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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ why no turbo 914's out there?
Posted by: Next GenRacing Jan 7 2006, 01:59 PM
i am relatively new to the 914 scene, but i am curious as to why there is no turbo'd 914's out there, at least none that i could find.
the main problem i can see is the heat, but couldn't this be overcome with a front mount oil cooler?
i am experienced in turbo theorys as well as built 3 different turbo cars (from NA to turbo)
let me know if there is something i am missing here?
Danny
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 7 2006, 02:09 PM
There are a few out there mostly 1.7l's as the 2.0l suffer from blowby due to the thin sealing surface between heads and the cylinders.
SammyG made a 2.0l turbo that was blowthru sold it and Mark L had then sold it and the motor was made NA again
BenM has one in Eastern Wa thats a 1.7l with Kjet on it, runs good
EJM had one back east and has sold it, 1.7l
Jenny's brother had a 2.0L djet one that shot 3 ft flames out the tailpipe when shifting, he loved to race people haha. Think its dead right now
There are no kits at the time but Jake is working on a new setup to solve the head sealing issue. The more boost you apply the quicker the heads/cylinders fail at this time if larger than 90mm 
Posted by: fuch toy Jan 7 2006, 02:09 PM
Because you can't turbo a 914
Posted by: Joe Sharp Jan 7 2006, 02:09 PM
I can't HELP myself. Everybodyknowsyoucan'tturboateener. 
Several club members have turboed cars. airsix, imchappy, Marty at MSDS built kits for it in the 70's. There a few turboed cars around.
:PERMAGRIN: Joe
Posted by: seanery Jan 7 2006, 02:11 PM
there are a couple of turbo'd -6 owners in the club, too.
I know of 3.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 7 2006, 02:14 PM
here's a turbo 914 
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Posted by: TimT Jan 7 2006, 02:18 PM
Rich Clewett has a turbo 914/6 i believe
Posted by: seanery Jan 7 2006, 02:21 PM
yup, it's sweet!
Rich Clewett
Marty
Chappy all have turbo 6s.
Posted by: VegasRacer Jan 7 2006, 02:34 PM
| QUOTE (fuch toy @ Jan 7 2006, 01:09 PM) |
| Because you can't turbo a 914 |
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Posted by: Kerrys914 Jan 7 2006, 02:35 PM
Don't forget the nicest 914 turbo of ALL....HANDS DOWN. 
The one Ed V. built and is now owned by John I. in PA.
This car is sweet and very well thought out. 
Best of luck
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Jan 7 2006, 02:37 PM
Otto ran a home made 914/6 turbo at the first parade in Monterey and VERY nearly beat Bill Yates for FTD in the Parade Driving Event. The Cap'n
Posted by: Mueller Jan 7 2006, 02:45 PM
| QUOTE (Next GenRacing @ Jan 7 2006, 12:59 PM) |
| i am relatively new to the 914 scene, but i am curious as to why there is no turbo'd 914's out there, at least none that i could find. the main problem i can see is the heat, but couldn't this be overcome with a front mount oil cooler? i am experienced in turbo theorys as well as built 3 different turbo cars (from NA to turbo) let me know if there is something i am missing here? Danny |
for most people it's easier or more cost effective to install a /6 engine....like mentioned above, there are a few turbo /4's and /6's running around...
currently there are no kits available brand new and of the few that had been available during the 70's and 80's, not many had been sold or installed.....
with the advent of cheaper affordable programable electronic fuel injection/ignition control, a few more people have been installing turbos onto thier 914's
I've been a little sidetracked for the last few months, but I am attempting a turbo install on my 1.8 /4 motor
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=41203&hl=turbo
Posted by: tat2dphreak Jan 7 2006, 02:58 PM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Jan 7 2006, 03:14 PM) |
| here's a turbo 914 |
where's the car?
Posted by: dmenche914 Jan 7 2006, 03:05 PM
Turbos and Hooters, this is a eye candy thread! More photos Please!
The book "Turbomania " by Bob Tomlinson, (published by CB Reformance, order thru them) has a couple photos of a 914 turbo. It was a kit sold by Bernie Bergman, pg 71.
This book is really good for aircooled turbo info, and good for a general understanding of turbos, I learned a lot from it. It is most all Type I VW stuff, but does have other info.
it is an older book, and as Mike Mueller pointed out, there is a lot of knew stuff with EFI, and such. This book is more old school carb set ups, but the info contained, with knowledge or modern engine managment stystems added, one could build an even better 914 Turbo form one of the old kits.
Page 71 has a good photo of the entire turbo unit installed on a 914 engine and transmission laying on the floor, it gives a clear view of ALL the plumbing that was used. The turbo itself located passenger side of the tranny, about mid way between rear of CV axles and back of tranny. Frankly I would add a snorkle to get cool intake air into the thing. This pictured set up has the air cleaner inlet next to the turbo, above the heat exchangers! Hot set up in more ways than one!
More photos!!!!
Posted by: rpmmaxxed Jan 7 2006, 03:22 PM
I'm waitin for someone to do a full "DIY, HOW TO" writeup so I can duplicate it...
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 7 2006, 03:58 PM
hmmm
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Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 7 2006, 04:00 PM
find one of these on ebay
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Posted by: silversprint Jan 7 2006, 04:16 PM
A 2.1L turbo-4 built by Car Craft in riverside in the 'mid 90s. I bought it cheap. It sat in storage for several years. I have just recently started to put it back together again only to find rusted floor and rear firewall. So the motor will get swapped into a new chassis I just purchased. Not sure yet, put I may just return to motor to NA. Don't really like cutting the trunk floor.
A very basic setup with no intercooling. Not very clean but seems to work well.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 7 2006, 04:17 PM
floor pans is easy to replace!
Posted by: nein14 Jan 7 2006, 04:22 PM
here you go
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Posted by: dmenche914 Jan 7 2006, 05:35 PM
Nice photo all, Thanks. Still some of the intakes pictured are near exhaust (unless maybe the trunk lid on the car with turbo in the rear trunk is ducted for top side air) or if the intake is up high in the cooler top side of engine, however the turbo in the engine bay would raise cooling fan and intake temps with that hot exhaust running up into the engine bay.
me thinks the turbo down low, near tranny , with a duct thru the rear engine shroud, into the engien bay for an air intake, would be good. Cool intake source, combined with turbo out of the engine bay under the car.
From what I understand the more modern approach is the push thru types, verses the suck thru type. but that requires a sealed carb or have an air box sealing the carb, a suck thru type can be made to work on a regular carb, just bolt it to the manifold. Of course with fuel inject they are all push thru types, No one puts the injectors before the turbo right? (unless its a jet engine.)
The Hooters pictured were top notch, Thank You. although they have little at all to do with are debate of the merits of Suck Thru vs Push Thru on a turbo engine.
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 7 2006, 05:49 PM
Down low by the tranny sounds good but you still have to locate a good oil return line from the turbo to the engine.
Maybe to a fitting drilled into the oil sump as its gravity feed IIRC
Posted by: Britain Smith Jan 7 2006, 06:17 PM
You could always put the type-4 engine in the back of a 912 and turbocharge it...oh wait, that is what I did...
-Britain
Posted by: Mugs914 Jan 7 2006, 06:49 PM
I love that motor Britain! Nice work!
Posted by: dmenche914 Jan 7 2006, 07:18 PM
ditto that, gravity feed is good, stops burned on carborized oil in the turbo bearings., you also need to keep the oil runnig thru the turbo for cooldown, or always remember to idle after a hot run to let it cool down
Posted by: URY914 Jan 7 2006, 08:42 PM
Ed's tubro
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Posted by: URY914 Jan 7 2006, 08:42 PM
nutter
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Posted by: airsix Jan 8 2006, 01:31 AM
| QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Jan 7 2006, 03:35 PM) |
| me thinks the turbo down low, near tranny , with a duct thru the rear engine shroud, into the engien bay for an air intake, would be good. Cool intake source, combined with turbo out of the engine bay under the car. |
Exactly what I did. There are a few pictures in my blog (see link below).
-Ben M.
Posted by: eds72 Jan 8 2006, 01:56 AM
I'm building my 1st 914, and my 2nd T1 VW turbo motor. My 914 will be a turboed 1911. 2.0 heads, European "h" grind on 114 LC's, T3 turbo, and either dual 45 Dells, or a MSnS set up. There seems to be a couple of different ways of trying to keep the heads sealed off. Still working on that for the T4.
Posted by: Mueller Jan 8 2006, 02:03 AM
| QUOTE (silversprint @ Jan 7 2006, 03:16 PM) |
| A 2.1L turbo-4 built by Car Craft in riverside in the 'mid 90s. I bought it cheap. It sat in storage for several years. I have just recently started to put it back together again only to find rusted floor and rear firewall. So the motor will get swapped into a new chassis I just purchased. Not sure yet, put I may just return to motor to NA. Don't really like cutting the trunk floor. A very basic setup with no intercooling. Not very clean but seems to work well. |
Car Craft the magazine or is that a shop??
I'd be embarrassed to put my name on that install....of course I'm sure it was built in the dark ages of fuel injection
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 8 2006, 03:43 AM
I sketched this out in 1975 at L.A. Trade Tech. When I met some other gearheads and showed them the sketch, we got to bending tube, and welding. I then purchased a Rajay turbo from Spearco, bolted it all up and hoped for 150bhp. We dyno'd 146 at the rear wheels @ 7 psi, and word got around about the bolt in kit. The 914 turbo 2.0 could take a 75 911 2.7 in the 1/4 mile, not by much...but embarassing to the 911 driver We built the kits until 1985, when they lost interest in the market.
Marty
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Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 8 2006, 03:46 AM
...and in "VW Greats" June 1976, Turbomania. This was how the kit looked from the underside. My 2.0 actually outdrove the 1976 930 turbo, driven by editor Jay Amestoy at the old Irwindale Raceway 1/4 mile-- who couldn't launch the thing--and got caught up in turbo lag.
Marty
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Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 8 2006, 09:14 AM
Tell us more Marty. Any special cam changes? any special head sealing? What did you run for a carb? You rule man!
Posted by: Bleyseng Jan 8 2006, 10:48 AM
I am looking at how clean and new the bottom of Marty's car looks compared to the pics of BenM's in his Blog!
What 30 years of oil and grime will do the bottom of a car.
Posted by: Next GenRacing Jan 8 2006, 12:03 PM
wow what a response, if i do decide to go turbo i will definatly go with either an smt6 piggyback or a complete standalone.
how are the internals of the motor? are they stout enough stock to handle the extra power? (btw i am not planning anything crazy prob not even an intercooler)
also i never really saw any info on the added heat, i will most definatly want to install a cooler in the front of the car right?
Danny
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 8 2006, 12:23 PM
Marty...what was your turbo specs? What would you use now?
What would you do now (change) given the chance.?
I really thinking of doing a turbo with Mueller's bottom end parts that I'm buying.
My Specs so far
SDS EM-4F, FI w/ crankfire programable ignition.
78mm Raby balanced bottom end
94mm Nickies, w/ 94mm Type 1 Cima pistons.
Squareport heads, welded and modified.
Cam Raby FI grind (have) or I'll get a turbo grind.
SSI's modified (I want to keep the heat)
I'd like some kind of deep sump.
Intercooler (of some kind...air to air or air to water)
Anyone that has any input on my turbo set-up... I'm all ears right now. Thanks.
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 8 2006, 09:54 PM
Rick/ Mark
the basic c-r of the 2.0 was perfect for a safe 7psi of boost with the oe EFI. The Rajay 375/ 377 series B40 was good for 14 psi, and easily controlled with a blow off diverter (Impco- as in propane) at the intake manifold. A B25 series would boost sooner, and would require a wastegate to keep it from serious overspeeding and surging. Since I kept the boost at 7 psi, and ran 98 pump with stock timing- didn't even need intercooling or water injection. I did supply an enrichment module- basically just brought in the cold start injector @ 3 psi boost. A 21st century T4 kit would use a Turbonetics ceramic BB turbo, air/air intercooler, boost sensitive FPR, fr. oil cooling, wastegate, egt gauge, forged pistons w/ bigger ring lands, and dowel pinned case.
Funny thing that Turbonetics recently acquired the Rajay rights/ product line.
Rajay is still going strong in aircraft and motorcycles.
Pic of engine compartment and turbo kit shipment.
Marty
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Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 8 2006, 09:58 PM
kick ass marty
Posted by: airsix Jan 8 2006, 10:04 PM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Jan 8 2006, 08:48 AM) |
| I am looking at how clean and new the bottom of Marty's car looks compared to the pics of BenM's in his Blog! What 30 years of oil and grime will do the bottom of a car. |
30 years? Nahh. I clean it all off every 3 years or so! No matter what I do the oil finds ways to get out.
-Ben M.
Posted by: Travis Neff Jan 8 2006, 10:14 PM
I like the Michelob coil
Posted by: rick 918-S Jan 9 2006, 12:14 AM
| QUOTE (Maltese Falcon @ Jan 8 2006, 07:54 PM) |
| Rick/ Mark the basic c-r of the 2.0 was perfect for a safe 7psi of boost with the oe EFI. The Rajay 375/ 377 series B40 was good for 14 psi, and easily controlled with a blow off diverter (Impco- as in propane) at the intake manifold. A B25 series would boost sooner, and would require a wastegate to keep it from serious overspeeding and surging. Since I kept the boost at 7 psi, and ran 98 pump with stock timing- didn't even need intercooling or water injection. I did supply an enrichment module- basically just brought in the cold start injector @ 3 psi boost. A 21st century T4 kit would use a Turbonetics ceramic BB turbo, air/air intercooler, boost sensitive FPR, fr. oil cooling, wastegate, egt gauge, forged pistons w/ bigger ring lands, and dowel pinned case. Funny thing that Turbonetics recently acquired the Rajay rights/ product line. Rajay is still going strong in aircraft and motorcycles. Pic of engine compartment and turbo kit shipment. Marty |
Marty you ROCK!
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 9 2006, 09:05 AM
I'm 8 weeks into dedicated Turbo development..... I have already smoked two engines on purpose proving some points and have a third on the dyno as we speak.
The only thing I'm doing in 2006 for R&D is forced induction work, the entire research budget is getting droopped into it! In the past i have built a few Turbo engines,m played with a few units but never took it seriously because I was too tied up with N/A developments. With the N/A stuff so perfected I can afford to take the time to do nothing but Turbo stuff for a while.
By the end of the year I'll have a complete 914 Turbo system ready to sale, all as an engineered unit with EFI/DTM cooling/Turbo header/Intercooler, th entire arrangement will be designed together for well rounded performance, so don't think I'll be selling individual parts to help you get yourself into deep shit!. I just learned about another "Stromberg" thats out there lurking copying and pasting so I'll have to keep it all under the covers until a majority of the work is finished.
There are quite a few design flaws with the TIV that do not compliment Turbocharging. My development is being done to illustrate these issues more clearly and also to aid in their cures.
Most of the work I'm doing now is with stock engines from my stash, as soon as I get some more data I'll be applying what we learn to create 2 more Turbo engine kits based on the entire arrangement.
Turbo is a different world- no doubt! I have one engine thats going to see 10 camshaft changes alone while being manipulated on the dyno with various boost to see what happens with drastically different, or slightly different cams, one of the cams only has a 2.5degree lobe center change compared to it's likeness.
Project 2081 will generate close to 400 HP at about 10 PSI boost and will be in the MassIVe 914 by September if all goes as planned!
Posted by: rpmmaxxed Jan 9 2006, 10:09 AM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 9 2006, 07:05 AM) |
| I'm 8 weeks into dedicated Turbo development..... I have already smoked two engines on purpose proving some points and have a third on the dyno as we speak. The only thing I'm doing in 2006 for R&D is forced induction work, the entire research budget is getting droopped into it! In the past i have built a few Turbo engines,m played with a few units but never took it seriously because I was too tied up with N/A developments. With the N/A stuff so perfected I can afford to take the time to do nothing but Turbo stuff for a while. By the end of the year I'll have a complete 914 Turbo system ready to sale, all as an engineered unit with EFI/DTM cooling/Turbo header/Intercooler, th entire arrangement will be designed together for well rounded performance, so don't think I'll be selling individual parts to help you get yourself into deep shit!. I just learned about another "Stromberg" thats out there lurking copying and pasting so I'll have to keep it all under the covers until a majority of the work is finished. There are quite a few design flaws with the TIV that do not compliment Turbocharging. My development is being done to illustrate these issues more clearly and also to aid in their cures. Most of the work I'm doing now is with stock engines from my stash, as soon as I get some more data I'll be applying what we learn to create 2 more Turbo engine kits based on the entire arrangement. Turbo is a different world- no doubt! I have one engine thats going to see 10 camshaft changes alone while being manipulated on the dyno with various boost to see what happens with drastically different, or slightly different cams, one of the cams only has a 2.5degree lobe center change compared to it's likeness. Project 2081 will generate close to 400 HP at about 10 PSI boost and will be in the MassIVe 914 by September if all goes as planned! |
Look forward to seeing the final product jake, and which Limb I need to sell to get ahold of it
Sure it will be worth the nut though...
Posted by: andys Jan 9 2006, 10:48 AM
| QUOTE (Maltese Falcon @ Jan 8 2006, 01:43 AM) |
| I sketched this out in 1975 at L.A. Trade Tech. When I met some other gearheads and showed them the sketch, we got to bending tube, and welding. I then purchased a Rajay turbo from Spearco, bolted it all up and hoped for 150bhp. We dyno'd 146 at the rear wheels @ 7 psi, and word got around about the bolt in kit. The 914 turbo 2.0 could take a 75 911 2.7 in the 1/4 mile, not by much...but embarassing to the 911 driver We built the kits until 1985, when they lost interest in the market. Marty |
Marty,
Hey, I went through the Plastics program at LA Trade Tech, '69-'71.......Interesting place in those days. Parking deck trash cans filled to the brim with beer and wine bottles after lunch break. Many students were Viet Nam Vet's on GI bill.....Oh the stories!
At that time, I built a '69 Rambler (AMC) American with a T4 turbo, then a Fiat 124 turbo (RayJay), then the 914 Turbo using the Crown Kit (very similar to your's).
Andys
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 9 2006, 07:51 PM
Andys ...LOL on LATTC ! You must have had VIP parking. We parked in a lot under the 10 Fwy (near maple St.) and hiked 3 blocks to class. One day my Impala SS would'nt start, and I figured they just jacked my battery. Turns out the locals did get the battery, carb. , and siphoned a tank of gas too 
Great memories of downtown L.A.
Marty
Posted by: nola914 Jan 19 2006, 06:03 PM
I found this old topic the other night while I was bored and I thought I'd let you know that there is one other turbo 914 engine still in existance. It was built back in the early 1980's exactly based on the 1978 plans. It's a 1973 2.0 GA block. The turbo is down low next to the trans, behind the axles with the intake and return pipes passing over the axles and through the rear engine cover. The exhaust set up is exactly the same as the old photograph with the four into one piping and the monza muffler. With this setup all off the hot stuff is under the vehicle in the air stream, and out of the engine compartment.
The oil is fed from a tee below the oil pressure sending switch and returns from the turbo by gravity to a fitting braised into the right valve cover.
It uses the original 2.0 fuel injection system with a few added parts, like a rising fuel pressure valve and a second aux. air valve. I think that the builder was using the cold start valve as a 5th injector but I can't figure out how he was tripping it. That's my biggest problem...figuring the hose connections because the guy I bought it from took all of them all apart.
I bought it about 3 years a go to keep it from going to the yard. The builder wrecked the 914 when it started to fly and flipped on its lid. Don't know how fast he was going but it skidded far enough to sand away a hole in the targa. I'm the 3rd owner, and in between some of the parts and the hoses were removed. The second PO finally gave up on figuring it out and was ready to trash it. I bought it just to keep it around. Because the body is mashed I don't put much effort into completing the engine, but its mostly still intact and I work on it when I feel like it.
I'll try and post some pics but this is my first post on this board so I'll have to figure that out.
Posted by: jd74914 Jan 19 2006, 06:29 PM
Cool, can't wait to see pictures
Posted by: okieflyr Jan 19 2006, 06:53 PM
Reminds me when I was 19 (circa 1983?) I'd bought a turbocharging book by Banks. Later I stumbled on to a working leftover turbo from an Alfa GTV kit and proceeded to building it onto my nice 73 2.0. My local independant Porsche expert mechanic Bob Dumont, gave the sugestions of raising the fuel press, extra tourque on the heads ect...
I was mounting the turbo similar to these as it was located low near the axle, but do to limited space (not cutting the trunk), I couldn't get the proper height for good oil drainage. It smoked quite a bit after running a little while, but the first taste of boost was SWEET! Unfortunately I ran out of time and money,It was my daily commuter to work, and I had to abandon the mods and go back to stock. 
Fast foward to 2005/6 I now have a 76 with a 2003 GTI Turbo 200hp/220tq 1.8 motor that should be running in a few months? 
Kevin(taste the boost)Barnes
Posted by: Joe Ricard Jan 19 2006, 06:55 PM
Well I'm hell bent on getting a Turbo for the Red Neck Racer. We going to show the ricer boys how it's done. All your Street mod Civics are belong to me. 
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 19 2006, 06:57 PM
I wonder where the hell Joe is getting the Turbo from!
LOL
Posted by: Rambo Jan 19 2006, 11:50 PM
Jake:
You got some damn beautiful machines, I should have worked on cars instead of read comic books and go to Nam.
Rambo
Posted by: nola914 Jan 20 2006, 07:34 PM
Here is the set of pics of the old 2.0 turbo engine that I'm trying to put back together. It was built in the early 80's according to the specs in the 1978 mag article that Falcon mentioned earlier in this post. Thinking about it, this may be the oldest 914 turbo still around. Guess I'll have to get up off of it and get it finished...someday. Pic1
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Posted by: nola914 Jan 20 2006, 07:36 PM
Pic 2.
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Posted by: nola914 Jan 20 2006, 07:38 PM
pic 3
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Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 20 2006, 07:40 PM
very cool!
Posted by: nola914 Jan 20 2006, 07:46 PM
Pic 4.
Few notes. The "C" clamp next to the turbo is holding the turbo mount plate in place against the trans mount. The trans mount bolt holds in it place in the teener. The blue fitting below the turbo is for the oil return line (Not in place) that dips below the axle and routes to the valve cover gasket. The black line on top of the turbo pipe going back to the intake is the oil supply. It's a "sleeved" copper tubing.
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Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 21 2006, 01:52 AM
Nola914, that's one of the msds T4 kits...however got some repairs/ hacks to it, proll'y from some of the PO's and that wicked granite injection
The Blow off valve has been changed out from our Impco brand to a BAE brand. Both function the same but look different.
BAE (Bob McClure) unfortunately lost his life in an aircraft mishap--the direction of the company sank and evaporated.
We built T4 kits from 1976 thru 1986, and currently not in production. PM me and I'll provide you with the 5th inj. circuit for enrichment.
There is one perfect 1976 turbo 2.0 running in L.A. with our system, it belongs to a guy in the Black Porsche Owners Club/ L.A. We originally built this for his Dad 30 years ago.
Marty
Posted by: nola914 Jan 22 2006, 10:38 PM
Falcon: The biggest change I know of was the air intake, where the PO eliminated the rubber radiator pipe and alum "cake pan" air filter and substituted the welded pipe (which is supposed to have a cone filter on the end). He gave me the old parts, but I couldn't figure out is how the blowoff was mounted. There isn't a mount plate or strut that seems to belong to it. Was it just held up by the radiator hose?
I'll PM you with a few other questions about the cold start valve setup and the rising rate fuel valve. Thanks. Also glad to know that there is other of the T4's still out there.
Posted by: porsha916 Jan 22 2006, 11:13 PM
I have bits and pieces of a turbo conversion, It looks to me like they used a center mounted two barrel carb, and mounted the turbo just in front of the muffler on one side, the muffler pipes before and after the turbo are clamped together with hose clamps! You would have to fill the float with foam and pressurize the float chamber vent, I wouldn't not expect the carb to handle a lot of boost but it would be simple!If anyone wants the parts, let me know, I will sell them cheap!!! I will post a picture in parts for sale and a price.
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