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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Fresh 2.7
Posted by: 930cabman May 8 2024, 05:23 PM
My /6 conversion is going on 3 years as it seems as many do. I had a local old school reputable shop build the stock 2.7, case was done at Ollies, .... should be a great engine. Finally trying to get her barking, but just won't take hold. While cranking she wants to start, but when I release the starter, she conks out. We have a spark (not real significant), timing is close, carbs appear ok.
Is it possible the valves or maybe rings are not sealing because the engine sat for about 2 years?
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 8 2024, 05:29 PM
Fuel
Compression
Spark
Something is missing or not in the right order. Go back and re verify your assumptions.
Use starting fluid if necessary. Carbs may not be working on idle jets.
Spark should be strong. Verify battery, coil, and timing
Now for the potentially bad news - verify compression. Leak down if necessary. Not sure who assembled but very easy to screw up cam timing on a 911 engine.
Posted by: technicalninja May 8 2024, 05:36 PM
Run a compression test. If low add 1/2 oz of ATF/WD40/ither light oil. Retest.
Better? Spin till it stops pushing lubricant out plug holes and re-try.
Most of the time I do my initial start on carb spray/ether (I use B12).
It's harder to do with ITBs but a little 1/2 second squirt down each barrel should run for 10+ seconds.
If your comp test is way low check valve clearance before ripping it back apart.
You can help valve sealing with a leak down test and bonking the valves.
This works on used, nasty engines.
Shouldn't be necessary on fresh lapped valves.
The only thing that long term storage of a freshly rebuilt engine might effect is the valve springs that have been sitting "compressed". It should only be two of them on a 6 and I would bet BIG money that three years wouldn't hurt them at all.
30 years might...
This does mean clean dry storage. Humid conditions might trash one in three years.
Posted by: mepstein May 8 2024, 05:46 PM
Don’t panic, it’s usually something simple.
We were having issues with a “noise” from a 993 engine that had been sitting for a while. Ran through all sorts of scenarios. Finally saw a spark plug that was removed to do a leak down. Replaced plug and it ran perfectly.
Posted by: nditiz1 May 8 2024, 06:49 PM
Can you confirm fuel is getting down the throats when pumping?
Posted by: flyer86d May 9 2024, 05:05 AM
I had the same issue with the 2.7 that I put together for my 68 911. I did all of the compression, spark, fuel verification. There were two issues. I was trying to run the 2.7 without a CDI box and fuel pressure was too high. I thought, they used to sell these cars with Weber carbs new and they started and ran nicely. I went back to the initial settings for the Weber’s including low speed mixture and ultimately fuel pressure at 3 psi. I installed an MSD 6A ignition. It then started, idled and took throttle nicely. That MSD does pack quite a wallop when I tried to put a loose plug wire back on even using insulated pliers.
Charlie
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 05:47 AM
Can you confirm fuel is getting down the throats when pumping?
Yes, I am getting a good squirt, but have not measured the amount of fuel. Where is a tiny graduated vial available to measure this.
Posted by: Luke M May 9 2024, 05:54 AM
Can you confirm fuel is getting down the throats when pumping?
Yes, I am getting a good squirt, but have not measured the amount of fuel. Where is a tiny graduated vial available to measure this.
Hi John,
Check out partsklassik.
https://www.partsklassik.com/p-3813-float-level-gauge-for-weber-and-zenith-carburetors.aspx
I believe they are closed until May 12th.
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 05:56 AM
I had the same issue with the 2.7 that I put together for my 68 911. I did all of the compression, spark, fuel verification. There were two issues. I was trying to run the 2.7 without a CDI box and fuel pressure was too high. I thought, they used to sell these cars with Weber carbs new and they started and ran nicely. I went back to the initial settings for the Weber’s including low speed mixture and ultimately fuel pressure at 3 psi. I installed an MSD 6A ignition. It then started, idled and took throttle nicely. That MSD does pack quite a wallop when I tried to put a loose plug wire back on even using insulated pliers.
Charlie
I picked up the MSD box and their coil a couple weeks ago, but then a hip replacement followed by internal bleeding has slowed me down a bit. I also was trying to run her with a (good) coil and points. A Pertronix is also on the way.
Where did you mount the MSD box?
Thank you all
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 06:01 AM
Fuel
Compression
Spark
Something is missing or not in the right order. Go back and re verify your assumptions.
Use starting fluid if necessary. Carbs may not be working on idle jets.
Spark should be strong. Verify battery, coil, and timing
Now for the potentially bad news - verify compression. Leak down if necessary. Not sure who assembled but very easy to screw up cam timing on a 911 engine.
A well known local 911 racer built the engine, I would say near 0 for a fault internally.
And yes, with fuel, compression and spark all coming together correctly is one of the reasons we wake in the morning.
Thanks all
Posted by: mb911 May 9 2024, 06:04 AM
Ok so I will echo wrong cam timing. A friend bought an engine a few years back from a reputable shop. Got the car running but ran terrible for a year chasing everything. Really not safe to even drive once he got it running. Turned out cam timing. It is very easy to time one cam 180 out. That is where my money is.
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 06:05 AM
Can you confirm fuel is getting down the throats when pumping?
Yes, I am getting a good squirt, but have not measured the amount of fuel. Where is a tiny graduated vial available to measure this.
Hi John,
Check out partsklassik.
https://www.partsklassik.com/p-3813-float-level-gauge-for-weber-and-zenith-carburetors.aspx
I believe they are closed until May 12th.
Luke, it might be this one" https://www.partsklassik.com/p-2136-carburetor-pump-discharge-vial.aspx
I was going to contact you, but this project is taking a back seat for another week or so. I need to heal a bit
Posted by: Retroracer May 9 2024, 08:26 AM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 - hope recovery from the health issues goes well.
Fuel/spark/run issues aside - did you turn over the engine (w/spark fuel disabled) to make sure the oil pressure builds nicely? The Dempsey book talks about the technique/need. You may well have done this already, but one less thing to debug before figuring out the 3-dimensional aspect of cams/fuel/spark/running/etc....
- Tony
Posted by: gereed75 May 9 2024, 08:31 AM
Incorrect fuel level in carbs can result in a no go condition. The sight glass shown in the first link is the way to go Works like a charm.
I think the second one measures the accelerator pump discharge. That is way less critical than setting float level.
Get better
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 09:37 AM
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=24877 - hope recovery from the health issues goes well.
Fuel/spark/run issues aside - did you turn over the engine (w/spark fuel disabled) to make sure the oil pressure builds nicely? The Dempsey book talks about the technique/need. You may well have done this already, but one less thing to debug before figuring out the 3-dimensional aspect of cams/fuel/spark/running/etc....
- Tony
Thank you, after almost a week of an internal bleed after a hip replacement, we are on the mend.
Yes, I have an old school oil pressure gauge and have confirmed 20-25 psi while cranking.
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 09:40 AM
Incorrect fuel level in carbs can result in a no go condition. The sight glass shown in the first link is the way to go Works like a charm.
I think the second one measures the accelerator pump discharge. That is way less critical than setting float level.
Get better
I can tell everyday is improving, thank you
The Weber 40 IDT float levels appear quite simple with the 18mm and 12.5mm gauges and I am confident with the float levels. I am hoping the addition of a new MSD box, MSD coil and Pertronix trigger will get me over the hump.
Posted by: Root_Werks May 9 2024, 10:00 AM
Would certainly do a simple compression test, just to make sure those numbers are good enough to start the engine.
Would agree with most, probably something simple, timing too far or ignition switch cutting power after you let off the start position.
Would really hope the cams are not 180 out. 
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 9 2024, 01:06 PM
Would really hope the cams are not 180 out.
Remember 911 cam timing is set via index pin that has a multitude of possible “wrong” positions.
Doesn’t have to be out 180.
It sounds like there are still plenty of other assumptions that need to be verified and hopefully it isn’t cam timing.
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 01:14 PM
Would certainly do a simple compression test, just to make sure those numbers are good enough to start the engine.
Would agree with most, probably something simple, timing too far or ignition switch cutting power after you let off the start position.
Would really hope the cams are not 180 out.
My engine builder has probably built hundreds of 911 engines, I suspect the fault does not lie with the engine internals.
dumb question: how/why would the power to the coil not be energized after releasing the ignition switch?
Prior to the /6 conversion, she was a running /4. Nothing was changed in the main wiring harness
Posted by: mb911 May 9 2024, 01:17 PM
Would certainly do a simple compression test, just to make sure those numbers are good enough to start the engine.
Would agree with most, probably something simple, timing too far or ignition switch cutting power after you let off the start position.
Would really hope the cams are not 180 out.
My engine builder has probably built hundreds of 911 engines, I suspect the fault does not lie with the engine internals.
dumb question: how/why would the power to the coil not be energized after releasing the ignition switch?
I have built hundreds of aircraft engines and about 20 911 engines. Trust me it can happen but your right to chase down the power issues
Posted by: technicalninja May 9 2024, 01:45 PM
Running the compression test WILL verify cam timing!
Sort of...
The thing that most effects compression test readings is intake valve closure.
If you have a cam timing screw up on one side, you WILL have similar compression readings per bank but the readings between the two banks will differ.
Driver side all read 190 and passenger side all read 145 you have a cam timing issue.
It's also the reason I mentioned checking valve adjustment before tear down.
The valves adjusted incorrectly will vary compression readings although not nearly as much as the cam timing being out.
Have you done a compression test yet?
I just love the offset cam timing holes like the 911 has. You can alter your cam timing without having to buy special gears or strange "offset" bushings.
That set up is "completely adjustable" cam timing from the factory!
It requires that the technician fully understands what he's doing but is "THE WAY" in my book for adjustable cam timing. They all aught to be like that!
Posted by: flyer86d May 9 2024, 02:52 PM
I had the same issue with the 2.7 that I put together for my 68 911. I did all of the compression, spark, fuel verification. There were two issues. I was trying to run the 2.7 without a CDI box and fuel pressure was too high. I thought, they used to sell these cars with Weber carbs new and they started and ran nicely. I went back to the initial settings for the Weber’s including low speed mixture and ultimately fuel pressure at 3 psi. I installed an MSD 6A ignition. It then started, idled and took throttle nicely. That MSD does pack quite a wallop when I tried to put a loose plug wire back on even using insulated pliers.
Charlie
I picked up the MSD box and their coil a couple weeks ago, but then a hip replacement followed by internal bleeding has slowed me down a bit. I also was trying to run her with a (good) coil and points. A Pertronix is also on the way.
Where did you mount the MSD box?
Thank you all
I bolted the MSB box to the firewall. There is a little more room in an early 911 engine compartment than a 914-6. I might think about putting it in the rear trunk and running the wires thru one of the plastic domes.
Charlie
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 03:37 PM
Running the compression test WILL verify cam timing!
Sort of...
The thing that most effects compression test readings is intake valve closure.
If you have a cam timing screw up on one side, you WILL have similar compression readings per bank but the readings between the two banks will differ.
Driver side all read 190 and passenger side all read 145 you have a cam timing issue.
It's also the reason I mentioned checking valve adjustment before tear down.
The valves adjusted incorrectly will vary compression readings although not nearly as much as the cam timing being out.
Have you done a compression test yet?
I just love the offset cam timing holes like the 911 has. You can alter your cam timing without having to buy special gears or strange "offset" bushings.
That set up is "completely adjustable" cam timing from the factory!
It requires that the technician fully understands what he's doing but is "THE WAY" in my book for adjustable cam timing. They all aught to be like that!
No compression test yet, funny, my doctor prior to hip replacement a week and a half ago was adamant " do not work on cars for at least 4 weeks" and she had no idea I was a 914 nut
I am hoping next week to get back into the car shop
Posted by: 930cabman May 9 2024, 03:40 PM
I had the same issue with the 2.7 that I put together for my 68 911. I did all of the compression, spark, fuel verification. There were two issues. I was trying to run the 2.7 without a CDI box and fuel pressure was too high. I thought, they used to sell these cars with Weber carbs new and they started and ran nicely. I went back to the initial settings for the Weber’s including low speed mixture and ultimately fuel pressure at 3 psi. I installed an MSD 6A ignition. It then started, idled and took throttle nicely. That MSD does pack quite a wallop when I tried to put a loose plug wire back on even using insulated pliers.
Charlie
I picked up the MSD box and their coil a couple weeks ago, but then a hip replacement followed by internal bleeding has slowed me down a bit. I also was trying to run her with a (good) coil and points. A Pertronix is also on the way.
Where did you mount the MSD box?
Thank you all
I bolted the MSB box to the firewall. There is a little more room in an early 911 engine compartment than a 914-6. I might think about putting it in the rear trunk and running the wires thru one of the plastic domes.
Charlie
I am thinking inside the trunk, as being away from the battery. Hopefully the cables are long enough.
Posted by: Root_Werks May 9 2024, 03:44 PM
Would certainly do a simple compression test, just to make sure those numbers are good enough to start the engine.
Would agree with most, probably something simple, timing too far or ignition switch cutting power after you let off the start position.
Would really hope the cams are not 180 out.
My engine builder has probably built hundreds of 911 engines, I suspect the fault does not lie with the engine internals.
dumb question: how/why would the power to the coil not be energized after releasing the ignition switch?
Prior to the /6 conversion, she was a running /4. Nothing was changed in the main wiring harness
Could be a bad ignition switch, it happens. Easy to test. Just ensure the terminal that powers the coil/CDI stays alive in Run and Start positions.
Fingers crossed it's still something simple. Others have already said, if compression comes back really low, likely not a good sign. Could try to squirt some LR2 (for you aviation folks) down each plug hole and try again. If numbers are still really low, likely cam timing or very ill adjusted valve lash.
Posted by: flyer86d May 10 2024, 05:42 AM
Would certainly do a simple compression test, just to make sure those numbers are good enough to start the engine.
Would agree with most, probably something simple, timing too far or ignition switch cutting power after you let off the start position.
Would really hope the cams are not 180 out.
My engine builder has probably built hundreds of 911 engines, I suspect the fault does not lie with the engine internals.
dumb question: how/why would the power to the coil not be energized after releasing the ignition switch?
Prior to the /6 conversion, she was a running /4. Nothing was changed in the main wiring harness
Could be a bad ignition switch, it happens. Easy to test. Just ensure the terminal that powers the coil/CDI stays alive in Run and Start positions.
Fingers crossed it's still something simple. Others have already said, if compression comes back really low, likely not a good sign. Could try to squirt some LR2 (for you aviation folks) down each plug hole and try again. If numbers are still really low, likely cam timing or very ill adjusted valve lash.
I’ve seen ignition switches fail as you described. It will try to run while cranking the starter and quit as soon as the key is released.
Charlie
Posted by: gereed75 May 10 2024, 08:20 AM
I had the exact same symptoms.
Changed the ignition switch. Much better. Maybe the contacts get oxidized or fried in the run position because they are in the closed position for so long while running??
Much worse on cold days for some inexplicable reason.
Posted by: 930cabman May 10 2024, 08:59 AM
I had the exact same symptoms.
Changed the ignition switch. Much better. Maybe the contacts get oxidized or fried in the run position because they are in the closed position for so long while running??
Much worse on cold days for some inexplicable reason.
After 50 years, this stuff does wear out. This a simple test procedure, but maybe not so simple to change it out.
Posted by: 930cabman May 23 2024, 12:28 PM
Checked power at the coil + terminal, solid 12volts. Wants to start (almost) when cranking, but nothing when I release the key to the run position. Almost feels like the ignition system is being fed with 6 volts.
Sure wishin I could get this project moving.
Posted by: Root_Werks May 23 2024, 12:41 PM
Checked power at the coil + terminal, solid 12volts. Wants to start (almost) when cranking, but nothing when I release the key to the run position. Almost feels like the ignition system is being fed with 6 volts.
Sure wishin I could get this project moving.
I have long test wires so if I want to sit in the car while cranking, can watch a volt meter. Make a couple of 10ft wires with little clips, test yourself. Cheap and easy. Will eliminate or confirm at least one possible issue.
I still think (a rather dangerous pastime of mine) your ignition switch is dropping or cutting voltage when returning from start to run positions. Could totally be something else, but symptoms sure fit the potential cause.
Posted by: 930cabman May 23 2024, 03:36 PM
I have noticed a rather large (more than I am used to) spark when I connect the battery. I have removed all of the fuses, but it's possible there is a short somewhere. Finding it can be a bit tricky.
Good idea to check the voltage when cranking
Posted by: Geezer914 May 23 2024, 03:44 PM
Any possibility of a vacuum leak?
Posted by: 930cabman May 25 2024, 01:26 PM
Any possibility of a vacuum leak?
Thanks, but it doesn't appear so.
I attempted to connect an ammeter in series with the battery+ terminal and the + cable. I blew the fuse in my VOM, so I am suspecting there is too much of a current draw somewhere. Not sure how to track it down.
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 25 2024, 01:51 PM
Any possibility of a vacuum leak?
Thanks, but it doesn't appear so.
I attempted to connect an ammeter in series with the battery+ terminal and the + cable. I blew the fuse in my VOM, so I am suspecting there is too much of a current draw somewhere. Not sure how to track it down.
Ammeter is good for 10 amps. If you tried cranking that draws about 75-100A.
If you blew a 10A fuse with just ignition on, then you definitely have a VERY large current draw somewhere. Coil / CDI box should only be 4-6A draw. Lights or other large current drains turned on at ignition on could take you well over 10A fuse.
You either need a shunt resistor or a DC capable current clamp if you want to measure more than 10A directly.
Have you confirmed the basics yet?
PS - why are you measuring current? To confirm the coil while cranking you only need to monitor voltage at the coil while cranking.
Posted by: 930cabman May 25 2024, 04:38 PM
Any possibility of a vacuum leak?
Thanks, but it doesn't appear so.
I attempted to connect an ammeter in series with the battery+ terminal and the + cable. I blew the fuse in my VOM, so I am suspecting there is too much of a current draw somewhere. Not sure how to track it down.
Ammeter is good for 10 amps. If you tried cranking that draws about 75-100A.
If you blew a 10A fuse with just ignition on, then you definitely have a VERY large current draw somewhere. Coil / CDI box should only be 4-6A draw. Lights or other large current drains turned on at ignition on could take you well over 10A fuse.
You either need a shunt resistor or a DC capable current clamp if you want to measure more than 10A directly.
Have you confirmed the basics yet?
PS - why are you measuring current? To confirm the coil while cranking you only need to monitor voltage at the coil while cranking.
Basics, yes. Fuel, compression, spark timing ok with spark.
With everything off, just connecting the battery I get a larger spark than I would like. I am suspecting a large current draw, earlier I disconnected the alternator with no change. Pver the past several months I did some metal work, hell hole and other misc metal repairs in the engine bay as well as adding a /6 mount. Hoping I did not damage any wiring within the main harness.
Thanks
Posted by: IronHillRestorations May 25 2024, 06:45 PM
I’m going to guess the distributor timing is incorrect or 180* out. Very easy to do. Pull the valve covers to confirm.
If you have a early 911/914-6 style flywheel the marks on the rim of the flywheel won’t line up with the marks on the crank pulley on the 2.7, you have to remark Z1, 120*, 240* and the timing mark. The crank throws on a 2.4 and 2.7 are different.
Posted by: thomasotten May 25 2024, 07:10 PM
Distributor firing order.
Posted by: 930cabman May 26 2024, 07:27 AM
Checking ohms across the + battery cable (when disconnected) and the negative cable should be 0 ohms. Correct or incorrect?
This is confirmed with my well running 2056, 0 ohms
Moving to my /6 conversion, not so. Checking across the + battery cable (when disconnected) and the negative battery I am getting 170 ohms
Checking across one pair of red cables ( normally connected to the + battery cable) and the negative cable I am getting a reading of approx 400 ohms, but quickly goes to much higher reading.
Checking across the MSD heavy red cable and the battery negative cable I am reading 12K ohms
Currently putting a full charge in the battery, will try for actual voltage when cranking. I suspect there is a short or more somewhere.
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 26 2024, 07:48 AM
Checking ohms across the + battery cable (when disconnected) and the negative cable should be 0 ohms. Correct or incorrect?
This is confirmed with my well running 2056, 0 ohms
Moving to my /6 conversion, not so. Checking across the + battery cable (when disconnected) and the negative battery I am getting 170 ohms
Checking across one pair of red cables ( normally connected to the + battery cable) and the negative cable I am getting a reading of approx 400 ohms, but quickly goes to much higher reading.
Checking across the MSD heavy red cable and the battery negative cable I am reading 12K ohms
Currently putting a full charge in the battery, will try for actual voltage when cranking. I suspect there is a short or more somewhere.
Not sure how to respond since it’s not clear to me what you’re measuring and under what conditions.
Short answer; with ignition off and both the battery + and battery negative (-) disconnected from the battery, you should see an open circuit (infinite) ohms assuming you have no parasitic loads like radio memory, the 914 center console clock, etc.
Not sure how you could possibly be measuring zero ohms on the /4. Zero ohms would represent a short circuit and then when you connect the battery, the cables would get hot, melt insulation, and glow red hot.
So you are not using the meter properly, or I’m not understanding what you’re doing.
Posted by: 930cabman May 26 2024, 08:09 AM
Checking ohms across the + battery cable (when disconnected) and the negative cable should be 0 ohms. Correct or incorrect?
This is confirmed with my well running 2056, 0 ohms
Moving to my /6 conversion, not so. Checking across the + battery cable (when disconnected) and the negative battery I am getting 170 ohms
Checking across one pair of red cables ( normally connected to the + battery cable) and the negative cable I am getting a reading of approx 400 ohms, but quickly goes to much higher reading.
Checking across the MSD heavy red cable and the battery negative cable I am reading 12K ohms
Currently putting a full charge in the battery, will try for actual voltage when cranking. I suspect there is a short or more somewhere.
Not sure how to respond since it’s not clear to me what you’re measuring and under what conditions.
Short answer; with ignition off and both the battery + and battery negative (-) disconnected from the battery, you should see an open circuit (infinite) ohms assuming you have no parasitic loads like radio memory, the 914 center console clock, etc.
Not sure how you could possibly be measuring zero ohms on the /4. Zero ohms would represent a short circuit and then when you connect the battery, the cables would get hot, melt insulation, and glow red hot.
So you are not using the meter properly, or I’m not understanding what you’re doing.
My mistake, infinate ohms on my 2056.
/6 conversion, quite different
Posted by: mlindner May 26 2024, 08:27 AM
I moved the battery to the trunk. Then fabricated a panel to hold both the MSD box and coil. Did have to get a longer coil wire. It does open up the engine compartment a lot. Mark
Posted by: 930cabman May 26 2024, 10:17 AM
I moved the battery to the trunk. Then fabricated a panel to hold both the MSD box and coil. Did have to get a longer coil wire. It does open up the engine compartment a lot. Mark
I left the battery in the stock location and mounted the MSD box where you have the battery.
Somewhere there is a load (short) in the wiring, as far as I know there should be infinite ohms between the + and - battery cables, when disconnected of course.
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 26 2024, 10:20 AM
Got it.
Agree the 170 ohms on the /6 is not ideal
Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage.
Are you using points or some sort of other electronic ignition (Pertronix, Mallory, etc.).
Your MSD box at 12k ohms isn’t the source of the 71mA load.
Focus on the basics. Some sort of electrical short is not the cause of your starting issue.
Example: will the engine start and can it be kept running on brief squirts of starting fluid?
Posted by: 930cabman May 26 2024, 04:44 PM
Got it.
Agree the 170 ohms on the /6 is not ideal
Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage.
Are you using points or some sort of other electronic ignition (Pertronix, Mallory, etc.).
Your MSD box at 12k ohms isn’t the source of the 71mA load.
Focus on the basics. Some sort of electrical short is not the cause of your starting issue.
Example: will the engine start and can it be kept running on brief squirts of starting fluid?
I have used a points/condenser setup for many years, but this project is running a Pertronix 1867A. Starting fluid seems to help a bit, but not enough. While cranking she trys to start, but once I release the key to the run position she dies. I have confirmed with a VOM 10.5 while cranking, 12V when in the run position.
Just about ready to call in the calvary as in a new set of eyes.
Thanks to all
actually quite anxious to get this project rolling down the road, there have been many hurtles
Posted by: mb911 May 26 2024, 05:05 PM
Got it.
Agree the 170 ohms on the /6 is not ideal
Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage.
Are you using points or some sort of other electronic ignition (Pertronix, Mallory, etc.).
Your MSD box at 12k ohms isn’t the source of the 71mA load.
Focus on the basics. Some sort of electrical short is not the cause of your starting issue.
Example: will the engine start and can it be kept running on brief squirts of starting fluid?
I have used a points/condenser setup for many years, but this project is running a Pertronix 1867A. Starting fluid seems to help a bit, but not enough. While cranking she trys to start, but once I release the key to the run position she dies. I have confirmed with a VOM 10.5 while cranking, 12V when in the run position.
Just about ready to call in the calvary as in a new set of eyes.
Thanks to all
actually quite anxious to get this project rolling down the road, there have been many hurtles
Did you do a compression check yet?
Posted by: windforfun May 26 2024, 05:47 PM
"Ohms law: 12v / 170 ohms = .071 amps of parasitic draw. This is more than it should be but not enough that it would account for your starting difficulties. 71mA of current draw is not enough to draw down your battery or cranking voltages. It will however, drain your battery in storage."
Hmmm... 71 mA is enough to kill you. IMHO, this doesn't sound right.
https://www.galvinpower.org/how-many-amps-will-kill-you/
Posted by: 930cabman May 26 2024, 06:02 PM
I sense the compression is good based on the sound of her cranking, will confirm tomorrow
Posted by: technicalninja May 26 2024, 06:04 PM
windforfun, thought you are an EE Sir!
It's at 12V...
A human will not even feel 1 amp at 12V.
.071 amps X 12 v = .852 watts of power.
You really cannot do anything "automotive" with less than a single watt.
It will slowly take the battery down.
That's it.
Now .071amps at 400,000 volts could fry your ass...
Maybe too many 
?
Posted by: 930cabman May 26 2024, 06:21 PM
windforfun, thought you are an EE Sir!
It's at 12V...
A human will not even feel 1 amp at 12V.
.071 amps X 12 v = .852 watts of power.
You really cannot do anything "automotive" with less than a single watt.
It will slowly take the battery down.
That's it.
Now .071amps at 400,000 volts could fry your ass...
Maybe too many
?I would like to think the no start issue is something electrical, but maybe not. Curious as to where the "parasite" could be lurking.
Posted by: technicalninja May 26 2024, 07:15 PM
I'll put the draw issue to bed with this...
ALL of our modern stuff has memory circuits for different things.
Radio
Windows (auto down and up REQUIRE resetting after disco of the battery)
Seat memory. (same as above)
ECU/PCM (adaptive learning would be lost without it)
Sunroof.
Lots of things I cannot remember right now...
A draw of 71ma is super low for a modern car.
Leave it sitting for 6 weeks and it SHOULD be a dead puppy.
I put marine battery turnoffs in modern stuff that will sit a long time.
I tell my customers how to do the memory resets that will be a requirement every time they disco.
A draw of 71ma MIGHT be a modern radio in a 914...
I don't think a bone stock 914 would have any draws but I might be wrong.
The draw is a "red herring" in the trouble with this car IMO.
Posted by: windforfun May 26 2024, 07:19 PM
windforfun, thought you are an EE Sir!
It's at 12V...
A human will not even feel 1 amp at 12V.
.071 amps X 12 v = .852 watts of power.
You really cannot do anything "automotive" with less than a single watt.
It will slowly take the battery down.
That's it.
Now .071amps at 400,000 volts could fry your ass...
Maybe too many
?Nope. An amp is an amp. Read the link. It's quoted here:
"Electric currents between 50 and 150 mA can cause lethal respiratory paralysis, intense muscle spasms, and a much higher risk of ventricular fibrillation. These currents are thought to be extremely hazardous and necessitate emergency medical attention."
"Yes, 220v has the ability to kill a person. According to some reports, electrical shocks at voltages as low as 42v can cause severe injuries and even death."
This is especially the case with DC & it ASSUMES that your body draws this current in the first place. A 12 V battery won't kill you, but a 42 V battery might if it can deliver enough current & you're standing barefooted on wet ground. This ASSUMES one handed contact with the current going to ground through you. A rubber mat prevents this. With two handed contact the current will go through your heart. I always wear rubber soled sneakers & only use one hand when working on high voltage circuits.
BTW, I don't drink. I just own a brewery & support beer drinking. Cheers.
Posted by: mb911 May 26 2024, 07:36 PM
I sense the compression is good based on the sound of her cranking, will confirm tomorrow
Ok but as I said a few different times if it won’t run on starting fluid it is more than likely timing related to cams or dizzy out. I trouble shot a 2.7 early spring that he actually drove for a year that started very hard but spun over just fine. Cam timing was way off
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 26 2024, 08:23 PM
I sense the compression is good based on the sound of her cranking, will confirm tomorrow
Ok but as I said a few different times if it won’t run on starting fluid it is more than likely timing related to cams or dizzy out. I trouble shot a 2.7 early spring that he actually drove for a year that started very hard but spun over just fine. Cam timing was way off
Compression check all cylinders with a real gauge. No guessing.
If those are all normal, I’d dump the Pertronix and use a set of points. I am not a fan of Pertronix. There are iterations of the Pertronix that can be destroyed by overheating just by leaving the key in the on position without the engine running for too long.
Do the compression check FIRST.
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 26 2024, 08:43 PM
Hmmm... 71 mA is enough to kill you. IMHO, this doesn't sound right.
I can’t tell if you’re jerking my chain. But since I love to add useless information to threads
That 71mA isn’t flowing through a person, it’s flowing in automotive wiring.
Using a DMM, measure the resistance from hand to hand. Probably about 2 Million ohms with dry skin. Now wet your fingers that are holding the test leads and re-measure. Probably about 200,000 ohms.
Using a 12v battery as power source and the wet fingers & body we just measured through: 12v / 200000 = 0.000060 Amps or 60 micro amps.
And I lived to tell the tale.
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 26 2024, 08:49 PM
The draw is a "red herring" in the trouble with this car IMO.
Stay on task, don’t get distracted by the parasitic draw. That can be sorted out after you have the engine running.
Posted by: technicalninja May 26 2024, 09:14 PM
Just remembered a stock 914 parasitic draw...
Only on appearance group cars.
The clock!
Posted by: Superhawk996 May 26 2024, 09:21 PM
Just remembered a stock 914 parasitic draw...
Only on appearance group cars.
The clock!
For what it’s worth:
There are two versions of the clock. Early clocks are mechanical movement. Later clocks are Quartz movement.
Here’s the cool part. The mechanical clocks aren’t a continuous parasitic draw. They pulse to wind the mainspring then the clock runs for a while off the mainspring until a solenoid is triggered, rewinding the mainspring. I love the early clocks just for the sound they make and the pure Rube Goldberg genius nature of them.
See my build thread for a video of a mechanical clock winding. Page 2, post #33.
@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=27135
Posted by: 930cabman May 27 2024, 06:02 AM
ON TO SOMETHING
as you can imagine, this driving me crazy. MB911 lit a spark with his suggestion of a compression check. I slept on it last night and had a plan. My compression gauge is old school, two pieces. One end threads into the spark plug hole with a male quick connect coupler and the other end contains the gauge with a mate to the female quick connect. Compression with all plugs removed and WOT is 120 + - across the board. I am happy with this as the rings are not yet seated. What got me thinking was having the end threaded into cyl #1 and listen to the compression as I crank the motor. It is looking like the distributor is retarded at least one tooth. As I am cranking the motor over I can hear a whoosh from #1 cylinder at least 20 or 30 degrees before the notch on the distributor body. Just may have found it.
Thanks all contributors, and everyone enjoy the holiday with thanks to those who served to keep us the greatest nation ever
Being the holiday, it looks as though the rest of the day will be spent with my wife, kids and grandkids.
Posted by: 930cabman May 29 2024, 02:54 PM
She lives 
Spark timing was retarded by probably one tooth.
There are many details to be worked out, carbs, fuel pump, generator light, ....
but I can tell by the sound, she is going to rock
Posted by: mate914 May 29 2024, 07:27 PM
She lives
Spark timing was retarded by probably one tooth.
There are many details to be worked out, carbs, fuel pump, generator light, ....
but I can tell by the sound, she is going to rock
It feels good, right?
Congrats!!!! Let the six 914 run with the wild Porsche....
Matt
Posted by: 930cabman May 30 2024, 04:55 AM
She lives
Spark timing was retarded by probably one tooth.
There are many details to be worked out, carbs, fuel pump, generator light, ....
but I can tell by the sound, she is going to rock
It feels good, right?
Congrats!!!! Let the six 914 run with the wild Porsche....
Matt
Good is much understated, how about SUPER, after mucho $$, several years, many brain cells, ......
Now I just need to sort a couple things and might be rolling down the road this weekend.
The taste of victory is very good, and the sound of a six
Posted by: Root_Werks May 30 2024, 09:29 AM
Very glad this had a happy ending! Or rather a beginning of a six!
Posted by: 930cabman May 30 2024, 03:14 PM
Thank you to all contributors, she is running decent, now onto the Webers and then I will be done, but are we ever done 
Posted by: flyer86d May 30 2024, 03:32 PM
As I found out on my 2.7, set up the Webers on initial settings. I found them on line, set the fuel pressure at 3 psi and then adjust till it runs as you like it. We have all gotten used to fuel injected motors which magically start and run. But set up close to right, Webers work great. It just takes some futzing and a lot of patience.
Charlie
Posted by: 930cabman May 31 2024, 08:08 AM
As I found out on my 2.7, set up the Webers on initial settings. I found them on line, set the fuel pressure at 3 psi and then adjust till it runs as you like it. We have all gotten used to fuel injected motors which magically start and run. But set up close to right, Webers work great. It just takes some futzing and a lot of patience.
Charlie
I have been running Webers on several different sporting cars for many years, with success. Yes, they can be touchy, but I like the simplicity of them. When a modernish FI system is working correctly, there is probably nothing better.
I am getting different air flow numbers from my snail when comparing from venturi to venturi. Is this a sign the air adjusters need attention? I have always had these closed, but have never had a venturi to venturi difference in air flow. This is my first go with 3V carbs.
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