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Posted by: PanelBilly May 3 2024, 06:19 AM

https://youtu.be/RgVjMX8fB-g?si=QKmV6Vh0nchy1hcN

An no they don’t have a kit for the 914 yet. This is a complete kit that bolts into the car. Biggest job is replacing the wiring harness. If they take away our gas, kits like this will keep our old cars on the road. Might not happen in my lifetime but my kids might see that day.

Posted by: PanelBilly May 3 2024, 06:21 AM

Here’s the kit in its shipping crate

Posted by: PanelBilly May 3 2024, 06:24 AM

The cradle that holds the electric motor and battery pack. Transmission bolts to it and it hangs from the standard engine mounts. Entire package add 200 lbs.

Posted by: flipb May 3 2024, 07:18 AM

Who's the maker of the 911 kit?


For what it's worth EV West (and maybe others?) https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=223?utm_source=syndication.

Posted by: Shivers May 3 2024, 07:22 AM

How much did he say it was? My hearing is terrible and I couldn't pick it up

Posted by: technicalninja May 3 2024, 07:51 AM

The video has close captioning for us hearing impaired...

70K!!!!!!

At one time Tygaboy's V8 car could be had for 75K.

For that much money it better be able to PIN MY ASS to the seats.

Clay's big motor could be re-created for less.



The "noise" is interesting...

I think it's transmission related and because of the noisy engine that is normally installed we don't notice the tranny noises...

All of the Tesla conversion I've seen completed are SCARY fast and nearly silent...



That did look "plug and play" and the drive train mounting was exquisite!

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=6488 was it stupid fast?

The video did NOT properly show its potential.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby May 3 2024, 09:04 AM

"The Thrill is gone..." BB King.

Nothing visceral about that experience that I can see. Or hear. Or smell.

Posted by: VaccaRabite May 3 2024, 09:20 AM

I have a feeling you might change your mind on that as the initial acceleration tries to put your viscera out through your mouth and spine. The potential of the electric cars is amazing.

I do understand that car people in general don't like electric cars, and there is just no changing it. That's fine. To me, however, this is no different then a subi swap, or an LS1 swap, or a steam engine swap, or a diesel swap, or a rotary swap, etc. Each is interesting in its own way, with its own challenges to sort out.



I would bet that it is scary fast, but probably not Tesla fast as its still rear wheel drive instead of all wheel drive.

And if you are a 911 person considering doing this, the cost is almost meaningless. Its a binary issue - you either have the money or you don't. Most don't. If you do, you do, and you want the swap, the price tag doesn't matter. Keeps the club exclusive. See also RWB and Singer cars. Its far enough out of my budget to be just more smoke and magic.

The fresh 2.7 and 915 transmission I bought in 2022 came out of a 911 getting ready for a swap like this. The 2.7 was full and pristine and CLEAN. Owner just didn't care and wanted electric.

Zach

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 09:40 AM

Nope

Jeff is spot on.

I’ve been in tons of electrics. Soulless devices. Good at one thing. Massive acceleration off the line. Fast 0-60. Run out of oomph as speed rises - nature of an electric motor.

The “thrill” wears off very fast. Especially so when AWD, traction control, and ESC all make it a simple one pedal experience that any competent 12 year old could mash the pedal and be nearly as fast off the line as a pro driver.

After that you’re left with a device that highlights wind noise, and tire noise as the main sensory feedback.

Edit: I also forgot the increased propensity for your passengers to get motion sickness in EVs as another sensory feedback.
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/motion-sickness-electric-cars/#

Posted by: technicalninja May 3 2024, 10:28 AM

The acceleration is similar to hitting fast forward on an old school VCR.

Everything magically "Speeds Up".

You can feel the G force pin you to the seat but that's about it...

The Teslas I've driven were very quick but heavy and "planted" feeling.

You couldn't "dance" with it...

...become "one" with the car.

And in my book that is what makes a vehicle a "Sports Car".

Posted by: VaccaRabite May 3 2024, 10:48 AM

I'm not disagreeing with you.
But for the most part that "one thing" has been the mainstay of American muscle cars since the 1960s up to the end of the American muscle car when Dodge stupidly killed off the Charger and Challenger for a halfbaked electric model.

Since the 60's technology has moved towards making that acceleration faster and easier to attain. Manuals gave way to automatics. Then the automatics got appreciably faster then the manuals.

So I guess killing off the Charger and Challenger and bringing in some sort of electric nonsense instead was an admission that the ability to go fast in a straight line was done better by electrics.

I like electric cars. But I also like v8 monsters. And I'd like to have the choice. Well, and I guess right now my choice was to not buy the electric Dodge when I sold my v8 Challenger last year (and have regretted it ever since ) It was just worth too much on the secondary market at the time to keep it...

I also agree that Porsches aren't drag cars, and muscle cars are way different then sports cars. However, any modern 911 C4 would smoke my Challenger in a drag race anywhere except a prepped drag strip - and probably even there given mine was not a Redeye or Demon.

Zach

Posted by: BillJ May 3 2024, 10:52 AM

I have had a taycan in the garage. Two wheel drive version. Was pretty to look at with white on dark gray and the prototype wheels and the immediacy of speed was incredible. Handling was very competent and had no complaints other than concern on distance. Even took it to VIR and did some charity laps. It checked most boxes on paper.

However it never really got me going the way my -6 does. Sounds smells and experience all making for a unique (nowadays) experience of passion. Sure the taycan was cool but it didnt evoke the same love.

The kit described here seems pretty nice and also very reasonable financially. Any ICE engine capable.of competing with the experience of power of a comprable electic motor will likely come close to costing around that when all is said and done. You would need a 3.6 high compression engine to really get the same umph (keeping it 6 cyl porsche).

Posted by: ClayPerrine May 3 2024, 10:59 AM

Electric cars vs Gas cars are the equavelent argument to Gas stove vs Microwave.


The microwave is much faster, and cleaner. But I don't want to eat a microwaved steak.

If I were going to do something more modern to a 914, it would be this:

http://vonnen.com/#1


Their shadow drive add hybrid to ANY 911 out there, from 1965 onward. You still get the feel and the mechanical music of the ICE engine. But you get a major boost in performance with the hybrid system. And it is NOT tuned for fuel mileage. It is tuned for performance. But it does increase the mileage as a side effect.

The simplicity of this is amazing. They replace the flywheel with a motor/generator that is used for regenerative braking and driving the rear wheels. It also eliminates the starter. The new motor/generator takes care of that. The whole thing is controlled through a android/iphone app so it doesn't change the vintage look of the interior with a hybrid control panel.

I actually talked with them about doing my car. They said they could do a custom one to join the 964 engine to the Cayman transmission. But it would be $75K, and they have to install it. I would ask them to put in a bigger battery pack on my car.

I don't have 75K to spend on it.

Posted by: flipb May 3 2024, 11:16 AM

I love how any mention of EVs brings out the haters.

Seems like this 911 kit is a pretty remarkable balance between EV benefits and driver's car experience.

We're in the second decade of EVs entering the mainstream. With an EV Boxster coming soon, I think we'll start to see a lot of options across the entire spectrum from utilitarian to fun.

Case in point, from Matt Farah (who rocks an amazing upgraded Boxster Spyder as his favorite car). Preview of things to come?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2b_bGBuamY

Posted by: Root_Werks May 3 2024, 11:34 AM

Interesting, looking at what's in the crate, I see two gauges. Presumably to replace oil, fuel etc. with something like battery state or range yadda, yadda.

It's a substantial investment.

Biggest challenge with these kits is always range. Where to cram batteries, even if you have the room, how much more weight are you willing to accept vs. range?

Still, very cool someone has put together such a complete kit like this.

Posted by: Steve May 3 2024, 01:25 PM

I'm not against electric cars, but notice in these kit cars they never mention the mileage per charge. Most I have seen are less than 100 miles. Classic Retrofit built a nice ev914. https://www.classicretrofit.com/en-us/blogs/news/classic-retrofit-porsche-914-ev-wins-retrorides-car-of-the-year
Unless they outlaw our cars, I would rather buy a real ev than some clunky conversion.

Posted by: emerygt350 May 3 2024, 02:06 PM

That torque curve and the manual really makes me happy. Someday I am sure I will go electric (I already have a volt) in the 914 but I just couldn't do without shifting and the torque curve. I don't care if it's less efficient than without. I am hoping that by the time I have to switch, or want to, the batteries will be far lighter. That is really the biggest issue on the retro, and the reason the ranges are always so bad.

Posted by: ClayPerrine May 3 2024, 02:16 PM

I want to be clear. I don't hate EVs. I think they will be great in the future, when they get the range, infrastructure and charging times down to the level close to an ICE car. And they solve the environmental impact of battery disposal. And they get the power grid to a point where it can handle a lot of EVs charging at the same time.

But like I said, an EV will not give me the pleasure of an ICE car. Yes, I like the instant torque and the no gears of an EV for a daily driver. I have cars with automatic transmissions now. But I love the sound of an ICE engine at full song and I love a manual transmission for the sheer pleasure of driving spiritedly.

"Wind, in my hair. Shifting and drifting. Mechanical music. Adrenaline surge." (Thanks Neil. RIP)

Posted by: campbellcj May 3 2024, 03:07 PM

I don't think I'd ever personally mess with a 914 but am really looking forward to what Porsche does for example with the EV Cayman coming out soon. The GT4 ePerformance prototype was out at Rennsport 7 last year. I've been daily driving a Tesla for almost 3 years and the EV experience and this specific car have exceeded my expectations overall -- but we do have 7 vehicles and the other 6 are ICE (gas).

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 03:55 PM

Why is it that anytime someone fails to sing the praises of an EV that you roll out the name calling?

In the first line none the less!

Posted by: emerygt350 May 3 2024, 04:12 PM

I am not sure if everyone actually watched the video. The special thing here is the torque curve and the transmission.

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 04:16 PM

I watched it - fake gears, fake engine noise. I’ll take the real thing over software every time.

Lots of CVT transmissions had fake shift points.

Lots or cars have done augmented (fake) engine noise via the stereo.

Never cared for those “features” on ICE. I haven’t driven the Hyundai Ioniq so maybe it is that good. I’ll keep an open mind that it’s better than what’s out there so far.

It is funny to me though that the lack of engine noise, and lack of a transmission are supposed to be selling features for an EV, yet now they are being faked in an effort to engage the driver.

At the end of the day, is it really a 911 once it doesn’t make engine noise? Ought to be entertaining when I can go full bore NARP on a 911 guy with an electric motor and return those decades of ridicule

Posted by: wonkipop May 3 2024, 05:04 PM

having recently finally had a drive of a friend's tesla ------------->
i have to agree with you, can now be objective.
i had the distinct sensation i was driving a mobile home cinema. decor and all.

i'm planning an orchard i have decided. and making a stil. biofuel to keep the 914 going?

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 05:36 PM

Posted by: tygaboy May 3 2024, 06:17 PM

I'm in the "it's just another kind of swap. Like it/don't like, just like any other swap" camp. I'm helping a friend e-swap a Bugeye Sprite that already had a Buick 215 V8 swap. It's tough to argue with the performance and relative simplicity. If you don't like it, just move along. Me? I like them.
(BTW, I'll sell you my LS car for $60K.)

Posted by: ChrisFoley May 3 2024, 06:29 PM

I love my wife's Ioniq 5, 2 motor awd

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 06:40 PM

Serious question - have you played much with the n-torque distribution and what do you think of it?

I’ve always been surprised that more EVs aren’t doing lateral torque vectoring as well as the front / rear split

Posted by: Chris914n6 May 3 2024, 06:41 PM

$70k in just parts to do an electric motor swap and I get less miles and doesn't seem to be more power.

My car will move in 3rd though a bit sluggish. I normally start in 2nd.

Gas/petrol will be around another 30 years at least -- the world can't move faster.

Don't label me as anti-ev. I went to a dull EV car show last year.
Got to drive the R1T but it was the only test drive vehicle there. Decent truck, definitely felt the weight, 1 foot driving is a learned skill. Interested in the R2_ but I doubt the price makes sense for me.
I could sport the Ionic5 as a daily. Basic interior but roomy and calming. Not worth $50k
The BMW iX suv was nice. One of the most comfy seats I've been on.
Lucid Air was cramped and I kept banging my head on the roof getting in or out.
VW id4 was typical VW, which is nice for a daily, but without a Tesla charge port it's useless here.
The Model S was showing interior wear already. No X Y or 3 open for play.
No Tesla test drives
The Subaru was overpriced and under spec'd.
The F150 was an F150.
The legacy builders had much nicer vehicles to spend rush hour in.
Trek brought e-bikes. Those were fun
There were a few others like a Jag but were locked up with owners MIA.

The County put the event together and had good seminars covering rebates and stuff. Hopefully the next one will have more Dealer participation.

Lastly, ICE owners are alot more engaging.

Posted by: bkrantz May 3 2024, 06:45 PM

Like it or not, besides motive power, how does this EV kit or any other change the balance and feel of a 914? Or, for that matter, a 911?

The point is not just to make a car go, or just acceleration. The point (for me at least), is the combined thrill of driving on entertaining roads.

Posted by: emerygt350 May 3 2024, 07:04 PM

There was no fake noise, they discuss the transmission noise in the video. And the fact it doesn't make vroom vroom sounds

I think this kit is starting on the right path towards keeping the driving experience.

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 07:38 PM

Are we watching the same video? I’m referring to the Hyundai Iconiq video posted as a diversion from the 911 video to show how great EVs can be.

3:23 - 3:33 “there’s a fake burble tune”

9:12 - 9:14 (ish) discussion of fake boost mode and how it disables the fake engine sound and fake gears.

Posted by: emerygt350 May 3 2024, 07:48 PM

I dont think we are, they are discussing the transmission sound at that 323-333 and that straight cut gears would make it more pronounced. The video is only 4 minutes long, so I am not sure what 9minutes would mean.

Posted by: emerygt350 May 3 2024, 07:48 PM

I was sticking to the 911ev.

Posted by: Superhawk996 May 3 2024, 07:55 PM

Yeah - you are taking about the 911 video. I was taking about the Hyundai video.

With respect to the torque curve software on the 911, that curve is likely programmed to keep from tearing the out of the 915 transmission and clutch as much as it is for the driving experience.

Honestly, I’ve never driven an EV like the 911 conversion (electric motor+clutch+manual transmission) so again I’ll keep an open mind on that. Negates a lot of the benefits of an electric motor but agree it would be more engaging to drive than a conventional EV or typical EV conversion.

Posted by: Chris914n6 May 3 2024, 09:56 PM

The 915 is good for 500 ft-lbs of TQ. That motor doesn't look big enough meet that. Likely it's limited to stockish figures due to the lack of battery space. Unless they 'adjusted' stock TQ curve it really limits performance. It's like 50 ft-lbs at 2000 rpm where as it could be 200 and much faster to 60 or 100 mph.
If they doubled the power output vs stock, like a turbo would, then I would consider it an upgrade. But not for $70k. EVwest kit is like half that.
I also would not want to add 200 lbs to the rear of a narrow body 911.

Posted by: emerygt350 May 4 2024, 04:33 AM

I have hope that we will have light batteries in a decade or so, and if that happens we will be removing weight with ev installs.

I like the idea of programmable torque curves. I know we would all end up on the 935 turbo setting eventually but for longevity of the drivetrain keeping it at the 3.2 setting would probably be smart.

Posted by: ChrisFoley May 4 2024, 04:45 AM

It's her daily, so I really haven't driven it much and I haven't played beyond trying to find out what the various buttons on the steering wheel do.
We tried three EVs in one day and bought the Ioniq 5 on the spot, without looking any further. Suby and VW left us unconvinced. The Hyundai felt comfortable inside, right away.
One thing I really like is the ability to enter traffic and be at speed almost instantly. No noise, no drama, just rapid acceleration - in ECO mode. I haven't tested the limits of Sport mode, and I don't need to use an SUV as a substitute for a modern sports car. We have a BMW 240ix for that.

Posted by: ClayPerrine May 4 2024, 06:22 AM

There are companies out there that are selling adapters for the charge port. They plug into the car's factory charge port, and they have a connector for the Tesla chargers. They also have electronics to tell the Tesla chargers that it is a Tesla so it will charge.

We have a friend in the local PCA region that has a Taycan. She has one of these adapters she keeps in the car.

Posted by: PanelBilly May 4 2024, 08:55 AM

This isn’t designed to be better than the original car, but to make it possible for you to enjoy the original car in a city like Paris where they have outlawed older gas engines.

Posted by: wonkipop May 4 2024, 03:42 PM

not entirely true.

you can have a registered historic vehicle older than 1997 in paris.
and the usual appiies. have to be a member of car club etc to ensure its a genuine classic historic. most of those are garaged off street and not driven daily anyway.

as to the rest. banned from 8 to 8 daily during the day time. and only inside the ring road (peripherique).

paris did it to get rid of everyday junkers which are mostly diesel powered.
europe has a high proportion of diesel cars. all of which are truly filthy.
particulate pollution. the truth is you hardly need a car in central paris.

i have a good friend who has lived there for 30+ years now. he has a renault avantine he keeps garaged. you could call it a 90s antique classic. for everyday he is a member of an electric car scheme. just wanders down and grabs it from the street wherever it is.
good way to go in europe. the scheme's operators take care of the car, keep it charged etc. no headaches.

a very similar scheme by private operators is starting to happen here.
you never know i might join it. for urban travel in inner melbourne.
but the public transport here is pretty good so its sort of 50 50.
just keep my gas powered cars for weekend work. who knows.

Posted by: r_towle May 4 2024, 05:38 PM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=1435

I was just in Rome. Lots of little smart cars and fiats in the city, parked all over the place on tiny side streets.
While walking, I saw my first ever IDBuzz. It rolled through a crowd right next to me…I’m in. It’s at the top of my list.

The power grid in the USA needs work, but it will only happen as more of us buy these types of cars and the oil oligarchy learns how to make money from electric plants.

I think solid state batteries will make a big difference in US customers buying EVcar with ranges near 1k miles.

Posted by: Chris914n6 May 5 2024, 12:43 PM

The fact that it's been in the works for decades and still isn't available tells me it will be fuching expensive. Actually I think that is the hangup, Toyota can't get the cost down.

The Prius battery may be basic, but it's cheap and individual cells can be replaced by the average mechanic keeping it alive.

EV may be the future, but it's hybrid for the next 2 decades. If car made co2 is such a big deal why wasn't hybrids mandatory 10+ years ago?

Posted by: 930cabman May 5 2024, 01:10 PM

Nailed it,

I would not call myself a hater, but the experience of an ICE 914 works well for me

Posted by: technicalninja May 5 2024, 09:21 PM

This is an interesting electric motor.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38940998/koenigsegg-quark-electric-motor/

67lbs 134hp 184lb-ft

That is enough for 90% of the commuter cars out there.

But, for 20 seconds it will put out 335hp and 443lb-ft.

443ld-ft for 20 seconds will put a 3000lb car through 150+MPH!
You NEED the Autobahn to test this legally.

And it weighs less than your labrador!

And then they have the "terrier" which is two back to back.
Torque vectoring, no tranny needed. 167lbs, internal inverter.

This is what they have released publicly.
Who knows what's possible...

These are for hybrid use alongside an ICE engine, but they have merit on their own in my book.

Now we just need a power source of the same caliber.

Posted by: raynekat May 6 2024, 01:00 AM

I will be buried in an ICE car....end of story.
There is nothing that sounds like a Porsche flat six or delivers the power in such an emotional way. Nothing.

Posted by: 930cabman May 6 2024, 04:13 PM

Several years ago I was considering a V8 Ferrari, we drove a couple and my wife called it: they just don't compare with our 930. Couple years later I am somewhat entrenched in the world of 914's.