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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 1.7 engine cylinder leak
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 05:17 PM
Well the Shaggy-mobile has been down since just after C-mas. 
It seems to sound like a compression leak to me.
The sound started off quite faint but has become louder, kind of a "huffing" sound from the engine.
It starts ok, it runs ok, just very anemically (no power), but still seems smooth, both running and idling. 
BTW, I am paying close attention to the following thread- http://http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=44046 
The Shaggster is going to lash the valves this evening as to see what is up, then he will try to operate it again and if it does not operate well, he will then conduct a compression test. 
Does that sound right?
Anybody want to register any experienced or educated guesses as to this latest malady?
The engine was out of the car recently, and the valves we adjusted by the Shaggy MANY times.
Wish the lad luck, I am concerned he is gonna need it...... 
John
P.S. 
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 10 2006, 05:30 PM
Sounds like a blown "Head gasket" to me... The 1.7 seldom does this, but it can happen.
You can easily find it with a LEAKDOWN TEST, not a compression test. The leakdown test wil clearly illustrate where the air is leaking from and it really helps with narrowing the possible causes of the issue a lot.
Valve adjustments are not cure alls.... A blown head gasket would never be effected by a valve adjustment.
You'll soon see why we remove the head gaskets.
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 05:38 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 10 2006, 04:30 PM) |
| Sounds like a blown "Head gasket" to me... The 1.7 seldom does this, but it can happen. You can easily find it with a LEAKDOWN TEST, not a compression test. The leakdown test wil clearly illustrate where the air is leaking from and it really helps with narrowing the possible causes of the issue a lot. Valve adjustments are not cure alls.... A blown head gasket would never be effected by a valve adjustment. You'll soon see why we remove the head gaskets. |
I think I understand Jake, but is not a valve adjustment confirmation the place to start with a possible cylinder leak?
John
Posted by: KaptKaos Jan 10 2006, 05:44 PM
I had something similar a few months ago. The exhaust just needed to be tightened down just a bit. See if you can feel where its coming from.
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 05:46 PM
| QUOTE (KaptKaos @ Jan 10 2006, 04:44 PM) |
| I had something similar a few months ago. The exhaust just needed to be tightened down just a bit. See if you can feel where its coming from. |
from your typed message to God's ear!
John
Posted by: SLITS Jan 10 2006, 06:07 PM
Mit der maschine gerunning....stuck a hose in your ear and pass it around the maschine von der bottom (not uber; der under)...wenn sie das sound heredit, you vill haf an idea von where it kommen frum.
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 06:14 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 10 2006, 05:07 PM) |
| Mit der maschine gerunning....stuck a hose in your ear and pass it around the maschine von der bottom (not uber; der under)...wenn sie das sound heredit, you vill haf an idea von where it kommen frum. |
danka, Heir Shlitz
J
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 06:25 PM
How does one perform a leakdown test?
John
P.S. I did the search thing, too many hits, none with the right info..........
Posted by: Dave_Darling Jan 10 2006, 07:00 PM
Damn, I wanna use an ersatz-German accent like Herr Schlitz, but it's just too much work!
Anyway--
Step 1 : Get yourself a leak-down tester. If you don't have one, you may be able to sort-of fake one up.
Step 2 : Screw the leak-down tester into the spark plug hole. (You will, of course, need to remove the plug first!)
Step 3 : Set up that cylinder to TDC and lock the flywheel so it doesn't move.
Step 4 : Hook up compressed air to the other end of the tester.
Step 5 : Turn on the air. The two gauges on the tester should tell you what pressure is going in and what is staying there. (Or are they flow gauges, I forget?)
Step 6 : Listen for air leaking out. If you hear air at the tailpipe, the exhaust valve isn't sealing well. If you hear it at the intake snorkel, the intake valve isn't sealing. If you hear it at the oil filler, the rings aren't sealing. If you hear it around the cylinder itself, you know the problem is there...
Repeat 2-6 for each of the other cylinders.
If the readings aren't that important to you, you may be able to use an old spark plug to fake up a way to get compressed air into the cyilnder.
--DD
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 07:09 PM
| QUOTE (Dave_Darling @ Jan 10 2006, 06:00 PM) |
| Damn, I wanna use an ersatz-German accent like Herr Schlitz, but it's just too much work! Anyway-- Step 1 : Get yourself a leak-down tester. If you don't have one, you may be able to sort-of fake one up. Step 2 : Screw the leak-down tester into the spark plug hole. (You will, of course, need to remove the plug first!) Step 3 : Set up that cylinder to TDC and lock the flywheel so it doesn't move. Step 4 : Hook up compressed air to the other end of the tester. Step 5 : Turn on the air. The two gauges on the tester should tell you what pressure is going in and what is staying there. (Or are they flow gauges, I forget?) Step 6 : Listen for air leaking out. If you hear air at the tailpipe, the exhaust valve isn't sealing well. If you hear it at the intake snorkel, the intake valve isn't sealing. If you hear it at the oil filler, the rings aren't sealing. If you hear it around the cylinder itself, you know the problem is there... Repeat 2-6 for each of the other cylinders. If the readings aren't that important to you, you may be able to use an old spark plug to fake up a way to get compressed air into the cyilnder. --DD |
Thanks Dave, the car is being driven into the garage right now.
John
Posted by: SLITS Jan 10 2006, 07:20 PM
Und furder, iffin sie gepressurizes das zylinder mit compresses luft, folgen Damp Daves insrucktions, ohne guage, sie can schtill hearin verfromen das leak ist occurin.
Anyway...setting the cylinder at tdc and pressurizing the cylinder to 125 psig...you can listen at the exhaust pipe, intake TB and the oil filler...if you hear hissing, in their respective order...exhaust valve, intake valve and rings. Or mit der hose, you can hear it if it is leaking from the head/cylinder sealing surface...not perfect, but.....
If you need an engine...give me a call John.
http://buy1.snapon.com/products/diagnostics/eepv309a.asp?partno=eepv309a&dir=catalog Just $300
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 07:27 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Jan 10 2006, 06:20 PM) |
If you need an engine...give me a call John. |
Geez, I hope not, this one has less than six or seven thousand on a new top end after I ruined the last one with a roll of paper towels......
John
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 09:39 PM
RESULTS:
The valves were adjusted just fine....
Compression test results
#1=90
#2=115
#3=140
#4=10
What is the next step fellas?
Is there really any point in doing a leakdown test before dropping this motor, yet AGAIN?
If the answer is no, then is a visual inspection of the "head gasket area" next?
Is there any reason in checking head torque values?
John
P.S. We do not own a leakdown test tool ............ , yet..............
Posted by: bd1308 Jan 10 2006, 09:44 PM
Im in the exact same boat.
but i dont own a compression tester....
head bolts might loosen
those little gasket things might have broken or leaked
i dunno.
b
Posted by: r_towle Jan 10 2006, 09:57 PM
go old school.
Take the hose off your compression tester and rig it up to your air compressor hose...
Fill the cylinder to 125 PSI and listen with short piece of garden hose connected to your ear...
This is a poor mans leak down tester...
This was stated above, Im just saying it without the sarcasm...
BEFORE you take the engine apart...find the leak.
It could be alot of things...
head gasket
valve seat
bent valve
blown ring
hole in piston
You name it...
follow the leak...
If you dont hear it all around the head to cylinder joints....listen inside the intake and exhaust ports..
If its not there...listen insde the oil filler neck...
Do you see the pattern..follow the air...its getting out somewhere and you need to find it...
Rich
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 10 2006, 10:05 PM
| QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 10 2006, 08:57 PM) |
| go old school. Take the hose off your compression tester and rig it up to your air compressor hose... Fill the cylinder to 125 PSI and listen with short piece of garden hose connected to your ear... This is a poor mans leak down tester... This was stated above, Im just saying it without the sarcasm... BEFORE you take the engine apart...find the leak. It could be alot of things... head gasket valve seat bent valve blown ring hole in piston You name it... follow the leak... If you dont hear it all around the head to cylinder joints....listen inside the intake and exhaust ports.. If its not there...listen insde the oil filler neck... Do you see the pattern..follow the air...its getting out somewhere and you need to find it... Rich |
Each cylinder beginning with the worst, I guess.
A project for another day, I 'spose, persons here still have homework to complete tonight.......
THX,
John
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 10 2006, 10:25 PM
Tear it down..
With only 10 PSI the issue will slap you dead in the face really quickly.
Judging by those numbers I'd have to say that engine was ran out of tune, more than likely it was lean or had an intake leak.
It takes a lot to blow a head gasket on a 1.7- they seal better than any other engine.....
If you need help- you have my number.
Posted by: Travis Neff Jan 10 2006, 10:35 PM
Sounds like you have a big hole somewhere. Dropped valve guide or busted rings.
Posted by: DJsRepS Jan 12 2006, 07:04 AM
I just did a valve job on an OEM motor first time out and found no kind of seal on the cylinder to the head. I expected to see a ring crush seal of some kind. My seal kit had no such rings for the head. I was told to clean and lap the cylinder to the head.
Posted by: Flat VW Jan 12 2006, 02:33 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 10 2006, 09:25 PM) |
| Tear it down.. With only 10 PSI the issue will slap you dead in the face really quickly. Judging by those numbers I'd have to say that engine was ran out of tune, more than likely it was lean or had an intake leak. It takes a lot to blow a head gasket on a 1.7- they seal better than any other engine..... If you need help- you have my number. |
Thanks,
John
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 5 2006, 03:17 PM
UPDATE- Shaggy has purchased, a 2.0 (we think), from a club member here---Jasons---
This is a re-built engine from one of the FAMOUS TWIN PINK CARS! (lipstick pink!).
Jason dropped the engine and Jim and his pal Matt just picked it up.
They are on their way to H. Fright to pick up a free standing engine stand.
The engine currently has a single carb set-up but the plan is to get back to fuel injection. 
Leakdown numbers to follow....
Comments, Questions, Suggestions? 
John
P.S.Pictures to follow...
Posted by: bd1308 Feb 5 2006, 03:24 PM
ahem....what are you planning to do with the single carb?
b
Posted by: r_towle Feb 5 2006, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (bd1308 @ Feb 5 2006, 04:24 PM) |
| ahem....what are you planning to do with the single carb? b |
No, Im sorry.
I have to step in as a fellow board member and perform an intervention on behalf of the 914club.
Britt, you cannot have another single carb setup. You cant. Step away from the keyboard.
Your FI is now running, your dizzy is fine...no single carbs for you...no, you cant make a cool dual carb system...
You must now throw out your old single carb and all your old dizzies.
Take a deep breath...take each scavenging urge one at a time, you will get through it...
Rich
Posted by: bd1308 Feb 5 2006, 04:41 PM
| QUOTE (r_towle @ Feb 5 2006, 04:32 PM) | ||
No, Im sorry. I have to step in as a fellow board member and perform an intervention on behalf of the 914club. Britt, you cannot have another single carb setup. You cant. Step away from the keyboard. Your FI is now running, your dizzy is fine...no single carbs for you...no, you cant make a cool dual carb system... You must now throw out your old single carb and all your old dizzies. Take a deep breath...take each scavenging urge one at a time, you will get through it... Rich |
there's a certain VW guy that seems to have a liking for them
also, I plan to (someday) build a type-1 powered lawnmower.....
b
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 5 2006, 04:41 PM
How does one break loose the five bolts on the pressure plate on a "free spinning engine"?
The boy wonder has already broke one of the impeller blades trying to hold the crank still with a giant screwdriver as a pry bar while said bolts are loosened.....
John
Posted by: bd1308 Feb 5 2006, 04:48 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Feb 5 2006, 04:41 PM) |
| How does one break loose the five bolts on the pressure plate on a "free spinning engine"? The boy wonder has already broke one of the impeller blades trying to hold the crank still with a giant screwdriver as a pry bar while said bolts are loosened..... John |
Boy wonder lol
b
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 5 2006, 04:59 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Feb 5 2006, 03:41 PM) |
| How does one break loose the five bolts on the pressure plate on a "free spinning engine"? The boy wonder has already broke one of the impeller blades trying to hold the crank still with a giant screwdriver as a pry bar while said bolts are loosened..... John |
gee, who'da thunk that would happen.
get a new fan, and a FLYWHEEL LOCK from your favorite vw parts store. 3 dollars and no broken fan blades
this is what you need. when in doubt, read the manual
Posted by: jasons Feb 5 2006, 05:26 PM
John, I think when I had to do this before, I put one of the bellhousing bolts in the case and used a crowbar or old screwdriver to lock the flywheel leveraged against the bolt. Kinda the wrong way to do it, but it works. Do you have an air compressor? An impact will break those too.
Let me know if I can help. Also before you get the flywheel off, you should turn that motor through and see what the stroke is. Stick a straw or tie-wrap in the spark plug hole. We probably should have done this before Jim left with the motor.
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 5 2006, 05:38 PM
| QUOTE (jasons @ Feb 5 2006, 04:26 PM) |
| John, I think when I had to do this before, I put one of the bellhousing bolts in the case and used a crowbar or old screwdriver to lock the flywheel leveraged against the bolt. Kinda the wrong way to do it, but it works. Stick a straw or tie-wrap in the spark plug hole. We probably should have done this before Jim left with the motor. |
Thanks Jason, he loosened the flywheel bolts as you described.
All we can find around here for the spark plug holes are chopsticks will they work?
John
P.S. Thanks Mr. 'I told you so', three bucks eh?
P.P.S. Uncle Ron? Got a dipstick tube for a 2.0, (all the same?)?
We have a dipstick.
P.P.P.S. Got a spare impeller around too?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 5 2006, 05:40 PM
dipstick tube? where did it break off? they are pressed into the case...........
do it right and you wont break any parts. having the right tools, and the right attitude is key here
AA
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 5 2006, 05:48 PM
Not broken off, bent, not Shaggy this time though.
Dude, if we knew what we needed, before we needed it, we would have it.
It is in the course of, during, and after doing, that we discover what it was we could have used.
John
P.S. There is no shortage of attitude here though... right attitude, I could not say... 
Posted by: jasons Feb 5 2006, 06:26 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 5 2006, 03:40 PM) |
| dipstick tube? where did it break off? they are pressed into the case........... do it right and you wont break any parts. having the right tools, and the right attitude is key here AA |
We bent it pulling the motor out of the car. It caught something coming out from under the car.
John, is it ruined? I bet you could shorten it. Just shorthen the dipstick accordingly. Again another so-so solution.
Posted by: bd1308 Feb 5 2006, 06:30 PM
heat the tube up with MAPP gas....bend and let cool.
that'll make it strong again.
b
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 5 2006, 06:59 PM
| QUOTE (bd1308 @ Feb 5 2006, 05:30 PM) |
| heat the tube up with MAPP gas....bend and let cool. that'll make it strong again. b |
MAPP gas?
I thought I might pour sand in the dipstick tube before bending it back, like in the film 'The Flight of the Phoenix'.
http://stripe.colorado.edu/~steinerd/Phoenix.html
John
P.S. This is the real one, not the "new" one.
Posted by: bd1308 Feb 5 2006, 07:14 PM
MAPP gas is made by combining liquefied petroleum gas with Methylacetylene-Propadiene
http://www.corpbrothers.com/productcgc/mapp.htm
MAPP gets things REAL hot, which is where you want metal to be to anneal it so it doesnt develop stress cracks and break off.
b
Posted by: SLITS Feb 5 2006, 10:58 PM
Hey John.....I should have fans and a dipstick tube if ya can't straighten it. They are all the same...
Lemmmeknow!
PS...why do you need a dipstick tube...Shaggy's car doesn't run long enuff to need to check the oil.. 
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 6 2006, 10:08 AM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Feb 5 2006, 09:58 PM) |
| PS...why do you need a dipstick tube...Shaggy's car doesn't run long enuff to need to check the oil.. |
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