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Posted by: Type 47 Mar 22 2023, 05:06 PM

Can you just buy a FI setup? Or do you have to resurrect your 50 system that has been in a box for forty years and you know something is wrong with it?

Posted by: JamesM Mar 22 2023, 05:35 PM

yes?

Posted by: r_towle Mar 22 2023, 06:17 PM

There are quite a few packaged kits available now.
I suggest you do some googling , I just found ten options, all a bit different.

Rich

Posted by: 914werke Mar 22 2023, 06:22 PM

imo by the time you buy carbs & associated bits + then tuning you are roughly equal to what ever it will take to resurrect the OE FI. Aftermarket FI kits will be a step up in $ & complexity.

Posted by: mihai914 Mar 22 2023, 06:23 PM

Not sure if you're asking about a stock system or something more modern.

If new, there is this:
https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-fuel-injection-package-with-ignition-t4-914/

PMB is apparently working on a similar kit.

If you want to stick with D-Jet, there are members and vendors that can provide new or rebuilt parts.

Posted by: mepstein Mar 22 2023, 06:29 PM

Eric at PMB Performance has developed a modern FI system for our cars. I would contact him for info.

I think the days of resurrecting an original FI system is moving to a point of no return except for the most determined owners who have to have original systems on their cars.

Posted by: Type 47 Mar 22 2023, 06:46 PM

what's on the car now is a a nice set of 40 IDF Webers that were on the car when I took it apart. We cleaned them and put the rebuild kit stuff on them.

I also have another set of those on a spare 1.8 but they are in need of some TLC.

I have the original FI in a box...I've tested some of the stuff and what i tested was operational. Of course something in the box is bad or the PO would not have swapped it out for the Webers.

I'm not interested in the original FI but some new stuff might be interesting. I'm getting frustrated tuning the Webers.

I'm going to check out some of the info that was posted.

but I'm not starting from scratch. maybe I should just man up and learn how to tune the carbs.

but i'm should investigate the new FI options.

Posted by: BeatNavy Mar 22 2023, 06:57 PM

You'll learn a lot about how an engine operates under different conditions if you go the FI route. It's a good learning experience.

If you have the original FI components, and they are basically serviceable, why not try to get that to work? If not, look at going the aftermarket FI route. But that isn't necessarily cheap or easy.

Posted by: GregAmy Mar 22 2023, 07:01 PM

Not necessarily.

A lot has happened between the mid-70s (when everything was working perfectly) and the recent decade-ish (when we all totally learned about the stock FI and got on board with it.)

In between that was an area of ignorance (no one knew how to work on it) and lack of replacement parts. The result was that any problem, no matter how small or (not) costly, was answered with "toss some Webers on it and be done with it."

Not so much today. This community is well-versed the systems and their problems, and we have aftermarket support in repairs/parts. And we recognize that a properly-functioning stock FI system offers far better driveability and economy than a pair of Webers.

That said...our community has also moved toward significant modifications to the basic engine, for which the stock FI cannot accommodate.

I enjoyed the stock D-Jet on my 2L, and being the tinkerer I am I modified my stock D-Jet with Microsquirt ECU. But if I had to choose between D-Jet and carbs for a stock street car, I'd definitely stick with the DJ.

BTW, I run Dellortos on the race car, because I don't care about driveability or economy. And as much as I do know about them, I find it annoying having to re-jet them for every race weekend. One of these days there's a Microsquirt system for that car...

GA

Posted by: brant Mar 22 2023, 07:07 PM

You can bench test all of the djet components individually

But you do have to learn the system

Same with carbs they are just a different thing to learn

The only one that is brainless is to pay a shop for a complete and expensive system
You don’t have to learn it that way
But you will learn to pay thousands also

Posted by: emerygt350 Mar 22 2023, 07:08 PM

I definitely like djet but it really is limited and eventually it will run into nla on every part (it's almost there). If I had to start from scratch, I would stick with injection but move to a modern setup. PMB would be where I would start. The reason I would go to modern efi is how sensitive these engines are to lean conditions. Why risk dropping seats and burning valves?

Posted by: Type 47 Mar 22 2023, 07:19 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head.

the reason I think there's something wrong in the box is that when I had issues on my 73 1.7 back in the day know one, even the Porsche dealer could give you good options. A lot of components to swap out with each one expensive. Something there was bad but what?

I put some 2bb carb on and it was great. The cool guys put on Webers but I was not worthy (at the time).

I just want something reliable. trying to figure out how to tune the Webers and associated ignition system it seems like its somewhat fragile and needing frequent adjustments.

I did love the FI turn the key and start from the 1.7 but it only lasted a year or so before is went south.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 22 2023, 07:20 PM

I’ve been following your other thread so I definitely sense this question is being asked out of frustration. I can appreciate why you are frustrated. Tuning carbs is not hard but it takes a methodical, patient approach.

Going to FI will not be the quick fix you’re wanting.

A DIY fuel injection system has a learning curve that is MUCH steeper than learning how to tune dual Webers. If you out source the fuel injection install and tuning you will be looking at a solution that leans toward $5k or more.

I wish there were an easy DIY fool proof turn key system but it does not exist yet.

The dual Weber setup is not fragile at all. I put over 100k miles on the exact set up you have including the 009 distributor that was thought to be “the” solution in the 80s.

Put in the time to learn how to dial in the Webers. You need that baseline knowledge of tuning (rich, lean, transition, ignition advance) to be able to tune Fi anyway.

You have guys trying to help that know how to tune and you are getting good advice. Just need to buckle down, be methodical and work your way through.

Posted by: Type 47 Mar 22 2023, 07:28 PM

Yeah, while this is what I was asking for i'm sure I can find a solution for less than what just the parts cost at $4,100.

I have 2 sets of 40 IDF Webers and the original, i believe L-jet FI.

Throwing that in the trash and ponying up for a 4 grand plus installation expense is probably not an option.

Posted by: Type 47 Mar 22 2023, 07:36 PM

Thank You.

Thank you so much for your encouragement. This is the answer I was looking for.

Thank you and everyone who is trying to help me.

Please be patient with me.

my son was busy today so i tried to work on it a bit today. Which was a good thing. He screwed up what was a good running car somehow. It was running OK today but would not idle. I tried to incrementally make adjustments, but ended up thinking I needed to to do some more research.

I've got a lot of good info, but am struggling to understand it.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 22 2023, 07:47 PM

There is a lot to learn if you’ve never done it before - but you can learn it and the guys here want to help and want to see you succeed.

If this is your first rodeo (sounds like it is) you might want to just hit pause for a day or two. Spend a few days on YouTube and learn more about IDFs and how they work and get two or three perspectives on tuning them. CB Performance also has some good basic setup advice on their site.

The main thing is being willing to put in the time to do the iterative tweaking. The first time I did it, it was awful. But once you learn how to make small changes and listen to how the engine responds, it just gets easier and easier and you’ll be proficient before you know it.

Posted by: bkrantz Mar 22 2023, 08:25 PM

Mario's kit at the Dub Shop will get you 99% there in terms of hardware and 80% or more in terms of tune.

Posted by: gnomefabtech Mar 22 2023, 09:26 PM

Any modern aftermarket ECU will be leaps and bounds better than the laptop sized ecu in our cars. A megasquirt or whatever will run great using the stock D Jet hardware with the addition of modern sensors. I haven't done this yet but I think a simple setup with just throttle position, manifold vacuum, engine temp, and ignition map would make for a D-Jet looking engine that would run really well. Not exactly sure how to get a crank trigger wheel on there though.

Posted by: GeorgeKopf Mar 22 2023, 09:45 PM

I have been looking at the SDS EM-5.

http://www.sdsefi.com/specific.html

They have three options:
D (fuel injection only) $1125 (4 cylinder)
E (fuel injection and ignition control) $1348 (4 cylinder)
F (fuel injection and direct fire ignition) $1654 (4 cylinder)

You will still need:
Fuel injectors
Fuel pressure regulator
Fuel rail
Fuel pump
Fuel return line from regulator to fuel tank
Throttle body

I'm nowhere near working on my engine but when I get there, I'm going to seriously consider SDS.

George

Posted by: r_towle Mar 22 2023, 09:49 PM

Have you considered getting a base tune setup for you?

This is one place that may be helpful.

https://m.facebook.com/100063462346287/

Posted by: GregAmy Mar 23 2023, 05:58 AM

I have...see my sig... Prego, it's in there...and you can do it too. - GA

Posted by: partsguy22 Mar 23 2023, 08:41 AM

Clay Said I should mention our efforts towards this.
We have been working on a 914 version of our Carb to EFI kits for 356s
We recently did a customers 74 2L and it was a very easy adaptation and will soon be offered as a kit along side of the 356 and 912 kits we currently have.

The kit used a MicroSquirt ECU ,Dual 40mm Weber IDF pattern throttle bodies and a hall effect distributor, it retains the stock fuel pump and regulator and integrates into the original relay board for both power and fuel pump control

On an otherwise stock 2.0 with a mild cam (web 107i) it ended up making 107whp @5200/112wtq@4250 or 121hp and 126tq corrected flywheel with great drivability

Pics to follow if your interested

Posted by: gnomefabtech Mar 23 2023, 09:29 AM

[quote name='gnomefabtech' post='3067062' date='Mar 22 2023, 10:26 PM']
A megasquirt or whatever will run great using the stock D Jet hardware with the addition of modern sensors. I haven't done this yet...[/quote]
I have...see my sig... Prego, it's in there...and you can do it too. - GA
[/quote]


That's a great setup! I'm sure there are significant power and economy gains to be had from just being able to tune accurately. Plus less smog. Win win win!

On another note, it's annoying how expensive throttle bodies are for our cars once they wear out so after a bit of poking around I found that the TB from a 04 Chevy Aveo is the same diameter and has a TPS already. Might work with an adaptor plate. It also has an internal idle port and valve.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284111221789?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1z7x3cnUZQH6JgMkWSTZ_rA1&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=284111221789&targetid=4580840331958307&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225721&mkgroupid=1235851340419610&rlsatarget=pla-4580840331958307&abcId=9300906&merchantid=51291&msclkid=2fe36029bd2f1219a16c0435d2fa1cb8

Posted by: NARP74 Mar 23 2023, 09:57 AM

Very interested. I don't know who you are. What company is doing this? Pics please

Posted by: bossboy302 Mar 23 2023, 10:06 AM

I too have followed your (other) thread. The carbs, when finished, should give years of trouble-free operation. But they have to be properly 'prepared'...

Give them a complete tear-down and thorough cleaning. (Ultrasonic cleaner from Amazon @ 400-500 are great, and can be used for many other purposes). Have the throttle shafts rebushed by a knowlegable machinist. This is one of the biggest sources of tuning difficulties. Then carefully re-assemble with qiuality parts, etc.......

Not rocket science, just parts which can, with patience and understanding. can be made to work reliably. Enjoy!

Posted by: gnomefabtech Mar 23 2023, 11:55 AM

So you are not using a crank trigger wheel? Where does the Hall effect distributor come from? Or is it custom made by you?

Posted by: ClayPerrine Mar 23 2023, 12:01 PM

Zim's Autotechnik.

http://Https://www.allzim.com

Partsguy22 is Aaron, the parts manager at Zims. He helped me with the machine work for the 4.0, and I have seen, and driven the their 356 with FI, and have seen the 914 with fuel injection. The system is simple, and fairly bulletproof. It should be a bolt on system with no mods required. Granted, to get the BEST horsepower, you would need to take it to a dyno, but as is, it bolts on and runs.

Here's a link to the fuel injection kit for the 356. https://store.allzim.com/356-parts/efi-conversion-parts/356-efi-conversion-faq.html

I don't think the 914 FI is on the website yet.

Aaron @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=21587 will have to post pictures.

Posted by: technicalninja Mar 23 2023, 01:21 PM

Basic tuning of an aftermarket ECU does not require a dyno.

It's far better to educate yourself on tuning and get all of the "run normally" stuff done long before you head to a dyno.

A good dyno tune is for setting AFR and ignition timing for BMT (best mean torque) in a semi-laboratory setting.

Making multiple runs fine tuning AFR and continuing to add timing until either of two things happen.
One-adding additional timing does NOT further increase power. At this point you have achieved BMT and you back the timing up a little bit past where the power maxed out. This is what we WANT to happen.

Two- add timing until the knock sensor starts showing hits. Back timing up a bit from the point that the knock occurs. For my stuff I'd be close to knock limits. For my customer's stuff I'd back it up an additional 3+ degrees to be conservative. This is what we call knock limited power. Adding higher octane fuel is the solution to this problem and 90+% of tuning on pump gas ends this way.
100 octane race gas or E85 usually allows tuning to BMT without knock.

These power tunes HAVE to be done on some kind of torque measuring device but if the basics are not completed by the time you hit the dyno you are just wasting your time.

A simple laptop, properly set up system, and 10+ hours of getting it right are what I do BEFORE I hit a dyno...

Posted by: partsguy22 Mar 23 2023, 02:09 PM

I thought I had more pictures of the project after it was finished...

Future revisions will be using a different throttle linkage most likely as it seems most in the 914 community dislike this style , but coming from 356s we have little issue with it


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Attached image(s)

Posted by: Type 47 Mar 23 2023, 05:48 PM

We are hitting pause for a few days, good advise.

while i've owned 7 914's since 77' this is the 1st one i've completely disassembled (except for the engine/trans) and reassembled.

Now that all the ignition stuff got pulled off and messed with I got thrown in the deep end, so tuning is fairly new other than adjusting valves, changing plugs, etc.

Posted by: Type 47 Mar 23 2023, 06:11 PM

Interesting, about an hour from where I live.
Thanks

Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 23 2023, 08:27 PM

Good call.

Here’s something to keep in mind with Webers and Dells of the IDF variety.

About 70-80% of your light load, and light throttle cruising occurs on the idle circuit and the off idle transition ports at low throttle angles.

It’s sort of crazy to contemplate but you can actually drive pretty decently (relatively speaking) with the main jets and the main emulsion tubes removed. seriously!

Take the time to understand the idle circuit and to tune it properly.