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Posted by: spyder9014 Feb 9 2003, 02:14 PM

What are the benefits of using 911/930 front suspension on a 914.
I have installed gas shocks, turbo tie rods but I have seen it recommended to use the 930 front suspension. Is this just to get the brakes or is this for struts/brakes/torsion bars?
If I upgrade the calipers and rotors will it be just as good as a complete swap?

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 9 2003, 02:51 PM

Most guys do the 9eleben front end to get bigger brakes/vented rotors and 5 bolt wheels.
You can do strut only....which bolts to the 914 A arms (73 & later). You can use 911 A arms, which gives a wider selection of torsion bars. You can also use the aluminum
rack support from the 911...it all bolts in.

Caliper selection is very limited for the 914 struts. The caliper mount spacing is 3 inches. The 911 strut to caliper mounting is 3.5 in.

Posted by: Jeroen Feb 9 2003, 08:32 PM

Early 911 struts have 3" caliper mount spacing as well

And I believe you can get torsionbars for the 914 a-arms up to 23mm

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: Mueller Feb 9 2003, 10:52 PM

IMHO.....swapping over to the 930 front end and parts are really only for very serious big track guys or for bragging rights

One positive of the the 930 front hubs is that the track is two inches wider due to the hub being of a different design....this way for guys running GT flares and 15x7 or 16x7 rims you can bring the wheel further out to increase the track and fill up the fender well without using spacers.

For your average Joe, regular 911 front suspension will be fine...if you want a little more, then get an SC or Carrera suspension...both of these also give you the option to easily upgrade to Big Reds or Monoblocks.

Posted by: pnewman Mar 4 2006, 07:20 PM

what size torsion bars come in oem 911 a arms? 21 mm?
thanks

Posted by: brant Mar 4 2006, 07:41 PM

19mm

Posted by: pnewman Mar 4 2006, 09:04 PM

question: I have 180 lb rear coil springs, rear oem sway bar, front oem sway bar, and am converting to 911 struts (I was told that the struts were out of a 1988 no a arms included.)

What size front torsion springs should I go with 21mm?

I think that I swapt out my oem's w/ a pair of used 18 or 19 mms about 6 yrs ago. Just trying to get a good balance. Were oem torsion springs for all 911's incl. 1988 19mm?

thanks, Pete

Posted by: Spoke Mar 4 2006, 10:37 PM

I converted my 71 914 to 911 a-arms, torsion bars, aluminum crossmember mainly for the sway bar which fits right onto the a-arms without drop links. This configuration really stabilized body roll and firmed up the ride.

For my 74, I'm going with a complete front end from an 88 Carrera including the struts, calipers, and vented rotors, 5-lug hub, aluminum crossmember, a-arms, torsion bars, and I may even use the steering rack.

Spoke


Attached image(s)

Posted by: brant Mar 4 2006, 10:39 PM

All 911's were 19mm
in fact its not even really a full 19mm
its actually like 18.8 or something (while the 914 bars are 17.9mm)

if you are not using the 911 A-arms then that means you are still using the 914 A-arms and thus the 18's (for example if your just changing struts)

I imagine some of the really special 911's might have come with bigger bars, the turbo's might have ? but otherwise all 911's were 19mm from 1965 until 1989

brant

Posted by: army dude Mar 4 2006, 10:49 PM

OK Spoke, ya got me!! You are telling me that everything frontend wise from the 88 Carrera will BOLT IN????? Everything? Bolt in? HUH??

So for my 74 with a v8 I could ,in effect, go to junk yard, or someone else ,get this suspension and have it done for a weekend project??

Confused in Iraq

Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 4 2006, 10:59 PM

i concur with brant...

Posted by: Dr. Roger Mar 4 2006, 11:00 PM

QUOTE

OK Spoke, ya got me!! You are telling me that everything frontend wise from the 88 Carrera will BOLT IN????? Everything? Bolt in? HUH??

yes. =-)

\see my progress thread on th elast few entires. same deal. '74 even. =-)

Posted by: Dr. Roger Mar 4 2006, 11:06 PM

prolly swap in some new brake lines while it's apart. =-)

Posted by: brant Mar 5 2006, 09:24 AM

Pete,

19mm would be a good match for 180 rear springs.
measure what you already have.

if you in fact have 17.9 then consider upgrading to 911 A-arms and T-bars while you are there...

but even if you have the stock 17.9's then that is not bad with the 180's either.

brant

Posted by: pnewman Mar 5 2006, 10:00 AM

Brant,

Thanks for the advise on the 911 a arms.
What other benefit is there for going w/ 911 a arms w/ their stock 19 mm t bars

vs.

going w/ (let's say) 21 mm t bars for the oem 914 a arms?


note: I have compiled through hull sway bar assembly w/ all new bushings and hardware so I am not necessarilly looking to use an under body sway bar, although it seems easier to install.

I have not yet removed any of my front end yet and my used front "1988 strut assemblies" come this week. I don't plan on getting to this part of the project for atleast month or two so I have time.

thanks, pete

Posted by: brant Mar 5 2006, 10:34 AM

ok...
I'll take a crack at this.
bunch of random thoughts here"

911 A-arms offer no benefit in geometry or anything like that.
they are splined different (for 911 bars) and there may be a tiny bit more selection in bars of that spline.

overall, with either style of A-arm a through body anti-sway bar is going to give you better geometry than an underbody style. In fact for an all out track car you would really want to convert the late 911 A-arms to the through body style.

both style's used early ball joints prior to 72 and late ball joints post 72. Late ball joints are theoretically better, although you don't really hear of many failure with the early style either.

a 19mm torsion bar is a NICE spring rate for a street car and even track cars. A 21mm might be a tiny bit too stiff for 180lb springs, but if you have it then go ahead and give it a try.. (it shouldn't be too far off)

if I were in your shoes I would base my decision upon suspension bushing condition. if your 914 a-arm has already been upgraded or had bushings replaced that is not something you would want to have to repeat on the 911 style.

on the other hand, if the 911 style was cheap enough and had really good bushings in it (used) and your 914 ones were shot... then I would consider switching over.

brant

Posted by: pnewman Mar 5 2006, 12:04 PM

Brant,

thanks for the info!

I think that you have given me the info that I needed to make my decisions.

I will be inspecting and measuring my stuff over the next couple of weeks.

I cannot stress enough how appreciated your input is.

Pete

Posted by: pnewman Mar 25 2006, 08:28 PM

Brant,

Final front end suspension.

1988 struts

New pads, bearings, seals, and flex hoses

New Zimmerman cross drilled rotors. I am painting the rotor hats red.

1988 calipers rebuilt and painted red

koni adjustable red inserts new

197? 911 a arms w/ the old through body tabs for my oem through body sway bar.
- My car didn't come with one thus I will be installing that too.
- I kept the bushings and front and rear brackets from the 88' 911 a-arms as they were in much better shape. I don't like the poly or bronze? bushings as I personally find them to loud as far as transfering vibration.

I have 2 different through body sway bars one oem diameter and another a monster.

my old 74' 914 cross bar in great shape.

turbo tie rods

bump steer kit

all rusty old parts have been dropped off for bead blasting and powder coating in gloss black.

I will post pics when all is assembled.

Pete

Posted by: brant Mar 25 2006, 09:33 PM

sounds like you've worked your butt off...
thats a ton of work.

would love to see the pics when you get to it.

brant

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 25 2006, 10:14 PM

Bolt on Army Dude, Bolt on.

Posted by: pnewman Mar 26 2006, 12:07 AM

Hey Eric!

I pressed in your hubs. They are ready to be put in as soon as the tub is ready that is. I got new koni reds for the back too. I also just ordered 140 lbs rear coils the other day per your advise. All should be assembled this summer.

thanks for the good work w/ the odd studs and all.

Oh and yes! i AGREE!

BOLT IT ON AND GOOOOOOOO!

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 26 2006, 12:50 AM

Glad everything is working out...

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 26 2006, 01:25 AM

When I bought my car back in 1989, the common wisdom to 914 suspension upgrades was to bolt on a 911 front suspension. So I bought a 911SC front suspension and bolted it to my car. The car was OK...not great, but OK.

A couple of years back, I met Rich Johnson and he provided a completely different wisdom about 914 front suspension. Rich indicated that the 911 front struts are not the best option for a 914 because you can only install inserts that are designed for 911 chassis dynamics. For example, a 911SC or late Carrera weight about 3000 pounds and has a very heavy rear end. True, for an additional cost, both Bilstein and Koni provide custom valving on their inserts to make it workable. Using these struts, however, you cannot buy off-the-shelf inserts that would be ideal for the 914 chassis dynamics.

The solution is therefore to use 914 OE struts and modify them with 3.5" spacing ears for the bigger brakes and install the necessary hardware to convert to 5 bolts wheels and 911 vented rotors. Using such modified struts you can therefore take advantage of the bigger and vented 911 brakes, use 5-bolt wheels and use off-the-shelf inserts (i.e. Bilstein or Koni) designed specifically for the 914 chassis dynamics.

Additionally, it is most likely that if these upgrades are performed on the front suspension, the rear suspension will also be modified. The performance rear suspension shocks available (i.e. Bilstein or Koni) are also designed to work in conjunction with the off-the-shelf inserts for the 914. That is, using front 911 inserts with rear 914 shocks results in a mismatch of suspension components. However, using 914 front inserts with 914 rear shocks you get components that were designed to work together in the 914 chassis.

Rich´s suspension wisdom made a lot of sense to me. Therefore, I traded my 911SC front struts for a set of modified 914 struts. The modifications inlude 3.5" spacing ears, and a raised (by 15mm from stock) spindler to lower the car. By the way, 15mm is the maximum allowable displacement on the spindler so the suspension fit perfectly inside my 15" five bolts Fuchs...you can do 17mm if using 16" wheels. I transferred all the hardware from my 911SC struts to the modified struts. These parts provided the five bolts conversion and the ability to install crossdrilled/slotted/vented 911 rotors. The 3.5" spacing ears on the struts allowed me to install 911S alloy calipers for a reduction of weight. Finally, I installed 914 adjustable yellow Konis on all four corners.

The car is no longer OK...it is great.

Did I make the right choice? I believe I did...

Which wisdom is the correct one? Do not use parts that were specifically designed to improve the handling of a 911 on your 914...

Posted by: Dr. Roger Mar 26 2006, 01:40 AM

it's true. my new 911 front suspension is way stiffer than my old 914 suspension. it' didn't need to be any stiffer..... it was just right before. now i'm kinda worried.... time on the road will tell...

Posted by: Andyrew Mar 26 2006, 05:47 AM

Rogger, you need some stiff rear suspension.. What are you going to use?

I needed 225lbs just to get by with a stock sway bar.. I got 275 a big bar up front, and I like control over oversteer without using my right foot.

Posted by: shoguneagle Mar 26 2006, 07:42 AM

This is a good thread and it is nice to read about Rich Johnson's knowledge regarding the 914 front end. When I build my 914-8, I used both the 914 front and the 911 front. The 914 front had 22mm torsion bars and 22mm Weltmeister sway bar; rear 180-200# Koni adjustable Gas with adjustable perch and no sway bar. Thus, I converted the entire front end to 911 with 19mm torsion bars and the 22mm Weltmeister sway bar. Through the body sway bar is the only way to go whether street or race; none in the rear if you do not have a posi- or locked rear.

Which was better? I kinda liked the 914 modified front, especially Rich Johnson's dropped front spindle and 3.5 conversion. The changes I went through above probably proved either is go for the street; racing I do not know since I do not race.

I am currently building a 914-6GT/916 Replica and I will use the 911 front end for a short time to get the entire car put together and running. Once I start tearing it apart for painting and modifications, I will probably go with Rich Johnson's mods to the 914 front. Somehow I like 22mm torsion bars since I seem to get a better feel for the road while driving the curves.

Thread has been most informative making sure I am thinking right.

Thanks
Steve Hurt

Posted by: michel richard Mar 26 2006, 08:01 AM

Did'nt the 1988 911 use servo brakes ? Are you changng your maste cylinder ?

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 26 2006, 11:27 AM

Elephant racing has a great tool in their website to help set up the suspension. They provide different combinations of front/rear sway bars, torsion bars and rear springs for set ups ranging from street use to full racetrack cars.

Just check:

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/packages/914packages.htm

These configurations, however, assume that you are using the correct damping (i.e. shocks) system in your car since the shocks they provide are the 914 units from Bilstein (Konis would be OK too). On a 914, it is easier to accomplish this by using OE struts.

Posted by: Dr. Roger Mar 26 2006, 11:28 AM

i'm starting off with some 140lb coils, colemans, koni's on stiff, and no rear sway bar.

i'm also starting with no sway in front.

then i'm installing the front sway bar and testing...

i just want to get a good feel for what's over and understeer in this car.

it's a new relationship afterall....... going slow.... LOL

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 27 2006, 11:49 AM

Can also check in here:

http://www.tangerineracing.com/suspension.htm

Posted by: Dr. Roger Mar 27 2006, 02:45 PM

andyrew,

did u notice on elephants website that they suggest 140# rear coils for street/track 1, and 180# coils for street/track II?
and for their full race the don't suggest going over the 180#ers...

i guess we should be bumping it up a bit for the added weight?

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 31 2006, 05:50 PM

225lbs...275lbs rear springs? On a lightweight car as the 914...isn´t that overkill?

Besides, I´ve always thought that rear springs and front torsion bars should go hand in hand for the suspension to work OK. I have always seen the combination of 23mm torsions to 180lbs springs. So for these bigger springs, what torsion is required? I´ve never seen torsions bigger than 23mm...

Posted by: Mueller Mar 31 2006, 06:24 PM

he has a V8 and wider rear tires...he's using the stiffer rear springs to get the rear of the car "upset" so that it is easier to swing around

Posted by: Andyrew Mar 31 2006, 06:39 PM

What mike said.

Rogger, For about 300lbs more /2000lb car

on a stock car about 120lbs in the back feels about neutral.. i do believe. little calculation says 140's should feel the same...

but the center of gravity is higher, and gives it a bigger upset... Also your fat tires on the back and 225's on the front will make quick steering, but understeering... I then would assume you would need about 2-5lbs more per 10mm of tire.. just a guess though.. that given, 225-295 is 70/5 is 14-40.. so 165 progressives might give a nice ride for no sway bar up front? 180's with a sway bar, and up...

I guess we'll see, wont we.

As far as my car, 180's were not cutting it with 22mm T bars and a stock front (on the track, it was quite neutral, but I was too scared of the car to push it)
I have a freeking huge sway bar with adustability for the front, and 275's in the back with 285 tires in the back and 255 tires up front... I think it just might work.

Andrew

Posted by: blabla914 Mar 31 2006, 07:17 PM

Good thread.

Did the 911 strut housing itself change at some point?

I agree with the idea that a 911 valved front strut is not going to work well on the front of a 914. first there is the obvious weight bias difference and then there is a weight difference which varies with the year of the 911 in question.

However, I was able to put my 914 Koni yellow struts directly into '71 911T Boge front struts without a problem. Since the early 911 front struts also have 3" spacing on the caliper mounts the struts appear to be identical except for the spindle itself.

What am I missing?

Kelly

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 31 2006, 11:29 PM

QUOTE

What am I missing?

Nothing. You're spot on.

It's simple, use the 914 inserts... the only issue is when you go to 3.5" Koni or Bilstein struts. Even then, I'd say the 914 valved insert would be less expensive than a 914 strut with the 3" to 3.5 Mods or brackets (because you're only going to 3.5 to use an A/S-Caliper or larger).

I'm not buying the modified 914 strut thingy... what about the spindle? Ricky, you're saying on Rich's car he's using 914 struts? Did he weld a 911 spindle on there as well? Or... is he using adapters or drilled 914 rotors...? I don't think so. A 914 strut with a 911 spindle welded to it is a 911 strut. There's too much to be changed vs. simply installing a 914 insert or a 914 valved insert in a 911 strut.

A 914-6 used a 911 strut. I owned one. The ride isn't harsh. It's exactly like a stock 914. For that strut you can get stock 914-6 Boges, 914 Konis or 914 Bilsteins...

Please explain...

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 31 2006, 11:30 PM

Koni Inserts P/N

914/914-6 8641-1077
911 75-89 (Boge strut) 8641-1039
911 75-89 (Koni strut) 86-1942
911 65-68 (Koni strut) 86-1308
911 65-68 (Boge strut) 86-1394
911 69-74 (Koni strut) 86-1638
911 69-74 Boge strut) 86-1647

The sport version is only available for 914´s and 911´s 75-89 w/Boge strut. P/N is the same as above with an "S" at the end.

No 911 inserts share the same P/N as the 914 insert. Maybe they are the same physically, and the differences are in the valving. Any ideas?

Furthermore, 914 inserts have the exact same price as 911 75-89 (Boge struts) inserts. Both in sports and HD versions.

These numbers I got from Paragon Products website.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 31 2006, 11:39 PM

QUOTE

Therefore, I traded my 911SC front struts for a set of modified 914 struts. The modifications inlude 3.5" spacing ears, and a raised (by 15mm from stock) spindler to lower the car. By the way, 15mm is the maximum allowable displacement on the spindler so the suspension fit perfectly inside my 15" five bolts Fuchs...you can do 17mm if using 16" wheels.

Again, something's missing here. I 'think' you have modified 911 'Boge' struts. The 911 spindle being the key. You would need the much thicker 911 spindle to put the 5-lug goodies on this strut. Otherwise... too much effort to simply make the equivalent of a 911 'Boge' strut.

(18mm is the highest you can go with 15" wheels BTW... both cars are sitting in the garage with the wheels on them)

Maybe you could have Rich clarify... I don't want to mislead people.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 31 2006, 11:42 PM

QUOTE

914/914-6 8641-1077

Well... there ya go. You successfully found an 'off the shelf' 914 Koni insert that will fit a 911 strut. Not a 911 Koni strut or a 911 Bilstein strut but this will fit the most common 911 strut, the Boge.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 31 2006, 11:47 PM

QUOTE

I'm not buying the modified 914 strut thingy... what about the spindle? Ricky, you're saying on Rich's car he's using 914 struts? Did he weld a 911 spindle on there as well? Or... is he using adapters or drilled 914 rotors...? I don't think so. A 914 strut with a 911 spindle welded to it is a 911 strut. There's too much to be changed vs. simply installing a 914 insert or a 914 valved insert in a 911 strut.

Eric,

I have a 914 Boge strut with 3.5" ears, with a 15mm raised spindler. Installed on my struts are all the pieces from my previous 911SC front suspension. These include 911SC vented rotors that I bought from performancerotors.com. These are not drilled rotors...and no adapters were used. I bought Koni´s P/N 8641-1077S which is the correct P/N for 914/914-6.

If you say that the 914-6 strut is identical to the 911 (any year?) strut, and, according to Koni´s P/N, 914-6 and 914 use the same insert, then the 914 insert should fit the 911 (any year?) strut. Right??

Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 31 2006, 11:48 PM

QUOTE

The sport version is only available for 914´s and 911´s 75-89 w/Boge strut. P/N is the same as above with an "S" at the end.

Wait... you found two off the shelf Koni 914 inserts that fit a 911 strut. That's all they make isn't it? Standard and Sport?

So... you buy a 911 front end and put 914 inserts in it. It doesn't ride any harsher than any other 914.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Mar 31 2006, 11:58 PM

QUOTE

(18mm is the highest you can go with 15" wheels BTW... both cars are sitting in the garage with the wheels on them)

You are correct on this...my typo. From RennsportSystems.com:

The spindle height limit is determined by the choice of wheel diameters. 15" wheels allow no more than 18mm change in spindle height due to ball joint interference with the inside rim. Using larger wheels will allow higher spindle heights.

Checked my e-mail´s...my spindlers were raised by 17mm.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 12:15 AM

QUOTE

Again, something's missing here. I 'think' you have modified 911 'Boge' struts. The 911 spindle being the key. You would need the much thicker 911 spindle to put the 5-lug goodies on this strut. Otherwise... too much effort to simply make the equivalent of a 911 'Boge' strut.

Eric,

This is the text from Rich´s email when we were talking about doing these mods:

"We will use the "A" spindles I have with a 914 Boge tube. In this combination you can use the 914 Koni Sport insert for proper valveing range and still raise the spindles. I have good luck setting the spindle height at 17mm for 15" wheels and 19mm for 16s and above."


However, the 911SC front suspension I had was with the Bilstein struts. Perhaps this is why it could not be used if I intended to use the 914 Koni inserts.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 1 2006, 12:25 AM

QUOTE

I have a 914 Boge strut with 3.5" ears, with a 15mm raised spindler.

It's a spindle.

QUOTE

Installed on my struts are all the pieces from my previous 911SC front suspension. These include 911SC vented rotors that I bought from performancerotors.com. These are not drilled rotors...and no adapters were used.

Sorry... you can't install 'all the pieces from your previous 911SC front suspension' on a 914 strut. The spindles are not the same size... UNLESS, they have some custom bearings to adapt. So let me get this straight:

Cut spindle off SC struts - $
Raise and Weld Spindle on 914 strut - $?

-or-

Custom bearings - $?
Cut and Raise spindle - $?
Mounting ear modification - $?

-vs.-

Custom valved inserts?

It doesn't add up, especially when you'll basically have a 911 Boge strut with 3.5" ears when you're finished.

QUOTE

I bought Koni´s P/N 8641-1077S which is the correct P/N for 914/914-6.

Those will drop right in the most common 911 'Boge' strut. Says so right in your description (914-6).

QUOTE

If you say that the 914-6 strut is identical to the 911 (any year?) strut, and, according to Koni´s P/N, 914-6 and 914 use the same insert, then the 914 insert should fit the 911 (any year?) strut. Right??

I didn't say 'any year'. There are roughly 4 different 911 struts. Correct?:

Boge - Most Common (takes 914 inserts)
Koni - On many 911S models (special valved insert)
Bilstein - On many 911S models (special valved insert) and
Hydronumatic (sic) - Option on 911E models (you don't want...)

In saying your 914 insert would fit 'any' strut, that would be misleading. Just like saying that 911 struts make a 914 ride harsh. A 911 'insert' in a 911 strut may make for a harsh ride.

The 914-6 strut is a 911 'Boge' strut from the same era. A 914 insert should fit any 'Boge' threaded strut... yes.

So... I say:

Buy a 911 front suspension, if that's what you want. Drop some 914 inserts in it and go, go, go... If you're going the serious 3.5" (Koni/Bilstein) route then it's still cheaper and easier to get custom valved inserts than it is to have all the chopping and welding done. Chris Foley charges $225.00 for the spindle operation alone. Then you've got to modify the ears...

Fill me in. How did you get a 911 hub on a 914 spindle?

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 12:33 AM

QUOTE

Cut spindle off SC struts - $ Raise and Weld Spindle on 914 strut - $?

This is what was done....

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 1 2006, 12:34 AM

QUOTE

"We will use the "A" spindles I have with a 914 Boge tube. In this combination you can use the 914 Koni Sport insert for proper valveing range and still raise the spindles. I have good luck setting the spindle height at 17mm for 15" wheels and 19mm for 16s and above."

Now it's beginning to make sense. He welds the entire 911 spindle on a 914 strut.

Ricky, this is still a 'LOT' of work when:

1.) Most narrow body cars will 'never' need anything more than an M-Caliper hence a 3" 911 'Boge' front end.

2.) The cost of the mods should well exceed the cost of specially valved inserts for your original front end.

I think what you have is a neat setup. I also think you're misleading people when you say a 911 front end makes a 914 ride harsh. It's simply not true. For me, custom valved Koni's are a much more viable and much less expensive alternative.

Thanks for clarifying.

Posted by: army dude Apr 1 2006, 12:50 AM

My head hurts with all this. When I start this mod I will have this printed out to read over and over and over...... Or I will just send it to somebody to do it for me. Anybody want to adopt my projrct??

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 12:56 AM

QUOTE

I think what you have is a neat setup. I also think you're misleading people when you say a 911 front end makes a 914 ride harsh. It's simply not true. For me, custom valved Koni's are a much more viable and much less expensive alternative

Eric,

Thanks about the neat setup comment.

I am sorry if I was misunderstood. All along I was trying to send the message that the off-the-shelf 911 INSERTS are not ideal for 914´s. This is very true.

Isn´t it also misleading to say that a 911 front end swap is just a bolt-on upgrade? This statement sounds to me that you swap the front end, and that´s it. Most buyers will buy these expensive complete front suspension setups expecting a plug and play improvements in the handling qualities of the car, when actually dampers from another car with very different characteristic has been introduced. When I originally did the swap I felt let down because I did not feel an improvement in handling and actually got an uncomfortable ride.

I think most people that would install a 911 front end will either keep whatever inserts came with the suspension, or buy the direct replacement for model and year 911 the suspension came from, again thinking that this is an improvement in suspension and ride characteristics. I did. It is great information to know that the 914 insert directly fits inside the 911 Boge strut, honestly, this I did not know.

After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know.

When thinking about these upgrades, I also investigated the valving of the Bilstein inserts in my 911SC front end because at the time I had sports Bilstein rear shocks, however, there was a long wait for this process, I had to provide the parameters for the revalving (which I did not know...again before 914world.com days), and set the car on jackstands while it was done. I chose the easiest route, and the one that would get me where I wanted.

Rich did all that work for about $750 plus my SC strut cores. A complete 911 front end, I been reading in this forum, goes for about $1200, so pricewise is about the same. Of course, when I started all this I already owned a complete 911 front end...i.e. brakes, calipers, 5-bolt conversion pieces, etc.; I guess these parts will have to be considered in the pricing of the final product. The cost of these components in used condition, however, is affordable...I just sold a pair of recently rebuilt SC calipers in the classifieds for $150. But if the intend is to lower the car also by displacing the spindle (I got it right this time), then this is not so outrageous.

When I replaced the Bilstein 911SC inserts with the Koni 914 inserts, there was a lot of improvement in ride quality and the handling of the car.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 01:35 AM

QUOTE

1.) Most narrow body cars will 'never' need anything more than an M-Caliper hence a 3" 911 'Boge' front end.

Eric,

About three weeks ago I sent you an e-mail because I was considering upgrading my rear brakes to 911 calipers, and ask you about the e-brake setup that you sell.

My current brake configuration is 911S alloy front calipers, OE 914 rear calipers with spacers, steel braided lines, 19mm master cylinder, and vented/crossdrilled/slotted 911 rotors on all four wheels.

At that time you told me my braking was about right and that I should not change it. Your quoted comment says that my front brake setup is probably overkill since I have a narrow car.

Are my front brakes too much for what I have in the rear? How to balance it?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 1 2006, 11:17 AM

Thanks Ricky for the explanation.

Again, as evident with our new Friend 'Army Dude', I think you're causing a lot of unnecessary confusion.

Folks, 911 front suspension components will simply bolt on a 914. It is 'highly' advisable to get 914 inserts for your 911 front end. To take it further:

For narrow body 914's, I like what the factory used:

69-73 911T front suspension - These were generally set up for through body sway bars. They have 3" mounting ears for 911 M-Calipers Which are all you will need with the tire packages that can fit under the narrow bodied car. These will accept 'any' 914 strut out there (Boge, Koni, Bilstein, KYB, etc.)

For wide body 914's, I like what the factory used:

67-73 911S (Koni or Bilstein) front suspension - As above but are set up for 3.5" caliper mounts (A or S-Calipers). These calipers are good for much larger tire contact patches and are better suited for HP up to 240-250. With these you will have to special order custom valved inserts.

QUOTE

All along I was trying to send the message that the off-the-shelf 911 INSERTS are not ideal for 914´s. This is very true.

Hmmmm... that's not what you said here:

QUOTE

911 front struts are not the best option for a 914 because you can only install inserts that are designed for 911 chassis dynamics

Regarding the INSERT statement, for the most part. Keep in mind, you experienced "Bilsteins" valved for a VERY heavy late model 911SC. I believe a set of Koni's for an early 911 turned full soft (where I keep all my Koni's) would be 'fairly' indistinguishable. Bilsteins are great shocks but they are a set-em and forget-em 'Sport' shock. For that reason alone, I like Koni's.

QUOTE

Isn’t it also misleading to say that a 911 front end swap is just a bolt-on upgrade? This statement sounds to me that you swap the front end, and that’s it.

The front suspensions are virtually identical in their form and function. I don't think most buyers buy these expecting plug and play improvements. I think they want 5-lug hubs and possibly bigger brakes. I agree, there's probably a large contingent that just swap them out and call it a day, but, I think there's an equally large contingent that know what's going on with inserts... you simply don't run 911SC Bilstein inserts on a 914 (as you now know).

QUOTE

After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. What you bought was an SC front end. I don't think the purchase was a mistake. I think leaving the 'ultra-wrong' 911SC Bilstein inserts in there was a mistake (as you yourself attest to). For 1/2 the money spent on 914 strut and spindle mods you could have had the proper inserts to slide into your struts.

This is also where I think it becomes misleading. For people who want or need 3.5" brake spacing, these Koni or Bilstein front ends are a 'very' viable solution. These struts (struts only) can be purchased for $250-$300 a 'pair' all day long. Complete 911 front ends go for anywhere from $200-$600... not $1,200, hell, you can buy a sawzall roller SC on the birdie board for $3k, why would anyone pay $1,200 for the front suspension. Someone recently asked about a front end from Oklahoma Foreign at the wonderful $1,200 price and the replies came back unanimous "RUN AWAY".

QUOTE

I chose the easiest route, and the one that would get me where I wanted.

Again, I don't want to belabor or nit-pick but I think the easiest route would be to buy some revalved inserts for 1/2 the cost. You chose a route that got you what you wanted. Here's some real world cost examples that should be fairly easy to beat:

Yours with the cost of struts thrown in:
Labor $750
SC strut cores $250
Total $1,000

-vs.-

911T Struts $250
Your 914 inserts $free
Total $250

-or-

911T front end $400
Your 914 inserts $free
Total $400

-or-

911T Struts $250
Koni 914 inserts $275
Total $525

-or-

911T front end $400
Koni 914 inserts $275
Total $675

-or-

SC Struts $250
Proper Inserts $350
Total $600

-or-

SC Struts $250
Proper Inserts $350
Chris Foley Raises the Spindle $225
Total $825

QUOTE

When I replaced the Bilstein 911SC inserts with the Koni 914 inserts, there was a lot of improvement in ride quality and the handling of the car.

Ya think I really think this is the issue here Ricky. People need to understand that you had a bad experience using Bilstein 911SC inserts on your 914. I would add… of course you did.

Again, Ricky, not bashing you... to 'me', your previous posts are extremely misleading. They read like "If you bolt a 911 front end on your teener you'll have a harsh ride". I agree wholeheartedly that the inserts should match the car not the strut, so, if this thread will help more people understand that then it's a good thing. I already had someone PM me last night worried about buying a 914 now that has a 911 front end on it... this is the wrong message to send.

I also think that 80% of the people out there can find some 911T struts and bolt them on their car for less than 1/2 what you paid (maybe even 1/4) and have all the benefits they might be looking for (5-lug, vented rotors, m-calipers, cheaper rotors, larger spindles, beefier bearings).

On to your brake question:

Your A-Calipers up front are overkill but the “system” you have with the T-fitting and the vented rear calipers should be “OK”. You are seriously on the edge of what I would call too little rear brake but that’s much better than too much rear brake.

Options:

* Keep your eye out for a set of –6 calipers.
* Watch for Marty’s “Spot-Caliper” to hit the market and then move to 911 rear M-Calipers.
* Perform the 911 hand-brake conversion (whew… find cables, find early hand-brake assemblies, grind, etc.)

I would keep what you have and have a friend video tape some parking lot stops. See if your rears are even in the game. You’ll want them to lock up after the fronts for sure.

(that's the end of my new, New Testament... I promise)

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 12:19 PM

QUOTE

* Watch for Marty’s “Spot-Caliper” to hit the market and then move to 911 rear M-Calipers.

What´s this??

Posted by: GTPatrick Apr 1 2006, 12:39 PM

Eric & Ricky, . . . . .

What do you guys mean by a 911 insert & a 914 insert ? What's an insert ???? Do you mean shocks or what ???

Being a relative newbie to 914s , sometimes the terminology befuddles me.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 01:03 PM

QUOTE (GTPatrick @ Apr 1 2006, 10:39 AM)

Eric & Ricky, . . . . . What do you guys mean by a 911 insert & a 914 insert ? What's an insert ???? Do you mean shocks or what ??? Being a relative newbie to 914s , sometimes the terminology befuddles me.

The insert is the front suspension damper...the front end shock absorber.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 1 2006, 01:33 PM

QUOTE

Again, Ricky, not bashing you... to 'me', your previous posts are extremely misleading. They read like "If you bolt a 911 front end on your teener you'll have a harsh ride".

This was never my intention. A strut is just a casing...what causes the harsh ride is the insert inside.

I was looking at 911 weight data from 1963 thru 1989 from a British magazine (GT Purely Porsche). In 1963 the 911 weighted 1080Kg and it kept going up to 1210Kg for the 1989 Carrera. The 80´s 930 was 1300Kg. The same publication lists the 914 weight at 970Kg. Even the 1963 car is already 230lbs heavier than a 914.

The 911 has a rear weight bias with a near 40/60 weight distribution, while the 914 is close to 50/50.

These are the reasons I was refering to when talking about 911 inserts being wrong for the 914.

When I started modifying my car, I wanted: late 911 front brakes (911 has to be better..right?) although they must have the correct 914-era appearance (i.e. no big red Porsche calipers), 5-bolt conversion since I like those 911 Fuch alloys (again 911 must be better), and better suspension components for A/X. Additionally I wanted a lowered car. I got 2 out of 3 when I obtained the 911SC front end suspension. But this "911 must be better" attitude without researching made me buy what later on resulted in the wrong suspension components.

I hope these pages will help others to choose the correct setup when upgrading their suspensions.

Posted by: John Jentz Apr 1 2006, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Apr 1 2006, 01:17 PM)

QUOTE After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know. This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. What you bought was an SC front end. I don't think the purchase was a mistake. I think leaving the 'ultra-wrong' 911SC Bilstein inserts in there was a mistake (as you yourself attest to). For 1/2 the money spent on 914 strut and spindle mods you could have had the proper inserts to slide into your struts.

Eric,

Original Bilstein, Koni and Boge struts do not have inserts in them. Pull the cap and all the oil and guts fall out. IIRC, all the Bilstein and Koni inserts sold as replacement parts will only fit the Boge strut. I believe you have to have the Bilstein and Koni struts rebuilt as their own inserts will not fit.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 1 2006, 03:17 PM

QUOTE

Original Bilstein, Koni and Boge struts do not have inserts in them.

I've seen this before and it may have been on a few select Bilstein inserts. If you think about it, there really isn't much need for the casing around the insert. However, in the face of replacing or repairing one, the inserts have the advantage. In some cases you may experience 50ml (50 right?) of anti-freeze in the strut tube. This is what the mfg. recommends. You also may be talking about a Hydropneumatic strut. The Boge strut takes all three inserts and then some. They definately come with inserts or can be retrofitted if they came in naked form as you describe.

QUOTE

I believe you have to have the Bilstein and Koni struts rebuilt as their own inserts will not fit.

This is not accurate. I have Koni struts on both my 911 and my 914-6/GT clone. They both have new Koni inserts.

Koni Struts = Koni Inserts Only (you can get inserts)
Bilstein Struts = Bilstein Inserts Only (you can get inserts)
Boge Struts = Boge, Koni and Bilstein Inserts

Again, this is why I like the early 911 Boge strut for all of the narrow 914's out there. It comes with a brake that is a worthy successor to the already excellent 914 front brake (they look nearly identical, the M is just slightly larger). The M-Caliper won't seriously overpower the rear 914 brake if a T-Fitting is used. The other manufacturers make excellent 914 replacement strut inserts that drop right in this little beast. You'll get vented rotors and an ever so slightly larger t-bar (18.8mm) which may help a bit at the auto-x course.

QUOTE

But this "911 must be better" attitude without researching made me buy what later on resulted in the wrong suspension components.

Well... there are a lot of nice things about the 911 components (beefier spindles, bearings, vented rotors that are fairly inexpensive and you don't have to get wheel bearings etc. when you replace the rotor, brakes can be more substancial) but I agree, I agree, I agree. A 914 suspension is excellent and literally identical to a 911 unit. A 914 dimed in with a nice set of inserts, good bushings and a sway bar should really afford no difference in ride quality and performance over the proper 911 counterpart.

If people want to go for the 5-lug look, (which I still think is the way these little beasts should have come from DE ), then a nice early 911 front end is definately the way to go. JUST GET 914 INSERTS

QUOTE

What´s this??

Marty (MSDS) is rumored to have been working on a spot caliper. I'm 'guessing' the mount would replace the bearing cover. Now you can add a 911 rear caliper and not have to worry about the parking brake. These spot calipers are small calipers that are cable actuated and act as the handbrake. They're rumored to utilize the factory handbrake cables. When these become available, they will take a large trouble spot out of a standard brake upgrade. Yours for instance... 911 rear M-Calipers and this spot caliper. Done.

As mentioned in other threads, this is for cars with flares affording larger contact patches and higher HP engines. We don't want to get caught up in the 911 is better thing. 914 brakes are excellent for all narrow bodied cars with the exception of those who are working seriosly demanding road course circuits. This is the only time we've heard of fade.

James started an excellent http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=49079&s= on this (brakes) a couple of days ago.

Posted by: soupbone Apr 2 2006, 01:43 AM

So the question for me is who can do custom valved bilstien fronts for a 914 with 911 front end with A calipers? What sized aftermarket sway bar would be a good match? Polybronze or roller bearing? Opinions or gospel on a primarily street setup with some DE.

Posted by: neo914-6 Apr 2 2006, 02:56 AM

QUOTE

Marty (MSDS) is rumored to have been working on a spot caliper.

Check the MSDS link in my sig. they will be on my car at Nov SEMA. They only fit on the vented early 911 (9146) rear rotor right now...

BTW, my V8 914 has 911 Boge struts, Automotion conversion kit for Koni adjustable inserts, Brad replaced my "S" w/ "A" calipers, 8" wheels...

Posted by: jasons Apr 2 2006, 08:25 AM

QUOTE (soupbone @ Apr 1 2006, 11:43 PM)

So the question for me is who can do custom valved bilstien fronts for a 914 with 911 front end with A calipers? What sized aftermarket sway bar would be a good match? Polybronze or roller bearing? Opinions or gospel on a primarily street setup with some DE.

Enquiring minds want to know......

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 2 2006, 10:06 AM

Try Jack French at Bilstein he can be reached at 1-800-537-1085

If you purchase new struts you can generally tell the supplier that you want them revalved by Bilstiein and that you have the specs that Jack French at Bilstein needs.

Price will be the cost of the struts, plus the shipping to Bilstein. The revalve fee is usually $65 per strut and then you will have return shipping charges from Bilstein to you.

If anyone already has the struts you can send them to Bilstein yourself and your revalve fee is a little less at $55 per strut. Send them to:

Krupp Bilstein of America
14102 Stowe Dr.
Poway, Ca 92064
Attn: Jack French

They will only work on your struts if you pay the revalve fee in advance or use a credit card.

Regarding your street/autocross car. I would recommend a stock 15mm or at the most a 19mm sway bar.

Regarding bushings... your choice. They're both excellent.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 2 2006, 07:04 PM

QUOTE

BTW, my V8 914 has 911 Boge struts, Automotion conversion kit for Koni adjustable inserts, Brad replaced my "S" w/ "A" calipers, 8" wheels...

Eric,

I thought you mentioned earlier in this thread that 914 inserts simply fit the 911 Boge struts. neo914-6 mentions a conversion kit to these struts to make them compatible with the 914 insert.

I checked the Automotion website...they call it a "Front Cap Nut For Boge Struts."

What gives?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 2 2006, 07:58 PM

QUOTE

What gives?

You asking me or Felix?

I took me 2 pages to figure out what was on your car...

Posted by: jsteele22 Apr 2 2006, 09:24 PM

Just came across this thread. Lots of great info.

I have a qustion that (kinda) fits in this thread : Is a 911 front swaybar (of the early through-body design) the same as the 914 swaybar, or at least similar enough to work with a stock 914 front end ?

I know I'll need to remove the gas tank and do some drilling/cutting as described in the PP tech note, and also that I'll need to add the U-tabs to attach the drop links to the A-arms. But I just wanted to make sure that

a) The geometry of the bar is the same (pretty sure it is)
The drop links from the 911 bar will fit the U-tabs.

Based on what I've learned here, I'm pretty sure it will work, but I really don't want to find the hard way if I'm wrong..

Also, is a 15mm sway bar decent for a street car ?

Thx

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 2 2006, 10:12 PM

QUOTE

I agree, there's probably a large contingent that just swap them out and call it a day, but, I think there's an equally large contingent that know what's going on with inserts... you simply don't run 911SC Bilstein inserts on a 914 (as you now know).

Just this last week there were a couple of threads initiated in this forum where a member asked if a 914 insert simply fit a 911 strut...and another member answered "I did it in my car and it was OK" so it will be OK with you. Up until the the SC model, Porsche sold up to 4 different models of 911 each year plus a 912. I imagine that Porsche, being a performance oriented manufacturer, used different setting for all these different models. It is not as simple as just swap components and that is it, especially since the lightest of the production 911 (i.e. 1964) is already 230lbs heavier than a 914. A 911 front end swap should be carefully planned and the right components obtained based on the final configuration desired. I now got exactly what I wanted.

QUOTE

I agree wholeheartedly that the inserts should match the car not the strut, so, if this thread will help more people understand that then it's a good thing. I already had someone PM me last night worried about buying a 914 now that has a 911 front end on it... this is the wrong message to send.

I would not call this a wrong message...actually the buyer is more carefull as to what he/she is buying. A 914 is an low power car with great handling characteristics. So, why buy one that is already set incorrectly suspension wise? Personally, after my experience with the SC front end, I do not think that a 911 front end should be used a selling point for these cars unless it is set correctly.

QUOTE

Buy a 911 front suspension, if that's what you want. Drop some 914 inserts in it and go, go, go... If you're going the serious 3.5" (Koni/Bilstein) route then it's still cheaper and easier to get custom valved inserts than it is to have all the chopping and welding done. Chris Foley charges $225.00 for the spindle operation alone. Then you've got to modify the ears...

This is exactly what I got. You are concern that I may paid more than necessary, and I may have. (Although just because at that time I did not know about Chris Foley...he may have done the work for his advertised price of $225.00 since I had all the parts.) But I wanted 911S alloy calipers (i.e. 3.5" ears), 914 inserts, 17mm raised spindle and 5-bolt conversion. By using an OE 914 strut, I eliminated all the guess work as to which is the correct insert. The cut and paste approach in my setup was inevitable since I wanted to raised the spindle. Besides I wanted to replace the Bilsteins inserts with Konis because I wanted the adjustability.


I think that I finally have the optimun suspension setup for my driving habits. I wanted a street performance car with the ocassional PCA weekend A/X´s. I did not think about engine mods until my suspension was to my liking. I think I have finally achieved my suspension goals, therefore, I just recently bought a big engine kit from Jake Raby.

Posted by: neo914-6 Apr 3 2006, 01:30 AM

QUOTE (rickyhgarcia @ Apr 2 2006, 05:04 PM)

QUOTE BTW, my V8 914 has 911 Boge struts, Automotion conversion kit for Koni adjustable inserts, Brad replaced my "S" w/ "A" calipers, 8" wheels... Eric, I thought you mentioned earlier in this thread that 914 inserts simply fit the 911 Boge struts. neo914-6 mentions a conversion kit to these struts to make them compatible with the 914 insert. I checked the Automotion website...they call it a "Front Cap Nut For Boge Struts." What gives?

Ricky,

You made me dig up my old receipts to show how well my memory doesn't serve me. I actually got them from "Porsheaven" in '89 and they are listed as 911E strut conv PS-911. When Brad worked on my car in ~03, he had to fab or weld something as they were loose in the strut. He or Andy may remember...

Did more investigation, looks like I bought 911 struts to AVOID:

QUOTE

911 (1965-1977) Suspension 911 1970 HYDRO PNEUMATIC STRUTS Back to 911 (1965-1977) Question Answer RECENTLY PURCHASED A 1970 911 E COUPE.THE CAR WAS IN STORAGE FOR OVER 32 YEARS. THE FRONT END WAS ALMOST TOUCHING THE GROUND AND IT WAS THEN I STARTED LEARNING ABOUT HYDRO PNEUMATIC STRUTS. I HAVE GONE TO THE PORSCHE MANUAL AND FOLLOWED THE DIRECTIONS TO TRY TO PUMP THEM UP BUT NO LUCK. I HAVE TO ASSUME THEY ARE BAD.SINCE THEY ARE NO LONGER MADE BY BOGE/SACHS, THEIR NO AMERICA TECH MGR REFERED ME TO EUROPE'S FACTORY TECH GUY BUT NO WORD BACK.I HAVE SEVERAL QUESTIONS: DOES ANYONE IN THE STATES RE BUILD THEM? ARE THERE ANY SOURCES YOU CAN THINK OF THAT MAY HAVE NEW OR SERVICABLE PAIRS? LASTLY.....CAN I CONVERT THESE TO THE STANDARD 911 SUSPENSION AND WHAT PARTS ARE REQUIRED OVER AND ABOVE THE HYDRO PNEUMATICS SET UP? DOES PORSCHE HAVE ANY SERVICE MANUAL TO CONVERT IN LIGHT OF THE OUT OF MANUFACTURE CONDITION ON THE STRUTS? LOTS OF BUM STEERS SO FAR, NO FACTS.CAN YOU HELP? Those were not one of Porsches' greatest engineering marvels. To my knowledge there is no factory support or anyone else's for that matter that I'm aware of. At one time Koni made a adapter kit that consisted of aluminum bushings to let you install a standard shock into the pneumatic strut. I doubt you would even find that anymore. The usual fix was to entirely convert the suspension to a standard strut and torsion bar set-up. Besides the strut itself, you will likely need the lower control arms, since I don't believe the originals had the splines for the torsion bars. I have never seen any official mention of this conversion, it's just something every one knew about back then. Ed Mayo - PCA WebSite - 8/10/2004

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 09:39 AM

Ricky,

I do believe we can officially 'drop it' now.

Your "What Gives?" comment was bore out to be the Hydropneumatic struts that, in a previous post in this thread, I warned people to stay away from. You can spend the rest of the thread trying to prove me wrong if need be... it's up to you.

I decided to weigh in on this thread because of your comment:

QUOTE

911 front struts are not the best option for a 914 because you can only install inserts that are designed for 911 chassis dynamics

QUOTE

I would not call this a wrong message

I would.

That's the line I'm disputing. That's where you are misinforming the members of this board. This is flat out incorrect and I still feel you were steering people the wrong way, especially when you are steering them to a $750 strut mod (plus the cost of struts) when all you really needed was a $55 per Bilstein revalve. You mention later that you meant "INSERTS" when in the above statement you mention both struts and inserts in their proper context.

QUOTE

You are concern that I may paid more than necessary, and I may have.

No I'm not. Your money is already spent. I'm concerned, as I've seen people weight in on this thread, that you are misinforming people about 911 front suspensions and as stated above, pointing them to a mod that will cost them $640 dollars more than getting their inserts revalved by Bilstein.

Ricky, if I've offended you by quoting what I presume to be the facts about 911 struts, inserts and front ends on 914's then I am truely sorry. That was not my intent.

If you think I'm bashing your setup or choices, "I'm not". I know Rich and I am more than certain the work he's performed is worth what you paid and will live up to the integrity of every product he's offered... top notch. You have an excellent suspension now. In your words, it's the optimun suspension setup for your driving habits. WTG! For some, that's an endless search and can be considered priceless.

QUOTE

after my experience with the SC front end, I do not think that a 911 front end should be used a selling point for these cars unless it is set correctly

Thank you for being an example. Sorry it cost you so much. If you're learning as you go along, which it seems you are, then learn. Please stop attempting to make me out to be the bad guy here. OK?

914club

911 suspensions 'bolt right on' to your 914. Make sure you have your inserts revalved for 914 chassis dynamics or make sure you purchase 914 inserts to put in the strut.

End of story.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 09:44 AM

jsteele22

The bars are identical in every aspect EXCEPT the drop links. The 911 droplinks are 1" different.

I posted a picture of it a while back and honestly I don't remember if they are longer or shorter. I think they are 1" shorter.

Regardless, best bet would be to check around here or call Rich at HPH and see if he has any teener droplinks. Then it's, DARE I SAY, a "BOLT ON" application.

QUOTE

Also, is a 15mm sway bar decent for a street car ?

Excellent choice for a street car. Excellent.

Posted by: jsteele22 Apr 3 2006, 09:51 AM

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Apr 3 2006, 08:44 AM)

jsteele22 The bars are identical in every aspect EXCEPT the drop links. The 911 droplinks are 1" different. I posted a picture of it a while back and honestly I don't remember if they are longer or shorter. I think they are 1" shorter. Regardless, best bet would be to check around here or call Rich at HPH and see if he has any teener droplinks. Then it's, DARE I SAY, a "BOLT ON" application. QUOTE Also, is a 15mm sway bar decent for a street car ? Excellent choice for a street car. Excellent.

Great,

Thanks Eric. I'll just hold off on this sway bar, and wait til I find a 914 one.

Jeff

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 3 2006, 09:58 AM

QUOTE

I do believe we can officially 'drop it' now.

Peace bro....

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 09:59 AM

Posted by: JOHNMAN Apr 3 2006, 10:41 AM

QUOTE

The front suspensions are virtually identical in their form and function. I don't think most buyers buy these expecting plug and play improvements. I think they want 5-lug hubs and possibly bigger brakes. I agree, there's probably a large contingent that just swap them out and call it a day, but, I think there's an equally large contingent that know what's going on with inserts... you simply don't run 911SC Bilstein inserts on a 914 (as you now know). QUOTE After all this interchange, however, I would recommend anyone contemplating this upgrade to avoid 911 suspension setups with Koni or Bilstein struts. I myself made the mistake of buying a 911SC setup with Bilstein struts just because I did not know. This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. What you bought was an SC front end. I don't think the purchase was a mistake. I think leaving the 'ultra-wrong' 911SC Bilstein inserts in there was a mistake (as you yourself attest to). For 1/2 the money spent on 914 strut and spindle mods you could have had the proper inserts to slide into your struts.

I have two questions:


1. Where does one buy these "revalved" Bilstein inserts for 914 use?

2. What do you ask for? (I am no shock absorber expert)

I happen to have a pair of Green Bilstein struts (1979 SC) that I'm going to use.

My car will be wide body and for use on the street. (for now) It may graduate to the track eventually.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 10:54 AM

See the bottom of page 3.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 11:06 AM

I also want to be clear on the pricing for revalving:

For Bilstein's it's fairly inexpensive at $55-65 each. There's not much inside the standard insert to raise the cost.

For the more intricate, adjustable Koni's it's $140 plus any parts that may be needed. Old Koni's might want to have the external adjustment knob added for an additional $30 (no brainer in my book)

This is literally the cost of a new strut however, as we've mentioned in this thread, if you have a 911 Koni strut with the 3.5" mounting ears, there are no off the shelf 914 inserts for them so this revalve is the only way to go to get the best ride for your 914 (this is what I had to do).

Here's the info:

Koni NA
1961 International Way
Hebron, KY 41048
859-586-4100
Talk to Gordon at x343

Posted by: JOHNMAN Apr 3 2006, 11:25 AM

Thanks for the info Eric,

I read and re-read the thread.

But I still have the question of when they ask me for specifications to revalve, what specs do I give them???

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 11:30 AM

QUOTE

what specs do I give them???

I think they'll give 'you' the specs. They already manufacture 914 inserts so they have the info on dampening and rebound on file. Just tell them what you have (like you did here) and tell them what you're putting it on. They'll be able to apply the 914 characteristics to your SC insert.

The Koni 911 and 914 inserts are almost identical BTW with only the high speed dampening being different.

Posted by: JOHNMAN Apr 3 2006, 11:32 AM

We thank you for your support.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 3 2006, 12:05 PM

This is what they look like before powder coating....


Attached image(s)

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 3 2006, 12:10 PM

Left...


Attached image(s)

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 3 2006, 12:11 PM

Right...


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 01:19 PM

Pur-deeeeee

Looks like there's some serious spindle gusseting on there as well. This is a good thing as "many" 30 plus year old spindles are now sagging. It's usually not and issue because people tend to like a bit of negative camber but, pretty soon they'll be out of the range of adjustability.

Posted by: davep Apr 3 2006, 01:46 PM

There are quite a few struts used on the 911 and 914. There are at least four for the 914:
914/6 which is actually a 911 strut
914/4 up to late 1972
914/4 from late 1972
914/4 Bilstein

There are many for the 911:
very early up to 1968 IIRC, don't consider these
911T from 1969 same as 914/6 3.0" caliper mount
911E from 1969 3.5" caliper mount but hydropneumatic
911S from 1969 3.5" caliper mount for aluminum caliper
and so on.

Various manufacturers made the struts: Boge, Sachs, Koni, Bilstein. Most of the caps are not compatible; thread pitch and so on. Even the length of the inserts can change. So, some adapter caps were made to accomodate otherwise incompatible struts and inserts.

The 911E hydropneumatic could be modified to use shock inserts at significant expense, but was popular back when. The suspension did not use front torsion bars, and most A-arms were not even splined to accept torsion bars. These suspensions are really only useful for the aluminum calipers they had IF that is the caliper you want.
About 1974 IIRC the A caliper replaced the S caliper for cost reasons and the 911 T and E were dropped, so the 3.5" caliper mount was standard. However, the underbody sway bar was introduced, also for cost reasons, and the through body sway bar was gone.

The steering racks were very similar, and I can't say there is any real difference. However, the shaft from the 914 must be used.

Posted by: soupbone Apr 3 2006, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Apr 1 2006, 10:17 AM)

Your A-Calipers up front are overkill but the “system” you have with the T-fitting and the vented rear calipers should be “OK”.  You are seriously on the edge of what I would call too little rear brake but that’s much better than too much rear brake. Options: * Keep your eye out for a set of –6 calipers. * Watch for Marty’s “Spot-Caliper” to hit the market and then move to 911 rear M-Calipers. * Perform the 911 hand-brake conversion (whew… find cables, find early hand-brake assemblies, grind, etc.) (that's the end of my new, New Testament... I promise)  :D

http://www.phoenixhobbies.com/html/911_e-brakes.html
I take it this is the rear brake mod with M calipers your talking about. Seems inexpensive for parts but the labor involved looks pretty extensive. Cool OEM looking mod though.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 3 2006, 03:55 PM

That's basically it. He does a really nice job. I've done about 1/2 dozen of these for myself and customers. This issue is sourcing the cables. Greg in Knoxville found a source I believe.

Regarding that post: I would simply take a high speed grinder to the bearing housing vs. the hack saw. You'll be done within an hour.

Here's a http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=4909 to the first set I did for my car.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 4 2006, 05:41 AM

Some general information on 911 struts and front brakes:

QUOTE

Identifying 911 front brakes and strut assemblies: Front Struts:   Boge strut housings were standard equipment, and are the most common found on the 911. They are black (sometimes gray) in color, and used a standard hydraulic shock insert. The advantage of a Boge strut is that you can replace the shock insert with either Boge, Koni, Bilstein, KYB, or your favorite brand shock insert.   Koni strut housings were optional equipment on 911s through 77, and are identified by their red/orange color. Most Koni shock inserts were originally hydraulic, capable of being adjusted firmer or softer by removing the shock and manually adjusting the setting. Newer Koni replacement inserts are gas shocks with adjustment made by turning a knob at the top of the shock (taking only a few seconds to change the firmness).   Koni struts can only use a Koni shock insert.   Bilstein strut assemblies were optional equipment on the 911, and standard equipment on the 911 Turbo. They are identified by their green (sometimes yellow) color. Bilstein struts can only use Bilstein shock inserts. Front Brakes:   M calipers. Stock, steel calipers for 911’s through 75. Caliper mounting bolt spacing on strut is about 3 inches.  Figure 1 and Figure 2 show 'M' calipers installed on a car.   S calipers. Aluminum, larger calipers used on 911S and ‘S’ option cars through 77. Mounting bolt spacing on strut is about 3.5 inches. Cannot be put on ‘M’ caliper front end. Can be used on A caliper front end.   A calipers. Stock, steel calipers used on 75-83 911. Mounting bolt spacing on strut is about 3.5 inches (same as ‘S’ caliper).   Carrera calipers were used on 911’s from 84-89, and accomodate a brake pad wear sensor.  Figure 3, Figure 4, and Figure 5 show 'A' calipers from a 911SC front suspension.   All 911s through 89 used the same size front torsion bar (19mm). Note: The 914 torsion bar and the 911 torsion bars are not interchangeable, as the number of splines on the bar are different.

Posted by: rickyhgarcia Apr 4 2006, 06:04 AM

Some more general info:

QUOTE

How to Make Your Porsche Faster,  Part 1:                            Suspensions The best way to make your Porsche faster is to learn to drive it at its fullest potential! As delivered, Porsche automobiles are capable of performing far in excess of most owners’ ability. Investing in Driver Education and formal racing instruction is much more cost effective than any piece of hardware that you can install on your Porsche. Driver Education and track time will make you a better driver than purchasing springs, shocks, or swaybars. That said, the main goal in improving your Porsche’s handling is making it easier to drive and more controllable when driven near or at the limit of your ability. The factory suspension settings are a compromise between handling and ride quality. Therefore any upgrades will change this set-up to one specifically tailored to the way you use and drive your car. Some of these components have a negligible effect upon ride quality, while others may transform your car into a race car with the attendant degradation in ride quality. We will indicate which items have the smallest impact on maintaining a streetable ride. 911’s, 930’s, 964’s, 993’s, 996's and Boxster’s all have different components and suspension design differences. We will discuss the various parts that may be upgraded with specific recommendations for each model for street and occasional track use. Full racing specifications are available by e-mail for each car and application. There are four main suspension components that can be changed for higher performance: 1) Springs or Torsion Bars 2) Dampers (shock absorbers) 3) Anti-Sway Bars 4) Suspension Bushings or Bearings Other items that are usually considered are Front Shock Tower Braces, Bump Steer kits, Spring Plate kits, and complete suspension systems for racers. This last item usually consists of replacing torsion bars with coil-over suspension pieces. There are some specialty parts such as ERP Products that replace the entire front and rear suspension with custom made pieces that are derived from the Porsche 935. These are very high quality components that save weight and make suspension adjustments much easier and more precise. Torsion Bars & Springs These two items perform the same function respectively, for the 911/930 as well as the 964/993/996/986-series of Porsche automobiles. Porsche used torsion bars of varying sizes on the 911 from introduction in 1964 to 1989. The 930 also used torsion bars from 1975 to 1989. In 1989 the Carrera 4 (964) was equipped with coil springs and the rest of the Carreras followed suit. All of the 964-993-996 and Boxsters use coil springs. Torsion Bar sizes can be upgraded to larger bars in both solid bar and hollow versions. The hollow ones help to alleviate the added weight penalty of using larger, stiffer torsion bars. Some of the aftermarket bars have not been of particularly high quality and have exhibited sagging as well as not being the same spring rate as the factory offerings. Lately, there are some excellent torsion bars available in various sizes that are manufactured here in the USA. Installing larger torsion bars has a small effect on ride quality. You can install bars that are 25% stiffer without a serious degradation, unless you live where the roads are really terrible. Removal and installation require just basic tools. Coil springs can also be upgraded to shorter, stiffer versions that reduce the lateral weight transfer and sway of the 964-993-996-Boxster series Porsches. They also enhance the appearance by closing the gap between the fender and the tire. The progressive type springs used by Eibach and H & R minimize the effect upon ride quality. The Porsche Cup suspension system used by the factory for European racing series are too stiff for street use unless you have masochistic tendencies. This stuff is really stiff! 993's-996's and Boxsters gain the greatest handling improvements with the installation of aftermarket coil-over struts & shocks. This permits ride height adjustments from 0-2", precise corner-weighting, and the fitment of some larger, adjustable swaybars. Dampers (Shock Absorbers) Shock absorbers, correctly called dampers, perform a multitude of tasks that are critical to optimum handling especially on bumpy surfaces and tracks that have many changes in direction. Dampers MUST be matched to the springs for the suspension to function properly. This is accomplished by selecting components from a manufacturer with a great deal of experience. The manufacturer must offer several choices that are very close to optimal, or adjustable dampers that will allow a range of adjustments. These may not have very wide range of adjustment. You may need to choose the type of damper, specifically for street, sport or racing, to get the range of adjustment that you need. Dampers that are properly selected and valved, actually dampen spring oscillations and keep the tires in contact with the pavement. They also manage weight transfer during cornering and braking. Dampers control both the amount of weight transfer and the rate at which this happens. Basically, this means that all weight transfer transients, such as when entering and leaving a corner or changing direction, are controlled by the damper settings. The rate of weight transfer caused by braking and acceleration is also affected by damper valving. Dampers come in different valving combinations depending upon whether they are for street use or track. The damping rates are expressed in two numbers, rebound over compression. These number are expressed in kilograms or pounds at a certain velocity, depending upon the maker. For example, an RSR shock for the 73-89 911 has 180/170; rebound/compression damping rates. The rear Turbo(930) dampers are 136/65 for comparison. Some dampers are adjustable (Koni-JRZ-Moton) and some are not (Boge). Either way, the object is to have the dampers adjusted to match the street/track surface, spring rates, and sprung/unsprung weight of the car. A common mistake in setting up a street 911 is to have too much compression damping in the front end. Many people install sport-type dampers on the front needlessly, and suffer the consequences of an insensitive and skittery front end. Another common mistake is to have the ride height too low in the rear. When the rear dampers bottom in a corner due to surface changes or weight transfer, the effective spring rate goes to infinity and the car can spin quite quickly without much warning. This can be quite exciting! Using dampers that are shorter than the stock ones will really help. There are three ways to set the dampers correctly. First, install double adjustable types, such as some of the Moton or JRZ’s, and experiment with settings until the car feels better and the lap times confirm this. Second, use off-the-shelf components that have been optimized by the manufacturer. Third, use those same parts that have been re-valved with a custom setting optimized for your car by someone with experience and knowledge in this area. All three are quite acceptable methods and vary only in the time required to set the car up. The MacPherson struts used on the front suspension present a different set of challenges. Porsche has used Bilstein, Boge, Koni, Fichtel & Sachs, and Woodhead struts on the front of these cars since 1965. The manufacturers have conveniently painted these components in their proprietary colors to make identification much easier. Bilstein’s are always Green or Yellow, Koni’s are Reddish Orange or Yellow, Boge’s are usually Black, and Woodhead's are usually Blue. All but the Bilstein struts share the same basic configuration and design. The High-pressure DeCarbon design used by Bilstein allows the damper to be operated in any position. To lower unsprung weight, these attach to the body at the top of the strut so that the unit ‘s heavy end is bolted to the car instead of the suspension arm. Bilsteins basically operate in the "upside down" position, compared to the other brands of dampers and H&R struts employ the same technology. Bilstein’s design has another advantage for the 911/930 owner, the ability to place the spindle in a more optimum location on the strut tube for better geometry and handling. Since the damper cartridge is "upside down", the tube body is a uniform diameter with no hydraulics behind the support tube. This allows one to relocate the spindle upward, to restore lost suspension travel after lowering the car. This will raise the front roll center back up where it belongs and restore lost suspension travel. The spindle height limit is determined by the choice of wheel diameters. 15" wheels allow no more than 18mm change in spindle height due to ball joint interference with the inside rim. Using larger wheels will allow higher spindle heights. When the spindle is raised, the steering arms must be reshaped to correct the inherent bump steer. This must be done very carefully in a jig made for this purpose. There are also modifications to the tie-rod ends that allow fine tuning of the bump steer curves. Anti-Sway Bars Anti-sway bars, commonly called "sway bars", are transverse torsion bars that attach to each side of the suspension arms. These function by offering varying degrees of resistance to body lean and lateral weight transfer. Changing the position of the attachment point or the length of the moment arm that the torsion bar acts on, allows you make adjustments in the effective stiffness of a given bar diameter. Some bars offer slider adjusters, spaced mounting holes, or rotating blades to allow you to fine tune the stiffness. There are even some bars that feature cockpit adjustable units that allow you to adjust the chassis balance for fuel load and track conditions. These are for racing only since the adjustment tower is placed where the passenger’s feet are. Installing bars of larger diameter will also increase the lateral stiffness. Using the swaybars as part of the overall suspension system is necessary for chassis balance. There are several opinions on this, but we feel that the vehicles’ springs should carry the majority of the desired roll stiffness, not the swaybars. These should be used as tuning tools, not primary roll stiffness components. To that end there are several factors to consider when selecting and using swaybars to make your 911/930/964/993/996/Boxster handle better. One is swaybar mounting methods, the other is chassis stiffness. Mounting methods vary most with the 911/930 series. The Porsche factory offered two types of front mounts, the through-the-body style used from 1965 to 1973 /Turbo 75-76, and the bottom style, used from 1974 to 1989. The rear bars also varied slightly where the droplink attached to the suspension. The early style is superior, and in fact necessary if you wish to install an adjustable front bar. The Factory bottom-mount bars have no provision for adjustment and have unfavorable geometry for doing so. The earlier, or through-the-body swaybar must be mounted correctly to prevent damage to the body. Also, the rear swaybar mounts need reinforcement if large sticky tires are utilized, otherwise they are liable to be torn off due to stress. Several manufacturers provide different swaybars to the Porsche aftermarket, including Porsche Motorsports for the late 964-993-996 based cars. Depending upon one’s budget, you can use the swaybars made by TRG, Vision Motorsports, and the famous "Charlie Bars" designed by Wrightwood racing. These all vary in price, quality, and durability. Like anything else, you get what you pay for. Generally speaking, these should be installed in pairs so that you can adjust the roll stiffness and roll couple of the car at each end. These are available in sizes from 19mm to 25mm. Custom sizes are also available at extra cost from the various vendors. Adjustable droplinks are extremely important for removing swaybar preload. Pre-load is caused by the car not sitting perfectly level on its suspension and pre-stressing the swaybars so that the bar is loaded more on one side of the car. This can be adjusted away by using spherical-bearing adjustable length links between the swaybar end and the suspension part that it attaches to. Adjustable droplinks are available for the front and rear and allow the swaybars to be adjusted to function uniformly in right or left turns. This also removes any cross-weight that has occurred as a result of pre-loading. The performance of any aftermarket swaybar is dependent upon chassis stiffness. Targas, Cabriolets, and 914s may not respond the same way as a Coupe when using large swaybars, due to chassis flex. These cars will require additional chassis reinforcement to take full advantage of suspension upgrades. The 996 Cabriolet's are far stiffer than their predecessors and do respond very nicely to suspension upgrades.

Note: This is a 911 article. Relevant to 914´s is information up until the 1989 model