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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 993 Pedal cluster with Hydralic Clutch
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 25 2005, 08:03 PM
Jason has one (not installed yet) for his Boxster conversion so of course I had to have one. 
Just want to know if this is another ground breaking project or if someone can pass on their experience...
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Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 25 2005, 08:06 PM
that has potential!! 
Posted by: TimT Aug 25 2005, 08:10 PM
we have installed them in older 911s, so the install in a 914 should be pretty straight forward. Might have to modify the hardline you will have to run down the tunnel though
Posted by: Aaron Cox Aug 25 2005, 08:11 PM
what do they cost????
Posted by: jonwatts Aug 25 2005, 08:12 PM
Wow, I'm really surprised at how much that looks like a regular 914 pedal cluster. Looks like a winner for a hyro clutch conversion. And it should work with any Boxster blingbling pedal covers.
Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 09:31 PM
that looks sweet!
so that master cylinder on the pedal cluster is for the clutch in the 993?
Posted by: RON S. Aug 26 2005, 05:07 AM
Felix,
This is old news,
I picked up a 964 unit a couple years ago from the Hershey swapmeet for about $50.00.
I thought at the time,it could be made to work.
When i got it home,I grafted the clutch master-cylinder end onto a 914 cluster body.
i had to make a new clutch actuation rod,and re-pin it to the pedal.
It works great.
The only downside I've seen is 1.It was a bitch to initially bleed,and get all the air out of the line.
2.The pedal doesn't come fully back.There's about 1/2" of pedal it starts to engage.I'll probably end up with some kind of return spring.
Other than that,it works and has a really good feel to it.
Ron
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Posted by: RON S. Aug 26 2005, 05:09 AM
Pic #2
I also had to re-locate my throttle cable!
Ron
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Posted by: RON S. Aug 26 2005, 05:10 AM
Last one,completed.
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Posted by: swl Aug 26 2005, 07:08 AM
What does the backend look like Ron?
Posted by: RON S. Aug 26 2005, 07:12 AM
| QUOTE (swl @ Aug 26 2005, 05:08 AM) |
| What does the backend look like Ron? |
Here's and old pic of the back.
Ron
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Posted by: turbo914v8 Aug 26 2005, 09:18 AM
Good day Felix.
Like Chris I wimped out and purchased the Tiltion 3 pedal set up. 
Posted by: swl Aug 26 2005, 11:52 AM
Thanks Ron. What does the plumbing look like at the clutch end?
Steve
Posted by: RON S. Aug 26 2005, 01:24 PM
Now we want the plumbing too.
Heres an old pic,I remade the slave cylinder mtg. bracket since the pic,Everything is real tight,and all work fine.
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Posted by: swl Aug 26 2005, 07:29 PM
Nice job. Thanks for the pics
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 26 2005, 10:17 PM
Thanks Ron, nice to know it will work...
I got my in the Bay for $122 and felt is was a good price as I've been looking for one for awhile. Jason is the king of deals, he paid less than $40 for his from a C2. Mine is from a '97 993 and has some differences from yours. Essentially they are the same...
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Posted by: ABC914 Aug 28 2005, 06:49 AM
Been there. Done that...
Not personally, but my 914. Boxster S transmission installed by pros. Including hydraulic pedal cluster.
Zillion headaches slowly overcome. 
Now car is great. 
Posted by: neo914-6 Aug 28 2005, 10:20 PM
Not personally, but my 914. Boxster S transmission installed by pros. Including hydraulic pedal cluster.
Zillion headaches slowly overcome.
Now car is great. 
Your conversion on the Pelican thread has brought up several times. Great job on likely being the first to use Boxster transaxle. Can you post more pics?
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 23 2006, 01:08 AM
Thanks Ron, nice to know it will work...
Mine is from a '97 993 and has some differences from yours. Essentially they are the same...
Comparing with Jasons completed 964/914 assembly I found the 993 hydro clutch will be very difficult or fab intensive to combine with the 914 brake section. We are still not sure the master will drive the Boxster slave cylinder either.
-The 993 brake pedal section is narrower than the 914 thus the clutch pedal shaft is shorter
-The clutch pedal shaft has a serrated end and clutch cyl. arm, nice for pedal angle adjustment
-The brake pedal tube are different diameters so I cannot use the 993 pedal shaft in the 914 brake pedal tube.
I am either in the market for a 964 pedal assembly to use the 914 brakes or an aftermarket like Tilton...
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Posted by: McMark Nov 23 2006, 02:01 AM
Hmmmmm..... 
Felix, how about a work day on Saturday, Dec 2? I'd like to take another look at the assembly. I have some new thoughts. I'd hate to drive down 1.5 hours to look at the pedals for 20 minutes. So maybe we can get some people to help do some work on the car as well.
Posted by: Brando Nov 23 2006, 11:22 AM
I like the way the 993 pedal cluster looks, and looks like it fits comfortably... How would you make something like that work with the stock gearbox to pull the release lever on the clutch though?
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 23 2006, 01:10 PM
I like the way the 993 pedal cluster looks, and looks like it fits comfortably... How would you make something like that work with the stock gearbox to pull the release lever on the clutch though?
I think Ron S's pics are for 915, but with 964 not 993 hydro clutch...
Posted by: Brando Nov 23 2006, 01:19 PM
I've been contemplating putting a generic hydraulic master cylinder behind the clutch pedal, giving it room to travel, then running a long line under the car, then to the back where i'd have a push slave cylinder (or a pull-type if I could find one...). Master and slave cylinders can be had inexpensively. It's just getting the part at the transmission to work correctly for a stock 914-901 gearbox that has me befuddled.
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 23 2006, 01:23 PM
Hmmmmm.....
Felix, how about a work day on Saturday, Dec 2? I'd like to take another look at the assembly. I have some new thoughts. I'd hate to drive down 1.5 hours to look at the pedals for 20 minutes. So maybe we can get some people to help do some work on the car as well.
Mark,
Sounds like a plan, let me check if there are any family plans...
I think the only way to make the 993 asm work is to cut off the pedal shaft serrated end off and machine and weld it to the 914 pedal shaft. I showed Mike the problems but we didn't really spend much time on it. I can give him the 993&914 parts next week and maybe you two can get together to come up with a better solution. The serrated parts are good for pedal angle adjustment. I could also buy a 964 cyl arm but may need to pay a premium at the dealer. If they are open tomorrow I may go ahead and price one.
Posted by: So.Cal.914 Nov 23 2006, 01:55 PM
I've been contemplating putting a generic hydraulic master cylinder behind the clutch pedal, giving it room to travel, then running a long line under the car, then to the back where i'd have a push slave cylinder (or a pull-type if I could find one...). Master and slave cylinders can be had inexpensively. It's just getting the part at the transmission to work correctly for a stock 914-901 gearbox that has me befuddled.
Here's one way.
Posted by: McMark Nov 23 2006, 02:19 PM
Felix, I'm thinking it might be possible to use without ANY 914 pedal parts. I have an idea... 
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 23 2006, 09:25 PM
Felix, I'm thinking it might be possible to use without ANY 914 pedal parts. I have an idea...
sounds interesting, this 964/914 morph maintains the stock 914 brake m/c. 993 has a very different brake set up.
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 24 2006, 04:26 AM
I've been contemplating putting a generic hydraulic master cylinder behind the clutch pedal, giving it room to travel, then running a long line under the car, then to the back where i'd have a push slave cylinder (or a pull-type if I could find one...). Master and slave cylinders can be had inexpensively. It's just getting the part at the transmission to work correctly for a stock 914-901 gearbox that has me befuddled.
Royce,
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=47229&hl= kit is exactly that and is proven. It is also priced equivalent to a new 3 pedal Tilton assembly...
Posted by: Larry Hubby Nov 24 2006, 10:50 PM
You can adapt the 944 hydraulic clutch master cylinder to the stock 914 pedal cluster without too much difficulty. You need to fabricate some parts, but it's nothing compared to what you've already done on the Neo 914-6. The master cylinder can be mounted under the steering rack, like the brake master cylinder (picture below). On the inside, the clutch pedal shaft needs to be lengthened because the master cylinder needs to be mounted further toward the passenger side to avoid the pressed channel in the floorpan that surrounds the center tunnel, and the lever arm needs to be lengthened to get the designed amount of stroke for the 944 parts (second picture). I made a new clutch pedal shaft and delrin spacer, but you could just make an extension piece that bolts or welds to the existing shaft, depending upon what you've got in there now. The photo also shows a couple of triangulating braces I added to try to eliminate any flexing in this area of the floorpan, but, after using the setup for ~ a year, I'm not so sure you really need to do this. The next pictures show what I used on the other end to convert the push action of the 944 slave cylinder to the pull required by the stock '78 911SC clutch throwout levers. The most important thing was to mount the slave cylinder so that the bleeder vent is higher than the rest of the cylinder. If you do this correctly, the system will bleed under gravity and have a nice firm pedal with no hassel. The 944 parts are relatively cheap and easily available, and this keeps the parts that might need replacement completely stock.
Posted by: Larry Hubby Nov 24 2006, 11:06 PM
Sorry! I'm new at this, and didn't get the pictures added correctly!
Here's the first one:
and the second:
and the ones showing the engine end:
From below the heat exchanger:
From the bottom:
and from above the heat exchanger:
Posted by: PRS914-6 Nov 24 2006, 11:31 PM
Nice clean work Larry! What did you do for the reservoir?
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 25 2006, 12:34 AM
Larry,
I should have clarified my car has a Boxster 5 speed with an integral clutch slave cyl. I liked the adaptation of Ron S's 964 clutch to 914 brake assembly because it is compact and mostly a bolt in solution (once the tunnel is trimmed). Your set up is very similar to the H&H solution. I won't post pics because they sell these kits. Unless MarkD's new idea is better, I'm leaning toward adapting the Boxster master cyl. since I know it will be matched to the slave already. It appears to be a top mounted pedal but I'll know more when I see it Tuesday...
Thanks for the input and 
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Posted by: Larry Hubby Nov 25 2006, 01:13 AM
Hi Felix,
I used the clutch reservoir from a 996 turbo, p/n 993.423.417.00. It's very small and used only for the clutch - the only Porsche one I could find that wasn't integral with the brake reservoir.
I should have remembered that you started with the Boxter trans (and that they have an integral slave cyl). Since they usually build in some mechanical advantage, you're definitely best off to stay with the designed parts. I had to e-mail the manufacturer in Germany to get the correct values for the reduction ratio (cyl diameters) and the master cylinder stroke on the 944 parts, and they didn't turn out to be nice even values. It looked like Porsche designed everything else first.
Good luck with your clutch project. The rest of the project is fabulous!
Larry
Posted by: Larry Hubby Nov 25 2006, 01:28 AM
...and sorry, Paul. The reply about the reservoir should have been addressed to you. Thanks for your comment.
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 25 2006, 01:29 AM
Thanks Larry, you're welcome to see it at the SJ Auto show in Jan. and I plan to drive it to many events once it's running. 
Who's your contact at the factory? Another member, Jason is also using the 964/914 asm but with a Boxster 6 speed and could use the ratio info. I'll certainly check out the 996 reservoir, where did you buy it?
Posted by: Larry Hubby Nov 25 2006, 10:17 PM
Felix,
I bought the reservoir new from Porsche, and it wasn't cheap. I can't remember how much, but I remember being grossed out by what they wanted for what's just basically a 2" diameter polyethylene bottle with a screw cap and a hole in the bottom. Maybe you could pick one up from one of the dismantlers for half price or so. Here's what it looks like in comparison to a standard Porsche dual brake reservoir:
I'll look up the correspondence I had with FTE Automotive, who is the OEM for FAG, when I get back to my office on Monday. If I recall correctly, they had a web site that gave quite a bit of technical info. If all you need is the cylinder diameters to compute the reduction ratio, I think this site would do the trick. I needed the designed stroke length also, and for that I just sent an e-mail to their customer service and got a reply in a couple of days with what I asked for. I'll post it here Monday.
Larry
Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 26 2006, 08:38 AM
Been there. Done that...
Not personally, but my 914. Boxster S transmission installed by pros. Including hydraulic pedal cluster.
Zillion headaches slowly overcome.
Now car is great. Do you have a picture of the left side of the transmission mounted in the car??? I would love to see how a starter was put on the transmission.
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 26 2006, 09:49 AM
Felix,
I bought the reservoir new from Porsche, and it wasn't cheap. I can't remember how much, but I remember being grossed out by what they wanted for what's just basically a 2" diameter polyethylene bottle with a screw cap and a hole in the bottom. Maybe you could pick one up from one of the dismantlers for half price or so. Here's what it looks like in comparison to a standard Porsche dual brake reservoir:
I'll look up the correspondence I had with FTE Automotive, who is the OEM for FAG, when I get back to my office on Monday. If I recall correctly, they had a web site that gave quite a bit of technical info. If all you need is the cylinder diameters to compute the reduction ratio, I think this site would do the trick. I needed the designed stroke length also, and for that I just sent an e-mail to their customer service and got a reply in a couple of days with what I asked for. I'll post it here Monday.
Larry
Larry,
After some eBay searches it looks similar to an early http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250052258850&rd=1&rd=1.
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Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 26 2006, 02:12 PM
Looks like I'll be borrowing Jason's assembly for now, nice that's it's a bolt in. 
I just need to add the reservoir and hose to the slave. I've read the Boxster uses a special "blue" hose...
Posted by: McMark Nov 26 2006, 08:15 PM
Felix, if your 993 setup is going to sit on the shelf, how about you drop it in a box and send it up my way (maybe via the Mueller Transport Service). I'll work out my ideas without the 1.5 hour commute. 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 26 2006, 08:21 PM
i like the stock look... (964) its sleeper...
but for all this work, check out howard R's racer from ozzie land.. and his tilton setup with a bias bar brake setup and a hydroclutch.
Posted by: Howard R Nov 27 2006, 01:02 AM
That was the conclusion I came to. It was easier to replace the lot rather than mess around adapting stuff. I think the cost worked cheaper to do it properly than with all the modifying, but i'm pretty well set up with equipent to do it. But maybe you don't need a proper balance bar setup to drive around the the streets. The throttle linkage took some thought (and messing around) to get right, but in the end was worth the trouble. I was after a balance bar, the hydraulic clutch was incidental, but now I have a clutch with a really short travel (but heavy) which is what I also wanted.
Posted by: Larry Hubby Nov 28 2006, 05:19 PM
Felix et al,
Here is the correspondence I had with FTE about getting technical info on Porsche clutch master and slave cylinders. Maybe this will be of use to some of you:
Dear Mr Hubby
Thank you for your below email.
I have discussed this matter with our technicians and found out the
following:
The maximum piston strokes are:
KG19074.1.1 = 34 mm
KN2393B1 = 21,6 mm -> and the clutch release path is 18,9 mm
Hope I was able to assist you.
Should you have further questions please let me know.
Kind regards
Christine Hammer
Teamleiterin Export / Sales Manager IAM
FTE automotive
_______________________________________
FTE automotive GmbH
Andreas-Humann-Str. 2
D-96106 Ebern
Tel.: +49 9531/81 3642
Fax: +49 9531/81 53642
http://www.fte.de
----- Weitergeleitet von Gabi Heinzel/EBN/FTE am 06.07.2005 07:16 -----
larry.hubby@hp.c
om An: Gabi.Heinzel@fte.de
Kopie:
05.07.2005 19:07 Thema: FTE-Kontaktformular
Nachricht gesendet am Tuesday, 05.07.2005 um 19:07:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Title : Herr
Surname : Hubby
First name: Larry
Street : 985 Harriet St
Postcode : 94301
City : Palo Alto, CA
Country : USA
Telephone : (650) 857-2259
eMail : larry.hubby@hp.com
----------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
I am using your part numbers KG19074.1.1 and KN2393D1 in an automotive hydraulic cluth application, but not the one for which it was originally designed. I need to know one additional piece of design information, the maximum stroke for the slave cylinder. I am using a stroke of about 21mm (measured from the neutral position at which the internal spring holds the piston, out to full extension) at present, and this seems to cause the rubber boot which seals around the slave shaft to protrude from the cylinder significantly. I am worried that I am in danger of pushing the piston out of the slave cylinder and causing the unit to fail. If this situation is normal (the protrusion) and the stroke is not excessive, I would like to know. Otherwise I can re-design the system to use less stroke but more pressure.
Posted by: neo914-6 Nov 28 2006, 09:12 PM
I want to try the 964 asm since it's available and I can go ahead and plumb a reservoir and line to clutch cyl as I will have to do anyway. Whether I adapt aftermarket or stock components, both require calculations and/or trial & error (R&D). I believe if I duplicate the Boxster/996 components, I can avoid some of it.
Chris Julian offered his experience with his Tilton after 8 iterations. Here's his formulas:
Hydraulic_clutch_input_to_output_spreadsheet_1_.xls ( 15k )
Number of downloads: 354
Posted by: Solana-Bob Nov 30 2006, 12:46 PM
I've been contemplating putting a generic hydraulic master cylinder behind the clutch pedal, giving it room to travel, then running a long line under the car, then to the back where i'd have a push slave cylinder (or a pull-type if I could find one...). Master and slave cylinders can be had inexpensively. It's just getting the part at the transmission to work correctly for a stock 914-901 gearbox that has me befuddled.
Here's one way.
Loved your quote from Word Jazz by Ken Nordine
"...we are a fluke of the Universe...".
I didnt know anyone else in the Universe knew that album.
I just recently added it to my digital library....30 years after ...
Posted by: pjhaun Dec 1 2006, 10:12 AM
Is it possible to use the brake fluid reservoir to feed the hydralic clutch?
Thank You!!!!
Phillip J. Haun
Oak Harbor, WA.
Posted by: Eric_Shea Dec 1 2006, 10:52 AM
WOW! Excellent thread Felix. Look at all the cool advice. That's what this club is about
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