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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ GRRRRRRRR!!!

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 24 2005, 12:26 AM

http://vintagecars.about.com/od/startercars/ss/p914.htm

Posted by: Dr. Roger Dec 24 2005, 12:38 AM

QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Dec 23 2005, 11:26 PM)
http://vintagecars.about.com/od/startercars/ss/p914.htm

QUOTE
It featured angular lines and a removeable Targa roof with flying buttress pillars, a trendy style also seen on the Jaguar XJ-S: in the opinion of this writer, an unflattering technique that rarely worked.

referring to boxter and 911's..
QUOTE
the 914 doesn't bear a physical resemblance, and can't compete with either on the track,

that dude can kiss my grits....

Posted by: JOHNMAN Dec 24 2005, 12:43 AM

Don't let some geezer spouting off some BS about cars that he knows nothing about bother you.

I can't believe you bother to read that crap. He must have read some poorly written book on the subject and not paid too much attention.

I tend to surprise a great number of folks at track events in my 914 (piss some off as well).

Posted by: Lawrence Dec 24 2005, 04:16 AM

Don't like the article... write the author: vintagecars.guide@about.com .

Keep if factual and don't attack the author... and maybe he'll revise what he's written.

-Rusty

Posted by: 9146986 Dec 24 2005, 10:10 AM

Here's what I wrote:

To: Philip Powel
RE: Porsche 914

Dear Mr. Powel,

Thank you for your recent article regarding the Porsche 914. The 914 is a wonderful car that is appreciating continually, and good examples are getting more difficult to source.

I would suggest however that you should endeavor to substantiate claims you make regarding specific vehicles, with factual information. Statements such as “can't compete with either on the track” are not true. As a matter of point, the 914 has dominated the Porsche Club of America’s Parade autocross, since it’s inception.
The design firm Gugelot, which you have credited with the design, did not design the 914, the 914 was a product of the internal design team at Porsche.
The 914 front suspension was developed first, for the 914 and later adapted to the 911.
While the VW type 4 engine shares some parts with the 914 engine, the 914 has many unique features, and aside from the engine most 914 parts are unique to that car.
The 914 was the first mid engine production car with four wheel disc brakes, fully independent suspension, electronic fuel injection, integrated roll bar, one piece removable hard top, and electric pop up headlights.
While some the US Porsche PR people lack respect for the 914, Porsche AG does not. Porsche AG purchased all tooling for the 914 in 1975, and of course all repair parts that can not be purchased aftermarket, much be sourced from a Porsche dealer, not VW.

Finally, true Porsche enthusiast love and respect the 914 for what it is, and how it performs. Perhaps a current real market comparison to other vehicles of it’s genre (MGB, Fiat 124, Triumph Spitfire, Opel GT, etc) would provide you with more insight regarding actual values.

Sincerely,

Perry M. Kiehl
thekiehls@direcway.com

Posted by: chilli Dec 24 2005, 10:23 AM

Typical Media BS, Just a another fine example of how they can't get anything correct.

mike

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 24 2005, 01:24 PM

This article was discussed previously. The guy has a lot of incorrect facts for such a short article.

One of the biggest is the claim that the car didn't sell well in the US and was "an embarrassment", despite the fact that the 914/4 outsold the 911 by a wide margin for most years the 914 was produced. 23,000 914s were sold in 1970, to only 14,000 911s. Consider that in 1969 Porsche sold only 10,000 911s and 8,000 912s. Production of the 914/4 alone, therefore, outstripped that of ALL Porsches for 1969, and total sales more than doubled from 1969 to 1970. Considering 911 sales were up by 40% from '69 to '70 hints that the 914 helped sales of the 911, too. This is an embarrassment?!

Posted by: neo914-6 Dec 24 2005, 01:32 PM

Unless authorized historical documents from Porsche, they are all "stories"....

Excerpt by: Dean Lewellen THE PORSCHE 914THE PORSCHE 914--MID-ENGINE MAGIC

The first issue was the appearance, which had to be approved by both
Porsche and VW. Porsche did not want the car to look like their existing
product line and Volkswagen did not want the car to look like any earlier
Porsche models. To minimize conflict, an outside source was chosen to
provide the initial design concept for the new car, which was formally
identified as the Type 914. The industrial design firm of Gugelot Design
GmbH, located in Neu-Ulm, Germany, was working on an automobile body shape
built from a foam core bonded to fiberglass panels as a sandwich structure
which had interested BMW, Daimler-Benz, Karmann, Porsche and Volkswagen as
a future automobile body production method. This design concept was a
front-engine coupe with flush fender lines, a recessed rear window and
elongated running lights capping the front fenders. The Porsche design
team, headed by Butzi Porsche, credited for the 911 Coupe and Targa
designs, changed the Gugelot concept car to accommodate the mid-engine
location and made other styling changes to suit Porsche's desires.

and pics I found on Rennlist...

Attached image(s)

Posted by: neo914-6 Dec 24 2005, 01:33 PM

like the quad lights?

Attached image(s)

Posted by: neo914-6 Dec 24 2005, 01:52 PM

QUOTE
It featured angular lines and a removeable Targa roof with flying buttress pillars, a trendy style also seen on the Jaguar XJ-S: in the opinion of this writer, an unflattering technique that rarely worked.

He's not design savvy. The XJ-S "flying buttress" was considered one of the nicest aesthetic features.

I wouldn't call the 914 targa a "flying" buttress like many of the Ferraris, it's too short because Porsche designed functional engine access between it and the trunk. It still has visual and probably structural strength and doesn't restrict rear 3/4 view like some mid-engine cars (Lotus Europa, Lancia Scorpion, and Lambos)...

Posted by: grantsfo Dec 24 2005, 02:19 PM

...chasing a Boxster?

user posted image

Posted by: 9146986 Dec 26 2005, 10:30 AM

Powell replies!

Gentlemen:

During the past few days I received two e-mails regarding my supposedly negative remarks on the Porsche 914. I'm replying to both writers simultaneously since the message would be essentially the same.

Lawrence wrote:
"It's a shame that your generally factual article contains such jaded and prejudicial tone about the 914. It's obvious that you know very little about the marque, and the performance characteristics of the Porsche 914. Perhaps you should go back to high-school, or at least attend a few PCA track events, before you start writing about something you know so little about."

Perry Kheil wrote, among other things:
"I would suggest however that you should endeavor to substantiate claims you make regarding specific vehicles, with factual information. Statements such as “can't compete with either on the track” are not true. As a matter of point, the 914 has dominated the Porsche Club of America’s Parade autocross, since it’s inception." (By the way, Perry, it's Powell, not Powel.)

Before beginning, I'd like to thank you both for writing. I'm not offended when someone criticises my efforts (well, not for long, anyway) and besides, we're all car enthusiasts and it's hardly unusual for car buffs to disagree. With that out of the way, let me respond as best I can.

First of all, let's settle the matter of whether this is "something you know so little about." Before the 914 first appeared I was assistant public relations manager for both VW and Porsche in Canada. Ernst Piech was one of my co-workers, on assignment from Europe as a trainee. I was privileged to meet and talk with Ferry Porsche and his then racing director Huschke Von Hanstein, along with others of the European and American racing teams. I raced a modified Beetle to a Canadian class championship and the next year drove an unmodified Porsche 356B in three races for stock sports cars and finished, in order, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st overall. Also drove in a number of rallies and hillclimbs and was first president of the Porsche Club of Canada.

So I do know a little about Porsche, and Porsche racing, albeit from an historic perspective.

When the 914 first appeared I still doing freelance work for VW/Porsche and was totally familiar with the car. A friend had purchased one and I had the privilege of driving it. He loved it. So did I. I still do, but I think it had its faults, as does any car. I was never impressed with the styling (as I made clear in the article) yet whenever I see one of the road it turns my head and makes me think I'd like to own a Porsche 914.

The purpose of the article was not to praise or deride the 914, but to suggest it as an affordable starter car for someone wishing to get in on the collector car hobby, particularly if that person prefers sports cars. In that context some background, including pros and cons, is important. Most of what I wrote, however, was positive. For example:

"...a mid-engine Porsche that conceptually preceded the Boxster."

"...we salute a Porsche that, in some respects, is the Boxster's closest relative."

"...True, the 914 doesn't resemble its elegant styling as the 500 does, and can't compete with either on the track, but it's a far better car than most critics are willing to admit."

"More VW than Porsche but still a good buy."

"...Americans weren't too happy with a Volkswagen-powered version (neatly ignoring history as the early Porsches were built around VW engines)."

"...functional, with comfortable seating and ample luggage room."

"They're looking more attractive with age and if you can find one, make a fine starter car."

Regarding my remark about the 914's track abilities, I have no doubt it's a winner in autocross events. It should be. But when I compared it to the 550 Spyder and the 911 I used the word "racing," meaning traditional road races such as LeMans, Sebring, etc. A lap of a road circuit in the company of 20 or 30 other competitors is not the same as a lap of an autocross, I'm sure you'll agree.

As for "factual" information I got most of it from the book Great Marques of Germany (with foreword by Professor Dr. Ferdinand Porsche). Among other things it said:

"The shape was based on a design exercise by the German firm of Gugelot and was functional, if not pretty."

"The engine on the cheaper 914/4 came from the Volkswagen 411E, a fuel-injected 4-cylinder producing 80 hp... the suspension and steering followed those on the 911 except that coil springs were used at the rear to make room for the engine. Volkswagen wheels, hubs, and disk brakes were used at the front with special disc brakes adapted at the back on the 914/4."

"...none of this would have mattered very much had it been demonstrable that the 914 was far superior to the 911; but it was never more than on a par in terms of performance and handling."

"Volkswagen was simply not a sporty name in Europe and to the Americans, Porsche meant something quite different, a true GT car."

"The 914 faded away in the spring of 1976. It was a pity, for the 914 had so much potential."

Any other information in the article, aside from what I remembered from my own experiences, was drawn from research on the Internet and written by supposedly knowledgeable individuals. Needless to say the Net can also be a great source of misinformation but it's not always possible to crosscheck everything.

By the way, your own PCA has called on me as a source of reference, as you may witness in some upcoming 2006 issues.

In my experience, folks who are dedicated to a single make are often fanatical over their chosen mounts and tend to be highly sensitive to criticism. But in my job as an automobile journalist I have to call it as I see it and I consider the 914 article a fair, honest, unprejudiced, and complimentary review.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it but again, many thanks for writing to express your views.

Seasons Best --
-- Philip

Philip Powell
About Classic Cars
http://vintagecars.about.com

Posted by: 9146986 Dec 26 2005, 10:31 AM

My reply to Mr. Powell:

Mr. Powell,

Thank you for your personal reply. Sorry for misspelling your last name, however I see you reciprocated by misspelling mine! (it’s Kiehl, not Kheil) I mean this in jest, so please take no offense. I consider any dialog between an enthusiast, like myself, and an author of your credentials is a privilege. I sincerely thank you again, for your article on 914’s. As a devout enthusiast any “press” regarding these cars is a plus. In addition I recognize the efforts required to author an article regarding vintage cars has many challenges.

The Gugelot rumor has been perpetuated by numerous authors. I personally investigated this issue myself, and was told in personal letter by a member of the 914 design team, Mr. Jorg Austen, that the 914 design was developed internally. I would agree that the design is not appreciated by everyone, and indeed an acquired taste.

In my first e-mail letter, I must admit that I failed to point out the impressive road racing history of the 914. Most notorious would probably be the 914-6 GT victory at LeMans winning first in class and sixth place overall. However, perhaps more impressive is the 1-2-3 place finish of the 914-6 GT, in 1970 at the 86 hours of Marathon de la Route. These as well as other impressive road racing victories garnered the 914 -6 GT the International GT Trophy in 1970. In US there is the impressive SCCA record of the 914-6 campaigned by Carlsen Porsche-Audi. There has been much speculation among many Porsche enthusiasts that the factory never campaign a 914 because they did not want to beat the flagship 911.

Thank you again Mr. Powell for your reply, and your continued enthusiasm for vintage cars!

Sincerely,

Perry M. Kiehl
thekiehls@direcway.com

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 26 2005, 10:58 AM

Nice Perry! I'm not enough of a historian to lock sabers with the likes of that author, but you clearly are.

To the estemed author with the speelin prollem...

We've heard the same jive for years. 914's have an un-impressive race record and how were the bastard children of the family.

But a closer look will not only expose the fact that a real sound ass kickin took place on many occasions, but also the 914 is no longer priced so close to an entry level, disposable, little son of a "Bastard".... (as in James Dean fame)

Posted by: MecGen Dec 26 2005, 07:50 PM

Holy Shit, He answered
Bonus

Thanx for you guys keeping our story strait,

+Karma
Later

Posted by: Travis Neff Dec 26 2005, 08:55 PM

I look forward to his next reply.

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 27 2005, 12:50 AM

Should we send him a link to the best resource he'll ever have?

Posted by: Rob Ways Dec 27 2005, 12:57 AM

The article was interesting to say the least, but you can't help but learn quite a bit from the exchange. This is in jest, but perhaps we should pump the dinasour for some more fossils.

Posted by: Lawrence Dec 27 2005, 01:42 AM

Well written, Perry. I was scrounging around for the old 914 magazine ad entitled "you can't win them all"... so I could attach that to a reply.

My guess is that part of the article's tone has to do with old-school PCA attitude that the 914 was NARP. If he were to write that the 356 had more VW parts than the 914... that would be killing a sacred cow. I guess we can't educate everyone.

-Rusty

P.S. My comment "going back to high school" refers to his posted bio reference of having never finished high-school. It wasn't an attack - I merely read his bio prior to writing him a note.

Posted by: Brando Dec 27 2005, 03:00 AM

QUOTE (Rob Ways @ Dec 26 2005, 10:57 PM)
The article was interesting to say the least, but you can't help but learn quite a bit from the exchange. This is in jest, but perhaps we should pump the dinasour for some more fossils.

We get another dinosaur around here it'll be the Cretaceous Period all over again.

I say what the hell, another guy who's a die-hard 914 fan with a racing history? Why not invite him to the club.

Posted by: DJsRepS Dec 27 2005, 07:02 AM

That guy only wishes he had one back in the 70's. And if he had it now it might be worth at least 3 times what he paid for it new. How many cars were running on the streets back then with an ECU running 4 injectors and all around disk brakes that could corner like the 914. I feel the 914 was way advanced in its day compaired to what the big three were pumping out to the public.

You can tell he dont know shit about the 914. On his other put down page he talking 73 and the 1.7L and goes on to say that the next year they bored it out to an 1.8 and ran fuel injection. I guess someone modified my 72/914 1.7L with fuel injection. That Dumb asss.

I think Jake should take him for a VW ride in an aircooled 4 bangger. Blow out the newest prototype motor he just finished. I bet that would change his tune about the cheap 914. What a DUMBA$$HOLE!

Posted by: rick 918-S Dec 27 2005, 08:44 AM

QUOTE (DJsRepS @ Dec 27 2005, 05:02 AM)
That guy only wishes he had one back in the 70's. And if he had it now it might be worth at least 3 times what he paid for it new. How many cars were running on the streets back then with an ECU running 4 injectors and all around disk brakes that could corner like the 914. I feel the 914 was way advanced in its day compaired to what the big three were pumping out to the public.

You can tell he dont know shit about the 914. On his other put down page he talking 73 and the 1.7L and goes on to say that the next year they bored it out to an 1.8 and ran fuel injection. I guess someone modified my 72/914 1.7L with fuel injection. That Dumb asss.

I think Jake should take him for a VW ride in an aircooled 4 bangger. Blow out the newest prototype motor he just finished. I bet that would change his tune about the cheap 914. What a DUMBA$$HOLE!

I don't agree the author is short on information. His research shows all the same old standard info that anyone would get from standing in a room full of old tail dragger owners. No disrespect intended. But he has some very positive ("pro")info. He just needs to update the source of his ("con") info.