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Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 25 2005, 08:21 PM

why would I want them?

Posted by: bondo Aug 25 2005, 08:25 PM

Louder? Less axial thrusting? (that sounds naughty)

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 08:44 PM

i think that M3 with straight cut tranny gears was crazy awesome....

the sound was pretty

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 08:45 PM

why do you ask, does somebody make them for the t4?

Posted by: J P Stein Aug 25 2005, 08:54 PM

Bad: Noisy
Gud: cover up the tractor like exhaust note

Posted by: Brando Aug 25 2005, 09:51 PM

Les axial thrust (was mentioned). I think it takes less power for the motor to turn the cam with straight cut gears? I dunno...

Posted by: Britain Smith Aug 25 2005, 10:10 PM

They make them, I got them.

-Britain

Posted by: Britain Smith Aug 25 2005, 10:11 PM

Another.

Posted by: bd1308 Aug 25 2005, 10:15 PM

cool....

i believe the difference is that instead of having the force being both in a rotational fashion, there is also a bit of horizontal force applied as well....and with straight cut gears, that eliminates the horizontal force, maximizig the rotational force....

^ ---->
|
--> vs.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 26 2005, 01:46 PM

are they good in a daily driver or is stock better for commuter cars?

Posted by: Tom Perso Aug 26 2005, 01:51 PM

No need in a daily driver. You really only need them with HUGE spring pressures since it puts a load on the camshaft itself, which then in turn puts a negative rotational force (not sure if I'm saying that correctly) on the camshaft. With the bevel cut gears, the cam wants to "walk" out of it's place and put extra side loads on the bearing faces.

With that said, straight cut gears are noisy and people will think you have a S/C on your "tractor motor"

If you don't mind the sound (I do) go 'fer it. But, no real reason to.

Tom

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 26 2005, 02:45 PM

Most are pure junk... Put them in a lathe with a teflon foot on the bottom of a dial indicator and you'll see what junk really is.... I use them in 2% of my engines, only full race engines wehere every 10/th of 1HP is needed.

I have a decent set i sell in the store for 155.00, they are made in Turkey and are decent quality, BUT they make using my favorite oil pump a true PIA...

Stick with helical gears, the TIV doesn't need bullshit to make it work..

I have been fighting with "Performance TIV parts" all week and have logged 70 hours of labor since Monday on the same engine because of bullshit parts- this one has no room for error..... Hell after 70 hours the shortblock isn't even assembled yet!!!!!!!!!

(I spent Tuesday and Wednesday doing nothing but measuring)

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 26 2005, 04:00 PM

yup. wash, scrub, clean then measure measure measure, test fit, torque, break it down and repeat

after taking apart a few motors, I am amazed at what I have seen that actually ran. I know most guys just slap it together

I like the measuring and pre-fitting. its the parts cleaning I could do wihtout. I wish I had a jet wash and a hot tank

these gears are true(.00025 Starrett baby!) but I think I will stay with teh stock VW gears

Posted by: lapuwali Aug 26 2005, 04:12 PM

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ Aug 26 2005, 11:46 AM)

are they good in a daily driver or is stock better for commuter cars?

No good in a daily car, or even a weekender. They're WAY loud, and can often completely dominate the engine note. Depending on the exact gears, you either get an irritating ringing sound, or a loud whine that often sounds like you're driving a executive jet or something.

Honda used them in some street motorcycles, but they developed a clever "scissor" arrangment of two gears side-by-side, sprung loaded to take up the lash between teeth. This quiets them down some w/o the side-loading cause by helical gears.

Posted by: Rgreen914 Aug 26 2005, 05:35 PM

Interesting topic; October Car Craft has an article called "Cam-drive Comparo". In it, they compare a Comp Cams' adjustable timing set, a Milodon fixed-idler geardrive, a Cat dual-idler geardrive and a Jesel beltdrive; each of them installed in a MoPar 440. Peak dyno hp readings varied less than 4 hp (633.0-636.3); average hp readings varied 1hp (510.7-511.7). Peak torque readings varied similarily (594.2-596.3) with average torque readings following suit (551.9-552.1). Not enough difference between them to merit one system over the others, unless cost is a consideration; if you are running a V8 and like to alter the cam timing, then the Jesel belt drive would probably win out. But on a strictly street driven car...this system would not cut it and your wallet would thank you!

Ron

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 26 2005, 06:15 PM

QUOTE

Interesting topic; October Car Craft has an article called "Cam-drive Comparo". In it, they compare a Comp Cams' adjustable timing set, a Milodon fixed-idler geardrive, a Cat dual-idler geardrive and a Jesel beltdrive; each of them installed in a MoPar 440

Let me guess who has the biggest ad in the mag....

Magazines are worthless to base TRUE comparisons without bias..

I have had a magazine say they would not publish my independant test results of products "because it might upset their advertisers"..

Those big ads are 1-5K+ bucks per month- magaines are filled with worthless political pukes that want shit for their own car for free.... If you give it to them they'll lick your balls, if not you can have the best product on the planet and not get a DAMN thing in "INK".... Hell they won't even feature a car that has my engine sometimes, even if its a bad ass ride because I don't kiss their asses.

Ever seen an article on Nickies?? How about our Ceramic lifters??Best fucking products to EVER be developed for these engines (and the TI) but you won't see the articles because Charles is like me and don't kiss the asses of the magazine pricks that are as political as damn capital hill.. (I can't stand the bastards)

Now-- I will say that Excellence is the ONLY mag that I have come into contact with that DOES NOT work this way... If they want your product they pay you full price for it....

I'll bet you 50 bucks that test wasn't "Fair and balanced".

Posted by: Rgreen914 Aug 26 2005, 06:45 PM

Whoa, Jake...lighten up! I was just quoting what I read! Comp Cams has two half-page ads in this issue; I've run their stuff in different Chevies and I felt I got a good return for my money on each occasion (drag racers seem to love their products). Could not find an ad in this issue for either Milodon or Cat, although Milodon has been around a long time. As for the Jesel(s), they also had no ad in this issue that I could find. I have had no personal experience with any of these other manufacturers' products, so I can't give any endorsements but most of Milodon's and Jesel's stuff is aimed at the hard-core racer and the fact that they're still in business must say something for their products. Besides, it seems to me that the differences between all the cam drive products appears to be negligible, with no clear cut winner.

Ron

Posted by: qa1142 Aug 26 2005, 06:52 PM

I think Jake needs to get laid!

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 26 2005, 07:01 PM

Yeah-
90 hours logged since Monday and the weekend looks like two more days of the same joy- all fighting ONE engine. Yeah I'm in one hell of a mood.

Well, its just a sore spot with me, something that magazine readers would never guess until they tried to fill someones shoes like mine...

I was just trying to state that people should realize that the advertisers keep the mags in business, not the sell of the mag its self....... They'll do ANYTHING to sell a mag.

Anyway- getting back on topic...

Even the straight cuts that I sell are kinda questionable.. The best set in the planet cost 450.00 at my cost and even they are crappy and need work...

Unless your engine HAS to make 100HP+ PER LITER stick with the helical gears... Hell my 3 liter don't even have them, and don't need them...

Posted by: d914 Aug 26 2005, 08:35 PM

hey jake, you really got to break out of that shell and learn to have an opinion

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 26 2005, 08:43 PM

I don't see that one happening anytime soon- Being a professional asshole is a delightful position to have!

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Aug 26 2005, 09:06 PM

asshole or not, I agree. I have seen some "car of the year" awards that just didnt make sense...but I am sure they made dollars for teh magazine in wich they were displayed. I.E. H-1 Hummer? SUV of teh year? Have you ever looked under that thing? its a blazer with a live axle rear. I think Le Car was car of teh year. so was teh Alliance

Money talks.

Posted by: V6914 Aug 27 2005, 12:40 AM

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 26 2005, 02:12 PM)

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ Aug 26 2005, 11:46 AM) are they good in a daily driver or is stock better for commuter cars? No good in a daily car, or even a weekender. They're WAY loud, and can often completely dominate the engine note. Depending on the exact gears, you either get an irritating ringing sound, or a loud whine that often sounds like you're driving a executive jet or something. Honda used them in some street motorcycles, but they developed a clever "scissor" arrangment of two gears side-by-side, sprung loaded to take up the lash between teeth. This quiets them down some w/o the side-loading cause by helical gears.

[QUOTE]No good in a daily car, or even a weekender. They're WAY loud, and can often completely dominate the engine note.

I, run strait cuts, daily driver, 1,000 - 1,500 miles a week. Loud? Hell Yes.

Why? I'am running alot of spring pressure, (SBC springs), the cam, lifters and springs are a proven combination, one thing about the springs, they will never let the valves float, miss shift or otherwise. This combo is what I'll use for my .600" lift cam.

Posted by: V6914 Aug 27 2005, 10:18 PM

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Aug 25 2005, 08:10 PM)

They make them, I got them. -Britain

Britain, what cam you running, springs and what bore & stroke? And I see you had your crank dowled.

Posted by: Britain Smith Aug 27 2005, 11:32 PM

The motor is 78 stroke and 98 bore, making is a 2353cc. It is running a custom grind cam from Jake that was designed with the flow rates, turbo charging, Pauter rockers, etc. in mind. I am not sure of the specific specs, but I know that it is a split duration between intake and exhaust.

-Britain

Posted by: Brett W Aug 27 2005, 11:39 PM

QUOTE

I am not sure of the specific specs, but I know that it is a split duration between intake and exhaust.

Then how do you know if it is installed right?

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 27 2005, 11:59 PM

He got a cam card....

Posted by: Brett W Aug 28 2005, 10:17 AM

Without a degree wheel how will he know if the cam is installed advanced, retarded etc?

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 28 2005, 11:40 AM

I guess he'll just stab it and go! I don't know what advance/retard washers he used when it was assembled..... I'd personally run this cam straight up as long as it degreed correctly.

Most DIY guys just don't understand degreeing in a cam- that can really bite you in the ass though!

BTW- I have seen one more web cam be out like the one you got. I put every cam in the cam doctor and found one on a 114 L/C that should have been on a 108- it was the cam for the Super 2 Liter- it degreed in perfectly after I had them repair the issue.

Posted by: 9146986 Aug 28 2005, 01:53 PM

QUOTE (] I have seen some "car of the year" awards that just didnt make sense [/QUOTE)

Carefull!  914 was MotorTrend's  1970 "Import Car of the Year" [QUOTE=]Even the straight cuts that I sell are kinda questionable.. The best set in the planet cost 450.00 at my cost and even they are crappy and need work... Unless your engine HAS to make 100HP+ PER LITER stick with the helical gears... Hell my 3 liter don't even have them, and don't need them...

Yet another product dumped on the market from pure advertising! A solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

Just cause somebody makes it, and somebody else sells it, and some PR guy that's never had a wrench in his hand in his life comes up with a BS rap that sounds plauseable, IT STILL DOESN'T MAKE IT A GOTTA HAVE PIECE!

Posted by: Britain Smith Aug 28 2005, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 28 2005, 10:40 AM)

I guess he'll just stab it and go! I don't know what advance/retard washers he used when it was assembled..... I'd personally run this cam straight up as long as it degreed correctly. Most DIY guys just don't understand degreeing in a cam- that can really bite you in the ass though! BTW- I have seen one more web cam be out like the one you got. I put every cam in the cam doctor and found one on a 114 L/C that should have been on a 108- it was the cam for the Super 2 Liter- it degreed in perfectly after I had them repair the issue.

I installed that cam using the zero degree washers. I have a conceptual understanding of degree'ing the cam, but I have never had any experience playing with it.

-Britain

Posted by: 9146986 Aug 28 2005, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Britain Smith @ Aug 28 2005, 01:44 PM)

I have a conceptual understanding of degree'ing the cam, but I have never had any experience playing with it.

that could get spendy!

Posted by: Brett W Aug 28 2005, 08:48 PM

Its not just a Web problem. I think it is me. Everytime I do some custom stuff I have to keep going back and forth to get the manufacture to get it right. I must be the only person on the planet that won't put my name and reputation on garbage.

Most people can get by with just pokin' the cam in and hopin' it is right. You do what lets you sleep at night.

Posted by: Jake Raby Aug 28 2005, 08:53 PM

QUOTE

I must be the only person on the planet that won't put my name and reputation on garbage.

Nope two of us!

I get lucky a lot of times... I honestly think that sometimes when guys off the street order somet things they get "Whatever"....

Web knows that I'm gonna throw every cam on the Doctor and degree them all in when I build an engine so *maybe* things are more checked out... Also I only buy TWO cams off their shelf- all the rest are custom so they have to be made...

Luck sometimes runs out- Like it has for me with this FP engine... Its together and rewady for the dyno in the morning, but EVERY part of it has haunted me.... over 125 hours in the past 7 solid days of fiddling with it.........

Its gonna be another all nighter just to get it up on the dyno and hook the logger to it and crank for oil pressure...

Posted by: Brett W Aug 28 2005, 09:22 PM

Good luck.

Posted by: gothspeed Apr 23 2018, 05:16 PM

I know this thread is over a decade old .... back then peeps thought available straight cut cam gears were not good quality. I figured I would ask if this 'situation' has changed since then.

Is anyone running straight cut cam gears now?

This vid shows a VW type 4 with straight cut gears. I think it sounds pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEF-5QtVWqM

Posted by: rdauenhauer Apr 23 2018, 06:55 PM

I agree. But I am biased since Im hooked on the sound of the gear driven cams & .5 v8 rumble from my VFR!

Posted by: Mueller Apr 23 2018, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(gothspeed @ Apr 23 2018, 04:16 PM)

I know this thread is over a decade old .... back then peeps thought available straight cut cam gears were not good quality. I figured I would ask if this 'situation' has changed since then.

Is anyone running straight cut cam gears now?

This vid shows a VW type 4 with straight cut gears. I think it sounds pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEF-5QtVWqM

Posted by: Mark Garriott Apr 23 2018, 10:48 PM

QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Apr 23 2018, 05:55 PM)

Posted by: pt_700 Apr 24 2018, 12:35 PM

QUOTE(Mark Garriott @ Apr 23 2018, 09:48 PM)

QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Apr 23 2018, 05:55 PM)

I agree. But I am biased since Im hooked on the sound of the gear driven cams & .5 v8 rumble from my VFR!

I miss my '90 VFR so tremendously. Stock headers with a slip on. Revving up through 5,000 RPM and beyond -- words fail me...

Posted by: gothspeed Apr 24 2018, 05:45 PM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Apr 23 2018, 08:14 PM)

QUOTE(gothspeed @ Apr 23 2018, 04:16 PM)

I know this thread is over a decade old .... back then peeps thought available straight cut cam gears were not good quality. I figured I would ask if this 'situation' has changed since then.

Is anyone running straight cut cam gears now?

This vid shows a VW type 4 with straight cut gears. I think it sounds pretty good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEF-5QtVWqM

^ I like it, almost has a /6 motor sound. I think those long chains on the /6 make up some of the "noise" that we love.