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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Dry Sump Set-up

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 23 2005, 10:55 AM

I have this thought of converting my turbo type-4 motor to dry sump due to ground clearence with the deep sump and the return line for the turbo, etc. Can someone give me a run down of everything I need to know to convert a type-4 motor to dry sump? What parts are required, how much do they cost, where does all the plumbing go, etc. I know that many feel that these motors don't benefit from a dry sump system, but that is beyond the point in this application.

-Britain

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 23 2005, 03:15 PM

Anybody? Anything?

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Sep 23 2005, 03:18 PM

here's a great source of proven parts.. at pretty well the best pricing..
Sumps and Pumps...

http://www.colemanracing.com/

Posted by: synthesisdv Sep 23 2005, 03:20 PM

The racers at the runoffs know the most about this setup.

Jake was working on a kit for this. I think it involves a 2 stage oil pump, oil tank, lines, etc.

Think racer chris has a pretty elaborate dry sump system with multiple scavenge pumps.

Regarding the deep sumps, almost every 912,356,914 I have seen has one hanging down. Looks scary but not as big a deal as you might think.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 23 2005, 03:28 PM

the new Z06 uses a dry sump oil system, might be the 1st street Chevy to do so

I cannot think of any negatives except the price (pumps start at about 300 for a single stage and go up a $100 per stage it seems) and how to drive it...for your application, the belt drive would be much easier than on a standard /4 motor due to the fan housing....

all /6's except for the new 996 and Boxsters use dry sumps and if I am correct, the twin-turbos and GT3s use a dry sump system as well...

Posted by: synthesisdv Sep 23 2005, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Sep 23 2005, 04:28 PM)
I cannot think of any negatives except the price (pumps start at about 300 for a single stage and go up a $100 per stage it seems) and how to drive it...for your application, the belt drive would be much easier than on a standard /4 motor due to the fan housing....

its probably an extra 40 or 50 pounds.

the pumps I have seen on TIV's looked like extended units in the normal location.

think the drag racers have done it the most with TIV

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 23 2005, 03:39 PM

John rogers used to have a dry sump type IV racer...

he would know

Posted by: synthesisdv Sep 23 2005, 03:40 PM

check out these from autocraft...

http://www.autocraftengines.com/oil.htm

cost big $$$$

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Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 23 2005, 03:43 PM

what are the various stages for?

2 stage - one scavenges and one pumps pressure into the case? right?
3 stage???

Posted by: Mueller Sep 23 2005, 03:43 PM

these seem to be a better deal if you can do a group purchase (min 2):

http://www.manguspumps.com/sportsman.shtml

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 23 2005, 03:48 PM

Here is my problem...and the car will be lowever a good 3-4 inches farther.

-Britain

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Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 23 2005, 03:49 PM

It sure does look cool though...

-Britain

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Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 23 2005, 03:50 PM

another...

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Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 23 2005, 03:51 PM

bolt in engine cradle?

maybe raise it up? or fab some tubes on the cradle to run under the deeeeep sump?

Posted by: Root_Werks Sep 23 2005, 04:00 PM

A 912 is basically a 911, shoot, just go get a 911 oil tank ect... Easy.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 23 2005, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Sep 23 2005, 03:00 PM)
A 912 is basically a 911, shoot, just go get a 911 oil tank ect... Easy.

tank is the easiest part.

plumbing a front oil cooler???

Posted by: ArtechnikA Sep 23 2005, 04:13 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Sep 23 2005, 05:43 PM)
3 stage???

one stage to scavenge the turbo oil...

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 23 2005, 04:13 PM

Yea, I have thought about the 911 tank. I also already have a front mounted fender oil cooler with Carrera fan.

How do you set-up a dry sump system? Where do you put the lines?

-Britain

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Posted by: Andyrew Sep 23 2005, 05:45 PM

What are the advantages of a dry sump? like say for a sbc?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 23 2005, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 23 2005, 04:45 PM)
What are the advantages of a dry sump? like say for a sbc?

nascars are dry sumped....

Posted by: Dave_Darling Sep 23 2005, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 23 2005, 03:45 PM)
What are the advantages of a dry sump? like say for a sbc?

You can build the entire engine lower down, and reduce the CG of the motor. Not much of a factor for an engine that's already designed as a wet-sump engine, but you can at least cut down the height of the oil pan. Most importantly, you won't starve the engine for oil no matter what kind of G-loadings you put on the car. Not for a while, at any rate.

The stock four-banger can relatively easily have the oil slosh away from the oil pickup. If this happens in a dry-sumped motor, the oil tank keeps supplying oil to the pressure pump until the tank is pumped dry. Which hopefully will take a while! When the G-loadings ease, the oil pickup scavenges the sump and dumps the oil into the tank.

--DD

Posted by: ArtechnikA Sep 23 2005, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Sep 23 2005, 07:45 PM)
What are the advantages of a dry sump? like say for a sbc?

1) keeps oil away from the crankshaft, which sucks HP while beating the oil into a froth at high rpm.
2) multiple scavenge pickups mean oil is collected and returned to the tank under any combination of accelleration, cornering, and braking.
3) since the pressure pump is fed from the tank, not the sump, if a pickup is unported due to high accelleration, it does not cause instant loss of oil pressure. this is especially important at tracks with long corners, where all the oil can pile up at one side of the sump.
4) since the reservoir is remote, you don't need a deep sump to hold all the oil, and the engine can be lowered to improve cg.

those are the biggies.

Posted by: Evill Ed Sep 23 2005, 07:53 PM

Britain, let's start at the tank, you will have a large line that gravity feeds the pump on the pressure side. The pressurized oil will flow through all the oil gallies or galleries in the case. The number of stages refers to the pressure side and the number of scavenge sides. So 1 pressure and 1 return (scavenge) is a 2 stage pump, 1 pressure and 2 returns is a 3 stage etc.

The scavenge sides suck oil from the engine. I would use a 3 stage on your engine. 1 scavenge on the sump, on the oil drain plate and 1 for the turbo drain.

You will have a return line as well, this returns oil to the tank. Typically you would want to have an oil filter and thermostat on the return line. Run the line from the thermostat out to your external oil cooler and then back into your oil tank.

You can use a 911 oil tank or an aftermarket type. You can run the oil lines up the rockers just like on a 911. You make even want to use 911 hard oil lines and thermostat on your project, it will fit the body easier.

Here is a picture and an link for multi stage dry sump set ups. Autocraft makes nice pumps for VW applications.

Ed

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question331.htm&url=http://www.razorperformance.com/info.htm

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