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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Anyone have an opinion re: 914/Subaru conversions?
Posted by: carreraguy Feb 11 2006, 09:39 PM
Looking for more hp and was considering the Suby conversion route after seing one at last year's German Autofest in Ventura. IF I was to pull the trigger, I won't be doing it myself - looking at a turnkey solution. Aside from the cost, what are the pros/cons? i.e definitely NARP.
Seems to me that a 914 thta has an engine that is lighter than a stock 2liter engine but has 240-300 hp (depending on tuning, type engine etc.) would be a blast to drive assuming you had the right suspension, brakes, wheels/tires etc.
Thanks,
Posted by: d914 Feb 11 2006, 09:53 PM
if not looking at "budget build" I think this is a neat way to build a light weight high horse power streeter.. Iam also looking at the suby tranny to add to the "daily" driver target..
I'm re-doing a car from scratch, 5 lug w/ sc brakes, extra bracing , heat and air, track bushings..etc.
V-8, porsche 6, rotary are all valid, but I like the concept of modern engine and tranny in a 30 yr old car..... Also if tracking the car, once the conversion is done the long block is cheap!!! When all the window dressing is in the down side risk is a $700-1000 long block!
Light weight, flat four, decent hp and low exposure after conversion...works for me..
Posted by: lapuwali Feb 11 2006, 10:09 PM
The chief downside is that if you intend to AX or timetrial the car, you can't do it at PCA events. If you intend it to only be a street car, no problem. SCCA and NASA won't give you any guff over a NARP engine, either.
Posted by: anthony Feb 11 2006, 10:13 PM
To me the downsides are:
not aircooled
not vintage
not a Porsche engine
uber expensive if you aren't doing all the fabrication and tinkering yourself
which tranmission do you use for that 300hp?
To me the charm of a 914 is that it's a vintage aircooled car. Other than that I bet a 914-Suburu done right would no doubt be a fun car to drive.
Posted by: neo914-6 Feb 11 2006, 10:20 PM
Get a quote from Renegade Hybrids, they do turn-keys or better yet get a quote from series9 for a modern -6...
Modern drivetrain! 
If you want to keep it German, I "may" market the Audi conversion... 
Posted by: TonyAKAVW Feb 11 2006, 11:08 PM
Well, my perspective on this is definitely a little biased. There are definitely downsides to doing a Subaru conversion and I think they have been covered already.
Maybe one thing to do is decide what is important to you. Do you like the ownership of a classic car? Do you like the nostalgia? Does the engine form an important part ofthat nostalgia? I'm not saying that putting in a Subaru engine will make it a modern car, but for people that are _really_ into preservation/antique value of the car, its unheard of.
If you like the performance of a 914, and its capabilities as a lightweight fast sportscar then engine choice might be affected by that. A Subaru engine definitely has more potential than a type IV in terms of reliable output power. Granted you CAN get 300 HP out of a type IV, but why?
Now in terms of how to get to 240-300 HP, you can do it with a Type IV and spend a lot more than any other option, you can use a 6, but for that kind of power will not be cheap either. You can do a V8, but then you have a heavy engine with lots of torque to deal with. And then you are left with engines like the Subaru, rotary, Audi engines, etc. The real advantage to a Subaru engine from a technical perspective is the fact that its a flat 4 (or 6) and done properly can result in a very low center of mass.
Now in terms of cost... If you are going to get a full Renegade setup, and an aftermarket ECU, etc., you will be into it for somewhere in the neighborhood of $6000-$8000 in parts.
-Tony
Posted by: carreraguy Feb 12 2006, 01:32 AM
Thanks guys, good input! I'm going to have to decide exactly what I want; right now I'm leaning toward fun; I already have a taildragger that is mostly a CW car. So I guess I'm on the lookout for a rustfree, fairly clean, good tranny, not too expensive 1.7 or 1.8 car that I can drive to Las Vegas to visit the folks at Renegade.
Posted by: Kerrys914 Feb 12 2006, 08:41 AM
Not sure but can you get a HIGH HP Jake Engine for the same cost as a Suby conversion?
The one Suby I have seen and heard sounds like a type IV..weird 
Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 12 2006, 09:23 AM
for the cost of a turnkey, you may be able to find a 6... but I dunno... it seems someone said a decent 6 conversion was about 10k...
but all in all, I like the suby conversions...
they even kinda sound like a -4... if you don't mind pumping water, the scooby is fine... I think the suby is a better, more practical solution than a SBC... but that's just me
Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 12 2006, 10:48 AM
My final deciding factor for doing my suby swap was a few laps at a local race track in a new Lotus Elise. You might say what the heck does that have to do with a 914 Suby swap but if you do the spec comparisons you come up with around the same weight to HP ratio.
http://www.lotuscars.com/Lotus_Spec_Sheet.pdf
Lotus is 1984 lbs for a base car. (per Lotus web site)
Lotus powerplant is 190HP@7800 (toyota engine)
Lotus torque is not so impressive at 138@6800
914 about 2150 lbs
Suby 2.5L N/A is 165Hp (bone stock w/ A/C, PS, and restrictive exhaust)
Suby torque is 165 flat curve
After seeing what that Lotus felt like, I decided if I could get anywhere close to that feeling I'd be happy. Throw in your turbo setup to bump up that HP range and you really have a screamer in nostalgic 914 clothing.....
Posted by: anthony Feb 12 2006, 10:56 AM
Speaking of Lotus, Tom have you considered an Elise? I'm pretty sure an Elise will easily outperform a 914 - even a modified 914. Used ones are dipping into the low thirties. The other nice thing is that a used one still probably has its warranty and the engine is Toyota reliable.
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 12 2006, 12:41 PM
I am obviously a little baised but what the heck. I thought about this and followed Scotts install for a long time before I made up my mind. I decided to install the 2.5NA Suby and the suby transmission. The only negitives that I see so far is the car is no longer a stock original 914 (mine was a nice almost rust free original car with a 5 lug conversion.) The way I am developing the swap the car will be able to be returned to stock and no one will ever know.
As far as the pros - lots more power, modern car maintainence, modern electronics vs 30 year old, transmission that doesn't suck and make me cranky everytime I drive the car, easy to find repair parts.
Cost - so far I have.
$1400 for complete 2005 engine with a claimed 2000 miles
$600 for 2005 trans
$200 for Saker AWD to FWD trans parts
$1000 for stand alone EFI system that I had from a previous project.
~$400 for adaptor flanges to mate the Suby trans to Porsche axles.
~$400 for custom radiator.
$108 for 4 911 sport mounts to hold everything.
~$500 for the engine, transmission, radiatior cradle (I'm making this so my cost is a lot lower)
~$250 for shift linkage parts - more for cable shift.
~$400-500 for exhaust
~$? VW bus axles
$300 for hardware, wire, hoses etc.
More $ to install a heater core, fan etc.
So what do you get for your $5500 or so? An engine that should make 180 HP and a mountain of nice flat torque hooked up to a new easy shifting transmission. Just add $ the sky is the limit to how much power you can get, looks like an honest 300HP is easily done with the 2.5 with mostly stock parts.
And if you really want you can put that hot 1.7 back in and be original.
Posted by: Mueller Feb 12 2006, 01:06 PM
Hey Tom,
I cannot think of too many negative things about the conversion except for perhaps the PCA issue:
auto-x: "fun run" class only, no points or "official" time
time trails: not allowed
not that big of deal to some folks, there are plenty of run groups that allow pretty much anything for track events (not racing, just having fun), same for auto-x, SCCA does not care, you'll just be in a goofy class but if all you want to do is wring out the car once in a while, who cares what class you are in, as long as you can arrive and flog the car and have fun.
As a daily driver or weekend cruiser, I think the Suby (or any well done conversion) is a great idea...the key factors (at least for me) being that it must have at least 75% more HP and be dead-on reliable with no overheating issues, or half@ss wiring or whatever that might distract from enjoying the car.
I didn't get into a 914 (or my 911 for that matter) because of them being aircooled, it just happened to be the engine that came with them 
Do I like aircooled engines? Yes, but I like almost all engines, steam, stirling, diesel, you name it 
When you are flying down a country lane, feeling the G's, does it really matter what is propelling you forward and out of each corner? As long as you can get from point A to point B, that is the important thing, if one method of thrust get's you there a little quicker or with more piece of mind, what is wrong with that??
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 12 2006, 01:23 PM
| QUOTE (mrdezyne @ Feb 12 2006, 08:48 AM) |
| My final deciding factor for doing my suby swap was a few laps at a local race track in a new Lotus Elise. You might say what the heck does that have to do with a 914 Suby swap but if you do the spec comparisons you come up with around the same weight to HP ratio. Lotus is around 2100 lbs Lotus powerplant is 195HP (toyota engine) Lotus torque is not so impressive at 134 914 about the same weight Suby 2.5L N/A is 165Hp Suby torque is 165 flat curve After seeing what that Lotus felt like, I decided if I could get anywhere close to that feeling I'd be happy. Throw in your turbo setup to bump up that HP range and you really have a screamer in nostalgic 914 clothing..... |
Elise weighs under 2000 lbs and has a very efficient six speed drivetrain to take advantage of the high end ponies.
I'm curious to know real weight of a Subaru engine conversion in a 914. Once you plumb radiator fill with water, fabricate mounts, add conversion plates to tranny, etc I bet the 914 gains a little weight over a Type 4.
So you would be draging around close to 200 lbs more with 30 hp less in a Suby powered 914 compared to the Elise. If I was going to do a Non-Porsche engine conversion I would definitely go for a newer generation 2.5 turbo from the WRX.
Posted by: carreraguy Feb 12 2006, 10:03 PM
Thanks all for the good feedback.
I did think about the Elise but its like trying on a size 11 shoe when I'm a size 12 - it don't fit. Thats one thing I like about 914's - taller/bigger guys can usually find a fit (even if it requires removing the seat cushion to make room for your helmet to fit).
I may have located a reasonably priced, running, clean AND rust free pre-1976 car; stay tuned Subie fans, I may not be at the PCA events but I hope I'm still invited to the 914(non)Club.com events!
Posted by: McMark Feb 12 2006, 10:13 PM
From what it sounds like, a 240-300 hp subaru motor is going to put you in the same $ range as a 3.6. I'm involved with two 3.6 conversions right now and I'm finding them not all that complicated. I would lean in that direction if the $ is roughly equal. A 3.6 914 would have a higher resale value, IMHO.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 12 2006, 10:34 PM
| QUOTE |
| A 3.6 914 would have a higher resale value |
That's true.
But the price comparison...I'm not so sure about that.
I doubt if anyone has ever done a 3.6 conversion for under $11k in parts alone.
It would be interesting to hear what the most powerful Subie's are going for.
KT
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 12 2006, 11:18 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Feb 12 2006, 08:13 PM) |
| From what it sounds like, a 240-300 hp subaru motor is going to put you in the same $ range as a 3.6. I'm involved with two 3.6 conversions right now and I'm finding them not all that complicated. I would lean in that direction if the $ is roughly equal. A 3.6 914 would have a higher resale value, IMHO. |
I think that would be including a stand alone FI system, a low milage engine, an almost new trans that has a wide choise of LSD's and gear ratios, new CV's etc. Not really apples to apples. I looked at 6's and just saw the parts list keep going and going.
Of course - I'm biased but I'm up front about it.
Posted by: neo914-6 Feb 12 2006, 11:18 PM
| QUOTE (carreraguy @ Feb 12 2006, 08:03 PM) |
| I did think about the Elise but its like trying on a size 11 shoe when I'm a size 12 - it don't fit. Thats one thing I like about 914's - taller/bigger guys can usually find a fit (even if it requires removing the seat cushion to make room for your helmet to fit). I may have located a reasonably priced, running, clean AND rust free pre-1976 car; stay tuned Subie fans, I may not be at the PCA events but I hope I'm still invited to the 914(non)Club.com events! |
I'm not tall and still felt confined in the Elise. I'd still buy one to restyle it. I saw a salvaged Elise on CL recently for $17k with some front nose damage but no chassis damage. Dam, need to get neo done so I can think of the next project...
'76 will require more smog conformance...
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 13 2006, 12:09 AM
Take a look at this Subaru EJ20 Twin turbo engine from Japan. 250 hp from a flat 4!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Subaru-EJ20TT-JDM-Twin-Turbo-Engine-Dune-Buggy-WRX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ46098QQitemZ8036431274QQrdZ1
Posted by: plymouth37 Feb 13 2006, 12:17 AM
check out http://turbo914.com for more info on my subie 914 and renegade's kit.
Posted by: McMark Feb 13 2006, 12:20 AM
Those motors are so cool!!!!
Posted by: carreraguy Feb 13 2006, 02:32 AM
| QUOTE (neo914-6 @ Feb 12 2006, 09:18 PM) |
| '76 will require more smog conformance... |
Felix - if you are referring to my potential candidate for the Suby swap, it's a pre-76 914; definitely don't want smogging hassles. Although, Renegade tells me the Suby would pass CA smog anyway - don't expect it would pass the visual though.
Posted by: cbenitah Feb 13 2006, 03:01 AM
Interesting reading...
I would like a figure.. Does anyone have a quote from a shop on how much a suby would cost to do?
Is it 6K with labor?
Renegade, only option for a conversion or will there be more?
looking forward for more info!
Posted by: Andyrew Feb 13 2006, 03:12 AM
www.rennegadehybrids.com
they primarily do v8's... incase you didnt know.
Kennedy's got adapters for everything. (kennedy engineering products)
Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 13 2006, 10:46 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 12 2006, 11:23 AM) |
| So you would be draging around close to 200 lbs more with 30 hp less in a Suby powered 914 compared to the Elise. If I was going to do a Non-Porsche engine conversion I would definitely go for a newer generation 2.5 turbo from the WRX. |
| QUOTE |
| After seeing what that Lotus felt like, I decided if I could get anywhere close to that feeling I'd be happy. Throw in your turbo setup to bump up that HP range and you really have a screamer in nostalgic 914 clothing..... |
I agree, thats why I mentioned the turbo setup. However I will be happy for the time being to at least double my ponies, and have a flat torque curve for around $2500.
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 13 2006, 10:59 AM
I am in the middle of an extensive rebuild, but I will give you the #'s on just the engine swap. I got my engine (WRX 2.0 Turbo) for $1,500 in 2004. (The engine is a 2004 with 4k miles) Then, Dana at Renegade bought his 9same)engine from the same guy... He bought his for around $1,300 and his is also a 2004 but his had only 400 miles. You have to figure another $500 for the wiring harness and ECU. Another $3k for Renegades kit and radiator. So you can get into this conversion for around $5k for parts only. If you use the same dude Dana and I did.
Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 13 2006, 11:17 AM
I guess thats where I saved a bundle, you have to shop around to find your engine, however mine is N/A and not a turbo.
2004 EJ25 w/ 14k and ECU+ harness for $1100
Posted by: MattR Feb 13 2006, 11:24 AM
My two cents,
You own a 914 for the feel of it, not the performance. Top down, engine growling, etc. I think you can only get that experience with a noisy, rough type 4 or flat six. Its an aircooled trait and its what makes these cars cool.
If you want sheer performance, get a boxster. They're chick cars, they dont feel fun, but they're much faster. Putting a sube in a 914 will yield a faster car then a type 4 powered 914, but you're putting new technology in a 30+ year old chassis and sacrificing what (in my opinion) makes 914s fun.
Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 13 2006, 11:27 AM
Go here and check out the video, this is a great reason to do the Suby turbo swap!!!!
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=42759&hl=
Posted by: Mueller Feb 13 2006, 11:29 AM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 13 2006, 10:24 AM) |
| My two cents, You own a 914 for the feel of it, not the performance. Top down, engine growling, etc. I think you can only get that experience with a noisy, rough type 4 or flat six. Its an aircooled trait and its what makes these cars cool. If you want sheer performance, get a boxster. They're chick cars, they dont feel fun, but they're much faster. Putting a sube in a 914 will yield a faster car then a type 4 powered 914, but you're putting new technology in a 30+ year old chassis and sacrificing what (in my opinion) makes 914s fun. |
what also makes these cars cool is the ability to easily modify them to step up to modern specs and enjoy the benifits of such
with that additude, you might as well sell your 914 and get a Ford Model T complete with engine starting hand crank
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 13 2006, 12:52 PM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 13 2006, 09:24 AM) |
| My two cents, You own a 914 for the feel of it, not the performance. Top down, engine growling, etc. I think you can only get that experience with a noisy, rough type 4 or flat six. Its an aircooled trait and its what makes these cars cool. If you want sheer performance, get a boxster. They're chick cars, they dont feel fun, but they're much faster. Putting a sube in a 914 will yield a faster car then a type 4 powered 914, but you're putting new technology in a 30+ year old chassis and sacrificing what (in my opinion) makes 914s fun. |
My $0.02
I have a 914 for one reason - it' fun to drive. It will be MORE fun to drive with more power and a sweet shifting transmission. It would be really fun hearing the turbo screaming with the roof off, but that will have to wait a bit. My type 4 ran pretty good - better than my daily driver Volvo.
I hope to drive mine 5-8K a year and work on the car when I wan't to not because I have to.
I don't want to hack up my "vintage air cooled car" for the swap so I'm spending more time and figuring out how to do it without cutting up the car.
I think using the drivetrain from a new car in the 914 is a great use of the only good part of new cars.
When this swap is done I might commit some real air-cooled blasphamy and swap a Suby engine and trans into a VW van.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 13 2006, 01:18 PM
I enjoyed that video!
If I didn't find my SIX at such a low price it would be pretty tough to pass on a low cost, modern, high output engine.
Face it, the type IV is a motor that is very expensive.
The lowest rebuild prices are close to the COMPLETE Soob convert.
If you opt for the 200hp Type IV...$15k plus. I won't do that. Sorry if that offends. It's my opinion.
Didn't someone say they could do the Subie conversion and have a garage full of back-up motors for the price of a MassIVe FOUR?
If the only negative is exclusion from competing with a PCA class, what's the big deal?
KT
Posted by: McMark Feb 13 2006, 01:24 PM
| QUOTE (cbenitah @ Feb 13 2006, 01:01 AM) |
| Interesting reading... I would like a figure.. Does anyone have a quote from a shop on how much a suby would cost to do? Is it 6K with labor? Renegade, only option for a conversion or will there be more? looking forward for more info! |
I think you're right on Christopher.
If someone walked in my door and asked for a subie swap, I would probably quote them $5k - $6k in labor. That would include:
1. Custom engine mount bar.
2. Custom radiator setup.
3. Additional gauges.
4. Conversion wiring harness.
5. Any necessary body modifications.
6. All the little fit/finish items.
Posted by: Mueller Feb 13 2006, 01:31 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Feb 13 2006, 12:24 PM) | ||
I think you're right on Christopher. If someone walked in my door and asked for a subie swap, I would probably quote them $5k - $6k in labor. That would include: 1. Custom engine mount bar. 2. Custom radiator setup. 3. Additional gauges. 4. Conversion wiring harness. 5. Any necessary body modifications. 6. All the little fit/finish items. |
ummmmm...Mark he said with labor....not in addition to
currently the suby motors are "disposable" but what about the consumables such as starters (if using suby transmission) clutches and waterpumps and tune up items?
one of these days if I had $4K to $5K land in my lap all at one time, I'd consider a suby swap....
Posted by: alpha434 Feb 13 2006, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 13 2006, 09:24 AM) |
| My two cents, You own a 914 for the feel of it, not the performance. Top down, engine growling, etc. I think you can only get that experience with a noisy, rough type 4 or flat six. Its an aircooled trait and its what makes these cars cool. If you want sheer performance, get a boxster. They're chick cars, they dont feel fun, but they're much faster. Putting a sube in a 914 will yield a faster car then a type 4 powered 914, but you're putting new technology in a 30+ year old chassis and sacrificing what (in my opinion) makes 914s fun. |
Why go to the bother of running water lines and all the crap involved when you could probably find a V-8 for just a little bit over the cost of a suby and just have to do the same thing over. How long would you be happy with whatever menial hp you're getting from a suby boxer engine. How long did it take you to get tired of the menial hp of a type IV?
I'm a purist. Get a 6 if you're tired. They're cool and fun and more noisy than anyone will ever need (especially a cheap little "T") You wouldn't have to run water lines or some exotic ecu. Just a distributor and a carburator.
Or get a boxster. Matt is right. Total chic car. And very fast.
Posted by: Crazyhippy Feb 13 2006, 01:52 PM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 13 2006, 09:24 AM) |
| My two cents, You own a 914 for the feel of it, not the performance. Top down, engine growling, etc. I think you can only get that experience with a noisy, rough type 4 or flat six. Its an aircooled trait and its what makes these cars cool. If you want sheer performance, get a boxster. They're chick cars, they dont feel fun, but they're much faster. Putting a sube in a 914 will yield a faster car then a type 4 powered 914, but you're putting new technology in a 30+ year old chassis and sacrificing what (in my opinion) makes 914s fun. |
Ever driven one?
BJH
Posted by: TonyAKAVW Feb 13 2006, 01:59 PM
If someone were set up with the right tools and plans, all of the following could easily be made in a single day:
Engine support bar
Radiator shroud and mount (for engine bay)
Alternator bracket
Exhaust system
Body modifications
Pretty much everything else can be purchased off the shelf. Properly modifying a Subaru wiring harness would take a lot of time. There's so much to do on it, and each model year is different that it seems it would be tricky for a shop to do this cost effectively.
-Tony
Posted by: TonyAKAVW Feb 13 2006, 02:14 PM
| QUOTE |
| Why go to the bother of running water lines and all the crap involved when you could probably find a V-8 for just a little bit over the cost of a suby and just have to do the same thing over. How long would you be happy with whatever menial hp you're getting from a suby boxer engine. How long did it take you to get tired of the menial hp of a type IV? |
Maybe i should just list the reasons why one might choose a Suabru over a V8.
1. Weight. Subaru engine is lighter than a Type IV, let alone a V8. Mass is distributed better. Flat vs. V.
2. Less torque. Means longer life of transmission, CV joints, and the use of all 5 gears. (all this can be fixed with a V8, but it costs A LOT)
3. Revs to 7000 rpm. Most V8s in 914s don't rev to 7000 rpm
4. Horsepower increases come at relatively low cost. For the turbo engines especially.
5. A WRX engine with some minor tweaking can give 250 HP. Lots of V8s deliver that kind of power, especially ones that you'll find in the same price range as a WRX engine. Sure a V8 can put out 500 HP, but costs go up for everything very fast.
I'm sure there are more reasons, but those are mine at least...
Now in terms of getting tired with horsepower, there is a practical limit. My guess is that on the streets the difference between a 500 HP 914 and a 250 HP 914 would be insignificant. There isn't much you can do on the streets with 500 HP that you can't do with 250. Now if you are into street drag racing maybe theres a difference, but changes are you wouldn't be into 914s.
And the majority of people considering engine swaps are doing it for street cars, not race cars.
-Tony
Posted by: MattR Feb 13 2006, 02:25 PM
| QUOTE (Crazyhippy @ Feb 13 2006, 11:52 AM) | ||
Ever driven one? BJH |
Ive driven WRXs. Ive driven type 4 powered 914s. Ive been in Scott Thatcher's. And yes, my opinion stands.
Its too refined of a car with a sube motor. Its such a fine line and totally subjective...
Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 13 2006, 02:30 PM
| QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 13 2006, 11:47 AM) |
| Why go to the bother of running water lines and all the crap involved when you could probably find a V-8 for just a little bit over the cost of a suby and just have to do the same thing over. How long would you be happy with whatever menial hp you're getting from a suby boxer engine. How long did it take you to get tired of the menial hp of a type IV? I'm a purist. |
True, HP is addictive and once you get a little taste of it eventually you will seek ways to get more. But I think the reason most of us are opting for the Suby is the LBS/HP ratio. The V-8 is a heavy option but effective. The Suby is still a flat four so its not that far of a stretch from what Porsche intended.
A 200HP Type IV is certainly not menial so why would it be considered "menial" horsepower from a Suby?
I think the other item that was well stated above is what will keep this topic so contriversial...... Purist vs. Modifiers. I have no incentive to keep my 914 bone stock. I will always choose to make my vehicles different and better in my opinion than stock. If I wanted what everyone else drove I would have a Ford Tarus.
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 13 2006, 02:35 PM
| QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 13 2006, 11:47 AM) |
| Why go to the bother of running water lines and all the crap involved when you could probably find a V-8 for just a little bit over the cost of a suby and just have to do the same thing over. How long would you be happy with whatever menial hp you're getting from a suby boxer engine. How long did it take you to get tired of the menial hp of a type IV? I'm a purist. Get a 6 if you're tired. They're cool and fun and more noisy than anyone will ever need (especially a cheap little "T") You wouldn't have to run water lines or some exotic ecu. Just a distributor and a carburator. Or get a boxster. Matt is right. Total chic car. And very fast. |
That's the beauty of the Thatcher style Suby swap. The radiator is right there in the engine compartment. If the swapper used a Suby radiator they could even use stock suby radiator hoses.
These things are puttion out close to 300HP in top level form - stock. I think 300HP in a 2000 lb car would take a long time to tired off.
With a hot V-8 your right back to breaking any reasonable priced production transaxle
Posted by: carreraguy Feb 13 2006, 02:50 PM
![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)
Thanks for all the good input, but I didn't wish to start a controversy. I'm just an old fart with possibly more money than brains looking for reliable horsepower in a classic mid-engine platform that is fun to drive.
Bottom line, to me the entire concept of modern engine, lighter overall weight and more hp with appropriate handling and suspension mods is very appealing. On top of all that it uses less gas than a V8 or 911 3.2/3.6!
P.S. I already have a CW taildragger, so I get my "purity" jollies there.
Posted by: 914rrr Feb 13 2006, 02:57 PM
Speaking of "disposable" motors...anybody read the Boxster forums? Something about the only remedy to a common problem ...leaking rear main seal... is to REPLACE THE ENGINE?!?!?!?!? WTF!!!!
Posted by: anthony Feb 13 2006, 03:16 PM
| QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Feb 13 2006, 12:59 PM) |
| Pretty much everything else can be purchased off the shelf. Properly modifying a Subaru wiring harness would take a lot of time. There's so much to do on it, and each model year is different that it seems it would be tricky for a shop to do this cost effectively. |
Does it make any sense to use Megasquirt or carbs on a Subaru engine?
I was just wondering outloud here whether it makes any sense to try and give a Subaru engine a more vintage look.
Posted by: scott thacher Feb 13 2006, 03:51 PM
i am alive, you all are talking about me like i am dead
quick run down of my life over the last year, went to the wcc being self employeed with plenty of work. came home to no work, and after a year of being broke, work that was supposed to happen did not. fast forward to 3 weeks ago i finally got a job that pays me what i deserve in a position that works.
so back to the topic
i look at the porscharu conversion as the next step in the life of a 914, if posrche had kept the design it would have gone water cooled. my cost was about 2700 installed, but i need a timingbelt right now, maybe rebuild the heads or new motor. if i do a new motor it will be a single overhead cam, much easier to hook up the coolant lines.
i am happy with the conversion, it was pretty cheap and it ran well, until i ignored the noise coming from the timing belt.
and it is not a end all conversion it just makes the car more fun and a better daily driver ( less work )
i am done
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 13 2006, 04:02 PM
| QUOTE (carreraguy @ Feb 11 2006, 07:39 PM) |
| what are the pros/cons |
cons: water
pros:
Andy
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 13 2006, 04:14 PM
cons:
possible wheel well cutting.
water lines
pros:
reliable power
better weight distribution (radiator in front)
reliable kick ass power
easy on the transaxle
reliable drifting power
great gas mileage (apporx 30 mpg)
neck straining power that is reliable
pass smog test 1st time
reliable 911 killing power
turbo blow off valve sounds great
reliable 993 killing power
pretty cheap to get into
reliable 996 killing power
do not need to take to Porsche to have engine work
reliable 997 killing power
lightweight (less than type IV)
I think that about covers it!
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 13 2006, 05:55 PM
hmmm, water could actually be a *pro* ...
i mean, if you ever get stuck in the middle of the desert ...
Andy
Posted by: cbenitah Feb 13 2006, 06:06 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Feb 13 2006, 11:24 AM) |
| If someone walked in my door and asked for a subie swap, I would probably quote them $5k - $6k in labor. That would include: 1. Custom engine mount bar. 2. Custom radiator setup. 3. Additional gauges. 4. Conversion wiring harness. 5. Any necessary body modifications. 6. All the little fit/finish items. |
tune in the engine etc...
ok, where is this shop of yours? I'm trying to find different options to take my car when I'm ready for the conversion, but it seams like everyone is doing it at home.. I dont really care if a private person does it.. anyone want to make some xtra $$? The ideal would be if I could be there doing the conversion myself with someone that is a hobby expert on it..
I know there is a lot of purists out there.. But it doesnt have to be all that bad to do something like this.. Ever since I moved to the United States, everyone is very proud of (and should be) freedom of speech.. the thing that brought us into this board is the love of cars.. and for us its a 914 right. Some of us are going fast and some are not.. but when someone asks any of us what kind of car we drive we say: 914..
I love to read all the tech threads in here, it has helped me so much! So lets all drink a
and sing kumbaja by the camp fire!
Posted by: guiltless Feb 13 2006, 07:02 PM
There is something that is being left out here... gas mileage. In the suby turbo motor, cruising in 5th on the freeway (under the turbo) with a 300hp STI 2.5 yields you around 25mpg in even the heavy STI (and that was in my buddys tuned STI making 415hp). Imagine what you would get with a teener.
Power... The setup that I am going to have built (when $ ever gets here) will rev upto 8k, make 450hp on pump gas, and even more torque. Not to mention that peak torque is made around 3000 rpm and continues like a New Mexico butte until about 7000. All this for about the same price as a 993 varioram. All the internals are balanced and forged for strength for years.
Tranny... WRX 5speed with a gearset from PPG. Total for the tranny will be around $5k but it will handle upwards of 600ft/lbs of torque and will shift "dog" style which is way the crap faster than any of us could shift. It would be even cheaper with synchros.
All in all if you are looking for power, a flat torque curve, the great sound of a high power "boxter" style engine, smooth shifting, low weight, great gas mileage, and all around kick-assness, you can't turn your head away from Subaru power.
If you want the sexy "porsche" sound then and you want to preserve the porsche nostalgia, by all means, go with a -6.
Thats just my $.02
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 13 2006, 07:13 PM
| QUOTE (cbenitah @ Feb 13 2006, 04:06 PM) | ||
tune in the engine etc... ok, where is this shop of yours? I'm trying to find different options to take my car when I'm ready for the conversion, but it seams like everyone is doing it at home.. I dont really care if a private person does it.. anyone want to make some xtra $$? The ideal would be if I could be there doing the conversion myself with someone that is a hobby expert on it.. I know there is a lot of purists out there.. But it doesnt have to be all that bad to do something like this.. Ever since I moved to the United States, everyone is very proud of (and should be) freedom of speech.. the thing that brought us into this board is the love of cars.. and for us its a 914 right. Some of us are going fast and some are not.. but when someone asks any of us what kind of car we drive we say: 914.. I love to read all the tech threads in here, it has helped me so much! So lets all drink a and sing kumbaja by the camp fire! |
I hope to offer a kit that a backyard mechanic could install by themselves. This will only happen if I am very pleased with how my install works out. I am doing everything with an eye towards producing this kit.
I'll be more that happy to drink a beer with you
but I'm just not a kumbaja kind of guy.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 13 2006, 07:45 PM
I continue to see many make quotes that a Subaru engine conversion is lighter than a T4. Does anyone have weights of a fully plumbed radiator, adaptor plate and the additional mounting hardware required for the Soobie conversion. What is the actual weight of the various Subaru engines? I'm not convinced a Subaru engine conversion, once its installed, is lighter than a T4.
I do agree that 914 loses a lot of character without a T4 or a small displacement six. That's why I chose a carbed 2.4 six for my project. I'll likely crush the price of a Subaru conversion and have much prettier sounds. If I drove a WRX conversion I would need to bring my iPod with correct Porsche sounds loaded and drive around with my headphones on all the time to drown out the mad farting sound of the Subaru engine! 
Posted by: scotts-toolwench Feb 13 2006, 07:52 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 13 2006, 05:45 PM) |
| I continue to see many make quotes that a Subaru engine conversion is lighter than a T4. Does anyone have weights of a fully plumbed radiator, adaptor plate and the additional mounting hardware required for the Soobie conversion. What is the actual weight of the various Subaru engines? I'm not convinced a Subaru engine conversion, once its installed, is lighter than a T4. I do agree that 914 loses a lot of character without a T4 or a small displacement six. That's why I chose a carbed 2.4 six for my project. I'll likely crush the price of a Subaru conversion and have much prettier sounds. If I drove a WRX conversion I would need to bring my iPod with correct Porsche sounds loaded and drive around with my headphones on all the time to drown out the mad farting sound of the Subaru engine! |
Well I don't know much about the weight....(unless it's my own, which just ain't pretty!
)But as far as sound quality goes....when I met Scott the 914 had a 1.8 stock engine in it. After the Suby conversion I jumped in the car with him and drove across the country in it. She sounded exactly the same to me with just a hint of throatiness.
Trust me, I, of all people had a great opertunity to hear what both engines sound like.....and there isn't a diffrence. So by all means keep your iPod on whatever kind of tunes you like....
Posted by: jimkelly Feb 13 2006, 08:16 PM
The choice of a stock type four - or a hot rodded type four - or a porsche 6 of any level, or a subaru powered 914 is not about which is better or worse in theory - it is about what each of us prefers based on a variety of personal reasons. 
I am happy to see a 914 on the road regardless of what powers it - but a clean six with 5 lug suspension will probably always impress me most - this though is way outside my budget - thus I am leaning toward a naturally aspired subaru ej22 2.2L 135HP power plant now more than ever due to Steve's efforts of getting an ej powerplant to work in a 914 with subaru 5spd tranny 
For me the reasons are: total cost, power, reliability, overall weight, gas mileage, water for heat, etc
boxters vs briefs - get a similar about of debate 
Posted by: cbenitah Feb 13 2006, 08:39 PM
| QUOTE (Porcharu @ Feb 13 2006, 05:13 PM) |
| I hope to offer a kit that a backyard mechanic could install by themselves. This will only happen if I am very pleased with how my install works out. I am doing everything with an eye towards producing this kit. I'll be more that happy to drink a beer with you but I'm just not a kumbaja kind of guy. |
we can skip the song hahah. I just didnt like the tone that was going on for a while.. we are slaves under the 914 god, and lets not start a war among us.. I have learned so much from being in the us.. culture shock at least.. and i hope those i met have learned a little about sweden..
wow, sign me up, ill buy it from you. would that be with the suby tranny too? I know you want to be happy with your own conversion.. and I sure hope you will be.. do you have any timeframe as how long it will take to get a kit done.. im looking to do the swap this coming winter, since I'm hoping the 1.8 will have a little life left.
thanks guys!
Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 14 2006, 09:40 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 13 2006, 05:45 PM) |
| What is the actual weight of the various Subaru engines? I'm not convinced a Subaru engine conversion, once its installed, is lighter than a T4. |
According to the KEP product catalog (they list all their conversions, motors, HP ratings and most weights), the Suby 2.0, 2.2, and 2.5 weigh in at 260 lbs.
I'm still happy with that compared to a 450lb V8....
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 14 2006, 11:01 AM
Dana, what was the weight of your car that you got from the truck scales?
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 14 2006, 11:05 AM
Just called Dana, he told me the actual weight of his car full of gas with a full cage and a 600watt sound system is 2180lbs.
Posted by: MattR Feb 14 2006, 11:41 AM
| QUOTE (WRX914 @ Feb 13 2006, 02:14 PM) |
| reliable 911 killing power reliable 993 killing power reliable 996 killing power reliable 997 killing power |
Okay, okay. I have no sense of humor. This is a joke.
But is there anyone out there in TV land that really thinks a hybrid 30 year old bug and motortrend motor can really contend with the latest from Stuttgart?
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 14 2006, 11:49 AM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 14 2006, 09:41 AM) | ||
Okay, okay. I have no sense of humor. This is a joke. But is there anyone out there in TV land that really thinks a hybrid 30 year old bug and motortrend motor can really contend with the latest from Stuttgart? |
Just ask Dana how the 997 stacked up against his turbo...
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 14 2006, 11:57 AM
granted, it (997) was not a turbo... but he was in a brand new 997 and he was looking at the rear end of Dana's teener by the time he got to the next light. If you are driving Dana's car, you need to start in 2nd. The 997 took him off of the line, but once he got rolling it was nothing but rear view mirror for the 997...
Dana's car is capable of 60mph in 1st(actually 2nd) , 90mph in 2nd (actually 3rd), 120+ in 3rd (4th) and I believe he has had it up to 150+ in 4th (5th). Not a killer off the line, but with a little clutch it seems to do ok.
His car does haul ass.
997
Posted by: MattR Feb 14 2006, 12:04 PM
| QUOTE (WRX914 @ Feb 14 2006, 09:57 AM) |
| granted, it (997) was not a turbo... but he was in a brand new 997 and he was looking at the rear end of Dana's teener by the time he got to the next light. If you are driving Dana's car, you need to start in 2nd. The 997 took him off of the line, but once he got rolling it was nothing but rear view mirror for the 997... Dana's car is capable of 60mph in 1st(actually 2nd) , 90mph in 2nd (actually 3rd), 120+ in 3rd (4th) and I believe he has had it up to 150+ in 4th (5th). Not a killer off the line, but with a little clutch it seems to do ok. His car does haul ass. 997 |
are you drag racing?
this is the wrong forum
with the right driver, a 996 cup car can do 1:26s at big willow. thats pretty quick. The 997 is even quicker.
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 14 2006, 12:07 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 13 2006, 05:45 PM) |
| I continue to see many make quotes that a Subaru engine conversion is lighter than a T4. Does anyone have weights of a fully plumbed radiator, adaptor plate and the additional mounting hardware required for the Soobie conversion. What is the actual weight of the various Subaru engines? I'm not convinced a Subaru engine conversion, once its installed, is lighter than a T4. |
My scale says - The Suby engine is 236 pounds plus 18 pounds for the fuel supply and injectors, alternator and bracket plus the throttle body. I think the radiator full of water would add 20 lbs - top.
The T4 broke my scale
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 14 2006, 12:11 PM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 14 2006, 10:04 AM) | ||
are you drag racing? this is the wrong forum with the right driver, a 996 cup car can do 1:26s at big willow. thats pretty quick. The 997 is even quicker. |
No, I think he was just having fun on the weekends. And there is no way a Suby converted teener on a normal mans budget could keep up with a cup car
. This was just a regular stock 997...
Posted by: MattR Feb 14 2006, 12:12 PM
Ahh, you sorta have to ignore the whole "budget" thing. The latest from stuttgart will cost ya six figures. A sube conversion can be done for 4, from what I hear... big difference
Posted by: SirAndy Feb 14 2006, 12:31 PM
guys
even if a suby engine would not be my first choice, it's still a 914 ...
i'd rather see people drive a suby-914 than no 914 at all.
and if you really want to make an impression at the drag-strip (or the stop light),
go electric!
nothing like 1000+ flbs of torque at 0 (zero) RPM ...
Andy
Posted by: Marty Yeoman Feb 14 2006, 02:32 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Feb 14 2006, 10:31 AM) |
| i'd rather see people drive a suby-914 than no 914 at all. |
Posted by: Eddie Williams Feb 14 2006, 02:54 PM
I can't believe someone actually had to ask this group if we had an opinion!!
Posted by: Goge Feb 14 2006, 03:53 PM
My opinion is that I don't want a porscharu to sound like a type IV. I want it to sound like a 6!
Anyone know if the 3.0 liter H6 would fit? Supposedly 75lbs more than an EJ25 but only an inch longer. Not sure about width. I read somewhere someone stuffed one into an Impreza with stock tranny, but I'm not sure that means it would work with the normal Kennedy VW-Soob adapter kit.
Firing order is different than Porsche-6, but I have a hunch it would still sound sweet!
Price is for sure higher, at least at this point in time, but if one could be had for cheapish... fun-fun-fun
Posted by: Mueller Feb 14 2006, 04:04 PM
| QUOTE (MattR @ Feb 14 2006, 11:04 AM) |
| are you drag racing? this is the wrong forum with the right driver, a 996 cup car can do 1:26s at big willow. thats pretty quick. The 997 is even quicker. |
how can you compare a track only prepped "cup car" to a street driven 914???
hp to weight the 914/suby should have the edge depeding on the config.....
suspension wise, yes, the 997 better have the edge, but how far off will they be??
interesting to see an engineering student such as yourself being so negative on such a swap
Posted by: Mueller Feb 14 2006, 04:33 PM
| QUOTE |
| That's why I chose a carbed 2.4 six for my project. I'll likely crush the price of a Subaru conversion and have much prettier sounds. |
not wishing any "ill will", but all it takes is one bad downshift and your "economy" /SIX conversion has now gone up 300% in costs out of pocket unless you find another killer deal.........
Posted by: WRX914 Feb 14 2006, 04:35 PM
| QUOTE (SirAndy @ Feb 14 2006, 10:31 AM) |
| guys :rolleyes: even if a suby engine would not be my first choice, it's still a 914 ... i'd rather see people drive a suby-914 than no 914 at all. and if you really want to make an impression at the drag-strip (or the stop light), go electric! nothing like 1000+ flbs of torque at 0 (zero) RPM ... Andy |
you are correct sir!
I build custom golf carts... www.koolkartz.com
We made a club car go over 100mph with very little modifications. Electric motors are killer off of the line, talk about neck snap!
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