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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Tell me about oil cooler seals
Posted by: emerygt350 May 31 2023, 06:10 PM
I thought my leak to the front of 4 was the valve cover gasket. Now I am leaning more towards the seal on the oil cooler. Seems to only really leak when the oil is hot.
Posted by: Chaznaster May 31 2023, 06:48 PM
I think I had the same leak. Replaced the seals with the engine out, which was simple. The seals were hard as rocks. I'll know if that fixed it when I get it running again in the next few days.
There are a few good threads on this site for doing it without pulling the engine ...
Posted by: emerygt350 May 31 2023, 08:55 PM
I think I had the same leak. Replaced the seals with the engine out, which was simple. The seals were hard as rocks. I'll know if that fixed it when I get it running again in the next few days.
There are a few good threads on this site for doing it without pulling the engine ...
I am intrigued... I will go digging.
Posted by: emerygt350 May 31 2023, 09:04 PM
Very interesting indeed, has anyone else attempted this?
I don't have a lift.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=218024
Posted by: r_towle May 31 2023, 10:01 PM
On jack stands, it can be done.
I put Vaseline on them so they stick in place.
You need time to get the second one in and push the cooler back in place.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 1 2023, 03:28 AM
Awesome. Did you drain the oil?
Posted by: Jack Standz Jun 1 2023, 07:48 AM
Have done it a couple times. The thread shows you the way.
No need to drain oil, but remove filter before removing filter bracket. You can use a small drop of superglue (or grease) to hold the seals in place. In addition, a small rachet with a universal joint helps get the third nut fastened, take some different length extensions maybe a shallow and/or deep socket and try different combinations until you find what works.
Posted by: ctc911ctc Jun 1 2023, 01:48 PM
I did it on jack stands once - it was a PAIN!!!!!!! 
I then removed the engine to do the:
Transmission (2 dogs and 3 sync rings)
New Push rod tubes
Clean everything
Exhaust stud - loose from Helicoil
Front/Back seals
Clutch and cable, few broken small parts
ALSO
The Oil Cooler Seal - for the second time - took a few minutes with the engine out.
I think removing the engine is though seemingly longer, is in actuality shorter and more definitive. A very skilled experienced mechanic can do it the hard way and make it look easy, for me the engine-in oil cooler seal change was very frustrating and I never really trusted that I had them in correctly,,,,I did it the hardway once and made it look impossible!
my 2 cents
Posted by: brant Jun 1 2023, 01:54 PM
its easier to remove the engine.
if you choose not to remove the engine.... one trick to make it less time consuming is to sawzall the 3 long studs that hold the cooler... then replace those 3 studs upon reassembly..
another trick... use dow corning 111 on those seals. It is an O-ring grease and the appropriate thing to use. I would never rtv them as some have done in the past... and I dont' think I would ever super glue them either...
Posted by: r_towle Jun 1 2023, 02:04 PM
I have done it on jack stands...its not terribly hard, you just need to be patient.
Getting the new seals to stay put while you get the cooler back in place is where you just need to be calm, use some grease (vaseline) or something that hot oil will dissolve.
I also do all my pushrod tubes while the engine is in the car...again...not hard, just challenging.
Now...a 2006 911 S 3.8 liter...Plugs
I get all five in minutes, no big deal.
Then the last one, passenger side rear.
WTF...that took me about 40 minutes, every tool I own...just stupid.
They could have done a better job with the exhaust bracketry.
Rich
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 1 2023, 03:45 PM
I was going to ask about the tubes. Thanks rich. I know it will be frustrating and slow but I am just not ready to drop the motor yet. Someday.
Posted by: Shivers Jun 1 2023, 03:56 PM
Have you changed the oil and filter lately?
Some filters do not seat right. I thought it
was the cooler seals, it was a Fram filter instead
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 1 2023, 05:02 PM
It's a mobile1. I will definitely check and see. It started while I was racing. But that coincided with getting the oil good and hot for the first time this year
Posted by: iankarr Jun 1 2023, 06:22 PM
I was going to ask about the tubes. Thanks rich. I know it will be frustrating and slow but I am just not ready to drop the motor yet. Someday.
I understand the aversion, but like Nike says…just do it. So much easier to bite the bullet and drop the engine. You’ll be more sure of the repair and you can address other things like plugs, cleaning, valves, etc. while the engine is out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMesGrjgcvg
Posted by: 914werke Jun 1 2023, 06:27 PM
I did it on jack stands once - it was a PAIN!!!!!!!
Funny I had never done this task *in car* before & ended up recently doing it with car on the QuickJACK.... 
Never again ~
Its doable but as mentioned a PITA!!
Posted by: r_towle Jun 1 2023, 06:40 PM
Unless you have an engine stand, and a way to pick it up once dropped , I suggest you do all rubber and gaskets while it’s in the car
Clean everything
Place cardboard underneath
Find the drip
Pushrod tubes cannot be totally removed in car, but you don’t need to remove the. Just unseat them, change o-rings, reseat them.
Remove rocker arms from car. Put back after, then set valves ( but they will be the same as when removed because nothing has changed)
Vice grips to pop push rod tubes from case and heads.
Leave push rods inside…no need to remove them
Oil cooler seals, we covered
Oil temp sensor, if equipped
Oil sump strainer
Oil pressure sensor
New valve cover gaskets
Oil filler box has a gasket under it also
You mention racing and hot oil.
So higher oil pressure, hot oil, 40 year old gaskets
Remove, clean, new gaskets and new crush washers for all locations.
Aside from front and rear main seals….those are the leakers
I just did all of those, on a lift.
I also redid the leaky transmission shifter console
Not hard, no need to remove engine
I admit that removing the heat exchangers will make some of the project easier, but that introduces more risk with head studs breaking.
This is an annual or every two year thing when racing.
While there, tighten all cv joint bolts….because
Posted by: brant Jun 1 2023, 07:21 PM
I’ll just add that it’s very satisfying to drop the motor
Clean everything
Fix 8 things so easily
Clean the cooler
and re-install
Reassuring also for a track car so you “know” you have addressed everything.
Less problems the next time at the track
Posted by: bkrantz Jun 1 2023, 07:41 PM
Another vote for dropping the engine. Lots of things are possible with the engine in place, but the aggravation factor goes WAY up. Along with the chance of not doing it right--and then doing it again.
Posted by: ClayPerrine Jun 2 2023, 06:16 AM
if you choose not to remove the engine.... one trick to make it less time consuming is to sawzall the 3 long studs that hold the cooler... then replace those 3 studs upon reassembly..
Why in the hell would you "sawzall" the oil cooler studs????
Just push the cooler forward, and use a pair of vice grips to unscrew the studs. I wrote up the whole procedure to change the oil cooler with the engine in the car, and I have done it in a hotel parking lot in Salt Lake City.
I will agree, it is much easier to drop the engine. But there are times like the situation in Salt Lake where you just can't drop the engine.
Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 2 2023, 06:26 AM
Try to do it without removing the motor.
That way you’ll quickly learn why it’s best to just drop the engine for aL most everything but routine maintenance.
Posted by: brant Jun 2 2023, 08:32 AM
if you choose not to remove the engine.... one trick to make it less time consuming is to sawzall the 3 long studs that hold the cooler... then replace those 3 studs upon reassembly..
Why in the hell would you "sawzall" the oil cooler studs????
Just push the cooler forward, and use a pair of vice grips to unscrew the studs. I wrote up the whole procedure to change the oil cooler with the engine in the car, and I have done it in a hotel parking lot in Salt Lake City.
I will agree, it is much easier to drop the engine. But there are times like the situation in Salt Lake where you just can't drop the engine.
Porsche mechanic trick
Less hourly rate
Cheaper to replace. Saves on the hourly rate
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 10:45 AM
Ok, I have started investigating.
One question, how do you get to the upper nut on the oil filter arm? Seems to be right up against the oil cooler and no room.
I took a bunch of pictures. Nothing screams 'massive leak here'. The oil is on stuff to the front of the oil cooler as well which makes me go hmmm.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 10:48 AM
Notice how nice and dry the other side is.
No idea why that hose clamp is in the heater pipe. Don't judge my driver side tin can heat exchanger fix. It works.
And again, it isnt a drip, it's a hot engine issue only (as far as I can tell), although hot oil would drip easier the leak doesn't happen when parked hot. At least not as far as I can tell. There will be the residual dropping from stuff hanging on the metal, but once it falls that is it. Drove it around cold yesterday and no dripping.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 11:14 AM
The filter was on good. Not that it means much. The pattern makes me wonder if it was the filter, very little oil dripping from the filter itself. I guess the airflow over the filter would send an oil mist over that from area as well, plus turbulence under the car.
Do the coolers themselves ever get pin holes?
Posted by: brant Jun 2 2023, 03:13 PM
It’s hard to guess where your leak is
Could be the pressure sender for your oil
Could also be the oil pump too
All of which are easy to see and trace with the motor out and the Tin off
Hard to guess from pictures with the motor installed
Sounds like you will have to guess the way your doing it
And you might get to do it a couple of times
Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 2 2023, 03:36 PM
It’s hard to guess where your leak is
Could be the pressure sender for your oil
Could also be the oil pump too
All of which are easy to see and trace with the motor out and the Tin off
Hard to guess from pictures with the motor installed
Sounds like you will have to guess the way your doing it
And you might get to do it a couple of times
The funny thing is how many of us probably tried it this way long before there was an internet to share tribal knowledge that dropping the engine is for sure the way to go.
Powerplant literally comes out in 60 minutes or less once you’ve done it a couple times.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 03:48 PM
I completely understand that all of this will be easy if I drop the engine, and I am not ruling that out. If it's the fing oil filter gasket and I dropped the engine because you told me to..
Help me with " when my cooler seals went that is not what I saw" or "have you looked at x" or "that upper bolt on the filter arm is hopeless/not hopeless, here is how you do it". Time spent working on this is free for me. I am not racing to get it back on the road.
I actually want to try the replacing the pushrod tube seals with the engine in. Just to see how it goes. Hell, setting the valve clearance with the engine in sucks major donkey xxxx but we all do it without dropping the engine. If I hit a wall I can always drop the engine. That too will be a learning experience. One that requires tools I do not have at the moment (to do it safely).
Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 2 2023, 04:00 PM
Just to be clear I’m not making fun of you. I literally did the same thing 1/2 way 30+ years ago before dropping the engine out of frustration. 
You can drop the engine with a couple jack stands and a floor jack. The only special tool I can think of, is the triple square bits for the CV joints. And in all honestly I used to use a hex on those before I learned the hard way that a hex isnt the right tool.
Based on how wet that side is and how high up it is wet, I can’t see it being just a loose oil filter gasket.
Posted by: brant Jun 2 2023, 04:02 PM
Probably 100 times I’ve dropped 914 motors with a Jack
You likely have the needed tools
Small Allen wrench (for shift linkage)
Star/ 12 point socket for cvs
Sockets and box/open wrenches
Two jackstands (the taller the better)
A friend to help balance is helpful but not required
Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 2 2023, 04:08 PM
Notice how nice and dry the other side is.
No idea why that hose clamp is in the heater pipe. Don't judge my driver side tin can heat exchanger fix. It works.
And again, it isnt a drip, it's a hot engine issue only (as far as I can tell), although hot oil would drip easier the leak doesn't happen when parked hot. At least not as far as I can tell. There will be the residual dropping from stuff hanging on the metal, but once it falls that is it. Drove it around cold yesterday and no dripping.
The fact that it is a hot engine issue speaks to the fact that with cold oil at start up, you’re bypassing or partially bypassing the oil cooler, but when hot you should have full flow through the oil cooler.
Posted by: brant Jun 2 2023, 04:10 PM
Also a small leaker blows around a lot in that area
It’s existing hot air and swirls some too
I have an oil pump minor leak that looks like most of the same areas as your pics
But it gets around in that air path
I’ll pull the motor eventually but living with it until then
It’s my street car and runs great so I’ve been putting it off
Wash everything
I even tape (aluminum tape not duct tape) some folded paper towel into strategic areas …. Test warm one time and not any longer than needed
See which area it’s coming from…. If not multiples
Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 2 2023, 04:12 PM
No idea why that hose clamp is in the heater pipe. Don't judge my driver side tin can heat exchanger fix. It works.
My guess is there was a rattle from the j-pipe and the hose clap holds them to prevent the rattle
Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 2 2023, 04:17 PM
I’m also a fan of UV dye in the oil approach.
And an excuse to buy a new tool 
So many cool tools that didn’t exist in 80s or I just couldn’t afford.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 04:27 PM
I have not looked at the pump. Wouldn't that go both ways and not just passenger? I will my boroscope out tomorrow.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 04:29 PM
The hot engine thing keeps pulling me back to the cooler, but hot thin high pressure oil doesn't make it a sure thing.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 04:30 PM
And don't get me wrong, as soon as I see the need I will be all roses on dropping the engine. It will be a big moment in my 914 life history. Here was when I pushed it to its limits at Watkins Glen international raceway, and here is when I had to drop the engine a couple weeks later.
Posted by: r_towle Jun 2 2023, 06:46 PM
When was the last time you changed the valve cover gaskets?
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 07:20 PM
Two days ago. Sadly. That was my first impulse. In fact I brought fresh ones to the glen just in case.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 2 2023, 07:21 PM
And the ones I replaced are from last fall when I set the valve clearances.
Posted by: mate914 Jun 2 2023, 07:59 PM
You did just run at the Glen... Maybe high RPM's + Temps pushed oil out the breather?
Matt
And the ones I replaced are from last fall when I set the valve clearances.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 3 2023, 05:49 AM
I think that did occur up top. But now even regular driving (hot) will cause oil leakage.
Posted by: rhodyguy Jun 4 2023, 11:27 AM
Start spraying ALL of the ducting fasteners with a GOOD penetrant. Repeatedly until the engine is dropped. If the mentioned fasteners are an indication, start spraying every fastener related to dropping the engine. If loosening up and they start snapping, you’re making an easy job harder and longer.
Posted by: emerygt350 Jun 19 2023, 01:47 PM
Well... replaced the seals with the engine in. It was pretty easy. Just took my time and even my big hands and fingers were able to reach in for the bolts and washers. Hardest part was getting the upper oil filter console bolt out.
However, it wasn't just the seals (or maybe not at all). It appears that the oil cooler itself is the culprit. Not going to try and replace that without pulling the motor.
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