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Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 10:19 AM

i like the look of triple throat webers, but i have a /4.....

just wondering if i'm making stuff up again...

ignore this if you must

Posted by: bondo Aug 24 2005, 10:21 AM

Yes. Bring money.

Posted by: lapuwali Aug 24 2005, 10:35 AM

Yes. The IDF that everyone mentions when they talk about "dual Webers" have two-throats each, and two are used per car, so four throats total. They're about $250 used on Ebay with no manifolds, linkage, or filters. Figure roughly $500 to have a complete set bolted to the car.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 24 2005, 10:38 AM

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 24 2005, 11:35 AM)

Yes. The IDF that everyone mentions when they talk about "dual Webers" have two-throats each, and two are used per car, so four throats total. They're about $250 used on Ebay with no manifolds, linkage, or filters. Figure roughly $500 to have a complete set bolted to the car.

IDF=dual throat... which is what we told you go go with to start with

the progresive may be great on a beetle, but not a TIV... in addition to ebay, check samba and STF, people sell them used enough that you don't have to break your wallet and get a "new" set... buy a rebuild kit from aircooled.net with any used ones and they will be good as new

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 24 2005, 10:59 AM

dual throat Webers are not made.

they are grown, in the zinc-rich volcanic soil outside Modena, in Italy. they take a long time to mature, hence the high cost.

sometimes, like a double-yolk egg, triple-throat Webers sprout. they are highly prized by the 911 and 914.6 owner.

if a Weber plant is not staked up and grows along the ground, the result is sidedraft carburetors, such as the DCOE.

Dellortos are grown over on the other side of the valley, from seeds spirited away from the Weber farm by disgruntled employees in the dead of night.

"not a lot of people know that."

Posted by: URY914 Aug 24 2005, 11:00 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:19 AM)

ignore this if you must

I must.

Posted by: zymurgist Aug 24 2005, 11:40 AM

What's a Weber? Something you cook hamburgers on?

/MFI guy

Posted by: Matt Monson Aug 24 2005, 11:40 AM

So,
I heard a rumour this week that the 40 IDF plantation is being moved from Italy to Japan and that they are shortly going to be coming out of former rice paddies? Any truth to this rumour?

Posted by: aircooledboy Aug 24 2005, 11:57 AM

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 24 2005, 11:59 AM)

dual throat Webers are not made. they are grown, in the zinc-rich volcanic soil outside Modena, in Italy. they take a long time to mature, hence the high cost. sometimes, like a double-yolk egg, triple-throat Webers sprout. they are highly prized by the 911 and 914.6 owner. if a Weber plant is not staked up and grows along the ground, the result is sidedraft carburetors, such as the DCOE. Dellortos are grown over on the other side of the valley, from seeds spirited away from the Weber farm by disgruntled employees in the dead of night. "not a lot of people know that."

Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 24 2005, 12:15 PM

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Aug 24 2005, 10:57 AM)

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 24 2005, 11:59 AM) dual throat Webers are not made. they are grown, in the zinc-rich volcanic soil outside Modena, in Italy.  they take a long time to mature, hence the high cost. sometimes, like a double-yolk egg, triple-throat Webers sprout.  they are highly prized by the 911 and 914.6 owner. if a Weber plant is not staked up and grows along the ground, the result is sidedraft carburetors, such as the DCOE. Dellortos are grown over on the other side of the valley, from seeds spirited away from the Weber farm by disgruntled employees in the dead of night. "not a lot of people know that."

yep... IDA's and IDF's are both two barrel down drafts....

Idf's are available in 36mm, 40mm, 44mm, and 48mm sizes....
good luck finding some rare 36mm's

Posted by: Rotary'14 Aug 24 2005, 12:16 PM

QUOTE

So, I heard a rumour this week that the 40 IDF plantation is being moved from Italy to Japan and that they are shortly going to be coming out of former rice paddies? Any truth to this rumour?

I heard the same thing, but instead of Japan it was China. Doesn't PMO have their hardware made in china? Weber also had available the 48 IDA in a 2 throat model. It would use the same floats & hardware as the triple throat model that our 6 cylinder bros like to use.

Posted by: lapuwali Aug 24 2005, 12:20 PM

Great post, Rich...

Weber carb production moved from Italy to Spain some time ago, and the current rumor is the Spanish factory is also closed. Some say it's a temporary strike, others say a strike drove the last nail and Weber is out of the carb business entirely. Mikuni (in Japan) has been making Solex sidedraft carb clones for years (under license), and many people confuse these with DCOE clones, which they're not, though they will work with an appropriate manifold. The Dell Orto factory stopped production of their Weber clones many years ago.

There are rumors that Chinese made IDF and DCOE clones will be flooding the market very soon. Some say what EMPI sells are Chinese made right now. This rumor is one thing depressing the used market for IDFs and DCOEs now. There are enough Italian-made IDFs available on the used market that I've never even seen a Spanish-made unit, and I've had 5-6 sets of these carbs, and have looked at several dozen others.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 24 2005, 12:29 PM

you also can always get a pair of PMO's and just run 'em through a bandsaw. make sure you keep the pair with the Siamesed float bowl :-)

Posted by: SLITS Aug 24 2005, 01:13 PM

My local VW shop (I sell to them), informed me last week that production has begun again on Webers. He is able to get IDF style, but not DCOE style.

I really wanted to ignore Britt.....I think his brain has rotted from too much in-breeding and sour mash....

Posted by: Mark Henry Aug 24 2005, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 24 2005, 12:38 PM)

the progresive may be great on a beetle, but not a TIV...

It's a POS on a beetle too

Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 24 2005, 01:42 PM

kinda like this britt???

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 24 2005, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (URY914 @ Aug 24 2005, 09:00 AM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:19 AM) ignore this if you must I must.

But when you get money I have a complete set up for sale 40 IDF. Too big for your whimpy 1.7L stock cammed racer.

Posted by: JOHNMAN Aug 24 2005, 01:57 PM

Aaron,

That sight brings back memories (prior to the 3.2). Is that yours? Looks like the "good" linkage that doesn't flex that much.


Britt,

I wouldn't go less than 44's on a 2.0 engine as you can't get chokes large enough for the 40's.

I would take a closer look at aftermarket FI instead of going down the carb road (again).

(just my $0.02)

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 24 2005, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Aug 24 2005, 02:57 PM)

I wouldn't go less than 44's on a 2.0 engine as you can't get chokes large enough for the 40's. I would take a closer look at aftermarket FI instead of going down the carb road (again). (just my $0.02)

I agree with the aftermarket FI...

however, you can jet 40s for a 2.0 or 2056 fine... ac.net and CB both have the parts

Posted by: lapuwali Aug 24 2005, 02:06 PM

Yes, 40s with 32mm vents are quite enough for a 2056 that doesn't have too wild a cam. 44s are only required for full-race 2056s or bigger engines, IMHO.

And yes, aftermarket EFI will work better still...

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 24 2005, 02:12 PM

Yup that's what I am running on my 2.0L 40 IDF 32 vents Long CB intakes. cam is .500 lift and 290 duration Bursch and SSI's

In regards to the linkage I just took my CB linkage off and put the other kind on. I think the CB piece was just plain wore out as it has too much slop in it. Gotta figure out how to rebuild it.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 24 2005, 02:17 PM

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 24 2005, 03:06 PM)

Yes, 40s with 32mm vents are quite enough for a 2056 that doesn't have too wild a cam. 44s are only required for full-race 2056s or bigger engines, IMHO. And yes, aftermarket EFI will work better still...

I use 32mm vents on weber 40s on my 2056...

125 mains
F11 emulsion
60 idles


all per Jake's recommendation

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 02:29 PM

yeah...kinda like that.

guess I need to get started on building my carbed 2.0

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 24 2005, 02:34 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 01:29 PM)

yeah...kinda like that.

dual throat webers, 44 IDF ...




Attached image(s)

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 02:37 PM

those look good andy!


sehr gut!


tsch(umlaut U) s!

Posted by: Mueller Aug 24 2005, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 01:37 PM)

those look good andy! sehr gut! tsch(umlaut U) s!

almost 3000 posts and you've never heard of dual webers or seen pictures????

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 24 2005, 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 24 2005, 12:57 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 01:37 PM) those look good andy! sehr gut! tsch(umlaut U) s! almost 3000 posts and you've never heard of dual webers or seen pictures????

That's my point zackly!

Rock on Mike, BTW has anyone noticed the Bird board has more activity lately? Yup Britt posts there also.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 03:05 PM

it's because i didn't care if they were made or not before.

disregard the post numbers, obviously you all know I was just BS'ing.


oh and about the carbs, before this carb i was a full-out FI guy...and before that the only carb i ever seen pictures of is the holley 4 bbl carb that 6 cyl jeeps used.

so until this stint, i didnt really care/notice abotu carbs....

everyone is a "newbie" at one time or another..just remember that.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 24 2005, 03:16 PM

Posted by: bondo Aug 24 2005, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 02:05 PM)

it's because i didn't care if they were made or not before. disregard the post numbers, obviously you all know I was just BS'ing. oh and about the carbs, before this carb i was a full-out FI guy...and before that the only carb i ever seen pictures of is the holley 4 bbl carb that 6 cyl jeeps used. so until this stint, i didnt really care/notice abotu carbs.... everyone is a "newbie" at one time or another..just remember that.

Sounds like you need to start caring about more stuff.. Soak it up like a sponge..

Things you should probably start caring about so you won't be a newbie when the time comes:

Cams
Suspension
5 lug stuff
Brakes
Wheels
Porsche sixes
Chevy V8s
Transmissions
Flares
Paint

Posted by: Tom Perso Aug 24 2005, 03:28 PM

And not to be down on ya - yes, we were all n00bs once...

But, if you are gearing up to build your 2.0L motor and you don't know about Webers, you need to do some more research. A lot more.

Small steps my friend - the experts here didn't get that way overnight.

But, I understand what you are saying - if you don't care about something, you won't know about it.

I don't know shit about Fords, so there...

Tom

Posted by: maf914 Aug 24 2005, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 24 2005, 01:24 PM)

Things you should probably start caring about so you won't be a newbie when the time comes: Chevy V8s

Posted by: SLITS Aug 24 2005, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 24 2005, 02:16 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 24 2005, 03:36 PM

QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Aug 24 2005, 12:57 PM)

Aaron, That sight brings back memories (prior to the 3.2). Is that yours? Looks like the "good" linkage that doesn't flex that much. Britt, I wouldn't go less than 44's on a 2.0 engine as you can't get chokes large enough for the 40's. I would take a closer look at aftermarket FI instead of going down the carb road (again). (just my $0.02)

yup...my motor. 44's on a hot cammed 2.0


yup..they is way too big.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 04:30 PM

so aaron, wait a sec....

to use my newly learned knowledge:

40s would have been a better fit, right?

Posted by: Sammy Aug 24 2005, 04:37 PM

Thjis is what you need for your engine, Dodd.
They will work perfectly on a stock 1.7
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=8_240

"These are a Berg casting that we machine to 58mm. The industry standard 48IDA bolt pattern and dimensions are maintained so they fit all 48IDA manifolds without modification or adapters including V8 applications. Installs facing the same as the Weber 48 IDA so no new linkage needs to be made except with carb to carb linkage such as Tayco, you also need to purchase GB 460J mounting brackets. Idle and progression circuitry is properly designed for the larger bore size, which provides easy tuning, and smooth acceleration from idle up. Topped off with a 62mm velocity stack which provides far more flow, yet still fits our GB 505-51 velocity stack covers. "

Posted by: SLITS Aug 24 2005, 05:06 PM

I'm gonna use a pair of Holley 1100 CFM Dominators on a couple of 3 lb coffee can manifolds with my 1918

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 05:15 PM

QUOTE (Sammy @ Aug 24 2005, 04:37 PM)

Thjis is what you need for your engine, Dodd. They will work perfectly on a stock 1.7 http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=8_240 "These are a Berg casting that we machine to 58mm. The industry standard 48IDA bolt pattern and dimensions are maintained so they fit all 48IDA manifolds without modification or adapters including V8 applications. Installs facing the same as the Weber 48 IDA so no new linkage needs to be made except with carb to carb linkage such as Tayco, you also need to purchase GB 460J mounting brackets. Idle and progression circuitry is properly designed for the larger bore size, which provides easy tuning, and smooth acceleration from idle up. Topped off with a 62mm velocity stack which provides far more flow, yet still fits our GB 505-51 velocity stack covers. "

58mm!!??

a bit overkill for my 1.7 isnt it?

Posted by: Tom Perso Aug 24 2005, 07:31 PM

Get 40's, or a set of the baby Webers, I think they are single 36's? That would work great on a 1.7.

You could build a MegaSquirt system and just stop dorking around with carbs.



Tom

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 07:48 PM

i'm thinking I would get better milage with a MS than I would with carbs anyway, plus I could use my plenum and intake runners from my D-jet system


I was also thinking about L-Jet too.....The local muffler guy is also a 914 nut, and he has a complete L-Jet setup from a bus for sale....also has a 2.2 /4....

lemme ask this, is MS able to be self-tuned? Or would I have to take it somewhere.....? I think I would be more intrested in tuning an FI system with a computer than I would tuning carbs.

Posted by: flesburg Aug 24 2005, 08:04 PM

I have a complete weber set up for a 2.0, intakes, carbs, CB linkage, tall air cleaners, intake horns, proper distributor, and boxes of chokes, main and idle jets.

Interested?

Posted by: trekkor Aug 24 2005, 08:08 PM

QUOTE

I think I would be more intrested in tuning an FI system with a computer than I would tuning carbs.

from the posts and threads I've read of late, I'll take that to mean: "I'd rather work on my car and never drive it".

How much is an aftermarket F.I. BTW?
Way more than carbs, I promise you that.

carbs are so simple and they work.

If you want fuel efficiency and reliability, the 914 is the wrong car. We all know that. We won't all admit that.
But, we all know.


See, look what you've made me become.

KT

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 08:14 PM

wait...you opened pandora's box man....

MS is like 300 assembled and everything....

the kit is less than that. I am very good at soldering so I was going to get the kit.....

tuning and laptop equip is free....


how do you figure the cost difference?

Posted by: trekkor Aug 24 2005, 08:25 PM

Time is money.

Maybe I'm way off, and if I am, I'll admit that openly.

I just don't see the crowds running any aftermarket F.I. with fantastic results.

the carbs go on in an afternoon and that's it. you're done...and they win.

I'd just like to know the *actual* price for any aftermarket F.I. and an estimated time to install and tune to the point where you can go and enjoy the car without taking the lap-top in the passenger seat.

You made me do it again...

KT

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 24 2005, 08:25 PM)

Time is money. Maybe I'm way off, and if I am, I'll admit that openly. I just don't see the crowds running any aftermarket F.I. with fantastic results. the carbs go on in an afternoon and that's it. you're done...and they win. I'd just like to know the *actual* price for any aftermarket F.I. and an estimated time to install and tune to the point where you can go and enjoy the car without taking the lap-top in the passenger seat. You made me do it again... KT

so what you're saying is that I could have a carb setup going in a day?

i think that if i had MS, I would keep a laptop in my car.....

i'm not worried about it being stolen, it's a 2 inch thick Thinkpad 380...pentium 133.

Posted by: trekkor Aug 24 2005, 08:37 PM

And try this tasy tidbit.

All this "carbs won't work with the stock cam"... is *MYTH*.

Back that up with hard evidence you demand ( pounding fist on table ).

Certainly.

One of our local 914 a/x pros used to run his duals on his 2.0 hot cammed motor. He blew that motor, but still wanted to race.

So he bolted them onto an old stock 1.8 with no adjustments.
Guess what? The motor runs fantastic. No issues.
Could it run better? maybe.
...beat me by 1/2 second and 80 other drivers.
he missed TTOD by less than a second.


Albert Correia can drive.
http://www.pca-ggr.org/acresults/081405.html

KT

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 24 2005, 08:38 PM

correct me if i'm wrong but IIRC that $300 kit doesn't include the wideband O2 sensor it really requires to dial in an unknown engine.

you can get into the base level kit if you're running the same production engine as other guys who've done the dyno tuning and are willing to share their maps. in a competitive environment, i wouldn't bet my last shekel you're getting the *best* map :-) ...

and with carbs - you can bolt them on and be *close* in an afternoon. once you're in the ballpark with a broad strokes characterisation of your engine, the *real* tuning can begin to optimise. some kind of instrumentation (wideband O2, CO, 5-gas... *something*) is still needed to really dial spot on. or - again - if you have an engine that's just like everybdy else's - you order up their jets and decree it close enough.

a little lean on top? bigger main jet? smaller air correction? different emulsion tube? you need a big box of spare parts to *really* dial in a set of carbs...

so i think you've both underestimated the scope of the task a bit, unless you're willing to settle for the "close enough" solution. the advantage of a closed-loop EFI is that it'll eventually self-correct, but carbs are what they are forever (or until the weather changes :-) ....)

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 24 2005, 08:37 PM)

And try this tasy tidbit. All this "carbs won't with the stock cam"... is *MYTH*. Back that up with hard evidence you demand ( pounding fist on table ). Certainly. One of our local 914 a/x pros used to run his duals on his 2.0 hot cammed motor. He blew that motor, but still wanted to race. So he bolted them onto an old stock 1.8 with no adjustments. Guess what? The motor runs fantastic. No issues. Could it run better? maybe. ...beat me by 1/2 second and 80 other drivers. he missed TTOD by less than a second. Albert Correia can drive. http://www.pca-ggr.org/acresults/081405.html KT

i fully agree with that...I have *NO* problem with my FI cammed motor and the carbs....

my P-mechanic didn't like the idea at all, but we both agreed that my FI was toast.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 24 2005, 08:44 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 24 2005, 10:37 PM)

All this "carbs won't with the stock cam"... is *MYTH*.

of course, because that's not what the statement really is...

the "urban legend" hot-rod tuner myth is that you can bolt on carbs *and go faster*.

that's what's not true. carbs run just fine with stock cams but they don't add power. IOW - the cam - not the induction - is the bottleneck.

i ran small Dellortos on a 1,7 and they were fine. i got no more power, but i did gain reliability. this was 25 years ago before the body of DJet knowledge was available to all. it was the right decision to make then, and i wish i'd kept the carbs when the car went away, but nowadays, i'd just fix the FI...

Posted by: trekkor Aug 24 2005, 08:44 PM

QUOTE

so what you're saying is that I could have a carb setup going in a day?

yes...

If you know the size of your motor. ( And you do.)

Ask the board ( or Jake, nicely ) what jet/choke combo works and install "that" during the rebuild if you buy used ones.

KT

Posted by: Joe Ricard Aug 24 2005, 08:54 PM

You know what pisses me off more than anything?
I keep coming back to Britt's threads. It's like I can't believe I get sucked into the madness.

I guess that makes me

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 08:56 PM

what typically goes wrong with carbs?

I'm real intrested in a dual carb setup, and I figure that gas prices, when added up over X amount of time, still don't equal the price of a quality engine rebuild...so it's not worth getting 30MPG in trade for destroying my engine.

Granted I am running a 1.7 and I was strongly urged to go with a dual carb setup when I rebuild my 2.0...so I believe that the single carb, while not optimal by any means, won't contribute to my engine's demise.

I want to publically thank Ron for shipping me this engine...thanks ron your a lifesaver!

Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 24 2005, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 10:56 PM)

what typically goes wrong with carbs?

nothing.

guys on the 356 list light up their 50-year-old 1,5-1,7 liter engines with 50 year old Solexes and drive every day.

EVENTUALLY the throttle shaft bores wear and leak air. the butterflies sometimes wear. (these are 30-50 year items...)

the gaskets dry out, the float bowls get enough little bits of crud (they are vented to atmosphere...) idle jets plug. accel pump diaphragms split.

so every 10 years or so you take them apart, clean everything, replace the gaskets and such and you're back in service.

how long do the FI guys go without having to clean injectors. same thing...

Posted by: SirAndy Aug 24 2005, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Aug 24 2005, 07:38 PM)

until the weather changes :-)

or you decide to attend a 2 day event in reno ...


britt, don't listen to trek, he's never had any type of testing equipment hooked up to his motor to even know *how* his engine is running.
much less a dyno run ...

either way, if you want your engine to run right, you *WILL* spend time tuning your engine, Carbs or FI ...

for me, using the laptop is easier than fiddeling with with a whole box of jets and tubes and stuff ...

it all comes down to personal preference ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor Aug 24 2005, 09:15 PM

QUOTE

don't listen to trek

Good advice...

KT

( no blue smoke-no black smoke...I'm good to go, Bro )

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 09:22 PM

i'm a computer guy, but the only fuel injection i've ever had was d-jet and it was a nightmare.....

i had do re-do SO many connectors.....and it still sucked.

i have no idea how hard/easy it is for aftermarket FI, but I know if I can set up a windows 2000 domain server and a linux server and learn php, i can tune a car with a laptop.

but the carbs were good, no problem there yet.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 24 2005, 10:00 PM

Due to a Strike At Weber In Brazil, Weber Kits Have been Increased.


Dual "EMPI" 44MM IDF Carb Kit.............. Price $749.95
http://www.strictlyforeign.com/

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 24 2005, 10:03 PM

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=183123

new, made in china

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 24 2005, 10:36 PM

wow, so this is it huh?

i have a nice warm feeling now, and I like the way those carbs look....

Posted by: Mueller Aug 24 2005, 11:00 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 08:22 PM)

i have no idea how hard/easy it is for aftermarket FI, but I know if I can set up a windows 2000 domain server and a linux server and learn php, i can tune a car with a laptop.

You can download and run the software for free for most of them, the manuals are also availabe to download for free. Everything is a google search away.

Your best bet is read the Megasquirt manual, knowing how to solder is not the key element here...READING the entire manual is key, it'll step you thru building and tuning. It breaks everything down to the simplest terms, no real prior experiance needed. An WBO2 is useful and will pay for itself very quickly...the LC-1 is only $200 and it'll work with almost all EFI's and you can use your laptop to datalog and get all kinds of cool information about your motor. You do not need to keep a laptop in the car, once tuned, you shouldn't have to tweak it unless you do something major like add a turbocharger.

Even my EFI, the Link has the software available to download for free as well as the wiring manual and tuning manual

(windows based for most of them, some still use DOS..actually one of the most expensive and best EFI use DOS based programming)

QUOTE

i have a nice warm feeling now, and I like the way those carbs look....

individual fuel injection throttle bodies look better

Posted by: messix Aug 24 2005, 11:01 PM

FI not reliable? gee my 116,000 mile 1.8 with L-jet gets 30 mpg on our last road trip on local back roads with much speed and elevation changes and alot of shifting.

and the only problem i have had with the FI was when the current D/A owner was fartin around in the engine compartment he knocked loose some "vacuum" hoses that caused a turn over but no start condition that with 5 minutes of newby 914 trouble shooting had it running.
and i'm driving this car just about every day.

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 25 2005, 08:10 AM

don't waste your money on 40 or 44 at this time britt. in my experience 44 will give you pretty poor low end perfomance. when you DO have an engine with the need for dual, duals, get a GOOD linkage. spend the money. for your 1.7 i would just look for a set of single barrel webers. much cheaper. a set of $250 40 are a crap shoot. be prepared to rebuild them.

k


Attached image(s)

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 08:15 AM

i want to thank everybody for this whatever its called....

on the topic of L-jet, I could buy a L-Jet system from a friend for not that much...it's basically extra stuff from his bus....

could I plug N play into my engine?

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 25 2005, 08:25 AM

yes, rebuild ANY used set of carbs you buy... it's a $30 kit and you will LEARN something by doing it...

yes, you can run carbs on a stock cam engine, but as rich said, it won't buy you hp, you may even lose a little... but the thing will run fine... better than the single carb by a LONG shot...

I disagree with Kev on one thing... if you get the baby 36s a 1.7/1.8 is about tops for those carbs... buy 40s, and you are fine up to 2056, maybe even 2270(pushing it)

44s you are good for about 2.5, 48s, about as big as you can make...

think about the future, and get at least 40s, or 44s... and DEFINATELY get a good linkage!!!

MS may seem like a very attractive price tag... but it's not just a bolt-on and go thing... be prepared to have the car out of commission for a GOOD while...

Ljet would be great too... but you got frustrated with Djet, why do you think Ljet or MS will be different? no FI is really "plug-n-play" M$ boy...

Posted by: Mueller Aug 25 2005, 08:27 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:15 AM)

i want to thank everybody for this whatever its called.... on the topic of L-jet, I could buy a L-Jet system from a friend for not that much...it's basically extra stuff from his bus.... could I plug N play into my engine?

you "should" be able to but I don't buses at all...

the L-jets are pretty robust except for the dual relay can fail (just old age and heat).

The air flow meters can be damaged from a backfire (you don't touch the gas while trying to start car), it does have contacts that can wear out or need cleaning


L-Jets systems "hate" vac leaks. In order to help on mine, I removed the crankcase lines going to the air intake elbow (after the metered air) and made plugs to fill in the 2 holes in the elbow. I had this on a 2.0 and it ran great.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 08:34 AM

well, i heard they are really flexible with different engine sizes.....

now, were talking only about stock engines...no engines with 3 lobes on a cam or anything cray right...

Posted by: Mueller Aug 25 2005, 08:37 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:34 AM)

well, i heard they are really flexible with different engine sizes..... now, were talking only about stock engines...no engines with 3 lobes on a cam or anything cray right...

my 2.0 was stock except for it having the higher compression flat top euro pistons and a header....

i say stay with the single carb if it's working, and slowly get all the parts needed for a megasquirt...there are enough of them running right now that you could get a base map and have it running in day.......

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 25 2005, 08:41 AM

the only reason i suggested singles was, i never know what path britt plans on taking. . singles can be had cheap, and they're easy to dial in. throwing the duals on the engine he has, esp 44s, will produce a million threads about low end bogging and what jetting combo he needs. wait until folks tell him to change emmulsion tubes and air correction, let alone float heights. a set of $500 carbs, which when the dust settles, he will have into the works, sitting in a box, is a waste of money. he needs an engine that REQUIRES that size of carburation. just mvho.

k

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 25 2005, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Aug 25 2005, 09:41 AM)

the only reason i suggested singles was, i never know what path britt plans on taking. . singles can be had cheap, and they're easy to dial in. throwing the duals on the engine he has, esp 44s, will produce a million threads about low end bogging and what jetting combo he needs. wait until folks tell him to change emmulsion tubes and air correction, let alone float heights. a set of $500 carbs, which when the dust settles, he will have into the works, sitting in a box, is a waste of money. he needs an engine that REQUIRES that size of carburation. just mvho. k

I see your point... I hadn't thought about all the threads of course if it's not carbs, it will be something else

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 09:00 AM

they all ask a question, right?

i have a single carb now...runs great.


carbs seem easier to work on.....

FI seems to be more precise with regard to fuel atomization...which has been proven.

if base maps are available, then going FI would not be a bad idea....

dunno how to tune Megasquirt, but there are assumably alot of information about it online.

i know that 44s would not be a good choice for my 1.7....

this single works, i'm talking about the next engine....

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 09:01 AM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 25 2005, 08:27 AM)

the L-jets are pretty robust except for the dual relay can fail (just old age and heat). The air flow meters can be damaged from a backfire (you don't touch the gas while trying to start car), it does have contacts that can wear out or need cleaning

dual relay can be worked around

the air meter's seem to be widely available....

are they all universal or is it specific like the MPSs?

Posted by: mudfoot76 Aug 25 2005, 09:14 AM

Just to add more fuel to the fire ---

Britt, I have Weber 44s, hot cam, and flat top pistons in my 2.0L. You're not too far south from me, so I suspect you will have cool/cold mornings in spring and fall where you'll want to drive the car. The Weber 44s do not have a choke, so starting from cold on a cold morning/evening can be a chore. Once you get it to fire, let it idle for a few minutes to get things a little warm. Someone mentioned throttle response -- yes, it is not very good below 3k rpm. It sucks. Don't entertain any ideas about drag racing because from a standing start, it doesn't go very well (but once I get to 3.5krpm watch out because then it takes off. While I would never condone street racing, there may one time have been an MR2 somewhere that may or may not have been pwn3d once...) back on topic --> the carbs are a different beast.

I like mine well enough. My MPG ranges from 20-25 for driving around town and commuting. On track for a DE, significantly less. With fuel prices the way they are now, that kind of stings, but I don't daily drive my 914. It isn't practical for me to use it that way here, and I have never considered it for such. It is for fun, so I deal with it. It is a 32 yr old car that doesn't have all the modern "conveniences", and I don't expect the same reliability out of it that I do my MINI Cooper S. Carbs have their own special gremlins. I recently had a screw come loose on my linkage. Once I figured out the problem, all I needed was an Allen wrench. I don't have to worry about vacuum hoses, but I do have to worry about cloggin jets, mixture settings, etc. Pick yer poison...my car's PO decided to install carbs, so that's what I'm sticking with for now...




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Posted by: ClayPerrine Aug 25 2005, 09:15 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 09:01 AM)

QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 25 2005, 08:27 AM) the L-jets are pretty robust except for the dual relay can fail (just old age and heat). The air flow meters can be damaged from a backfire (you don't touch the gas while trying to start car), it does have contacts that can wear out or need cleaning dual relay can be worked around the air meter's seem to be widely available.... are they all universal or is it specific like the MPSs?

The dual relay cannot be worked around, due to the way it's designed.

the AFM is calibrated to the engine. If you sub an AFM from a different engine, it will have the incorrect spring tension, so the fuel mixture will be off.


FYI... Most of the rebuilt AFMs out there are setup for a 1800 Type 1 motor. It is NOT the correct calibration for a 1.8L Type IV.

Posted by: rhodyguy Aug 25 2005, 09:29 AM

megasquirt!!! oh yes, start immediately!!! or right after you buy the webers or dells, and take them apart. . best to leave some bread crumbs at every fork in the road.

k

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 04:21 PM

okay...

my single carb does have a choke....and it works.

I actually expected worse mpg from the 44s....20-25 is what i was used to getting from my old 2.0 setup....so honestly it wont be that bad.

It is overkill for my 1.7 though.

I need to pay some people back first, then i'll rebuild my 2.0 to like a 2.2 and go with some 44s....

rhodyguy, i don't need bread crumbs....I have AAA.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 04:23 PM

i'm really getting SICK and tired of letting people show me up in thier ricey crap.....

i want to show somebody the back end of my car for once.

2.2 coming in some distant future to a 914Club member near or not near YOU

Posted by: tat2dphreak Aug 25 2005, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 05:21 PM)

okay... my single carb does have a choke....and it works. I actually expected worse mpg from the 44s....20-25 is what i was used to getting from my old 2.0 setup....so honestly it wont be that bad. It is overkill for my 1.7 though. I need to pay some people back first, then i'll rebuild my 2.0 to like a 2.2 and go with some 44s.... rhodyguy, i don't need bread crumbs....I have AAA.

if you do it, buy Jake's kit... that way we don't have to hear 1000 questions about valvetrain geometry or whatever you decide not to read up about... it will all be slap-in and go for you...

Posted by: scotty b Aug 25 2005, 05:36 PM

QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 24 2005, 06:54 PM)

You know what pisses me off more than anything? I keep coming back to Britt's threads. It's like I can't believe I get sucked into the madness. I guess that makes me

It's like when you hear that song on the radio that you hate so much you want to BUT you keep listening to it, because you hate it so much it feels good It's like you feed off of the anger and rage and then you pull over and grab the first drunken bum you can find and just........... .................. ...................uh....nevermind. GO CARBS!!!!! Woo Hooo

Posted by: redshift Aug 25 2005, 05:40 PM

Phil a delphia free dom I luh huh huhv you... yesido..


M

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 05:44 PM

i'm on my own....again

Posted by: trekkor Aug 25 2005, 06:30 PM

I'll always help you if I can.

But, I'd say 95-98% of the board members haven't done any extensive air-fuel testing or dyno comparisons with various combo/jet settings or carbs vs. F.I., so most of us can't be trusted anyway...


Ooooooohhhh....

you take your chances.


KT

Posted by: grantsfo Aug 25 2005, 06:41 PM

All I know is the guys with carbs are on the roads running great while the aftermarket FI people never seem to have running cars. To me that says carbs are the easiest quickest way to a running car. And I can confirm that Albert C just bolted his dual carbs onto a stock 1.8 and his car is faster than my 1.8. He has same exuast headers and muffler as me as well.

Most of what you get here are opinions, not facts. So add my opinion to the lot.

Posted by: Mueller Aug 25 2005, 07:01 PM

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Aug 25 2005, 05:41 PM)

while the aftermarket FI people never seem to have running cars

Hey I resemble that remark

actually not anymore, my car is up and running with the aftermarket FI

...there are at least 6 914's running aftermarket FI (drivers) right now that I know of, sure the ratio is small, but give it time......

yes, carbs are easier since they can be tuned by ear much easier than FI can, but with the advent of lower cost WBO2 readers that should change...also, there are lot of people just "scared" of EFI, 1st from cost and the tech. side...it's not that bad....

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 07:05 PM

ya know what the sound that i hear sounds like? It sounds like somebody clanking together two or more clay chips....the poker ones.

i think its something bad, like a bad camshaft something....

Posted by: bondo Aug 25 2005, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 06:05 PM)

ya know what the sound that i hear sounds like? It sounds like somebody clanking together two or more clay chips....the poker ones. i think its something bad, like a bad camshaft something....

Did you just hijack your own thread?

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 07:17 PM

what thread? this is like a pool of words....

Posted by: trekkor Aug 25 2005, 07:29 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 24 2005, 09:19 AM)

i like the look of triple throat webers, but i have a /4..... just wondering if i'm making stuff up again... ignore this if you must

O.K. , then. Back on topic.

I like the look, too.
I run them on my SIX.

Buy a set for yourself, as they make them for FOURS.

IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE INSTALLING OR TUNING, WE'LL HELP YOU.

KT

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 07:33 PM

well i have to find parts to rebuild my 2.0

seems like my 1.7 is on the way out too...so i have to work pretty hard this semester...

Posted by: bondo Aug 25 2005, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 06:33 PM)

well i have to find parts to rebuild my 2.0 seems like my 1.7 is on the way out too...so i have to work pretty hard this semester...

Howsabout a chronological summary of your 914? I can't keep track of what's wrong with what, what you've done/not done, etc.

Posted by: SGB Aug 25 2005, 07:58 PM

the chip clicking just kinda developed? My car has made some really disturbing sounds that ultimately "went away" after I finally got the valves set properly, the slop out of the carb linkage, the timing down to recommended levels, the plugs/wires/distributor producing good consistant spark, and the exhaust studs secure.

basic auditory lessons learned-
(these are not certainties, but certainly possibilities)
accel sound is like UPS truck = carb linkage worn (applies to dual carbs only)
horiffic CLUNK during startup = timing too high
random but continueous miss-fire = worn dizzy
harley-davidson sound = tight intake valve
VW sound = loose exhaust.

In the course of correcting these things, at various times I was sure I had burned a valve, lost a valve guide, flat spotted the cam, and whatever else I read about. Don't panic. I'm thinking that your noise may be related to the carb, or some other change you have made recently.....

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 08:10 PM

yeah just kinda developed....


i have the clay-chip clicking only upon load or acceleration
and the loose valve VW sound....

Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 25 2005, 08:13 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:10 PM)

yeah just kinda developed.... i have the clay-chip clicking only upon load or acceleration and the loose valve VW sound....

hows your timing? pinging maybe?

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Aug 25 2005, 08:13 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Aug 25 2005, 07:10 PM) yeah just kinda developed.... i have the clay-chip clicking only upon load or acceleration and the loose valve VW sound.... hows your timing? pinging maybe?

see that's the thing, it happens no matter where the timing is....

i retarded the timing and its still doing it....

advanced and its doing it....

so i dont think its timing related....i definately dont think my coil helps though...so i'm going to get me a bosch blue tomorrow...

Posted by: scotty b Aug 26 2005, 05:45 PM

Just to dump some laquer thinner on this fire.... I feel that the carb vs. F.I. debate boils down to 2 things. Preference and knowledge. When one takes the time to understand F.I. it actually werks very well and is dependable. Carbs are just easier to throw in when you don't have the time/patience/knowledge to fix the F.I. Oh , and the carbs look ALOT better on the engine Yes on a modified car carbs are the way to go but I personally would like to see fuel injected throttle bodies. I know it is (was) available for T1's. Looks like dual carbs but has individual injectors at the base. Uber cool seems like it would be pretty simple to do. No????

Posted by: Rotary'14 Aug 26 2005, 06:01 PM

QUOTE

Yes on a modified car carbs are the way to go but I personally would like to see fuel injected throttle bodies. I know it is (was) available for T1's. Looks like dual carbs but has individual injectors at the base. Uber cool  seems like it would be pretty simple to do. No????

These throttle bodies will fit on IDF manifolds, and the linkage is the same.


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Posted by: ArtechnikA Aug 26 2005, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (scotty b @ Aug 26 2005, 07:45 PM)

...seems like it would be pretty simple to do. No????

that stuff is all pretty easy. at least, it's all been done for at least 40 years.
the hard part is matching fuel delivery and spark advance to the engine's requirements. IOW - tuning.

if you have a lot of identical engines (i.e. you are a factory making production cars) you tune one, flash those maps into the ECU's and you're done.

if you have a unique engine (and they're *all* a little different...) or you want that last 5% of performance, you get to tune spark and fuel to the engine in question under all possible operating regimes. which means you prety much have to operate it at all possible operating regimes. accel, decel, high temp, low temp, high altitude, hot restart, cruise...

practically, you determine some limits, make a "reasonable" number of data points, and interpolate, and then tweak as needed to correct any unusual resonant flat spots or peaks.

it's still a nontrivial engine characterisation program.

the MFI cars had individual space cams for 2,0 2,2 2,4 2,7 3,0 T, E, S, RS, Carrera and distributors to match each one - and they didn't even compensate for load (they did have thermostatic warmup and altitude aneroids tho...). space cams have a bunch of strange ridges and grooves that at first look like wear marks, but they're not - they're places where a particular throttle setting and rpm needed a little more or less fuel for broad, flat response.

Posted by: maf914 Aug 27 2005, 08:51 AM

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 25 2005, 03:40 PM)

Phil a delphia free dom I luh huh huhv you... yesido.. M

Yeah, Miles. That's one of those songs. Along with anything by Billy Joel.

Posted by: scotty b Aug 27 2005, 08:58 AM

QUOTE (maf914 @ Aug 27 2005, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 25 2005, 03:40 PM) Phil a delphia free dom I luh huh huhv you... yesido.. M Yeah, Miles. That's one of those songs. Along with anything by Billy Joel.

Ocassionally I will flip over to MTV2 to catch headbangers ball, and I will inadvertantly catch a Missy "misdemeanor" Elliot video. Drives me freaking NUTS but I can't change the channel. It's like a train wreck, "what the hell is going on? can it get any werse?.....YEP there it goes!" Now I TRY to find her videos just so I can get pissed off

Posted by: tyler Aug 30 2005, 12:58 PM

Not only do Webers come with 2 throats, they come in "pairs of pairs" so there's a throat for each cylinder.................


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Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 30 2005, 01:04 PM

QUOTE (tyler @ Aug 30 2005, 11:58 AM)

Not only do Webers come with 2 throats, they come in "pairs of pairs" so there's a throat for each cylinder.................

4 IDF's on what i assume to be a small block? great throttle response im sure


BTW - where in socal have you been hiding?

Posted by: Kargeek Aug 30 2005, 05:12 PM

I run carbs because when I built my car, there was no aftermarket fuel injection... Carb kits were inexpensive, look cool and are simple to tune.


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Posted by: tyler Aug 31 2005, 08:28 AM

SBC it is. I'm in San Clemente, spending my life building this conversion. Just finishing up the cooling system - 2 2400 CFM pusher fans that seem to be working - 1 automatic and 1 manual spare. I'll post some pics pretty soon.