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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Clutch Tube reweld???
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 18 2005, 02:59 PM
I find that I have to keep tightening my clutch every couple of weeks. In an AA catalogue, one of their little window box tips says that if this happens then you need to reweld your clutch tube.
Is this true?
Where is the clutch tube located?
tx
Posted by: balljoint Aug 18 2005, 03:59 PM
I have seen a number of cars which have had a small tab cut in the centre tunnel, forward of the shifter, in order to re-weld a (?) which holds the clutch tube in place. The shop in question would cut a 1 inch by 1 inch 3 sided cut in a pre-measured spot on the tunnel, then they would bend the tab of metal back out of the way, fiox the broken weld point and fold it back down.
I had noticed the scar on the tunnels of several of their cars and asked about it. I thought that might be what you are talking about.
Not to say that is your problem.
Posted by: ThinAir914 Aug 18 2005, 04:16 PM
Here's the procedure: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=28313&hl=clutch+tube
The clutch tube runs through the center tunnel and is welded in 3 places. Usually the front weld is the first one to break loose. Mine was broken in all 3 places so this guide will show you everything you might need.
It's a challenge, but you might be able to see the front weld with a mirror and flashlight. Put the mirror into the center tunnel next to the accelerator pedal. Otherwise, you'll have to release the tension on the cable so you can reach into the center tunnel and see if your tube can be moved around.
There is also a possibility that your cable is simply frayed and is in need of replacement.
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 18 2005, 04:40 PM
Take your shifter out, look down, and depress the clutch.....
If it moves... You know why...
Cheap easy fix is to drill holes and use U clamps or J clamps.
Proper fix is to weld it.
Try and find the proper location....
thin air basically has it covered to do it properly.
GL!!
(I did mine.... twas evil....)
Andrew
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 18 2005, 04:53 PM
with my luck i would drill right through the center of the tube with brad's fix, if the bracket is torn away how do you get the weld in the correct area? if one fasioned a bracket, do you think the tube could be secured if it was welded at the very front of the opening for the shifter? or would it still allow the front of the tube to flex too much. btw, great write up!
k
Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2005, 04:54 PM
Ernies repair is pretty extream, I guess it depends on how sound your car is.........easy method is to just drill a few 1/4" to 3/8" access holes on side of tunnel and spot weld the tube.....remove shifter, feel for tube, it's pretty simple and should be obvious after that........
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 18 2005, 04:59 PM
Is there a post here from Brad and his repair?
(Just to compare)
I think I know what I'm doin this weekend!!!!! 
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 18 2005, 05:04 PM
i'm pulling my shifter after i get back from the vet's office. i don't have near the issues ernie did. somewhat irregular fiddling with the clutch adj.
k
Posted by: Hammy Aug 18 2005, 05:09 PM
I noticed in on the top of the tunnel my car there's a section that was cut and bent back, a few inches in front of the shifter. I was wondering what it was for. was this an earlier PO's clutch tube repair?
Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2005, 05:13 PM
| QUOTE (Hammy @ Aug 18 2005, 04:09 PM) |
| I noticed in on the top of the tunnel my car there's a section that was cut and bent back, a few inches in front of the shifter. I was wondering what it was for. was this an earlier PO's clutch tube repair? |
does not sound like a repair job, more likely a hack job fo getting to the cables.......normally the repair is done on the drivers side of the tunnel
Posted by: Hammy Aug 18 2005, 05:15 PM
Damn.
Damn those half-ass PO's 
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 18 2005, 05:19 PM
here's what the DAPO left me with ... isn't that pretty?
Andy
Attached image(s)
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 18 2005, 05:19 PM
closeup of the hacked tunnel ...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 18 2005, 05:21 PM
and yes, do a search here, brad had a detailed thread with pictures on how to do the drill and spotweld fix.
also, check the back on the tube where it goes through the back firewall, mine came lose there was well ...
Andy
Posted by: Jeffs9146 Aug 18 2005, 05:27 PM
When I was 18 I tried to fix my clutch tube and hit the gas line 
I was under the car and I didn't see the flames untill it was too late!!
I learned to do my research well before I attempting repairs in the future!!
Take it slow and think it through, you will be fine! GL
Jeff
Posted by: Hammy Aug 18 2005, 05:28 PM
Yesss... that's quite close to what mine looks like Andy, yet not as bad. 
hehe
but do you think it needs desperate attention in getting fixed back to normal... seems more like an annoyance to me than anything critical.. ?
Posted by: Andyrew Aug 18 2005, 05:30 PM
Heck I made holes for it myself!!!
I dont care... Its easy access, and I can check lots of things.
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 18 2005, 05:31 PM
looking at ernie's pictures again, the cut for the front bracket does start aout 2" forward of the shifter opening. i guess the front bracket is key to keeping the whole thing stable. i remember when b posted pictures long ago with just three cuts and the piece bent up. welding a couple of tabs on the piece to be removed and just pop riveted down would do the trick. heck, just rivet the tabs on. even easier next time around.
k
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 18 2005, 05:34 PM
do a search 
...provide the link 
. re:search. i think there are a number of people who have a difficult time getting good results (hand raised). i don't know why.
k
Posted by: ThinAir914 Aug 18 2005, 05:47 PM
I originally posted mine because I figured my repair was about the worst that anyone could expect on this component and I'd never seen a thread that gave me all the steps so that I could do it without asking lots of questions first. My goal was to show the detail well enough to leave no mystery about how things go together.
Brad's approach for the front weld is certainly less invasive and therefore "cleaner", but in my case it did not work because of the way the bracket was broken and our inability to get the brazing cleaned up sufficiently to allow a clean weld. We had it welded once and it broke when we were using a hammer & screwdriver to re-round the rear end of the tube. This was was more certain of success for my particular situation.
Edit - Oops! I just went back and read my old thread. The last picture (before Mike welding) shows that we actually used Brad's method on the front because our first efforts failed. Apparently my memory failed on this one!
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 18 2005, 06:02 PM
a little 
re:search feature. i tried and used clutch AND tube AND repair, poster name: brad roberts, 30 days and older. the only one that came up with b as the poster was when jenny bought her car and clutch was in red in the text. the i combined all the words and got the "if you are unable to use..."
i can see how brads method would work if the bracket just popped off. when it's torn away, i can't see how you could drill holes, get to the jagged ends, and make it work.
k
Posted by: ThinAir914 Aug 18 2005, 06:12 PM
Here's Brad's thread. I searched for "Clutch Tube" and any date. It was on page 4 of the results. It's been moved to the Classic Threads section - I think mine should be there too!
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=20684&hl=
Posted by: jkeyzer Aug 18 2005, 06:28 PM
I think the clutch tube should be nominated for #1 design flaw of the 914, since I think pretty much every 914 has this problem at one time or another. #2 must be those plastic fuel lines...
Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 18 2005, 07:18 PM
ok. in b's thread the 2 outer holes are to locate the bracket? when he says "clamp the tube" i take he means at the hole for the shifter to keep the cable tube tight to the tunnel? i'm lost with the 3 hole concept.
k
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Aug 18 2005, 07:32 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 18 2005, 02:54 PM) |
| Ernies repair is pretty extream, I guess it depends on how sound your car is.........easy method is to just drill a few 1/4" to 3/8" access holes on side of tunnel and spot weld the tube.....remove shifter, feel for tube, it's pretty simple and should be obvious after that........ |
TAKE THE CABLE OUT BEFORE YOU DO THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cut a flap and weld it properly. You just line up the broken bracket and weld away ..... The Cap'n
Posted by: scottb Aug 18 2005, 07:34 PM
so i pull the carpet so i can make the cuts for the new rennshift. figure "what the heck, i'll give a push on the clutch and see what happens. SHIT!!!!
it moved!
damn, damn, damn.
no point in installing the new rennshift until i get the clutch tube fixed. hmmmmmm.... maybe now is the time to buy that welder huh?
hey kerry, how about a clutch tube repair tech session at the ecc? i got a car in need!
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 18 2005, 08:02 PM
| QUOTE (Hammy @ Aug 18 2005, 04:28 PM) |
| but do you think it needs desperate attention in getting fixed back to normal... seems more like an annoyance to me than anything critical.. ? |
probably *not* critical, but i welded it shut anyways ...
here are the (blurry) *after* pics ...
all cleaned up and ready to weld:
and all welded up:
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 18 2005, 08:12 PM
Has anyone tried a small "U" bolt? It would be stronger than a spot weld, cleaner and the only down side I could see would be if you tightened it too much you could crush the tube. If you were able to drill out the old bracket over the tube and were able to put the "U" bolt through that, I would think it would be the strongest option.
The only down side I can see would be the nuts sticking out the side under the carpet. 
Posted by: flesburg Aug 18 2005, 08:17 PM
1. The clutch cable tube needs to be held so that it does not move fore and aft. That can be most easily accomplished by rebrazing or welding it to the firewall right in front of the engine. The cable needs to be removed, but if you are a good welder and use some shielding, or if your "best friend" is a good welder it can be done with the engine in the car. Cover the gas lines and everything around it with some welding shield or some pieces of leather. Have an air hose handy to blow out any fire you start. The tube was originally brazed, and the brass will cause welding to be a little difficult. Making a bracket from a washer, as suggested above, is a good idea.
2. You also need to keep the tube from moving side to side. That can be accomplished by opening up a small access hole and clamping the tube to the tunnel with a metal cable clamp and a bolt. Make a new cover plate to cover the new "access hole" and screw it on. That way you have an access hole to use in the future, if you ever need it. The tube does not have to be welded in three or four different places. The closer you can get the clamp the the forward end of the tube the better, about a foot forward from the shift mount is where the clutch cable tube ends.
As long as you do a good job on #1 and #2, you should have a permanent fix.
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 18 2005, 08:21 PM
Looking at Brad's pictures it appears there is only one spot weld on the bottom side of the bracket that holds the front end of the tube. Is this correct?
Posted by: Mueller Aug 18 2005, 08:28 PM
hopefully Bowlsby will see this and post pictures....I did the welding of his clutch tube about a week before this years WCC, I think there were 3 or 4 holes in the sizes mentioned above that I used to attach the tube to the tunnel sheetmetal....no laughing at my welds, we had to do the job outside and the welder had a tough time with the long extension cords 
Posted by: itsa914 Aug 18 2005, 09:21 PM
| QUOTE (Andyrew @ Aug 18 2005, 02:40 PM) |
| Take your shifter out, look down, and depress the clutch..... If it moves... You know why... Cheap easy fix is to drill holes and use U clamps or J clamps. Proper fix is to weld it. Try and find the proper location.... thin air basically has it covered to do it properly. GL!! (I did mine.... twas evil....) Andrew |
Just had this repair done on my car about month ago. No need to remove the shifter just pull the shifter boot cover off you should be able to see the tube, push in the clutch if the tube moves it has at least one broken weld, mine had the two in the tunnel and a crack at the firewall
I didn't do the repair, Brad Mayuer did (actual Michael did). I believe they did it with the engine still in the car. Good luck.
Posted by: scottb Aug 19 2005, 05:05 AM
i have been looking for an excuse to buy a welder and this repair could be it.
now here's the rub. i don't know how to weld.
if i were to practice on some scrap (got that) and get tacking down, would this be a good newbie first project?
i am thinking that i will do the access panel route so i have a clear shot to do the tacks and then use repair of the panel to try a butt weld and then lay a bead.
wadda ya think? it sounds good on paper....
Posted by: swl Aug 19 2005, 06:23 AM
welding is beyond the limits of what I want to learn - bad memories of shop class. So any repair like this would be a trip to the body shop and who knows what sort of competency the guy who gets the job really has (have to find someone who has had good rustoration done in the area). Has anyone tried the CNC hydraulic approach? Looks like it could be a permanent fix to the clutch tube problem and less risk of becoming a DAPO.
http://cncbrakes.com/cncbrakes.com-asp//hck.asp?grp=hck&subgrp=all&series=320
Posted by: itsa914 Aug 19 2005, 07:34 AM
welding is not my thing either, but I would like to learn
I don't want to quote shop prices for Brad Mayeur, but for just a little over $200 I had the clutch tube fixed and few minor things checked or replaced. I think it was money well spent. YMMV
I would think a qualified shop could do this and it shouldn't cost and arm and a leg. I can't believe how well my car shifts, the broken tube was making it hard to shift in reverse, 4th & 5th.
If you have the time to do it on your own, I say go for it just watch the fuel lines while
Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 19 2005, 08:49 AM
I actually put a u-bolt clamp on Betty's car about 16 years ago when this happened. It's still there. No problems with it since. But it's not the proper way to fix it.
On my car, I used the 911 tranny with the pull type clutch. Now with the clutch pressed against the floor, I can move the cable sleeve forward and backwards. There is no load on the clutch tube.
One other alternative is to buy one of Rich Johnson's hydraulic clutch conversion kits.
Posted by: jonwatts Aug 19 2005, 09:04 AM
Regardless of the method (I won't poo poo anyone's creative ideas if they don't have access to a welder) you definitely don't want to wait until it gets to this point or the cursing quotient goes up by a factor of 10.
Posted by: scottb Aug 19 2005, 08:33 PM
with the clarity brought on by careful observation i believe i have a solution that does not involve welding, can be achieved with hand tools and a drill, and should take care of a broken clutch tube for the foreseeable (sp?) future.
however, i have other commitments this evening and shall let all you who attend this thread know the results in the morrow..... 
(it means i am tired after mucking about in the tunnel!)
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 19 2005, 09:29 PM
I'm going to fix mine tomorrow. I will post pix and describe.
I intend to first try the "drill and spot weld" and if I'm not happy with the result I might throw in a small "U" bolt for comfort.
Posted by: ThinAir914 Aug 20 2005, 12:57 AM
| QUOTE (jonwatts @ Aug 19 2005, 08:04 AM) |
| ...you definitely don't want to wait until it gets to this point or the cursing quotient goes up by a factor of 10. |
Yup. For the record, it was a PO that let it go this far. That shiney dot on the left is what's left of the pop rivet that held an add-on pipe for the clutch tube to go over. When I bought the car I did not see the extra piece and of course it hid the damage that you see in that photo. No cursing was involved, but I was NOT a happy camper when I saw what was underneath!
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 20 2005, 08:34 AM
Well it's torn down and here is what I'm up against. I was hoping for better but I see now that a little bit of welding is in my near furture.
Looks like I won't be driving to Mark's today.
As you can see in the mirror the tube clamp is broken on the bottom.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 20 2005, 08:38 AM
In this pic you can see the fire wall is cracked ....BAD
Attached image(s)
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 20 2005, 08:39 AM
And now I can sandblast the area and build a new support section.
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Posted by: SirAndy Aug 20 2005, 12:25 PM
| QUOTE (tracks914 @ Aug 20 2005, 07:39 AM) |
| And now I can sandblast the area and build a new support section. |
ayupp, a familiar sight ...
good luck with the
Andy
Posted by: jonwatts Aug 20 2005, 12:40 PM
You know, while you're in there you should remove all that rust-hiding tar from the center tunnel and floorboards 
Posted by: 9146986 Aug 20 2005, 12:58 PM
| QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Aug 19 2005, 06:49 AM) |
| One other alternative is to buy one of Rich Johnson's hydraulic clutch conversion kits. |
Yea, I remember funding the R&D for that one.
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 21 2005, 05:03 PM
| QUOTE (jonwatts @ Aug 20 2005, 10:40 AM) |
| You know, while you're in there you should remove all that rust-hiding tar from the center tunnel and floorboards ;) |
That rust hiding tar is all new sound dampening material. When I did the frame up resto 3 years ago I tore out all the original stuff only to find a prestine floor. My tub was in great shape. That's why I was so surprised to see the firewall cracked. It wasn't cracked before, but I have put a few miles on it since then. The fire wall problem isn't a rust issue but a fatigue issue anyway. From the sounds of it, it was bound to happen.
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 21 2005, 07:10 PM
The fixes are in.
3/32 Stainless Steel Plate, cut into template.
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Posted by: tracks914 Aug 21 2005, 07:11 PM
Placed over tubes, a tighter fit than it shows in the pictures.
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Posted by: tracks914 Aug 21 2005, 07:15 PM
Areas to be welded were sand blasted and welded with 308 SS rod.
Throttle cable was not welded to new support plate for fear of "too" much penetration thus creating a possible bad spot on the tube. (I hate it when your throttle sticks wide open)
It's actually a little prettier than the pictures show. 
Clutch tube is nice and tight. 
Attached image(s)
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 21 2005, 07:20 PM
Front tube was only 1/2 broken. The bottom 1/2 and it broke between the spot weld and the tube, meaning, there is nothing left to spot weld using Brad's method.
I went the less evasive route and used the "u" bolt from a 1/2" cable clamp, then sliced the the nuts in half, pretty much even with sound deadening material so that it is not noticable when the carpet is installed.
Works for me and I think it will be stronger than some of the welds I have seen pictures of.
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Posted by: Jeffs9146 Aug 21 2005, 09:18 PM
You welded it with the gas line in???? You got some big ba........s! That plate was how I cooked the car I had just out of high school!!
Congratulations!
Jeff
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Aug 21 2005, 10:19 PM
Here are the welds Mike Mueller did on my front tube repair. Brings a tear to my eye...Awesome job Mike and I really appreciate it!
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Posted by: tracks914 Aug 22 2005, 05:19 PM
| QUOTE (Jeffs9146 @ Aug 21 2005, 07:18 PM) |
| You welded it with the gas line in???? You got some big ba........s! That plate was how I cooked the car I had just out of high school!! Congratulations! Jeff |
Not balls.....calculated risk.
What you didn't see was the sheet metal shroud I had made and duct taped to the underside of the car, wrapped around underneath to shield the gas lines as I welded. No big deal then. The plate I used was heavy enough guage that it acted like a heat sink so the lines never got hot.
BTW, I had a garden hose and a fire extinguisher parked nearby too.
Posted by: SirAndy Aug 22 2005, 05:35 PM
| QUOTE (Jeffs9146 @ Aug 21 2005, 08:18 PM) |
| You welded it with the gas line in???? |
yepp, did that in the same exact spot as well. just wrapped a wet towel around the gas-lines. that did the trick ...
Andy
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 22 2005, 05:44 PM
I just changed the gas lines last year and it was a bitch of a job. I didn't want to do that again.
Posted by: jkeyzer Aug 22 2005, 06:06 PM
| QUOTE (tracks914 @ Aug 22 2005, 03:44 PM) |
| I just changed the gas lines last year and it was a bitch of a job. I didn't want to do that again. |
Should have gone stainless then!
Posted by: tracks914 Aug 23 2005, 05:16 PM
| QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Aug 22 2005, 04:06 PM) |
| Should have gone stainless then! |
Firewall wasn't all cracked then
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