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Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 03:07 PM

This’s the advertisement for the 914/6 I bought in 2020:

QUOTE(mountainroads @ May 31 2020, 03:56 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 03:22 PM

Before deciding to purchase, I hired Jeff Gamroth to perform a PPI for $1000. Here’s his report:

“Exterior:
Initial walk around shows all body gaps excellent, with excellent paint.
No signs of major rust issues, found 1 10mm diameter bubble under paint below passenger side sail at leading edge of quarter panel.
Trunks both excellent.
Fuel tank and related plumbing excellent.
Undercoat heavily applied.
Top in excellent condition, latches very good.
Leading edge Targa top seal needs re-gluing to windshield frame.
Bumper chrome very good and aluminum trim very good.
Wheels are in excellent condition, lug nuts in fair condition.
Tires are dated 2011 and have flat spots from sitting.
All lights work, horns work, wipers work.
Rear fender flares very nicely done.
Interior:
In overall excellent condition, with some minor blemishes here and there. Dash is excellent, seats and carpet very good.
Has period Personal/Fittipaldi steering wheel.
Aftermarket speakers are loose.
All gauges work, gauges have varied patina.
Running Gear:
Engine base is 73’ 911T, 2.4L 7R crankcase.
Engine started good cold, with little smoke.
Engine has Carrera tensioners and Petronix ignition trigger.
Muffler is like new, heater boxes are in good condition, chrome tail pipe is missing. Slight seepage from pulley end of crankcase.
Leak down test: 4, 6, 5, 6, 6, 6%.
Oil tank and hoses are excellent.
Transmission type - 914/01 #7501494, no leaks detected.
Transmission shifts great, clutch cable needs adjustment.
Feels like stock gear ratios, no LSD.
Drive Test:
Engine performance - very good.
Driveability very good.
Rev limiter set at 6500 - should be raised to 7300.
Brake performance is poor due to crummy brake pads.
Car tracks straight, steering wheel very slightly off center (minor).
Has Bilstein front struts and Koni rear shocks.
Has H&H adjustable front sway bar with Tarett adjustable drop links.
911S Alloy front calipers.
E-brake works.
Has new battery.
CD unit mounted in left side of engine bay (should be mounted on bracket in front of battery).
Overall Impression:
This car was obviously restored and modified with quality and taste in mind. I would recommend purchasing.”

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 03:34 PM

Based on Jeff’s report, I proceeded to purchase the car. After he picked the car up from the seller, and brought it to his shop, we discussed what work he would perform based on the inspection and my specific desires. This was documented in a couple of emails I wrote:

7/1/20:
“Hi Jeff - This is to document work items for the 914-6 ...

1) Add engine oil cooling under the rear trunk.
2) Clutch adjustment.
3) R&R brake pads.
4) Four wheel alignment, including re-centering the steering wheel
5) Make sure everything locks and unlocks ... both doors and trunks. (Paul mentioned he doesn't think the rear trunk lock works.)
6) Add a hidden kill switch.
7) Re-glue roof weather stripping along front edge.
8) Mount and balance new tires.
9) Repair heater. Paul reported it's stuck in the 'on' position, with aluminum foil blocking the ductwork.
10) Please retain the current air cleaner setup.

Feel free to reach out if anything comes up.”

And on 7/2/20:
“Good morning Jeff - A minor correction to the ‘hit list’ for ‘1482 ...

Paul found the front trunk lock to be troublesome; not the rear.

... Bob”

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 03:45 PM

Here’s the resulting invoice I paid for Jeff’s work on the car between 7/1/20 and 10/19/20:[attachmentid=899955]


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Posted by: Front yard mechanic Jan 19 2024, 04:06 PM

This car should be awesome…just the fact

Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Jan 19 2024, 04:09 PM

we sure sold the previous owner a bunch of parts

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 04:37 PM

Since taking delivery, I’ve driven the car 376 miles. It’s worth noting the PO had the car worked on by at least 2 shops specializing in Porsches and a restoration shop in the Seattle area.

Here’s a list of things I have fixed (or are still on my “to do” list) on the car since receiving it. I’ll add to it in the next day or so. I will also post photo or video documentation. These are ALL in “as received” condition. I recognize some of this, like the broken gas tank screen, tank debris / sediment and carb inlet screen are not reasonable to expect to be found in a PPI or servicing. But the car would not pass a basic safety inspection as received.

Headlights & high beams malfunctioning; metallic chunk of debris (solder?) lodged in column switch.
RF turn signal inoperative; bucket connector receptacle damaged / broken.
License plate lite inoperative; wiring connected wrong causing short.
Parking brake adjustment improper.
LR brake venting clearance off.
Shifting; worn rear firewall bushing.
Fuel vapors entering cabin & noticeable to both of wife’s 2 adult daughters in walking through the garage; rubber of SS braid hose quickly found to be leaking near shifter (from use of gas with ethanol?) w/$135 Rigid combustible gas “sniffer”.
Carbs: sediment / debris in floats, inlet filter torn causing unacceptable drivability.
Throttle linkage set to achieve WOT; but set incorrectly for idle to be on carb stops, or to avoid excessive side loading of throttle shafts at WOT.
Gas tank: sediment (paint flakes?) & rust inside, outlet sock filter broken. SS braid hose with 2 worm drive hose clamps on tank inlet pipe.
……

There have been other “disappointments” along the way, but since I don’t have documentation, shall be excluded from this thread.

This’s my most recent discovery earlier today:[attachmentid=899960][attachmentid=899960]



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Posted by: 930cabman Jan 19 2024, 04:42 PM

All sounds and looks great, until the last photo.

Looks like possible heavy rusting in the floor.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 05:31 PM

Headlight /high beam malfunction. Left headlight dim vs right. Switching to high beams and left almost goes out while right got bright:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CieKfXcsMFZzxzPA

Photos showing RF turn signal continuously on flash mode, and of back side of broken RF turn signal connector showing missing tab for connection of 3rd wire:


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Posted by: technicalninja Jan 19 2024, 05:42 PM

That would make me check grounds first...

Look at bulbs too!

I've had broken filaments that crossed internally drive me bat shit crazy one time.

Might try discoing one side then the other to isolate.

I don't know enough about head light power supply on these yet...


Someone else, please chime in!

Posted by: Craigers17 Jan 19 2024, 05:43 PM

Regardless of a person's reputation, as a general rule, I would never let a person whom I am anticipating allowing to work on my car, do the PPI as well. There is already a baked in conflict of interest there. Not speaking to any parties involved in this particular situation, as I am not familiar. Hopefully the work that was performed was done to high level, so at least you have that.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 06:10 PM

Probably should have posted this first: As received shift cover hanging loose & 2x4 block stuck to 901 transmission:


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Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 06:13 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Jan 19 2024, 04:42 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 06:18 PM

Worn firewall shift bushing:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jwwjCStqgKKq9Jqt6

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 06:53 PM

Haven’t figured out how to post videos. So here’s a series of stills taken one click of the parking brake lever at a time as rec’d. Left side moves 3 clicks before right side moves:


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Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 07:01 PM

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Jan 19 2024, 04:43 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 07:34 PM

Venting clearance should be set to spec before installing & adjusting brake bias valve. LR outer as rec’d:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fPsqmy5DGVejjTyv9

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 08:03 PM

SS braid hose attachment to gas tank inlet pipe, sediment flushed from gas tank:


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Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 08:13 PM

Ridgid combustible gas “sniffer” detecting fuel leak near shifter, and poor throttle geometry creating excessive throttle shaft side loading at WOT:

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 08:13 PM

Ridgid combustible gas “sniffer” detecting fuel leak near shifter, and poor throttle geometry creating excessive throttle shaft side loading at WOT:


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Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 08:19 PM

Broken fuel tank screen sock:


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Posted by: KELTY360 Jan 19 2024, 08:31 PM

Regardless of the thread title, I suspect there’s an underlying opinion here. Do you think you were deceived? If so, by whom?

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 08:33 PM

Carb debris (the first possibly a piece of Porsche fabric reinforced fuel line), sediment and torn carb knitted nylon mesh inlet filter.


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Posted by: NARP74 Jan 19 2024, 08:43 PM

Rufus is busy today

Posted by: NARP74 Jan 19 2024, 08:45 PM

At some point this will get to opinion

Posted by: burton73 Jan 19 2024, 08:49 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840

Body/Interior
Started no-expense spared restoration in 2014. Paint and body work done by Kirsten Rillos at Rillos Restoration, Kent Wa. Interior by Steve Shepp, Classic Interiors, Ballard Wa.

- Full repaint in original Tangerine (23)
- Only minor surface rust repair needed in a few spots (above left rear taillight, below windshield frame, etc.).
- No structural rust or other body damage.

----------With what we see now, this statement is not even close. Your car will need a new floor pan put in. Hopefully it is only that. This is a real investment and if this was my factory 6 I would want it perfect. That is just the way I am. It may be curse but a spare no expense restoration is just that. An open checkbook------ These pictures kind of make me sick to my stomach. Try to find some light in this, at least you would make sure your clutch tube is right on.

Never give up on finding the original Engen case, you never know. It took me 17 years to find mine and I was lucky that one of our 914 brothers saw it was possibly for sale.

Best Bob B

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 08:50 PM

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Jan 19 2024, 07:31 PM)

Posted by: rgalla9146 Jan 19 2024, 09:29 PM

The braided stainless fuel line and two clamps are incorrect.
The geometry of the throttle linkage starts at the toe board and ends at the two
drop links at the carbs. Necessary parts include a good gas pedal, a smooth
cable, good bushings and all correct 914 6 linkage parts.
You have the correct fuel delivery tube between the carbs but it appears to have
been modified. It should also be attached to the bulkhead by three
nylon snaps.
Your transaxle is a rear shifter converted to a side shifter.
Be sure to get the correct conversion bushing for the firewall.

Posted by: KELTY360 Jan 19 2024, 09:37 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 19 2024, 06:50 PM)

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Jan 19 2024, 07:31 PM)

Regardless of the thread title, I suspect there’s an underlying opinion here. Do you think you were deceived? If so, by whom?

Deceived? Maybe. Mislead? More likely. Struck by incompetence, carelessness, negligence of otherwise respected people or businesses? Even more likely. There’s a group of people or businesses who had a hand in this.

I have previous experience with a large financial loss that more than one party had a hand in. From that I learned it’s useless to attempt pinning blame or seeking restitution. That’s not my goal. I simply want others here to draw their own conclusions from my experience. And maybe that’ll inform those who may consider doing business with those I cite in the future.

Others who’ve worked on the car for the PO include Akers and Chris’s German Auto in Seattle.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 19 2024, 10:11 PM

“If you had travelled to the west coast to view the car in person, would your decision have been different?“

Information not discovered and reported in the PPI weakened my negotiating position. If I’d known about the rust, I’d have run like Hell. Regarding the others, I might have paid less. As mentioned previously, my purpose here isn’t to pin blame or seek restitution. It’s to inform others in the community of pitfalls to watch out for.

I can’t, but at age 73, if I could get anything back, it’d be the time spent up to now and still being unsure when or if I’ll enjoy driving the car.

Posted by: mb911 Jan 20 2024, 06:17 AM

So if I read this right there is about 70k invested in this car? It is a real six so that falls right in line. I figure my conversion has to be worth 40-50 range and it’s not a real six. I think from a value standpoint you’re fine. The car over all is very nice. I do think the PPI should have picked up 11k worth of service and parts needed to set the car to par. This does also reinforce trying to do as much work yourself as you can. I struggle working on other people’s cars because I am spending their money with my suggested repairs.

Anyway I hope your able to enjoy the car

Posted by: 930cabman Jan 20 2024, 06:42 AM

Much of life is in the past, at least for many of us old guys here. We can learn from our experiences or not, either way nothing behind us can be changed.

Your car is a born 914/6 and that in itself is

Get the items in need of repairs in order and enjoy her in good health

Overall she looks great and probably runs the same

Posted by: mb911 Jan 20 2024, 07:09 AM

QUOTE(930cabman @ Jan 20 2024, 04:42 AM)

Much of life is in the past, at least for many of us old guys here. We can learn from our experiences or not, either way nothing behind us can be changed.

Your car is a born 914/6 and that in itself is

Get the items in need of repairs in order and enjoy her in good health

Overall she looks great and probably runs the same

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 20 2024, 08:19 AM

I feel your disappointment. Relying on others to assess a car is a gamble.

The best path forward is to decide how you want the car when it is done.

For my 6, I decided to do a full rotisserie restoration. I (ultimately) put my 6 in the talented hands of Kent Simmons, (Auto Art Customs, Torrance, CA) Jim Geer and crew. The end result was a 6 awarded a Blue Ribbon at Werks Reunion in 2022. . You can see my "build" threads in my signature.

We are now getting ready to drop the 9K mile 3.2, (for sale in the Classified) and with the help of some great, talented, knowledgable friends, put my '95 stock 18K mile 993 3.6 motor in. I will document the entire process and post for anyone interested to follow.

I am into my car a good chunk of money, but I love it. I have had 3 offers to buy it, all over $100K. I can't imagine ever selling my 6 while I am still able to drive. It is just a joy to drive and worth every dollar.

At the end of the journey, it was all worth it and I learned a lot. I post everything about my 6 in the hope others learn from my experience. Life is too short to look in the rear-view (mostly ).

Posted by: fasthonda Jan 20 2024, 09:06 AM

If only the floor pan has rust and the rest is solid and the powertrain is strong, I'd say you still got a good deal considering its a real six. People are asking $80k plus them now.

If the floor pan rust is severe, the PPI surely should have caught that.

If the car makes you sick, sell it. If not just go make it right. After loosing tons of money in my 401k with swings in the market, having to spend a or loose a little on a car seems insignificant to me anymore.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

Posted by: lalee914 Jan 20 2024, 09:18 AM

I saw this car at Rennsport IV in 2011. Have a couple photos to post.


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Posted by: lalee914 Jan 20 2024, 09:19 AM

It was for sale at that time.


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Posted by: lalee914 Jan 20 2024, 09:21 AM

This photo is from July 2013. Don't know where it was taken.


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Posted by: infraredcalvin Jan 20 2024, 09:32 AM

Sidebar: That looks like @rick918-S 6 in the background, before it became up close and personal with the power pole…

Posted by: Krieger Jan 20 2024, 09:53 AM

I see that you paid a significant sum for a PPI. The work that was required to repair the car was much more extensive than the PPI would would suggest.

Posted by: technicalninja Jan 20 2024, 11:03 AM

QUOTE(mb911 @ Jan 20 2024, 06:17 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 20 2024, 11:12 AM

For comparison to PPI and seller’s 914world advertisement description & photos. (Maybe not that unusual or awful for a 50yo 914, but unknown to me before making purchase decision & negotiating a deal. A similar photo was provided by PO, between finalizing the purchase and taking delivery.) Again, please draw your own conclusions.


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Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 12:01 PM

Why do I have a feeling that this isn’t even the finale?

Are you headed toward VIN swap or is this clipped? I’m not an expert on Model year vs VIN range, could this be a 72’ 914/6 chassis?

Posted by: mb911 Jan 20 2024, 12:10 PM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jan 20 2024, 10:01 AM)

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 20 2024, 12:20 PM

It is very common for these 50+ year old 914's to have had mishaps along the way necessitating panel replacements. Nose and rear panels were pretty common. I have attached 2 photos showing my '71 914-6 nose panel corners for reference for your consideration.

I know my car had a later factory nose replacement panel installed when I bought it. The give away was the round holes in the nose panel were not opened up. I sourced an NOS early panel (mid-year) and we modified that to perfectly match the original '71 (early) panel. I guess what I am saying is not to get to wound up about differences; they can all be addressed to perfectly match what came stock in a '70, or whatever year 914 you have, from the factory. So long as the panel is correctly installed- like factory, I see no harm.

The only issue I would have is if someone tried to pass a car off as having never had work, when it has. That is why I documented the entire process of my build for all to see.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 12:32 PM

QUOTE(mb911 @ Jan 20 2024, 02:10 PM)

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jan 20 2024, 10:01 AM)

Why do I have a feeling that this isn’t even the finale?

Are you headed toward VIN swap or is this clipped? I’m not an expert on Model year vs VIN range, could this be a 72’ 914/6?

I am thinking something similar wouldn’t that be a 75/76 front panel?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 12:34 PM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Jan 20 2024, 02:20 PM)

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 20 2024, 12:43 PM

Wow! $1K for a PPI that did not identify these issues is borderline incompetent.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 12:48 PM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Jan 20 2024, 02:43 PM)

Wow! $1K for a PPI that did not identify these issues is borderline incompetent.

Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 20 2024, 01:01 PM

Buying from pictures is like operating a worm drive electric saw while wearing a blindfold.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 20 2024, 01:14 PM

FWIW, I have PO’s signature on this …

He also passed along a copy of Bruce Johnson’s The 914 & 914/6 Porsche (which I already had a copy of).


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Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 20 2024, 01:19 PM

It depends upon how many owners your car has had. If your seller was the original owner, that helps a lot. If there has been several owners, it is hard to say what information was or was not passed along and the ability of someone to identify incorrect things.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 02:02 PM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Jan 20 2024, 03:19 PM)

It depends upon how many owners your car has had. If your seller was the original owner, that helps a lot. If there has been several owners, it is hard to say what information was or was not passed along and the ability of someone to identify incorrect things.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 20 2024, 02:34 PM

Most, but not quite all work I approved is shown on the emails in Post #3. The turbo tie rods & brake proportioning valve were approved verbally. Most all the rest I wasn’t consulted on and did not approve. I had a $10,000 credit on deposit with Jeff for an aborted build project on another 914/6:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=349520&hl=

… plus this ‘74 914 6-conversion intended for use in the aborted 914/6 project above:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=347745&hl=Rothsport
It was parted out and sold off later from Rothsport.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 20 2024, 05:48 PM

QUOTE(930cabman @ Jan 20 2024, 05:42 AM)

Much of life is in the past, at least for many of us old guys here. We can learn from our experiences or not, either way nothing behind us can be changed.

Your car is a born 914/6 and that in itself is

Get the items in need of repairs in order and enjoy her in good health

Overall she looks great and probably runs the same

Posted by: r_towle Jan 20 2024, 06:45 PM

We win/lose on cars.
Fix it and enjoy it.

Life is too short.
Have your moment of anger….decide to fix or sell
Then do it.

Just got my freshly rebuilt engine back into my 2006 911S….and I get it….shit happens.

I hope you can get to a point you enjoy the car.

I drove mine home a few weeks ago, after 9 months with no engine.
It’s amazing.

Make it yours….or sell it to the next guy.

Rich

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 07:40 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 20 2024, 07:48 PM)

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 20 2024, 07:41 PM

QUOTE(r_towle @ Jan 20 2024, 08:45 PM)

Posted by: mepstein Jan 20 2024, 07:43 PM

I would start asking around your area to see who can do the needed repairs. Doesn’t necessarily have to be a Porsche shop. Just someone with some skill and a place to do the work. Good luck with the car. Many of us have been in similar situations. Disappointing but get things fixed, put it behind you and enjoy the car.

Posted by: sixnotfour Jan 20 2024, 08:15 PM

Haha I lived in wa ,,,call John ,, ask Gamroth for a refund.. caveat emptor
My GT was there..

Posted by: mate914 Jan 20 2024, 08:27 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 20 2024, 06:48 PM)

QUOTE(930cabman @ Jan 20 2024, 05:42 AM)

Much of life is in the past, at least for many of us old guys here. We can learn from our experiences or not, either way nothing behind us can be changed.

Your car is a born 914/6 and that in itself is

Get the items in need of repairs in order and enjoy her in good health

Overall she looks great and probably runs the same

Lots of sound ideas posted, including this one. Thanks guys.

I’ll take awhile deciding how to proceed. But I think one important factor is whether I can do the work myself. It’s been my practice since my first car repair disappointment in 1971. Central will be whether there’s any welding involved; something not in my repertoire. Another factor is whether rust removal, prep, priming and painting can be accomplished without further interior disassembly than seats, backpad, carpet, etc., without damaging other car surfaces, or creating a hazardous environment in the garage. I have no room in my home garage, and the car’s a “guest” in my wife’s two car garage alongside her Toyota. Thoughts?

Posted by: 73-914 Jan 20 2024, 10:39 PM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Jan 20 2024, 02:19 PM)

It depends upon how many owners your car has had. If your seller was the original owner, that helps a lot. If there has been several owners, it is hard to say what information was or was not passed along and the ability of someone to identify incorrect things.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 20 2024, 10:42 PM

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I should have been clearer. Seeking thoughts on if and how complete rust repair can best be accomplished (if no metal removal or welding is required) within these constraints:

1) removal of only those interior items necessary to expose the entire floor surface; seats, backpad, carpet, seat belts, while covering the dash & gages and door panels as necessary, and without affecting exterior car surfaces. In the past I did an acceptable limited rattle can rocker panel repaint with an Automotive Touchup brand color matching paint and thorough masking in my garage.
2) work cannot create a hazardous, noxious or dirty environment in the garage.

And would it be a good idea to remove the undercoating to inspect for rust there too? Remove entirely? … or just spot check in the most likely rust prone areas?

Finally, if floor pan section(s) need replacement, what extent of disassembly will be required?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jan 21 2024, 06:10 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 21 2024, 12:42 AM)

Posted by: peteinjp Jan 21 2024, 07:18 AM

Just read through this thread- sorry to hear of your troubles but not too surprised. The engine in my car was done at Rothsport and while it goes great at WOT there were several things that I would have expected to be better given the reputation of the shop including one that resulted in fuel being sprayed all over the engine. I will be pulling my engine to go back on the dyno to double check the rest of the tuning as the throttles can’t be synced at idle and there is a knock at certain RPMs. Kinda feels like they just pushed the job though.

I doubt that Gunther has any issues with the details of the work done there. Just sayin.

Anyway I agree with Superhawk. I hate know that something is not up to snuff on my cars but these days I have to ask myself how I want to spend my time. Also wire brush on a grinder is the way I have removed rust like that in the past. It usually ends up revealing hidden pin holes in the metal while simultaneously making a big mess. I’d definitely want to do that work outside.

If I were to take the job without welding and it turned out that there are holes I have used tigers hair to resurface the sheet metal before with good results. But again- getting it sanded down with the orbital sander is a dusty job.

Given the garage situation I’d wait till the next winter season and farm this one out to a pro.

Pete

Posted by: Rufus Jan 21 2024, 08:33 AM

QUOTE(peteinjp @ Jan 21 2024, 06:18 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 21 2024, 08:49 AM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jan 21 2024, 05:10 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 21 2024, 12:42 AM)

And would it be a good idea to remove the undercoating to inspect for rust there too? Remove entirely? … or just spot check in the most likely rust prone areas?

No.

914 floor pans typically rust from inside out from water accumulated inside by leaking rear window, leaking side window seals, and if the top gets left off in the rain. That moisture gets under the tar and does its thing over time.

Working on underbody is a PITA without a hoist or rotisserie. Can be done but it’s not terribly fun.

By removing the factory tar from the interior, you’ll know what you’re dealing with. If you have heavy rust that has perforated, you will be able to tell after the tar is removed.

Once you see what you have underneath the tar, you can come up with an action plan.

Honestly, given how few miles you’ve driven, why even mess with it right now?

Go drive. Decide if you even want to keep the car before opening up a can of worms and doing some sort of repair that will potentially devalue the car if not done properly.

Posted by: dstudeba Jan 21 2024, 09:33 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 21 2024, 06:49 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 21 2024, 10:01 AM

QUOTE(dstudeba @ Jan 21 2024, 08:33 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 21 2024, 06:49 AM)

I face the choice between making progress by addressing the rust now, and selfishly enjoying the car now, and letting things go. I’ll happily sacrifice some of the time I have left to ease things on her later on. As they say, Karma’s a b____.

Does you daughter intend to keep the car when she gets it? I am heavily involved in collecting baseball cards. Many of my fellow collectors have plans to either sell their collections before they go or have a detailed plan on another expert to sell it. If she would rather have the cash than the car I would make a plan for the car that doesn't involve her having to move it. You likely know how to get a higher return on it and it is one less thing that she will have to deal with.

And then if she wants to keep it, what is her opinion on the repairs?

Posted by: jhynesrockmtn Jan 22 2024, 07:41 PM

Sorry to hear of your experience with Rothsport. I know the name, but nothing of their reputation.

On the upside, you have a nice car and hopefully any repairs needed won't be too extreme.

It's nice that your daughter is interested in the car(s). Out of the 5 kids between my wife and I, my son is the youngest at 31. He actually bought my 83 911 from me a few years ago but wants to sell it back. Being in the military, gone a lot and with a young family, he's just not using the car. I'll end up with that, my 356 and a few 914's. My goal is to thin the herd a bit and then discuss with him long term about whether he wants any of them. I'm 61, so I have some time, but I don't want to leave a mess for my kids to handle.

Posted by: iankarr Jan 24 2024, 04:29 PM

If the PPI is done by a guy doing the work, and so many things were noticed after the PPI, the cost of the PPI should’ve been credited against the total. With a community as strong as ours, I’ve found that most people will do a PPI as a pay-it-forward courtesy or for a nominal fee to cover their expenses. I usually just ask for a donation to St. Jude’s. Any purchase of 15K and I’ll travel to see the car before purchasing. The plane ticket is cheap insurance.

All this said, it looks like you have a great car to enjoy. And profit from if you decide to sell.

Posted by: Rufus Jan 24 2024, 11:07 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=20100 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=18749 Thanks for your thoughts and kind words guys.

After time researching and considering the situation, my determination to make the car right hasn’t changed; hopefully will do it myself, as I prefer.

Will post photos as I get into the process of exposing the floorpan.

I think the 914 has the perfect combination of practicality, size, overall performance attributes, and is a blast to drive.

Posted by: Cairo94507 Jan 25 2024, 07:51 AM

Congratulations! You will not regret it.

Posted by: MikeK Jan 25 2024, 09:18 AM

If my now deceased Father would have left me a car that nice, I would have little concern about some hidden rust.

Posted by: burton73 Jan 25 2024, 10:40 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840


These pictures make it look easy but, here is what the pan replacement looks like. When you open up the bottom, you can fix of reinforce the clutch tube that has or will go out. It is just a matter of time for all 914s. Do it right because no matter what the documenting of this work is very important for resale and you want the comfort of knowing it is right. Mine was done on a lift. Mine is a real 6, the 30th one down the line

Best Bob B

Posted by: Rufus Jan 25 2024, 12:33 PM

QUOTE(burton73 @ Jan 25 2024, 09:40 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Jan 25 2024, 12:39 PM

QUOTE(Cairo94507 @ Jan 25 2024, 06:51 AM)

Congratulations! You will not regret it.

QUOTE(MikeK @ Jan 25 2024, 08:18 AM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 3 2024, 07:08 PM

I stumbled upon this thread while perusing the early911sregistry. Although I normally refrain from engaging publicly in dirty laundry discussions, I feel compelled to in this case due to the multiple things being inferred, and to set the record straight. My response is not to refute or contest what Rufus states. I too would be unhappy if I bought a car that was significantly different than what I thought I was getting, and that Karma is a nasty lady. This is simply my contribution to “just the facts”.

First and foremost, I'm genuinely sad and disappointed to learn that Rufus isn't happy with the car. This car was sold in good faith and with no effort to deceive or mislead, just as every other car I've ever sold. The transaction went smoothly and we stayed in communication for a while, afterwards. I thought I had a new friend and would've been happy to answer any questions he had, even long after I sold it.

I bought this car from a gentleman in Tacoma, Washington. It was his pride and joy. (He also had two 914-4s.) I had the PPI done and engine dyno'd by Chris Powell at Chris's German Auto in Redmond Washington, prior to purchase. Chris is a PCA Nation Technical Committee Member and answers technical questions for 1974 - 1994 911s in Panorama. Chris's assessment was although tired and having needs, the car was solid overall. Knowing restoral wouldn't be cheap, he asked: "How badly do you want a 914-6?" I was happy to find a decent specimen relatively close to home and said: "Pretty badly." To my knowledge, I became the 4th owner.

I kept the car for a couple of years while deciding exactly what I wanted to do and began to gather parts, including a set of beautifully restored 7X15 Fuchs with RSR finish, courtesy of Harvey Wiedman. I was particularly proud of sourcing some NOS genuine 914-6 GT vented rear rotors still in boxes and wax paper, so I wouldn’t have to use cut-down 911 rear rotors with the incorrect offset.

Some research and inquiries within the local Porsche community led me to Rillos Restoration in Kent, Washington. Rillos has a good reputation and has done some award-winning cars. Although mostly American, he had a couple of 911s and a 4-cam 356 while I was there. The only caution I received was to keep an eye on billable hours because it's easy for things to get out of control. There was never a suggestion of unethical charging or poor workmanship. It was indeed a “no expense spared” (relatively, and within reason) body restoration with some desirable functional updates.

Interior work was performed by Steve Shepp at Classic Interior Restorations in Ballard, Washington. Steve was popular with the Ferrari crowd and has done some Pebble Beach award cars. It was one of the very last cars he ever did.

Chris Powell finished the engine and transmission refreshment while the body and interior work were done, so the car then went back to Chris's for mechanicals installation. Lots of little things to be sorted out along the way and some imperfections, but at no point was there any mention of major concerns with the work that had previously been done.

I kept the car for a couple of years and finally decided to sell because 1) The car was kept at a weekend place in Central Washington. Although a hoot to drive and the local roads there are much more conducive to spirited driving than Seattle, I never seemed to have the time to drive it as much as I wanted to. There always seemed to be something else that needed to be worked on or required attention. 2) I was dealing with some minor health issues at the time and wasn’t sure how much recreational driving I’d be up for going forward. So, I posted the car for sale on 914World. All restoral and service receipt documentation was passed along to the buyer.

To address some of the specific points:

1) RUST. Although there was some minor (mostly) cosmetic body rust, the multiple expert consensus (Kirsten Rillos, Chris Powell, and Mark Akers) was the car was surprisingly free of rust for being a Western Washington car its whole life. The only part that needed to be replaced due to rust was the battery tray. No damage to the longitudinal, etc. I know how expensive rust repair is. I would not have bought the car if I knew it had major rust issues. The car was always garaged and never even driven in the rain during my ownership. It was mostly garaged on the dry side of the state.

Unless things have dramatically changed, I firmly believe what looks like floorpan rust is only damage to the sound deadening material on top. I noticed that during painting and asked Kirsten about it. He reassured me it wasn’t serious and there was no evidence of damage from the underside when he removed the old undercoating. It became a “Oh well, that’s under the seats and not visible” thing. It was one of the few cost-control concessions and I never questioned the solidity of the floorboards. I never sensed any weakness or give to them, and definitely would’ve replaced them had I known they were suspect. Why go to the trouble of welding in a rear suspension stiffening kit but not address a suspect floorpan? I even had a patch panel welded into the firewall where a hole had been cut so the timing marks on the fan pully could be more easily seen. (A practical consideration since 911 cases don't have the notch for seeing the marks on the flywheel, as 914-6 cases do.) If there were any major rust issues, then three reputable shops never raised the concern. Four if you want to include the Interior guy who had the car for over a year.

2) ACCIDENT DAMAGE. This car was never advertised as “accident-free”. I believe one or both of the first two owners tracked the car. The story I got from the third owner was one of them, or one of their wives, did a little off-roading one day at the track and damaged the front end, presumably necessitating a front slam panel replacement. I'm not sure the hood was even replaced. Rillos noticed it wasn’t quite correct for a 1970 while fitting the front valance, I had sourced. I forget the details of the fix, but he altered it to make it appear correct. As far as the disclosure form (post #51), it’s hard to read, but the attestation on line 1 is the car never sustained accident damage greater than 25% of it’s value, which is true.

3) DRIVABILITY ISSUES: I too noticed the gas smell. That’s why I replaced the original plastic fuel line with braided steel over rubber. Much less noticeable afterwards and I attributed any lingering smells to the carburetors. There are a couple of threads on 914World, which I researched heavily, discussing whether or not a 1970 914-6 should have a charcoal tank vapor capture cannister.

I didn't have nearly as many electrical issues. The turn signal switch was broken when I bought the car. I sourced a used replacement and Akers installed it. The washer pump needed to be replaced. The horns were anemic, so I replaced them with used Bosch Mercedes units. The only broken wire I remember was to one of the rear license lights, which I fixed myself. Never a problem with headlights, etc. In hindsight, I could've replaced the wiring harness, but I didn't because it seemed serviceable and new is not always better.

There should be no gas tank sediment as the tank was supposedly cleaned and sealed by Chris’s. Ditto for the fuel tank screen sock. Both are big surprises and definitely should've been taken care of by Chris's.

Although far from great condition, the car was driven to Rennsport and back by the previous owner. AFAIK, without issues. And, that was before any restoration efforts.

4) GAMROTH PPI. Jeff Gamroth made the trek from south of Portland to Central Washington with one of his employees to do the PPI. They did an engine-cold compression and leakdown test before firing it up for further inspection and listening for any inappropriate noises. They seemed to know what they were doing. Jeff and I then went for a test drive and I guarantee he pushed the car harder than I ever did. Then again, he’s a professional driver. They showed up again a few weeks later with a box trailer after the sale had been completed and took the car back to Jeff’s shop. I can’t comment on subsequent inspection or work.


Bottom line: It’s a real shame that this car has received such unfavorable attention. It was never intended to be a Concours contender or presented as a perfect 100 pt. restoration. It was sold as a 50+ year old, mildly hot-rodded, driver-quality car which frequently received unsolicited compliments. Nathan Merz, Columbia Valley Luxury Cars and regular PCA contributor, took a look at the car for a celebrity client when it was for sale. Although not a formal PPI, he has a practiced eye and poked around pretty good. He passed on the car and I didn't ask why, but didn't get the sense it was because of quality concerns. My guess is his client was looking for something more original.

Lastly and FWIW: Mark Akers, the owner of Akers Porsche, became quite familiar with this car for service and regular maintenance both before and after the restoration was completed. He was interested in buying it when he found out I was selling, but the timing wasn’t good for him. It was mid-pandemic and many were being careful with their discretionary spending. I don’t know, but suspect that extended to his customers, as well. He called me about a year later to ask if I still had the car and was disappointed to learn it had been sold. He subsequently told me, and has repeated to several other folks, that he regretted not buying it.

Rufus, I suggest with no snarkiness at all, that you might want to contact him if you’re really unhappy with the car. Mark knows the car well and certainly has the talent and resources to address any outstanding deficiencies. I spent over $120K on the purchase and restoration, fully knowing I would never get it back. I advertised it at $59,500 and sold it to you for $56,500. That still seems like a pretty good deal to me, even accounting for the unexpected warts. You should be OK financially, although I know that doesn’t address your frustration or disappointment.

- MR

Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 3 2024, 07:50 PM

The End..

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 3 2024, 10:27 PM

QUOTE(sixnotfour @ Feb 3 2024, 05:50 PM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 4 2024, 03:10 PM

Full disclosure: I've edited my post above a couple of times as additional details came to mind.


- MR

Posted by: Mikey914 Feb 4 2024, 03:31 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840 I guess that the bottom line is If you could buy it for what you have into it to date in the condition it's in, would you?
As there aren't many of these, the answer may be yes. Not as good of a deal, but you will have the knowledge that you can be assured of the condition, once done.

There is no good outcome without spending money, either litigation, or restoration. Restoration is the best value in my opinion. You may get lucky on the floorboards, use the dry ice technique. MUCH faster.

Posted by: mepstein Feb 4 2024, 04:18 PM

We do PPI’s at our shop with the caveat that there are no warranties or guarantees. It’s only an opinion of condition and we might miss something. Actually, we are sure to miss something because until you chemically dip the car, it’s all a guess. It’s almost impossible to know what’s under the paint, inside the trans or how much material is worn off the engine bearings. 50 year old cars, multiple owners, multiple people servicing and repairing the vehicle. I don’t like to hear about anyone getting taken advantage or getting less than they expect but no matter how careful you are, it’s still a lottery.
I do hope the OP gets a chance to work things out and enjoy the car.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 4 2024, 06:03 PM

The first 10 minutes of process of exposing the driver’s side floorboard:


Attached image(s)

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 4 2024, 07:03 PM

Progress.

I am just about 99% convinced there is no rust free 914.

Either way, great example

Posted by: mate914 Feb 4 2024, 07:38 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 4 2024, 07:03 PM)

Posted by: mate914 Feb 4 2024, 07:45 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 4 2024, 07:03 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 4 2024, 07:49 PM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 4 2024, 06:38 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 4 2024, 07:03 PM)

The first 10 minutes of process of exposing the driver’s side floorboard:

Why the time stamp?
Matt

Posted by: Craigers17 Feb 5 2024, 05:43 AM

Those floorboards look really solid so far. In a best case scenario, every floor I've ever seen underneath that coating looks similar to yours...a little surface rust and dirt. While I understand some of your frustration that this should have been addressed before paint, I'd say your car looks very solid. Congrats!

Posted by: mb911 Feb 5 2024, 05:45 AM

Looks like it will clean up nicely

Posted by: VaccaRabite Feb 5 2024, 10:48 AM

Those floors are pristine.

You have started so you may as well finish stripping them of the tar. Then clean them and paint them and put a modern sound insulator on them (Dynamat or similar) and forget about them. They are fine.

I'd also consider taking down anything with personal information on it from your post. That's really not cool.

I hate seeing these types of posts. They don't break rules, but they do nothing to forward the forum or the love of these cars. And they tend to irrevocably destroy possible roads forward between the poster and whoever they have beef with.

Good luck. It looks like you got a really killer car!

Zach

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 5 2024, 12:21 PM

Much ado about very little.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 5 2024, 12:50 PM

And after a little wire brushing (under the driver’s knees) today with my Milwaukee M12:


Attached image(s)

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 5 2024, 02:14 PM

Looks quite pitted, got to be some section loss

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 5 2024, 05:28 PM

Very typical of rust under the tar.

Better to get the tar off so it doesn’t continue to hold moisture.

Keep going.


Ditch the screwdriver.

Oscillating multi-tool with a scraper will make quick work of it. Dry ice also works well if you have somewhere convenient to get it in bulk.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 5 2024, 05:48 PM

Thanks for your encouragement Superhawk. The screwdriver’s only a weight to temporarily hold back the leather / vinyl trim while working. Using sharpened paint scrapers for now. After removing the easy stuff, will switch to either locally available dry ice or a version of your suggested vibe tool with scraper blade to attack the tar.
Thanks for your advise

I’ll get there eventually…

Posted by: Karl R Feb 5 2024, 07:02 PM

I have recently had good luck using Evaporust in these sorts of situations. For example, you can fill that channel and let it sit there and come back with wire brush and scotch brite pads from time to time. This has allowed me to remove all the rust, while removing less total metal. The process above will expose pits that remain full of rust or converted rust . I generally go into the pits with a small ball diamond dremil bit and try to get down to bare metal without making a hole that goes all the way through.

Posted by: mb911 Feb 5 2024, 07:33 PM

With a brush or spray bottle use this after you get it pretty clean. Let it sit for a good 30 minutes then wipe with water to neutralize. Then once dry quick Scotch brite , wipe, epoxy primer.

Posted by: sixaddict Feb 5 2024, 07:36 PM

Unfortunately this story is far too common. As Mark said there is no warranty with PPI from any shop. Seems shops are reluctant to call out bad cars as they become the bad guy. A 100 years ago the best shop in town ( in an unnamed city) looked over a car I bought. After I owned it I showed the owner something significant ….. his response “ lm embarrassed “ …..they didn’t connect the proverbial dots. We were and still are friendly today…… s____ happens.
On line purchasing biggest boon to sale of bad cars for all that’s worth.
I have never purchased a car that seller was forthcoming about deficiencies……the problem is when they misrepresent the car.
Good luck with car however and where ever this goes.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 5 2024, 08:11 PM

QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 5 2024, 09:33 PM)

With a brush or spray bottle use this after you get it pretty clean. Let it sit for a good 30 minutes then wipe with water to neutralize. Then once dry quick Scotch brite , wipe, epoxy primer.

Posted by: mb911 Feb 5 2024, 08:20 PM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 5 2024, 06:11 PM)

QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 5 2024, 09:33 PM)

With a brush or spray bottle use this after you get it pretty clean. Let it sit for a good 30 minutes then wipe with water to neutralize. Then once dry quick Scotch brite , wipe, epoxy primer.

Same stuff as Ospho

The critical step is to ensure it’s neutralized after application.

I’m not sure what directions are on the bottle Ben is recommending (local big box stuff). Ospho implies that you can paint over it - this is true for an outdoor metal railing using an oil based paint but has zero applicability to automotive epoxy / urethane finish.

Must be rinsed / neutralized prior to primer and dried thoroughly.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 5 2024, 08:22 PM

@ Karl R @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9892 Not sure how this’ll work out, but I foresee working in patchwork fashion in stages; possibly completely prepping some before others.

Thanks for your ideas! I’ve been considering Evaporust, but concerned how easy it is it to neutralize & wash sufficiently in the floorpan without drainage. Just wash down with wet towels or cloths several times, then rust preventative or metal prep depending on work schedule? I welcome any experience with that.

Curious about the same things re Kleen Strip metal prep, mb911.


Ooooops … sorry Ben / Superhawk, you addressed this while I was typing. Cheers

Posted by: Mikey914 Feb 6 2024, 11:44 AM

Spray bottle and vacuum from a shop vac. suck it up as you spray it down.

Posted by: technicalninja Feb 6 2024, 12:06 PM

I keep a dedicated "wet" vac ready to go.

Absolute best way to clean and dry out carpet and padding that has been SOAKED in antifreeze due to a heater core leak. You have to drench the floor in water a couple of times to dilute the coolant. PIA

Sometimes I'll go through a couple of "drain the vacuum" procedures during a carpet cleaning so I'm moving 5-10 gallons of liquid.

It would work great for tub flushing.

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 6 2024, 03:25 PM

QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Jan 19 2024, 02:09 PM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 6 2024, 03:29 PM

QUOTE(lalee914 @ Jan 20 2024, 07:21 AM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 6 2024, 03:41 PM

QUOTE(VaccaRabite @ Feb 5 2024, 08:48 AM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 6 2024, 03:53 PM

I had to take a break from posting to this thread for a day to get my blood pressure back under control.

I empathize with Rufus' frustrations. I too had disappointments along the way. It took much longer (7+ years) and cost a lot more than I expected. I got tired of writing multi-thousand dollar checks without getting the car. I was particularly annoyed that the car didn't run quite right when I got it back from Chris's - the carbs popped under partial load. So, exasperated and deeply disappointed, I took the car to Akers for diagnosis. Turned out to be carburetor jetting. Ironically, I embarked on this restoration because I knew it was better to do my own restoration than buy somebody else's. I would know what had and hadn't been done, even if more expensive. Or, so I thought.

Here's the major shop expenses. There were plenty of others. Please note these are only expenses directly related to restoral. No initial PPI, subsequent service/maintenance, etc. Rufus has all the receipts, but I still have the Quicken report for reference.

Rillos: $60K+
Classic Interiors: $10K+
Chris's: $20K+

I realize this is no guarantee of quality workmanship, but doesn't quite strike me as a "budget conscious" restoral effort. What I don't understand is all of the niggling problems he's had since. All the lights, horns, wipers, headlight motors, etc. worked when I sold the car. The car was driven multiple times back and forth between Seattle and Central Washington without drama. I thought it was pretty well sorted by the time it was sold. Then I remind myself these are 50+ year old machines that technically qualify as antiques.

I take no responsibility for the Rothsport inspection or subsequent work. The PPI was done in my garage and I don't have a lift. $1000 doesn't seem too out of line for a 4+ hr. drive each way. Although a hassle, I would've willingly taken the car to any Seattle area shop of Rufus' choosing for a more comprehensive inspection, had Rufus requested. Personally, I would've installed a front oil cooler as the factory did instead of the rear trunk setup chosen if I was convinced additional cooling was warranted. But, it wasn't my car at that point and I figured Rothsport knew what they were doing. I have no idea what changes that introduced.

Did I try to present the car in the most favorable light? Of course I did. But that's far different than knowingly selling a defective car.

Original FS post here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=346147 It's an interesting read with plenty of pictures and a few videos. Please note the (post #34) snip:




Unfortunately, this car is now forever tainted by this very public story. Any prospective buyer who does any digging at all will find this. I have a friend who plans to sell his beautiful mid-80s Mercedes with sub-9K miles. I previously suggested he try to sell it private party, since I've had favorable experiences doing so. No longer. I've since advised him to use a broker instead.

I'm very interested in learning what's discovered with the floorpan. If truly bad, then the two well-respected Seattle area shops actively involved in the restoration, plus his PPI provider, failed both of us miserably.

- MR

Posted by: Karl R Feb 6 2024, 04:10 PM

I've used a bunch of things for rust removal: battery acid, prep and etch, muradic acid, Evaporust.... Pretty much since the start of the iron age folks have been peddling rust removal miracles, so lots of choices. I'm kinda new to the Evaporust, but so far I am super impressed. Not only is it effective at getting back to shiny bare metal, but it is easy on eyes, hands, paint, plating, etc. It removes only rust. It is Ph neutral so nothing to neutralize after. I just rinse and prime. Where you cannot make a puddle, like you can here, I soak a bit of micro fiber cloth, put that on the rust and cover with plastic for a few days.
On the other hand, don't bother with their rust prevention product, RustBlock. It IS non oily, which is nice, but it does not seem to give very solid rust prevention.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 6 2024, 08:13 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 6 2024, 05:53 PM)

Posted by: mepstein Feb 6 2024, 08:52 PM

I don’t think it’s tainted. It’s now just very accurately represented. I’m sorry about all the trouble the current and past owners have gone through but it should be a really nice car once it’s finished up.

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 6 2024, 08:59 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Feb 6 2024, 08:52 PM)

Posted by: Mikey914 Feb 6 2024, 09:00 PM

Regards of if there were shortcomings, there are concepts that should be noted.
Don’t create conflicts of interest, that way if a PPI is not through, there’s no financial reward. At least it won’t be salt in the wound.

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 7 2024, 11:44 AM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 6 2024, 06:13 PM)

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 7 2024, 03:22 PM

QUOTE(wonkipop @ Feb 6 2024, 09:59 PM)

QUOTE(mepstein @ Feb 6 2024, 08:52 PM)

I don’t think it’s tainted. It’s now just very accurately represented. I’m sorry about all the trouble the current and past owners have gone through but it should be a really nice car once it’s finished up.

50 year old cars.
its a wonder they are still here!
karmann built them to disappear (russian steel from ukraine i believe?)/
every 914, but especially sixes deserves every bit of care it can get.

i think most of the first owners drove the things like they stole them and left them parked out in the rain and snow because.........next years model was going to be even better and their six would just be an old beater bomb. (little did they know they were gonna be doomed to a two decade run of water cooled alternatives to the stockbrokers pumped up beetle).

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 8 2024, 12:10 PM

I sometimes ask myself if nagging Chris towards the end to get the car back contributed to the fact it wasn't running right after he was done with it. I stayed in touch with the previous owner, visited him occasionally, and kept him updated on the progress. The sad fact was he was in declining health and I wanted him to see the car, literally before it was too late. IMO, that's still no excuse for letting me have the car with incorrect carb jetting. Quite possibly, they were never corrected to match the new cams.

Two additional data points:
1) The crests on the center caps were hand painted by Harvey Weidman's wife. I thought they were a nice touch.
2) The dashboard is original to the car and in excellent condition. Steve Shepp would never have let it leave his shop, if subpar compared to the new carpeting and reupholstered seats and backpad.

Below is a picture taken outside the PO's assisted living home when he first saw the car again. I gave him a framed picture to keep. He hung on longer than I expected, but is also now gone.





- MR

Posted by: Rufus Feb 10 2024, 08:06 PM

Quote from 5/31/2020 Advertisement:
“- New Elgin 306/288-106 camshafts.”

Service invoice provided after the sale. Started with used Delta cams and had them reground:


Attached image(s)

Posted by: wonkipop Feb 10 2024, 11:15 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 8 2024, 12:10 PM)

I sometimes ask myself if nagging Chris towards the end to get the car back contributed to the fact it wasn't running right after he was done with it. I stayed in touch with the previous owner, visited him occasionally, and kept him updated on the progress. The sad fact was he was in declining health and I wanted him to see the car, literally before it was too late. IMO, that's still no excuse for letting me have the car with incorrect carb jetting. Quite possibly, they were never corrected to match the new cams.

Two additional data points:
1) The crests on the center caps were hand painted by Harvey Weidman's wife. I thought they were a nice touch.
2) The dashboard is original to the car and in excellent condition. Steve Shepp would never have let it leave his shop, if subpar compared to the new carpeting and reupholstered seats and backpad.

Below is a picture taken outside the PO's assisted living home when he first saw the car again. I gave him a framed picture to keep. He hung on longer than I expected, but is also now gone.





- MR

Posted by: Cairo94507 Feb 11 2024, 08:49 AM

I think it is wonderful that you took the car back to visit the previous owner for him to see and have some great memories before he passed away.

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 11 2024, 02:01 PM

90k spread over 3 businesses is a lot of money to me. A LOT!

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 12 2024, 01:05 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 10 2024, 06:06 PM)

Posted by: mb911 Feb 12 2024, 04:03 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Feb 11 2024, 12:01 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 15 2024, 01:11 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14145


Attached image(s)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 15 2024, 05:57 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 15 2024, 11:11 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 15 2024, 06:08 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 15 2024, 04:57 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 15 2024, 11:11 AM)

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14145

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840 : I don't know what to tell you. Certainly not great, but I still don't know how bad that is. Is the pan soft or perforated, or is the Wurth undercoating compromised? Hopefully, the unbiased here will chime in.

Bottom line: I certainly would've had that fixed if Rillos hadn't assured me it wasn't an issue.

- MR

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 15 2024, 06:14 PM

The second pic:



- MR

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 15 2024, 06:23 PM

One more. Unfortunately, I can't tell exactly where underneath the car these pics were taken. They were all sent to me by Rillos as work was in progress.



- MR

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 15 2024, 08:50 PM

Here's a copy of the PPI I received when I purchased the car. Please note on Page 3 (circled) that the underbody was inspected and no mention of rust issues. I believe Rufus has the paper copy.

 PPI_Report_redacted.pdf ( 2.96mb ) Number of downloads: 26


- MR

Posted by: bkrantz Feb 15 2024, 09:07 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 15 2024, 06:23 PM)

One more. Unfortunately, I can't tell exactly where underneath the car these pics were taken. They were all sent to me by Rillos as work was in progress.



- MR

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 15 2024, 11:00 PM

I guess i’ll be the bad guy . . . Shame on Rillos for just rubbing seam sealer over that and then spraying undercoat.

$60k ? it has become almost impossible to find real craftsmanship in this world.

I just feel terrible for both of you.

The good news is that it is is a /6 and its a survivor and there isnt anything there that hasn’t been dealt with before.

Posted by: mate914 Feb 16 2024, 05:47 AM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 15 2024, 06:57 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 15 2024, 11:11 AM)

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=14145

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840 : I don't know what to tell you. Certainly not great, but I still don't know how bad that is. Is the pan soft or perforated, or is the Wurth undercoating compromised? Hopefully, the unbiased here will chime in.

Bottom line: I certainly would've had that fixed if Rillos hadn't assured me it wasn't an issue.

Below are a couple of underside pics prior to Wurth undercoating for reference:




- MR

Posted by: mb911 Feb 16 2024, 02:14 PM

Some basic input here after going through all of this

I think the only people to blame are the shops. I don’t think that floor pan would have been discovered in a ppi as it appears it was well hidden.

Only step forward is to properly repair it which if it were in my neck of the woods I would fix that area for around $1000 and it would be undetectable. I hope to see this thread move in a positive direction now.

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 16 2024, 03:03 PM

I think I'm about done posting to this thread. I'm trying hard not to be defensive, but I feel like I'm on public trial. Not sure how much more of value I can add at this point, anyway.

Upon closer inspection now, it appears Rillos might've (I can't tell for sure) used body filler to "fix" the floorpan from below (Post #127). If so, I don't know why he did that instead of welding and he never said anything to me about it at the time. Had he said "This should be welded up.", I would've immediately said "Do it.".

Frankly, I didn't look at the pictures he sent too closely then and simply thought "Oh, he's just cleaning up the bottom before undercoating". I trusted him to take care of what needed fixing and to do a good job. Perhaps that's why he didn't want to do anything from the top side of the pan. IDK.

I again refer to the initial PPI (Post #128, page 4). Although numerous mechanical defects and the front panel repair were noted, they inspected the bodywork and underside and no rust issues were pointed out. I would've gladly shared all the restoration pictures I received and the PPI with any prospective buyer or inspection shop, if requested. Perhaps those items would've informed a different purchase decision.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840 : I feel your frustration and disappointment. I'm still confused why you started poking around under the seats in the first place though, unless it was a quest to find everything possibly wrong with the car? Did your subsequent scraping and wire brushing remove the "repair" that Rillos did, and that exposed the holes?

Do I regret buying the car? Yes and No. It was a journey and I learned a lot. For the time and money I spent, I could've bought and enjoyed a brand new Porsche for multiple years. But, I didn't want a new Porsche. I wanted a new OLD Porsche. Plus, it was my redemption project for totaling another genuine 914-6 in my youth. I believed it was a desirable and well sorted car by the time I let it go.

I also learned that Father Time takes his toll despite our best efforts, and this lesson has since extended to a couple of my other hobbies. What we nostalgically remember as problem-free mechanical devices from a half century ago now have an inevitable degree of frailty, simply due to age. Just like we do.

Lubricants dry up. Metal oxidizes and fatigues. Plastic, rubber, and fiber parts become brittle from innumerable hot and cold cycles and weather exposure, and eventually they fail. It's a true labor of love to keep these cars operational and there's always something that isn't working quite perfectly. Parts, especially -6 specific parts, are becoming harder and harder to find. Some are unobtanium. As another poster noted, it's a miracle so many 914s have been saved and are still road-worthy today.

- MR

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 16 2024, 03:15 PM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 16 2024, 03:47 AM)

"Hopefully, the unbiased here will chime in" Not sure what this is implying?

Matt

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 16 2024, 04:40 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 16 2024, 05:03 PM)

Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 16 2024, 05:27 PM

Reading through this thread (took a few minutes), I wouldn't put any fault on either the last or current owners. You both did what you could before buying, tried to represent as best you could.

Rust happens, especially on 914's.

It's honestly been a very interesting read and I'm looking forward to seeing some of the fixes.

Posted by: Craigers17 Feb 16 2024, 05:44 PM

I think the information from both parties was useful, and agree that the shops that performed the restoration work were probably the most culpable. That said, I think the OP's best option would be to start a new, fresh thread on the remaining restoration/modification of his already pretty damn cool 914/6. At a certain point you have to quit focusing on who or what "fricked" things up and focus on fixing the problems and the positive, fun aspects of driving and restoring the car.

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 16 2024, 06:02 PM

Is the picture in #123 the bottom of the center tunnel? #129 the light color smear had the cancer behind it? The really dark spots might be a rust conversion product. Get an ice pick and probe around. Move forward.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 16 2024, 07:11 PM

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 16 2024, 07:44 PM)

Posted by: jhynesrockmtn Feb 17 2024, 06:29 PM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 16 2024, 05:11 PM)

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 16 2024, 07:44 PM)

At a certain point you have to quit focusing on who or what "fricked" things up and focus on fixing the problems and the positive, fun aspects of driving and restoring the car.

This really is a nice car that 99.99% of us would be honored to steward through the next phase of its life. Perfection is elusive and those that find it end up with garage queens they can’t drive for fear of a stone chip. Don’t let the quest for perfection prevent you from enjoying this car.

Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 17 2024, 07:53 PM

I bought a 914 from one of the posters on this thread with a hellhole full of bondo... Long time ago.. well known 914 on world.. A small amount of money bfore its fame ..never the less .. Spilt Milk..

Posted by: Rufus Feb 20 2024, 11:32 AM

Firewall after 30 seconds of wire brushing by hand …


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Posted by: mate914 Feb 20 2024, 11:38 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 20 2024, 12:32 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 20 2024, 11:49 AM

Other side


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Posted by: Rufus Feb 20 2024, 11:54 AM

Firewall behind driver’s seat


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Posted by: Rufus Feb 20 2024, 03:44 PM

Again after 30 seconds of wire brushing by hand (behind driver’s seat)


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Posted by: Rufus Feb 20 2024, 05:30 PM

Behind passenger’s seat. As found; I.e. no wire brushing


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Posted by: 930cabman Feb 20 2024, 05:45 PM

Looks like, maybe tastes like, maybe smell like, must be .......

Great example, but the tin worm has taken residence

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 20 2024, 06:23 PM

Whatever you do. . . Don’t panic.

Typical 914 rust location and perforation.

You are probably at a point to stop and take stock of the situation.

Either keep digging and you’ll find more rust. It is not a joke that there is no such thing as a rust free 914. There is ALWAYS rust somewhere unless the car was acid dipped and e-coated. Even then, after a couple years, I’ll bet I can find some minor rust between seams.

Or

Clean up the floor pan tar, fix the minor rust there, seal it up and enjoy the car.

I guess you could also hit pause and do a full blown restoration. Usually I’d be all for that on my cars. I’m that way. But I can do all the work myself and my labor is “free”.

But given how much time and money is already in this car, why not just enjoy it for a while 1st? Especially given how hard it seems to be to find a shop doing quality work based on this thread as well as another thread that’s going on.

My random thoughts. I’m sure others will chime in.

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 20 2024, 06:54 PM

I have .02

Assuming you are not 20 or 30 or even 40 years of age, patch things up and enjoy this beauty. A full scale restoration is a major project with major $$ and major setbacks/delays.

Posted by: mate914 Feb 20 2024, 07:23 PM

Good thing the rust is not too bad on the firewall. That you should be able to treat the rust in the floor pans is a different story. I would suggest sealing the floor pan from both sides. Enjoying the car as much as you can over the summer. Next winter, find a 914 enthusiast or learn yourself. Most of the floor pan welding can be done from above, you don’t need a lift. You will crawl in the floor for a while, if you’re damaged goods like me, try to do it while it’s warm outside.
It’s not fast. It is humbling. We are here to help.
Matt

Posted by: bkrantz Feb 20 2024, 08:17 PM

So far, you have shown us nothing that is significantly structural. The floors might be almost a concern, and to fix them right would mean welding in new sections. But you could make a temp repair with some patches. Same with the firewall.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 21 2024, 10:52 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 … What’s the first thing to be addressed in doing a “full blown” or “full scale” restoration?

Posted by: mate914 Feb 21 2024, 10:58 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 21 2024, 11:52 AM)

Posted by: windforfun Feb 21 2024, 10:59 AM

Total disassembly first.

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 21 2024, 11:16 AM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 21 2024, 11:58 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 21 2024, 11:52 AM)

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=22428 @http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 … What’s the first step in doing a “full blown” or “full scale” restoration?

Like this 914-6 I am finishing?
Matt

Posted by: Rufus Feb 21 2024, 11:57 AM

After inspecting for structural deficiencies (no apparent reason to expect any in my case), what problem(s) would be next in line to address?

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 21 2024, 12:43 PM

Guys above have covered it.

I’ll answer as if it were my car.

Short term (this coming year): it is clear that to be a high dollar $100k type car it will need restoration - pans, patch panels work on firewall, and other areas to some degree. This isn’t saying there is anything outrageous. It just has some typical rust in typical areas that weren’t addressed by Rillos for whatever reason. Appears to have some paint runs in engine compartment - not sure if that was paint over of old paint or if Rillos did that?

I would stop digging for more rust. At this point, each time you find a new perforation, it’s just another area needing to be sealed or repaired properly (ie weld in metal).

I would finish removing floor pan tar. I would seal the small perforations with Wurth seam sealer. Epoxy paint interior floor pan with SprayMax 2k. Reapply undercoat to any exposed perforated areas underneath.

We’ll call it a short term redneck restoration.

Then I would drive it - enjoy it. Sort out whether there are any other unknown mechanical issues & document any you might want to address in future (gear box, suspension, seal leaks, etc).

Get to know the car and decide if it is the car to keep (I would) or if you want to sell it after you know it better. At this point, given the selling price and what you have in from Rothsport, you’re probably at or around a break even point. The longer you keep it, drive it, and enjoy it, the more value there is for you.

Long term - strip it down and go full bare metal rotisserie on it. When it goes back together that’s the time to take care of any of the mechanical issues you would have noted.

The problem here is:

1) Time - not sure how old you are or how long you want the car off the road. Less time to do resto = more cost. It’s the old saying - you can have quality, cheap, or quick: pick two.

2) This car is underwater financially already given the money put in by prior owner, your purchase cost, and the Rothsport bill. A full professionally done resto and quality re-paint only goes further in the hole - financially speaking. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do it. It is a /6 after all and they aren’t making any more. I don’t see this being a positive financial return in the short term but given current inflation rate, it won’t be cheaper to do in the near future than it will be now.

3) Quality labor is apparently way harder to find and way more expensive than it used to be. I would think you would need to reach out to some of the other /6 guys to get a 1st hand recommendation on who they used, and what it cost. Then put out for bids.

I don’t envy the decision about undertaking a full resto since you’ve indicated you’re not in a position to do it all yourself (no shame there). A full blown professional resto is a guarantee to lose lots of money. As I said previously the pursuit of perfection leads to a garage queen.

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 21 2024, 01:18 PM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 21 2024, 01:43 PM)

Guys above have covered it.

I’ll answer as if it were my car.

Short term (this coming year): it is clear that to be a high dollar $100k type car it will need restoration - pans, patch panels work on firewall, and other areas to some degree. This isn’t saying there is anything outrageous. It just has some typical rust in typical areas that weren’t addressed by Rillos for whatever reason. Appears to have some paint runs in engine compartment - not sure if that was paint over of old paint or if Rillos did that?

I would stop digging for more rust. At this point, each time you find a new perforation, it’s just another area needing to be sealed or repaired properly (ie weld in metal).

I would finish removing floor pan tar. I would seal the small perforations with Wurth seam sealer. Epoxy paint interior floor pan with SprayMax 2k. Reapply undercoat to any exposed perforated areas underneath.

We’ll call it a short term redneck restoration.

Then I would drive it - enjoy it. Sort out whether there are any other unknown mechanical issues & document any you might want to address in future (gear box, suspension, seal leaks, etc).

Get to know the car and decide if it is the car to keep (I would) or if you want to sell it after you know it better. At this point, given the selling price and what you have in from Rothsport, you’re probably at or around a break even point. The longer you keep it, drive it, and enjoy it, the more value there is for you.

Long term - strip it down and go full bare metal rotisserie on it. When it goes back together that’s the time to take care of any of the mechanical issues you would have noted.

The problem here is:

1) Time - not sure how old you are or how long you want the car off the road. Less time to do resto = more cost. It’s the old saying - you can have quality, cheap, or quick: pick two.

2) This car is underwater financially already given the money put in by prior owner, your purchase cost, and the Rothsport bill. A full professionally done resto and quality re-paint only goes further in the hole - financially speaking. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do it. It is a /6 after all and they aren’t making any more. I don’t see this being a positive financial return in the short term but given current inflation rate, it won’t be cheaper to do in the near future than it will be now.

3) Quality labor is apparently way harder to find and way more expensive than it used to be. I would think you would need to reach out to some of the other /6 guys to get a 1st hand recommendation on who they used, and what it cost. Then put out for bids.

I don’t envy the decision about undertaking a full resto since you’ve indicated you’re not in a position to do it all yourself (no shame there). A full blown professional resto is a guarantee to lose lots of money. As I said previously the pursuit of perfection leads to a garage queen.

Posted by: infraredcalvin Feb 21 2024, 04:37 PM

I'm enjoying your attention to detail and your sharing the dissection of your car, ultimately this will be valuable history/records for the car.

This seems to be therapeutic for you to really get to know your car and making it to your liking/expectations - everyone's expectations will be different. Keep up the progress, fix what can be fixed, keep getting to know your car.

But at some point, the next step will be to address handling and drivability...

Posted by: Rufus Feb 21 2024, 05:30 PM

QUOTE(infraredcalvin @ Feb 21 2024, 03:37 PM)

I'm enjoying your attention to detail and your sharing the dissection of your car, ultimately this will be valuable history/records for the car.

This seems to be therapeutic for you to really get to know your car and making it to your liking/expectations - everyone's expectations will be different. Keep up the progress, fix what can be fixed, keep getting to know your car.

But at some point, the next step will be to address handling and drivability...

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 21 2024, 06:33 PM

Do your own survey of the car. Relax, take your time, be thorough. Probe around with an ice pick. Not stab, probe. If the pick should go thru, it only leaves a tiny hole. Grinders leave scars. The car looks good. If it runs and handles, enjoy it. Convert any rust you might find with a converter product like Mar-Hyde. No one will know unless you point out the flaws.

Posted by: infraredcalvin Feb 21 2024, 08:45 PM

If you haven’t, take a look at Cairo's restorations thread, then his most recent post “evolution”… these cars are never done when getting to one’s own liking. Also note the new welding that’s about to occur, it can be done, and I’ll bet it’ll end up being an invisible upgrade.

Your car is perfect for your desire, fix the firewall, treat the topside of the floor, add undercoat below and tar above and drive… youll have a car that you wont necessarily worry about road rash. Finish the other projects then get back to this car…. At this point the goal should be to preserve, better the car if you can, stop the tinworm, it’ll retain its value just fine.

Posted by: mb911 Feb 22 2024, 05:19 AM

I must say the thought that the current rust situation on this car is a big deal on a 914 which litterly rusted the minute they left the factory is a bit comical. That said I do understand you bought this thinking these issues don’t exist. For a 914 it’s pretty easy to repair what you have found so far. Find someone local to repair it professionally and you will be all set. Martin mid engines Ben Martin would be on my list to contact if I was in your situation.

Ps you should look at my build thread as there probably is only 1/3 of the original metal left on my car.

Posted by: mb911 Feb 22 2024, 05:21 AM

Oops you’re in NC not the west coast. NC has to have some great welder fabricators in your area your in NASCAR territory

Posted by: Craigers17 Feb 22 2024, 05:44 AM

Given the general "vibe" of this thread, it feels like this whole experience has left a bad taste in your mouth. To a degree, I guess I can understand this. If it's something that you can't get past, it might be time to sell it, especially given all your other projects. The upside to that is that you can probably still get most of your money out of it due to the fact that it's a six.

On the other hand, you now have six that you are into at a reasonable amount of money. If you can move past the intial downer, you can still make the necessary repairs and own a piece of history at a very reasonable price. More importantly, you now get to drive a 914-6. That, in and of itself, would be enough for me.

If you go the route of keeping the car, Rusty Acres is in Western NC(Dlee6205 on this site), ....I'm sure he could help out with the rust repairs. Good luck no matter which way you go.

Posted by: mb911 Feb 22 2024, 05:55 AM

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 22 2024, 03:44 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 22 2024, 07:08 AM

Thanks for your input guys.

As I stated, based on the seller’s advert claims and Gamroth’s positive PPI report, I concluded such rust issues were not present.

Posters have referred to “full scale restoration(s)” and “full blown restoration(s)”. My expectation of “started no expense spared restoration” and “full repaint” as stated by the seller, equaled, or even surpassed those in quality and scope.

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 22 2024, 02:25 PM

I wonder if you may have recourse with the seller and/or PPI source?

Disclosure is a big thing these days, as it should be

Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 22 2024, 07:55 PM

The first 5 or 6 years that Six was in the PNW and sat outside, broke down for a while.. no surprise..

Posted by: bkrantz Feb 22 2024, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 21 2024, 05:30 PM)

QUOTE(infraredcalvin @ Feb 21 2024, 03:37 PM)

I'm enjoying your attention to detail and your sharing the dissection of your car, ultimately this will be valuable history/records for the car.

This seems to be therapeutic for you to really get to know your car and making it to your liking/expectations - everyone's expectations will be different. Keep up the progress, fix what can be fixed, keep getting to know your car.

But at some point, the next step will be to address handling and drivability...

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=9463 … Thanks, you nailed some things swirling around my mind. I’ve done much of my own work for years; except paint & body, and transmission & engine rebuilding which I’ve left to professionals. Consider my work a bonding experience with each car.

My current dilemma is I have 4 other sizable projects in various stages of completion on my plate. When I bought the 914/6, I was looking for a turn key car to drive and enjoy. That’s what I thought would result from the steps taken based on the seller’s advert and description, the professional PPI, and associated follow up work; not another project.

With the discovery of a second area of rust yesterday, I’m taking a step back to reconsider options. Not sure I can live happily with a car with such underlying / hidden issues.

As always, input from the group is greatly appreciated

Posted by: jhynesrockmtn Feb 23 2024, 09:51 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 22 2024, 05:08 AM)

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 23 2024, 11:55 AM

I’m going to restate what I’ve said before. I think each of you (buyer and seller) got taken for a ride by supposedly reputable shops that aren’t delivering on their percieved reputations.

The PPI is very short, lacking details of its exterior review and does have what would be considered red flags.

“Before deciding to purchase, I hired Jeff Gamroth to perform a PPI for $1000. Here’s his report:

“Exterior:
Initial walk around shows all body gaps excellent, with excellent paint.
No signs of major rust issues, found 1 10mm diameter bubble under paint below passenger side sail at leading edge of quarter panel.
Trunks both excellent.
Fuel tank and related plumbing excellent.
Undercoat heavily applied.
Top in excellent condition, latches very good.
Leading edge Targa top seal needs re-gluing to windshield frame.
Bumper chrome very good and aluminum trim very good.”

Let me break this down knowing what is now known post-sale.

The PPI notes state no “major” rust. The rust found so far is very typical for a 914 and would not be considered major or structural by most of the 914 community. This may be one of the few exterior PPI statements that I can agree with.

The bubbling of paint is due to something that isn’t right with the paint. Bubbling can be from rust, improper sealing of substrate like primer or body filler, or improper paint thinner for the temperature that flashes too fast trapping solvent below. Bubbling can also be the result of incompatible paint systems. In my opinion, this is a red flag on a car that was recently repainted.

Heavily applied undercoat is always a red flag IMHO.

The top seal improperly glued / fitted - again a sign of lackluster workmanship at the time of paint.

The presence of the original floor pan tar below the seats again should have been noted in the PPI. The fact that the tar was still there given the money spent on bodywork is a red flag. For the money spent, I would have expected the paint shop to have stripped that tar to properly assess and deal with what might have been below. Rust below the OEM floor pan tar is a known 914 problem area. Why this didn’t get done at the time the body was repainted is an unknown.

Frankly, this isn’t much of a PPI for the exterior. No measurements of paint thickness or body filler use / thickness? Unacceptable in my book. I don’t know if photos came with the PPI or if this was only written notes. No photos in my opinion is in an era where we all have a camera in our pocket . At that point buyer is 100% trusting a supposed expert’s verbal opinion sight unseen? As previously stated, for $170, I got a PPI with photo documentation on a vehicle I recently bought. Even so, the PPI was done after I had personally viewed the car in person. Personally, I can’t imagine buying a car at this price point without seeing it in person.

Again this totally discounts that the PPI didn’t note the incorrect front apron / front sheetmetal that isn’t original or correct for a /6. This was incompetent in my opinion.

Lastly - with regard to the fuel system. Again PPI notes were incorrect in hindsight. Stainless steel braided flex lines are not original nor are they the proper replacement such as stainless steel hard lines. Again a red flag. Given that Rufus had to replace the braided lines only confirms how wrong the Rothsport PPI was.

Having said all that, this is still a nice car worth enjoying. Don’t let an incompetent PPI ruin the /6 experience. This is still a car 99.99% of us would love to own.

Most of all I beg those reading this thread to thoroughly and properly verify the shops - reputation isn’t enough in this day and age. This thread should be a warning that there ARE shops out there coasting on their reputation and ripping off their customers. Even though there likely isn’t criminal intent by the shops, they aren’t delivering a decent service at a reasonable price. Build in a conflict of interest with the shop doing both the PPI, and subsequent repair work, and I don’t see how this could have ended well.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 23 2024, 12:22 PM

QUOTE(930cabman @ Feb 22 2024, 04:25 PM)

Posted by: mepstein Feb 23 2024, 01:01 PM

Nobody can know the actual condition of a 914 chassis until it’s disassembled and blasted or dipped. Paint and filler can hide a lot and you can’t take apart a car to do a ppi. On the other hand, a bubble in the paint is caused when the metal underneath starts to corrode. I’ve seen small bubbles that once blasted, have been hiding rusty holes. Paint doesn’t rust so it’s the last surface to show evidence of the problem below.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 23 2024, 01:20 PM

A little sanding with 400 grit, followed by rubbing with acetone soaked Q-tips & paper napkins

Bottom pic after Evaporust gel applied


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Attached image(s)

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 23 2024, 01:28 PM

Interesting.

So I don’t see a second coat of paint under that one. So are the paint runs from Rillos?

I don’t mean to be insensitive by disregarding the rust.

It’s just that I’m amazed by the bill for bodywork, only to get runs like that.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 23 2024, 01:41 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 16 2024, 02:03 PM)

Posted by: 914sgofast2 Feb 23 2024, 02:24 PM

I think the takeaways from this thread are:
1) All 914's are going to have unseen and/or undiscovered rust unless the body shell has been completely disassembled and blasted down to bare metal with written and photo documentation to support it. Anything less at this point and you cannot believe anyone's claim that the 914 has undergone a "complete" restoration;
2) No "restoration" that has not yet been through Step 1 is going to have hidden rust;
3) All 914's have had rear windows which leaked water into the interior. That water puddled under the seats and soaked through the tar sound deadening. The floorpans below the seats are going to be rusted out to a greater or lesser degree by this time in their life.
4) All 914's have doors that leak water, both inside of the door and into the interior of the car. That will water leakage is going to cause rust after 50 years. Door seams and channels are going to have some rust out after 50 years of water leaks.
5) Never buy a car sight unseen.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 23 2024, 02:28 PM

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Feb 23 2024, 12:28 PM)

Posted by: mb911 Feb 23 2024, 04:04 PM

This whole thing has got to be a terrible experience. The only way to do things right are to do them yourself or someone that is truly a friend do it. I would say at the moment there are a few that do top notch work. PMB, and Patrick are among those. Very rarely do you hear of things going sideways there.

Rufus at this point you just have to pass it on to someone to properly fix or you probably need to sell it as my sense is you won’t be happy with it as is.

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 23 2024, 04:54 PM

Posted by: gereed75 Feb 23 2024, 08:27 PM

Really

Posted by: Rufus Feb 23 2024, 09:55 PM

Who’d like buying a car with rust hidden underneath a fresh coat of shiny paint? Especially one represented as a “no expense spared restoration”, and with nothing reported by a professional PPI wrt the suspicious interior floor pan appearance which might be indicative of broader problems, among other things? Not me

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 23 2024, 10:07 PM

Maybe you should change the thread title.

Posted by: 73-914 Feb 23 2024, 11:14 PM

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Feb 23 2024, 05:54 PM)

Posted by: mb911 Feb 24 2024, 05:31 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 23 2024, 07:55 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 06:02 AM

But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not.

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 24 2024, 06:47 AM

If I paid top dollar, I would want a premium car. Being the CSOB I am, I have never bought a "nice car" (my wife can attest to that), so my expectation is always somewhat low. This is unfortunate, especially when you thought you were buying a premium car and was "confirmed" with a third party inspection. I would be upset too

As Superhawk has mentioned, getting lawyers involved would only make things worst, my advice would be to cut your loss and move ahead. This a real /6 and should be enjoyed as such. Complete the repairs as time/funds allow and have fun in the mean time

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 07:03 AM

QUOTE(914sgofast2 @ Feb 23 2024, 01:24 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 07:17 AM

Another fact by his own admission:

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 24 2024, 07:49 AM

Who is this MR? What is your total investment at this point?

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 07:50 AM

MountainRoads

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 08:01 AM

And why would someone switch to selling like this in last November?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-porsche-911t-coupe/

BTW: Super driving video. Worth watching with the volume up

Yeah, many possible reasons. But my experience is when a number of seemingly random signs point to the same conclusion, they’re often right.

Draw your own conclusions

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 08:08 AM

QUOTE(930cabman @ Feb 24 2024, 05:47 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 08:16 AM

Quoting MR:
“ As far as the disclosure form (post #51), it’s hard to read, but the attestation on line 1 is the car never sustained accident damage greater than 25% of it’s value, which is true.”

MR Quote from post #78: “The story I got was either one of them, or one of their wives, did a little off-roading one day at the track and smacked the front end, presumably necessitating a front panel replacement. Rillos noticed it wasn't quite correct for a 1970 while fitting the front valance.”

What was in that form is beside the point. Nothing about the car having an “event” which caused a body panel replacement, plus additional custom fitment adjustments was previously disclosed or reported to me by MR or Gamroth. Even when the subject of accident disclosure came up after the fact with MR.

Draw you own conclusions

Posted by: gereed75 Feb 24 2024, 08:16 AM

No one here has anything to gain by writing a controversial post regarding this situation so I am not sure why I (or anyone else) is even posting at this point, but in my opinion you paid driver quality money for a driver quality car.

Maybe you are disappointed, I get it, but Full resto real sixes have been selling for $100,000 plus for many years now.

Over and out.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 08:29 AM

QUOTE(gereed75 @ Feb 24 2024, 07:16 AM)

Posted by: mate914 Feb 24 2024, 08:45 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 09:29 AM)

QUOTE(gereed75 @ Feb 24 2024, 07:16 AM)

No one here has anything to gain by writing a controversial post regarding this situation so I am not sure why I (or anyone else) is even posting at this point, but in my opinion you paid driver quality money for a driver quality car.

Maybe you are disappointed, I get it, but Full resto real sixes have been selling for $100,000 plus for many years now.

Over and out.

Driver quality = “no expense spared restoration”?

Really??

Look at MR’s advert again. His initial ask was $59,500 for what he described as a “no expense spared restoration”. My problem is the contradiction between what I got and what was advertised by MR and confirmed by Gamroth. Has nothing to do with what other transactions are today or were before; only the willing buyer and seller in this transaction. My $$$ was good; the car … not as represented to me.

And a friendly reminder … if you aren’t interested in my thread, nobody’s forcing you to read it. Bye bye.

Posted by: jhynesrockmtn Feb 24 2024, 09:12 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 06:01 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 09:30 AM

Post #13:

QUOTE(Rufus @ Jan 19 2024, 05:13 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 09:32 AM

Posted by: 73-914 Feb 24 2024, 09:40 AM

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 24 2024, 09:46 AM

IBTL.

Posted by: Jett Feb 24 2024, 09:47 AM

I have read this thread several times and understand that the buyer is upset and that the seller may have overstated the work performed, but as mentioned a fully restored 6 has cost well over $100K for many years.

Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

From a legal perspective the only potential liability is with the folks that did the PPI.

I would focus on fixing the car and it appears that an additional $40k in repairs would still leave the car in a positive position.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 09:58 AM

Posted by: Rufus Feb 24 2024, 10:03 AM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Feb 24 2024, 08:46 AM)

Posted by: Jett Feb 24 2024, 10:20 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 07:58 AM)

QUOTE(Jett @ Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM)

Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this transaction.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

Posted by: mepstein Feb 24 2024, 02:34 PM

No expense spared means different things to different people. I’m not being sarcastic.

Posted by: burton73 Feb 24 2024, 03:30 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Feb 24 2024, 07:46 AM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 24 2024, 03:46 PM

Wow. This thread just keeps getting messier and messier. I'm reluctantly jumping in again to address a couple of points since my last post.

1) It seems to me one of the core issues is Rufus read "no expense spared restoration" and built a mental image of what that meant to him. Was the body shell completely stripped, acid dipped, and ceramic coated? No. I didn't think it needed to be and never claimed or pretended it was. Was every part brand-spanking new? No. I never claimed they were.

The original engine was grenaded early in it's life, the fenders flared, and the car previously tracked, so it was never going to be THAT kind of car. Removing and either refreshing or upgrading all of the mechanicals, fixing the minimal evident rust, sheet metal reinstalled where it had been removed for easier trackside engine access, a full exterior and most interior repaint, brite parts rechromed or replated, multiple parts powder coated, new windshield, fuel tank removed, cleaned, and resealed, new rubber seals, etc, etc. fits my definition of full restoration, so those are the words I used to describe the car. My checkbook certainly thought it was a "no expense spared" exercise.

2) The Gamroth inspection was definitely not comprehensive. They did it on the spot, in my garage (no lift), did a walk-around, used my compressor for the leakdown test because they didn't bring their own, visually inspected the interior, looked around inside trunks, engine bay, etc, went out for a test drive, and declared the car "bitchin". As previously stated, I would've willingly taken the car to any Seattle-area shop for a more detailed inspection if Rufus, or any other prospective buyer, had asked. I would've gladly answered any questions, willingly shared the original PPI, all the restoration pics and expense invoices with any prospective buyer or their PPI provider, gladly referred any interested party to any of the involved shops, BEFORE THE SALE, if asked. I was a bit surprised by the inspection brevity, but I thought the car spoke for itself. And, I wasn't the buyer.

The wooden block attached to the shift linkage plate in one of Rufus' pics was a Gamroth add-on. It certainly wasn't there when I sold the car.

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

4) As communicated privately, I initially directed most of my disappointment at Chris's for sending me home with a car that obviously wasn't running quite right. I've used them for decades and only had a problem with the cost of their service. They are the least convenient of my local shops, but I thought I knew them well and considered Chris a guru. Now I'm wondering if they even took the car for a test drive when they were done. It's also now becoming increasingly apparent that Rillos didn't do as good a job as I thought he had, or trusted him to do, either. I thought I did my due diligence on him, visited regularly to check on progress, and to (mostly) write checks.

5) One of the posts in this thread notes how hard it is to get quality craftsmanship and mentions PMB as an exception. I used their restoration services on the brakes. They came back looking like jewelry. Unfortunately, one of the rear seals leaked when reinstalled, necessitating a return for fix. I suspect they weren't tested before shipment. Another delay and possibly added expense. I would add Weidman Wheels to the short list of remaining craftsmen. The wheels on Rufus' -6 are works of art.

6) I still contend the asking/selling price was VERY reasonable for what I thought Rufus was getting. Rufus is right - 2020 was crazy and uncharted territory times. I was dealing with my own health stuff and evaluating what was important to me. Under less stressful circumstances, I would've probably started in the $70-80K range, which would be typical for this kind of car, and has been for a long time.

7) Lastly, and this is where I'm trying not to be antagonistic, the sale of my 1972 911-T has absolutely nothing to do with this 914-6. I was jonesing for another early air-cooled flat six after a couple of years going without. The PO had done his own restoration and it was his preferred shop who said they no longer did PPIs. I drove down to Oregon to see the car, went for a drive with the owner, and agreed on a price over dinner with him and his wife, that night. Had it shipped up to Seattle and took it to Akers for what I called a PPI (Post Purchase Inspection). Akers assessed it as a nicely restored, solid, 911-T.

Rufus - please stop with the insinuations. I sold it for essentially the same reason I sold the 914-6. The car was stored at the weekend place and I just didn't drive it as often as I thought I would. I've come to the point in my life where I part with something if I'm spending more time and/or money maintaining it than enjoying it. I went with a broker (Avante Garde / 911R) because I wanted an easy button and I was impressed with their BAT ads, not for the reason you're suggesting. I could've sold on BAT myself, but BAT restricts the number of simultaneous auctions and their volume sellers get preferential treatment. I would've had to wait 6 months for a slot. Plus it's a lot of work to do well and I don't have the equipment or marketing acumen to do decent driving videos or glam photo spreads. BAT provides unequaled exposure and I figured a professional would get me the best selling price even accounting for the commission and their fees. That's the reason.

I wake up most nights anyway these days. Now I wake up thinking about this.

Peace out.

- MR

Posted by: Craigers17 Feb 25 2024, 03:55 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 10:58 AM)

Posted by: mb911 Feb 25 2024, 05:03 AM

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 25 2024, 01:55 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

If you're the informed buyer that you claim to be, it would have been pretty easy to find out what the market value of a true 914-6 was back in 2020. All you had to do was look at the 914-6's being sold on BAT, which by your own admission, is a site that you are very familiar with. It's pretty disengenous to claim you had no idea what the market value of a 914-6 was in 2020. You can go look at that data right now and see that nearly every 914-6 sold during 2020 went between $75 to over $100K. You said you paid $56.5 as I recall. So, whether you admit it or not, you know you bought the car at somewhere between 50 to 75% of market value.

Now, according to your own post, it seems that you think you deserve market value on a car that you paid no where near market value on(essential what flippers try to do). Here is your post:

"But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not."

Why do you think you are entitled to market value when you didn't pay market value? I have tried to keep an open mind on this thread, but at a certain point it is what it is. The absolute truth is that the car has more rust than you thought. You have already proven that, regardless of the history of the car. That said, you keep sanding down more of the car like a young child picking scabs off a wound until it bleeds even more, and then providing more "evidence" of your already proven truth. That doesn't mean the prior owner knew any of this. It just shows that the PPI probably wasn't the greatest. Even then, it would be hard to definitively tell that the car had rust issues under the paint. Moreover, the car has been in your possession for over 3 years now... nobody knows what has happened to the car in those 3 years(If I am playing lawyer).

My point is this: You seem to keep posting on this thread as if it's some type of legal document which will vindicate you in some way???? or perhaps help you in future litigation??? The thread is nothing more than a bunch of people like you and me giving personal opinions of the whole messy situation. At the end of the day, you have 2 real options: SELL THE CAR or FIX THE CAR. At this point, the rest is just pissin' in the wind.

Posted by: mate914 Feb 25 2024, 08:18 AM

QUOTE(mb911 @ Feb 25 2024, 06:03 AM)

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 25 2024, 01:55 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

If you're the informed buyer that you claim to be, it would have been pretty easy to find out what the market value of a true 914-6 was back in 2020. All you had to do was look at the 914-6's being sold on BAT, which by your own admission, is a site that you are very familiar with. It's pretty disengenous to claim you had no idea what the market value of a 914-6 was in 2020. You can go look at that data right now and see that nearly every 914-6 sold during 2020 went between $75 to over $100K. You said you paid $56.5 as I recall. So, whether you admit it or not, you know you bought the car at somewhere between 50 to 75% of market value.

Now, according to your own post, it seems that you think you deserve market value on a car that you paid no where near market value on(essential what flippers try to do). Here is your post:

"But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not."

Why do you think you are entitled to market value when you didn't pay market value? I have tried to keep an open mind on this thread, but at a certain point it is what it is. The absolute truth is that the car has more rust than you thought. You have already proven that, regardless of the history of the car. That said, you keep sanding down more of the car like a young child picking scabs off a wound until it bleeds even more, and then providing more "evidence" of your already proven truth. That doesn't mean the prior owner knew any of this. It just shows that the PPI probably wasn't the greatest. Even then, it would be hard to definitively tell that the car had rust issues under the paint. Moreover, the car has been in your possession for over 3 years now... nobody knows what has happened to the car in those 3 years(If I am playing lawyer).

My point is this: You seem to keep posting on this thread as if it's some type of legal document which will vindicate you in some way???? or perhaps help you in future litigation??? The thread is nothing more than a bunch of people like you and me giving personal opinions of the whole messy situation. At the end of the day, you have 2 real options: SELL THE CAR or FIX THE CAR. At this point, the rest is just pissin' in the wind.

1000%

Posted by: mate914 Feb 25 2024, 08:19 AM

Life is not fair. Just in case you forgot.

Posted by: jhynesrockmtn Feb 25 2024, 08:36 AM

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 25 2024, 12:39 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840 : I'm genuinely sorry you got a car that didn't live up to your expectations.  I'm now learning it didn't live up to my expectations, either.  I empathize with the number of years you've invested.  I did  7+ years before I got to drive the car again. 

I posted (in 2024) that I fully expected you to find solid pans under the deteriorated tar because that's what I believed you'd find, because Rillos assured me they were fine.  It's a complete surprise to learn there are any issues at all with the firewall.  You're going to have to believe me that I would've told Rillos to permanently fix (i.e. weld) any rust holes, if he'd brought them to my attention.  

I don't go around screwing people, so I don't instinctively watch out for other people trying to screw me.  I have to occasionally remind myself that approach to life is not without risk, because I've been burned a few times.  In this case, we both got screwed by a couple of the involved shops.  

You got the car at a fire-sale price due my personal circumstances and the unique times we were in. I've said privately that you could probably part the poor thing out and get almost all of your purchase price money back. There are some really nice bits on that car.



- MR

Posted by: 73-914 Feb 25 2024, 01:08 PM

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 20 2024, 02:01 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 04:01 PM

Of course these are all no big deal too, right guys?!?

Rust under the Wurth undercoating?

What do the pictures insinuate, MR?


Attached image(s)

Posted by: rjames Feb 25 2024, 04:05 PM

In the end I wouldn’t trust someone else to do a PPI without me looking at it in person, too.
I had a very reputable Porsche shop do a PPI on mine (before I knew what to look for myself) and they didn’t catch that part of the floor pan needed to be replaced along with small sections of the longs around the jack posts.
Relying on others to care as much as you do is unrealistic.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 04:25 PM

QUOTE(73-914 @ Feb 25 2024, 12:08 PM)

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 20 2024, 02:01 PM)

Buying from pictures is like operating a worm drive electric saw while wearing a blindfold.

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 25 2024, 05:11 PM

I have no idea what your tech may or may not have told you. Or what you might have heard. I choose not to speculate on that.

Perhaps MR had no idea about the work performed or not performed.

What do you want to happen from this point forward?

What is the ‘plan’?

I have no dog in this hunt. I can sympathize with your predicament.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 05:19 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 03:25 PM)

QUOTE(73-914 @ Feb 25 2024, 12:08 PM)

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Jan 20 2024, 02:01 PM)

Buying from pictures is like operating a worm drive electric saw while wearing a blindfold.

And kinda like believing everything your local body man / painter says without checking yourself, huh? After all, he reassured you, right?

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Feb 25 2024, 04:11 PM)

Posted by: technicalninja Feb 25 2024, 05:59 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 05:19 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 06:04 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Feb 25 2024, 04:59 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 05:19 PM)

The ‘plan’ … That’ll be handled offline privately

Should have done this from the start!

Posted by: mepstein Feb 25 2024, 06:04 PM

Seems like a lot of self imposed pain for a transaction that’s done and dusted.

Posted by: technicalninja Feb 25 2024, 06:15 PM

And the car's still decent...

By not telling the whole story Rufus has destroyed any sympathy I had for him.

The failures here were shop related. The PPI was a serious failure IMO. 1K and they didn't find stuff I would have located in the first 10 minutes.

It's easy, run driver seat forward and see if the tar is bubbled/loose.

Looks like MR lost his shirt on this.

Looks like Rufus has a nice real 6 to work with.

I've been an "expert witness" on a couple of lawsuits.

The only people that win are the Lawyers (on BOTH sides)!

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 06:21 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

Posted by: technicalninja Feb 25 2024, 06:46 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:21 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 07:05 PM

“If I read the whole post correctly MR LOST more money selling this car to Rufus than Rufus paid for it.”

Not relevant. Like I said you could not have given me the car for free if I knew about the issues. I.was.NOT.interested.in.another.project! At any price!

And re the PPI and what should have been done. I agree

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 07:20 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Feb 25 2024, 05:46 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:21 PM)

Without the info on the car’s issues, I was deprived of making the decision myself. My ability to to that was stolen from me.

By the folks you paid to do the PPI.

Did you ask them to especially look for rust?

At 1K I'd have asked them to remove the rockers as well as the carpet for inspection.

I would have DEMANDED pictures.

I'm guessing you didn't ask...



Paint thickness measurements should have been done at multiple spots.

Super red flag for me would be the leak down tests (COLD!) that all showed less than 10%. Those are textbook perfect numbers for a HOT engine.
No car on this forum has COLD numbers that tight!
They shouldn't...

Second red flag, no compressor brought by the PPI tech.

Third flag, car didn't go up on a lift. It has to for a proper PPI IMO. I'd want a bunch of pics. Might be easier to run a 3-5 min video showing EVERYTHING underneath.
A 1K PPI should have automatically included this stuff, 100+ pics, maybe a couple of quick vids.


I'm seeing multiple faults with the folks Rufus hired and then spent a shitload of money with directly after purchase.

This thread seems to put the blame on MR. I haven't picked up on any subterfuge from him. Would have been far easier for him to just "not post".

Someone that was trying to hide stuff would not respond.

If I read the whole post correctly MR LOST more money selling this car to Rufus than Rufus paid for it.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 07:29 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Feb 25 2024, 05:04 PM)

Posted by: mate914 Feb 25 2024, 07:32 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 08:20 PM)

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Feb 25 2024, 05:46 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:21 PM)

Without the info on the car’s issues, I was deprived of making the decision myself. My ability to to that was stolen from me.

By the folks you paid to do the PPI.

Did you ask them to especially look for rust?

At 1K I'd have asked them to remove the rockers as well as the carpet for inspection.

I would have DEMANDED pictures.

I'm guessing you didn't ask...



Paint thickness measurements should have been done at multiple spots.

Super red flag for me would be the leak down tests (COLD!) that all showed less than 10%. Those are textbook perfect numbers for a HOT engine.
No car on this forum has COLD numbers that tight!
They shouldn't...

Second red flag, no compressor brought by the PPI tech.

Third flag, car didn't go up on a lift. It has to for a proper PPI IMO. I'd want a bunch of pics. Might be easier to run a 3-5 min video showing EVERYTHING underneath.
A 1K PPI should have automatically included this stuff, 100+ pics, maybe a couple of quick vids.


I'm seeing multiple faults with the folks Rufus hired and then spent a shitload of money with directly after purchase.

This thread seems to put the blame on MR. I haven't picked up on any subterfuge from him. Would have been far easier for him to just "not post".

Someone that was trying to hide stuff would not respond.

If I read the whole post correctly MR LOST more money selling this car to Rufus than Rufus paid for it.

Of those who do restoration paint and body work for paying clients, how many would not proceed to paint / apply Wurth undercoating before / without either repairing, or at least telling your client about rust on body panels??

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 07:42 PM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 25 2024, 06:32 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 08:20 PM)

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Feb 25 2024, 05:46 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:21 PM)

Without the info on the car’s issues, I was deprived of making the decision myself. My ability to to that was stolen from me.

By the folks you paid to do the PPI.

Did you ask them to especially look for rust?

At 1K I'd have asked them to remove the rockers as well as the carpet for inspection.

I would have DEMANDED pictures.

I'm guessing you didn't ask...

Thanks for your kind helpful contribution, Matt


Paint thickness measurements should have been done at multiple spots.

Super red flag for me would be the leak down tests (COLD!) that all showed less than 10%. Those are textbook perfect numbers for a HOT engine.
No car on this forum has COLD numbers that tight!
They shouldn't...

Second red flag, no compressor brought by the PPI tech.

Third flag, car didn't go up on a lift. It has to for a proper PPI IMO. I'd want a bunch of pics. Might be easier to run a 3-5 min video showing EVERYTHING underneath.
A 1K PPI should have automatically included this stuff, 100+ pics, maybe a couple of quick vids.


I'm seeing multiple faults with the folks Rufus hired and then spent a shitload of money with directly after purchase.

This thread seems to put the blame on MR. I haven't picked up on any subterfuge from him. Would have been far easier for him to just "not post".

Someone that was trying to hide stuff would not respond.

If I read the whole post correctly MR LOST more money selling this car to Rufus than Rufus paid for it.

Of those who do restoration paint and body work for paying clients, how many would not proceed to paint / apply Wurth undercoating before / without either repairing, or at least telling your client about rust on body panels??

I would never do work for you. You are a ticking timebomb. You are the ass in asshole. Please post a picture so we can all avoid you at car shows. All you do is sow division with zero I repeat ZERO respect for anybody but your self. Sit down and shut up. Now go take your blood pressure pill.
Matt

Posted by: 73-914 Feb 25 2024, 08:15 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Feb 25 2024, 06:59 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 05:19 PM)

The ‘plan’ … That’ll be handled offline privately

Should have done this from the start!

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 08:19 PM

QUOTE(jhynesrockmtn @ Feb 25 2024, 07:36 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 08:53 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 09:27 PM

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 25 2024, 02:55 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 24 2024, 10:58 AM)

QUOTE

name='Jett' post='3130435' date='Feb 24 2024, 08:47 AM']
Not sure what one would expect when paying nearly 50% less than what a restored 6 sells for, regardless of the sellers claims.

Again I strongly disagree with drawing an equivalence between this transaction and others. I paid 96.6% of the seller’s ask. The fact the ask didn’t align with other transactions is irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone remember the spring of 2020? Global shutdown, markets in turmoil, unknown health risks, oil trading below $0 / barrel?

I don’t think anyone knew what the market price of a 100 pt 914/6 was at the time.

My gripe is the contradiction between how it was represented and confirmed by PPI vs its condition

If you're the informed buyer that you claim to be, it would have been pretty easy to find out what the market value of a true 914-6 was back in 2020. All you had to do was look at the 914-6's being sold on BAT, which by your own admission, is a site that you are very familiar with. It's pretty disengenous to claim you had no idea what the market value of a 914-6 was in 2020. You can go look at that data right now and see that nearly every 914-6 sold during 2020 went between $75 to over $100K. You said you paid $56.5 as I recall. So, whether you admit it or not, you know you bought the car at somewhere between 50 to 75% of market value.

Now, according to your own post, it seems that you think you deserve market value on a car that you paid no where near market value on(essential what flippers try to do). Here is your post:

"But my purchase price, $56,500 was almost 4 years ago. According to Hagerty, the value of the same car today is $80,000.

The question is whether anyone would be happy paying current market price while understanding a car did not have these issues, and later find rust under fresh paint?

What MR spent on the car before selling, is irrelevant to whether I got a decent deal or not."

Why do you think you are entitled to market value when you didn't pay market value? I have tried to keep an open mind on this thread, but at a certain point it is what it is. The absolute truth is that the car has more rust than you thought. You have already proven that, regardless of the history of the car. That said, you keep sanding down more of the car like a young child picking scabs off a wound until it bleeds even more, and then providing more "evidence" of your already proven truth. That doesn't mean the prior owner knew any of this. It just shows that the PPI probably wasn't the greatest. Even then, it would be hard to definitively tell that the car had rust issues under the paint. Moreover, the car has been in your possession for over 3 years now... nobody knows what has happened to the car in those 3 years(If I am playing lawyer).

My point is this: You seem to keep posting on this thread as if it's some type of legal document which will vindicate you in some way???? or perhaps help you in future litigation??? The thread is nothing more than a bunch of people like you and me giving personal opinions of the whole messy situation. At the end of the day, you have 2 real options: SELL THE CAR or FIX THE CAR. At this point, the rest is just pissin' in the wind.

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 25 2024, 09:28 PM

Would a wise man, seeing that he was in a hole, go to work and blindly dig deeper?

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 09:31 PM

Knowing what I know, and what my goals are, I will keep “digging” … politely, respectfully, honestly posting facts as I find them

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 25 2024, 09:34 PM

The question was about what a wise man would do.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 09:42 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 6 2024, 02:53 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 09:50 PM

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Feb 25 2024, 08:34 PM)

Posted by: sixaddict Feb 25 2024, 10:28 PM

I really feel ADmin should end this ………PLEASE!
This is not what this site is about and lister will obviously not stop unless someone takes control.

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 25 2024, 10:40 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 10:55 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 09:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

- MR

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 25 2024, 11:23 PM

What did the longs and jack posts look like when you pulled the rocker covers?

Posted by: Rufus Feb 25 2024, 11:33 PM

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Feb 25 2024, 10:23 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 03:44 AM

On the subject of 2020 914/6 market values.

The advert for my mine was placed on 5/31/20 for $59,500. Its deviations from stock are mostly documented here; non matching #’s, flared / rolled fenders, incorrect front cross panel, incorrect later rear bumper & valance which I don’t mind; just not a plus.

I find only two true 914/6’s on BaT within +/-3 months; (w/in the 3/1/2020 - 9/1/2020 range):

1.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-porsche-914-6-29/
3/20/2020, 1970, Irish Green, #’s matching, CoA, records back to 1973, Mahle gas burners, correct & rare porthole rear valance, MY correct front cross panel, but did not meet reserve @ $73,000.

Market refused to pay more than $73,000 on 3/20/2020.

2.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-porsche-914-6-10/
7/8/20, rare 1971 MY, rare gold metallic, possible but unconfirmed matching #’s, a few rare options, paint & trim work needed, MY correct front cross panel, sold for $76,000


Widening out to +/-6 months adds two more:

3.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-porsche-914-6-35/
9/8/2020, 1970 2.7L twin plug 315 hp highly modded wide body race car, lots of race goodies, separate #’s matching engine, CoA, maybe MY correct front cross panel, sold for $92,000.

4.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-porsche-914-6-28/
9/22/2020, 1970 993 3.6L, GT wide body with many desirable mods, separate #’s matching engine, CoA, recent Patrick service, featured in June 2000 Excellence, MY correct front cross panel, sold for $100,000.

If I were selling all 4 at the same time, I know how I’d rank them in price; how ‘bout you?

Posted by: Craigers17 Feb 26 2024, 05:00 AM

So this thread is obviously very long, but I think you said you RECEIVED the car back in November of 2020. One would expect that, at that time, you would have completed a comprehensive inspection of the vehicle yourself(especially given the standard you are holding everyone else to), having spent 50K + on the vehicle and more additional cash on repairs.

Given that assumption, why didn't this thread come up nearly three and a half years ago? Was the rust hidden so that you didn't notice it? What made you suspicious of there being rust issues? Was it paint bubbling? Was it possible that the paint just started bubbling recently and that clued you in to the rust issues? If YOU didn't notice the rust issues for over three years, how can you hold the PO or the gentleman that did the PPI to a higher standard than yourself? If the rust issues didn't reveal themselves until recently, it would be very difficult to understand how you could blame anyone but the shop that did the paint job, and since you didn't commission that paint job, I highly doubt you'd have any recourse against that vendor. I ASSUME most bodyshops don't warranty anything for more than a year or two.

Posted by: mate914 Feb 26 2024, 05:31 AM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 05:38 AM

QUOTE(Craigers17 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:00 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 05:51 AM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Posted by: mate914 Feb 26 2024, 06:07 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Good morning, Matt

BTW: my name’s Bob; not bot

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 06:09 AM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:07 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Good morning, Matt

BTW: my name’s Bob; not bot

Hi Bot. Another day of blaming everyone else.

Posted by: mate914 Feb 26 2024, 06:35 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:07 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Good morning, Matt

BTW: my name’s Bob; not bot

Hi Bot. Another day of blaming everyone else.

Glad to see you in such a cheery mood today, Matt

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 06:53 AM

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:35 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:07 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Good morning, Matt

BTW: my name’s Bob; not bot

Hi Bot. Another day of blaming everyone else.

Glad to see you in such a cheery mood today, Matt

Bob,
Do you need help removing your rockers still? That will tell you a lot about your 914-6. I'm surprised you didn't do that when you got the car....
Matt

Posted by: KELTY360 Feb 26 2024, 07:19 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 04:53 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:35 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:07 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Good morning, Matt

BTW: my name’s Bob; not bot

Hi Bot. Another day of blaming everyone else.

Glad to see you in such a cheery mood today, Matt

Bob,
Do you need help removing your rockers still? That will tell you a lot about your 914-6. I'm surprised you didn't do that when you got the car....
Matt

Yep, I haven’t tried again after trying yesterday. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 07:39 AM

QUOTE(KELTY360 @ Feb 26 2024, 06:19 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 04:53 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:35 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 07:09 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 05:07 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE(mate914 @ Feb 26 2024, 04:31 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 25 2024, 11:40 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 06:53 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 24 2024, 02:46 PM)

3) I need to correct one detail that keeps coming up. The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car. Chris noted it in my initial PPI. Rillos noticed it, sourced a used donor panel, and welded it in prior to painting. Gamroth apparently failed to note it had been replaced.

“The front latch panel was correct when Gamroth inspected the car.”

MR, is this your belief?

Yes - that is my belief. CORRECT. Not ORIGINAL. I was told it wasn't correct during the bodywork and Rillos replaced it with a donor panel. If it isn't the correct panel for a 1970, then that's another dropped ball by Rillos.

Ironically, I considered a nice new generously applied coat of Wurth to be a good thing. Yes, I know that can be used to hide things, but I had no reason to suspect that was the case.

I have no idea what could possibly NOT be public information at this point.

I'm done posting to this thread. I'd be willing to engage in constructive dialogue if I thought it would help or do any good, but I've concluded there's no point. There's nothing I can do or say that'll change anything.

- MR

Its almost like we are talking to a bot. It never receives info and uses it. The bot just keeps sowing hate and division. Then the bot goes on with more hate. I call bot... Not a Man.
Matt

Good morning, Matt

BTW: my name’s Bob; not bot

Hi Bot. Another day of blaming everyone else.

Glad to see you in such a cheery mood today, Matt

Bob,
Do you need help removing your rockers still? That will tell you a lot about your 914-6. I'm surprised you didn't do that when you got the car....
Matt

Yep, I haven’t tried again after trying yesterday. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated

Use the search.
Inspecting the longs is the starting point for evaluating a 914 purchase. There are lots of threads.

Posted by: rhodyguy Feb 26 2024, 09:03 AM

I find 16 quotes/reposts excessive.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 09:54 AM

Couldn’t find any soft spots in probing with an awl on outside or bottom surface.

Pics of left long outer face; before & after Milwaukee M12 wire brush in different spots. Looks to me the reddish color isn’t rust; and is Tangerine paint …

FWIW: valance panel stuck on with tar along top. Very little dirt or debris found


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 10:00 AM

Bottom left long surface …

Curious about white plastic(?) like material along a portion of long. It’s kinda tough and resists scraping, prying, etc.. Look normal? Thoughts?


Attached image(s)

Posted by: mepstein Feb 26 2024, 10:16 AM

Fiberglass patches?

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 10:20 AM

Ooooof!

And the part # in PET?

Posted by: burton73 Feb 26 2024, 10:35 AM

That is Wurth put on from the factory. Same on my 6.

It better to view the right side under rocker because it catches water and gets trapped at jack post on a number of cars.

Bob B

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 10:44 AM

Will do. Not sure if today or tomorrow

Bob B., think there’s any possibility the Wurth is new; that’s what MR’s advert said?

Posted by: 930cabman Feb 26 2024, 10:57 AM

I'm seeing rust, but perhaps not catastrophic

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 11:05 AM

Agreed 930cabman. Thinkin I might attack the white layer next. Concerned it may not be good news underneath

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 26 2024, 11:53 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 02:25 PM)

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 26 2024, 12:05 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 08:44 AM)

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Feb 26 2024, 12:05 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 12:53 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 02:25 PM)

And kinda like believing everything your local body man / painter says without checking yourself, huh? After all, he reassured you, right?

Yes, I know, I said I was done posting to this thread. The following occurred to me last night so I'm adding now.

Yes Rufus, that was my mistake. I trusted Rillos to identify and properly fix what needed to be fixed. I trusted him to say "This should be taken care of." I didn't think I needed to observe every move or stand there and watch every step or part that was installed. I hired pros because they were supposed to be the experts, not me. You missed the part where I said I regularly checked on progress. By regularly, I meant at least once a month, and often weekly.

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 12:08 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 12:49 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=179 : Thanks for sharing your insight. I’m looking at the chassis parts page on AA, but don’t see the white coating called out. Any idea why? Was it just not a serviceable part? … or?

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 26 2024, 12:59 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 10:49 AM)

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 26 2024, 01:48 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 10:08 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR


Quoting MR post #78:
It was indeed a “no expense spared” (relatively, and within reason) body restoration ………….
…………. It was one of the few cost-control concessions“

I easily get SO confused

Posted by: mepstein Feb 26 2024, 03:08 PM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 02:48 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 10:08 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR


Quoting MR post #78:
It was indeed a “no expense spared” (relatively, and within reason) body restoration ………….
…………. It was one of the few cost-control concessions“

I easily get SO confused

Do I really need to spell this out? I was never going to strip the car down to naked tub and acid dip. Plus, I didn't think it needed it.

Posted by: mrholland2 Feb 26 2024, 03:52 PM

QUOTE(mepstein @ Feb 26 2024, 01:08 PM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 02:48 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 26 2024, 10:08 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR


Quoting MR post #78:
It was indeed a “no expense spared” (relatively, and within reason) body restoration ………….
…………. It was one of the few cost-control concessions“

I easily get SO confused

Do I really need to spell this out? I was never going to strip the car down to naked tub and acid dip. Plus, I didn't think it needed it.

Not worth it for a couple spots on the pan and firewall. You patch them up, coat, paint and move on. If you want a rust free Porsche, you go to the dealer and buy a Boxster.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 08:16 PM

I’m closing out this segment of the story.

Attached pics show two chips containing the Porsche white PVC undercoating (most visible in edge views) removed from the bottom left long surface. There’s also a curled up section that was shaved off by razor blade. And finally some minute material shavings on the razor blade. I see no evidence of reinforcing fibers which leads to my conclusion.

This doesn’t point to the possibility of something intentionally applied for nefarious reasons. But the longs will be stripped bare to confirm all is well. The PVC coating is damaged, and may not provide protection different than a modern epoxy anyway.

On to the next step …


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Feb 26 2024, 08:22 PM

Beginning the next chapter of my story with this …

On Thursday, 2/15 I reached out to Jeff Gamroth providing a link to this thread with the suggestion he follow along. No response.

This morning I emailed him again. I’ll report if / when he responds.

Posted by: Rufus Feb 27 2024, 05:01 AM

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 02:25 PM)

And kinda like believing everything your local body man / painter says without checking yourself, huh? After all, he reassured you, right?

Yes, I know, I said I was done posting to this thread. The following occurred to me last night so I'm adding now.

Yes Rufus, that was my mistake. I trusted Rillos to identify and properly fix what needed to be fixed. I trusted him to say "This should be taken care of." I didn't think I needed to observe every move or stand there and watch every step or part that was installed. I hired pros because they were supposed to be the experts, not me. You missed the part where I said I regularly checked on progress. By regularly, I meant at least once a month, and often weekly.

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR

Posted by: mate914 Feb 27 2024, 06:10 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 27 2024, 06:01 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 02:25 PM)

And kinda like believing everything your local body man / painter says without checking yourself, huh? After all, he reassured you, right?

Yes, I know, I said I was done posting to this thread. The following occurred to me last night so I'm adding now.

Yes Rufus, that was my mistake. I trusted Rillos to identify and properly fix what needed to be fixed. I trusted him to say "This should be taken care of." I didn't think I needed to observe every move or stand there and watch every step or part that was installed. I hired pros because they were supposed to be the experts, not me. You missed the part where I said I regularly checked on progress. By regularly, I meant at least once a month, and often weekly.

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR

FINALLY! after 3 weeks. If MR had not made HIS mistake in 2014, the rust would have been addressed properly then and would not have existed in 2020 or today, and … I would never have been motivated to start this thread and endure the ruthless bashing here. With this admission, Part 1 of my story enters a new phase.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Feb 27 2024, 07:46 AM

Porche’s fault.

If they had built the cars out of Galvaneal steel and had e-coated them . . . Wait that technology wasn’t in use back in the 70s. Well then, they should have invented it, and pioneered its use on 914’s.

Rufus, there are are a bunch of good folks here that simply want to help you move forward in a productive way. Likewise, we try to support those within the small 914 community as best we can, despite the distance and differences between us.

If you’re not interested in that happening, that would be a shame, and will be of your own doing.

Posted by: jhynesrockmtn Feb 27 2024, 07:52 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 27 2024, 03:01 AM)

QUOTE(mountainroads @ Feb 26 2024, 10:53 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Feb 25 2024, 02:25 PM)

And kinda like believing everything your local body man / painter says without checking yourself, huh? After all, he reassured you, right?

Yes, I know, I said I was done posting to this thread. The following occurred to me last night so I'm adding now.

Yes Rufus, that was my mistake. I trusted Rillos to identify and properly fix what needed to be fixed. I trusted him to say "This should be taken care of." I didn't think I needed to observe every move or stand there and watch every step or part that was installed. I hired pros because they were supposed to be the experts, not me. You missed the part where I said I regularly checked on progress. By regularly, I meant at least once a month, and often weekly.

Not once did I tell any shop not to do something because it was too expensive or I didn't want to pay for it.

- MR

FINALLY! after 3 weeks. If MR had not made HIS mistake in 2014, the rust would have been addressed properly then and would not have existed in 2020 or today, and … I would never have been motivated to start this thread and endure the ruthless bashing here. With this admission, Part 1 of my story enters a new phase.

Posted by: mepstein Feb 27 2024, 07:54 AM

The 914 community is really fantastic and has done for me, more than I could ever give back - through I’d like to try my best.
Yea, if all this is about is building some sort of case against the former owner, then I’m out. The responses from Rufus are starting to sound pretty creepy.

Posted by: technicalninja Feb 27 2024, 09:08 AM

Don't feed the troll...

The responses are enraging him, and he may have "old people" disease.



My dad (84) has lost his "nice" filters in the last few years.

He says stuff he wouldn't have said in the past. Sometimes it's embarrassing to take him out in public.


I see a bit of him in Rufus's responses...

We've really tried to help but it appears he was looking for ANYHING to hang MR with.

Trying to litigate on something that happened 10 years ago is the definition of "decreased mental capacity" in my book.

He pegged my "Squirrel-O-Meter" out with his last post and my suggestion now is to no-longer post in this thread.

It will be interesting to see how long Rufus continues to post after others stop posting.

Along with Mepstein, I'm out!
I'll not post again in ANY of Rufus's threads.

Posted by: BillJ Feb 27 2024, 01:47 PM

This has been amusing but havent posted because this attempt to garner support for his spin and opinion was inevitable and misleading from the outset. The subtitle said it all right from the word go. So many demeaning and loaded statements start with a disclaimer saying precisely what will be said. "I'm not racist but...." or "Not trying to belittle the guy but..." etc etc.

Sorry you dont have the car you thought you bought. Go do whatever action you think you should. I think we should lock this thing. No more can come of it.

No animosity meant btw.

Posted by: mountainroads Feb 27 2024, 01:53 PM

So far I've refrained from saying anything that could be remotely perceived as victim blaming, but I've finally had enough.

I get that Rufus didn't want an additional project. I get that he's unhappy he didn't get what he thought he was getting. I'm not even going to fault him for not seeing the car in person, although not doing so is always risky. IDK, but I doubt that would've made a difference to his purchase decision. I'm even going to agree to a certain extent with his contention that whether he paid $50K or $150K, he didn't get what he expected. Who of us hasn't had that experience?

By his own admission, he always wanted a genuine -6. He saw an ad for a nicely restored genuine 6 at what any reasonable 914 afficienado would know was a bargain price, for what he could or wanted to pay, and so saw his opportunity. He had a $10K credit with Rothsport for an aborted conversion project and saw a solution.

The asking price wasn't low because I knew it was a bad car. The price was low because I'd accomplished my restoration project objective, I didn't drive the car as much as I thought I would, the uncertainty around COVID times, and I wanted to move on. I also knew that 50+ year old cars are somewhat fragile and temperamental by nature, no matter how well (or not) originally made. Although I knew the car wasn't perfect, I never suspected any rust hadn't been properly addressed.

I think Rufus' own karma bit him a bit. We had some back and forth PMs, emails, and phone calls. As far as I remember, most of his focus was on price and closing the deal, subject to PPI. He never asked for any restoration pictures or shop invoices. He never asked me if the car had ever been in an accident. He never asked about rust repair, a known possible problem with ANY pre-galvanized car, and some more than others. He never asked if he could talk to the previous owner or any of the shops who worked on the car. Nor did his PPI provider. I would've willingly provided all of that information to him or Rothsport if they'd acted interested. I probably volunteered that AFAIK I was the fourth owner, but I couldn't even swear to that. I think he wanted to seal the deal as fast as possible before someone else snapped it up. And, he trusted the superficial Rothsport PPI. He would never admit it, but I think he got greedy and that blinded him to some of the pitfalls with that approach. Rufus still might've ended up with a car with undiscovered rust, but at least then he could claim he did everything possible to avoid it.

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=5840 : It wasn't my job to shepherd you through the used car purchase process or how to spend your money. To some extent that was Rothsport's job. You're so thoroughly convinced I knowingly sold you a car with unresolved rust issues that you can't see any other possible explanation. Man up and admit these facts, even if just to yourself, since you say you're all about facts.

Posted by: Eric_Ciampa Feb 27 2024, 08:53 PM

If only this was a progress and restoration thread and not whatever Rufus seems intent on making it. I want to see more of this beautiful car! Rufus, you bought this car for $56K, I would offer you that right now knowing all the issues you found.

Note to self MR is a stand up guy and I would buy from him anytime.

Posted by: Rufus Mar 5 2024, 03:27 PM

More coming soon …


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 5 2024, 03:28 PM

After emailing Jeff Gamroth on 2/15 and 2/25, still no response. Just emailed again …

Posted by: 930cabman Mar 5 2024, 04:11 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 5 2024, 04:27 PM)

More coming soon …

Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 5 2024, 06:58 PM

Be Glad youre not this poor guy....
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.3578217638983866&type=3

Posted by: mate914 Mar 5 2024, 07:31 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 5 2024, 04:28 PM)

Posted by: 914sgofast2 Mar 5 2024, 07:50 PM

How long is the forum administrator going to allow this thread to keep going?

Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 5 2024, 08:27 PM

It had slipped to mid p2. And a bump….damn. My Crocus are blooming.

Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 5 2024, 09:02 PM

double post

Posted by: Rufus Mar 5 2024, 09:05 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 5 2024, 09:08 PM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 5 2024, 09:08 PM

More, maybe much more, to come …

Posted by: bkrantz Mar 5 2024, 09:09 PM

QUOTE(930cabman @ Mar 5 2024, 03:11 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 5 2024, 04:27 PM)

More coming soon …

Any sort of applied undercoating ???

This is almost ALWAYS (at least 99%) a sign of some sort of coverup. Should be a major red flag for a problem.

Posted by: mb911 Mar 6 2024, 09:34 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 5 2024, 07:05 PM)

Posted by: mrholland2 Mar 6 2024, 09:37 AM

Posted by: 930cabman Mar 6 2024, 10:14 AM

QUOTE(sixnotfour @ Mar 5 2024, 07:58 PM)

Posted by: 73-914 Mar 6 2024, 10:26 AM

QUOTE(mrholland2 @ Mar 6 2024, 10:37 AM)

Posted by: 87m491 Mar 6 2024, 10:27 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 5 2024, 01:28 PM)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 6 2024, 10:42 AM

QUOTE(mb911 @ Mar 6 2024, 08:34 AM)

Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 6 2024, 12:39 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 6 2024, 12:42 PM)

QUOTE(mb911 @ Mar 6 2024, 08:34 AM)

That’s all factory there . Barking up the wrong tree on that

Good to know, thanks Ben.

Anyone have pics of this on other 914’s. Its purpose?

Posted by: Rufus Mar 6 2024, 01:20 PM

Thanks Superhawk

Posted by: DRPHIL914 Mar 6 2024, 01:30 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 6 2024, 11:42 AM)

QUOTE(mb911 @ Mar 6 2024, 08:34 AM)

That’s all factory there . Barking up the wrong tree on that

Good to know, thanks Ben.

Anyone have pics of this on other 914’s. Its purpose?

Posted by: Rufus Mar 6 2024, 01:47 PM

Thanks DRPHIL914. Very helpful info

Posted by: windforfun Mar 6 2024, 06:43 PM

QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Mar 6 2024, 11:30 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 6 2024, 11:42 AM)

QUOTE(mb911 @ Mar 6 2024, 08:34 AM)

That’s all factory there . Barking up the wrong tree on that

Good to know, thanks Ben.

Anyone have pics of this on other 914’s. Its purpose?

the seam sealer on those areas can be thick and was placed on all the seams like the round holes like in the floor pan, and as ben said then it looks like orignal seam sealer and then the undercoating over the top of it. sometimes that would develop a gap or separation as it aged and then moisture made its way behind it and you find surface rust under or along it, i did on my floor in a couple spots. My hell hole had big gobs of it along the fire wall , at first i thought it was a bad repaor or caulk by someone but as i cleaned up the area a piece broke loose and i discovered this was original to car but had some layers of repaint and caked on under coating that was sprayed on by dealer! so even though my floor was bad in some spots from leaking windows letting water get in and rust out the pan uder driver seat, my hell hole was actually rust free!. This goes back af few years ago to when i was cleaning it up to get the floors repaired and have the car prepped for paint.
Like me when i really dug in and looked i found some stuff, that would not be found with superficial inspection. you will find more, no fault of anyone, just bite the bullet and get it done,

Phil

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 12:34 AM

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 12:39 AM

fresh orange paint.


Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 12:49 AM

Yep, buyer beware


Attached thumbnail(s)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 05:13 AM

Now for sale here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=369454&st=0#entry3132521

Posted by: 87m491 Mar 7 2024, 08:41 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 03:13 AM)

Posted by: mb911 Mar 7 2024, 09:59 AM

Ok just a suggestion here. If you’re selling it for the 98k I would suggest you at the very least make it drivable. Put the fuel system back in and make it turn key.

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 10:04 AM

As is … NOT negotiable, for ANY of the 4 cars I’m selling!

The way things have unexpectedly gone south with ‘1482, especially wrt photos in posts #313 and #314, leave me no choice. I was serious throughout; this was always about time, not money.

Sorry

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 10:09 AM

QUOTE(87m491 @ Mar 7 2024, 07:41 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 03:13 AM)

Now for sale here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=369454&st=0#entry3132521

And here I was thinking you didn't have a sense of humor. My bad!

"$99,500 $99,000 or best offer. As described and shown in my Garage thread:"

Posted by: mepstein Mar 7 2024, 10:20 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 11:09 AM)

QUOTE(87m491 @ Mar 7 2024, 07:41 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 03:13 AM)

Now for sale here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=369454&st=0#entry3132521

And here I was thinking you didn't have a sense of humor. My bad!

"$99,500 $99,000 or best offer. As described and shown in my Garage thread:"

Nope, no humor intended.

Posted by: BillJ Mar 7 2024, 10:53 AM

"Hey look at all the issues and i keep removing paint and undercoating to prove it needs a full restoration. Oh and i will sell it for fully restored price." Unreal

Posted by: KELTY360 Mar 7 2024, 10:56 AM

QUOTE(BillJ @ Mar 7 2024, 08:53 AM)

Posted by: FlacaProductions Mar 7 2024, 10:57 AM

I nominate this for the classics...

Posted by: Jonathan Livesay Mar 7 2024, 11:09 AM

QUOTE(BillJ @ Mar 7 2024, 08:53 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 11:17 AM

QUOTE(Jonathan Livesay @ Mar 7 2024, 10:09 AM)

QUOTE(BillJ @ Mar 7 2024, 08:53 AM)

"Hey look at all the issues and i keep removing paint and undercoating to prove it needs a full restoration. Oh and i will sell it for fully restored price." Unreal

Buys a nice looking running car for $57K tears it apart removing soundproofing and undercoating and poking holes in it, also renders it non running, thinks that makes it a $98K automobile?

Posted by: technicalninja Mar 7 2024, 11:48 AM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 10:04 AM)

Posted by: TROJANMAN Mar 7 2024, 11:51 AM

It says all fluids were flushed, but it doesn't mention coolant.

I think you got ripped off too.




Sorry...........slow day


Attached image(s)

Posted by: TROJANMAN Mar 7 2024, 11:58 AM

QUOTE(914sgofast2 @ Mar 5 2024, 06:50 PM)

Posted by: raynekat Mar 7 2024, 12:41 PM

A very sad thread indeed.

Posted by: 73-914 Mar 7 2024, 12:41 PM

QUOTE(Jonathan Livesay @ Mar 7 2024, 12:09 PM)

QUOTE(BillJ @ Mar 7 2024, 08:53 AM)

"Hey look at all the issues and i keep removing paint and undercoating to prove it needs a full restoration. Oh and i will sell it for fully restored price." Unreal

Buys a nice looking running car for $57K tears it apart removing soundproofing and undercoating and poking holes in it, also renders it non running, thinks that makes it a $98K automobile?
I read the first 6 or 7 pages of this back in January and already then I thought it was taking an "uncomfortable" turn, didn't see it again until today. Wow!

Posted by: mb911 Mar 7 2024, 01:07 PM

Is any of this even real? It almost seems as though we are all getting punked

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 01:48 PM

QUOTE(technicalninja @ Mar 7 2024, 10:48 AM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 10:04 AM)

As is … NOT negotiable, for ANY of the 4 cars I’m selling!

The way things have unexpectedly gone south with ‘1482, especially wrt photos in posts #313 and #314, leave me no choice. I was serious throughout; this was always about time, not money.

Sorry

I'll call your bluff.

I suggest you do EXACTLY as MR did previously...

Take your total investment, add it up carefully, then price it exactly 50% of what you have in it.

Someone on here will snap it up (as you, yourself did) in an extremely short period of time.

If it was NEVER about money and only about time this will be the most time saving way of ending your "self induced" issue.

I'd further suggest you spend this money with a mental health provider as this appears to be what you need more than anything else.

DO IT!

Car needs to go to someone who will appreciate it...

If you truly think someone will pay fully restored price for that, it will be in your garage when you cross the "rainbow" bridge, and your inheritors will have to deal with it.

You're going to own it FOREVER!

The mental stress of the constant reminder of your lack of foresight might send you over the bridge at an earlier date than you expect.

This car is mental poison for you...

All cars have a time when the proper path forward is to pull the EJECT handle and get the hell out!

Your time is now!

Posted by: Jonathan Livesay Mar 7 2024, 01:48 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 08:04 AM)

Posted by: Jonathan Livesay Mar 7 2024, 01:50 PM

QUOTE(TROJANMAN @ Mar 7 2024, 09:58 AM)

QUOTE(914sgofast2 @ Mar 5 2024, 06:50 PM)

How long is the forum administrator going to allow this thread to keep going?

Hopefully forever.

I just found this

Posted by: Rufus Mar 7 2024, 01:52 PM

QUOTE(Jonathan Livesay @ Mar 7 2024, 12:48 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 08:04 AM)

As is … NOT negotiable, for ANY of the 4 cars I’m selling!

The way things have unexpectedly gone south with ‘1482, especially wrt photos in posts #313 and #314, leave me no choice. I was serious throughout; this was always about time, not money.

Sorry

With regard to those photos this is a 55 year old car now, outside of those that have had floors replaced I would bet that this car is as good as 8 out of 10 would be once you take them down to bare sheet metal. Good luck with your sale!

Posted by: Eric_Ciampa Mar 7 2024, 10:14 PM

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 08:04 AM)

Posted by: Rufus Mar 8 2024, 07:27 AM

QUOTE(Eric_Ciampa @ Mar 7 2024, 09:14 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 08:04 AM)

I was serious throughout; this was always about time, not money.

...he says this and posts the car for 40K more than he paid. Bullshit. This was always about the money and the drama.

Posted by: mepstein Mar 8 2024, 08:48 AM

Rufus - Thank you for an entertaining thread. It just proves the phrase - “Truth is stranger than fiction’

Posted by: 73-914 Mar 8 2024, 09:16 AM

QUOTE(Eric_Ciampa @ Mar 7 2024, 11:14 PM)

QUOTE(Rufus @ Mar 7 2024, 08:04 AM)

I was serious throughout; this was always about time, not money.

...he says this and posts the car for 40K more than he paid. Bullshit. This was always about the money and the drama.

Posted by: mb911 Mar 8 2024, 10:04 AM

Recently watched the octopus murder series on Netflix and was incredibly complicated and learned don’t trust anything (that was my take away) I would say this adventurous thread is similar

Posted by: Root_Werks Mar 8 2024, 03:32 PM

QUOTE(mb911 @ Mar 7 2024, 11:07 AM)