Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 200 mph 914
Posted by: dwillouby Jan 3 2006, 07:21 PM
hello,
Been thinking about a new project. Has anyone driven a 914 over 200 mph?
Enough horsepower can be obtained with a V8. Might need turbos to keep the motor reasonable.
Aside from the required safety mods. any input on areo tricks would be helpful. I know a stock body tends to get very light at high speed. My stock bodied V8 conversion starts getting real skittish around 145.
Can this be done or am I nuts?
Thanks
David
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 3 2006, 07:24 PM
| QUOTE (dwillouby @ Jan 3 2006, 05:21 PM) |
| Can this be done or am I nuts? |
anything can be done ... bring $$$ ...
where would you be able to drive the car at 200mph ???
Andy
Posted by: Headrage Jan 3 2006, 07:33 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 3 2006, 05:24 PM) | ||
anything can be done ... bring $$$ ... where would you be able to drive the car at 200mph ??? Andy |
Tell me where you could do it and what it would take....
Posted by: dwillouby Jan 3 2006, 07:47 PM
I want the car semi streetable. There are events around the country that cater to this. Of course the entry must conform to rules and specs to compete. The biggest is speed week at Bonnyville. Its not uncommon to see a 200mph camero. I dont want a tube chassis but a stock based tub,rollcage, big brakes,pantera trans,ect.
David
Posted by: flatout Jan 3 2006, 07:50 PM
El Mirage dry lake ( southern California timing association ) Bonneville salt flats, again an SCTA event, or Utah salt flat racing association. Rule books are available from Bonneville Nationals, Inc. 
Posted by: boxstr Jan 3 2006, 08:04 PM
Go to http://www.openroadracing.com looks like the place you want to be.
CCLIN2006
Posted by: URY914 Jan 3 2006, 08:05 PM
When I get my car painted, it will do 200 sitting still. 
Paul
Posted by: URY914 Jan 3 2006, 08:07 PM
Build one like this....
Attached image(s)
Posted by: alpha434 Jan 3 2006, 08:22 PM
lighter doesn't mean better top speed. Remember that when your doing body work. NO FENDER FLARES!!!! those things kill your aero. You can pack 7 inch tires under the stock body work. Next, get a sheet of fiberglass to cover the whole bottom of your car from the front bumper to the rear of your car. Ferrari does this with dimpled aluminum. Feel free to dimple your fiberglass. Get rid of your rear bumper. Find the smallest front bumper with a spoiler. The pointier the nose comes to, the better. Drop your front ride hight as low as possible with out dragging in the corners. Drop the rear to about as low as the front, but just a little higher.
Read the forum about the vortex generators. That'll help.
If NASCAR could do it the you sure as hell can.
Stupid American Beasts
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 3 2006, 08:23 PM
Depending on how aerodynamically clean you can make a 914 so it generates no more than a reasonable amount of lift (say, under 500lbs total) at 200mph, then you'll need to make at least 500hp to overcome the aero drag to hit that speed. At those kinds of speeds, any losses (rolling resistance, driveline drag, bearing drag) start to make a big difference, so 600-700hp is more likely to get you past the 200mph mark than "only" 500. Getting that kind of power out of an SBC is certainly doable, but still pretty expensive.
Then there's the gearing problem...
Posted by: riverman Jan 3 2006, 08:35 PM
| QUOTE (dwillouby @ Jan 3 2006, 08:21 PM) |
| Can this be done or am I nuts? |
I think you're nuts, but I'd still like to see you try!
Posted by: alpha434 Jan 3 2006, 08:38 PM
I'll bet he could do it with 500.
It'll just take time and effort. And cash.
And one of my new langchek rear trunklids that i've been working on. No pics yet. TOP SECRET.
Posted by: ken914 Jan 3 2006, 08:45 PM
It has been done.
There was an article in Excellence about 2 or 3 years ago on the Kremer (I think) 914-6 GT. Some guy named something like "Von K" bought in the 70's and highly modified it. Managed 194 on the back straight at Riverside.
I have a copy of the article. I will look it up and scan it tomorrow at my office and post it on this link.
Ken
Posted by: Headrage Jan 3 2006, 08:47 PM
| QUOTE (alpha434 @ Jan 3 2006, 06:38 PM) |
| I'll bet he could do it with 500. It'll just take time and effort. And cash. And one of my new langchek rear trunklids that i've been working on. No pics yet. TOP SECRET. |
Who are you???
Posted by: URY914 Jan 3 2006, 08:51 PM
| QUOTE (Headrage @ Jan 3 2006, 06:47 PM) |
| Who are you??? |
I've been thinking the same thing.
Posted by: TimT Jan 3 2006, 08:56 PM
Ive been over 200 in this brick 
talk about pushing a brick through the air..IMSA course at Pocono
sorry I know its not a 914 but hey 200 is 200 does.. We change the aero package at every track. I admit we are probably going backwards, but hey its fun and fast!
Attached image(s)
Posted by: TimT Jan 3 2006, 08:57 PM
hehe just noticed how much the rear wing is deflecting.. have to stiffen that element up
Posted by: olav Jan 3 2006, 09:01 PM
| QUOTE (ken914 @ Jan 3 2006, 06:45 PM) |
| It has been done. There was an article in Excellence about 2 or 3 years ago on the Kremer (I think) 914-6 GT. Some guy named something like "Von K" bought in the 70's and highly modified it. Managed 194 on the back straight at Riverside. I have a copy of the article. I will look it up and scan it tomorrow at my office and post it on this link. Ken |
I talked to the son of "Von K". He had a store here in Los Gatos. When he saw my 914 he told me all about his father taking a 914-6 GT and super modifying it with twin turbos etc. It went fast as hell and he got up to almost 200 in it. He sold it in eventually and bought another car to highly modify.
His father still auto crosses.
Posted by: alpha434 Jan 3 2006, 09:09 PM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 3 2006, 06:51 PM) | ||
I've been thinking the same thing. |
Jeeze guys, whats the problem?!? It's just too cold to jack with my own car so i sit around here and make y'all sweat a little.
Now is this a ninja?
Or is it a terrorist?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 3 2006, 09:11 PM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 3 2006, 07:07 PM) |
| Build one like this.... |
seen that car go!!! at el mirage...... very cool sight.
i think it had a rotary in it....
Posted by: bmunday Jan 3 2006, 09:17 PM
Well I would have to agree, your nuts... But would very much like to see it... ![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: 3d914 Jan 3 2006, 09:48 PM
I remember the original article in VW-Porsche (dating myself) - if its the same car. Twin turbos, 350-V8, 550hp, 200+mph. It was white if IRMC.
Tooo cool!
Posted by: Headrage Jan 3 2006, 10:25 PM
| QUOTE (alpha434 @ Jan 3 2006, 07:09 PM) | ||||
Jeeze guys, whats the problem?!? It's just too cold to jack with my own car so i sit around here and make y'all sweat a little. Now is this a ninja? Or is it a terrorist? |
Sweat?
HAHAHA, jeez...
Posted by: bd1308 Jan 3 2006, 10:26 PM
| QUOTE (dwillouby @ Jan 3 2006, 07:21 PM) |
| hello, Been thinking about a new project. Has anyone driven a 914 over 200 mph? Enough horsepower can be obtained with a V8. Might need turbos to keep the motor reasonable. Aside from the required safety mods. any input on areo tricks would be helpful. I know a stock body tends to get very light at high speed. My stock bodied V8 conversion starts getting real skittish around 145. Can this be done or am I nuts? Thanks David |
OMG!
you HAVE to call me to take me for a ride!!!
b
Posted by: john rogers Jan 3 2006, 10:30 PM
Wasn't there an IMSA 914 with twin turbo power and snorkle type intakes that got close to 200 at the old Riverside raceway? It was converted back to it's real GT selt during a restoration I remember reading?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 3 2006, 10:37 PM
| QUOTE (john rogers @ Jan 3 2006, 09:30 PM) |
| Wasn't there an IMSA 914 with twin turbo power and snorkle type intakes that got close to 200 at the old Riverside raceway? It was converted back to it's real GT selt during a restoration I remember reading? |
the altec lansing car? big black one?
Posted by: cary Jan 3 2006, 11:17 PM
I was going to post a question to JP Stein.
Two years ago I was in Jeff Gamroths shop in Sherwood, Ore. We was building a NEW 914-GT for a gentlemen that owns a Carrera GT and an Enzo. It was a thing of beauty. Air cooler intake fabricated into the spare tire well up front. The 3.8RS engine was on a stand in the dyno room. Has anyone seen it at the track in Portland ? It is orange.
Jeff was talking F1 type performance. 0-60, a little over 3 seconds. It was a 916-GT type body. Not an IMSA kit. Speedster windshield. No roof.
I don't think the aero of car will let it go that fast. Will it ? The wing would be bigger than the car.
Posted by: messix Jan 4 2006, 12:36 AM
maxton mile is back east, north or south carolina? texas has some kinda open road event and a couple in nv and az
Posted by: Twystd1 Jan 4 2006, 12:50 AM
This isn't really all that difficult to do.
The technology is already done. Just takes some time and some CUBIC DOLLARS.
A little wind tunnel testing. Voila... 200+ MPH car.
The big question is the following:
How long do you want it to stay at 200MPH? One shot deal? 5 minutes? 1/2 hour?
Cause the build requirements CAN be very differant.
Dude.. Go for it. It can be done.. If ya want to meet some guys from the SCTA / Gear grinders in SoCal.
Gimme a mail.. They are used to go over 200MPH on Dirt..... (lake beds) Hell on Asphalt they are faster..
Carry on and make it happen.
And I hope you have CUBIC DOLLARS. Or a race shop and volunteers. Or you are just that nuts and make it work on the cheap. either way... JUST DO IT..!!
Happy New Year..!!
Twystd1
Posted by: sixnotfour Jan 4 2006, 12:58 AM
Von K
http://www.pbase.com/9146gt/image/22513934
Posted by: alpha434 Jan 4 2006, 12:59 AM
put in a low sloping windshield like porsche factory did. Then remove the rear window entirely. Angle the targa bar so it provides downforce. Or angle it at 0 and go langchek.
Langchec is german for longtail. 917s had a langchek version. The idea is that a longer spoiler eguals the same downforce with less drag.
911 whaletails are like this
Posted by: Cloudbuster Jan 4 2006, 01:42 AM
http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-21.html
The gist:
475 ponies will push a late model Camaro with a drag coefficient of .33 to a theoretical 212 mph with the right gearing. The 914 has a drag coefficient of .45.
The langheck 917s had no downforce, because Dr Piech wanted it that way.
Posted by: dwillouby Jan 4 2006, 06:52 AM
Thanks guys, This is still just a plan for now. I want the car to be able to reach 200 and maintain that just long enough to complete the measured section.
I was planning about 750 hp. The car will be very low with a slight rake. Was thinking about a Pro Stock style rear wing. I know that will provide down force with little drag. I am considering a Pantera transaxle. It would be very strong and I think ratios are available to get it up to speed.
I have been involved with motorcycle dragracing for many years, sportsman, prostock,top fuel. I know what it takes to go fast. $$$. Havent messed with going fast in a box much. Should be fun. One of my goals before I die is to go 200. I may be able to kill two birds with one stone!
Its gonna take money. Donations accepted!
Britt, One day this summer I will let you drive my V8 car.
David
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Jan 4 2006, 07:15 AM
| QUOTE (dwillouby @ Jan 4 2006, 08:52 AM) |
| One of my goals before I die is to go 200. I may be able to kill two birds with one stone! David |
Take a new Z06 Corvette for a test drive that will get you real close. Might even be cheaper than making a 914 go that fast and a hell of allot safer.
Bob
Posted by: ken914 Jan 4 2006, 08:43 AM
The article that I was referring to is from Excellence, February 2000 pages 71-76. I had posted it, but was reminded that it was copyrighted material...
Anyway, the article states that the Von K car had hit 194 MPH at Riverside using A LOT of extra bodywork and a 2.2 twin turbo motor that didn't stay together for more than a few laps...
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jan 4 2006, 12:43 PM
Getting a 914 over 200 shouldn't be all that difficult. Ruf got Yellow Bird (see below) up to 213 with roughly 500 hp and a five-speed gearbox with the right ratios -- and he did it by chopping down the car's frontal area as much as possible, as 1980s 911s were not exactly slippery cars. Probably no more slippery that 914s. And I suspect 914s have less frontal area.
Nor do you want a big wing -- you only want enough downforce to keep the thing safe. so the minimum downforce required to get the minimum drag. Of course, that may dictate a big-ass wing...
If Von K got that 914 up to 194 with those huge fenders and that barn-door strapped to the front end, then I suspect it would have gone far, far faster with, say, 16x7s and 16x9s tucked into stock 914 front fenders and pulled rear fenders. Didn't Ed Pink's crazy bright pink 914 use a setup similar to this with a 944 Turbo front bumper? I think it was on the cover of European Car, maybe when it was VW & Porsche?
I'd definitely want a windshield at those speeds, plus it would smooth things out past the roll cage needed for 200-mph running.
All that said, I don't fully understand the obsession with big speed. I've been up to 209 in the passenger seat, driven at a solid 185-195 mph, and done 177.865 mph on dirt with a nice bit of oversteer. None of those experiences were fun, really...
Oh well, different strokes... 
Attached image(s)
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jan 4 2006, 12:46 PM
One more...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: jgara962 Jan 4 2006, 12:52 PM
Man, that's a schweet ride
Posted by: SirAndy Jan 4 2006, 12:54 PM
| QUOTE (alpha434 @ Jan 3 2006, 10:59 PM) |
| Langchec is german for longtail. 917s had a langchek version. |
that would be "Langheck" ...
you got the chk all messed up.
AndyPS: and "Heck" does not mean tail either, more like the rear end. "Lang = Long" and "Heck = Rear".
The 911 Whale-Tail is called a "Heckspoiler" (and a big one at that ...) as is the ducktail ...
Posted by: jhadler Jan 4 2006, 01:50 PM
| QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Jan 3 2006, 11:42 PM) |
| http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-21.html The gist: 475 ponies will push a late model Camaro with a drag coefficient of .33 to a theoretical 212 mph with the right gearing. The 914 has a drag coefficient of .45. The langheck 917s had no downforce, because Dr Piech wanted it that way. |
I thought the 914 had a drag coefficient of 0.36...
-Josh2
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jan 4 2006, 01:54 PM
Ah yes, but the 200-mph Camaro used to win the Silver State was a 1969, which surely had a far worse cd than late-model Camaros do.
And it would be smog exempt to boot. Of course, that thing was basically a tube-frame car. But I digress.
Frontal area is important to remember, not just drag...
Posted by: Porcharu Jan 4 2006, 02:08 PM
Not a 914 but an example of how to go fast - I helped build a car for the old Silver State challenge back in the early 90's. We took a 83' Ford T-bird (a white previous Hertz rental car) put in a set of 2.47 rear end gears a T-5 trans that ran in 4th gear (1:1) for the run. The engine was a used stock HO 5.0 that we took apart and checked and set clearances and just put back together with new rings and bearings - it had about 50K miles on it. The shortblock was topped of with mildly ported stock heads with stock valves. This was combined with a mild Ford motorsports cam (B-303) and a GT-40 intake manifold, long tube headers and a Powerdyne blower set up to run a whopping 4 PSI, stock EFI was used. This engine probably made about 350HP. The car was not all that "fast feeling" on the street. On the first outing the car hit 184mph at around 5000 feet altitude.
The car used that engine for a few more years until it was pulled and replaced with a much more powerful 5.7l engine that had much better heads, big roller cam more boost etc. the car was now very quick feeling - actually scary fast on the street 60-100 happend almost as fast as you could press the fast pedal. It went 192mph in the same event that the mild 5.0 went 184.
Moral of the story? I don't really know. This particular car was aero limited at 192 and it was really pretty easy (and cheap) to go 184. I think you need to really think about the details to go really fast in anything.
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jan 4 2006, 03:41 PM
| QUOTE (srbliss @ Jan 4 2006, 12:08 PM) |
| I think you need to really think about the details to go really fast in anything. |
Exactly.I'd think about no side mirrors or maybe a 935 mirror on drivers side only, using the least aggressive front spoiler I could get away with (what would the stock pan do at 150+?!?!?), narrow 205-mm tires up front, the smoothest windshield trim possible, etc. Wonder what could be done UNDER the 914, too. At least one PCA/POC 914-6 has used an undertray with good results...
For power on the cheap (and maybe even for a big budget!), I think an SBC would be just about unbeatable for this application. Radiator hole would be a bummer, though. Definitely cover the foglight holes in the front bumper...
Posted by: TimT Jan 4 2006, 06:24 PM
You can approach the break the 200 mph barrier a few ways.. all cost lot of money. like modifying an exiting tub with all the tricks to make so that its easier to punch through the air using the least hp. Or by throwing lots of hp at it. The car I often drive is a 935 clone with massive rubber, big squared off 934/gtu flares, a big rear wing, open windows.. We have 800 hp available. The first time I broke 200 I didnt even know it untill I reviewed the data logs. We have since regeared the car so that all gears can be used on the tracks we typically drive on.
I bet you can give up alot of the aero aids we need on our car (we have to turn), and with enough space, and the right gearing, 200 shouldnt be to hard to achieve.
Do you want to go 200 on a closed course racetrack? or somewhere like Bonneville.. that will dictate which path you take
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 4 2006, 11:18 PM
Harold (?) Von Ks car was way ahead of its time in POC racing in the 70's -80's. He was running red class, when I was starting out in DE.
Real basic management, mfi fuel injection, huge intercooler and huge Garretts off of an 18 wheeler truck, and that huge "Ports o'call" intake scoop. It did wail down the backstraight of RIR and ran just as well or better than the rich guys 935
The engine was not its weakpoint...it was the transaxle. The 915 gearbox was usually opened and gearsets being swapped. The torque of the engine was shearing the teeth off the gears.
I believe that the car today is restored back to its Kremer GT origins.
Going 200+ sustained mph in a 914 today ? Hook up with a knowledgeable dry-lake vehicle builder. Spend some time in a wind tunnel. A car with a VW beetle type floorpan will hand you your a$$ at those speeds. But it can be done.
Marty
Posted by: sixnotfour Jan 4 2006, 11:27 PM
VonK
Attached File(s)
vonK.PSF ( 98.88k )
Number of downloads: 0
Posted by: airsix Jan 4 2006, 11:42 PM
For the benefit of those who haven't seen the car it's too bad that picture doesn't show the two HUGE snorkels very clearly. It made it very unique looking. I would have loved to have seen that car beating 935s.
-Ben M.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 4 2006, 11:54 PM
so i google turbbo 914...
and get this monstrosity! 
Posted by: bondo Jan 5 2006, 12:26 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 4 2006, 10:54 PM) |
| so i google turbbo 914... and get this monstrosity! |
Haha, that's hilarious! I like the insulation on the trunk lid!
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 5 2006, 12:27 AM
and the vented rear panel!
Posted by: MattR Jan 5 2006, 12:37 AM
my speedo says 120 mph. thats as fast as i can go 
Posted by: airsix Jan 5 2006, 01:45 AM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 4 2006, 09:54 PM) |
| so i google turbbo 914... and get this monstrosity! |
Now all my "wasn't clean enough" feelings about my own turbo install have just melted away.
-Ben M.
Posted by: YksKrad Jan 5 2006, 01:55 AM
Sorry I was reading and decided to toss in my $0.02, which prolely should mostly be ignored since I know jack about going fast.
Drag sounds like it'll be an issue. I remember hearing that the saleen s7 achievieves a lower drag coeffiecient by ducting air flow thru the car. Maybe this could be done with a 914. Lets face it, the front end on a 914 is relatively flat... Maybe cutting holes in the front end and ducting airflow out the sides and rear would be a good option.
These air channels could also be used to cool the engine...
And maybe one large radiator is not the way to go, but maybe split the cooling system with dual radiators... similar to the ones www.naerc.com offers for their diablo replicas.
Posted by: dwillouby Jan 5 2006, 10:14 AM
I might try some mods with my street 914 V8. Before I build another. Its got about 370 hp. It will run up to 150 with more possible. But it gets very light feeling. I know I need more down force. Any reccomendations on what seems to work for a driver not a race car?
Thanks
David
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jan 5 2006, 11:13 AM
Sound like you need to cancel lift before worrying about downforce.
The 996 GT3 RS and GT2 modesl used front bumpers with air outlets on their top surfaces, air coming through the central intake then vented upward instead of downward and this was a real benefit in Weissach's windtunnel testing.
Several 914s have had radiators ducted (usually unscientifically) in a similar way, usually with a much larger hole in the front hood with a giant duct system. If it was done right, I bet this -- along with the right rear wing -- would solve the 914's issues entirely...
But who's gonna pay for the windtunnel time to get it truly right...with minimum drag?
pete
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 5 2006, 12:44 PM
I think on a "budget", the key is simply to keep lift to a reasonable level, and overcome any induced drag with more power. Power is easier to get and measure than drag using the commonly available tools. With a turbo V8, as proposed, 500-800hp should be readily available, so drag shouldn't be a huge problem. Lift and aerodynamic stablity, however, will be.
In the 50s and 60s cars were just touching 200mph at LeMans, and generally wind tunnels weren't used. However, even into the 90s, cars were dangerously unstable at those speeds, even when (presumably) designed by professional aerodynamicists with millions of dollars in tools available to them.
Posted by: YksKrad Jan 5 2006, 02:54 PM
Another thought, the area behind the rear window is a vacum correct? At speed air cannot fill the void fast enough... That would cause the air under the car to push up (actually it always will push up just nothing will be pushing down with a vacum above it Chem-101) reduceing down force on the rear wheels, and also would result in increased drag... Perhaps a slopeing design of either plexi or sheet aluminium. You could then remove the rear trunk lid as well. You could test this on your current V8
Also remember a 200 mph car isn't necissarilly getting there fast. Keep as small of a clutch on as possible, same with brakes. Big breaks and clutch are good for speeding up and slawing down fast, but that isn't exactly necissary on the salt flats.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)