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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Minilite wheels bolt length question

Posted by: L-Jet914 Mar 15 2023, 08:50 PM

Hello everyone,
I recently purchased Stltri's minilite wheels that have from what I can tell I think they cone seat inserts vs ball seat. I tried a factory alloy lug bolt with sharpie applied on the bolt face and white out applied on the lug seat. The contact patch seems small. Would I still need 38mm length bolts as that is the length of the factory Fuch 2.0L wheel bolts? Judging by the contact patch of bolt face to insert face will the OEM allow wheel bolts work or should I source some cone seat bolts in the same length? Input would be helpful. See attached photos.

Attached image(s)

Posted by: T.Rick6 Mar 16 2023, 07:45 AM

I have a set of Minilite lug bolts available if interested; not sure how much to ask, I do know they are hard to find. I'll get you the measurements this afternoon, stand by...

Todd

Posted by: technicalninja Mar 16 2023, 08:40 AM

The for sale add stated he had the lug holes machined professionally for cone type fasteners.

I prefer shank/washer first. This is probably what he had originally. This style puts no internal spreading force at the lug hole but requires the wheel be hub centric as this style doesn't center the wheel. It's the strongest style of mounting IMO.

My next choice is hemispherical (ball style). This is common for German cars, Porsche has used this style extensively. This style definitely centers the wheels and normally has the greatest contact for a self-centering style lug nut. This is an excellent self-centering attachment style, but both the lug bolts and their mounting seat need to be clean with no damage or debris in it. The later Porche lug bolts (Boxster) have a hemispherical washer and the turning/tightening of the bolt does not require the washer to turn. This is an upgrade to the original solid style in my book.

My third choice is cone style. This centers the wheel but applies the maximum spreading force in the lug hole. If you hammer them in with an impact too far you can split the wheel at the lug hole. This is more likely to happen with wheels that are thinner at the mounting face. A modified wheel (as you have) can be the most critical to mount properly.

I would ONLY use proper cone lug nuts with studs on what you have. I would verify that the cone angle of the lug nuts you acquire matches the cone angle cut into the wheels.

As those wheels have been modified and are very valuable, I would be damned careful with them. I would NEVER let anyone install those wheels but myself. I'd always install by hand and use a torque wrench. No impacts at all for what you have.

I have a set of American Racing "Lemans" style wheels for a 240Z. I've got the real original ones (they have been re-produced recently) and the lug mounting face was so thin that I had to machine a set of shank/washer lug nuts to fit the wheels. They are rare/cool but I will never use them for competition as the alloys and the thickness of the wheel mounting flange has massively improved over the last 50 years. My wheels are from the early 70s...

I would not have had those wheels changed to cone mounting style. I would have purchased or machined lug nuts to make the original style of mounting work.
If they were shank/washer style I would have come up with adapters to achieve hub centric mounting.

Tangerine racing has these available for the 914 rear set up.

https://tangerineracing.com/shop/ols/products/rear-wheel-hub-centering-rings

Sadly, those fit the 4 lug wheels only and I'm changing to 5 lug which have a smaller center bore. I'm not worried about not being hub centric as I'm using Porsche style hemispherical nuts and studs which self center.

I'd be very careful with what you have purchased. They are truly beautiful real Minilites. Copies of Minilites are far more common.

Posted by: T.Rick6 Mar 16 2023, 01:52 PM

Here’s a picture, looks close to 50mm

Attached Image

Posted by: technicalninja Mar 16 2023, 01:55 PM

QUOTE(T.Rick6 @ Mar 16 2023, 02:52 PM)

Here’s a picture, looks close to 50mm

Attached Image

Shank/washer style. Double headed weird shank/washer...
World's smallest shank!

I can see why they had the wheels modified for cones.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Mar 16 2023, 03:44 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Mar 16 2023, 07:40 AM)

The for sale add stated he had the lug holes machined professionally for cone type fasteners.

I prefer shank/washer first. This is probably what he had originally. This style puts no internal spreading force at the lug hole but requires the wheel be hub centric as this style doesn't center the wheel. It's the strongest style of mounting IMO.

My next choice is hemispherical (ball style). This is common for German cars, Porsche has used this style extensively. This style definitely centers the wheels and normally has the greatest contact for a self-centering style lug nut. This is an excellent self-centering attachment style, but both the lug bolts and their mounting seat need to be clean with no damage or debris in it. The later Porsche lug bolts (Boxster) have a hemispherical washer and the turning/tightening of the bolt does not require the washer to turn. This is an upgrade to the original solid style in my book.

My third choice is cone style. This centers the wheel but applies the maximum spreading force in the lug hole. If you hammer them in with an impact too far you can split the wheel at the lug hole. This is more likely to happen with wheels that are thinner at the mounting face. A modified wheel (as you have) can be the most critical to mount properly.

I would ONLY use proper cone lug nuts with studs on what you have. I would verify that the cone angle of the lug nuts you acquire matches the cone angle cut into the wheels.

As those wheels have been modified and are very valuable, I would be damned careful with them. I would NEVER let anyone install those wheels but myself. I'd always install by hand and use a torque wrench. No impacts at all for what you have.

I have a set of American Racing "Lemans" style wheels for a 240Z. I've got the real original ones (they have been re-produced recently) and the lug mounting face was so thin that I had to machine a set of shank/washer lug nuts to fit the wheels. They are rare/cool but I will never use them for competition as the alloys and the thickness of the wheel mounting flange has massively improved over the last 50 years. My wheels are from the early 70s...

I would not have had those wheels changed to cone mounting style. I would have purchased or machined lug nuts to make the original style of mounting work.
If they were shank/washer style I would have come up with adapters to achieve hub centric mounting.

Tangerine racing has these available for the 914 rear set up.

https://tangerineracing.com/shop/ols/products/rear-wheel-hub-centering-rings

Sadly, those fit the 4 lug wheels only and I'm changing to 5 lug which have a smaller center bore. I'm not worried about not being hub centric as I'm using Porsche style hemispherical nuts and studs which self center.

I'd be very careful with what you have purchased. They are truly beautiful real Minilites. Copies of Minilites are far more common.

I was in contact with the PO. He stated that he requested ball seat inserts but they were not available so he opted for the cone seat as that is WSR had. So you would recommend I install wheel studs and then run lug 60 degree lug nuts with these wheels instead of 60 degree conical seat lug bolts. I've always installed wheel lug bolts by hand on this car even when I used the stock steel wheels and torque wheels to spec with my torque wrench. I am used to Toyota shank/washer style lug nuts that I deal with everyday at the dealership I work at (photo attached). I am also surprised to the length Stltri went to refurbish these and have them machined to accept cone seat bolts. I don't think that these Minilites would have the same hub bore diameter as the factory wheel I don't think. Though I have not measured them. Thank you so much for your input @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=27135

Attached image(s)

Posted by: technicalninja Mar 16 2023, 05:30 PM

Yes, studs and nuts are the way to go.
PMB has decent studs and if you install them with red loctite (to the hub only) they will not come out.
Toyota is one of my favorite brands, I recommend Toys over everything else.
I tell my customers Toyotas will survive the "Zombie apocalypse" and the only thing tougher is a Toyota Land Cruiser.
They will survive a direct missile strike...
Japanese tanks have "Land Cruiser" in big block letters on the back!

I've always preferred the way Toyota does lugs. Hub centric with serious shanks and big assed washers. Stupid strong.

Posted by: L-Jet914 Mar 16 2023, 08:37 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Mar 16 2023, 04:30 PM)

Thank you for your input. Aside from the Land Cruisers, the 2.4L Toyota diesel pickup like the one in Top Gear years ago haha.