Not wanting to put any undue pressure on the TOB I pulled the cable end as far forward as i could while pushing the clutch lever as far back and adjusted the cable with no free play. Tube is good, cable, pressure plate, flywheel etc all have about 30,000kms. Pedal stop is low and yet I have to push the pedal all the way to the floor to keep from grinding in 1st and reverse. I can not pull the pedal back at all as described in the factory manual. It works but barely- the travel is too far even with the cable adjusted with slight pressure on the shift fork lever.
It seems to me there should always be just the slightest play in the cable- no??
Any thoughts?
Pete
Only 1/R? No problem up and down shifting 2 through 5?
Thanks guys-
Tube in tunnel is clean:
I can definitely tighten the cable more- that’s not a problem. The issue is that in doing so there is no free play between the cable and the release lever thus putting pressure on the TOB (and ultimately thrust surfaces in the engine?) If I adjust it to the point where the clutch release is 1/3 of the way from the floor I’d have significant pressure on the TOB but probably not enough to cause the clutch to slip.
Shifting is ok when moving- just having a hard time with 1 and R at a standstill- especially R. I had this issue once before and tightened up the cable= problem gone.
Pivot- I can not find any info in the factory manuals (engine flywheel or transaxle) about shimming specs. That said with the clutch fully depressed it seems I man getting close to hitting the the bell housing:
and with the lever just touching the TOB I have lots of room so it does seem like shimming would be a good idea to prevent interference issues as the clutch wears. I have to tear the car down in the next year or so anyway so I'll take care of that then. Any more info on the said shims would be very helpful.
That all said- it still does not seem like that would lessen the required throw. Am I over thinking the "pressure on the TOB thing?" Maybe my car just needs full travel to completely engage and release? The way it is not I can not get the free play at the pedal described in the factory lit.
BTW I have ordered the rennline clevis but will stack some washers in for the time being to get a bit more adjustment.
Thank again-
Pete
I seem to recall a few “try this”
1) put a 3/4 inch long bushing on the cable end so you can adjust it more.
There was a time that some cables were too long.
Have someone push the clutch in all the way, if the pivot fork hits the case, you have adjusted it all the way.
2) bend the shift fork
3) add a spacer (stared above)
4) get a new pressure plate and possibly a new flywheel to get back into tolerance
I ordered a different clevis but for now I put in a few washers as a spacer. I considered bending the lever.... but thought I might break it with it in the car. I'll check to see if its not already bent when I pull the engine. The flywheel etc are all replaced with new items 30,000kms ago.
For now I have adjusted the first nut as tight as I can with my fingers. The clutch picks up about 1.5" from the floor stop and no grinding. There is no play in the pedal as there should be but its not so tight that I'm worried about it. Still doesn't seem quite right having the cable tight but I'll give it a go this afternoon and see how it feels.
Pete
Has that tunnel been restored?! it's so clean
It sure looks like a clean machine. I have not seen a mention of the free play at the pedal? I generally shoot for 1/2" or so.
I agree with the free play and the bushing. Mine with a bushing and adequate free play had 14mm of thread extending past the nuts
Shouldn't need to add in much if the flywheel hasn't been machined down too far. You will run out of throw before it disengages if it needs to be shimmed. However, DO make sure your transmission ground strap is fully grounded.
If not the cable will conduct the voltage and heat the wire. Stretching it slowly until you get exactly what you are showing. Eventually, if you keep adjusting it will snap.
It could be an alternate problem, that is very easy to fix.
Might be a tight pilot bearing if it ONLY grinds gears when stopped.
I'd determine where the clutch is starting to grab when the pedal is released.
If it's just off the floor then it will be geometry related, flywheel thickness, clutch adjustment, worn clutch disc/plate, broken/bent fork, toasted fork pivot.
If engagement is normal, then it will be something else. Tight pilot bearing, trans/engine misalignment, something else weird...
A winter stuck in Tacoma? Outdoors? Uncovered? Right on Puget Sound, with the brisk salty air, is part of the recipe for problems. Did you rinse every section of the exterior? I would have.
A lot of people seemed to be focused on cable threading. While a spacer might help a little all cables are different so the amount of threads/spacers being used are somewhat irrelevant.
One look at the picture of where the clutch fork sits with no cable installed says it all... trans needs to come out to address this properly.
Doesn't matter how you adjust the cable, install spacers on it, or bend the clutch fork, the total range of motion of the clutch fork/throw out bearing is currently limited by its position in the housing.
It's possible the synchro's at 1 and reverse are shot
The "shim" under the pivot ball is nothing more than a simple 8mm washer. No special thickness or calculations.
Consider this; you shim the pivot ball and it moves the clutch fork and TOB closer to the pressure plate. This allows you to have more travel when the clutch is pulled. Your clutch fork in the pic, if I am understanding that is in neutral position, has some potentially limited motion. When you put the second washer under the pivot ball, put teflon tape on the threads or it will slowly leak.
For the bushing in the fork, that needs changed before you drive if it is truly compromised. You will wreck parts inside of your transmission. Not worth it for less than $5 in parts, and an afternoon of work.
Click in my sig for the free 31 paged of notes and look at the clutch adjustment section. I do feel you are over thinking this. Your clutch is not releasing, your dragging it when you shift, you are damaging your rings/sliders/teeth doing this so at least adjust and see what that brings you. A proper adjustment may show you that you DO NOT need mess with the fork at all.
I agree about the TOB pivot bushing.
After that the most likely cause is an incorrectly machined flywheel.
The position of that arm is not normal.
Full release of the disc should start with the arm much further forward toward the
engine. With good parts no shims would be needed
Another possibility is the pilot bearing, if it is tight or dragging the input shaft it can
cause your symptoms.
And one more......the throwout bearing could be very sticky on its guide tube
First step....remove trans.
Well- as it turns out I was wrong and there the release fork is maxed out. Transmission has to come out.
I did try an interesting experiment to shorten the throw and it does seem to work:
Anyway.. Good tips on transmission only removal??
Pete
While you are in there …….
I've actually found that it is faster to just remove the transmission.
You need to remove the muffler to make room to slide the trans input shaft out of the flywheel and clutch. You need to remember to unfasten everything that connects the trans to anything else--including the ground strap!
One or two of the fasteners that hold the gearbox onto the engine are accessed from the engine side.
You must support the flywheel end of the motor with something that cannot collapse. A floor jack can collapse, and that will shear your motor mounts. (Don't ask how I know this.)
If you can bench-press the ~75 lbs weight of the transmission, it's a lot easier to manhandle the box out from where it lives. Using a jack is very possible, but balancing it without messing up the pulley and pulley shroud is annoying.
--DD
First off the P.O. had everything engine and axle related done on this resto by one of the most well known in the business. That said I have quite a few "details" that needed attention. One example was that the throttles were not synced on the MFI and the idle stunk bad and the inspection guy said he had never seen a car with worse hydrocarbon levels at idle. The rear main seal is leaking. One cold start T had been crimped too hard and had split the plastic eventually spraying gas throughout the engine compartment. And now this clutch shimming issue. I feel like they dialed in WOT but otherwise just pushed this build though.... Needless to say I won't be sending them any of my work. I think they are too busy with Guntherwerks anyway.
Whatever- I love this car and its going to all get fixed up right. Because some know the P.O. I wanted to be sure that its clear that he did his best with little expense spared and a great guy at that.
I have a lift so that makes things a bit easier. How many KG is a 7R and 901 combo? I'm guessing about 500lbs/225kg dry. I have an height adjustable table that I could snug up to the engine an just use the lift to raise the car off of it.
Also if I pull the whole shebang are there any drawings or specs for some type of engine support that I could put on the table? Photos??
If I pull just the transaxle can I support the rear of the engine from above? I used to do that on my old BMW 2002.
Pete
Thanks Clay- sounds like the way to go. Gotta order a RMS as this one is leaking. Also should pull the output shafts for new seals. Any thoughts as to why I'd have leaks with such low mileage?
Pete
If I'm going to replace the output seals should I loosen the output shaft bolts while the axle is still in the car? Flywheel bolts reusable? Any other consumables I should have on hand?
Pete
Well I found a couple of hours (some nighttime prep.... unit out.
First impressions as a first timer- the input shaft and clutch are so small! I'd be nervous to try a 3.6 with this transaxle...
Anyway- taking out the transaxle was very easy. Helps that I have a lift but even with a jack/axle adapter it would be no problem and I would in fact do this over without a full engine drop. Everything is very easy to reach. Even my BMW 2002 was more work than this to pull the transmission.
Held up the engine with a simple scaffolding leg using a rubber block up top and used a hydraulic table with a simple wooden jig to support the transaxle and it just slid right out.
In looking over the parts at first there were no obvious issues apparent. Everything was well greased and in great shape.
Nylon pivot in place:
Fork straight:
Wait a second......there are issues with the last 2 pics- are the related to the problem or not- that I do not know.
Good job getting the trans out - beautiful garage.
The main pivot you’re interested in is in the bottom photo - circled. Under the pivot ball stud that screws into the trans housing. To regain shift fork geometry this pivot ball gets another (or a thicker) washer between it and the trans housing to move the pivot rearward. This will get you some clearance between the shift fork lever arm and the trans housing.
I can’t tell from the photo on top if there are parts of the pressure plate hanging up on the flywheel. If the flywheel has been machined deeper than it should have been, this can lead to the symptoms you’re having. Likewise if they machined the flywheel face deeper but didn’t take a similar amount off the top face - maybe it can lead to interference between the flywheel and the pressure plate? I’m speculating. Just give those three tabs an eye and make sure they aren’t hung up.
This guy! Washer goes under this ball stud
The flywheel is supposedly new but I'll check those for sure- who knows??
the pressure plate and clutch all seem good- clutch disk well within spec. As the y all should be with 30000kms.
One thing that bothers me though is that in this photo there is still a mm or 2 before the fork hits the bell housing- and yet the fork would not move further. With the PP out of the way the fork has no problem moving all the way to the bell housing.
Maybe something was binding before the PP was able to release all the way??
Ugh! Starter not fully engaging ring gear teeth!
Edit: search on hi torque starter - this has been a reoccuring issue with some brands of the hi torque starter not having the mounting plate machined properly and/or binding resulting in only partial engagement with the ring gear. Recently someone else was having issues with WOSP high torque starters.
Time for a new flywheel - I’m so sorry you’re going through these troubles!
What is this that looks like it’s flaking? Looks like cardboard / shipping material? Doesn’t look like iron or steel.
The nylon pivot bushing needs to be in the hole in the throw out fork then the yoke is installed.
The small yoke goes under the pivot ball. I think that is why you don't have correct range for the throw out yoke.
great work and a PITA for sure, Bummer about the ring gear starter issue, Two steps forward...... lots of work I know but looks like you will get to the bottom of it!!
that is one beautiful work place, especially in Japan. Beautiful building and set up. I think I can appreciate the effort that that would take to put into place. Where are you?? I lived in Atsugi for 3 years.
Oh yes, that is also one crazy nice car too - best seats ever, coolest motor ever, great color, just over the top nice.
Probably not what you want to hear but personally, if it were me and now that its out, I would replace:
Flywheel - as the ring gear is trashed
Starter - as it trashed the ring gear
Pressure plate - appears to have an unusual amount of wear where it contacts the Throwout bearing for having only ~18k miles, and I have learned NEVER to trust used pressure plates anyways.
Clutch disk- just a given as you are replacing the flywheel and pressure plate
Throwout bearing - Definitely inspect, possibly replace as its unclear why the pressure plate teeth are worn the way they are. I would probably just replace on principal.
All the shift fork bushings - because they are cheep and you are in there.
Then test fit the trans (bolts needs to be tightened) and inspect the position of the clutch fork. then possibly pull the trans back out and shim the pivot ball. I have had to shim these even with all new components to get them perfect. Given you are replacing a lot of wear items that will impact the position of the clutch fork though test fit BEFORE adding the shims as it doesn't take much to bring that fork all the way forward. Even if you dont think you are running out of clutch fork travel before disengagement, still get that fork shimmed as far forward as possible without contacting the housing as it will improve the feel of the clutch pedal.
The body has been completely gone through once, and has been well documented on the site here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=249327
That said, there are issues with the paint, and to be perfectly honest I would leave it except for there areas that are starting to lift. I have found one small rust hole under the rear quarter that wasn’t repaired. Otherwise I think everything else is probably taken care of.
I love the 914 and am glad to join you long term owners! I definitely plan on keeping mine!
Pete
Flywheel has a hot spot evident from the front side (non friction.)
Micro cracks in the pressure plate. not sure if the is abnormal. The cracks are very fine:
Given the off center heat mark on the flywheel it seems one side was getting hotter than the rest. I wonder if one of the teeth from the flywheel made its way/lodged into the pressure plate assembly throwing it off parallel as it engaged???
RMS leak for sure-not the case. Surprised to see a VR seal in there as it is the least popular on the forums. I'll probably try the elring. It does seem there is a Speedy sleeve in there already:
Oh- the 4 cylinder unit bolts up- that's good to know.
After posting I was recalling the driving experience- I never found the engine sluggish to rev with the stock unit so I'll likely stick with that.
Doug built an awesome car and I'll get it all buttoned up for sure.
Thanks-
Pete
I thought a bit about the light weight flywheel after posting- the unit in the car is a Qsc and supposedly 13lbs. Didn’t seem heavy…
Pete
Thanks for digging that up! Big help and interesting info.
The engine put out over 190ft-lb on the dyno so I'm just over the spec for that plate......
I wrote to a couple of places including Patrick Motor Sports but did not hear back.....
Pete
Also have an email in to Rothsport as they built the car.
A little update- I finally figure out that the PP I have is in fact a KEP stage 1 with an aluminum shoe. The cracking indicates overheating and will eventually fail leaving bare spots of aluminum- but not yet.
In searching for info over the last days I had contacted Rothsport (the builder), Patrick and Kennedy. Never heard a back format he others but Kennedy got back to me right away with the info I needed. Their Stage 1 kit is good for 230ft/lbs. After figuring out that the PP that was in the car was indeed KEP I have not worries about the spec. I have ordered a full KEP kit, flywheel and all, to replace the burnt stuff. I was told the flywheel is 15 lbs. The also deal WOSP starters so I grabbed one of those to replace the questionable IMI unit. The IMI's teeth were not looking good. Lead time 3 weeks max on the kit - then shipping to Japan so a month+ until it’s in my hands.
Well- this is the best season for the 914 so I’m not leaving the car lame on the lift. Got up early and put it all back together with all the used stuff thinking this would be a good way to see if the problem was in fact just the throw out lever bottoming out on the case.
Printed up this seal tool because why not?
Seriously it takes so little time to measure and draw this and it prints overnight- like a little present in the morning. Went with the Elring seal dry with a smear of engine oil on the inner lip and popped it right in with a mallet. The tool centers on the crankshaft and puts the seal flush with the case.
+ 2 washers under the ball pivot. There was already one washer in there so only about 8mm of threads left and the threads are not in the greatest shape so a touch of med loctite. I used a sealing washer against the case:
What is up with 11mm nuts on the clutch cable anyway???
First drive- didn't even make it out of the driveway before R and 1st started to grind at a stop. Adjusted the cable again and found a little more room at the pedal stop and took a drive to the gas station. I -just- has play at the pedal so the clutch is not dragging but I still have to use the full pedal travel to fully release the clutch. There is no wiggle room so something is still weird..... We'll see what happens when the new KEP stuff shows up.
For now its time get the car out for some exercise. Early tomorrow morning 3.5 hours of this:
Glad you’re out driving while waiting on parts.
So with the added washer under the ball stud, are you still running out of travel on the clutch fork before it interferes with the case?
Nope- at least I dont think so. I'll have to check with my remote camera but based on this I'd be very surprised. This is all the play in the lever
Full forward:
full back:
But even like this with 10cm of free travel on the pedal and the pedal stop maxed in the low position the engagement is still low.
Pete
hmm.
Will be very interested to see where it lands with the new parts. I agree something still not right.
Looks like you can file the washer where the clutch lever bottoms out. Maybe .060" there. Idk what that translates to in pedal travel, but it's easy to find out. I needed to do this on mine at some point.
assume youve looked at this but thought its worth checking as I've seen this on multiple boxes where the stamped steel pivot fork is no longer ... true.
Attached image(s)
That sealing washer looks very thick. If it is too thick with that and the other washer, you run into the same problem as the level loses command at the angle you get with the spacers. Similar action to the failure that Rich posted above with the messed up fork retainer.
Just an small update- the KEP stuff has arrived so I thought I would post up some pics and weights.
As stated before I put the questionable stuff back in and have been running it like that. I removed the clutch pedal stop entirely and have had no issues with grinding etc. Situation is stable and reliable. But the pickup point is still low and with almost no play in the pedal i.e. T.O. bearing is probably riding the fingers of the pressure plate a bit. Good news is that both the pivot and rear main both seem to be holding oil.
New stuff from KEP. I thought it was stage 1 but box says stage 2- not sure of the difference.
Flywheel weighs in at 5.6kg/12.4lbs. Doesn't seem super light to me and I'm not sure of the original flywheel weight. Probably a good balance for a street car with the 2.7 rs spec cams.
Aluminum shoe (or foot?) PP. Steel coated friction surface. 3.1kg/6.8lbs.
KEP used to deal the Hi-torque starter but has dropped them and now deals WOSP.
So It will be a while before I dig back into it all seeing as in its all working well at the moment. I will drop the motor this winter for dyno tuning and to get some paint work done at the same time. I'll check the condition of the current stuff and see if its gotten any worse. My guess is that it's fine as I'm sure there is no slippage.
Best!
Pete
All those parts are way too clean
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