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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ will rear 914 6 hubs work w/ 914 4 axle shafts?
Posted by: pnewman Feb 9 2006, 03:44 PM
Sorry for the newbie question. I am looking at putting a pair of 914 6 rear swing arms on my 914 4 lugger to do the 5 lug conversion thing and was concerned about the 4 bolt axle shafts fitting through the hubs.
I am sure this is a no brainer for you guys.
thanks, Pete
Posted by: Mueller Feb 9 2006, 04:15 PM
nope....different spline count, one has 27 and the other 28(???)
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 9 2006, 04:28 PM
agree with der mueller meister.....
id be interested in your rear hubs, should you sell them...
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 9 2006, 04:30 PM
aehem .... (cough, cough) ...
if he got the 914-6 stub axles, those will fit the 914-4 CVs, so, yes, he can keep the /4 axles and CVs and use the 914-6 trailing arms and hubs ...
Andy
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 9 2006, 04:32 PM
he didnt mention his stub axle choice..
assuming he meant /4
ahndy - whats the diff tween a /4 and /6 cv....???
Posted by: drgchapman Feb 9 2006, 04:33 PM
I think Andy answered the question asked 
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 9 2006, 04:43 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 9 2006, 02:32 PM) |
| ahndy - whats the diff tween a /4 and /6 cv....??? |
the spline for the axle shaft ...
Andy
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 9 2006, 04:45 PM
cv's have same bolt pattern... but the internal splines are differnt....
sees pretty sillty to make 2 sets of identical functioning parts....
thanks ahhhndy
AA
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 9 2006, 04:50 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 9 2006, 02:45 PM) |
| cv's have same bolt pattern... but the internal splines are differnt.... sees pretty sillty to make 2 sets of identical functioning parts.... |
good question ....
btw. EASY has a set of 914-6 axles with CVs. and yes, the spline is different for sure (i tried) ...
Andy
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 9 2006, 06:38 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm are you guys sure?? (oh, that's right, he said he's sure)
I was 'always' under the impression that -6 and -4 CV's and axles are the same. The stub axle for sure is different but the CV's and Axles???
Next, there's no such thing as 914-6 swing arms.
So Pete, if you're getting 'loaded' 914 control arms off a -6 you'll simply need the stub axles. They'll bolt up to a 914 CV (I know that for sure).
Talk amongst yourselves...
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 9 2006, 06:42 PM
| QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Feb 9 2006, 04:38 PM) |
| Hmmmmmmmmmmmm are you guys sure?? (oh, that's right, he said he's sure) |
well, as i said, EASY has a set that i was looking at a while ago when i was looking for stuff for my 944 conversion ...
we took a CV off the 914-6 axle shaft and the spline was different then any of the 914-4 shafts ...
so, there you go ...
AndyPosted by: Aaron Cox Feb 9 2006, 06:42 PM
i remember...
/6 CV joints were NLA... so you could convert to a 4 cylinder asseembly.....
then....
/4 CV's became NLA........
pretty stupid to make 2 identical funtioning parts.... but not make them interchangeable.....
like 411/914 vs 911 front suspension. a arms etc are physically the same, just different splining.......
AA
Posted by: davep Feb 9 2006, 06:47 PM
914/6 drive shafts are bigger diameter than the /4, but you need to measure carefully. CV's are not interchangeable.
So why does the left 914/6 arm have a different part #?
Posted by: Brian Mifsud Feb 9 2006, 06:55 PM
"Stupid??" Try "Heroic"....
Check out the two chapters in Ludvigsens "Excellence Was Expected" on the 914 development.
With VW playing fickle on the "handshake" agreement, as well as the creation of the VW-Audi distribution network.. I can easily imagine the redtape and bureacracy the product developers and engineers faced at Porsche when they were trying to come up with a list of parts that made economical sense. Porsche was trying to save costs by using as many 911 "bin" parts as they could, while VW was doing the same... they just had different "Bins"....
Aaron, I understand you are still a student of ME...not to dash your dreams, but once you get out of school and rack up some hours in whatever bureacracy employs you, you might begin to develop some sympathy for the grunts (since you will be one) who had to make the product happen.. no offense intended... I'm just tired out and jaded after doing this crap for 15 years... Most likely, Porsche engineers HAD to do their own parts, just to cut thru the junk foisted upon them by the VW/Porsche/Audi relationships (or lack thereof)
TIME TO MARKET is NUMBER ONE. Anything that gets in the way of that goal quickly gets reprioritized.. even if that means saving "cost" later...
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 9 2006, 07:37 PM
| QUOTE |
| So why does the left 914/6 arm have a different part #? |
Beats me
They're 'identical'.How about the right one?
Posted by: davep Feb 9 2006, 09:16 PM
The right is the same, but I think the 914/6 left had a bracket for an oil line or something.
The 914 has what amounts to a unique rear suspension, so why the /4 and /6 had such different parts is a mystery. Okay, so the /4 had to use VW wheels for some reason. Same with the front suspension as only the brakes are VW. The A-arms have different spline counts for no apparent good reason. As a bean-counter I would have used the same parts as a 911 to get a volume discount on the 911 parts.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Feb 9 2006, 09:24 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 9 2006, 02:32 PM) |
| he didnt mention his stub axle choice.. assuming he meant /4 ahndy - whats the diff tween a /4 and /6 cv....??? |
The difference? 914/6 CV joints have been NLA for 15-20 years, and 914/4 CV joints have been NLA for only a few months. Oh, and the spline count is different. The Cap'n
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Feb 9 2006, 09:29 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 9 2006, 04:42 PM) |
| i remember... /6 CV joints were NLA... so you could convert to a 4 cylinder asseembly..... then.... /4 CV's became NLA........ pretty stupid to make 2 identical funtioning parts.... but not make them interchangeable..... like 411/914 vs 911 front suspension. a arms etc are physically the same, just different splining....... AA |
411 front suspension is coil over struts, like a super beetle. The only parts that May be the same are the early rotors, and possibly the calipers. The Cap'n
Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 9 2006, 09:41 PM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Feb 9 2006, 08:29 PM) | ||
411 front suspension is coil over struts, like a super beetle. The only parts that May be the same are the early rotors, and possibly the calipers. The Cap'n |
i stand corrected.... it was my understanding that the 914 borrowed its front suspension from a 411/412...
so they made a new setup identical to a 911.... just the splines are different....
Posted by: pnewman Feb 9 2006, 11:12 PM
Wow!!!!
I went out flying tonight and thought that I would check my posting before going to bed and..........................
I had no idea what a response I would get. 
What a history lesson!!!
my understanding from our discussion...
So w/ this pair of swing arms (from a 914 / 6) I would have to use my 914 / 4 axle shafts (they are 4 bolt) and find a pair of 914 /6 axle stubs ( which I am of the understanding that it has a matching 4 bolt pattern) and will be able to connect the axle to the swing arms for a happy 5 lug conversion / marriage!
Is this correct?
if so where does one find such an item and how much are we talking about $?
thanks all
Pete
Posted by: Twystd1 Feb 10 2006, 05:53 AM
Well that not exactly correct.
The way I see it is that Aaron has a perspective of Erics knowledge that is personified by Crusty's basic understanding of the 411,914,911 CV and stub axle setup that is promulgated,and dealt with and explained in a way that Mifsud could parley and add to the Davep's minstrations ....
This is all loosely based on an old thread from Brad that explained it all. Until Slitz negated that practice by being knowledgable and conversant on what Andy had done before Toast was able to get it on her car..
Thats when Eric Shea stepped in and took the SIX verses FOUR debate to Jake who Hammed it up with the guy at L&N.....
Well you know the rest of the story I assume....
So thats how I see it.
Yes friends and relatives.
And thats how PORN was born on the net.... REALLY...
Question.. Dave Darling... Did I get the facts right this time..??
CCCmmmon.. Please.. Just once.. Did I get it right????
MattR
Pardon me.. Can you point me the way home... I'm lost........
Posted by: RON S. Feb 10 2006, 05:58 AM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Feb 9 2006, 02:30 PM) |
| aehem .... (cough, cough) ... if he got the 914-6 stub axles, those will fit the 914-4 CVs, so, yes, he can keep the /4 axles and CVs and use the 914-6 trailing arms and hubs ... Andy |
I have to agree with Andy,
When I bought my original-rust-bucket-dirt -cheap 914/6 back in '98,some Ass Clown must of blown the original 6 engine,and converted it to a 1.7l solexed 4.
Reason why I got so cheap! Anyway,the car still had the 5 lug hub,rotors,and swing arms hooked to 4cly. axles,cv's and to a 4cyl. 901 trans.
And to think I had to make it all go away to make room for a 3.6l.
Ron
Posted by: SLITS Feb 10 2006, 08:02 AM
Just redrill the fuichin' 4 lug bolt hubs to 5 bolt and install in the arms....problem solved
or
Call Mittlemotor in Germany and buy 914/6 stub axles (up to $600) and use early 911 hubs or if you already have the hubs, mount the stub axles on your /4 shafts.
It ain't rocket science.....
And make a tool to draw the hubs into the trailing arm or you're gonna eat some bearings and learn new and informative words to use.
Disclaimer......The above was written early in the morning prior to my second cup of coffee and I am not responsible for the content. I could change my mind later as the caffiene kicks in, but then again, being Slits, I might be procastinating for the effect and then again I might be telling the truth and then again.....
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 10 2006, 10:20 AM
Sorry Pete... we're confusing you with our dribble. Almost as bad as a full on hijack.
| QUOTE |
| my understanding from our discussion... So w/ this pair of swing arms (from a 914 / 6) I would have to use my 914 / 4 axle shafts (they are 4 bolt) and find a pair of 914 /6 axle stubs ( which I am of the understanding that it has a matching 4 bolt pattern) and will be able to connect the axle to the swing arms for a happy 5 lug conversion / marriage! |
This may be correct but, we need to know what you have first.
My point about the control arms being the same is more pragmatic than analytical, I've seen someone trying to pawn off -6 arms for $600 and they are identical to the -4 arms you can buy for $50. If there is a different tab to mount the oil line (which is on all early control arms I've seen and not on the laters) I could duplicate it and weld it on for a whoppin $10 bucks.
Here's Question #1: Is the 5-lug 914-6 hub still in the arm?
If so then yes, what you've mentioned above is correct. Your missing link will be the over-priced 914-6 stub axle. Mittlemotor use to be the best buy as they would stick a set of replicas on eBay every other week and usually get around $250-300 for them. I've read they stopped that practice. Shipping from them was around $50.00
If not, then I'd recommend you go the route the 'sober' Slits mentions above. One's $135.00 and the other is $600 plus, and there's no true advantage.
Question #2: When you say your axle shaft is 4 bolt; you mean your CV right? Again, I want to make sure this isn't being confused with a 4-bolt 'hub'. 914 and 914-6 CV's are 4 bolt.
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 10 2006, 10:22 AM
I don't care what the Dampster says, I think it's brilliant Clayton!
Posted by: 914Sixer Feb 10 2006, 10:36 AM
Six swing arms have an extra tab on the dirvers side for a strap to hold the handbrake cable out of the way of the stock heat exchanger. You can see this in the parts manual or microfich. However, there seemed to be an abundance of these left over when 6 production shut down and they showed up on lots of 4 cyl cars. I even found one with a tab on it from a 74 model with the later brake line connection. So as you can see this only adds to the controversy.
Posted by: SLITS Feb 10 2006, 10:37 AM
There is no controversy....the Krauts were drunk when they designed and assembled them....... 
Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 10 2006, 11:35 AM
Handbrake cable... correct! (thanks)
If I recall, it was a strip of cloth around the cable and a screw that went into that tab. Very sophisticated... and as stated, they're on a ton of 914 control arms. About 3/4" wide and 1.5" tall.
Now... if someone wants a rare 914-6 left control arm, let me know. I'll set one aside for you. Suggested list $300. 914club Special $250.
But wait! 5% off for club members for the next week!! $237.50 shipped right to your door!
* Offer not valid in certain mountanoius areas of California where only strange men and small furry creatures would venture. 914-6 hub not included. Offer only good upon availability. All I can say is "they're In-Stock" now but by the time you order they may not be. We reserve the right to ship a lame regular 914-4 left control arm and charge a minimum order fee of $50.00 for any orders under $10,000.00. If there is a problem with your order we promise the problem will be on your end. We state this upfront so you are aware of our customer service policy (or lack thereof).
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