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Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 07:06 PM

So I can't (and won't) argue with Jake's policies or pricing. Hell, I helped publicize his acheivements and remain very impressed by them. So let's NOT DEBATE THEM here -- please take that to another thread.

In the meantime, though, I think $5,000 (carbs and ignition included?) seems a far more approachable number for a lot of people. I wouldn't expect to get anything but short-lived junk for $1,300 to $2,600 -- unless I was building it myself.

So what are the possibilities at $5,000 to maybe $6,000? What kind of power, what kind of longevity? Could 120 or 130 hp be so hard to get with decent longevity?

I ask it more as theory and as a business opportunity/service someone could provide the community with -- someone who is well-known as a good engine builder. The 2.0-liter (based on a 1.7) in my 1973 914 has not left the chassis since at least 1986 -- it ain't got much power, but it was obviously built right.

Rather than specific answers, I am hoping to open up a direction of travel for Type IV owners on a real-world budget and (hopefully) a resource to fit that niche.

Or am I alone?

(running for cover)

pete

Posted by: Flat VW Nov 29 2005, 07:10 PM

Posted by: scotty b Nov 29 2005, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 05:10 PM)

Holy crap. I've got butter rushing through my veins already. How much more popcorn can I eat? I'm crapping cobbs now, no poo just solid corn cobbs

Posted by: MattR Nov 29 2005, 07:15 PM

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/product.php?productid=16306&cat=308&page=1

Under 5 grand. I know you dont want specific answers, but you're paying for jake's time. Its worth a lot. Buy one of his kits, which should be good for 170 hp 165 ft lbs (according to his site), and you're set.

Posted by: Joe Sharp Nov 29 2005, 07:25 PM

I have a 2056 that I have over 5K in and its still D-Jet. I spent a lot of time in the porting. Balancing the pistons and end balancing the rods. Rimco did all the machine work. If you can't do all of that stuff 5K is not enough.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe



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Posted by: gregrobbins Nov 29 2005, 07:33 PM

Here is my two cents for a street motor with a little extra kick.

Start with a 2.0L motor. Clean up the heads. To keep costs down, build a 2056, add a cam, and keep it fuel injected using MegaSquirt or something similar. Heat is a concern, so add an oil cooler and tuna can.

Should be about $2500 to $3000 in parts and machine work, and I have heard of VW mechanics who will build motors or $750 to $1000. Figure a little more for someone who knows the Type IV.

Race engine? NO
Last 100000 miles? Probably not.
Better than stock, especially 30 year old stock? Sure

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 07:33 PM

Its pretty much impossible to do... Especially in turn key form with any time at all spent on assembly.

The parts to build the engine correctly will generally cost 5K.

The going rate for a STOCK rebuild at any Porsche shop has been more than 5K since about the year 2,000

To do any engine for 5K thats more than a 2056 would pretty much demand half assed assembly and shoddy attention to detail... There are plenty of those possibilities out there if you want something thats built by someone who is more than likely an illegal alien working for less than minimum wage...

Sorry- just the facts.

More and more individuals are buying my kits and having a local builder ssemble it for 1/2 my labor charges or less..... I have even been selling kits to my competitors because it makes their assemblies go faster and that makes them money!

If it was the old days and you could get employees that weren't hoked on drugs, didn't steal from you and didn't think they should make MORE money than the owner does it may be possible to build cheaper engines for less money- not in 2005, not in todays world!

Posted by: billswim Nov 29 2005, 07:35 PM

5 grand including carbs and ign might be a little optimistic to get anything reliable. That said 5K does go a long way not including install, set-up etc. My builder builds really good motors that last and WIN races. The motor in our race car is ten years old! There are too many combinations to list and evaluate and while Jake may know his stuff, most people don't need to spend 11K-19K on a motor for a 5 thousand dollar car. For 5K a whole lot can be done and the stock FI is pretty good up to about 25% more output than stock.

PM me for specific details about building a motor.

Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 29 2005, 07:39 PM

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 05:33 PM)

There are plenty of those possibilities out there if you want something thats built by someone who is more than likely an illegal alien working for less than minimum wage...

i think we call them undocumented workers now since we found out that they are from the planet earth.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (billswim @ Nov 29 2005, 05:35 PM)

while Jake may know his stuff, most people don't need to spend 11K-19K on a motor for a 5 thousand dollar car.

Thats the reason why I have limited what I'll do for the 914.... Most cars that get my engines sell for much more than any 914 will...

10 years ago I was building engines that sold for more than 5K as a 2056.

wanna cheap out- Buy a Suby..... I hate to admit that, but its the truth.

Posted by: fiid Nov 29 2005, 07:42 PM

$5000 will buy you around 5 WRX motors which will put out a combined 1250HP (when tuned to produce 250hp each) and assuming you get 100k out of each one (driving 12k a year) they will last for almost 42 years.



Sorry.

Incidently - I think it ought to be possible to put together type IV engines for reasonable money that last a reasonable time and put out better HP. I bet if Jake put together a mild combo for 5k he'd sell a lot more (in line with supply and demand) - but somone has to service the top end of the market. Perhaps he ought to do a franchise or something.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 07:43 PM

Go ahead... Install radiators in ALL of them, I don't give a damn anymore....

Hell I think I'll sell mine and let someone chop it up and ruin it too!

I have been looking for a 356 to German look anyway!

Posted by: fiid Nov 29 2005, 07:45 PM

Yeah - it's a shame to cut the car up esp. when there aren't so many of them around. I do feel bad about it... at least until the boost kicks in.

Posted by: firstknight13 Nov 29 2005, 07:45 PM

ok all you guys take your cars to MEXICO for paint/ bodywork. don't they have " ENGINE BUILDERS"????? no i did say "engine builders" NOT artists like JAKE!!! (semper fi)

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 29 2005, 08:00 PM

There is clearly a market for Jakes motors. The best to him. Jake came here and stated some things that started a real interest in cost vs value. If he hadn't this topic would never have been posted. I had NO idea a 914 motor could cost well over $ 10,000.00 much less sky rocket over $ 20,000.00! Holy Crap!

I've been thinking about this all day. In fact I started researching part prices and talking to local machine shops.

I have a question as well. Well a question, and a statement. After skimming through May 2005 Excellence article titled 911 Engine Displacement Bumps written by Jim Pasha. I couldn't help but be drawn to the statement about life of the lower end of the 911 engine. The artitcle states a normal life is 200,000 or something.

Q.) How many miles can we expect to get from a lower end of the type IV?

My reason for asking is not to start a whole new debate about only doing upper end rebuilds on Pete's thread, but to find out if any mods done to the stock lower end extend the life. And if so what mods are required/useful.

My reason for wanting to know is investigative for pricing USEFUL, meaningful mods.

If the brain trust here agree the lower end is not the weak link and general parts are fine then we should discuss what is practical/meaningful for upper end work.

It seems there is alot of motors that die not as a result of lower end trouble, but heads caused by injection or ignition failures.

My shop manager purchased a 914 from Brad Mauyer. Brad stated his rebuild was good for 125hp. We never dyno'ed the beast but judging from the way that car drove compaired to my stock 1.7 I believe him!



Now where's that popcorn smiley....

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 29 2005, 08:40 PM

Rick you hit the nail on the head....I believe that the bottom-end of the Type IV is very well designed...the top end sucks (in stock form).

but what can we do to improve the life of the top-end?

*repair FI systems in order to get the ECUs to properly mix fuel and air? (that was my problem with the 2.0)
*better materials in jugs and heads(raby has an answer here)
*DTM?

i mean someone SURELY did something about these problems in the 70s, or designed around them...or did they always run hot and require head repairs every 70k miles?

(edit) rick, while I agree with you about the t4 bottom-end being better than topend, you probably should consider the odd occurance of the cams being ground flat after a rebuild....

Posted by: jd74914 Nov 29 2005, 08:43 PM

DTM is for stressed engines. A semi-stock or even mildly modded one is OK with stock cooling


Pete: For the record, cause i'm kinda confused, what kind of rebuild are you talking about? A little hopped up stock one or something kinda wild?

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 29 2005, 08:47 PM

I dont think cooling with sticks is a very efficient process

Posted by: wilchek Nov 29 2005, 08:48 PM

this is a rough estimate but it does include carbs. I am sure there is at least 500 worth more of parts missing. I think I would go to jake and just buy one of his kits. As a friend once said, it is not about the money, YOU WILL LOOSE MONEY ON THESE CARS AND YOU WILL ENJOY DOING IT. To me it is all about the journey and the challenge of building the engine. If you don't want to do it yourself be ready to open your wallet.




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Posted by: jkeyzer Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years?

Who did the work?

How much did it cost?

Does it still run?

Posted by: jd74914 Nov 29 2005, 08:54 PM

Thats what I'm wondering, cause thats what I'm going to be doing on christmas/winter break

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 29 2005, 08:55 PM

considering that a 911 has a dry sump oil system and has what 10 gal of oil, no wonder they last long.

type 4 have 4 qts of oil, a oil filter and if its changed regularly every 6k the bottom end will last nearly 200k. The heads thou usually are toast around 100k (guide wear out).
911 motors have Alsul or Nikasil cylinders which really help cooling and last 200k. Type 4's atleast 914's have decent quality pistons and cylinders that can last 150 to 200k, as I have seen it.

So for around $5-6k you can get a nicely rebuild 110-120hp 2056 that will last if you start with one thats not been abused.
includes
rebuild 2.0l heads
new P&c's
machine work
bearings
cam & lifters
misc
labor (yours) free!

Can you rebuild (not refresh) a 911 for that? No.

I rebuilt mine in 99 for $3k and had to refresh the top end due to a ring problem after 10k of miles, for another $2k including a new cam and lifters plus pistons. I drive the piss outta it and still have the crappie Djet.

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 29 2005, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM)

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?

if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote)

why build anythign other than stock?


b

Posted by: MattR Nov 29 2005, 08:55 PM

I remember when I had one of those nice little excel spreadsheets with all my reciepts and purchases and planned purchases. Wow, those were the days...

Now I open up wellsfargo.com and check to see how much money is left.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 29 2005, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:55 PM)

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 08:53 PM) Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?   if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b

more fun.... can never have enough.

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 08:58 PM

Remember that the labor guide calls for 22 hours to rebuild a stock TIV engine... That does not include and balance or machine work other than what the Bentley dictates, which isn't much at all... The stock specs for pistons gives 5 grams of variance as an acceptable variance and thats 10 times more than should be allowed...(as an example)

Most shops these days charge a minimum of 55 bucks an hour and thats here in the backwoods- Metropolitan areas can be upwards of 85 bucks/hour and some Porsche shops 100 per hour.... So do just that math on the labor of a STOCK engine with not a single update and see what you get.. Also realize that these manuals have not been updated since 1981 as far as their time tables are concerned, so all the extra wear over the 30 year period is not covered and they are not including any time to paint/powdercoat sheetmetal, or even wash the extra crud off thats accumulated after 30 years.....

With that said- I'm done.. This post was about a 5K buck TIV and I sure as hell can't sell you one of those- so why did my name even get dragged into it if my product cost TWICE that much??

You guys can hate me all you want, think I'm expensive as hell if you wish and I really don't give a damn... This bullshit has wasted too much of my time lately and I'm done with it! I posted my standardized engine prices for a 2270 and 2316 with all the specifics and if you want one great- get in line.. If you don't I'll sell you the parts to do it yourself.... If you wanna lay the blade to it and create a Rice/Kraut hybrid then do so.

Forget that I exist for a while- Hell maybe Stromberg will come back in hnere and start posting- He'll sell you a damn engine for 5K proudly!

I have an engine to build- Bye.

Posted by: jkeyzer Nov 29 2005, 09:01 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM)

if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b

Hey Britt, if you don't have anything to add....

I am looking for a data point that I think we are missing.

Posted by: wilchek Nov 29 2005, 09:01 PM

Jake where are those prices, I can't find them. Thank You for the info.

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 29 2005, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 09:01 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM) if your not racing or want "ludricious speed" (spaceballs quote) why build anythign other than stock? b Hey Britt, if you don't have anything to add.... I am looking for a data point that I think we are missing.

what data point are we missing?

i'm done, sorry if i am getting in your way or anything.....

Posted by: MW 914 Nov 29 2005, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 06:58 PM)

You guys can hate me all you want, think I'm expensive as hell if you wish and I really don't give a damn... This bullshit has wasted too much of my time lately and I'm done with it! I posted my standardized engine prices for a 2270 and 2316 with all the specifics and if you want one great- get in line.. If you don't I'll sell you the parts to do it yourself.... If you wanna lay the blade to it and create a Rice/Kraut hybrid then do so. Forget that I exist for a while- Hell maybe Stromberg will come back in hnere and start posting- He'll sell you a damn engine for 5K proudly!

With that, I am sure the line will start forming outside your shop any minute....

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 29 2005, 09:11 PM

Britt, That why I posed the question. If we agree the lower end can be left alone (check the balance, recon and balance rods, etc.) Maybe (a useful) oiling system mod. Then by spending the money in the upper end HP and torque numbers should be good.

Based on my limited type IV experience I would say The lower end can handle lots more HP then you could produce by adding upper end mods.

I agree that the cams can be a source of worry.

Has anyone ever come to a conclusion about the use of any of the aftermarket FI units? What ever happened to Kit Carson?

You would think in this day and age a programable FI would be a cinch... Or at least do-able at the cost of carbs.




(Torque = the true measure of a motors ability to move mass)

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 09:27 PM

Jake, your name was mentioned precisely because I did NOT WANT YOU DRAGGED into this. I read all of your posts in the "other" thread and thoght it best not to comment on them there -- or here.

I think ALL of your positions are well defended -- and noted. I also think your views, expertise, and feedback are both valued and respected here.

What I was looking for was views and thoughts from OTHERS in a separate thread. In that sense, I am almost disappointed you replied within this thread -- though I ALWAYS like reading what you have to say. I just wanted to hear the voices of others in a thread that is NOT going up against you or your company.

The title of the thread alone should make it clear it does not apply to Raby motors.

Period.

That said, the kit is a good way of going -- if somebody has the time and space and skill to build their own motor.

That also said, I do not think it's fair or reasonable to say spending $5,000 for a rebuilt engine in a $5,000-10,000 car is "cheaping out." We don't all have $10,000 to $20,000 in disposable income. And that's okay -- just like it's okay to spend it iffn' you got it. If I did, I'd be probably be buying a pretty trick Type IV motor.

No, the thing I am trying to open the discussion to is what the REST OF US see as a reasonable value for roughly $5K. Top-end rebuild only, rebuilt 2056 that's ready to adopt your old D jet, etc.

What are the possibilities at $5K, a sum I suspect is far more realistic for many 914clubbers, a sum that might be justifiable to spouses, college funds, and from Christmas bonuses.

There are already some good replies and feedback here. I think the carbs and ign was a stretch too far.... so what can be done with D jet for $4-6K labor included?

What about this top-end theory? The 911 people all seem to have so much collected wisdom from so many sources that there is a default answer for almost every question -- whether or not it's absolutely true.

The same can't be said for Type IV motors -- and while I respect the views of the established expert, there are others I really respect here too, like JP Stein, Rick, Aaron (well... ), and more... There is a lot of COLLECTED wisdom here. If I screwed up this thread by how I started it, please, someone start another one.

And, tempting as a Subie may be, I'm not there yet.

Flame on -- but let's NOT make this a Jake vs. the world (or me) thread. It was started separately for that very reason. I do NOT question his pricing or policies. I just want to LEARN about the other options and evaluate them for myself.

I would think others could benefit from the same discussion.

pete

Posted by: jd74914 Nov 29 2005, 09:37 PM

Kinda unrelated, but important.

Everyone voicing opinions is pretty much going the totally new engine route. What is so wrong with taking a tired engine, disassembling it, seeing what, if anything it wrong, putting a new gasket set and new rings on (maybe valve guides) and slapping it together and running it?

I'm not really understanding how $5000 goes so fast in just a top end rebuild. For a 2056 or something mild there are no point to Nickies or stuff like that. What sucks up all of the money? Or is it just that everyone wants to go for strokers?

And lastly, I've read about people using Rabbit rods and Chevy pistons on strokers, does anyone know anything about the subject because I think building an engine with these parts would be rather interesting, as well as cheaper (and with a better supply of aftermarket stuff in a sense).

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 09:37 PM

Okay, re-read my original post and edited it -- can see how it did not accomplish my goal very well.

Posted by: d914 Nov 29 2005, 09:37 PM

Jake's stated goals are only 30-40 engines a year so I don't understand his agressive stance here. His motors are gold no discussion. they are taken to the "N" degree no disussion. But by jakes own admission he can't handle nor wants to handle the middle of the bell curve.... That said...

I think that the top end study sounds interesting. And what ever happened to Kit carson. Alot of us have carbs in good shape, adding the newer dizzies wouldn't be that expensive, but a newer tunable(sp) affordable injection system still sound sweet..

Posted by: Demick Nov 29 2005, 09:37 PM

I rebuilt my motor to a 2056cc in my garage a little over a year ago. About $3500 in parts and machining. Nearly half of that went into the heads. That was just the engine itself - no carbs, no ignition. I built it with 100K mile longevity in mind. Time from pulling the engine to having a running car again: 6 weeks.

Demick

Posted by: Howard Nov 29 2005, 09:43 PM

I LOVE my stock 2.0 FI. But I picked up a 2.7 CIS six at fire sale prices in case the type IV goes out. About same $$ to rebuild, and think it would make me happier longer.

With decent Boxsters going for under $15K, it's hard for me to justify the cost of a good type IV rebuild for a street car.

Incoming... Running for cover......

Posted by: Travis Neff Nov 29 2005, 09:48 PM

5k I would think would be a stock rebuild, or a 2056 with a carb cam and carbs, with a good balance job and headwork. Probably 115hp? I dunno.

Jake I think you are a bit on the defensive here, and there should be nothing to defend on your part. So stop the tears.

Posted by: lapuwali Nov 29 2005, 09:50 PM

Since the el cheapo engine builders will sell you a "pile of junk" Type IV for under $2K, and the retail prices of the parts involved add up to under $3K, seems to me there's a lot of room there for someone to start building decent $5000 2056 longblocks.

Jake clearly isn't going to do it, but I see no problem with that. There has to be a supplier of "the best" in any market. Most people can't afford the best, but they can afford to not buy junk. The gap between ImportMotors and Jake is awfully large. There seems to be no "mid-market" supplier here.

I've emailed Jake privately several times suggesting that he basically turn his shop into an R&D operation. It's clearly what he enjoys doing, and there's obviously enough money to be made in making ultra-quality 20 engines per year that he can finance this. He could make a good deal more money by licensing his "basic" engine designs (like the "standard" engines he's talked about) to some other shops that simply buy up lots of parts and assemble the engines. He's never responded, but I suspect he's simply not interested, and he has too much ego tied up in his work to farm anything out.

Up to the late 1980s, the import laws in Italy made it nearly impossible to economically import any parts from outside the EU (or even Italy). The Italian parts manufacturers made either cheap junk, or the very best stuff available. Nothing in between. So, you ended up with things like Ducatis with marvelous engines that had cheap switchgear that fell apart in 10 minutes, and shoddy fiberglass work that looked like a10 year old made it after he'd had his first beer. Or Bimotas that had tool-room quality everything, but cost 10 times as much as a Japanese bike. Sales were low. In the early 1990s, the import rules changed, and suddenly Ducati could afford to buy from Japan. The Japanese were and are wizards and producing a wide range of products from the top to the bottom of the cost and quality scales. Overnight, Ducatis sprouted Japanese carbs, suspension, and electrics. Quality zoomed up, but the prices didn't. Ducati sales went through the roof, because for the first time, Italian engineers could build to a cost without sacrificing quality completely. Bimota still exists, and for those who want and can afford top-quality, they can still get it.

Posted by: ChicagoChris Nov 29 2005, 09:51 PM

Yes it can be done!

With all due regard to Jake and the “Speed is expensive. How fast do you want to spend?” crowd. I know it is possible to get a good, reliable, respectably powered engine for under $5000. I did it about three years ago. A good local machine shop and some basic skills can do it. The following is a bit over simplified but I can give you excruciating detail if you want it.
I had a 1.8 turned into a 2.0 in the car already. But I decided to build a 2.0. So here is the formula I used. Do your own work. I tore down the engine myself. I took pictures and notes as I went. Sent the heads and bottom end to my local (reputable) machine shop. I had them inspect and test (magnaflux) the crank and rods. I also had the case line bored. I got a slightly more aggressive cam from Elgin cams. I had the shop build the bottom end. I also had them inspect and machine the heads. (I can send a PM for exactly what I had machined) That included fixing a few seats. My total from the shop was less then $800. The cam was $150 I think. I took all the pieces home and did the top-end myself. Sorry Jake it isn’t brain surgery. I had a good book and a few lessons I learned on my first motor (the 1.8) all the parts and labor went just over $3000.
Don’t neglect the cooling. I went with the deep pan and a better oil pump. I removed the cooler and went with an external to improve the cooling to the #3 cylinder also. To coin a phrase; “She’s been ridden hard and put away wet.” I have had so much fun and not a lick of trouble. Keep the cam friendly with the EFI or carb choice and have at it.
As an aside I had it on a dyno making 130bhp.

Chris

Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 29 2005, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (jkeyzer @ Nov 29 2005, 06:53 PM)

Has anyone on the forum had a stock motor rebuilt STOCK within the past 2-3 years? Who did the work? How much did it cost? Does it still run?

yes, by a fantastic mechanic in Denver. i got his old hourly rate of $75, but i think it has since increased to $90. i will have to dig up the invoice for the price, but it was between $4-5k and it was completed earlier this year. it was a complete rebuild with the euro mahles. and YES, it still runs..........

ask any of the Colorado Gang and they will tell you how could this mechanic is.....

he did Ferg's engine install too.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 09:57 PM

Can I just re-iterate?

Let's NOT attack Jake here.



But let's KEEP talking about real-world solutions based on experience.

The last couple of posts are GREAT...

pete

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Nov 29 2005, 09:59 PM

I have to agree with Howard and Pete. A rebuilt costing more than $5k in a car which is likely to be worth no more than $10 when finished (this assumes nearly rust free, excellent body, paint, interior) makes no sense.
A friend here in Portland had a professional complete rebuild of a 2.0 done by a high quality local Porsche shop. They really didn't want to do it, and probably won't do it again.There is more money and less hassle in repair/maintenance of newer cars. He paid about $7500 and I think there may have been a new clutch and a few more extras beyond the motor work. Reinstalled the D-jet.
I think the answer for most of us is a DIY rebuild, top end only unless there is bearing noise/bad oil pressure. Farm out the head work to capable machine shop. That, or find a used running engine and get a couple of years use out of it and move on to the next one. Otherwise, expect to pay at least $8 and either keep the car long enough to get the value out in driving or expect to sell at a loss.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 10:03 PM

ChicagoChris is running exactly what I am talking about. Surely there are other great options -- and I like the idea of what might be done on a top-end rebuild.

While big power would be nice, 130 sounds good for this kind of outlay -- as does keeping the stock EFI that has only once in 15 years given me trouble.

Tell me more about the external cooler... in the rear fender, behind the front bumper, under the engine lid , somewhere by the tranny?

How hard was that?!?

pete

Posted by: MattR Nov 29 2005, 10:05 PM

QUOTE (Howard @ Nov 29 2005, 07:43 PM)

With decent Boxsters going for under $15K, it's hard for me to justify the cost of a good type IV rebuild for a street car.

That was the wrong thing to say

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 29 2005, 10:09 PM

It isn't too hard to get 130hp for $6k or less, if you already own a set of carbs in decent condition and your core engine is rebuildable. That includes the labor of someone else assembling it too, but no dyno tuning.
I just built a 2056 for a club member. It isn't quite ready to go back in the car but only because of some external parts that are missing. The finished cost will be around $6K. A lot of parts were bought from the Type 4 Store, and ceramic lifters were used. My labor is well under half the total cost. D-jet FI is being used so it probably won't make 130HP. I didn't optimize the valve lift but I did get the geometry close enough to help the valve guides last. The heads were in good shape but Len Hoffman still had to do some welding. The crank was already prepped when the disassembled engine was brought to me. The rods already had the big end resized but I had to get new wrist pin bushings installed.

Posted by: Travis Neff Nov 29 2005, 10:17 PM

I bought a used 2.0 with clutch, exhaust and FI for $800.00 came with a tune up kit to boot. Engine supposedly had about 30k on the rebuild. I tore the heads off and Cyl's still had cross hatching on them and I couldn't see any cracks in the head. I put a few hundered in new FI hoses and an injector. That price worked for me, and I guess I lucked out on getting what what was advertised.

Who's attacking Jake? Jake jumped in here swinging and telling us he basically is wasting his time here. If he wants to take his ball and run, get to stepping. No-one makes anyone stick around that doesn't want to.

I enjoy his posts on what he is working on. He knows his stuff and builds some great engines at a comensurate price.

The only reference to his engines was that what can I do at a price that is more affordable than top shelf engines from Jake? The fact that we continually get this I am wasting my time, I will not enhance any 914 products and crap like that, whatever. We are not a punching bag for a sale you have a hard time making.

Posted by: cha914 Nov 29 2005, 10:25 PM

Just as a data point...in Jan of 02, after throwing away ~2500 into a 2.0L that I tried to build (it ran, but never well, totally my fault, got in over my head without knowing enough) I sent a very nice core 2.0L to our favorite engine builder, and about 4-5k later I had a 2056 with new carbs that dynoed at 130hp @ 6300rpm and 131tq @ 4500rpm ...

The heads never go over 350 (stock cooling tin), and I only see that when pulling hard in 5th...I did need to add an external cooler to keep the oil temps under control, but they are managed well with a small 8x11" x 1.5"thick cooler up front.

I guess I am lucky that I got in line when I did, and I am sure glad that I did, not having to worry a lick about the motor has allowed me to do suspension, brake, and interior stuff, and beat the snot out of the car at autox's and country drives.

Anyway, in 02 4-5K got me 2.0L heads with welded up plugs (12mm), slight port job, new valves, HD springs, split duration web cam, KB 96mm pistons, everthing cryoed, balanced, and broken in on the dyno...I think thats about it...

Tony

Posted by: Porcharu Nov 29 2005, 10:44 PM

Ouch, that is alot of cash for a (hot rod) VW bus motor. I don't have any issues with the amount of time and work needed to make a great engine - but this is just nuts.
I have had the pleasure to work on some big power engines when I was in school (big like over 1100 hp drag stuff) and understand that detail is everything in engine building. I remember spending about 4 hours setting up an oil pump. I also built a 5.0 Ford that when 192mph in T-bird in one of the first SilverState race. It was almost totally stock - just a carefully assembled stock engine with a mild cam and 4psi of boost. I don't think it would cost more than 2k for labor and the parts cost almost nothing - just reused stock stuff.
I think Jake is correct - go Suby if you want cheap power, thats what I am doing.
With labor at 90-120/hour in the bay area I think the bill will be ugly no matter what direction you go with the T-4, at least 2K plus parts and machine shop time - all this to make ~120-130 hp.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 11:00 PM

No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. But this is NOT a $5,000 Type IV vs. Subie engines vs. $10,000 Type IV vs. $15,000 Type IV vs. Six Conversion vs. SBC thread

Giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a UT greasonable compromise. And surely one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have.



This is a thread to get an idea of what can a 914 owner get done for $5K.

So far, it seems two routes are emerging:

1. A top-end rebuild and "hottening"

2. A reasonably well done stocker with a little extra hp

There's plenty of room to expand on both!

Should I dump this thread and start one for each of the above?

pete

Posted by: JOHNMAN Nov 29 2005, 11:21 PM

Just before my current adventure (3.2 conversion in process), I had priced out rebuilding a 2.0 back to stock with FI. I was going to do all the assembly work and had shopped around for good pricing. In the end, I was estimating $5-$6k in parts and machine work.

I was going to send my heads to Len Hoffman for a total rebuild (included in my pricing), I was going to have a local machine shop do my case, connecting rods, and crank.

When I added it all up, and was discussing this with my wife, she asked why not put that money toward a 3.2 conversion (my long term goal). There it was. Easy decision. The very next day, I started shopping for the 3.2......

So, in my opinion, to rebuild a STOCK 2.0 with quality components and to get a decent machine shop to align bore the case, recondition the crank and rods, it will more than likely cost between $5-$6k (not including assembly labor).

I am positive that one could be slapped together for less, but one will end up with just that (one that is slapped together).


I completely agree with Mr. Raby's pricing as he is trying to do this for a living. Time, experience, and quality cost money.

Just my $0.02

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 29 2005, 11:23 PM

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 09:00 PM)

No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. BUT giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a reasonable compromise. And sure one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have. pete

I have the records of my 914 back to the day it was purchased, including the owners manual all stamped off up to about 90K miles....when the 2.0L was rebuilt by a dealer.
When it had 130K miles, I took it out. Compression was down in one hole to 80 psi, both heads were cracked as it turned out. 5-6 k into a rebuild is throwing good money after bad.
....unless you have a CW fetish.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 29 2005, 11:40 PM

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 29 2005, 09:23 PM)

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 09:00 PM) No question that an NA Subie with a radiator in the engine compartment is a cheaper ticket to 150-170 hp. BUT giving up 20-40 horses to keep the original style of engine in the car seems a reasonable compromise. And sure one that can be accomplished for $5-6K -- a reasonable budget if not the generous one so many wish (but may never) have. pete I have the records of my 914 back to the day it was purchased, including the owners manual all stamped off up to about 90K miles....when the 2.0L was rebuilt by a dealer. When it had 130K miles, I took it out. Compression was down in one hole to 80 psi, both heads were cracked as it turned out. 5-6 k into a rebuild is throwing good money after bad. ....unless you have a CW fetish.

I dunno...

The rebuilt motor in my 1973 914 has well over 100,000 miles on it and starts every time on the first try. Runs well, pulls cleanly, and does the job.

It's just boring with (I'm guessing) 80-90 hp.

I can't say that spending $5-6K to get the above results -- with hopefully some more power -- is a bad move. Whatever someone spent to build my motor back in 1983-85 sure seems like a good value to me now. I am guessing it was equivalent to $4-5K in today's money. And yes, time and mileage means it will a tougher job this time around.

That said, we seem to be back to Raby, and I am back to giving up and deleting this thread. This obviously can't be discussed -- and I would think engines within reason are of a LOT of interest to 914clubbers who DON'T want a six or an SBC or a Subie.

I also don't think the answer is to throw up our hands and say "well, convert it or spend $15K or just go ahead and throw the whole car away."

But I guess I think wrong...

pete

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 29 2005, 11:53 PM

Wouldn't touch this on Jake's thread because I respect him.

I can do engines cheaper, but there is the border hassles.

My labour rate right now is $55.per hr Canadian...so that’s around $47 USD.

I did laugh at the other threads prices, not because I could come in cheaper (I can) but for that level of build (bells and whistles) $11000 was a pipe dream. There's no way around the parts...you want to play you have to pay. Not to mention the fact that I won't do a build like this for a "stock build" labour rate, lets face it when I rev up a big buck engine on the stand one fuck-up and I lose big money.

The other point that made me laugh was feature creep...I've lost many a job because of this. Some guy’s think once we have a deal that I'll throw in a bunch of extras at cost and for free labour.
To be frank I usually lose these kinds of jobs because I just say no…some guys have insulted me at this point and have been told to piss off.
Luckily at this time in my life I don't need the work...If I don't like the job (or the person) I can and will say no.

Once you start down the high performance road prices begin to clime and cheaping out on the valve train can be fatal. Sure it will last long enough to cover my ass, but it is false economy.

I will use some of the customer’s parts but they MUST past my inspection or forget it. I will not compromise the build.
I.E. a guy brought me a melling pump, scat lifters, a mystery cam (huge lift to boot) and I told him it was all junk. He bailed and I was glad for it.


I have an excellent machinist but he tends to be slow, I also take my time.
I will not be rushed through my builds, not to mention you will have several builds in front of yours. Waiting to the last moment will cost you the season...too bad.

One member here (who races) didn't like this fact, my timeline wasn't to his liking. So he got his own parts 78X96mm and built it himself. He called me about an overheating problem (wanted to pick my brain) I said “sorry talk to the builder”.
That engine blew up after a few races.
He came back...still didn't like my timeline and I think he's going to try it again...I wish him the best of luck...I'm also glad he's not my customer.

Also one dude (bug guy) tried to do an end run around my profits (after picking my brain) by getting his own parts. It was big build with 103 nickies. He asked when we could start putting it together, I told him “when ever you like because I’m not building it”…he was speechless.

I have done rebuilds for under 2k (i.e. Ray Warren on this club) it got new bearings, gaskets, seals, rings and a valve job. His heads had no issues except for exhaust guides, I only polished his crank and replaced one used cylinder. His cam was in spec, polished and new lifters were used. So far he’s happy.

An average “proper” build would be more like 4k so say around $3400 USD. Could be more if your heads are crap.

I would want to check all my figures before I started throwing around numbers for the hi-po builds. Powdercoating, etc. can also be done for good prices.
I have many cores if an exchange is OK, but you would have to send your heads to me, as I have no idea if yours are OK or need major work.

But there’s still that border problem.

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Nov 29 2005, 11:56 PM

Keep trying Pete. It is a valid question and the combined wisdom of this group needs to find an answer(s).
A few years ago I bought a 2.0 which had been completely rebuilt by a local air cooled VW place in 1984. Included carb. appropriate cam and Euro. P&C's. Engine sat dry from '84 until 02. It now has about 3500 miles on it.
Total bill was $1400! That is about $2600 in '05 dollars. Engine rebuilding has obviously gone up!
By the way, I called that shop after I bought the engine to try to learn what cam was in it. They could tell me nothing and worked only on water cooled VW's.

Posted by: ThinAir914 Nov 30 2005, 12:03 AM

I just finished my rebuild in June. My goal was to build the "ultimate stock 2.0L Type IV 914 engine" - one that would keep the stock D-Jet, would not leak oil, would have a slight boost in horsepower, and would last as close to forever as possible.

This meant using the following major parts/work by others:
Euro flat-top pistons & cylinders $400 from a club member
D. Elgin Racing Cams 330-1 cam with matching lifters $400
Head work $1100
Case machining, gasket sets & stuff $735

I just added up the receipts for the first time and I came up with about $2800 for parts and labor that I did not do myself. My fat fingers had a hard time on the calculator and I may have missed some receipts so I'm guessing that I'm actually in for about $3200. That's for every nut, washer, can of paint, gasket set, 10 different sealants, etc, including the tubing and stuff for relocating the fuel pump to the front (since I had the engine out), the syringe for cc-ing the heads, and the rental for a dial indicator gauge.

I built the engine myself. This is partially because I could not afford to have someone else do it for me, but mostly because I just wanted to do it myself. So I paid folks to do stuff that I couldn't do and did everything myself that I could.

The result is an engine that after 3700 miles has not dripped even one drop of oil and has performed exactly like I have wanted in every way. My only disappointment was that I wanted to still use 87 octane fuel, but after 500 miles I was getting run-on after shutting off the ignition and some testing has shown that I need to run 89 octane. The compression was calculated to be 8.1:1, but I wonder if it is a tad higher. Had I known that I was crossing that line from 87 to 89 I could have bumped up the compression a little more and gotten some more HP, but I'm not going to complain.

I will say that regardless of cost, I could not have done the rebuild without Jake's Type IV video, his advice when buying cylinder shims to adjust the deck height, and the collective knowledge of the folks on this site. I've done a lot of Type 1's since 1980, but this was my first Type IV where I didn't pay someone to build the long-block. I was very nervous about it, took it very slowly and carefully, and am very pleased with the result.

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 30 2005, 12:08 AM

I went back and re-read my first post and changed the wording. I'm moving forward I hope. nuf said

Pete, I like your idea and your comments. I hope I haven't rubbed you the wrong way here. I think your question is valid. I was going to start a simaler thread myself tonight.


I will tell you honestly before you posted this thread today I was looking into the cost thing for the type IV.

I agree that the stock motor is less than thrilling. that's what started my whole conversion. I also agree that 125-150 hp is do-able. This engine has been built for longer than some members here have been alive. The $ 5000.00 number may be tight. Lets debate it.

We need a real world test engine. An average engine in running condition with no real issues. I'm talking typical stuff, low compression, cracked heads, in need of a fresh cam, etc. Then we'll see what can be done on a budget.

I'm looking forward to all the new information as things start to form here. Please don't delete the thread.

Maybe we should put up some cash as a club and donate it to Pete. He can get his engine rebuilt based on a proven formula and do a write up in Excellence on the whole thing.

914 power on a budget.

Posted by: J P Stein Nov 30 2005, 12:20 AM

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 09:40 PM)

I also don't think the answer is to throw up our hands and say "well, convert it or spend $15K or just go ahead and throw the whole car away." But I guess I think wrong... pete

Hay, now don't be gettin' all pissy. This is a discussion, not an arguement.
I stated my opinion and it's mine.

I have no huge attachment to the 914 in general. I'm a car guy
and just kinda fell into the 914 gig......I had no idea I was gonna spend a pee pot fulla money & time on the thing when it all started.

At the time, it was a summer driver.
I was faced with an engine that was tired and went thru the situation that you have presented. I didn't "throw the whole car away" but went a different direction.

I did my research as to what to do about it. I looked first at the T-4.....this was in 96-97. This was (for me) pre-Internet. Information was damn scarce .....except in Bug mags which was enuff to turn anyone off. Did some phone callin'. Read what your Mr. Anderson had to say. Read your mag....what little there was about T-4s. Read Vols 4 thru 8 of upfixen'....became a not T-4 guy. These things happen.

So, my conclusion was different than yours. That is what makes life interesting

Posted by: lagunero Nov 30 2005, 12:28 AM

My 2056;
long block 500
jake raby parts 1600 (Mallory dist,rods,96KB pist, rings, FF oil pump, cam/gear, gasket kit, springs n stuff, bearings,lifters, 911 clutch, PressPlate....)
rimco mach. work 900 (heads, SS values, tap case, align bore, liten flyw.....)
weber 40 idf (used) 350
rebuild carbs and extra guts 300 (I well overpaid)
cb perf. linkage n stuff 350
accel cable 40
mocal oil cooler n thermostat 180
AN lines n fittings 120
magnecor wires 45
rotary fuel pump and fuel lines 125
flowers for my wife 60
=4630 so far on this list
extras like muffler, ceramic lifters, Pcoat, etc. added about 1200 to my bill. DIY labor. you can build for less but I didn't try.
110-120 HP?
60K life?

Posted by: messix Nov 30 2005, 12:28 AM

how about me? i have a 120K mile original motor 1.8 doesn't smoke, leak and starts well. how about the club donate to rebuild to a L-jet compatible up grade?

Posted by: Lou W Nov 30 2005, 12:31 AM

This is all good stuff.

Posted by: messix Nov 30 2005, 12:34 AM

if you guys don't i'll be forced to build a 400 hp small block chevy for $3k and buy up every 901 tranny i can find and have fun till i get to $11k

Posted by: brant Nov 30 2005, 12:44 AM

Somebody correct me If I'm wrong here....
but I'm not so sure that a type 4 bottom end is nearly as robust and bullit proof as theorized in this thread.

I remember reading a article/interview with one of the porsche engineers about the development of the 2.0/4 and all of the extensive testing, blown motors, and headaches they went through when doing preliminary work on the 1.7 VW motor they wanted to use as a 2.0 in the 914

this is only ancedotal, but haven't there been lots of old threads with lots of experts telling people that doing a top end only on a worn bottom end was a time bomb?

I'm not sure that I would go along with the "top end only" unless I did some more research and spoke with some of my local mechanics (like Greg's) that I fully trust.

brant

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 30 2005, 12:52 AM

QUOTE (brant @ Nov 30 2005, 12:44 AM)

Somebody correct me If I'm wrong here.... but I'm not so sure that a type 4 bottom end is nearly as robust and bullit proof as theorized in this thread. I remember reading a article/interview with one of the porsche engineers about the development of the 2.0/4 and all of the extensive testing, blown motors, and headaches they went through when doing preliminary work on the 1.7 VW motor they wanted to use as a 2.0 in the 914 this is only ancedotal, but haven't there been lots of old threads with lots of experts telling people that doing a top end only on a worn bottom end was a time bomb? I'm not sure that I would go along with the "top end only" unless I did some more research and spoke with some of my local mechanics (like Greg's) that I fully trust. brant

thats where the flat cams and such comes in.....

its easier to toast a t4 topend than bottomend.....


b

Posted by: Mr.C Nov 30 2005, 01:03 AM

My $240 cheap bastard as you can get blasphemous re-conditioned 1.7.
bearings, rings, honed, re-ground cam lifters, seals, lapped valves. Ran great for a hard 20,000 miles with NO smoke or oil leaks. Then sold with install for 1,500 and two years later it still runs great.
Granted all stock, re-conditioned. I did what I could and wanted to see if it would work and loving to tinker helps. At the time I was ignorant of the possibilities.....and cost. Glad I was cause I would of never (paralisis by analysis) attempted it knowing what I know now.
I just looked at it like a type 1 motor and went for it. Then again I have been told more than once I'm a little "different".




Attached image(s)

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 30 2005, 01:12 AM

the engine in the pic is a 2.0

Posted by: Mr.C Nov 30 2005, 01:14 AM

HA!!! Nope it's a 1.7. I took the 1.7 runners and cut and heated them to match the 2.0 throttle body. Pretty cool huh?

Posted by: bd1308 Nov 30 2005, 01:15 AM

QUOTE (Cabasa @ Nov 30 2005, 01:14 AM)

HA!!! Nope it's a 1.7. I took the 1.7 runners and cut and heated them to match the 2.0 throttle body. Pretty cool huh?

i'll do it....

Posted by: Mr.C Nov 30 2005, 01:19 AM

Brad at one time asked me if I was willing to pull it off and ship it to him for testing on a dyno, but I completely forgot about it.

Posted by: grantsfo Nov 30 2005, 01:23 AM

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Nov 29 2005, 07:50 PM)

Since the el cheapo engine builders will sell you a "pile of junk" Type IV for under $2K, and the retail prices of the parts involved add up to under $3K, seems to me there's a lot of room there for someone to start building decent $5000 2056 longblocks. Jake clearly isn't going to do it, but I see no problem with that. There has to be a supplier of "the best" in any market. Most people can't afford the best, but they can afford to not buy junk. The gap between ImportMotors and Jake is awfully large. There seems to be no "mid-market" supplier here. I've emailed Jake privately several times suggesting that he basically turn his shop into an R&D operation. It's clearly what he enjoys doing, and there's obviously enough money to be made in making ultra-quality 20 engines per year that he can finance this. He could make a good deal more money by licensing his "basic" engine designs (like the "standard" engines he's talked about) to some other shops that simply buy up lots of parts and assemble the engines. He's never responded, but I suspect he's simply not interested, and he has too much ego tied up in his work to farm anything out. Up to the late 1980s, the import laws in Italy made it nearly impossible to economically import any parts from outside the EU (or even Italy). The Italian parts manufacturers made either cheap junk, or the very best stuff available. Nothing in between. So, you ended up with things like Ducatis with marvelous engines that had cheap switchgear that fell apart in 10 minutes, and shoddy fiberglass work that looked like a10 year old made it after he'd had his first beer. Or Bimotas that had tool-room quality everything, but cost 10 times as much as a Japanese bike. Sales were low. In the early 1990s, the import rules changed, and suddenly Ducati could afford to buy from Japan. The Japanese were and are wizards and producing a wide range of products from the top to the bottom of the cost and quality scales. Overnight, Ducatis sprouted Japanese carbs, suspension, and electrics. Quality zoomed up, but the prices didn't. Ducati sales went through the roof, because for the first time, Italian engineers could build to a cost without sacrificing quality completely. Bimota still exists, and for those who want and can afford top-quality, they can still get it.

Yep. There is a great sweet spot there for a reputable quality builder to grab some decent business in the mid range.

Posted by: crash914 Nov 30 2005, 07:32 AM

guys, a couple of points...

The type IV bottom end is strong. problem is that a 30 year old cam is shot and required the case to be split.... not required on a -6.

so you split the case, get a new cam...any cam is ~ $150 or so. what do you use? The 30 year old profile that has known problems? get a new style cam...so now do you want some more power? get carbs or aftermarket efi...$$ Keep 30 year old Djet? it is past its life span, so you need to get a new intake system..$$

That is why when you touch a 914, you are into bucks...you split the case, so new cam bottom end, rods, etc...don't forget the lifter issue, $$$$. Then you need a new induction system..I would guess that most of them are shot. now get into head work....5K is easy to drop without even going the trick part way....

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 08:21 AM

Herb's right...most likely I can do a nice hot run 2056 for around 5k, but then you still need carbs and exhaust. Ceramic's would also add to the price...and they can be a PITA to get at times.

Group buy anyone?

Posted by: ThinAir914 Nov 30 2005, 08:46 AM

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 30 2005, 07:21 AM)

Ceramic's would also add to the price...and they can be a PITA to get at times.

When I did my rebuild I had purchased a Webcam to go in it and after months of waiting (due to cost) had called HPH to order the ceramic lifters. As we discussed the order it was revealed that the real problem with cams going flat was that the manufacturer was using $1.00 blanks from China that were crap. Using ceramic lifters was a way to avoid the problem because they would work even with the garbage material in the cam.

The real answer to the flat cam problem was the same as it's always been - matched materials. So HPH steered me to C. Elgin Racing cams, which is just down the street from them. I did a little research on their stuff - they seemed to have a very good reputation - and I ended up getting cam & lifters from them and have been very pleased. $150 for the cam & $100 for a set of lifters (if my memory is correct). Money well spent, and still well below the cost of a set of ceramic lifters alone.

Posted by: qa1142 Nov 30 2005, 09:26 AM

doing it myself...

Good "running" 2.0L core $600 with D jet plus $50 delivery - 914world.com

Heads rebuild $750 (Tuttles in calf)
new P/C $550 Euro 2.0 (Brad Mayuer)
Cam & lifters $350 (Jake)
Oil pump $40 (Jake)
bearings ~ $120 (Brad Mayuer)
'74 case $125 (Brad Mayuer)
cut flywheel $40
Cam gear $42 (Jake)
Rebuilt MPS $150 (Brad Mayuer)
bunch of stuff I am forgetting - < $500

Total without my labor ~ $2500 - $3000

Still need clutch pack....

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 30 2005, 09:29 AM

If the motor has 100k miles on it, there is no way it will last another 100k just slapping on some new rings and rebuild heads.

Opening the case and installing new bearings, cam and lifters, and rebuilt rods isnt much $$$$ say $400.

The cost is in the heads being rebuild and I mean rebuilt right. Thats about $1200 right there.


Blair is going to tear into his 2.0L and we'll try to do a budget rebuild on it.
Maybe he should start a Paypal fund......

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 30 2005, 09:33 AM

QUOTE (qa1142 @ Nov 30 2005, 07:26 AM)

doing it myself... Good "running" 2.0L core $600 with D jet plus $50 delivery - 914world.com Heads rebuild $750 (Tuttles in calf) new P/C $550 Euro 2.0 (Brad Mayuer) Cam & lifters $350 (Jake) Oil pump $40 (Jake) bearings ~ $120 (Brad Mayuer) '74 case $125 (Brad Mayuer) cut flywheel $40 Cam gear $42 (Jake) Rebuilt MPS $150 (Brad Mayuer) bunch of stuff I am forgetting - < $500 Total without my labor ~ $2500 - $3000 Still need clutch pack....

Have you dyno'd your engine to check your AirFuel mix across the rpm band with that "rebuilt"MPS?

Do it ASAP! Most rebuilts are crap and set up wrong. I have tested several of them

Blair's 2.0l looks like it got hot from running a 1.7MPS on a 2.0L and dropped a valve.

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 09:41 AM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 30 2005, 11:33 AM)

Have you dyno'd your engine to check your AirFuel mix across the rpm band with that "rebuilt"MPS? Do it ASAP! Most rebuilts are crap and set up wrong. I have tested several of them Blair's 2.0l looks like it got hot from running a 1.7MPS on a 2.0L and dropped a valve.

Yep this is a big problem where the builder seems to always catch the blame.

Doesn't matter how good a job you do, if you slap a FI or carb set up on that's out of wack it will smoke anybodys engine.

Posted by: DNHunt Nov 30 2005, 09:56 AM

I hate to say it but, we are in a pickle. The problem is there are just not enough of us. I feel that the market that we represent just won't support enough competition to drive prices down. Because of that there are people like Jake who will spend time and energy to do the best and charge for it and there are bottom feeders like who prey on us. There just isn't much market to support the middle road. Obviously there are a few exception like Mark, Jerry at NW Connecting Rod, Brad Mayeur and a few others but it's pretty slim.

The market size keeps the price of parts high too.

I suspect it will only get worse as time goes on. The only solution I see is what some people have tried on smaller things. Group purchases. Don't ask me to work out the logistics but a group of people going together to purchase identical parts in number would reduce prices. If locations could be arranged several engines could be put together at the same time or an engine builder could do several at a time driving down cost.

I've been through my engine 3 times now and it isn't that hard. Groups of people with 1 experienced builder could assemble several engine in a couple of weekends if they are identical after everything is torn down, CLEANED and machined and parts sourced.

You want reasonable $ think numbers of people.

Dave

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 10:16 AM

Yep

Say if I had 5 engines per buy, then my head guy would give me a break, my balance guy would give a break, I would pick up the cores at a close by US dock, etc., etc.

I could could pass the savings along.

You would all have to take like engines with a set number of options.

BUT I've done a couple of group buys, guys kick tires, bail, etc.
It can be a real PITA.

I have one guy who has already PM'ed me....we'll see...but I'm not expecting much.

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 30 2005, 10:23 AM

I agree with the group buy concept. But don't forget, Pete was asking if an engine could be built by a shop, not a DYI enthusist. I'm not sure Pete has the time to tear into his motor.

So, Lots of good info here, let's continue the debate.

Did anyone comment on an after market FI cost vs carbs? Did I miss that?

Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 30 2005, 10:34 AM

QUOTE (brant @ Nov 29 2005, 10:44 PM)

I'm not sure that I would go along with the "top end only" unless I did some more research and spoke with some of my local mechanics (like Greg's) that I fully trust. brant

brant,
when i first took my car to the mechanic, he recommended a top end only for my car (as a result of my dropped valve seat). i think he also did a top end only on grant's car. he was not pushing me to the whole motor at the time (b/c of costs) and said that the bottom end of these engines was pretty tough. 2 years later ( ) i decided to have the whole thing done and i am glad i did. i think he is too. as it turns out, someone had split my case once before. but with only 85k miles on the car, he was pretty confident a top end job would hold up ok. it's been good for grant so far (see his dyno thread). And i know grant pushes his car A LOT harder than i do, he just doesn't spin as much.

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 10:35 AM

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 12:23 PM)

I agree with the group buy concept. But don't forget, Pete was asking if an engine could be built by a shop, not a DYI enthusist. I'm not sure Pete has the time to tear into his motor. So, Lots of good info here, let's continue the debate. Did anyone comment on an after market FI cost vs carbs? Did I miss that?

Everyone wants something different...prices start to go up.

If this was to start happening I bet that when it's time to pony up 75% of the "buyers" will bail.

Posted by: lagunero Nov 30 2005, 10:40 AM

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 30 2005, 07:41 AM)

Doesn't matter how good a job you do, if you slap a FI or carb set up on that's out of wack it will smoke anybodys engine.

That is some of the best advice given to me before I ran the motor (thanks Clayton!) "use a set of known carbs for the break in". Even if I had rebuilt "my" carbs and set them to baseline, I had never comtemplated "something" going wrong with them.

Posted by: DNHunt Nov 30 2005, 10:57 AM

Affordable fuel injection is also a numbers thing. If there was 15 identical engines, you make 15 identical MS installations. The first one is tuned with wide band dyno time and the others get the MAP burned and away you go. Limits would probably be stock 2.0l plenum runners, maybe aftermarket injectors (Borg Warner makes a replacement for early BMW's that is a better size), stock D-jet CHT, MAT sensor, reconditioned AAR to keep it simple. If all the people could agree, the Ford EDIS system is really a pretty easy adaptation for crankfire, especially at a rebuild (Parts are cheap and easy to source). Maybe Jeff could do new harnesses.

The key to making it cheap is a large number of identical engines so that each 1 doesn't need wideband O2 other tuning stuff and dyno time.

Dave

Posted by: kwales Nov 30 2005, 11:06 AM

I guess part of the question is that a 5k motor WITH assembly labor or WITHOUT assembly labor?

Another part of the question is do you want a cheap and dirty fix or a bog reliable engine?

Another part of the question is HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO? Let's face it, speed costs money, RELIABLE speed costs more money.

Another part of the question is how confident are you that all of your used parts are up to snuff? You can throw out all the parts and go new, you can repair and regrind some of the parts, or you can mix old and new. This will reduce costs BUT: Are bearings are the right size for the crank? Is the piston bore surface ok? Is it tapered? Is the bore worn? Does the piston slap? Are the new parts as good as the old parts (God, that EMPI VW stuff on the wall of the VW store looks like CRAP compared to what used to be available)? Are the blanks for the cam and lifters Chinese crap or Chinese quality? Are your valves ok or has the metal overheated and the shaft has a thin spot from stretching (ticking timebomb)? New reworked heads or old reworked heads? And, i that sucker ballanced? That's a lotta measurement and fixing.

So, what's your mix of choices of the above? It's your dime, your level of comfort, your power choice, and your skill level in engine rebuilding.

To me, buying a 5k Raby engine kit gets you a lotta problems solved, a lotta inspection, a lotta machining done, and a lotta piece of mind. My assembly skills were learned frm my hot VW days.

Did I mention mebbe a .5x up to 2x power increase? (Based on base engine size HP for 1.7, 1.8)

Caveat Emptor! There's a lotta junk out there...

Ken

Posted by: d914 Nov 30 2005, 11:14 AM

not to write jakes business plan, or our rebuild plans , but like the big name motorcycle guys, Do they make the big money on bikes or the parts.

Jesse and crew can only make so many bikes, they can have a ton of "designed parts" made and sold.

The solution may be in the "parts" bin. Havent looked, but is there a near stock parts package available that buts us closer??? or do we ask for one??

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 30 2005, 11:14 AM

for starters, no flame job, the labor guides used for estimating a automotive proceedure is a load of crap. for instance, the heater core crapped out on one of my cars. dealer informed me that the "book" said 10 hrs. ok. dropped the car off in the am and recieved a call the repair was finished around 2pm the same day. when the settle up came due, the $800 labor bill stopped me in my tracks. i dropped the car off at 7am and it's done 7 hours later. the service manager could only reply repeatedly "that's what the book allows". "so i pay for one of your mechanics to have lunch?". if i'm going to pay for actual labor, which is fair, keeping the clock running while the mechanic goes and takes a crap, has a coffee break (just because the car is sitting in a service bay), what ever, is outright theivery.

on topic. i could live with a bump to 115hp which assuredly is a nice improvement over the less than, i am sure, the 95hp my engine produced on it's best day. stepping up to a big performance t4 is just fine if you have enough change. if you are prepared to spend the toll for an exhaust system to acheive the perfomance numbers, you are going to be one cold driver. in most circumstances the aux oil cooler looks like another expense/hassle i'd rather not have to bother with.

driving south on 101 with a few other 914s, at what is a pretty fast clip, does not require 160hp. you can move at speeds that will surely get you silver bracelets, and have you thinking i need to take my foot out of it a bit.

k

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Nov 30 2005, 11:22 AM

Not direct to Pete's question, but to amplify Dave's point, another factor in the lack of "mid-level" options is the basic nature of our car and its owners. It has always been the "poor man's Porsche". As such most of us got in with economy as a major factor. Therefore most of us are DIY'ers, no market for pros. Not sure that has changed entirely, but 914's are appreciating over the last few years and it appears we will have to pay more to play.

Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 30 2005, 11:27 AM

Wow, only $3110 buys a complete 2056 kit at the Type4store.com (Jakes not SS )


See details 2056 Porsche 914 Engine Kit-40050

If you have a serious interest in this kit, please email us and we will be happy to reply with an attachment listing all of the components contained in this kit. Thank you.
40050

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our price: $3,110.08

now all you have to do is clean/machine the case, powdercoat the tin, and the labor.
Lets see
22hrsx $75=$1650

so thats $4750
cleaning/machining case $100
powdercoating $150

So whats left out at the total of $5050?

gaskets, hoses, etc....


Damn, I don't think I take 22hrs to rebuild a motor. My problem is that I can only spend maybe 4hrs straight anytime I am at the shop/garage. I spend alot of time just rechecking what I did the last time I was there cuz I can't remember exactly what I did two weeks ago. Check lists help but.....

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 30 2005, 11:33 AM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 30 2005, 09:27 AM)

Wow, only $3110 buys a complete 2056 kit at the Type4store.com (Jakes not SS ) See details 2056 Porsche 914 Engine Kit-40050 If you have a serious interest in this kit, please email us and we will be happy to reply with an attachment listing all of the components contained in this kit. Thank you. 40050 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our price: $3,110.08 now all you have to do is clean/machine the case, powdercoat the tin, and the labor. Lets see 22hrsx $75=$1650 so thats $4750 cleaning/machining case $100 powdercoating $150 So whats left out at the total of $5050? gaskets, hoses, etc.... Damn, I don't think I take 22hrs to rebuild a motor. My problem is that I can only spend maybe 4hrs straight anytime I am at the shop/garage. I spend alot of time just rechecking what I did the last time I was there cuz I can't remember exactly what I did two weeks ago. Check lists help but.....

Now that's what I'm talking about! Good job! Now, of that kit, is there anything that can be slimmed down to make it 914 owner friendly and allow a little more room for the builder to make a buck assembling the motor? I need to check that site. I don't have time to look. I'm back to work today...

Posted by: ppickerell Nov 30 2005, 11:47 AM

?????


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Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 12:02 PM

Jake and I are starting to talk about this, but Jake has no interest in a group buy and if it was done through me he would not talk to anyone but me. Period.

I could build engines off of Jakes kits or at least key parts and keep cost down.

But let me be blunt and to the point

1/ there would be only a few options, I would break in with carbs...Period.

2/ Unless you buy my carbs at the time of the buy, if you blow it up too bad. The FI would be nice but to many hands in the pie...I don't know shit about MS...so from me it's SDS or webers or nothing.

3/ FI how do I tune it? dyno time? you just added almost $1000 (plus the FI) to the build.

5/ I must be making some coin or screw it, get someone else, I'm not a charity.

6/ I’m not expecting this to happen…If enough guys PM me I’ll look into it…But I’m not going to waste a whole lot of time on it (or even post it) till then.

Posted by: McMark Nov 30 2005, 12:14 PM

I think stock rebuilds in the $5k range are extremely do-able. You can't expect a $5k engine to be on par with the engine's Jake puts out. But in terms of just getting a motor that will have stock power (2.0) and last awhile, I think it's reasonable. I know I've talked with people about filling that niche. I built my 2056 for about $2k in parts (heads were already done). And that's fully balanced and rebuilt everything from a machine shop I trust worlds more than any other I've seen.

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 30 2005, 12:29 PM

mark h, so $1k for tuning alone:o ? what happens if things go smoothly and it takes 2 hours? pure gravy for you? is that usd?

mcmark, your about $2k is sorta unrealistic. a $100 swing is a 5% increase in cost. sourcing done heads , good cores and the rest of the serviceable items that you had on hand, would spin up the costs in a hurry.

k

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 12:37 PM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 02:29 PM)

mark h, so $1k for tuning alone:o ? what happens if things go smoothly and it takes 2 hours? pure gravy for you? is that usd? mcmark, your about $2k is sorta unrealistic. a $100 swing is a 5% increase in cost. sourcing done heads , good cores and the rest of the serviceable items that you had on hand, would spin up the costs in a hurry. k

Two hours? I couldn't even get it on the dyno in that time



That's Canadian so say $850.

It takes just a bit longer to put one on an engine dyno, than a rolling road.
Or do you expect me to put each one in my car

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 30 2005, 12:48 PM

why would the actual dyno install time be substancially longer than an owner putting one into a car? i'm not talking about a relaxed, have a cup of coffee, a smoke, whatever, work pace. hard at it sweat time. presuming you have a dyno and some sort of lift- 4 nuts, a cluster of wires (most in place on the dyno side, plug them in), fuel delivery...am i missing something? what is the acutal time (real minutes) required to set up an engine in the dyno?

k

Posted by: McMark Nov 30 2005, 01:07 PM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 10:29 AM)

mark h, so $1k for tuning alone:o ? what happens if things go smoothly and it takes 2 hours? pure gravy for you? is that usd? mcmark, your about $2k is sorta unrealistic. a $100 swing is a 5% increase in cost. sourcing done heads , good cores and the rest of the serviceable items that you had on hand, would spin up the costs in a hurry. k

HUH? I was saying I spent $2k in parts. I have the reciepts to prove it. My point is that a $5k engine is possible.

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 30 2005, 01:15 PM

i wasn't doubting that you spent $2k.

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 30 2005, 01:29 PM

Hi Guys,

Been following this post and here's my opinion. If I were doing my motor today it would be a Jake motor or use a Jake kite & put together myself. I assume it would cost me somewhere in the $5K to $6K area with about 150 hp. using carbs.

The first thing is decide how you intend to drive your 914. Stock, slightly modified, F.I. Carbs, race engine, etc. Next, how much $$ do you have to spend. I believe you can build a budget motor, but you better be ready to do some work yourself and subcontract work you don's have the tools or knowledge to do. Example, head work, welding, machining, line boring, etc. I believe the biggest mistake most 914er's make is thinking they need a race motor in a street car. 914's give lots of pleasure with a 115-120 hp. motor. Beyond that it cost lots of money and you can't use the D-Jet Fuel Injection.

When I restored my car I decided I wanted the original F.I. 2.0 liter motor with a little more power. That was (10) years ago and Jake was not around. I didn't know anything about type-4 motors & decided all modifications would be internal.
Everyone told me the best combination to make 115-120 hp staying with D-Jet F.I. is listed in the attachment (see pic). I believe this combo is still current. The only thing I would do different today is another cam. My cam combo is a little touchy at idle. I am happy with my motor and highly reccommend staying with 115-120 hp and F.I. My total build cost was $2,467.26 ten years ago. Based on inflation of 5% today's price should be about $4,500 What's wrong here???

Forgot to say to get your budget motor built look for a small shop with VW experience. If you can't find one, call Jake.

Tom





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Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 30 2005, 01:41 PM

For better or worse, I think there is some great discussion going on.

I like a couple of routes I see so far (for those who don't want to or can't build the motor themselves): Buy a 2056 kit, then go either carbs or stock f.i. -- getting a nice but not huge bump in power while still keeping heater boxes...

So what's redline like in such a combo, 5600 rpm, 6000 rpm?

I agree the stock f.i. even if it runs right, is past its projected life span. So what's involved in cleaning it up? New wires, hoses, etc? Sound and long-term simplicity of carbs is appealing, maintenance and fuel mileage less so.

Thoughts?

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 30 2005, 01:49 PM

i got just under 27mpg (adjusted for tire/speedo error) a few weeks ago driving down to the ocean. 40mm carbs, cam unkown, mallory dist. i can live with that. driving habits contribute to high fuel consumption.

k

Posted by: r_towle Nov 30 2005, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 01:48 PM)

why would the actual dyno install time be substancially longer than an owner putting one into a car? i'm not talking about a relaxed, have a cup of coffee, a smoke, whatever, work pace. hard at it sweat time. presuming you have a dyno and some sort of lift- 4 nuts, a cluster of wires (most in place on the dyno side, plug them in), fuel delivery...am i missing something? what is the acutal time (real minutes) required to set up an engine in the dyno? k

Book time is to even out the guesstimates...

The book says ten hours for a heater core...that is what they charge...if you dont like that...go somewhere else...

When you get quoted 1k to dyno tune an engine...dont argue..that is the price...if its to much..move on...

You cannot control the price from a vendor...you can control where you shop...it is that simple...

Paying by the hour of real time worked is a joke..

There is alot more overhead in running a business that needs to be paid for somehow...it comes off of every transaction...

How about the 15 minute phone call...who pays for that..you ???

When you call a lawyer...you are billed...but when you call a mechanic, you ask advice, you talk for an hour...yet that mechanic did not get paid for that hour..nor did they get any billable work done during that hour....

business has alot of complex issues that come up the minute you open up a shop that has lights and heat, and employees and so forth...

It is never going to be a simple billable rate of x per hour....its x per hour, plus ovehead...plus time loss. plus plus plus plus...

I think that what our fair canadian has offered is perfect...dont abuse him for having the balls to state his prices...dont argue with him about his prices...he gave it alot of thought...those are the prices..


If you want to open a business building engines...state your prices here...if they are cheap enough, you will get business...but with that cheap customer comes alot of expectations that you will need to manage and ensure you have a happy customer in the end...

BTW...I think for 5k a 2056 built for either Djet, or Carbs is all that should be offered...no options at all..
Two engines..one with one cam and head config...the other with a different cam and head config.

Rich

Posted by: SirAndy Nov 30 2005, 02:07 PM

QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Nov 29 2005, 06:06 PM)

The $5,000 Type IV?, What would it look like?

it would look like this ...

and if you're as lucky as i was, it'll last you at least a 1000 miles!
Andy



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Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 30 2005, 02:47 PM

It should be clarified what is to be included in the $5K engine rebuild, because whats been said so far leads me to believe there are differing opinions. Some of the discussions have been apples and others oranges. Lets be careful not to confuse the issues for the purposes of this thread.

Some may disagree and thats cool. Its has been suggested that we have to include a NEW intake system - FI, carbs, and then it snowballs into needing dyno tuning...to me thats not part of a typical engine rebuild, it is a separate issue. Engines need rebuilding because they wear out and fail mechanically, so the rebuild should be limited to mechanical refurbishment to original specs - machine work, head refurbishment, replacement of bearings, valves and guides and wear items as needed...in other words engine rebuild = long block. Its reasonable to expect a mechanical rebuild to include refinishing the tin and fastener replacement to do a responsible job because those components are related to the mechanical aspects of the engine typically worn too. But a flywheel is not an engine rebuild item...its a clutch maintenance item just as a new alternator harness is not an engine rebuild item, its an electrical system maintenance item.

The existing induction should just be a take off and bolt-on item so no dyno tuning is necessary, so all those line items are zeros.

Oh so you want to upgrade? More cc's, stroked...higher compression? Is your existing induction worn out or more expensive to repair than to replace, then those are upgrades from the original, and may require replacement or tweaking of the induction...a separate issue from an engine rebuild so budget accordingly, but don't classify those costs as a stright rebuild, they are upgrades.

I know I am one of the odd-men out here, because I am quite satisfied with the stock 1971 and D-jet. But I dont expect my 914 to perform like a race car, its supposed to be a fun, economical little daily driver to me is all and it serves that purpose very well. Its has been relatively inexpensive to operate and maintain, the D-jet works great and I have never had a problem with it, that was not a simple maintenance item, but the time will come and when it does, it will get replaced. I have no need for a high end race quality engine in my engine bay becasue it defeats the 'economical' aspect of the 914. If I wanted to spend that many Washingtons on a sports car the 914 would not be the car of choice...

A stock mechanical rebuild for my stock setup, which is what I understood Petes initial question, should be straightforward and comfortably within $5K. I figure could save about 30% of that cost if I did the labor myself and just bought parts. The minute you start talking upgrades though it gets expensive quickly because so much of it is in uncharted territory and someone has to pay for the R+D.

Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 30 2005, 02:57 PM

please point out any abusive aspect of my reply. you can save your terse "if you don't like that...go somewhere else..." for someone who gives a shit. so it's a crime around here to ask questions?

please reread my issue with the ford dealership service department. if a service will take 8 or 10 hours, fine. the car was dropped off a 7, techs clock in at 8. i doubt if they are turning a wrench within 30 minutes. break time, crap time, lunch time, brief personal phone call time, etc. my presumption that it would actually take the time quoted was an exspensive lesson learned. it had been a long time since i had service work done at a dealership, and the last. there is incentive for techs to complete under book times.

book times should be protection for the consumer, not free access to their checkbook.

k

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 30 2005, 03:13 PM

Book times... now HERE'S a whole 'nuther thread to it's own...



I would think the overhead is built into the rate. However, time wasters on the telephone is a REAL issue for mechanics. A lot of them get a firewall (phone answerer that JUST makes appointments) for that very reason.

One local Porsche dealer puts a lot of value on techs who can get the job done in less than the allotted time -- there's a bit of a competition among the techs for top-dog status in this regard. To do it, shortcuts are taken. And no, the customer doesn't reap any of the savings.

Of course, one customer should not pay for another's tough job -- and I would be mad if I paid for 10 hours of labor when my car was only in for 6 or 7. Now, if the advisor was smart and said two techs were working on my car, I'd have nothing to argue...

But there is another side: There are a LOT of shops and good mechanics that eat it on jobs that took them, say, 15 hours and they could only charge for 10 because the book time says 10 hours and the customer whines about paying the mechanic for what they should -- fixing THEIR problem.

So this is ANOTHER issue. Let's put it in another thread.

pete

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 03:14 PM

Well said Jeff and Pete

The real question is how much is a good engine and your 914 worth to you. A few guys here have had major issues with engines they've bought, Andy and Rich have been burned.

Dyno time would really only be needed for an unkown aftermaket FI set-up, with the SDS I could load my maps and get you close. Carbs I can also get you real close without it.
But your right all these are extras driving up the costs.

Unfortunetly book time doesn't work well with low run custom. I wish I had gravy just some of the time.

My machinist wants money, my powdercoater wants money, my supplier wants money, my utility company wants money, Bell wants money, my banker wants money and in the end I'd like some money.


The problem with a group buy is everyone expects and wants something different. I think it's too expensive of an item to make this fly.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Nov 30 2005, 03:26 PM

Mark,

I think you're right -- too many people have too many expectations.

But it seems like there is a market for a high-quality (but not highest quality) 2056 long-block in two forms:
-One with a hotter cam for carbs
-One with a cam compatible with D-jet.

Gets shipped to customer X and customer X either puts it in or has mechanic put it in. Either no warranty or a minimal one (hard parts yes but no dropped valves or other failures that can be attributed to setup, etc). Customer or their mechanic is responsible for transferring their own (working) injection or carbs and making the thing run.

As I plan for the future of my 914, this sounds like a good route. Or is it a pipe dream at $5,000 or so?

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 30 2005, 03:35 PM

I think it could be done...will it be done is a whole different thing.

Like I said before if I "could" get 20 guys to sign up when I say "show me the money", 15+ will bail.

At least that's what happened when I did the SDS group buy 4 years ago. Then we were only talking about $800 to $1400., not 5k.

Posted by: Flat VW Nov 30 2005, 03:41 PM

QUOTE (d914 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM)

And what ever happened to Kit Carson?

In my John Travolta voice, from the film GET SHORTY:


"Dead"

John


http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/a_c/carson.htm

I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference....
I think McMark runs one...

Posted by: Porsche Rescue Nov 30 2005, 05:26 PM

There's got to be some warranty, even at a paltry $5k. I recently spoke with a P. car wrecking yard and they offer 90 day warranty on an engine removed from a wreck (they do compression and leak down before shipping). I haven't read the fine print or bought an engine from them, but I would think a type 4 builder could at least give 90 days for $5000.

Posted by: brant Nov 30 2005, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 30 2005, 11:48 AM)

what is the acutal time (real minutes) required to set up an engine in the dyno? k

I know when I dyno'd my motor this summer, I was at the shop at 8:30am and out the door at 6:30pm

that was carb jetting only.... no other changes.
I worked side by side with the mechanic.

those were not all minutes spent on the dyno, but I think the point is that if its going to take someone 10hours of their day to dyno.. then they will not bill for just the minutes of the runs.

brant

Posted by: McMark Nov 30 2005, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 30 2005, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE (d914 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM) And what ever happened to Kit Carson? I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference.... I think McMark runs one...

I run the Kit Carlson. Last I heard he was dealing with personal issues, but has every intention of getting back into the FI project. In fact, I'll send him an email and see how he's doing...

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 30 2005, 07:38 PM

QUOTE (McMark @ Nov 30 2005, 03:57 PM)

QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 30 2005, 01:41 PM) QUOTE (d914 @ Nov 29 2005, 07:37 PM) And what ever happened to Kit Carson? I think that product's name is Kit Carlson, subtle difference.... I think McMark runs one... I run the Kit Carlson. Last I heard he was dealing with personal issues, but has every intention of getting back into the FI project. In fact, I'll send him an email and see how he's doing...

Thanks Mark. I think that system would make a great option for a better than stock rebuild. It needs to be user friendly and around the cost of a set of carbs and it will be golden.

Here's what we've discussed.

Jeff made a very good point (as usual thanks Jeff) about simply freshing up a stock motor. Great info and very do-able.

Pete is still asking about 120-150 HP for a fair price and continuing to challenge the club.

Several people have laid testamony to their success with the DYI. But we're looking for the crate motor not the suzy home maker kit.

I think we seem to all agree for a basic rebuild, very little needs to be done to the lower end to make it live again.

I think we also agree once the lower end is fresh it should handle 120/150 hp without an issue.

I've received some PM regarding parts that may or may not be available. I can't disclose anymore than that without permission from the sender. But Hi quality parts from a good and reputable source are starting to surface.

Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection.

no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune.

Next we need to know what it's worth to do that work. No more, no less, no frills, no hassle, no surprises, and no options for the buyer. Just a good short block that will produce 120/150 hp with the correct tuning.

Try that.

Please don't stray from the challenge.

Posted by: Kargeek Nov 30 2005, 07:38 PM

I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance?

http://www.fatperformance.com/about.htm

These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 30 2005, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 08:38 PM)

Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection. no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune.

A long block was more or less defined earlier in this thread to include the tin and induction, so I'll put forward this definition of a short block as a sealed engine with valve train properly set up, static timed distributor and installed clutch but no cooling tin or induction.

Starting and ending with a short block, I can disassemble, clean, inspect and reassemble with new parts for about $2K. I can get some machine work done locally as necessary, like crank grinding/balancing and rod reconditioning.

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 30 2005, 09:40 PM

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ Nov 30 2005, 07:14 PM)

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 08:38 PM) Let's try this. All guy's that have built a type IV more than say 6 times post what you feel you could do a tear down, examine parts, prep and clean the motor for reassembly with a quality kit. This will be a kit available to a builder only. Everything needed to make a long block able to develop 120/150 hp will be there for the assembly. So no guess work for the builder and no liability for the mistakes from the end user as this will be less carbs or injection. no dyno time, no run in, just a great new short block ready for a guy to install and tune. A long block was more or less defined earlier in this thread to include the tin and induction, so I'll put forward this definition of a short block as a sealed engine with valve train properly set up, static timed distributor and installed clutch but no cooling tin or induction. Starting and ending with a short block, I can disassemble, clean, inspect and reassemble with new parts for about $2K. I can get some machine work done locally as necessary, like crank grinding/balancing and rod reconditioning.

Yes, I agree with that. No tin, just the long block.

That's what were looking for. Are you saying $2000.00 including some minor machine work? So that would be worse case? Barring any resizing.... Just polish, recon, etc. ?...

Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 30 2005, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Nov 30 2005, 10:40 PM)

That's what were looking for. Are you saying $2000.00 including some minor machine work? So that would be worse case? Barring any resizing.... Just polish, recon, etc. ?...

Any machine work would be additional. I just mentioned it so you would know I have access to it locally.

Posted by: jasons Dec 1 2005, 12:05 AM

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 05:38 PM)

I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance? http://www.fatperformance.com/about.htm These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

I don't know why we don't hear more about FAT. They've probably built more competitive SCORE engines than anyone else. At least Type I's and IV's. They also build Toyotas.

"I think" they build a Type IV thats in these, and its good enough for our Navy SEALS.

Posted by: McMark Dec 1 2005, 12:08 AM

I'd have to agree with Chris. $2k is a comfortable number. If I could get a nice 135 hp kit for $3k, a long block for $5k would be a snap.

My solution to induction would be that hopefully whoever () could provide that kit could have one engine setup on the dyno and tuned with a FI setup. MegaSquirt would be a good choice. That way you could get a turn-key engine for $5500 using stock FI hardware and MS electronics.

Of course it's not going to be built to the full potential of the Type IV engine, and the fuel map will be a little off for each engine. But it's seems like a solid solution for the budget minded 914 owner.

Posted by: lagunero Dec 1 2005, 03:01 AM

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 05:38 PM)

These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

ask Elliot

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Dec 1 2005, 07:30 AM

Hi Guys,

I am not trying to go off post, but here's some interesting information. Because of this engine cost review I finally went into my files and added up all the material costs and labor costs to complete my (anal) restoration approx. (10) years ago.

Base line: I started with a rust free Calif. 914 2.0 liter with 100K miles and did a (5) year restoration, every nut, bolt, rubber part, etc was replaced. It truly ended up a new 914. In addition I spent over (2000) of my personal manhours to assembly along with labor hours spent on outside services I could not perform.

Here is the breakdown:
$15,000 parts (10) years ago Based on 5% inflation = $25,000 today (maybe)
$6,000 Outside labor ditto = $10,000 today
(2,000) of my labor hrs. (free). figure today @ $50 hr.= $100,000 today

When you start to analyze figures it's shocking. I believe today's 914 parts prices would be much higher, because most are no longer available. The great thing about our 914's they can be fitted with newer motors or whatever is available to the owner. I guess that's what we love about our 914's.

Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete.

Tom
BTW
Makes sense when you purchase to buy the best or lowest milage one available.

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 1 2005, 08:04 AM

What I was prepared to offer I think was substantially better that what is being discussed now. Complete machining with no up charges, unless your heads were totally munched.

The more I think about this the more I think it’s a bad idea for me.
I'm not mad or pissy...I just think it would/will end up giant clusterfuck. Besides I got plenty on my plate as it is.

If you need quality engine work at a reasonable price PM me, other than that I’m not interested in a group buy.

Posted by: blitZ Dec 1 2005, 08:39 AM

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Dec 1 2005, 06:04 AM)

What I was prepared to offer I think was substantially better that what is being discussed now. Complete machining with no up charges, unless your heads were totally munched. The more I think about this the more I think it’s a bad idea for me. I'm not mad or pissy...I just think it would/will end up giant clusterfuck. Besides I got plenty on my plate as it is. If you need quality engine work at a reasonable price PM me, other than that I’m not interested in a group buy.

Probably a wise call. Group buys are great for less expensive, existing items. The logistics of organizing an engine buy and finding 5 or 10 folks interested in an engine at exactly the same time would be hellish.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Dec 1 2005, 11:30 AM

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 1 2005, 05:30 AM)

Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete. Tom

No apologies needed here -- the whole idea was opening up a discussion and the information in this thread has been helpful, and then some.



I agree that a group buy is probably not the way to go here -- but I think getting to the point where we can start to see what kind of longblock could be had for *around* $5K if one doesn't go nuts on trick options has been VERY interesting.

From what I've read so far, it seems like the 2056 kit @ just over $3K + someone's labor @ around $2K is a good route to a modest power bump via high-quality parts.

After that, it's time to get back to driving!

pete

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 1 2005, 09:49 PM

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 1 2005, 05:30 AM)

Hi Guys, I am not trying to go off post, but here's some interesting information. Because of this engine cost review I finally went into my files and added up all the material costs and labor costs to complete my (anal) restoration approx. (10) years ago. Base line: I started with a rust free Calif. 914 2.0 liter with 100K miles and did a (5) year restoration, every nut, bolt, rubber part, etc was replaced. It truly ended up a new 914. In addition I spent over (2000) of my personal manhours to assembly along with labor hours spent on outside services I could not perform. Here is the breakdown: $15,000 parts (10) years ago Based on 5% inflation = $25,000 today (maybe) $6,000 Outside labor ditto = $10,000 today (2,000) of my labor hrs. (free). figure today @ $50 hr.= $100,000 today When you start to analyze figures it's shocking. I believe today's 914 parts prices would be much higher, because most are no longer available. The great thing about our 914's they can be fitted with newer motors or whatever is available to the owner. I guess that's what we love about our 914's. Now back to the programing. How to build a 914 motor for $5K or below. Sorry Pete. Tom BTW Makes sense when you purchase to buy the best or lowest milage one available.

Tom, your car is really nice

Posted by: bd1308 Dec 1 2005, 09:50 PM

what would it look like?

it would look just like my almost freebie 1.7.....



b

Posted by: blitZ Dec 2 2005, 07:07 AM

I did some searching to understand the KitCarson FI upgrade. It appears to work with the existing Djet intake for large bore engines. Is this correct?

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 2 2005, 08:59 AM

QUOTE (blitZ @ Dec 2 2005, 09:07 AM)

I did some searching to understand the KitCarson FI upgrade. It appears to work with the existing Djet intake for large bore engines. Is this correct?

Kit's system is dead...at least for a while. He may get back into it, but for now it's a no go.

SDS and the others also can work with the existing Djet intake but it's not just a bolt on. With a big bore it can work to a point.

Posted by: McMark Dec 2 2005, 10:46 AM

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was.

Posted by: Mark Henry Dec 2 2005, 11:21 AM

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 12:46 PM)

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was.

As much as I like the SDS that's good news

Posted by: Ray Warren Dec 2 2005, 11:22 AM

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 11:46 AM)

I just talked to Dave, and Kit Carlson doesn't sound as dead as you and I both thought it was.

Please
Tell us more.

Posted by: McMark Dec 2 2005, 12:27 PM

It's not my story to tell.

All I'm willing to say is, it's not time to forget about Dave and KitCarlson.

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 2 2005, 12:30 PM

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 2 2005, 10:27 AM)

It's not my story to tell. All I'm willing to say is, it's not time to forget about Dave and KitCarlson.

fingers crossed for good things in the future. Let us know when you can.

Posted by: chrisg Dec 4 2005, 08:44 PM

so what happened.......... how does this story end? Am I going to be able to keep my 4 or should I keep looking for an early six?

Posted by: McMark Dec 4 2005, 09:20 PM

You'll be able to keep your four. This thread did have an effect.

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Dec 4 2005, 09:47 PM

chrisg,

I am glad you brought this back up. I was wondering myself. Maybe the answer is no answer for a $5,000 type-4 motor. Think about it from a business view. Why would someone want to supply the low end market with a slim margin of profit. One or two warranty issues and all profit is gone.

Looks like motor builder's in standard type-4 (including standard 6's) Porsche motors don't want this business. They make money in the high end stuff. Why take risk with low profit margins. Makes sense to me.

Maybe we should look at it another way. Encourage vendors to sell a complete kit for the do it yourself crowd. I beleive someone could make a good profit by putting together a book/manual with detailed procedures for the home builder. Make it idiot proof with a parts list and pictures. I think that would be a good seller and good for the vendor selling the parts kit. I know the 911 crowd have a book by Wayne @ Pelican & Bruce Anderson. We need one for the 914er's.

Who in our crowd could do a book/manual??? Any suggestions???

Answer: If you want a $5K motor you have to do it yourself.

Tom
BTW
I called my motor builder and he didn't return my call. I was told he went to work for a large corporation to feed his family.

Posted by: anthony Dec 4 2005, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Dec 4 2005, 08:47 PM)

Maybe we should look at it another way. Encourage vendors to sell a complete kit for the do it yourself crowd. I beleive someone could make a good profit by putting together a book/manual with detailed procedures for the home builder. Make it idiot proof with a parts list and pictures. I think that would be a good seller and good for the vendor selling the parts kit. I know the 911 crowd have a book by Wayne @ Pelican & Bruce Anderson. We need one for the 914er's. Who in our crowd could do a book/manual??? Any suggestions???

Have you ever heard of Jake Raby?

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/store/home.php?cat=308

He sells complete kits for our motors. $5K actually buys you a 2270 that puts out around 150hp. A 2056 kit costs $3K. If you can't put it together yourself, find a competent type IV mechanic who will assemble it for you. I can't imagine that it would cost more than $1000 more.

BTW, Jake also sells a Type IV engine build DVD.

Posted by: kart54 Dec 5 2005, 01:03 AM

I agree with Chris Foley's estimates.
Just helped a friend tonight put his motor back in. 2.0.
New rings, new bearings, valve job, magnuflux everything, no cracks, checked and resized where necessary, all new gaskets, oil pump, and hoses. He pulled it, I helped him put it back in. Saw the receipt from the local bug shop. Total coat $1,835.00. 30,000 mile warranty.
Second time he has done this, got 165,000 miles out of the first one with regular oil changes and maintaince and nothing more.
Here in SoCal there are some great shops building motors for off road racing at a price much more reasonable than almost anything else I've seen posted. Our motors are still popular among the guys building racers for offroad because they are so reasonable. Entirely different mentality than what I've seen on this site so far. There is very little reason to get into a 10 0r 15,000 dollar engine for these cars unless it's a six.
Just my .02 cents worth.
Randy

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Dec 5 2005, 06:01 AM

Anthony & Randy.

I know about Jake, just didn't want to limit parts from one vendor. My main point was to get someone interested in publishing a motor manual to rebuild type-4 motor's. It could sell @ $49.00 dollars (or about) and help the novice who dosn't have confidience. It could be a good money maker for someone.

We need to develop a Type-4 mouth piece like Bruce Anderson for the 914 crowd. Like Sir Andy or Brad, or Mueller, or Craig, or Mark, or Chris, or ???? We need a 914 expert as our poster boy. Someone to take over Dr. 914's job. Notice he is always mentioned in most magazines. Somebody please step up.

Tom

Posted by: chrisg Dec 5 2005, 09:04 AM

I think my whole issue is just finding a competent builder (and to be honest I haven't really pursued that yet) as I have no problem buying a kit from Jake, it would be well worth the money. I just lack the time and confidence to do the build.
If I spend $3-4,000 on a kit, I'd rather have it assembled by someone who has already built hundreds or thousands of type4's. Break it in and tune it on a dyno after would be nice too.

Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Dec 5 2005, 07:10 PM

Hey Guys,

I want to put closure to my recent posts.

My motor builder finally called me this evening.

Quote: By well known Primo Petrucci of Petrucci Racing, custom VW & Type4 motor builder in the Great Lakes MI area.
Here is how he summed up our conversation. I got out of the full time motor building business a little over a year ago. I am now doing work in the tool & die field making a good living for my family. He will do side jobs if someone wants to pay for quality work and he knows them. He said he will sit home & watch TV rather than do work for someone who wants it done cheap. Primo said everyone he knows in the VW Air Cooled field will not service the low end crowd. Custom work with big $$ is the only thing they will consider. Primo said if they can't afford a Porsche they should buy a used subaru. That's what he said

Summary:
Everything Jake is saying about doing custom work is true. No room for the little guy wanting standard rebuilds cheap or reasonable. It's about vendors making money with deep pocket people who want quality and will pay for it. Looks like the little guy will have to do his own work if on a tight budget.

Tom
BTW
Sorry to give you this news. We are lucky to have Jake Raby.

Posted by: Al Meredith Dec 5 2005, 09:30 PM

I'm getting into this discussion too late BUT, I have been rebuilding T4's for about 10 years at my home for our own use and for some teeners in the local area (Atlanta). I have about 40+ hours in a rebuild. That is dissassembling a dirty old engine, cleaning, honing the barrels. That does not include Head work. I always clean and wire brush all the nuts and wire brush the threads. I can't balance at home but I weigh everything and match before assembly. I also run everything up on an engine stand before delivery to check for leaks and to adjust the valves after about 1 hour.
So figure about 45 hours X labor rate. Al

Posted by: anthony Dec 5 2005, 10:09 PM

How many hours would it take for someone experienced to assemble one of Jake's kits into longblock form?

Posted by: McMark Dec 5 2005, 11:52 PM

Earlier in the thread, both Mark and I figured we could put a motor together for about $2k.

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 6 2005, 12:26 AM

QUOTE (McMark @ Dec 5 2005, 09:52 PM)

Earlier in the thread, both Mark and I figured we could put a motor together for about $2k.

I agree with the Marks. Anyone that wants to prove either one of these guys wrong send them your motor. You won't be disappointed. I can assemble a type IV . But I'm not an engine builder and I'm too busy to hire out my service. The trick is a supply of quality parts in kit form and a good core lower end. I've seen McMark's work in progress. First at the WCC "04" Then at the "05" I like the injection test pipe. Really cool stuff. I don't think McMark knew I was checking out his work But I was impressed, and I built the Alien... for what it's worth...

Posted by: Elliot Cannon Dec 6 2005, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (Kargeek @ Nov 30 2005, 06:38 PM)

I've been reading this post and the other about Jake's pricing...has anyone considered or had experience with Fat Preformance? http://www.fatperformance.com/about.htm These guys have specilized in type IV's for many years and I believe have a good reputation. DH

I had FAT Performance build an engine for me about two years ago. I brought them a crankcase, crankshaft, flywheel and heads from a 2.0 that I bought for $500. They gave back a complete engine. 2.2 liter with webbers, euro headers and a bunch of other stuff I'd have to look up in the shop list. It produced 147 horsepower on the dyno. Of course there was that valve lifter porblem. Twice. They made good on it both times and I have some ceramic lifters for it now and will install them some day. The total came to $7000. I still don't think the webbers are set up just right yet but all in all I have been pretty satisfied with the engine.
Cheers, Elliot

Posted by: McMark Dec 8 2005, 01:10 AM

Well, it's real. Visit the Parts & Resources section for details or http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=42456&st=0

Thanks to Jake for helping make this happen and thanks to Rick for lighting a fire under our asses.