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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ I can see another reason for people performing carb swaps
Posted by: nditiz1 Aug 27 2023, 10:59 PM
I love carbs, they are simple in terms of parts.
I love CIS/djet/ljet/efi because hot/cold it starts and runs, doesn't need to be baby'd when first starting in cold weather.
Anyway - I'm just finishing up installing this nice 76 912e engine running pretty much the same ljet in the 914 and I hit a snag that makes it so I can't even get to hear it's first fire up. My car had its dual relay stripped. Yes, if it was still there I could fire it up, BUT it made me think, what if someone running ljet has one go out? So while I began my search for what I thought was a simple yet specific part I found tons of OOS. Wait, why?! It's a dual relay right? 2 relays glued together housed in the same unit (yes I realize more to it then that). So if these parts are unobtainable, then yeah it would make me want to remove it and go with something where parts are fruitful. So while most of the time the black arts of djet and ljet confuse some to swap to carbs, the unavailability of specific parts can also make that a thing.
Ok im done ranting.
Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2023, 03:59 AM
according to my quick search you can still get it?
the 912 E has the same dual (Double) relay.
at AA
http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-Dual-Double-Relay-Fuel-Injection-914-1-8-912e-Parts-PN-R92361510100.html
not cheap.
but it wasn't cheap in 1989 either.
cost $87.85 USD back then = approx $216 US these days.
i looked up my reciept from the old days, because you got me worried. 
they are not a direct replacement for the original metal relay.
the wiring in is slightly different.
i think @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=26011 has his head around that. there is a little mod that is done.
of course i never did mine back in 89, the wonderfull mechanic i went to in chicago back then took care of it.
what i can tell you is that already in 1989 these black plastic relays were the superceding part for the original metal case relays. my metal one was thrown out and the black plastic one installed.
its also a common part i think with the VW beetles that were fuel injected and maybe some buses but not 100% on that. i am just a dumb north antarctican and we didn't do this advanced fuel injection stuff back in the 1970s so not up on all the details of north american VW EFI installations across the model range.
Posted by: Van B Aug 28 2023, 05:23 AM
Yeah, and this is a cheap replacement too!
Attached image(s)
Posted by: mlindner Aug 28 2023, 05:33 AM
I had Weber's on my four, now PMO's on my six GT Tribute. I really don't mind the cold start issues, remind me to keep the revs low until oil is warm.
Posted by: Porschef Aug 28 2023, 05:52 AM
PartsGeek has them, 85 clams
Posted by: nditiz1 Aug 28 2023, 06:32 AM
Thanks porschef! Looks to be the last one.
I did see that AA had them as I found another thread where George supposedly bought the remaining stock. The AA business has recently rubbed me the wrong way. I bought parts that showed in stock only to find out days later they were out of stock and did not inform me, that and it took 5 business days to ship out another part that was in stock. Not to get on another rant but communication should be better as well as speed.
Posted by: Porschef Aug 28 2023, 06:55 AM
Pretty sure the bugs and vans used the same ones. Should be a fair amount out there.
Glad to help
Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2023, 07:10 AM
Pretty sure the bugs and vans used the same ones. Should be a fair amount out there.
Glad to help
1989 prices at 85 clams.
how can you go past that.
Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2023, 07:14 AM
Thanks porschef! Looks to be the last one.
I did see that AA had them as I found another thread where George supposedly bought the remaining stock. The AA business has recently rubbed me the wrong way. I bought parts that showed in stock only to find out days later they were out of stock and did not inform me, that and it took 5 business days to ship out another part that was in stock. Not to get on another rant but communication should be better as well as speed.
as porschef suggests go sniffing some of the VW parts websites.
they got to be out there. wasn't just 914s ran with them.
if you find a supply let us know.
agree its a bit of a worry if these components dry up.
ps try living in north antarctica.
getting parts in 5 days would be prompt express delivery.
it can take weeks........and weeks........and
Posted by: DRPHIL914 Aug 28 2023, 07:22 AM
I love carbs, they are simple in terms of parts.
I love CIS/djet/ljet/efi because hot/cold it starts and runs, doesn't need to be baby'd when first starting in cold weather.
Anyway - I'm just finishing up installing this nice 76 912e engine running pretty much the same ljet in the 914 and I hit a snag that makes it so I can't even get to hear it's first fire up. My car had its dual relay stripped. Yes, if it was still there I could fire it up, BUT it made me think, what if someone running ljet has one go out? So while I began my search for what I thought was a simple yet specific part I found tons of OOS. Wait, why?! It's a dual relay right? 2 relays glued together housed in the same unit (yes I realize more to it then that). So if these parts are unobtainable, then yeah it would make me want to remove it and go with something where parts are fruitful. So while most of the time the black arts of djet and ljet confuse some to swap to carbs, the unavailability of specific parts can also make that a thing.
Ok im done ranting.
this i think is changing now with the advent of the modern FI like Holly , its going to allow for keeping FI and not worrying about the parts availablility issues.
OR more expensive option is the Jenvey ITB's that Eric Shea is using now on some of their builds. but the Holly Terminator X conversions for d-jet and i guess L-jet too, is a viable affordable alternative and probably a big upgrade regarding programability too.
Posted by: Porschef Aug 28 2023, 07:34 AM
the Holly Terminator X conversions for d-jet and i guess L-jet too, is a viable affordable alternative and probably a big upgrade regarding programability too.
Don’t know nothin’ about these, I’ll have to take a look.
Thanks Doc
Posted by: GregAmy Aug 28 2023, 07:45 AM
this i think is changing now with the advent of the modern FI like Holly , its going to allow for keeping FI and not worrying about the parts availablility issues....and probably a big upgrade regarding programability too.
That's why I did it. See sig.
Posted by: Krieger Aug 28 2023, 08:45 AM
I have one of those relays I took off my wife's 912E in the 90s. I bought a new one as an unnecessary preventative measure. I used it last year on a friend's car to check his system out. His relayed was fine and my worked too. I'd sell it for $35. I also have the working injectors I replaced when I rebuilt the engine. I'd sell them for $100. Plus shipping.
Posted by: Justinp71 Aug 28 2023, 09:30 AM
I had Weber's on my four, now PMO's on my six GT Tribute. I really don't mind the cold start issues, remind me to keep the revs low until oil is warm.
Looks good! I have a similar setup, carbs haven't let me down in the 15 years I've been running them. Went from a 2.7 CIS to a carb'd 3.0 and never looked back. Felt like I gained 75hp.
Posted by: 930cabman Aug 28 2023, 11:18 AM
If I was confident all the necessary parts/pieces were readily available (at a reasonable $) and bench testing was also available, I would give it a try. When new the Bosch systems were unbeatable, but after a half century who knows what this stuff has been through.
For now, Weber carbs have served me well for several different sporting machines
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Aug 28 2023, 12:16 PM
we have the dual relays on the shelf.
Glad that you are keeping your fuel injection, way too many 912e models were stripped of it and finding the hardware for the injection IS impossible these days, sure devalues the car and will never run as well. The AFC L jetronic they installed on the 912E 2.0 was superb
I love carbs, they are simple in terms of parts.
I love CIS/djet/ljet/efi because hot/cold it starts and runs, doesn't need to be baby'd when first starting in cold weather.
Anyway - I'm just finishing up installing this nice 76 912e engine running pretty much the same ljet in the 914 and I hit a snag that makes it so I can't even get to hear it's first fire up. My car had its dual relay stripped. Yes, if it was still there I could fire it up, BUT it made me think, what if someone running ljet has one go out? So while I began my search for what I thought was a simple yet specific part I found tons of OOS. Wait, why?! It's a dual relay right? 2 relays glued together housed in the same unit (yes I realize more to it then that). So if these parts are unobtainable, then yeah it would make me want to remove it and go with something where parts are fruitful. So while most of the time the black arts of djet and ljet confuse some to swap to carbs, the unavailability of specific parts can also make that a thing.
Ok im done ranting.
Posted by: wonkipop Aug 28 2023, 07:09 PM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18763
had some spare time to google this a bit further.
think you are right about them drying up.
the relay was used in L jet bugs.
L jet buses, some BMWs and MERCS and also fits the Nissan 280Z as a replacement for the original J part. and there are probably more that share this particular relay 0 332 514 120. so there are a few cars out there that need them.
yeah, most places you look, marked out of stock, unavailable, sold out.
bug city has 1 in stock with a higher price than AA!
interesting. there would def be demand for these as a repro run by someone.
presume bosch no longer interested in running a batch out?
Posted by: r_towle Aug 28 2023, 07:14 PM
While I love the simplicity of carbs….I think I’m done with them due to the terribly inconstant fuel/ethanol/water we get now at the pump.
I have some really bad memories this year on 4 cars and my lawn mower.
All new, cleaned, redone fuel systems.
I’m most likely going to suck it up and flip to FI with ITBs on my two less than stock engines. In the long run I would rather have tuning available and cars that run after being in storage for a while
Posted by: wonkipop Aug 29 2023, 07:07 AM
here is what R Atwell says.
https://ratwell.com/technical/DoubleRelay.html
not good news 
Posted by: GregAmy Aug 29 2023, 07:50 AM
here is what R Atwell says...not good news
I'm not seeing anything in those diagrams that cannot be easily worked around with two simple (and cheap) Bosch relays.
Y'all can sell your double-relay top the concourse set and make a profit...
Posted by: Porschef Aug 29 2023, 08:01 AM
here is what R Atwell says.
https://ratwell.com/technical/DoubleRelay.html
not good news
Honey!!Get bread!! And milk!! And a dual relay!! And beer!!
Prolly wouldn’t hurt to have a spare. Old parts drying up...
Posted by: nditiz1 Aug 29 2023, 08:35 AM
I'll have some extras if anyone needs them
I thought about creating it from $8 in parts. I'm not an electrical engineer. Then I thought about the work involved and decided what's $100 or less (thanks Andy!)
Posted by: nditiz1 Aug 29 2023, 11:48 AM
Email from PartsGeek 
Good thing I had backups
Posted by: technicalninja Aug 29 2023, 12:02 PM
Email from PartsGeek
Good thing I had backups
That happens all the time on 10-year-old cars now for me...
It's getting really bad.
Plenty of cheap Chinese crap is available.
Good parts not so much...
Imagine if you were doing this work for customers who would get MAD when the cheap parts failed.
I bought the very last Honda AC control head for a 2011 Civic 2 months ago.
I've put in 5 in the last 5 years.
What am I going to do when the next one comes in?
Posted by: wonkipop Aug 29 2023, 04:18 PM
here is what R Atwell says...not good news
I'm not seeing anything in those diagrams that cannot be easily worked around with two simple (and cheap) Bosch relays.
Y'all can sell your double-relay top the concourse set and make a profit...
yep thats what R Atwell is saying.
thats going to be the answer.
and thats whal i will do if mine gives up.
i have filed away his web page just in case his website ever disappears.
300-400 USD by the time i get one here and pay in aussie pesos (the AUD has tanked) makes that a 700AUD part. no farken way.
i dug up one on bug city. one only in stock. they wanted nearly $400 for it.
i hope they die with it.
.one thing i did discover is a lot of cars used this particular dual relay.
not just 914s.
a nissan 280Z in particular. so those boys would need them too and also have been hoovering them up. some bmws. L jet beetles. etc. not to mention the bus that had L jet.
Posted by: Van B Aug 29 2023, 06:14 PM
There will be another run at some point, I’m sure of it.
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