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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ P-car 6 or SBC 8
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 10:53 AM
Enough of the little horsepower pissing match, it's time for the fast cars to have their pissing match.
I'll be honest, my loyalty to the P-motor doesn't run very deep. They are WAY to expensive for the HP you get. The ONLY advantage i can see from a performance standpoint is the weight, and i'm not sure it's as big as everyone imagines (guessing less than the weight of a decent passenger).
The SBC is easier to work on, builds more HP easily, lasts longer at the same HP level, and sounds better 
(subjective i know). You do lose the front trunk, but a 914 is not a practical car to start with, so no biggy 
I understand people wanting to keep the bloodlines true and blah blah blah.. isn't that kinda like in-breeding?
please discuss 
Posted by: URY914 Aug 18 2005, 11:06 AM
I would love to have a wide body SBC 914 that just hauls ass!!
Of course, I would still have a 914 GT replica with a 3.2 short stroke...
And my T-4 superlight autox car.
I think that would just about cover it. 
Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2005, 11:07 AM
not much to discuss, 2 totally different vehicles......
yes, for HP per Dollar spent, the SBC normally wins, but once you reach a certain HP level, the SBC will cost more due to the transmission........
one it not better than the other unless you are building it for a particular class or race org.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 11:12 AM
| QUOTE |
| but once you reach a certain HP level, the SBC will cost more due to the transmission........ |
Have to beef the trans w/ the pancake 6 too, it's just easier to get to that point w/ the SBC
Imagine a turbo 3.6 in front a 914 box...
KABOOMCan someone weigh street (not stripped racecar) -6 for me?
Thanks
Posted by: URY914 Aug 18 2005, 11:15 AM
I think the SBC's get out-of-hand pretty quick. Do you really need 500 HP in a 2000 pound car with a wheelbase of a 914? You need to up-grade every everything
Build a 250-300 HP SBC 914 with a 915 and you're safe.
Paul
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 11:24 AM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Aug 18 2005, 09:15 AM) |
| I think the SBC's get out-of-hand pretty quick. Do you really need 500 HP in a 2000 pound car with a wheelbase of a 914? You need to up-grade every everything Build a 250-300 HP SBC 914 with a 915 and you're safe. Paul |
it's much more fun if it's an 1800lb car
The 914 brakes are a joke, the 911 stuff is a bolt on, and gives the rotors much more heat handling capabilities so you should be upgrading the brakes anyways
the tranny will hold up to 300HP as long as you are not trying to break it. "Drive White" as my grand-dad used to say
The suspension is getting upgraded by everyone, not jus the v-8 guys.
To do a -6 conversion right you are doing the same amount of work to the rest of the car.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 18 2005, 11:27 AM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 01:12 PM) |
| Can someone weigh street (not stripped racecar) -6 for me? |
book curb weight is 940 Kg
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 11:29 AM
if my memory is right there are 2.2lbs/kg so 2068lbs total...
That would have to be an early car, and that puts a v-8 less than 100lbs extra 
Posted by: Brett W Aug 18 2005, 12:31 PM
| QUOTE |
| Do you really need 500 HP in a 2000 pound car with a wheelbase of a 914? |
ABSOLUTELY.
Read my blog.
I wouldn't bother with the SBC anymore, If I were doing it from scratch with the right budget, I would be looking for either and LS7 or the BMW M5 Engine (although I expect it to be really heavy).
Posted by: URY914 Aug 18 2005, 12:35 PM
| QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 18 2005, 10:31 AM) | ||
ABSOLUTELY. |
I knew you'd say that
OK, do you need 500 HP for the street? (same answer, I bet)
Paul
Posted by: scott thacher Aug 18 2005, 12:51 PM
no but a stock weight 914 with a 250 hp turbo suby would be great, and would run circles around 95 % of the cars out there
Posted by: JB 914 Aug 18 2005, 12:59 PM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Aug 18 2005, 09:15 AM) |
| I think the SBC's get out-of-hand pretty quick. Do you really need 500 HP in a 2000 pound car with a wheelbase of a 914? You need to up-grade every everything Build a 250-300 HP SBC 914 with a 915 and you're safe. Paul |
as a owner of a SBC 914 i couldn't agree more. 300hp is more than enough to give you an ass kicking thrill.
i've got a 327 that i'm planning on dropping into my 914 after paint. i'm gonna try and keep it around 300hp
and as long as you don't have to smoke the tires your tranny should be fine.
Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2005, 01:00 PM
all of that HP is worthless if you have no place to use or worse yet, don't know how to drive..........
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 01:10 PM
The 78 factory squirels are useless if you cant drive... 
Posted by: spare time toys Aug 18 2005, 01:36 PM
SBC thats to easy folks put it in any and every thing Ho HUM Boring 
I know I am following in Ricks footsteps with the 928 engine so its not uncharted waters. It is also something you dont see every day and can not just go get parts off the shelf to build. But it will have the cool sound of the V8 its going to have the 5 inch long flowmasters 
. I would have done the 6 just because I dont like to follow the normal stick a SBC crowd. Now if I had an old 427 L88 or the AL. block ZL1 OH BABY 
You know what I am trying to say. I follow the crowd but on my own path 
Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 18 2005, 01:40 PM
All cars have a purpose. Mine is Autocrossing on a budget. I would only add maybe 30-40 more ft lbs of torque to be leading the pack of some pretty stiff competition including 2 past National champs.
Truthfully my car is running with in 10ths of a second behind these guys. Yea I admit I'm in Street mod. only because of the cam. But a SBC puts you straight into Prepared.
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 18 2005, 02:58 PM
Heres my opinion.
If I were to do it again, I'd really have a hard time deciding between a Turbo subi or a sbc.
SBC's are cheep, crazy cheap. I can get one in a 914 for 3k, with all new stuff. I can also get one in a 914 in 2 weeks. Easy as pie.
Subi's on the other hand are cheap as well, and as reliable as sbc's are. Only problem is that the wiring schematics are incredibly difficult, and 2 weeks becomes 2 months.
Both can make 500 hp, sbc's are a little simpler to make that hp with, and cheaper.
Then theres the 928 engine.
928's have the ultra uber' cool factor. YOu have the respect, but gawd do you have to work for that respect. Firewall becomes a primary issue. BUt if we look past the difficulties of installation, we have some other problems. The 928 engine's are semi limited in their hp. 300 hp is about all you can get, Theres not much modifications you can do to the engine without spending GOBS of money for a supercharger or other serious modifications. But lets say you have all that.. Or your content with 300hp. Repair cost. 928's are the one of the most expensive engine's to repair.
Now we have a P-6
Commonly the most respected. Its expensive out of the box, and repairs are simular to the 928. But its got gobs of hp avalible. But, its expensive. 10k for 300hp done right just sucks.
Anyways, thats what I think.
andrew
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 18 2005, 03:06 PM
| QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 18 2005, 03:40 PM) |
| ...But a SBC puts you straight into Prepared. |
really? that's not as bad as i remembered it.
i figured a non-factory engine moved you straight to Modified.
all the engine-swap guys i ran with were in E-Modified.
(or Open Street Prepared - for the guys that wanted to try to put down lots of power on DOT rubber - but the only guy in my Region that did that seriously owned a tire store. i think it was the only way he could afford to run his SBC (mightta been a SBF...) 240Z...)
Posted by: URY914 Aug 18 2005, 03:11 PM
Change the engine = modified.
Posted by: Sammy Aug 18 2005, 03:46 PM
As you said this one is completely subjective, but I've had both and IMO the Porsche flat six is a thousand times better.
My V8 made more torque, it made more power, it didn't weigh that much more, it was cheaper to buy and repair and upgrade, but it was just an engine.
The Porsche flat six is more than just an engine. It is mechanical art. It gets to me and makes me feel as if I am ripping up the french countryside in the 24 hours race every time I drive it.
It is so smooth, and gets smoother the higher it revs.
The V8 acted like it resisted revving high, and only did so if I forced it to do so.
The six on the other hand, begs to hit redline. It loves 6000+ rpm, and seems as if it would prefer to be there always.
Add a little postive manifold pressure and it only gets better.
I thought I would really like a V8 914 until the first time I drove mine. That was the only Porsche I've ever owned that I didn't love. In fact I couldn't wait to sell it. Nothing wrong with the car, it was reasonably fast, handled good, and was very reliable. I just didn't care for it. To me it wasn't a sports car anymore.
Others have them and love them, that's good. My experience was just different than that.
Posted by: andys Aug 18 2005, 04:01 PM
914 V8 = supercar performance on a pizza budget. That is, if you follow the proven path. Ok, I mentioned my good friend that just got a P-TT. I think it's 418HP (?). Paid big bucks, but did get a very comfortable GT car you could jump into and drive to Vegas (or choose your destination) without a care. That might be a bit presumptuous with regard to a 914 V8, but doable with a sorted car........but likely a far less comfortable ride.
If I were to envision (since I've never driven one) a 3+ litre 6, I would think it would behave much like an original 6, but with way more power and better handling from a hopefully upgraded suspension. The P-car crowd would mostly be quite ok with this conversion, so if acceptance/staying true to the mark is what you choose, then so be it.
Either direction has it's merits, and from my perspective, both have their strong points.....Do it your way! For sound, well again very subjective........a 6 at full song has a fantastically sofisticated tone. An angry SBC is pretty sweet.....slightly OT story. When my buddy and I ran a stock car roadrace series, we showed for an open practice day. The Interscope team (Danny Ongais/Ted Field) were unloading a prototype when we fired up our 358 cu. in., 180 degree headered, 14:1, Tilton 7" clutched, RPM *RIGHT NOW* SBC, all those guys stopped to take notice...it was actually quite amusing given what they were unloading.
Andy
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 18 2005, 04:24 PM
I have yet to see a fast budget V8 914 AX car.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 04:40 PM
there's more to life than auto cross (blasphemous statement around here)
Once you have the HP to go faster than 70MPH, you get to play on the big tracks too
Imagine actually passing someone, not having to beat them w/ a stopwatch 
Pretty much everytime you add cylinders it sounds better, from a single (lawnmower), to a twin (hardley), to a tripple (triumph motorcycle, wicked sound), to a 4 cyl (fart can honda) to a 6 (topic of discussion here) to an 8(really tough to beat w/ decent exhaust at rpm think nascar at speed 
) to a 10 (Carrera GT) to a 12 (ferrari)
And it sounds like sammy's car had a truck motor in it, a Hi-Po SBC revs really free Lots of power and little rotating weight (comparatively)
Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 18 2005, 04:42 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 03:40 PM) |
| Pretty much everytime you add cylinders it sounds better, from a single (lawnmower), to a twin (hardley), to a tripple (triumph motorcycle, wicked sound), to a 4 cyl (fart can honda) to a 6 (topic of discussion here) to an 8(really tough to beat w/ decent exhaust at rpm think nascar at speed ) to a 10 (Carrera GT) to a 12 (ferrari) And it sounds like sammy's car had a truck motor in it, a Hi-Po SBC revs really free Lots of power and little rotating weight (comparatively) |
you forgot about Audi and Volvo 5 cyl engines....
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 04:45 PM
and probably some 7 and 9 cyl rotaries (airplane motors)
I've never heard a 5 cyl at speed, damned audi's and vulvas are way to quiet for my tastes.
The original side exhaust vipers sounded like 
Reminded me of a UPS truck from the side, sounded fine straight on though
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 18 2005, 04:59 PM
| QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 18 2005, 11:40 AM) |
| But a SBC puts you straight into Prepared. |
Modifed, actually....A Mod if you're over 5 liters. Life is real hard there. You'll get killed by a 800 lb mocycle engined car with WOO wings.
I've never personally seen a decent SBC AXer run....seen some slow ones tho. Most guys don't have any idea what it takes to hook up the power of a 914 mit V8. MikeD is an exception, me thinks. Brett may well do it....he's gonna try rather than dream so I wish him the best of luck.
Posted by: goose2 Aug 18 2005, 06:21 PM
I've driven lots of fours, a couple sixes...and one SBC. When I first drove the V8 (courtesy Camp Craig), I thought "I want it". It was nasty, loud, and blinding fast. It also felt heavy and crude...huge tires with big spacers to fill out the flares made the steering feel like a '60's american muscle car...heavy clutch, imprecise throttle, bone-jarring ride. I thought this was all very cool and was everything a hot rod sports car should be. I still feel that way. After my ride in the crusher, I drove my old 1.7 home. It was light, nimble, well balanced, quiet, smooth, easy to drive and economical. I could actually put my foot to the floor and work it through the gears without risking death or a ticket. I like that too. My point is, the big V8 changes the character of the car. In some ways it's better...some ways worse. It depends on what you like and what you want your car to be. Since I like both ends of the spectrum but can't afford 2....I got a six. I'm happy with it and it does everything I want (although I am adding more power soon). If I could justify owning another car only for the occasional thrill ride, I'd have a V8 in a heartbeat.
Another point...why are almost all the V8 cars using SBC's? I used to have a Sunbeam Tiger with a Shelby spec 289 Ford...much lighter, over 300 hp, 7400 redline, 13 second quarter mile on street tires! I loved that motor. 90% of the world's street rods use the SBC for a reason I guess, but there are alternatives.
Posted by: Dr. Roger Aug 18 2005, 06:36 PM
Fully prepd' SBC. Roller everything. Balanced and injected.
930 tranny.
Fully adjustable suspension/brakes.
FAT rubber.
= Great handling and great cost.
Total cost?>>>>> $_25,000
Reliable, replacement parts purchased at FLAPS =-)))
Fully prepped P powered 914
Great handling and $_________ ?????
I don't know how much the P powered option costs but this is how my brain thinks....
Heck doesn't a 220lb driving teacher in a 6 weigh the same as a single driver w/a SBC?
Honda S2000 engine 100HP per liter. Hmmmmm.... =-)
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 18 2005, 06:53 PM
Grant...
What chu trying to say
Its driver.... I cant drive it gud...
(and im on street tires...)
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 18 2005, 07:33 PM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 18 2005, 04:53 PM) |
| Grant... What chu trying to say Its driver.... I cant drive it gud... (and im on street tires...) |
Actually you do great in that car. Its just that the SBC raises center of gravity and adds a tons of weight. Its too hard to overcome the physics of this car with a SBC unless you add tons of reinforcement to the rear suspension, big tires etc. And then you still have a car that wont get around a tight course as quickly as a lightweight 4 or 6.
I know there are a few well done v8 conversions with proper tranny, beefed up and reinforced rear suspension half shats etc. But most V8 conversions I have seen cant lay into the accelerator without worry about breaking something.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 18 2005, 07:55 PM
Now you're talking about lightweights... the difference is less than a driving instructor for comparable cars. If you wan to throw enough money at it you can go to an aluminum block from donovan and save another 80+lbs, and were into a double digit difference
Sounds like
| QUOTE |
| Its just that the SBC raises center of gravity and adds a tons of weight |
You are comparing a moped to a superbike. Sure you can ride around your backyard quicker on the moped, and it feels so light and flickable on the street
it HAS to be better right? 
My last 914 had a mild 327 in it ~290hp. It was an el-cheapo motor, steel heads, reconditioned stock rods, only spun it to 7k rpm. It was faster around most tracks than the Turbo's and vipers in my run group (just DE's, intermediate group usually, occasional advanced)
It cornered as well as the boxsters, and was damn near as fast as the viper on the straights 
not 1/2 bad for being | QUOTE |
| heavy and crude |
Done right a SBC is as smooth (or smoother) than stock, the handling is un-changed, more reliable, and the power, well it exists. I have video somewhere of Scott M.'s monster fo an orange car blowing by a -6 that was trying to accelerate
It was kinda like video taping your 6 year old riding his bike when Lance Armstrong goes flying by Anyways, i'm going to get a
ro 3 
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 18 2005, 08:15 PM
Untill Chevy made the Z06, Vettes were not good track cars.....without some serious cooling work.
Most all V8 race cars
are drysumped with large oil coolers as that is about the only way to reject enough heat ....now ya don't need to drysump to have an oilcooler, but since it's worth some hp and tends to not allow the oil to "rope" the crank (along with some windage tray/oil scrapper work while you're there), you might as well.
Older style SBCs at extendend hi RPMs also tended to fill their valve covers with oil to the detriment of the bottom end and the valve cover gaskets. Since most 914SBCs overheat on the street, you've got a real problem on the track.
So if you're doing some 914 SBC track car dreaming, crank up the budget a few notches......or prepare for melt down.
The guys in Stock cars/sprint cars have solved these problems and they'll sell you motor....which would be cheaper in the long run.
Now to the 911 6. In the late 60s/early 70s, you could buy a 911S, make the required saftey mods and go do/finish the 24 hours of Le Mans....many folks did.....get it?
Posted by: Brett W Aug 19 2005, 12:12 AM
I am going to do my best Jake impression, (since he and I agree on this), "Its all about the package". (Don't go there Miles)
A properly built four, six, eight, ten, twelve, sixteen, etc will not be cheap. The car to support any of the above engines will not be cheap. If you want the best, don't go cheap andcut corners on Brakes, suspension, tires, or chassis. You can't take a noodle designed for 95hp and expect it not to get tweaked when you quadruple the HP. The 914 chassis is a noodle to start with and in order to take advantage of any engine package you will need the rest of the package built to support it.
I wouldn't bother with a cast iron SBC anymore. IN time the LS1, 2, 6, and 7 will be cheap enough and plentiful for everyone. They weigh about the same as the porsche six, probably less in many cases. The last version of the LS1 race engine weighed in at 330lbs and made over 600hp at 6200rpm with a restrictor. Why kill an engine when you can make that kind of HP at low rpms and have more torque than anyone should legally have.
I have never been a great Vette fan but the new car is a whole new game. Porsche will get their ass handed to them.
Now as to the sound of a high revving Six, can't argue it does sound nice but the new watercooled engines sound better. Most V8s sound better than a six any day. Take a Flat crank V8 and that is probably one of the best sounding engines in the world, next to a flat crank V12.
With a 400hp V8 914 I can put a shitty driver in it an he will wail all over a decent driver with a stock four cylinder. Sorry facts is facts. There is something to be said for pulling GT1 Corvettes down a straight-away. The only thing you will pull down the straight-away in a stock 914-4 or 6 is the recovery vehicle.
If I wanted a six cylinder Porsche I would use a watercooled motor. There is a reason the 959,962, 986, 996, Carrera GT, etc are watercooled. Durability, HP, emissions, and noise. Who wants to hear all that mechanical racket? Thats why Type4s sound like Diesels.
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 19 2005, 01:06 AM
Man, all this piss'n and dis'n...just build, drive, race or drool what you like.
Oh, and twin turbo sixes are better.
Posted by: Bleyseng Aug 19 2005, 07:45 AM
| QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Aug 18 2005, 05:36 PM) |
| Fully prepd' SBC. Roller everything. Balanced and injected. 930 tranny. Fully adjustable suspension/brakes. FAT rubber. = Great handling and great cost. Total cost?>>>>> $_25,000 Reliable, replacement parts purchased at FLAPS =-))) Fully prepped P powered 914 Great handling and $_________ ????? I don't know how much the P powered option costs but this is how my brain thinks.... Heck doesn't a 220lb driving teacher in a 6 weigh the same as a single driver w/a SBC? Honda S2000 engine 100HP per liter. Hmmmmm.... =-) |
'bout $25,000. The thing is the P powered car can be sold for around the 25k the chebbie powered car can't.
Give me a 3.2L six car anyday over a V8 powered one. The ones I have driven were scary fast so it becomes a how fast to you have to go?
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 19 2005, 09:11 AM
I'm going to disagree w/ the SBC not being able to sell for that, have have personally sat in 3 different SBC914's that have sold for more than 25K 
(none of them were mine unfortunately 
)
And if you think it's too fast, more power to you, there are still faster cars. it's just more than you are used to
Posted by: brant Aug 19 2005, 09:38 AM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 03:40 PM) |
| there's more to life than auto cross (blasphemous statement around here) Once you have the HP to go faster than 70MPH, you get to play on the big tracks too Imagine actually passing someone, not having to beat them w/ a stopwatch |
It sounds like your track options are greater where ever your at...
but around here there are many less big track options with a chevy engined car.
You could run DE with a few of the open clubs. (audi, nissan) Those clubs are a little bit smaller and a little bit more laxed about whom they allow in to help them fill their grids.
but strictly DE and not real racing.
for real racing you could run SCCA and expect to be killed by people with 50K into their cars.
If you want to run a chevy (or ford ) V8 in wheel to wheel competition other than SCCA, you had better buy a tiger, cobra, mustang, camaro or something that had that motor in it originally or they WON'T LET YOU PLAY.
so as with most things track related.
you read the rule book and build from there.
A street car may be a whole nother arguement, but If you have the ability to get onto a race track there is no reason to have a powerful car on the street. It is much safer for yourself and those around you to hit 9/10ths or 10/10ths on the track.
brant
Posted by: Sammy Aug 19 2005, 10:08 AM
My V8 914 was fast on the AX track. Faster than it's driver.
Well, actually it ended up that way, at first it was slower than snot.
I put 205-15 victoracers on the back with stock rock hard michelins in front and that made all the difference in the world.
I was able to rotate the car at will with my right foot. No worries about understeer at all and the car was predictable and controllable.
That last time i took it out I finished 7th overall TTOD which doesn't sound all that impressive until you look at the field of 60 cars, 10 of them driven by instructors, and many of them trailer cars that werent even close to street legal. That and the fact that my driving skills suck. It was a OCR PCA event with some hotshots who came up from SDR.
I think I ended up less that 2 seconds behind TTOD, a hopped up (real) 73 RS which took out several cones on his fastest run but wasn't penalized for it. I was a couple seconds ahead of our AX chairman who was driving a trailered 2 liter 914 on slicks with mucho suspension upgrades. My car was the fastest 914 that day. That was also the best AX showing of my illustrious career
One of em came up to me and asked how I could post such fast times with my clutch slipping so bad out of the corners. I told him it wasn't my clutch, it was my back tires
By comparison, my SC would prolly be at least 4 seconds a lap slower than my 914 on the same track.
Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 19 2005, 10:28 AM
Great topic and great ideas/point of views. Here is my .02 worth. At over 1000 HP and over a 1000 ponds of torque in a twin turbo charged twin intercooler v8 914 I have a few things to say from experience HEHEHEHE . First off do your chasse right. I am suffering form not enough re-enforcements resulting in a cracked chasse; I am now in the process of rebuilding with full roll cage. More on that at a later date. My engine is a Chevy 350 with a RH cooling system. Track or street there is no over heating problem. The motor will rev well past 7000 RPM but with even the lowest boost setting of 12 psi there is no reason to with 700 + hp generated from the 12 psi of boost. The turbo system gives great fuel mileage and a very quiet ride as long as you keep your foot out of it. Why so much HP? Because I can. Is it useable power? Depends what your using it for as many have stated earlier. But lets just say there is nothing like putting your foot into it and being pinned back in your seat. Does it cost a lot of money? Sure it does. In any vehicle. The more HP you want the more $$$$ it will cost. Having a high HP 914 is like being a super villain. The good guys (Porsche purists) just don’t see it coming until it’s too late. They get there A$$ kicked and then want to cry with excuses, well your 914 is not a Porsche because it has a v8 in it. I am sure some of you can relate. The bottom line here is that we are all brothers embarking on a common journey that has brought us all here together with one common goal! The thrill of driving a Porsche. Weather your a stocker, or conversion nut like my self we all do it for the same reason we love working on and driving these cars.
Posted by: URY914 Aug 19 2005, 11:50 AM
Feel the love, Brother. 
I'm going to build a 917-30 replica and hang a 914 body on it. 1100-1200 HP.
The PCA will be happy and all my brothers here will be happy.
I'll just have to buy a CNC machine so I can make the engine...any one have any plans?
I'll do that after I install my MASSIVE TYPE-4!!! You see fellas, I'm a purist. I have a 914 with a Type -4 engine. Plane and simple, just the way it came from the factory. Sure, I've done some work to it, but it still has that connection with the past.
Paul
Posted by: skline Aug 19 2005, 12:42 PM
So what is the final word? An I still an accepted member here with my totally modified car? Non stock body, non stock engine in fact, there is nothing stock on my car.
I like the stock 914 however, I just saw a Chalon when I was much younger and wanted one so bad and now I have it. I made the car I wanted. It's still a 914 somewhere in there. Parts of it are anyway.
Posted by: Brett W Aug 19 2005, 01:08 PM
If they won't accept you we can go start our own club.
Posted by: soloracer Aug 19 2005, 01:40 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 02:45 PM) |
| and probably some 7 and 9 cyl rotaries (airplane motors) I've never heard a 5 cyl at speed, damned audi's and vulvas are way to quiet for my tastes. The original side exhaust vipers sounded like Reminded me of a UPS truck from the side, sounded fine straight on though |
Did someone say rotary?
I was going to go turbo but now I'm going to make mine a three rotor peripheral port N/A to keep the plumbing simple. Can you say 450+ RWHP, lighting fast throttle response, 8000 rpm redline and an exhaust note that sounds like a formula one car. However, I did just read about a 4 rotor engine kit that keeps the same dimensions as the 3 rotor......hmmmm....... 
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 19 2005, 01:53 PM
I realllly like rotaries, but they have trouble making TQ, so you have to either go ultra light weight, or play w/ the gearing
A really good friend has an early rx7 that he ran SCCA solo2 for a long time. That is a fun car, and he's nuts behind the wheel 
Drove a rotary powered lotus 7 kit and it would set you back hard. Thing had almost no vibrations at all, even in a lightweight, un-insulated car. Very cool.
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 19 2005, 02:12 PM
Big Corvettes and Camaro's do great on some AX courses as well. Your're just never going to get the balance of a lighter 4 or 6 cylinder 914 in a big clunky/awkward V8 conversion. SBC V8 is great for open road cruising and big long straights. Hell a Cayenne can lap some tracks faster than some 914-6's. Doesnt make it a better car.
I just never understood why anyone would want to ruin a 914 with a big nasty iron block Chevy engine that is always on the verge of overheating.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 19 2005, 02:31 PM
| QUOTE |
| always on the verge of overheating |
HUH? i've watche da 500+ hp SBC lap LVMS for 30 min in uncomfortably warm weather (high 80-low 90's), and when it came into the pits the temp guage read 190. As it sat the temp climbed slightly (heat soak) and peaked right at the 210 mark.
This is measured just after the water leaves the heads (hottest coolant in the car).
What is an Average CHT in a Pors/VW motor? So who is right on the verge of overheating??
And i haven't seen a 14 run down th front straight near as hard as that street car did, including the 14-6 race cars
Posted by: Brett W Aug 19 2005, 02:42 PM
Come on Grant. The SBC is no more lowly, and less endowed than the T4. We are talking tractor motors here. Two valves, pushrods, aircooled, watercooled, all designed in the 40s and 50s. Nothing radical. To bad the T4 is no where near as durable as the SBC.
An engine overheats because the system is not capable of removing the heat from the engine. My T4 would overheat at 80mph on a summer day on the highway. Because my engine would turn 4200rpms. The stock oil cooler could not keep up. The SBC in a 914 that overheats isn't beacause the motor is garbage. The cooling system is just suffering from poor engineering. Same thing happens to a stock 914 when you slap a 911 fan on there.
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 19 2005, 04:22 PM
| QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 19 2005, 12:42 PM) |
| Come on Grant. The SBC is no more lowly, and less endowed than the T4. We are talking tractor motors here. Two valves, pushrods, aircooled, watercooled, all designed in the 40s and 50s. Nothing radical. To bad the T4 is no where near as durable as the SBC. An engine overheats because the system is not capable of removing the heat from the engine. My T4 would overheat at 80mph on a summer day on the highway. Because my engine would turn 4200rpms. The stock oil cooler could not keep up. The SBC in a 914 that overheats isn't beacause the motor is garbage. The cooling system is just suffering from poor engineering. Same thing happens to a stock 914 when you slap a 911 fan on there. |
Just dont get stuck in slow moving traffic on a summer day with that SBC. ...Ouch I know the truth hurts, but at least you'll see some cool hot rods pulled over to the side of the road with you as the air cooled guys breeze by.
Posted by: mrihop Aug 19 2005, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 19 2005, 03:22 PM) |
| Just dont get stuck in slow moving traffic on a summer day with that SBC. ...Ouch I know the truth hurts, but at least you'll see some cool hot rods pulled over to the side of the road with you as the air cooled guys breeze by. :D |
I live in LA traffic with my V8 914. I have a Renegade Hybrids cooling system, and it NEVER goes over 190 in any conditions, and stays at 180 in traffic even now in the summer time....
I invite you to follow me from LA to Vegas up all those hills in 100+ degree weather at 100 mph...we'll see who overheats first.
I know I won't...
Posted by: redshift Aug 19 2005, 04:42 PM
Same trip to Vegas in a motorcoach, at 50 will kill an average man.
M
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 19 2005, 04:44 PM
| QUOTE (mrihop @ Aug 19 2005, 02:32 PM) | ||
I live in LA traffic with my V8 914. I have a Renegade Hybrids cooling system, and it NEVER goes over 190 in any conditions, and stays at 180 in traffic even now in the summer time.... I invite you to follow me from LA to Vegas up all those hills in 100+ degree weather at 100 mph...we'll see who overheats first. I know I won't... |
Can you afford the gas money to drive that far in a SBC? Drove my 1.8 that route more than a few times with no overheating issues and got 36 mpg. So I'd have money to gamble with once we arrived.
Posted by: mrihop Aug 19 2005, 06:11 PM
19 miles per gallon for me last time I did it at 75 mph, and I still don't have an H gear for my tranny....
It didn't bog down on any hill (obviously, being in my optimum torque range the entire time), when I saw a truck's blinker come on, I sped past the trucks instead of dropping to 60 mph for about a minute for a truck to pass like I have to in other cars I drive to Vegas.
Running dual Flowmasters rendered my radio nearly useless at that high of rpm with the wind noise, even with windows up and roof on (rained on me when I took my car up that way).
I wouldn't actually do 100 mph all the way to Vegas. With the stock gearing, my engine would probably tear apart spending 2.5 hours at ~5,000 rpm
...Unless I build a 302 screamer...but then I'd probably loose in town streetability, and I love my car as a fast fun street cruiser.
Posted by: mrihop Aug 19 2005, 06:29 PM
Oh yeah....I've always been a Chevy guy. The big reason I'm into the 914 thing is because of the conversion. I've always had an interest in these little cars, but reading about some of the conversions really lit my fire...
I've built and worked on quite a few SBCs so I'm definately biased towards them.
It's also a neat fact that we're comparing a Chevy engine that is popular as a 350 or 5.7L against the Porsche engines that are in the range of ~3.0L. The power produced by these little engines truely blows my mind. As well as they hold up is pretty amazing too...
The power to displacement ratio of the Porsche engines is usually better than the Chevy, but I guess that can also very based on how deep your pocket is.
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Aug 19 2005, 09:12 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 19 2005, 06:44 PM) |
| Drove my 1.8 that route more than a few times with no overheating issues and got 36 mpg. So I'd have money to gamble with once we arrived. |
I didn't think a VW got that kind of gas mileage. Everyone I had was in the low 20mpg if you drove them at a safe interstate speed.
Bob
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 19 2005, 09:31 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 09:53 AM) |
| please discuss |
i have yet to see a SBC-914 that can keep up with a stock-ish /4 in the twisties of an AX course ...
of course, if you're more interested in going fast in a straight line (yawn, boooooring) then by all means, go for it ...
Andy <- ducking for cover ...
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 19 2005, 09:50 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 19 2005, 07:31 PM) | ||
i have yet to see a SBC-914 that can keep up with a stock-ish /4 in the twisties of an AX course ... of course, if you're more interested in going fast in a straight line (yawn, boooooring) then by all means, go for it ... Andy <- ducking for cover ... |
Me too.
Posted by: 914GT Aug 19 2005, 10:02 PM
| QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 19 2005, 01:42 PM) |
| The SBC in a 914 that overheats isn't beacause the motor is garbage. The cooling system is just suffering from poor engineering. |
Overheating can sometimes be due to engine problems. Insufficient bearing tolerances, rust/corrosion in the water jackets, improper timing, incorrect head/intake manifold gasket installation, or a bad thermostat are some of the things that can cause overheating.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 19 2005, 10:08 PM
AX AX AX.. i once again refer you to my moped analogy. AX is like riding a motorcycle around your back yard... A moped will beat a new Gixxer. Does that mean a moped is better than the Gixxer? I dont think so.
I can push a shoping cart through the aisles at Vons faster than your 914 can negotiate them
Posted by: 914GT Aug 19 2005, 10:09 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 19 2005, 03:22 PM) |
| Just dont get stuck in slow moving traffic on a summer day with that SBC. ...Ouch I know the truth hurts, but at least you'll see some cool hot rods pulled over to the side of the road with you as the air cooled guys breeze by. |
Totally untrue. May be the case with some V8 conversions, but not all. My car runs cool in heavy traffic in 100+ temperatures. If what you say was true then 914 V8 conversions would never get through a summer in southern Arizona. Some of the air cooled engines can't take the heat here either.
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 19 2005, 11:25 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 19 2005, 08:08 PM) |
| AX AX AX.. i once again refer you to my moped analogy. AX is like riding a motorcycle around your back yard... A moped will beat a new Gixxer. Does that mean a moped is better than the Gixxer? I dont think so. I can push a shoping cart through the aisles at Vons faster than your 914 can negotiate them |
What are you....some fuckin' highschool kid trying to start a flame war? You stated your opinion about AX once & nobody gave a shit then. Give it a rest.
Maybe you could add something constructive...like what you are racing now? Maybe a pic of your race car?
Posted by: Mueller Aug 19 2005, 11:34 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Aug 19 2005, 10:25 PM) | ||
What are you....some fuckin' highschool kid trying to start a flame war? You stated your opinion about AX once & nobody gave a shit then. Give it a rest. Maybe you could add something constructive...like what you are racing now? Maybe a pic of your race car? |
thank you !!!!!
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 12:45 AM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 19 2005, 09:08 PM) |
| AX AX AX.. i once again refer you to my moped analogy. AX is like riding a motorcycle around your back yard... A moped will beat a new Gixxer. Does that mean a moped is better than the Gixxer? I dont think so. I can push a shoping cart through the aisles at Vons faster than your 914 can negotiate them |
ok, then let's expand this to your favorite twisty backroad.
i bet ya my 2056 will outrun yer 10000HP super-duper double turbo whatever big block any time of the day.
oh, wait, i forgot you guys only run quarter miles so you don't actually have a favorite twisty backroad, never mind then ...
Andy
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 20 2005, 12:55 AM
Hell I wouldnt even need my 914-4 to lose a V8 conversion on my favorite mountain road. My Toyota Echo could do the job quite effectively.
Posted by: scott thacher Aug 20 2005, 12:59 AM
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 20 2005, 01:40 AM
Wow, you guys are mean!
The v8 dont handle that bad....
seriously....
The v8's are more of a track car. like MOST exotic super cars of this day, They plant very well above 60mph. But try taking a diablo, or need be, a viper on the autox... They push, and push, and throttle oversteer... It takes a good driver to get them around the corners.
914 4's are just foot down, and drive your line. How hard is that?
Sorry... but thats what I think.
Andrew
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 20 2005, 02:18 AM
That's what I like about Brad. He loves race 914's, conversions, and anything people do to improve them...
Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 20 2005, 06:08 AM
Wow where is the all the brotherly love Come on guys. Just because some of us have v8 with some HP does not mean that our 914's don’t handle and handle well. Like I said before, we are here because we love working on and driving the 914. What’s with all the put-downs? I for one did not join this club to be put down about my ideas on what makes a fast and good handling 914. I believe that everyone is entitled to and should be able to express what there ideas are. If you disagree then that’s fine, you are also entitled to you opinion as well. But disagree with some manners and respect. 
Posted by: redshift Aug 20 2005, 06:32 AM
Andy was responding to a single person, with a sarcastic remark.
Don't take that personal, Paul. I see that it was not aimed at you. It would have seemed totally different if he'd said '20000hp Supercharged blah-blah'...
Andrew... I am shocked at you!
914 4's are just foot down, and drive your line. How hard is that?
Look around you. They can all kick our asses, no matter what we drive, where we drive it.
This is the 914 club. It's not the 'motor in your car club'. You don't even have to have ever owned, towed, or driven a 914, much less owned a brand new one, with OEM whatever.
.... but don't let that stop any of you from melting down.
M
Posted by: Mueller Aug 20 2005, 09:18 AM
| QUOTE |
| 914 4's are just foot down, and drive your line. How hard is that? Sorry... but thats what I think. |
Look at many top road racers (Pros), they started off in slow underpowered cars, this make one a better driver....
for some drivers, they need the big motor as a band-aid so that on the straights they can make up for not knowing how to go around a corner
I think a V8 car can handle well and if setup correctly out handle a /4 or /6 if those are not setup correctly or driven poorly themselves.....
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 20 2005, 10:17 AM
Dudes, the idea was NOT to start a flame war, eh?
There's nothingwrong with the 914/SBC concept.....big power in a little car can be a hoot. The challenge is in the execution.
The Silver, alloy block track car that Brad showed pics of a couple years ago was my idea of a well done rig.
The White rig at last years WWC is also right in there.
MikeD's Green AXer is another. I realize that many others are "works in progress"......my shitbox is in that catagory also....but I've been throwing money at it longer
The bottom line here is : If you can't stand the answers to your request for opinions, don't ask. You have every right to disagree, of course, just keep it civil.
Posted by: scott thacher Aug 20 2005, 10:26 AM
| QUOTE |
| for some drivers, they need the big motor as a band-aid so that on the straights they can make up for not knowing how to go around a corner |
mike did you have to aim this one right at me
my problem on the willows, was tires and sway bars. as well as i have never been on a track before. you can ask toast, she could catch me in the turns but if she made one mistake it would take her 2 laps to make up for it enough to catch me. then on the straights i would leave her bad.
yes i need sway bars and tires, and practice
basicly i am saying good handle and power can be traded a little and still have the cars be equal
Posted by: maf914 Aug 20 2005, 12:26 PM
Porsche has been known to build a few point-and-go cars. In some of the historical accounts of the 917/10 and 917/30 Can-Am cars the drivers reported that they didn't handle as well as the McLarens, but that 1,000 HP engine wailing away behind them made up for it. Check out The Unfair Advantage and see what Mark Donohue had to say about that. BTW, that was a pretty good book, as far as auto racing books go.
I always wondered how well the Martini 935-78 Moby Dick handled, compared to the prototypes of its day, like the Porsche 936. It was a pretty big car and fairly heavy with a lot of horsepower. One of my favorites.
Okay, you guys can resume the battle now!
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 12:47 PM
| QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 20 2005, 05:32 AM) |
| Andy was responding to a single person, with a sarcastic remark. |
| QUOTE |
| 914 4's are just foot down, and drive your line. How hard is that? |
so, andrew, have you actually ever tried that? driving a /4 "foot down" and turned in a good time at an AX?
guys, i wasn't trying to insult anybody, i was trying to make a point. i like a nice v8 conversion just as much as the next guy, but ...
- anybody can drive fast in a fast car in a straight line
- good drivers can drive a fast car fast in the twisties
- really good drivers can drive a slow car fast anywhere
*any* car can be driven fast with a skilled driver behind the wheel!
AndyIMHO, if you need 1000HP or 500HP or even 250HP to drive a 914 fast through some country backroads, you're using HP as a substitute for the lack of skill.
that's my opinion, and i'm sticking to it ...
Posted by: Mueller Aug 20 2005, 12:55 PM
| QUOTE |
| mike did you have to aim this one right at me |
hey if the shoe fits...hahahaha
just kidding...I wasn't at Willows, so I cannot aim that remark at you....it is not a generalization, some drivers have exceded the HP level with thier skill and want to step up to the next level.....nothing wrong with more power or "too" much...it's just not needed all the time....
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 20 2005, 01:13 PM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 19 2005, 11:40 PM) |
| Wow, you guys are mean! The v8 dont handle that bad.... seriously.... The v8's are more of a track car. like MOST exotic super cars of this day, They plant very well above 60mph. But try taking a diablo, or need be, a viper on the autox... They push, and push, and throttle oversteer... It takes a good driver to get them around the corners. 914 4's are just foot down, and drive your line. How hard is that? Sorry... but thats what I think. Andrew |
OK you name the AX and I'll bring my Toyota Echo econo car and you bring the v8 914 lets see who sets the best time. At least that way you'll have a chance as I'll be driving a shopping cart
Posted by: Sammy Aug 20 2005, 01:32 PM
Proof postive that if a pure BS statement gets posted on the internet more than 20 times everyone believes it and it suddenly becomes truth.
Examples:
1) AX is real racing
2) V8 914s don't handle well
3) high horsepwer cars can only go straight.
4) you can't turbocharge a 914
Sorry guys, I know how much you want these things to be true, but they are still BS no matter how many people pretend they aren't.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 01:54 PM
| QUOTE (Sammy @ Aug 20 2005, 12:32 PM) |
| Sorry guys, I know how much you want these things to be true, but they are still BS no matter how many people pretend they aren't. |
and that comes from a guy who has this in his signature: "Cindy Sheehan supports terrorism"
yes sir, i take you very, very seriously ...
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 10:24 AM) |
| The 914 brakes are a joke, the 911 stuff is a bolt on, and gives the rotors much more heat handling capabilities so you should be upgrading the brakes anyways |
and exactly *where* did you gather this wisdom?
the stock 914 brakes are more than adequate for a stock car, which is btw. what they were designed for ...
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 18 2005, 12:10 PM) |
| The 78 factory squirels are useless if you cant drive... |
personal experience?
i drove my 914 with a tired old 1.8L for the first 3 1/2 years and it was just as much fun to drive as any other 914.
and during that time i had the chance to drive several v8 914s and /6 914s, some of which had gobs of power.
i even got pretty good at the AX (which is btw. *not* a race but a performance-driving contest) with my car ...
again, i have nothing against v8/v6/flat6/rotary/turbo/whatever conversions.
i have a problem with "Mr. Crazyhippy" coming in here claiming that the 914 in stock form is a underpowered, ill-engineered POS that can only be made worthy by putting in a 500HP SBC ...
that, my friend, i call
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 02:26 PM
Ahh ha I found the nerves
Mr SirAndy
| QUOTE |
| stock 914 brakes are more than adequate for a stock car, which is btw. what they were designed for ... |
Must be the sticky rubber overwhelming the brakes, probably should go back to the factory pizza cutters What brakes are on your car?
| QUOTE |
| i drove my 914 with a tired old 1.8L for the first 3 1/2 years and it was just as much fun to drive as any other 914. and during that time i had the chance to drive several v8 914s and /6 914s, some of which had gobs of power. i even got pretty good at the AX (which is btw. *not* a race but a performance-driving contest) with my car ... |
The 78 squirrel comment was aimed after a HP doesn't help if you cant drive. If you can drive, you can make a stock 914 go fast. You can make a high hp 914 go faster.
| QUOTE |
| i have a problem with "Mr. Crazyhippy" coming in here claiming that the 914 in stock form is a underpowered, ill-engineered POS that can only be made worthy by putting in a 500HP SBC ... |
Dont think i've ever said that. But i will defend it. There's a reason for Raby to be in buisness, ALOT of other people think the cars are underpowered. Porsche (the air cooled kings) no longer makes air cooled cars, because the engineers have done better. The battery above the suspension... Not necesarily bad engineering, but not good engineering either.
There is nothing wrong w/ a stock 914. It can be made WAY WAY better though
MR. Sammy
OUCH
| QUOTE |
| - anybody can drive fast in a fast car in a straight line - good drivers can drive a fast car fast in the twisties - really good drivers can drive a slow car fast anywhere *any* car can be driven fast with a skilled driver behind the wheel! |
So Michael schumacher (assuming he is the best driver in the world) can take a Toyota Echo and still win in F1?
Why not?
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 02:28 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 20 2005, 07:18 AM) |
| Look at many top road racers (Pros), they started off in slow underpowered cars, this make one a better driver.... for some drivers, they need the big motor as a band-aid so that on the straights they can make up for not knowing how to go around a corner I think a V8 car can handle well and if setup correctly out handle a /4 or /6 if those are not setup correctly or driven poorly themselves..... |
I will agree w/ this 100%
Some people are no longer starting out though
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 02:39 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Aug 19 2005, 09:25 PM) | ||
What are you....some fuckin' highschool kid trying to start a flame war? You stated your opinion about AX once & nobody gave a shit then. Give it a rest. Maybe you could add something constructive...like what you are racing now? Maybe a pic of your race car? |
Aparantly someone does give a shit
As for what i'm racing, believe it or not, it's not a SBC powered 914
It isn't grossely overpowered and overweight
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 02:41 PM
It's is roughly 10HP (not bad for 40cc's) and is faster than the tracks it's ridden on. this was taken at the cart track just south of Vegas
Attached image(s)
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 20 2005, 02:47 PM
midsouthminimoto.com
aha.
it suddenly all falls into place...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 20 2005, 02:51 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 12:26 PM) |
| So no one needs anything beyond the stock brakes? I've experianced brake fade bad enough that i pulled off track with sticky tires and a carbed 1.7 Must be the sticky rubber overwhelming the brakes, probably should go back to the factory pizza cutters There's a reason for Raby to be in buisness, ALOT of other people think the cars are underpowered. |
Maybe a better question is how could you toast the brakes on a 1.7? I'm starting to understand why you need the v8!
..and remember Jake readily admits he doesnt have many 914 customers - the number of 4's greatly out numbers modified cars - most people recognize that a V8 in this car completely defeats the purpose of the car.
I just have never understood why anyone would want an abortion of an American junk heap in their fine Porsche automobile.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 02:58 PM
Damned little bikes are a blast I bought the bike (3 of them so far) from midsouth as they had the best prices on the 1st and the service brought me back
But i like Horsepower i cant know anything about keeping exit speeds high 
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 03:14 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 12:51 PM) |
| Maybe a better question is how could you toast the brakes on a 1.7? I'm starting to understand why you need the v8! ..and remember Jake readily admits he doesnt have many 914 customers - the number of 4's greatly out numbers modified cars - most people recognize that a V8 in this car completely defeats the purpose of the car. I just have never understood why anyone would want an abortion of an American junk heap in their fine Porsche automobile. |
Turn 5 @ LVMS had me going from the top of 4th gear to the top of 2nd, It was the hardest braking zone for meand when hte track got some temp in it, and the tires were warm, i could cook the brakes in 5-6 laps. Tried to ease up and brake earlier adn it wasn't working... had to STAND on the pedal one lap to get whoaed down enough and that was it. Not sure if i boiled the brake fluid or burnt up the pads. The next weekend i was installing 911 vented stuff and now carrying 45mph more into the corner (and 130lbs more) i do not have the same problem
As far as the "abortion of an American Junk heap" It fits in nicely in the abortion of a porsche automobile
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 03:14 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:26 PM) |
| So no one needs anything beyond the stock brakes? I've experianced brake fade bad enough that i pulled off track with sticky tires and a carbed 1.7 Must be the sticky rubber overwhelming the brakes, probably should go back to the factory pizza cutters |
i never said there aren't situations when the stock brakes are not good enough anymore.
however, that usually involves "a lot" of other non-stock parts on the car to be true.
you, on the other hand, made a general statement regarding the stock brakes being a joke "The 914 brakes are a joke", which i strongly disagree with.
as i said, "the stock 914 brakes are more than adequate for a stock car" if in good working condition. which might have been part of your problem ...
| QUOTE |
| What brakes are on your car? |
which only proves that i was young & dumb like you once ...
actually, i had been playing with the idea of a bigger /6 motor in which case upgrading the brakes would be a good thing.
the motor never happened and the brakes are definately *total overkill* for my current ~120HP 2056 ...
Andy
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 03:18 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:14 PM) |
| "the stock 914 brakes are more than adequate for a stock car" if in good working condition. which might have been part of your problem ... Andy |
If you add when being driven on the street i'll agree.
They do not cut it on the track. They do not have the capability to handle the heat generated repeatedly.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 03:24 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 02:18 PM) |
| If you add when being driven on the street i'll agree. They do not cut it on the track. They do not have the capability to handle the heat generated repeatedly. |
now we're getting somewhere ...
you conveniently forgot to mention the "on the racetrack" part in your initial post ...
Andy
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 20 2005, 03:33 PM
My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are. And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate.
And as far as "real" racing goes I think you would find real race car drivers would opt for a little less output and more balance when they are in a "real" race.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 03:36 PM
Adequit brakes would be adequit everywhere. Eswpecially on a sports car that is likely to be used on the track.
I porsches defense w/ the tire technology available in the 70's the brakes might have been ok. Since 90% of the cars here (probably higher as the only people still on old tires are the concourse hardcores) on modern tires, the brakes no longer are enough.
On the street they'll be ok, you shouldn't be above 5-6 10ths. They might be ok autocrossing as well, as they are loaded for 45 sec or so, and then given a few minutes to cool. Beyond that however...
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 03:42 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 02:36 PM) |
| Eswpecially on a sports car that is likely to be used on the track. |
this might come as a surprise to you, but the overwhelming majority of 914s are *not* driven on the racetrack ...
Andy
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 03:43 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 01:33 PM) |
| My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are. And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate. And as far as "real" racing goes I think you would find real race car drivers would opt for a little less output and more balance when they are in a "real" race. |
hell that's the whole reason i ride the Pocketbike.. when you sit on it naked it makes my dick look HUGE
I'm guessing you haven't driven a reasonably sorted v-8 car. The weight difference is about the same as putting a passenger in your car
and the balance is the same as a 914-6. We all know how famously bad the 914-6 handles Nice try though
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 20 2005, 03:44 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:36 PM) |
| Adequit brakes would be adequit everywhere. Eswpecially on a sports car that is likely to be used on the track. I porsches defense w/ the tire technology available in the 70's the brakes might have been ok. Since 90% of the cars here (probably higher as the only people still on old tires are the concourse hardcores) on modern tires, the brakes no longer are enough. On the street they'll be ok, you shouldn't be above 5-6 10ths. They might be ok autocrossing as well, as they are loaded for 45 sec or so, and then given a few minutes to cool. Beyond that however... |
The stock brakes are more than adequate for a stock 4. My 914 ran back to back 20 minute sessions on Streets of Willow with absolutely no fade. And that was with John Williamson driving the car in the session before mine. I have also had long backroad sections down steep mountain passes with absolutely no fade and thats with r compound tires. But thats the difference in somone who bleeds the brakes and keeps fresh pads on the car and someone who ignores their brakes. If you tend to ignore your brakes then upgrade is definitely in order.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 03:47 PM
Understood SirAndy, but the car was designed and built to be...
And an excellent shot at me Grant. Misguided but a nice shot none the less.
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 20 2005, 03:54 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 01:43 PM) | ||
hell that's the whole reason i ride the Pocketbike.. when you sit on it naked it makes my dick look HUGE I'm guessing you haven't driven a reasonably sorted v-8 car. The weight difference is about the same as putting a passenger in your car and the balance is the same as a 914-6. We all know how famously bad the 914-6 handles Nice try though |
Everyone knows a passenger in the car is worth at least a second in an AX.
...and I wasnt refering to size of your unmentionables with the Corvette comment! Everyone knows Corvette drivers need all that power because they dont know how to drive.
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 20 2005, 04:15 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 20 2005, 01:54 PM) |
| Everyone knows Corvette drivers need all that power because they dont know how to drive. |
You really need to get out more, Grant.
I had Tom Kotzian jump into my car at a SCCA practice session
recently......he's a former 3 time national champ in SS.
He hadn't driven a 914 in about 15 years. After a quick refresher course on the 914 shift pattern in the lanes, he knocked a second off my best time...on his first pass.
...a 27 vs my 28 sec pass.....a lifetime on such a short course.
I've got 100 bucks that says you can't do the same.
I figure you were doing a bit of bench racin' with that comment, but I run against Vette types all the time and there are some fast mofos out there.
Posted by: Brett W Aug 20 2005, 05:02 PM
There is a local guy that runs in stock class with all manner of Vettes. Early C4s through late model Z06s. His times are usually FTD or close to it. He has brought out everything from stock S2000 to a Stock POS Fiero and put down top times of the day before. Driver is everything in autocross.
But you get on a big track and that ain't always so.
Grant since you enjoy your four cylinder and feel that you don't need anymore to go as fast as the Trans AM boys, that's cool.
| QUOTE |
| My sense is that V8 conversion guys are just trying to make up for ..well the same thing Corvette drivers are. And I'm sure the V8 conversion guys can out argue this 6 verses 8 topic as they have lots of practice arguing the endless Ford verses Chevy debate. biggrin.gif |
And the six cylinder conversion guys must have the same problem. If Porsche designed that four cylinder it must be the end all be all of four cylinders? Get real the car was a budget partnership with VW. The engine is a VW motor, the chassis is Porsche design Karmen produced, OK Porsche doesn't have any love for the car for that reason.
As far as brakes go, Porsche's current braking test and criteria go something like this. Run the car up to top speed as fast as possible, lock the car down and come to a halt, repeat the afformentioned 10-15 times. If the brakes fade once, start the engineering process over again. Now for the stock 914 brakes they probably could handle this because the car is so damn slow in stock form that the brakes would have time to cool in between 110mph top speed runs. But for the rest of the world with a decent HP-wieght ratio brakes are a problem. Most production cars don't have enough (Volvo and Porsche exempted). Sticky tires will overheat stock porsche rakes on the street if you drive hard enough.
I like V8s, I like sixes, I like any conversion that is well done and properly thought out. I don't like rag out ass four bangers that smoke, overheat and drop valves. My Honda could outrun most of the stock 914s on the autocross course. All 104hp from the 1.6 litre motor and still run down the street and get 42mpg.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 05:19 PM
| QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 20 2005, 04:02 PM) |
| My Honda could outrun most of the stock 914s on the autocross course. |
first, i doubt that. second, how old is your honda? i don't see too many 35 year old hondas giving brand new porsches a run for their money anywhere. i do, however, see 35 year old 914s do just that at any event i attend.
i just don't buy into this "underpowered" crap.
sorry guys, IMHO, learn how to drive before you complain about not having enough HP ...
sure, i could add a /6 with 200 more HP and maybe shave off a second or two on average, but that wouldn't make me a better driver, now would it?
that's why i'm going to run my 2056 for at least another 2 seasons.
the car has a lot more potential still.
it's not the lack of HP that's holding me back right now, it's the lack of skill on the drivers part.
until that has improved, no additional HP for me ...
Andy
Posted by: redshift Aug 20 2005, 05:37 PM
I see Andy's point... I mean... what if we were in Germany, and they were slagging AMC Pacers?
Shame...
I need more research, after a 14 hour nap.
M
Posted by: Brett W Aug 20 2005, 06:14 PM
I haven't seen stock 914 win anything at the Solo 2 Runoffs in a very long time. My Civic is a 90si. The 4th gen cars 88-91 are, and have dominated STS for several years now. I am not a "Honda is the best car in the world" person but it is in the same boat as the teener. A fun sporty car that has about the same power to weight ratio and just as much potential. But nonetheless, it is kinda relevent to this conversation.
So it is your premise, that until you are a F1 grade world class championship driver, you don't deserve anything more than 100hp. Based on that logic until you have a Doctorate and 25+ years experience in your chosen career path you should not be able to become a millionaire.
The "lack of HP makes you a better driver" arguement is asinine. I want 500+hp. So what. I can assure you any V8 I build will handle far better than the stock 4 cylinder car. Otherwise there is no reason to build one. My four cylinder car was nice, it would easily pull 1g on the pad. But it would get walked on by a stock SHO when I was trying to pass someone on the highway. It is cool to be able to walk all over a Vetter, 996, Boxster, etc in the twisties. Part of that is not everyone has the balls to hang it out through there, I am pretty sure that the cars can handle it, it is the owner that isn't interested in pushing it. But most of the time you don't bump into those people in the twisties, it is usually a city street or on the interstate, where all the handling in the world won't let you win.
I wrecked my car because I would do what ever it took to beat someone through the twisties, but if I had had another 100+hp I would have never had to worry about the twisties. I would have had him from the red light.
I was playing with a fellow one day in my civic (200k miles, wore out suspension etc). He was driving a new GTI with a VR6. We passed each other given it hell up one of the good twisties around here. So we stop at the top and see about a little game of lead follow. I would get him in the corners and he would walk away from me on the straights. You know what, that is the most frustrating thing on the planet. Nailing an Apex and watching the guy with 150 extra hp fuck that apex up and still pull 10 car lenghts on you. Wow all the handling in the world won't make up that kind of difference.
But the whole topic was six vs. eight. No body here care about the four. If you are reading this you either have or want one. Trying to convice someone that all the HP in the world won't make you a better driver is kind of a moot point. I'm sorry but a 95-140hp 914 is boring after about 4hours. I know I've had two. Now I want something a little more fun.
Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 20 2005, 06:43 PM
Brett is wright. We all want more fun. More HP = More fun. That’s why I built my bastard 914. When I get too use to the power or some one makes the mistake of trying to pass me weather it be on a straight or in the twisties I just turn up the boost and its a hole different beast. Trust me. Driving a high HP 914 takes a lot of skill, fast reflexes, and big balls to hold on to it in the corners. I am sure that moving form a stock 4 to a high power v8 would make the best of you wet your pants.
Posted by: redshift Aug 20 2005, 07:15 PM
I had a V8, because after 4-5 hours of drving a 4, you dream of one... you know.. and so it was a 383/425 and you could... 
spin the wheels pretty much anytime, and it loped on idle, like getting a back rub from a tank, and hated cops, and was safety orange, and even with big rubber, the back end would start the death snap too early for me to squirt the same old curves, at speed, no matter how we set the ride up.
I am not a track guy. I like short visability, and exciting suprises... in the wild.
(that aren't shaped like Bambi)
It's all different driving styles. I had DTSS.. deadly teener.. spinny syndrome..
M
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 07:22 PM
| QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 20 2005, 05:14 PM) |
| it is usually a city street or on the interstate, where all the handling in the world won't let you win |
now i see where you're coming from and why you most certainly need a 500HP SBC in your 914.
we're obviously driving these little cars for completely different reasons ...
Andy (who has just as much fun with a 100HP 914)
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 07:29 PM
| QUOTE (turbo914v8 @ Aug 20 2005, 05:43 PM) |
| Trust me. Driving a high HP 914 takes a lot of skill, fast reflexes, and big balls to hold on to it in the corners. I am sure that moving form a stock 4 to a high power v8 would make the best of you wet your pants. |
i'm glad you got those BIG BALLS to hang onto. would hate to see you in the ditch or worse.
me, i prefer to keep both hands on the steering wheel, but that's just me ...
i have driven a ~750HP 914 v8. sorry, didn't wet my pants. in fact, it was fun to drive.
i did, however hold on for dear life when Rich Bontempi (who won countless races in his 1.8L 914) took me for a ride in his race-prepped viper ...
Andy
Posted by: Brett W Aug 20 2005, 08:10 PM
Andy, I drive a 914 for a couple of reasons:
1. It can be one of the best handling cars on the planet if done right.
2. No one can hang with me in the twisties.
3. I never pass myself or park beside myself.
4. People don't know what it is.
5. Did I say I have to have a car that handles, stops, and GOES.
I have a feeling our reasons are very similar. Are you going to tell Porsche that the Carrera GT is a failure as a car because it doesn't rely totally on driver skill? How about the F40, no traction control, no ABS, nothing but a stout motor, huge brakes and a tight chassis. The 914 is an economy sports car that has many flaws, but the options and advantages of the car in my mind offset those problems. I will continue building 914s, mine will have lots of HP and brakes and world class handling. These are the things in my mind what makes a Porsche a Porsche (not VW).
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 20 2005, 09:39 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 20 2005, 03:19 PM) | ||
first, i doubt that. second, how old is your honda? i don't see too many 35 year old hondas giving brand new porsches a run for their money anywhere. i do, however, see 35 year old 914s do just that at any event i attend. i just don't buy into this "underpowered" crap. sorry guys, IMHO, learn how to drive before you complain about not having enough HP ... sure, i could add a /6 with 200 more HP and maybe shave off a second or two on average, but that wouldn't make me a better driver, now would it? that's why i'm going to run my 2056 for at least another 2 seasons. the car has a lot more potential still. it's not the lack of HP that's holding me back right now, it's the lack of skill on the drivers part. until that has improved, no additional HP for me ... Andy |
Why are you running a 2056? I assume you blew up (or wore out) a stocker and needed a bit more, so you take the next step.
And you also say in 2 years you want more HP
So upgrade and get used to it, upgrade and get used to it.... One day you will need to upgrade into a V-8 (or a late model P-car 6 which will do the same basic thing while only costing 3X more
I think you are getting it.
I also get a kick out of the 4cyl guys comparing cars w/ hondas, while the v-8 guys are comparing cars w/ vipers, ferrari's, New Vet's etc... It has been said you are judged by the company you keep
Posted by: Brett W Aug 20 2005, 09:52 PM
I don't have a four cylinder 914 anymore. I am in the process of building a 4.0 V8 car. Maybe you missed this:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=blog&MID=1169&PHPSESSID=1f953d95b2fdd36e22deba8e98974474
Now I compared it to a Honda because I have a turbo civic as well. Soon I will have two V8 cars one street and one race. Neither will be based on a production car.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 10:04 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 20 2005, 08:39 PM) |
| I think you are getting it |
no, au contraire, i think you're *not* getting it ...
the 1.8L was tired and the 2056 came along, no big deal. i could have bought and installed a SBC 350 for the same amount of money i paid for the 2056 but i choose not to.
it is too bad that some guys (like you) seem more interested in the bragging rights about how much HP their car has and how BIG their balls are, than actually being interested in the 914 as a classic sports car.
of course we all know that a high HP engine in your car means you have huge balls and you're for sure a manly man ...
maybe you should stick with your american iron and leave the 914s to the guys who can enjoy them for what they are ...
Andy
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 21 2005, 12:48 AM
I had my 914 for a good year on the stock engine.
I considered a couple things.
I had a dyno'd 55hp to the rear wheels on a 2.0....
I had 2 considerable options.
T4: Spend 3k and build an engine that had about 140hp, Either built 4 or turbo. I would still have the reliability that I had. None.
Or: Spend 3k and build a reliable, and infinately fast(more hp=more $$) v8 (only in the straights ).
I considered my options.
I considered what I could do.
I considered what I really liked.....
I talked it over with my parents....
Then one day my engine (after adjusting the valves) just went crazy... it had no power, no idle.. ext. Normal symtoms, some should be fixed after adjusting the valves... but I made it worse. Told myself I cant do this, I hate this engine, and decided to do a conversion. I mulled over the options....
6 is to much money for me.
v6 has balancing issues
subi 2.0 140hp
subi 6, 160hp
subi turbo's Never been done.
Each of these engine's where conversions that for the most part where in my budjet and where for sale durring the 1 year that I was looking for a replacement power source.
Then someone mentioned v8. I think it was brad.... He told me how much I could do it for... Then Scott gave me a great offer, then another guy gave me a great offer... and I said heck.. Lets do it.
Now that its said and done, I've ridden in 6's. I've driven 4's. I personally love hot rods,
my car is a hot rod, and I love it.
No it might not handle like a light weight T4 with hoosiers and suspension...
Its not light weight, I have YET to do my weight mods,
It doesnt have hoosiers, Its running regular street tires.
And It Does need more rear suspension work. Im pushing.
Give me a year.
I just finished with reliability and school.
Now I have a little bit of time, and money.
btw, andy, I dont think the v8's guys are trying to go for the "classic sports car..." I dont even think that your car qualifys....
I think the v8 guys are going for a hot rod/exotic supercar mix.
Maybe thats just me.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 21 2005, 01:17 AM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 20 2005, 11:48 PM) |
| I dont even think that your car qualifys.... |
why? because it has a 916 body kit on it?
let's see, the car is a '70, the factory build the 11 916s in '72.
i don't see a problem there ...
i don't mind v8 conversions. hot rod all you want. it's your car. no problem.
just don't tell me that the only way the 914 is *worthy* and *fun* is with a 350 in it ...
if you have to run around telling everybody how big your balls are because you dare to drive a 914 with a v8 in it, fine ...
just don't expect anything but a
from me ... Andy
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 21 2005, 01:30 AM
Alrighty, I see your point on your car.
And the four cylander does give it a more sports car feeling. (rev it to go)
I dont remember seeing anyone say that the v8 is the only way...
I must say that on the track, I think that the v8 vs a simularly prepaired 4 (same cash involved) would do much better.
Heck, my v8 is my error fixer on the autox.... lol... Im not the best driver out there (by far)
Im not even the worst! Im somewhere in the middle. With little hope of being the best.
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 21 2005, 08:41 AM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Aug 20 2005, 02:15 PM) | ||
You really need to get out more, Grant. I had Tom Kotzian jump into my car at a SCCA practice session recently......he's a former 3 time national champ in SS. He hadn't driven a 914 in about 15 years. After a quick refresher course on the 914 shift pattern in the lanes, he knocked a second off my best time...on his first pass. ...a 27 vs my 28 sec pass.....a lifetime on such a short course. I've got 100 bucks that says you can't do the same. I figure you were doing a bit of bench racin' with that comment, but I run against Vette types all the time and there are some fast mofos out there. |
JP I'd hate to see what my grandma would do to your time if she drove your car.
Back to V8 discussion. Its just wrong to put such a crude heavy power plant into an incredibly balanced car that has decades of race heritage. You pretty much end up with a bubba mobile that contstantly needs fix'n. It doesnt take more than looking at Andyrews SCCA video to see him break something after an easy AX run.
..and if I was going to ruin my car with a non Porsche engine I wouldnt consider a V8. I'd probably go with a 250+ HP bike engine.
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 21 2005, 08:50 AM
The little old lady from....Santa Cruz?
I let lotso people AX my car. No ladies have stepped up yet.
You or your grandma can be first.
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 21 2005, 08:59 AM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Aug 21 2005, 06:50 AM) |
| The little old lady from....Santa Cruz? I let lotso people AX my car. No ladies have stepped up yet. You or your grandma can be first. :D |
JP we have a few ladies down here who would drive your car and probably drive it faster than either you or me.
One more thought on SBC. I'm sure Dr. Porsche must be turning over in his grave knowing that people have put iron block V8's in this car. Its wrong in a karma-tic sense as well. I feel ill when I see these 914's butchered with a big clunky V8 protruding into space where it was never intended to be. These cars should only be allowed at the drag strip and banned from any type of motorsports where they come in contact with real Porsches. I just have no tolerance for people who thumb their noses at the convention set by Dr. Porsche and years of racing expereince.
I guess it would be differnt if Dr. Porsche had grown up on a corn farm in the South and almost went blind from drinking moonshine. Maybe then he would have seen the humor in this activity.
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Aug 21 2005, 09:24 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 21 2005, 10:59 AM) |
| [ One more thought on SBC. I'm sure Dr. Porsche must be turning over in his grave knowing that people have put iron block V8's in this car. Its wrong in a karma-tic sense as well. I feel ill when I see these 914's butchered with a big clunky V8 protruding into space where it was never intended to be. These cars should only be allowed at the drag strip and banned from any type of motorsports where they come in contact with real Porsches. I just have no tolerance for people who thumb their noses at the convention set by Dr. Porsche and years of racing expereince. I guess it would be differnt if Dr. Porsche had grown up on a corn farm in the South and almost went blind from drinking moonshine. Maybe then he would have seen the humor in this activity. |
He really would turn over in his grave after watching the new Z06 Corvette lap the Nurburg ring faster than any 996 Turbo GT2 Porsche ever has.
This was a stock Corvette on street tires. It set a lap record of 7 mins and 42 sec.
Bob
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 21 2005, 09:28 AM
No shit?
The NW is blessed with a number of female AXers who are SCCA National champs & trophy winners. How many of those do you run against? You would if you did some SCCA.
There was a woman at Mather running a BP 70s Vette beast
that was hella quick....national champ I heard. GGR prolly wouldn't let her run.....and you're are trying to teach me PC?
I can think of one of them up that might be able to pull off what Tom did......she's a former FPL champ in a 914. Given a few passes, I'm sure she could out run me.....but first shot out of the box is a maybe. Tom wasn't even working, he was just showing me his lines.
When you get a six in your car...if you go with my recommendation for the 10:1 deal, you'll find it a very different driving experience.
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 21 2005, 09:35 AM
| QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ Aug 21 2005, 07:24 AM) |
| This was a stock Corvette on street tires. It set a lap record of 7 mins and 42 sec. Bob |
Damn.
I can remember whem Phil Hill broke 9 minutes is his F1 car....
he broke the lap record by 19 sec.
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 21 2005, 09:40 AM
| QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ Aug 21 2005, 07:24 AM) | ||
He really would turn over in his grave after watching the new Z06 Corvette lap the Nurburg ring faster than any 996 Turbo GT2 Porsche ever has. This was a stock Corvette on street tires. It set a lap record of 7 mins and 42 sec. Bob |
Naw Carrera GT put 10 seconds on that junk heap.
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Aug 21 2005, 10:27 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 21 2005, 11:40 AM) |
| [Naw Carrera GT put 10 seconds on that junk heap. |
The new Carrera GT is also $475K. Gm is working on a supercharged version of the Z06 with a 200 HP increase with more track ready suspension. This will be a match for the Carrera.
Buy the new supercharged Corvette and with the left over change buy 25 to 30 Toyota Echos and we could all go Auto crossing.
Bob
Posted by: LvSteveH Aug 21 2005, 10:39 AM
That is only a 2% time differential on a car that is nearly 10% of the cost... that is absolutely astounding. When you consider what it costs to maintain a GT compared to the Vette, it is even more impressive. Too bad I don't like them.
I can just never recall getting that warm and fuzzy feeling after seen a Vette. Imagine what you'd feel like if you spotted a Carrera GT at your local grocery store.
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Aug 21 2005, 10:45 AM
I saw a new Carrera GT last week driving around N.Georgia. Don't know if the Guy was drinking moonshine or not,but sure looked like he was having fun.
Bob
Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 21 2005, 12:56 PM
Ok you win, I just pucked up a stock 914 2.0 L and I am now selling my 914 bastard. I want to play race car driver with the real men.
Posted by: Brett W Aug 21 2005, 12:57 PM
| QUOTE |
| One more thought on SBC. I'm sure Dr. Porsche must be turning over in his grave knowing that people have put iron block V8's in this car. |
The Ferrari F50 had a cast iron block.
The SBC is an old standby. Are you going to bitch when someone puts an LS1-7 in the car? What about a 4 litre Lexus? Maybe you think that the Carrera GT goes against what Dr Porsche stood for? OMG a big clunky V10. Oh the Horror.
I don't necessarily agree that a small block will destroy the handling of a car. Why don't you look at the Trans AM cars. They all run small blocks, and handle great.
If you really want to see some cool shit (Grant not included) check out www.glennbunch.com. Guy built a 528 Hemi Challenger to run in IMSA. Car weighed 2450 with 32 gallons of fuel. After seeing this car run I can ssure you it ain't slow in the corners.
I just don't fall into this stupid belief that just because you have a big HP motor that you have some how totally destroyed tour fine sporty car. The 911 is bass ackwards and yet no one knocks its success. Is the 911 turbo and 935 no longer a fine sports car because they have a bunch of HP?
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 21 2005, 02:39 PM
Um.....
What about the 918?
Seemed like the dr. liked that car a bit.
Posted by: LvSteveH Aug 21 2005, 03:18 PM
I think it should be pointed out that every chassis has a maximum effective horsepower. Of course some of the elements are tire size, limited slip, and suspension setup, but there is still a point at which more power actually diminishes the dynamics of the car.
Lingenfelter built a twin turbo 700+hp C5 corvette that improved only negligibly over the stock numbers in acceleration, and I'm sure would not do anything for the car at the track.
Having a twin turbo SBC in a 914 with 1000hp is great for bench racing, but where is it practical or even beneficial in any capacity? Do you accelerate appreciably faster than if you only had 500hp in your car? I doubt it.
The 914 seems to me to love around 200hp. It just seems balanced there. Anything over 400hp in a street driven 914 seems to me to be more about bragging rights than anything usable. Dedicated track cars are of course another story all together.
A 2100 pound 914 with 300hp, a nicely tuned suspension, and decent tires would be just about perfect on the street and entirely capable on the track, just ask the guys running a 3.6L six. If properly geared and setup, that would net 12 second quarter mile times AND great handling in a car that can be comfortable enough for the street. That's Viper, Z06, and GT2 territory on a postman's budget.
And there is no reason the same 300 hp couldn't come from a well prepped 302 V8 with aluminum heads that spins to 7500 rpm just like the porsche.
Just my .02 cents.
Posted by: startsw/p Aug 21 2005, 08:04 PM
If you were building an airplane, which would you rather have? If you were building a truck? I agree with sammy, its the whole feeling of the six. Sure SBC's sound cool too, but its like a beatiful woman with a man's voice. The BMW engine is a cool twist though, they make the most HP per litre.
Posted by: Dan_F Aug 22 2005, 01:51 PM
Wow, this discussion turned into an argument.
My experience is very limited, I rode in a race prepared 914-6 for the poker run at WCC '05 and it was amazing to say the least. A couple weeks ago I rode in GWN7's V8 conversion when he was coming through. Also amazing. I have only ever driven a 1.8 four and still love it after riding in both of the faster cars.
I have been thinking what I would do when my 1.8 eventually quits.
They both sound awesome, they both haul ass, they were both loud, rode rough and handled better than most street cars. The 6 felt faster although I think it was because of the more peaky power.
One of the reasons I bought a 914 was because there are so many options on what to do with them and so many people with different tastes that own and modify them. I just wonder, assuming for the same cost and with the same reliability you could have a 250hp 4, 6, or 8 would the arguments still be the same?
I would prefer the 6, personally. It's not the cheapest, not necessarily the fastest, maybe not even the coolest, but it seems the most right to me.
My $0.02
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 22 2005, 02:24 PM
| QUOTE (Dan_F @ Aug 22 2005, 03:51 PM) |
| ...assuming for the same cost and with the same reliability you could have a 250hp 4, 6, or 8 would the arguments still be the same? |
as long as piston engines make power over about 120 degrees of crankshaft rotation, a 4 is never going to be as smooth as a 6. (the contra-rotating Lanchester balance shafts a la 944 come real close...)
the only real problem i have with 8's is the quality of the TYPICAL implementation. they CAN be done well. i've seen a few that HAVE been done well. but it seems that most people have (historically) viewed the V8 as cheap power and cobbled things together, cut corners, not thought things through, and employed excessive backyard engineering.
i'd rather see a properly done V8 conversion than a shitbox 6 conversion any day.
the cost of PROPERLY adding power to ANY car is not going to be cheap.
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 22 2005, 03:39 PM
| QUOTE (startsw/p @ Aug 21 2005, 06:04 PM) |
| Sure SBC's sound cool too, but its like a beatiful woman with a man's voice. The BMW engine is a cool twist though, they make the most HP per litre. |
Not sure of your other analogies but most people don't consider the 914 to be "beautiful" ...
are you saying the 914 itself or that the engine sounds like a girl?
All,
Let's agree that everyone has their own interpretations and preferences.
Posted by: aircooledboy Aug 22 2005, 03:56 PM
Hmmmm........
Some "interesting" perspectives offered here. I realized long ago that SBC conversions are in the same class as religion and politics around here. You are never gonna change anybody's mind, so save your breath. It did make me laught when Hippy got jumped on for jabbing the AX guys, but Grant gets a pass on the repeated, indefensibly inflammatory insults.
I have been driving 914's for over 25 years now. I've had 9 of them, including every stock engine configuration to leave the factory. I think I'm a pretty skilled driver, I don't think the size of my balls is related in any way to the car I drive, and I think I have my fair share of common sense. My current 1.7 was my good weather DD for 3 years, and I pushed that car to it's limits many times on some nice twisties I drive regularly. But now that I have the V8 car completely sorted, the 1.7 just gathers dust. I see all of the comical classic "here's why an SBC sucks" myths restated here as though they were truth. All I know is that V8 is more fun than, and handles as well as, any 914 I've ever driven.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 22 2005, 04:21 PM
| QUOTE (LvSteveH @ Aug 21 2005, 01:18 PM) |
| Having a twin turbo SBC in a 914 with 1000hp is great for bench racing, but where is it practical or even beneficial in any capacity? Do you accelerate appreciably faster than if you only had 500hp in your car? I doubt it. The 914 seems to me to love around 200hp. It just seems balanced there. Anything over 400hp in a street driven 914 seems to me to be more about bragging rights than anything usable. Dedicated track cars are of course another story all together. A 2100 pound 914 with 300hp, a nicely tuned suspension, and decent tires would be just about perfect on the street and entirely capable on the track, just ask the guys running a 3.6L six. If properly geared and setup, that would net 12 second quarter mile times AND great handling in a car that can be comfortable enough for the street. That's Viper, Z06, and GT2 territory on a postman's budget. And there is no reason the same 300 hp couldn't come from a well prepped 302 V8 with aluminum heads that spins to 7500 rpm just like the porsche. Just my .02 cents. |
Just because there are 1000 HP on tap, doesn't mean you use them all the time, you learn throttle control on a whole new level. If traction will only handle 500HP, only use 500
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 22 2005, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Aug 22 2005, 05:56 PM) |
| It did make me laught when Hippy got jumped on for jabbing the AX guys, but Grant gets a pass on the repeated, indefensibly inflamitory insults. |
yes, we are intolerant of anonymous people from undisclosed locations.
especially those whose initial posts are highly controversial - borderline inflammatory.
i tend to believe little from anonymous posters until they've established some credibility; maybe not even then.
<--- my name's right over there.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 22 2005, 04:59 PM
You got a mouse in your pocket?
If you dont like me because you dont know my name... to bad.
And as far as me be anonymous, welcome to the internet
I'm not here for you to like me. (note the period) i'm here because i happen to like 914's. I've built a few of them, i've driven a few of them, and have my opinions on what makes the cars better, and what doesn't.
Have a nice Day.
Oh BTW, this thread was started at the request of a long time member, not just because i wanted to cause trouble (causing trouble was just a benifit)
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 22 2005, 05:02 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 22 2005, 06:59 PM) |
| If you dont like me because you dont know my name... to bad. |
i have no opinion of you because I DON'T KNOW YOU.
AFAIK, you're a perfectly nice person IRL and only play a jerk on the internet.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 22 2005, 05:11 PM
I've got you beat, i know your name and where you live, and still dont know you.
Good call w/ the anonymous card
You have illustrated that you dont like me (refered to me as Jerk for one) so you are highly unlikely to fairly weigh any arguments i might add for or against something
I think we are both here for the same reasons. Different ideas maybe, but that's part of the fun. As long as a car is done nicely i will respect it (maybe not the rotaries, just not natural, no con-rods and all )and i think you're the same way.
There now you know me
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 22 2005, 05:13 PM
| QUOTE (Dan_F @ Aug 22 2005, 11:51 AM) |
| The 6 felt faster although I think it was because of the more peaky power. |
Humm....it musta been yellow
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 22 2005, 05:45 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 22 2005, 03:02 PM) |
| AFAIK, you're a perfectly nice person IRL and only play a jerk on the internet. |
We agree......no mouse in my pocket sonny.
We can picture you as anything we want as you seem to be unable to clarify yourself.
I prefer you as a pimply faced hi school kid with a computer....you know, socially retarded, unable to connect with real people except by the anonymity of the internet. A clever put down to you is flipping someone the bird.
I could be wrong, but as Rich said, you play a punk on the internet....or words( less offensive) to that effect.
Now excuse me while I put a block on you.....a first for me here......and to whomever asked you here (if that is true), thanks for nothing.
Posted by: mihai914 Aug 22 2005, 05:47 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 22 2005, 06:59 PM) |
| Oh BTW, this thread was started at the request of a long time member, not just because i wanted to cause trouble (causing trouble was just a benifit) |
I agree with Rich, what you're doing is like showing up for the first time in a bar and stirring
How do you think the regulars will take it? And just because you're on the Internet doesn't mean that you have to lose all your education and good sense.
Back on subject, the stock 95hp of the 2.0 four was enough to get me in trouble, so I tend to lean towards the "become a better driver and then go for power" option.
Most people here appreciate all flavors of the 914 up to the wild and crazy, but they appreciate it because it's nicely done.
You can drive a hack job even with a stock T-4 if it was a half-assed install.
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 22 2005, 05:56 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 22 2005, 07:11 PM) |
| I've got you beat, i know your name and where you live, and still dont know you. You have illustrated that you dont like me (refered to me as Jerk for one) so you are highly unlikely to fairly weigh any arguments i might add for or against something... |
i have 4852 posts; if you read even a tiny fraction of those, you'd know me as well as 99% of the people here do.
i still don't know *you*. i'm not fond of the character you play here.
i'm not likely to weigh any arguments you may make at all.
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 22 2005, 06:05 PM
| QUOTE |
| I prefer you as a pimply faced hi school kid with a computer |
Hey.
I resent that remark.
but im in college now. I'll get over it
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 22 2005, 06:08 PM
| QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 22 2005, 03:32 PM) |
| i tend to believe little from anonymous posters until they've established some credibility; maybe not even then. |
here's the location of his (Crazyhippy) IP address:
a SoCal conspiracy? personally, i think it's Skline posting under a different login ...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 22 2005, 06:22 PM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 22 2005, 04:05 PM) | ||
Hey. I resent that remark. but im in college now. I'll get over it |
Yeah, but your "normal".....well....as normal as things are around here. Hummm....you have a v8 914, and thus midly retarded...could it be ...nah, your old man rides herd on you.....prolly taught you how to act in spite of yourself.
College?...my,my. Prolly be my boss before I die & I'll have to do some gratuitous ass kissin'.....Z can give me lessons.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 22 2005, 06:26 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 22 2005, 05:08 PM) |
| personally, i think it's Skline posting under a different login ... |
Mr. Kline, that was a joke!!!
but here's some interesting info i found on the internet (on a site for boats and porn of all things) ...
he used the same email there so i know it's him ...
===================
http://www.havasubarney.com/
===================
Profile for "CrazyHippy"
Home Page: http://www.renegadehybrids.com/
Birthday: 24 July 1979
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Interests: You mean there is life outside of the internet???
Boat description: 20' Avenger, 200EFI merc and a 91 STV Pro comp
Penis Length (for women: depth to cervix): more than AZH
Member Group: Members
Member Title: party like a Porn star
Signature: I Snatch Kisses, and vice versa!
IMHO, "Renegade Hybrids" just lost a boatload (double pun intended) of credibility ..
Andy
Posted by: redshift Aug 22 2005, 06:35 PM
Andy, we don't hold it against Porsche, that Britt drive parts of one.
I used Google Earth, and found this picture for that IP:
Attached image(s)
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 22 2005, 06:44 PM
Good stuff , Andy. Lessee 1979.....26/7 years old. I got underware older than that...but it prolly smells better.
I out grew my personal punkism at about 22, but 27 is not unheard of.....quite common is this day and age, actually.
Prolly trying to impress the boss at work with his management skills/PR work. Not smart enuff to learn to cover his tracks from Andy, tho.....I couldn't either, but am wise enuff not to put myself in that position.
Pardon me while I laugh my ass off. BUUHAHAHAHAHA
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 22 2005, 06:52 PM
Lets keep this to the facts. Fact is SBC V8's suck in these cars.
I think some of you knew I was just kidding. ...right?
Here's my honest opinion, I think regardless of powerplant you chose car preparation is more signficant than engine configuration or power. There are wickedly fast 3.6 liter 6 cylinder cars that have incredible preperation that I would say almost no V8 could touch on a road course. I'm sure there are some incredible v8's too. I do think some v8 conversions cut a lot of corners, but I have seen some incredible conversions that were right on the money. I wouldnt mind driving either a well done SBC V8 or a six conversion. ...Damn but thats a boring opinion and makes me feel like I'm getting ready to hold hands with you guys and sing songs.
I have chosen the 6 conversion route as I want to compete in PCA and POC class events in the future. And if I'm honest I'd rather hear the sweet sound of a well tuned 6 rather than an awesome v8 behind my seat just because I have always wanted a 914-6. If I were to go for a non-Porsche conversion think I'd be looking at a turbo rotary engine or that wicked V8 they put in the Radical SR8.
Bottom line I'm a car nut and they are all good. 4, 6, 8, rotary, just do them right and you'll have a cool car!
Posted by: Dr. Roger Aug 22 2005, 07:06 PM
Oh yea', and I like both the P powered and the SBC powered 914's for different reasons.
$.02 worth of opinion.....
Posted by: Crazyhippy Aug 22 2005, 07:06 PM
I must have really bunched up some panties for you blokes to go through all this for me
Now care to explain the So-cal IP??
You are right, I am BJ, formerly of Renegade. I'm 26 living in So Cal (camarillo to be more accurate). I spent a few years building V8 914's. I've built some damned nice cars, and fixed some of the Shit that you all seem to assume is all v-8's.
BJH
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 22 2005, 07:11 PM
| QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Aug 22 2005, 05:05 PM) |
| Note to self: "Don't mess with Andy". Now i'm trying to think of all the things i've posted online in the past.... YIKES!!!! Soem stuff is good though.... |
Foget all this converstion stuff. I want to go to Burning Man! Oh wait. ...I'm married.
Posted by: Dr. Roger Aug 22 2005, 07:15 PM
It starts THIS weekend.....
Posted by: ewdysar Aug 22 2005, 07:24 PM
Back in '88, I bought my 2.0 914 to replace the '77 Spitfire that got totalled sitting at a red light. The car was really cool but eventually started making the tap tap tap of rod bearings getting tired. I priced regular 2.0 rebuilds, and after reading about them, wandered by Renegade on my drive home one day. Rode in the owner's 914, said thanks, and proceeded home. Floored the 2.0 getting on the freeway, and almost started to cry, I knew right then that a conversion was in my future, and according to the "brochure", it would be a cheap as a stock rebuild. Parking the car in '91, the conversion was underway. Fast forward to 2004, after moving a couple of times, buying a series of sailboats, getting married and endless other things, my '75 could go back on the road without the CA smog cert. So I dove back into the conversion, talked to the new owners of RH, and tried to do it right. WAY to many $$$ later, the car's my daily driver, and a hell of a lot of fun. I haven't made it to a track, or an AX event yet and I probably could have done a big P-6 for the same $$$, but I really like my car. I've got a stack of parts waiting to work their way into my project, but there's so many things to do in life.
It could have been a six, happened to be an eight, I'd really like to to a Raby T4 for my next one, or maybe a suby... The extra HP makes the car more to my liking, not neccesarily better, just more to my liking. In my eyes they're all still 914's, except Chalon's (just kidding Scott, I wanted a Chalon too) IMHO, almost everyone here is driving, or working on, or dreaming about a custom car, almost stock or way out there, which is what's so cool about the 914. There's so much potential, I'm hooked.
I realize that most of the immflamatory remarks in this thread have been made tongue in cheek, for those that weren't, Lighten up!
Remember "there is no spoon".
Eric
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 22 2005, 09:52 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 22 2005, 04:52 PM) |
| I wouldnt mind driving either a well done SBC V8 or a six conversion. ...Damn but thats a boring opinion and makes me feel like I'm getting ready to hold hands with you guys and sing songs. |
Actually our favorite is "we are the world..."
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 22 2005, 10:38 PM
| QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Aug 22 2005, 07:52 PM) | ||
Actually our favorite is "we are the world..." |
I was thinking "Its a Small World after all"
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 12:31 AM
don't even go there, that sticks in your head for days after DL...
Posted by: redshift Aug 23 2005, 01:42 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 23 2005, 12:38 AM) |
| I was thinking "Its a Small World after all" |
NO!!
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! 
YOU TAKE THAT BACK! TAKE IT BACK NOW! Nooooooooooooooooo!!! MAKE IT STOP! MAKE IT STOP!!!!!! noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 01:45 AM
I tell you there's subliminal brain washing in that song!
Posted by: redshift Aug 23 2005, 01:51 AM
you made me look again... and that makes me hum... humming makes me sing.. and when I sing I hear... NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! please God! Make it stop!
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 10:54 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 22 2005, 04:52 PM) |
| Lets keep this to the facts. Fact is SBC V8's suck in these cars. I think some of you knew I was just kidding. ...right? Here's my honest opinion, I think regardless of powerplant you chose car preparation is more signficant than engine configuration or power. There are wickedly fast 3.6 liter 6 cylinder cars that have incredible preperation that I would say almost no V8 could touch on a road course. I'm sure there are some incredible v8's too. I do think some v8 conversions cut a lot of corners, but I have seen some incredible conversions that were right on the money. I wouldnt mind driving either a well done SBC V8 or a six conversion. ...Damn but thats a boring opinion and makes me feel like I'm getting ready to hold hands with you guys and sing songs. I have chosen the 6 conversion route as I want to compete in PCA and POC class events in the future. And if I'm honest I'd rather hear the sweet sound of a well tuned 6 rather than an awesome v8 behind my seat just because I have always wanted a 914-6. If I were to go for a non-Porsche conversion think I'd be looking at a turbo rotary engine or that wicked V8 they put in the Radical SR8. Bottom line I'm a car nut and they are all good. 4, 6, 8, rotary, just do them right and you'll have a cool car! |
Having recently seen alot of big displacement muscle at the Monterey Historics and the story of the "back yard prototypes" you have to admire people who try something new and make it work. There are examples of attempts so let's call them prototypes often mistaken for hack jobs. For most the goal is to build a GT car, not a car to be barely accepted in the Porsche games or to demonstrate nimble performance. Why compare cars that don't live on the same type of track or may not even care to be on a track?
There are too many neglected and often hacked 914's that would benefit from a nice conversion of any type. Other than the concourse owners we are all trying to modify and improve this basic but compelling platform.
Posted by: Sammy Aug 23 2005, 12:03 PM
It's a world of laughter
A world of tears
It's a world of hopes
And a world of fears
There's so much that we share
That it's time we're aware
It's a small world after all
There is just one moon
And one golden sun
And a smile means
Friendship to ev'ryone
Though the mountains divide
And the oceans are wide
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small world after all
It's a small, small world
Don't mention it, no thanks necessary. Least I can do.
Posted by: Rotary'14 Aug 23 2005, 12:32 PM
damn,, somebody stop the song in my head,,, the little manequins freak me out like "chucky".
8 pages of arguing and my beloved rotary only gets a mention here and there! Where's soloracer at? nevermind,,
Rotary conversion guys just seem to keep quiet and keep our opinions to ourselves, it's hard to find understanding. I must remember to offer my car for rides when it ever gets finished.
I think the lesson of this thread is that 914s are fun when you have more than 180 horse power. And that certain parts of your anatomy will grow if you have a V8! j/k
914 owners with radiators vs 914 owners without, in an all out Paintball War to prove who will rule the 914 world.
Oh well I think I better take my medication,,,,,
Posted by: goose2 Aug 23 2005, 12:42 PM
....so, who the hell is Cindy and just how and why does she support terrorism? Inquiring minds need to know....it's a small world after all.
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 01:11 PM
| QUOTE (Sammy @ Aug 23 2005, 10:03 AM) |
| It's a world of laughter A world of tears It's a world of hopes And a world of fears There's so much that we share That it's time we're aware It's a small world after all There is just one moon And one golden sun And a smile means Friendship to ev'ryone Though the mountains divide And the oceans are wide It's a small world after all It's a small world after all It's a small world after all It's a small world after all It's a small, small world Don't mention it, no thanks necessary. Least I can do. |
Dam you! (picture Charlton Heston when he sees the status of liberty in "Beneath thd Planet of the Apes"
Posted by: 914GT Aug 23 2005, 01:12 PM
| QUOTE (goose2 @ Aug 23 2005, 11:42 AM) |
| ....so, who the hell is Cindy and just how and why does she support terrorism? Inquiring minds need to know....it's a small world after all. |
Cindy Sheehan, the anti-war protestor who's son was killed in Iraq and had been camping out outside the Bush ranch recently. Support terrorism? You decide. She's involved with groups such as http://www.codepink4peace.org/, who want to interfere with military recruitment on campuses. Years ago those activities would have been called sedition.
Posted by: goose2 Aug 23 2005, 01:26 PM
| QUOTE |
| Cindy Sheehan, the anti-war protestor who's son was killed in Iraq |
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 01:42 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Aug 22 2005, 02:21 PM) | ||
Just because there are 1000 HP on tap, doesn't mean you use them all the time, you learn throttle control on a whole new level. If traction will only handle 500HP, only use 500 |
Here's an example of "too" much hp:
| QUOTE |
| Possibly the least sporty, most poorly constructed small car ever sold in America was the Renault R5. Known in this country as the LeCar, the Renault looked and drove like a Yugo, only smaller, with less power and worse reliability. Renault was racing, however. During the late '70s and early '80s, the company was pioneering development of turbocharged engines in its Formula One racing cars. Those 1.5-liter turbo engines eventually reached as high as an estimated 1,200 hp in qualifying trim. Renault wanted to put its turbo expertise to work in rally competition, and the tiny R5 was the designated platform. But putting a bunch of turbo horses to the ground through the front wheels didn't seem like a good recipe for a fast rally car, so Renault engineers removed the back seat and installed the engine amidships, driving the rear wheels through a five-speed transaxle. To make this version eligible for racing, Renault then had to sell the R5 Turbo in its showrooms. Unfortunately, the manufacturer didn't officially import the little hot rod to America. |
Attached image(s)
Posted by: Mueller Aug 23 2005, 01:46 PM
I used to see one in Campbell once in a while...one of my all time favorite cars (by looks and performance, never drove one) 
Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 23 2005, 01:47 PM
...and a noted F1 driver (i want to say Jean-Pierre Jarrier) was Renault's US Competition Director and was killed testing an R5 Turbo being prepped for IMSA. that was pretty much the end of the R5's official competition career in the US, although IIRC the Archer Brothers went on to campaign them pretty successfully as independents, possibly in another series (Trans-Am?)
Posted by: goose2 Aug 23 2005, 01:52 PM
It's a world of hell holes
brackets and gears
Small blocks and sixes
Debates and jeers
It's the platform we share
What conversion you dare
It's a 914 world after all
There is just one chassis
And one rusty tub
Be it powered by Chevy
Or anemic V-Dub
Though our choices divide
Keep your minds open wide
Its a 914 world after all
It's a 914 world after all (repeat until vomiting subsides)
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 23 2005, 02:12 PM
| QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Aug 23 2005, 12:42 PM) |
| Here's an example of "too" much hp |
R5 Turbo II one of my all time favorite cars ...
that one, i would own in a heartbeat!
Andy
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 04:24 PM
| QUOTE (goose2 @ Aug 23 2005, 11:52 AM) |
| It's a world of hell holes brackets and gears Small blocks and sixes Debates and jeers It's the platform we share What conversion you dare It's a 914 world after all There is just one chassis And one rusty tub Be it powered by Chevy Or anemic V-Dub Though our choices divide Keep your minds open wide Its a 914 world after all It's a 914 world after all (repeat until vomiting subsides) |
Dam that's funny! LMAO
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 04:28 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 23 2005, 11:46 AM) |
| I used to see one in Campbell once in a while...one of my all time favorite cars (by looks and performance, never drove one) |
Mike,
found it after you posted the link for a R5 transaxle. I "may" go for it if the shipping costs are reasonable...it's rated up to 500hp/350tq...wonder what they used for the 1200hp engines. A company in AUS sells a Chevy bellhousing for it.
Posted by: andys Aug 23 2005, 04:59 PM
| QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Aug 23 2005, 02:28 PM) |
| Mike, found it after you posted the link for a R5 transaxle. I "may" go for it if the shipping costs are reasonable...it's rated up to 500hp/350tq...wonder what they used for the 1200hp engines. A company in AUS sells a Chevy bellhousing for it. |
Felix,
The Renault transaxle is widely used on European GT40 kit cars (GTD). A lot of those guys do a lot of track time with them, and, as it turns out, durability is really quite good. Many opt for the Derek Bell upgrades which allows it to withstand a genuine 550HP. Only down side, is that there are relatively few of these here in the states, and just as few that can work on them.
The model UN1-013 has very good V8 ratio's from a reasonably tall first, to a reasonably tall 5th; something that is lacking with most transaxles available here.
Andy
Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 23 2005, 05:37 PM
| QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Aug 23 2005, 03:42 PM) | ||||||
Here's an example of "too" much hp:
|
Here we finally have some intelligent thinking. I promise you there is no feeling quite like when you hook big HP in a 914. I did not mean to imply that you must have big HP or a v8 to enjoy a 914. I did not mean to brag and was not trying to. I am however proud of my achievements with my turbocharged 914 as I did all the work my self. I just think that 914's are a very unique car and love all types stock and\or modified.
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 23 2005, 06:27 PM
| QUOTE (turbo914v8 @ Aug 23 2005, 03:37 PM) |
| I am however proud of my achievements with my turbocharged 914 as I did all the work my self. I just think that 914's are a very unique car and love all types stock and\or modified. |
Paul, you should be now how about those pics? Hear from Scott B lately?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 23 2005, 06:38 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Aug 22 2005, 04:45 PM) |
| We can picture you as anything we want as you seem to be unable to clarify yourself. I prefer you as a pimply faced hi school kid with a computer....you know, socially retarded, unable to connect with real people except by the anonymity of the internet. A clever put down to you is flipping someone the bird. |
you just described Britt Dodd.....
Posted by: grantsfo Aug 23 2005, 07:16 PM
Here are two of my favorite v8 conversions!
Video of mid engine V8 mini!
http://www.simon-stubbs.co.uk/videos/V8blue_1st%20runx.wmv
His site:
http://www.simon-stubbs.co.uk/
Great tranverse v8 Mini conversion
http://www.geocities.com/jharkola/Viku2.html
Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 23 2005, 07:27 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=36898&hl=
One mean v8
Something for all the non-believers.
Posted by: goose2 Aug 23 2005, 09:36 PM
how 'bout a 478 Hemi in a Bugeye Sprite?
http://www.ntahc.org/modifiedhealeys/Photos/126Marian/Marian.htm
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 23 2005, 09:46 PM
| QUOTE (goose2 @ Aug 23 2005, 07:36 PM) |
| how 'bout a 478 Hemi in a Bugeye Sprite? |
Another answer to a question nobody asked.......but....
I bet it will swap ends quicker than a 1000hp 914
Posted by: Brett W Aug 23 2005, 09:55 PM
There is an R5 that show up sometimes at the Walter Mitty historic races at Road Atlanta. He is out classed and not a very good driver, but the car is cool as hell.
Posted by: startsw/p Aug 23 2005, 10:13 PM
I'm in the middle of building a 914/6 conversion and am falling in love with a 74 2.0 liter. There's something about the original cars. I can't explain it. It feels like I'm home. I don't care if it's slow. I need a four cylinder car, dead mint original. But I always said if it had more brakes and more grip and less flex and 100 more horses, well you get the picture.... I need the sixer too. Looks like I'll be selling the 911 and the 931. Damn. 
Posted by: goose2 Aug 23 2005, 10:14 PM
| QUOTE |
| Another answer to a question nobody asked.......but.... |
yes, I digress to be sure...but with all this talk of mega-horsepower in light cars, I couldn't resist. Been waiting to post that link for awhile
I've got a hotrod builder buddy who has built a beautiful Hemi powered Volvo 444. I'll post pics someday. Personally I think these kind of cars are pretty useless but great fun. Kinda like mechanical masturbation.
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