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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Dino vs.914
Posted by: geniusanthony Jan 16 2006, 09:14 PM
Ok, so i am officially placing my first post 
and here are my thoughts...Our beloved teeners are in an engineering sense an identical car to the Ferrari Dino. I mean this in the sense that the were both budget minded sports cars of similar size and performance...I am refering to the -6 models for closest similarity. same layout and intended consumer.
That being said I challenge you all to think this over and lend us all your thoughts on this manner and now the $100,000 question, do you suppose that if we painted our cars red, wore funny hats and red members only jackets would our cars be equally desireable????
Posted by: smooth_eddy Jan 16 2006, 09:20 PM
My Dad wears a members only jacket. I call him the last member. Welcome to the club. What part of Seattle do you live in? Eddy
Posted by: Crazyhippy Jan 16 2006, 09:22 PM
You guys dont wear funny hats and members only jackets?? 
Damn
LOL
BJH
Posted by: GeorgeRud Jan 16 2006, 09:24 PM
As much as I have loved the 914-6 over the last 30 years of ownership, the Ferrari Dino is agueably one of the most beautifully designed cars of all time. The prototype 916s were developed to compete with it, but even then the Porsche Board decided to axe the idea as they felt it wouldn't compete effectively.
So, we continue wearing our Lederhosen, drinking our Lowenbraus, and enjoying life. Don't sweat the Ferrari crowd, there's always someone richer and thinner in life!
Posted by: grasshopper Jan 16 2006, 09:25 PM
| QUOTE (smooth_eddy @ Jan 16 2006, 07:20 PM) |
| Welcome to the club. |
its not a club!!
and welcome anthony! 
Posted by: Andyrew Jan 16 2006, 09:36 PM
to the dino owners...
"BRING IT OOOOOOONN!!!!"
i'd love to play cat and mouse with em on the track... if I had enough balls they would never see me 
-
Welcome!
Posted by: geniusanthony Jan 16 2006, 09:40 PM
so looks aside and jumping away from hat/jacket comments, in strictly mechanical terms they seem to be very close cousins both in age and performance/racing pedigree why is the 914 not as desired? VW heritage, as that is not the case with the -6 model as it was strictly a P-car in europe as opposed to VW-Porsche..
Sweating the Ferrari crowd, Never just saw one flash across the screen on SPEED and got to thinkiing
Posted by: olav Jan 16 2006, 09:48 PM
Back before the 90s Ferrari boom or 80s boom when the Dino was looked down on for being a six cylinder Ferrari you could get those cars real cheap. Something like under 10K.
That's what owners say when I talk to them at the Concorso Italiano. Now of course they are more desireable.
Posted by: URY914 Jan 16 2006, 09:55 PM
The Dino is a Fiat as a 914 is a VW.
Posted by: Seagrave Jan 16 2006, 09:55 PM
The Dino was the "Dino" and not a real Ferrari just like the 914 was not a real Porsche. My, my, how times have changed. Both cars are now considered a member of the family instead of the bastard child. There is no comparison in my mind though. Tweaked teeners may kick Dino ass but (as we all know) there are a lot of little rice burners out there that can do the same to Ferraris and Porsches too. As to the comparison of the Dino and the 914, if you have a Dino, I'd consider a trade with you! 
Posted by: MattR Jan 16 2006, 09:57 PM
My boss at work is restoring a really nice dino right now. The engine is sitting on a bench in the back and it has a big FIAT written on the cam towers.
Posted by: geniusanthony Jan 16 2006, 10:03 PM
Sorry to let you down fellas but I do not have a dino, some good info is coming out of the consortium here though. I just picked out my teener last week and my wife is gonna pick it up here shortly, I already checked it out and am looking forward to coming back from Iraq (In the Army,based out of ft. lewis) in like 6-12 months but here is the one i examined and approved.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: redshift Jan 16 2006, 10:04 PM
Loving 914s is fine, but no reason to be silly about it.. 
There were only around 4000 Dinos made, and they cost twice as much as a (VW) Porsche.
At the time when they were being made, Porsches weren't considered to be anything more than expensive VWs.
There were almost 123,000 914s made..
Get reaaaal...
If you drive a 246, you definately understand the difference in... uhh.. handling.
Imagine if Mercedes had made 914s in 1990.
M
Posted by: geniusanthony Jan 16 2006, 10:05 PM
btw, definately gonna be a project, but a solid starting point,,was originally orange from 71
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 16 2006, 10:41 PM
The premise you started with: the 914 and Dino are identical from an engineering perspective, is pretty far off the mark, too.
By that argument, you could class the FIAT X1/9, the Toyota MR2, and the Pontiac Fiero all in the same boat. Value is hardly set by "engineering perspective", and these cars all only share a mid-engined layout, and little else.
The Dino suspension shares little to nothing with the 914 layout. The 914 engine is longitudinal, where the Dino (and the others mentioned) are all transverse. Only the 914 is air-cooled. Only the 914 uses a flat-engine layout. Very different cars, hardly "close cousins".
As for value and desirability, Porsches have always been cheaper than Ferraris (and the Dino is a Ferrari to all but the worst snobs). Just look at the new and current prices for a 308 (Ferrari's cheapest model for years) and the 911s from the same year (NOT Porsche's entry model), and the 308 will generally be more expensive. Porsche's entry models from the 308 era are generally dirt cheap even in excellent condition. 924s are usually under $3K, and 944s under $5K. A 308 is 5-6 times that. Even the generally disliked 308 GT4 is worth a lot more than a clean 944, and approaches the price of a good 911SC.
None of this has to make any sense, btw. I've pointed out on this forum before that nice examples of once VERY desirable cars are often dirt cheap today. In the mid-80s every F1 driver owned a Mercedes 500SEC, and it was considered THE car to have by the Eurotrash set. Now, you can pick one up for under $5K, or less than the price of a really nice 914/4 (let alone a /6).
Posted by: geniusanthony Jan 16 2006, 10:51 PM
Yes i said from an engineering persp., but in terms of antiquity and pedigree i still see the two as similar. remember too i stated that i was refering to the -6 models. I did not take into account that the production numbers were that low.
The original point i wanted to make was that it is merely interesting that the two makes were held in such different pedestals. on that note looking at only -6's and it may be appropriate to look at the -6 gt's here for a comparable benchmark
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Jan 16 2006, 11:47 PM
The 246 Dino also took its engine (afaik) from the Fiat Dino, something else the purists despised. It did have a good high strung , chain driven ohc sound to it though. There was a top eschelon 246 know as the "Chairs and Flares" model, which apparently got upgraded recaros and fatter fenders/ tires in the deal.
I only recall old car mags comparing the still born 916 to the 246>> our humble 914s in a different league however.
Marty
Posted by: tod914 Jan 17 2006, 12:19 AM
There is a comonality between the two cars... the rear calipers
Posted by: dan10101 Jan 17 2006, 01:11 AM
Neat car, But it has to go thru life as a NARF...
NARF NARF! Has a nice ring to it.
http://members.tripod.com/~ferrari308gt4/gt4.html
3 liter 240 HP. Sounds like fun. Seats 4, (well 2 and 2 halfs.)
Posted by: dmenche914 Jan 17 2006, 01:26 AM
rode in a Dino at christmas, It was really nice, very fast, great looking. it is in a different class than the 914.
Posted by: Racer Chris Jan 17 2006, 04:53 AM
I rode in a 246 at Lime Rock about 20 years ago. There was little room for a passenger. I remember having to hold my feet away from the driver's feet because the foot well is so narrow. I love the looks, but I would rather have a 914 with the same curves.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: JmuRiz Jan 17 2006, 08:53 AM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 16 2006, 07:55 PM) |
| The Dino is a Fiat as a 914 is a VW. |
And some Dinos ARE Fiats:
That being said, I would LOVE to have a Fiat Dino!
Posted by: dinomium Jan 17 2006, 11:47 AM
Since my name IS Dino, I have to weigh in on this one... The Italian car manufacturing and racing rules has made for strange bed fellows! here are some random Dino and Ferrari tidbits...
Enzo raced and worked for Alfa Romeo in Milan, it wasn’t until after the second world war that he ran his own car. his son, Dino designed a great v6 1.56 liter for formula two racing. All of the v6 and some v8 ENGINES were to be known as Dinos. Dino Ferrari died of leukemia in 1956. His father never fully recovered and wore a black neck tie everyday for the rest of his life...
FIAT used the v6 in their coupes and roadsters to help Enzo homologate the engine for FIA sports car racing. FIAT used Pininfarina for the roadster and Bertone for the coupe, so you have two cars with the same name and same build year that have completely different body styles!
Enzo never cared for the road going portion of his company aside from the money it gave him to continue racing. He nearly sold to Ford and did ultimately sell majority share to FIAT.
Too say that any of the DINO badged cars are not "true" Ferraris is just wrong. These cars were more of the design houses (Pininfarina, Bertone) and the early cars had Gioacchino Colombo engines and the bodys were built by coachbuilders like Stablimenti Farina, Vignale and Ghia.
So the upshot is this: Real Ferraris? Really Porsches? Shut up! You only show you know very little about the history and the way the world of motosports actually works! It is very complex and often a collaborative effort…
As for 914s and 308 gt4 Dinos being similar? Well they both have four tires, run on gasoline, and mid-engines. That is where it ends!
Wow, that turned into a rant! HA
Posted by: Root_Werks Jan 17 2006, 11:53 AM
I remember seeing that car for sale locally. I never got a chance to go look at it, but I think you got a decent deal on it. Welcome to the Not a club 914 club!
Posted by: dinomium Jan 17 2006, 12:28 PM
Oops, I missed that part, Welcome to the fray...
Posted by: kart54 Jan 17 2006, 12:38 PM
OK, Can't resist, Thread semi-hijack.
From the same years came a handbuilt car made in very small numbers that will kick both the dino's butt and the 914's. I have always been amazed that the value of that car is roughly the same or less than a 914. The car has a 1.8 L four with dual overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder and 145 horsepower in stock version. With very little work it will deveolp over 200 hundred horsepower and there are a couple of examples of it out there with 300+ horsepower. this motor came from one of the most famous race winning companies out there and was a collaboration with them. The mtor is still available today but is slightly larger displacement; has a gridle on the lower end to handle the additional horsepower and now has twin turbos on it.
The transmission in the later models is a 5 speed shared with the 2002 BMWTii. Car was built from 1972 to 1975.
It is a convertible designed in Italy but for the most part built in England. The parts for it are more readily available than the 914 (I own both cars). It won SCCA championships in 1974,1975 and 1995 with Bruce Qvale of Trans-Am fame driving it. Qvale's father, Kjell Qvale, was the North Americam importer.
Huffaker has prepared some beautiful examples of it for racing and to my knowledge no Huffaker car of this type ever lost a race or a championship (Bragging, could be wrong about that, just a little puffing).
There are presently about 1300 known, documented examples of this car around the world. When I drive mine, because of the design and the "J" badge on the car I continually get asked "what model Jaguar is that".
In good condition they sell for $3-$5,000.00. In concours condition they can be found for under $10,000.00 if you look hard enough. (Just like our Porsches, at that point, the owner usually has $30,000.00 plus into it.)
One more commonality with the Porsche, it usually leaves its signature oil imprint wherever it is parked for any period of time no matter how hard the owner tries to stop the leaks.
Anybody know what car I'm talking about? I was going to say what it was but think it will be more fun to see who guesses it.
Randy,
Ventura, CA
Posted by: Mueller Jan 17 2006, 12:55 PM
914/6= ~3000+ built
Dino= ~1557 built
add in the fact that 100,000 914/4 had been built and sold, it's pretty darn obvious to me why the Dino would have more of a collectors interest......
if no /4s had been built and the /6 numbers had stayed in the 3000 range, good chance the value would be higher for the 914/6 than they are now
Posted by: Hybrid_Teener Jan 17 2006, 01:15 PM
it's a Jensen, not quite sure which you're talking about though.
Posted by: tod914 Jan 17 2006, 01:15 PM
Hmmm I'm thinking Jensen Healy. Do I win a cigar?
Posted by: Hybrid_Teener Jan 17 2006, 01:18 PM
I wanna say interceptor III
Posted by: kart54 Jan 17 2006, 01:30 PM
Boy, You guys are good.
Jensen Healey.
Originally built with the 1.8 L Lotus 4 cylinder with BMW trans.
Arguably, due to scarcity and performance should be the most valuable of the bunch.
Mine, with just a different set of cams, crane electronic ignition and properly jetted dellorto carbs is over 165 horsepower to the rear wheels. Weight is about the same as my lightened 914 race car (1800+lbs.). So double the 914 horsepower and same weight.
Randy
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 17 2006, 01:31 PM
| QUOTE (Hybrid_Teener @ Jan 17 2006, 11:18 AM) |
| I wanna say interceptor III |
Not with a 1.8 four. The Interceptor used a gigantic Chrysler V8. 7 liters or thereabouts. Jensen-Healey is a four, with some massaging by Lotus.
Posted by: Hybrid_Teener Jan 17 2006, 01:36 PM
Oh yea. Interceptors were pretty bad-ass though.
but, for some reason, I thought they made more than 1300 Healeys..
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 17 2006, 01:56 PM
| QUOTE (kart54 @ Jan 17 2006, 11:30 AM) |
| Boy, You guys are good. Jensen Healey. Originally built with the 1.8 L Lotus 4 cylinder with BMW trans. Arguably, due to scarcity and performance should be the most valuable of the bunch. Mine, with just a different set of cams, crane electronic ignition and properly jetted dellorto carbs is over 165 horsepower to the rear wheels. Weight is about the same as my lightened 914 race car (1800+lbs.). So double the 914 horsepower and same weight. Randy |
Alas, scarcity has never been much of an influence on price unless the production numbers are in the single digits, and someone really wants the car. My father has a SAAB Sonnet II (not the much more familier III), of which only 1500 were ever made worldwide. The car is worth perhaps $5K in decent shape, depending entirely on the buyer. 80hp 1500cc V4, about 1500lbs, so better than 914/6 power/weight. I've owned two Alfas (2000 Berlina and Alfetta GT), each of which was imported in numbers of under 2000 each, and they're nearly worthless, easily $500-1000 in typical condition, up to maybe $3000 in exceptional condition. The FIAT 124 Coupe I just bought is absurdly rare these days, much more so than the 914/4 (indeed, well into 914/6 territory), and will outperform a 1.7 914/6 (2110lbs, 90hp). Yet, in like condition, it costs somewhat LESS than a 914/4.
This also goes the other way. I can't find exact production numbers for the Mustang Boss 302 (though it appears to be WAY over the 3000 914/6s made), and these were not expensive cars when new (a 1970 Boss 302 was certainly cheaper than a 1970 914/6, anyway), yet they currently sell for 2-3 times what a 914/6 does. More people with money WANT a Boss 302 than want a 914/6, so the price is higher.
Posted by: tod914 Jan 17 2006, 01:56 PM
| QUOTE |
| ...There are presently about 1300 known |
Posted by: msglaigaie Jan 17 2006, 03:30 PM
geniusanthony nice to see another BLACK 914. Have you been advised that the color alone will afford you a 7% increase in bhp ?? My son just went feet dry kuwait for his second visit. We will be on your side while you are away. MSG L
Posted by: twistedstang Jan 17 2006, 04:08 PM
Dino . Thats all I had to say
Posted by: SandyI Jan 17 2006, 04:35 PM
Having just purchased my first 914 with a Euro 3.2 in it, I could kick any Dino's arse.
That being said, my father owned a '73 Dino, in red, with chairs and flares, Campy wheels, the whole ballawax. If you think there's some great similarity between the two cars, I'm sorry but you really haven't spent any time driving a Dino.
First off, the 914 is classic German -- form follows function. No frills.
The Dino is classic Italian -- S-E-X.
Sure, a well-tuned 914 will hammer a Dino on the track. But that was never the purpose of the Dino. The Dino's all about long Sunday drives down PCH with the top off.
And in So Cal, when you turn every female head? You know you're driving something special. And sorry to say that will never happen in my 914.
Posted by: lapuwali Jan 17 2006, 04:43 PM
| QUOTE (SandyI @ Jan 17 2006, 02:35 PM) |
| never the purpose of the Dino. The Dino's all about long Sunday drives down PCH with the top off. |
Unless you're driving a REAL Dino: the GTB...
Posted by: redshift Jan 17 2006, 05:38 PM
Hey Anthony, in case you haven't heard it lately! :
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!
Miles
Posted by: dflesburg Jan 17 2006, 08:31 PM
Having never driven a dino all I can say is I don't know....
As far as this being a club? Who cares! its the best damn 914 web site ever. I just wish somebody had all the pics from the old 914-6 GT web site for reference...
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