got an open mind - not going one way or another.
but i want to see more evidence.
re the creamsicle rockers.
how do we know those rockers have never been off.
with so many myths about what is correct on a 914, those rockers could have been taken off and replaced with the clear rivets of the earlier cars based on an authority view?
just being an open minded sceptic at this stage.
but i would like to know. for sure. what is meant to be there.
i hate to throw another worm in the can of doubt when it comes to 74s and rivets.
from low miles orig condition 74 1.8 held by dr. 914 in his collection.
fab photo documentation from your website @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 (your photos mr. b?).
alum rivets looks to me?
could be a trick of the light. dr 914 could confirm?
i concede this one could have had its rocker panels off too.
(they all could?).
which means it ain't so original a yardstick as its said to be.
i'm going to say its just not certain yet on 74s.
i reckon they are black plastic rivets on 75s for sure.
so many i have collected for data on L jets have the black rivets thats got to be the case.
but these alum rivets keep showing up on 74s.
even steve g's extraordinary 74 2.0 had them until he "restored" the sill rivets.
Late cars with black plastic thresholds had black plastic expanding rivets.
The same black rivets were used on black rocker covers.
Early cars with aluminum thresholds had off-white plastic expanding rivets.
All early cars had the same off-white plastic expanding rivet on the black rockers.
Clear plastic expanding rivets were never original on a 914 .....but they may have
been supplied later by Porsche as a repair part.
Aluminum rivets were never original on a 914
Back in the old days original rocker rivets could be removed and re-installed if done
If the rivet was not brittle the center pin can be pushed through and retreived
from below. The rivet could then be lifted out of the panel and later re-installed.
If this method was used on the rivets near the inner door seal the pin of the rivet
would be lost inside the longitudinal.
Way in the past I retrieved many from parts cars and reused them.
No correct replacements for early cars were available in those days.
LE rockers ?
another remarkable 74 from mr. b's website.
not a restored car i believe.
(but doesn't mean the rockers haven't been off.)
hard to really decide if white plastic or alum rivet from lighting in photo.
look alum like lots of other 74s.
i am not saying earlier cars did not have white plastic.
or that later 75 and on did not have black plastic.
but it would appear something else might/could have been happening in 74 at least.
had to say yet.
i wish i had photographed mine 30+ years ago before i took them off.
Mine is definitely as Jeff described in the original post, 100% accurate. Plastic buttons on the threshold and black rivets on the rockers.
Mine are without a doubt original and I was the first person to ever take the outer threshold piece off. Both pieces are plastic.
I know it’s not correct for my year, but I really like the anodized aluminum versions and I’m considering going that route if @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=3348 would sell me black inner trim with an outer silver anodized threshold. Like a mix and match special:)
I usually have these made up in matching sets, but let me check and see on Monday.
I know this is a complete CW thing, & wasn't my intention to
But I recall restoring my car & going down this rabbit hole.
The bad thing about the alum. pop rivets is they actually enlarge the fastening holes over time via rust from galvanic corrosion.
I had to weld & re-drill several so I could use/fit the correct fasteners.
...which leads me to ask.
What should be the hole diameter?
I am a bit surprised by the heated discussion. Back in 1975 when I bought the first of my 914's I never saw aluminum pop rivets used on the rockers. That would have required a drill to remove the rockers again; NOT the factory way of doing things. I also have my paper parts manual for the 1970's along with the service manual set, the Technical bulletins, Flat rate manual, and the paint & interiors book.
Plastic rivets for certain!
With galvanic corrosion, aluminum will lose out over low carbon steel. That’s why bolts going into aluminum engines are zinc plated. Zinc acts as the sacrificial anode giving up its electrons more easily.
Hole diameter is 3.4mm for both threshold and rocker. I just measured for you @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=12023
Thanks Van B!
I have used aluminum with success and I'm sure over time they will fail but is it a big deal?
Mcmaster Carr has plastic rivets, but not 1/8", does anyone have a source for a 1/8" plastic (pop rivet)?
I used to read a lot of threads on the 356 forums, back in the day, and chuckle.
Well, we seem to have arrived.
Who cares? These pieces should have all been removed by now anyways.
Gee I thought liquid nails and duct tape was original. Learnt sumtin new everyday
Are there any current members or people sitting on top of a mountain, who actually worked for Karmann or Porsche in the 70's
Hate to beat a dead horse, BUT - why are there so many 74's with aluminum rivets? If so many people were taking off the side valances, shouldn't we also be seeing some cars with sheet metal screws holding the valances? It would have been a lot easier to use screws and people weren't as concerned about keeping the cars original back in the day? Couldn't the factory have simply used some aluminum rivets at some point when they were running low on plastic rivets, maybe the supplier shipped the wrong rivets to the factory, or the guy bringing the cases of rivets from the warehouse to that part of the factory occasionally grabbing the wrong case of rivets?
My car had painted pop rivets in the rockers and plastic push pin rivets in the plastic thresholds. I don’t think the rivets were aluminum. Chips looked like steel and I definitely was not drilling into the rocker. Also I was definitely the first person to remove them. I could even tell by the ziebart spray patterns that they used a hose to get in there vs remove/reinstall. Had I known this was still a point of curiosity, I would’ve confirmed the rivet details.
The ziebart runs across the underside of the sill and the rocker… pulls apart like a freshness seal, except there’s nothing fresh under there…
I’m honestly not sure what the debate is here since this thread appears to start mid debate. I have black plastic thresholds with black plastic push pin rivets and (had) rocker panels with black metal rivets.
All holes appear ~3.4mm. I measured six of them on both sides of the car.
Anyone who knows anything about these cars removes the side valances to clean and inspect, at least at the time of purchase. 50 years later it’s highly likely that the valences have been removed at least several times, if not more on every car. The few original owners here tell us these rivets were plastic, not alum. George is an authority on these cars, more than anyone else I can think of, and he confirms. Alum rivets or even sheet metal screws are always commonly available and convenient at the local hardware store, only the purists would bother to get the correct plastic rivets from the dealer. The 74s were not special in this detail, it is illogical that this would be a 1 year change. That’s the best rationalization I can think of.
as a comment to @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104 .
now mr b.
you do realise your argument can equally be applied to owners having taken rockers off early on years and year ago and having replaced the rivets with "correct" plastic rivets.
thinking metal rivets were wrong. these cars might have had rockers on and off a half a dozen times in their life up until now. talking 74s here.
S.G. 74 car in originality section is illustrative of that.
there is a car that is held up as the benchmark of originality.
yet the owner admits he restored the rocker panel rivets on the advice of dr. 914.
and those rivets were not on it when he obtained it from the original first owner.
they were metal. and he though they were original. and he states also that he believes the 914 he bought new back in the 70s had metal rivets.
so its a funny one.
dr. 914 is not infallible.
he was incorrect about the distributor vac hose set up on 74 1.8s.
he had it down as a production date change.
on the + side, he is not wrong about much.
Oh man… I really misunderstood what was going on here and the debate. I took it as aluminum vs metal in the rockers.
I somehow missed it that claim was plastic throughout.
My Dads 76 , had Dealer installed... Nardi Steering Wheel, Riviera Wheels and Porsche Rocker Panels,,, The Dealer used Pop Rivets..
Only on the internet
Early salvage parts. Some broken some good.
Shown for color reference.
Second pic shows color difference. White / clear
The larger ones in second pic are from block off plate when no speakers were
fitted in speaker housing......if I remember correctly.
Come on guys - the heater hose discussion went to 6 pages. You’re only 1/2 way.
Only half way there - well let's get going!
An aircraft mechanic friend of mine said it is easy to see when rivets are replaced on a plane - they never looks quite factory. I've noticed that on cars as well - one can often tell when someone has removed and replaced something on a car - it never looks quite factory. Every photo we are seeing of aluminum riveted valances sure looks good - like the factory did it - as opposed to someone trying to put the valance on themselves with a pop-rivet gun in one hand while trying to hold the valance with the other.
My 75 had black aluminum ones.
Well, I should stay the Hell out of this since I've defiled a few 914's.............but FWIW, my one owner 76 had black plastic rivets and my 2 owner 73 had white plastic rivets. Judging by the amount of dirt lodged behind and beneath I'm pretty sure I was the 1st one in there.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)