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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Any US 914-4 factory equipped with carbs?

Posted by: mistro Jan 5 2006, 10:38 PM

A coworker, who didn’t know I was into 914 until we were at the bar tonight, tells me that there were 914-4 sold in the US that were factory equipped with carbs. He thought 70 or 71. I say no, only carbed 914 was the 914-6. Whose right? A $100 rides on this. After posting this I’m headed to the books! I could double my winnings from the Texas win, or break even… Michael

Posted by: Mueller Jan 5 2006, 10:39 PM

I've only heard of the European 1.8 to be equipped with dual carbs from the factory.....

Make sure you get that $100 in cash

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Jan 5 2006, 10:42 PM

Gee,
this all sounds vaguely familiar!

See carb thread

Posted by: mistro Jan 5 2006, 10:46 PM

But I'm not asking if carbs could be added, and what the benefit would/could be. I'm asking if any 914-4 came from the factory into the US with carbs. Michael

Posted by: Mueller Jan 5 2006, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (mistro @ Jan 5 2006, 09:46 PM)
But I'm not asking if carbs could be added, and what the benefit would/could be. I'm asking if any 914-4 came from the factory into the US with carbs. Michael

and my post said NO

Posted by: mistro Jan 5 2006, 10:50 PM

I hear you Mueller.

Posted by: jim_hoyland Jan 5 2006, 10:51 PM

I once talked to a guy who bought one of the first 914's that entered the US through Canada. He said his car was carbed. This may have been a grey market deal. I think you are referring to cars sold by dealers

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 5 2006, 10:53 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 5 2006, 09:39 PM)
I've only heard of the European 1.8 to be equipped with dual carbs from the factory.....

Make sure you get that $100 in cash

euro 1.8 had VW PN manifolds and solex carbs....

Posted by: campbellcj Jan 5 2006, 10:55 PM

I sure have never heard of one. Excellence Was Expected would likely contain a definitive (or at least highly credible) answer...I'm out of town but maybe somebody has a copy handy.

Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 5 2006, 11:25 PM

The 4's all had FI unless its a euro 1.8L with those bus carbs

Posted by: McMark Jan 6 2006, 12:05 AM

Euro only is what I've heard. The carb thread does delve into this topic, but you have to read a lot to get there.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2006, 12:11 AM

I have a customer who HAS one that he claims he bought brand new with carbs in the US! truth or not- I don't know..

Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 6 2006, 12:31 AM

I don't believe it unless it was a dealer conversion using bus carbs.

Posted by: dmenche914 Jan 6 2006, 12:38 AM

I had a US spec 914 (ealry production 1970 model) that had no US emmisions stuff (no vapour recovery system) I wrote the factory and per the VIN they told me it was a US spec car. however there never was a evap system installed (no port on fan house, now lines nor holes for lines anywhere on the body etc....)

on the phone with the porsche folks, the guy told me that ecspecially early in prodution sometimes euro cars would get stickered as US cars and shipped to the US. So my 914 was tagged as a US model, sold in the US, but was built as a euro car. Off course it was a mistake , an exception to the rule. It did have regular D-jet, so that don't answer the carb question.

Posted by: gregrobbins Jan 6 2006, 12:45 AM

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 6 2006, 04:33 AM

QUOTE (mistro @ Jan 5 2006, 08:38 PM)
A $100 rides on this. After posting this I’m headed to the books! I could double my winnings from the Texas win, or break even…

no carbed 914 for the US. ever. there were 1.8L cars sold in europe with dual carbs, but never ever for the US market. ever. nope.

have fun with your $100!
Andy

Posted by: davep Jan 6 2006, 07:23 AM

with Andy

The official factory position was that all 914/4 came with D-jet FI except the 1.8L, and they had L-jet except for the Euro version which had carbs.

That said, there was at least one demonstrator that came to the USA with carbs. It was NOT street legal, was never licenced for the road, and never legally sold. Therefor, in terms of your bet, it does not count.

As far as the reference to a car coming through Canada, I find that rather hokey. First, the only 914 that Canada sold in the first two years was a single 914/6, and it was never street licenced. VW Canada did not import the 914 until the 1972 model year in any quantity. Second, all 914/4 sold in Canada had FI.

So, Jim and Jake, if we could get more definitive information from your sources, it could be interesting. Please get them to contact me if you can.

mistro, collect on your bet.

Posted by: JmuRiz Jan 6 2006, 08:35 AM

Wasn't there a pic floating around of the euro 1.8L with the carbs. The setup was rather cool. Always wondered if you could use the airbox, replace the carbs with an FI system and run a turbo on it....hmmmmm

Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 6 2006, 09:05 AM

QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Jan 5 2006, 10:38 PM)
I had a US spec 914 (ealry production 1970 model) that had no US emmisions stuff (no vapour recovery system) I wrote the factory and per the VIN they told me it was a US spec car. however there never was a evap system installed (no port on fan house, now lines nor holes for lines anywhere on the body etc....)

on the phone with the porsche folks, the guy told me that ecspecially early in prodution sometimes euro cars would get stickered as US cars and shipped to the US. So my 914 was tagged as a US model, sold in the US, but was built as a euro car. Off course it was a mistake , an exception to the rule. It did have regular D-jet, so that don't answer the carb question.

What was the VIN as the 70 I had (29**)also didn't any of that stuff and I still have the djet parts of it.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 6 2006, 09:08 AM

QUOTE (mistro @ Jan 5 2006, 11:46 PM)
I'm asking if any 914-4 came from the factory into the US with carbs.

I know of only one new 914-4 that came to the US with carbs, but it was not sold at any dealership. Les Handley's Production race car had a pair of Solex P-40's on it when it entered the country. I don't think the car was ever registered for use on public roads but I might be wrong about that. Les is the second owner of the car.

Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 6 2006, 09:12 AM

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Jan 6 2006, 10:05 AM)
What was the VIN as the 70 I had (29**)also didn't any of that stuff and I still have the djet parts of it.

I'm pretty sure my first 914 (the tangerine race car) had NO evaporative system either. I think the VIN# is below 7000, something like 4702906743

Posted by: kwales Jan 6 2006, 10:11 AM

And the factory parts book sez.....

Vergaser-obersicht's were only available for 914-1.8 V models.....

And the kraftstoffpumpe for the vergasers was avalable for the 914-18 V model only.

Thats carbs and pumps fer you heathens...

Ken

Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 6 2006, 10:24 AM

QUOTE (davep @ Jan 6 2006, 09:23 AM)

As far as the reference to a car coming through Canada, I find that rather hokey. First, the only 914 that Canada sold in the first two years was a single 914/6, and it was never street licenced. VW Canada did not import the 914 until the 1972 model year in any quantity. Second, all 914/4 sold in Canada had FI.

Posted by: horizontally-opposed Jan 6 2006, 10:52 AM

If there's one thing I've learned about Porsche, it's to NEVER rule anything out -- epsecially when it comes to this kind of stuff.

I agree that no 914-4s came to the U.S. officially with carbs, but we are talking about 35+years ago here, and strange things happen. Just take 996 and 993 Turbos with hollow spoke 18s that didn't get them due to supply problems. Looks like the same may be happening again with Caymans on the base 18s. There are other parts over the years that the factory said would be in cars but then couldn't get enough of initially. It happened 50 years ago, it happens now.

Now, that said, fuel-injected motors are hardly similar in terms of being a bolt-on item that the factory might have had supply problems with...

So I agree with Andy and others -- but just not with being absolutist about it. Porsche has been known to do some dubious things from time to time.

pete

Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 6 2006, 11:10 AM

Since 914's were assembled at the Karmann plant, VW supplied the engines from their own engine lines. These were the same basically as the 411/412 cars so I can't see how they would just throw together whatever to get the cars out.

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2006, 11:29 AM

My customer also claims he had the 40 P 11 Solexes from the factory on his engine, just like Les's engine... And it has the industrial manifolds.

The engine came to me as a core set up like this in 2001 and he bought the car new in 1971.

I have emailed him to see if he will chime in here.

Posted by: kwales Jan 6 2006, 12:01 PM

Went and checked those 2 sets of bus carbs and manifolds I have stashed in the garage..

They are 32-34's (not the 40's in the 914 parts manual) and the manifolds are different than the ones pictured in the parts catalog. That's one way to tell if they are real 914..

Learn something new every day....

Ken the man who buys vw junk at swaps

Posted by: davep Jan 6 2006, 12:18 PM

I can say it was Les's car I was referring to, and the VIN is under 00100. As I stated it was a demonstrator, and should have been returned to the factory. This car was sold out of the back door, and could never be driven on the street. Simply put, it was never 'delivered to a customer'. Perhaps the car and engine Jake refers to was the same thing; I'd assume that more than one demonstrator was required for the country. As to why the demonstrator had carbs is not known. The FI was a big feature of the 914/4 compared to the cars it was competing against in the market.

Porsche sent early cars as demonstrators of the new models. A friend has a 911 he bought in 1965 in the UK. It was the UK demonstrator / auto show car. They had to take the car to France for a few hours, then return with it to be able to get the required paperwork to sell it. He had to post a bond stating that when he returned to Canada, he had to take the car with him: it could not remain in the UK permanently, it only had a 'visitor's permit'. He still has the car, and it is probably the 911 with the longest ownership of the original purchaser.

Posted by: Mueller Jan 6 2006, 12:22 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 5 2006, 09:53 PM)
euro 1.8 had VW PN manifolds and solex carbs....

here are a few pics I took of one I saw in France a few years ago (car is registered to a German guy that works at the plant they build the Boxsters at)

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mueller Jan 6 2006, 12:23 PM

another view:

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 6 2006, 12:41 PM

ok... so they were single barrel carbs....

Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2006, 01:44 PM

FWIW- The engine code on the customer's engine did not match the case specifics. It was a "W" case with a serial number of only #163. It is by far the earliest TIV case I have seen made of aluminum, the others of that era were not W coded and were Magnesium.

This case was od because it had a provision for a windage tray and thats not typically found in a case easlier than a prefiz "1" W case. It also had a pair of "Z" coded 1.7 heads with smaller chambers that I had never seen before, or since.

It don't matter though, because now its a 2270!

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 6 2006, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Jan 5 2006, 10:38 PM)
on the phone with the porsche folks, the guy told me that ecspecially early in prodution sometimes euro cars would get stickered as US cars and shipped to the US. ... It did have regular D-jet...

Exactly--the European-spec 1.7s and 2.0s used D-jetronic fuel injection, not carbs.

The only way I could see a 1.7 being delivered with carbs is if someone at the Karmann factory mistakenly stuck a 411 engine (carbed version) into a 914, instead of the injected version.

--DD

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 6 2006, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 6 2006, 10:22 AM)
here are a few pics I took of one I saw in France a few years ago (car is registered to a German guy that works at the plant they build the Boxsters at)

that looks very much like a 411 setup ...

Andy

Posted by: Gearhead1432 Jan 6 2006, 02:54 PM

Hmm. never heard of a factory 411 getting solex 40 p 11s (I thought it was a Porsche carb?). Not to say it didn't happen it just doesn't sound like something VW would do.

Did any other motor other than those fitted to 356s and 912s get 40 p 11s?

Jake, I find that very interesting. Could you share any photos? Was the motor fitted with a fuel pump or CHT sensor?

My stance it still that no US market 914/4 ever came from the factory with carbs. I have a hard time beliving otherwise unless some one can come up with some records to prove other wise. There is more than reasonable doubt that any US market 914 ever came with any kind of carb. The burdon of proof is on the other side.

-Rob

Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 6 2006, 03:58 PM

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 6 2006, 12:40 PM)
that looks very much like a 411 setup ...

There are a few more pics of it in the English-language 74 European-spec owner's manual I have. I do wish there was some place I could upload it so that people could download it and check out the differences. (hint, hint!)

--DD

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 6 2006, 04:49 PM

QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Jan 6 2006, 01:58 PM)
[I do wish there was some place I could upload it so that people could download it and check out the differences. (hint, hint!)

squeaky dave gets the FTP access ...

Andy

Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Jan 6 2006, 05:18 PM

US 914/4s were equipped with FI because of US emissions requirements. Now where did I hear that...?

The 1968 T3 VWs were the first VW boxer engines equipped with D-Jet and one of the first production cars to get FI.

Posted by: alpha434 Jan 6 2006, 05:38 PM

so eliminate the outliers.... i.e. backdoor deals, and stuff that wasn't proven. The bible mentions nothing of a carbed 914 entering the u.s. originally.

BUT!!! No doubt somebody was swapping out the FI at day one. So one might've even been bought from a dealership like that.

Posted by: dmenche914 Jan 6 2006, 05:49 PM

My 1970 is gone now, but I recall the Vin was something like 1300th or theres about car made, build date was late 1969 per door jam sticker. No evap system, federal spec, and the factory said it was supposed to come with it, UHM?????? (1.7 l D-jet)

Posted by: SLITS Jan 6 2006, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 6 2006, 03:49 PM)

QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Jan 6 2006, 01:58 PM)
[I do wish there was some place I could upload it so that people could download it and check out the differences. (hint, hint!)

squeaky dave gets the FTP access ...

Andy

Gasp he gave a pelicanite fencesitter ftp access.................what is this world coming to?

Posted by: Rambo Jan 13 2006, 07:07 PM

OK folks,I don't know a thing bout these things, but I gots a '72 914/4 with carbs...would I be better off with FI?...is the VIn on the engine someplace...since what I really have is 1/2 a Porsche, the other half being a 1985 Goldwing Limited Edition......all I gotta do is figure out how to get it started...........

Posted by: SirAndy Jan 13 2006, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Rambo @ Jan 13 2006, 05:07 PM)
OK folks,I don't know a thing bout these things, but I gots a '72 914/4 with carbs...
would I be better off with FI?...

not stock, someone converted it along the way ...

if it runs OK, why bother?
Andy

Posted by: Rambo Jan 14 2006, 07:32 PM

I guess it will run ok again after I determine what is wrong with it so i can start it..........