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Posted by: germaneighter Mar 27 2024, 07:26 AM

It's been a long time since I've posted anything here. (My '74 has been in mothballs for many years, waiting for my retirement).

I was at an estate sale a couple of weeks ago where I purchased a '73 2.0 motor that was mounted on an engine stand. It looks to be a rebuild project. The heads look newly reworked. No rockers, tubes, or pushrods have been installed. (These parts were also included (new) along with most all required tin, fan, shroud and fuel injection.) #GA008920

The reason for this post: The oil galley plugs appear to have been soldered over then coated with JB weld. I've chipped the JB weld off some of them, only to be surprised by the solder. Has anyone seen this done? Any ideas on how to proceed?

FYI - I pulled a head to determine bore & stroke. It appears to be stock. Heads have been gone through and look like they were done well (just from visual inspection) They have new valves, springs, & guides and were bead blasted.

thanks






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Posted by: germaneighter Mar 27 2024, 07:35 AM

A couple mor pics


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Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 27 2024, 07:56 AM

Every time I think I’ve seen all the dumb stuff than could be done to a VW / T4 engine there is still something new

I think you have a couple options:

1) Run as is and hope for the best - knowing that whoever put this together was - ahem - intellectually challenged. This might be the option if you picked it up for $100 and dont care if it pops. I’d definitely run it on a test stand before wasting labor to install in a car without testing it first. Who knows - maybe the bearings are welded in too! Does it have bearings who knows.

2) Dissemble / reassemble it fully to see what else has been done to it. Would also be nice to know what cam has been installed, especially if you intend to run Fuel Injection.

3) Get a new (used) case in good shape and reassemble properly

4) Case could probably be machined to remove the welded blobs from the galleys and then drilled and tapped for proper galley plugs. This will require disassembly too. The cost to properly machine may well cost more than finding a good used case.

Note: the T1 oil pump with the steel cover is another warning sign. If you are not familiar, T1 oil pump has to be machined properly to “work” in T4 engine. Even then, T1 pump OD is smaller than the ID of the bore in the case and can result in internal leakage, oil pressure loss all depending on tolerance stack.

Posted by: Krieger Mar 27 2024, 08:12 AM

pull it apart. The parts may be worth more than $100. Your wasting your time installing and jerking around with getting it to work.

Posted by: Shivers Mar 27 2024, 08:22 AM

Back in the day, some of us had the galleys behind the flywheel welded up before assembly. But anything you could get to was not, those were threaded and plugged. Not sure what they want for it, just get it for a price with a possible case swap in mind if that one does not work out.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 27 2024, 09:14 AM

The problem with welding galleys is the potential for distortion of the bearing bores.

If welding were done before line boring, the distortion would be of zero concern having been machined out.

In this instance - the fact that they were welded and covered with JB weld suggests they either leaked after welding or that whoever did the welding had zero confidence in the welding itself which certainly looks to have been done by an amateur.

Posted by: brant Mar 27 2024, 09:25 AM

I'm not sure its welding?

steel bolt, aluminum case...
it could be brazing/solder
it also looks like a product I've used in the past called
"liquid metal"

which is a metal paste in a tube like RTV almost that dries hard... can be drilled or sanded.

the one bolt head that is pictured and fully cleaned off doesn't look like a weld had been there.

Posted by: technicalninja Mar 27 2024, 09:26 AM

That looks like an "organ donor" to me.

Might have some really good organs there!

What did you pay?

The welded-up stuff say's "Monkeys" to me...

Still, if you got good heads and all the stuff bolted to the case are good you may have kicked ASS!

I'd be ripping that apart!

Running that on a stand might be a good idea but I don't think I'd install that with that case.

If you can see evidence of poor quality on the outside...



You might just need a case and oil pump.

Looks like ANY case will work per Jake Raby.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Mar 27 2024, 10:05 AM

It’s also sort of hilarious that they didn’t bother to cover the one OEM straight threaded plug that often has the highest propensity to weep.

Posted by: Shivers Mar 27 2024, 10:13 AM

That was exactly what I did, luckily they ran it through and the guy doing the work on the case said it ran through clean. Thanks

Posted by: barefoot Mar 27 2024, 10:41 AM

Just take it apart and measure bearings & look for any wear. if it's still stock cam, will have rivets & not bolts holding cam gear.
inspect heads carefully for casting flash in the small passages particularly near exhaust ports. mine had so much there that grit had accumulated to block off most of those passages. My engine runs cool now.

Posted by: Karl R Mar 27 2024, 03:15 PM

Lucky find, but given what you can see from the outside,you will want to pull it apart and recheck or redo every operation in the assembly. Not really that big of a deal. While you are in there I would use a different case. Again, not that big of a deal. The bonus is that it will be a nice clean project, since it was freshly built.

Posted by: 914sgofast2 Mar 27 2024, 05:07 PM

The 2 liter crank and rods are worth $100 just by themselves. I would disassemble it and see what's inside and measure the case for distortion from the idiotic welding/brazing done by the DAPO. Used engine cases (and some motors) are pretty cheap, especially the 1.7 liter engines that nobody wanted in the past. If the 2 liter crank, rods, pistons, and cylinders are good, plus the 2 liter heads which seem good from your description, then you really scored. Ditch that Type 1 oil pump; they just don't ever work well in a Type 4 engine unless you are willing to do a lot of custom fitting/machining work.

Posted by: 914sgofast2 Mar 27 2024, 05:07 PM

The 2 liter crank and rods are worth $100 just by themselves. I would disassemble it and see what's inside and measure the case for distortion from the idiotic welding/brazing done by the DAPO. Used engine cases (and some motors) are pretty cheap, especially the 1.7 liter engines that nobody wanted in the past. If the 2 liter crank, rods, pistons, and cylinders are good, plus the 2 liter heads which seem good from your description, then you really scored. Ditch that Type 1 oil pump; they just don't ever work well in a Type 4 engine unless you are willing to do a lot of custom fitting/machining work.

Posted by: germaneighter Mar 27 2024, 05:27 PM

Thanks for all the feed back. Looks like a winter project, tearing this motor down. I'll report on what I find. Good thing I don't "need" a motor.

At this same sale I picked-up (8) storage tubs of parts. After going through everything I ended up with (2) full tubs of new parts, many in the original Porsche packaging.

I also picked up many pieces of new sheet metal. I didn't get hurt even if the motor ends up being total junk.

Posted by: 930cabman Mar 27 2024, 05:34 PM

Often times these type of buys work out well and you come out on top. "Many pieces of new sheet metal" could be the icing on the cake. Are they NOS?

Posted by: germaneighter Apr 2 2024, 07:32 PM

I couldn't wait for winter to tear into this thing. From my limited knowledge I didn't see anything on the inside as weird as the oil galley plug issue. The cam looks new. It has the following markings: CWC, C2, H6, 01, D2, EP93. Can anyone identify this cam from these marks?
All the pistons have been ran before but look to have a new, very slight relief cut into them. (higher lift cam than stock?)
I didn't pull the rods off yet. They look to be somewhat polished, maybe balanced?
From these pics does anyone see anything that stands-out, good or bad?
thanks


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Posted by: barefoot Apr 3 2024, 06:27 AM

That's an aftermarket cam with the bolt on gear, expect those grooves in pistons are from valve clash, not machining, I'd dress them a little deeper.

Just build it back up and run on engine stand, easy to do on the garage floor. then verify if any plugged oil gallery's are leaking.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Apr 3 2024, 07:52 AM

Any markings on front of cam where it comes through the gear around the slot for the oil pump drive tang?

All the other markings that are cast in are for the generic as-cast cam billet. I don’t believe any of those will tell you how the cam was actually ground.

You can measure lobe lift (using v-block and dial indicator) and try to use that information to narrow down what the cam is.

If you have a degree wheel that can help you to determine more info on overlap to ID the cam.

If the plan is to run Djet fuel injection, I’d spend some time to figure out what the cam is since FI doesn’t like to stray to far from stock cam.

The idea that the pistons are cut for valve relief would be contradictory to a mild FI capable cam. I agree with Barefoot, those look more like a previous valve / piston collision than intentionally machined valve relief. You can see the cross hatch / sanding marks where it looks like they cleaned up previously displaced material from the collision. Inspect the underside of the piston crown for any signs of deformation / cracking beyond what has happened top side.

I would also spend a little time measuring piston skirts, etc, since pistons are previously used and potentially had a valve collision.

Measure rod bearing clearances for yourself.

The re-use of damaged pistons is a warning sign that this rebuild was done with thrift in mind and needs to be carefully checked. Cylinders reused? Rings look new?

Posted by: r_towle Apr 3 2024, 10:52 AM

makes me wonder....is there a way, on an engine stand, to bring a case up to full oil pressure without actually starting the engine...to check for leaks.

Personally if that was my case I would remove all of those "fixes" and redo them with newly tapped inserts and sealant.

rich

Posted by: germaneighter Apr 29 2024, 10:18 PM

I've started milling the welds off to see what is going on underneath. I've only done one and it looks like he welded over the stock plug.
I was able to pull the factory plug once enough weld was removed. Also the welds are very porous. Maybe it's possible to save....


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Posted by: Superhawk996 Apr 30 2024, 05:15 AM

Hard to tell from picture but I think I see residual threads in the galley?

The OEM galley plugs were press / shrink fit - smooth bore, no threads.

Either way, looks like you are on a path to cleaning up slop, verify galley isn’t holding junk, and then drill and tap for new galley plugs.

Posted by: bkrantz Apr 30 2024, 07:04 PM

I will bet that unless hot, the pressure test will not give reliable results.

Posted by: mepstein May 1 2024, 04:41 AM

Right. A lot easier to do it right when the engine is apart.

Posted by: VaccaRabite May 1 2024, 11:23 AM

I'd bet that is a guy who lost an engine to a gallery plug blowing out. Said "never again!"

Its not the way I'd do it for sure, but the plugs sure as hell won't come out!

Zach