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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Type IV Engine - Some assembly Required
Posted by: adammtb Dec 19 2005, 09:15 PM
Hey all,
So my brother and I are about to embark on the engine re-assembly of our resto project. Here's what we're starting with. Basically it's the 1.7 from our '72 but we've got new 1.8 pistons and cylinders and all new wear items, seals, bearings. A new for us (used) crank (polished) and we had a valve job done.
We also rebuilt the Weber 34 ICTs the car came with.
Posted by: r_towle Dec 19 2005, 09:29 PM
real men dont need instructions...
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 19 2005, 09:49 PM
Looks like you certainly need my rebuild video!
Posted by: SirAndy Dec 19 2005, 09:53 PM
| QUOTE (r_towle @ Dec 19 2005, 08:29 PM) |
| real men dont need instructions... |
famous last words ...
the only thing missing in the "scratching your heads" picture is the fridge with the cold beer.
you'll need a *lot* ...
Andy
Posted by: brer Dec 19 2005, 09:55 PM
Hey, so did you need to mod the case to take the 1.8 Pistons and cylinders?
Are they a slip in fit?
Posted by: GWN7 Dec 19 2005, 09:58 PM
Only one empty beer shown in the first picture.....that will change... 
Posted by: Headrage Dec 19 2005, 09:59 PM
Please don't start putting things together just because they fit. If you are trying to adapt a 1.7 or 1.8 motor with larger P/C's, make sure everything will work together.
AND get Jakes video....
Posted by: tat2dphreak Dec 19 2005, 09:59 PM
| QUOTE (brer @ Dec 19 2005, 10:55 PM) |
| Hey, so did you need to mod the case to take the 1.8 Pistons and cylinders? Are they a slip in fit? |
yep, the case needs no changes to fit 1.8 cyls... though I don't think you get anything from them... the 1.8 had less HP than the 1.7...
1.7 heads DO need to be opened up to put the 1.8 cylinders in though...
Posted by: Teknon Dec 19 2005, 10:02 PM
Good luck boys.
Hey Jake did the new video come out yet?????? 
Posted by: SGB Dec 19 2005, 10:12 PM
say I think you better catch those lightweight parts floating off there...
Posted by: adammtb Dec 19 2005, 10:23 PM
Thanks guys. Indeed we have the minifridge with beer. We did have the heads worked to accept the bigger pistons. Since the cylinders just bolt on to the block there is no need to do any crankcase work. We were under the impression the 1.8 made less hp because it was a version made to meet emissions standards. And, well, a bunch of that stuff was "weight reductioned" out.
We were also told the 1.8 heads have the largest valves, and it would be a benefit to use those (but we ran out of money and time). Is this true? It seems odd that the 1.8 would have larger valves than the 2.0.
Posted by: adammtb Dec 19 2005, 10:24 PM
| QUOTE (SGB @ Dec 19 2005, 08:12 PM) |
| say I think you better catch those lightweight parts floating off there... |
oh yeah, those are some things we've POR15ed
Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 19 2005, 10:27 PM
| QUOTE (adammtb @ Dec 19 2005, 08:23 PM) |
| We were also told the 1.8 heads have the largest valves, and it would be a benefit to use those (but we ran out of money and time). Is this true? It seems odd that the 1.8 would have larger valves than the 2.0. |
No, 1.8L heads have 41x34mm valves as the 914 2.0L heads have 42x36mm stock.
Hopefully you are replacing the cam with something better than the stock pos and new lifters to match the cam.
Posted by: McMark Dec 19 2005, 11:34 PM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 19 2005, 08:27 PM) |
| Hopefully you are replacing the cam with something better than the stock pos and new lifters to match the cam. |
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 19 2005, 11:46 PM
And the correct valve springs and retainers to matcyh the added cam ....
everything is dependant upon everything else!
Posted by: adammtb Dec 20 2005, 07:31 AM
We weren't planning on changing the cam. 
We had never actually thought to do it. And now she needs to be assembled by thursday. Time to get -----> 
Posted by: Bleyseng Dec 20 2005, 08:19 AM
then you have a time bomb on your hands...... 
Posted by: blitZ Dec 20 2005, 08:26 AM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Dec 20 2005, 06:19 AM) |
| then you have a time bomb on your hands...... |
I'm sure it will be easier the second time....
Posted by: DNHunt Dec 20 2005, 08:56 AM
Yikes, It's a lot of work to have to redo. Do it right the first time and do it once. If you need something soon, find a runner in the area and put it in for a while, then take your time on the rebuild.
Posted by: gregrobbins Dec 20 2005, 09:14 AM
Careful, the stock cam is designed for the fuel injection system period. To take advantage of the carburators, you should get a cam designed to maximize their potential.
Good luck with the build and keep us updated with news and photos.
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 20 2005, 09:28 AM
I haven't used a stcok cam in about 10 years.... Its the most horrible part of the engine's design! Your carbs will be loud as hell and the car just won't move with the stock cam in the combination with carbs, in fact you'll have more power at part throttle than at wide open with the stock cam!
And your heads will run 40 degrees hotter than they need to... The stock cam is horrible in every aspect.
Posted by: adammtb Dec 20 2005, 01:55 PM
What would you suggest for a camshaft setup? Given it's originally a 1.7 with 1.8 pistons and cylinders. And we're running 34 ICTs.
I guess I just assumed it was the stock Cam, I don't know how to tell. But it does have some numbers on it. 021.109.111B VW(symbol) 16H
Starting at the gear end, and taking the first lobe to be 12 oclock, the next lobes are at about 8, 5, and then 9 o'clock. There is also a -2 stamped near the teeth of the gear at about 4:30.
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 20 2005, 02:55 PM
RAT 9530
Posted by: adammtb Dec 20 2005, 03:09 PM
and we'd have to upgrade the rocker springs? and what else?
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Dec 20 2005, 05:12 PM
| QUOTE (adammtb @ Dec 19 2005, 08:23 PM) |
| We were also told the 1.8 heads have the largest valves, and it would be a benefit to use those (but we ran out of money and time). Is this true? It seems odd that the 1.8 would have larger valves than the 2.0. |
They don't have the largest valves. You'll also need to calculate the deck height and combustion chamber because the compression ratio's gonna be higher.
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 20 2005, 05:32 PM
You need;
a spring upgrade
Retainer upgrade
rocker arm upgrade (so you can use 911 adjusters)
911 adjusters
pushrod update
This is to make the assembly capable of attaining proper rocker geometry as well as something that has parts up to twice as stromng as stock.
Keep in mind that the ONLY thing the really ever kills a TIV is valve train failures....
Posted by: adammtb Dec 20 2005, 11:35 PM
Thanks to everyone for the input on the cams. Although it's a hard pill to swallow we're just not going to be able to do that this time around. Maybe in the spring.
We have, however, run into a bit of a problem. We were checking the oil relief valve, and it appears to be stuck. It's the one one the underside, near the front, of the right half of the case. We took the monster nut off and the spring came out but we can't get the plunger to slide out. 
Are we totally hosed? Or is there some kind of fix? 
Posted by: Elliot Cannon Dec 20 2005, 11:43 PM
I believe MattR had the same problem with his engine but I don't remember how he resolved the problem. Matt??
Elliot
Posted by: bd1308 Dec 20 2005, 11:54 PM
cant you get one of those magnetic things like the lifters are pulled out with?
b
Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 20 2005, 11:55 PM
| QUOTE (Elliot Cannon @ Dec 20 2005, 10:43 PM) |
| I believe MattR had the same problem with his engine but I don't remember how he resolved the problem. Matt?? Elliot |
he got a new case IIRC
i also had the same problem.
i used a NEODMIUM magnet (UBER strong... and it pulled it out...)
AA
Posted by: adammtb Dec 20 2005, 11:59 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Dec 20 2005, 09:55 PM) | ||
he got a new case IIRC i also had the same problem. i used a NEODMIUM magnet (UBER strong... and it pulled it out...) AA |
then did you get a new one? or bore out the hole more? or was it enough to just unstick it?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Dec 21 2005, 12:04 AM
| QUOTE (adammtb @ Dec 20 2005, 10:59 PM) | ||||
then did you get a new one? or bore out the hole more? or was it enough to just unstick it? |
mine was "crud stuck"....
no bore damage or anything. just crud holding it in....
AA
Posted by: craig downs Dec 21 2005, 01:28 AM
Thanks Jake you learn something everyday. I put on dual carbs. with a stock cam and could not understand why it made all its power with the carbs. barely open. I put in smaller venturies and that
helped a little bit but it was never really good. They were also loud even barely open kinda annoying.
By the way I am new born here and this my first post. I have learnd so much in such a short time here.
I have a 75 914 that I have had since 77 and the second owner. It is going thru a resto right now hope to get her finished in about a year.
I'm planing to put in one of Jake 2270s
Thanks to all
Craig
Posted by: adammtb Dec 21 2005, 11:11 AM
So we were down at our local VW engine shop (Peak Performance, near D.C) looking for some random parts and it turns out they had some cams in stock. Actually we were trying to finish to bottom end last night but we didn't have any vibration dampeners.
Anyway, we got a new cam and some new lifters too. It's a Scat C25; Just a touch more aggressive than stock but mild enough not to warrant a new top end.
We feel much better about the build now, 
although the pocketbook has been totally obliterated.
As far as the sticky oil valve: the guys at the shop said we could probably use a tap to grip inside the plunger and twist it free and pull it out. So we picked up some taps and we'll see how that goes.
Posted by: ewdysar Dec 21 2005, 11:37 AM
Looks like you're at least getting the beer shortage handled.
Good luck with the rebuild, given your time and $$ constraints, it should work out well enough. Hopefully, by the next time you head into the engine, you'll have had the opportunity to learn more of what you want, and have more time to prepare your wallet. 914's may be the "cheap" Porsche, but they're still Porsche's...
Welcome to the club.
Eric
Posted by: Jake Raby Dec 21 2005, 01:41 PM
Oh no.....
Thats all I have to say.
Posted by: type47 Dec 21 2005, 02:29 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Dec 21 2005, 11:41 AM) |
| Oh no..... Thats all I have to say. |
now jake (and everybody else), sometimes we have to just step back and let people go their own way, kinda like children, we may have to let them learn by their mistakes.
Posted by: adammtb Dec 21 2005, 06:19 PM
Did we blow it on the cam thing?
As far as the stuck oil valve. The tap worked well. a 12mm was too small, but a 1/2-20 did the trick. It threaded in some and then we were able to wiggle the plunger out. We tried lightly sanding the plunger to get it so slide smooth but the inside of the case seems like the rough part. So we may have to hone it a little (somehow)
Posted by: mike373 Dec 21 2005, 06:33 PM
What about all the metal shavings from drilling?? You dont want any of that in the case...and it looks like you already joined the case halves..... Or did you?
Mike
Posted by: degreeoff Dec 21 2005, 06:49 PM
Man you guys are breakin my heart....Josh here. I have a Scat c-25 with 2k miles just sitting here with the lifters I'd let that go for 100 bucks.....We Really SHOULD have met up
Oh well
Josh
Posted by: degreeoff Dec 21 2005, 06:51 PM
AND I have a case and HE and all sorts of Sh!t you guys could use....
AND I am local
AND you could see hear/ride my OTHER parts running in the car
Posted by: adammtb Dec 21 2005, 07:01 PM
Mike, yeah you're right about the shavings, hrm. . . I don't want to take too much off the plunger either or it won't seal well.
Josh, Doh! 
yeah we should have, oh well. How'd that cam work out? we're you running carbs on it? what kind?
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