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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ my suspension upgrade report

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Feb 16 2006, 10:53 AM

I had some springs for sale. many members asked me about why I was selling them and more imprtantly what effect did it have on teh cars handling and street drivability

the 180 or 200s require bigger torsion bars to work well. I run 22mm with a stock sway bar and Falkin Azinis 205 50 15
I ran the 180 on the track but never tested the 200s on teh track. the car is neutral and rotates well with slight throttle modulation.
on teh street it is OK but a very sharp difference in ride quality. on teh street the bumps get much less travel out of the suspension so it can be a bit jaring on some roads (lyons Valley rd)
on teh track the suspension responds MUCH quicker. it also loads up alot more energy so if you jerk it around on teh street you better know about car balance. the good news is that only in teh most extreme evasive manuver wold you experience this and if you do upset teh cars balance, it recovers instantly .

why did I sell them? I am moving to a 2.5 inch ID spring that is 8 inches long. they fit tighter against teh shock and I am also upgrading to threaded perches to enable proper corner balancing and ride height adjustability. teh smaller spring should track more vertically true under compression also

I have a bitmap of teh Weltmeister suspension recomendation chart. I need someone here to convert it to a format that I can post it here

Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 16 2006, 11:30 AM

You can email me the .BMP and I can send you back a .JPG or just post it for you....

curt_r@lowrance.com

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 16 2006, 11:56 AM

i have 22's ad 225 2.5 ID springs.....

im told ill "push a little", time to set sway to ful soft, and keep rear connected

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Feb 17 2006, 10:32 AM

I was told I would understeer also. the rear is up in teh air a bit wich I am sure changes things a bit

where did you buy the springs and perches?

Posted by: r_towle Feb 17 2006, 10:55 AM

I have the 180m rears, 23mm TB and 21MM sway bar

I did push at first...
I had the car corner balanced...it help...
I eventually dropped the rear two notches on the bills in the rear and it made all the difference in the world...

I think AA and I have "discussed" this before...
I found if you measure from the top of rim to bottm on fender lip....set the front a 1/4 to 3/8 higher than the read...it still seems to have a true rake to the front...but that is where I measure from...
It stopped the push....
It was all about putting more wieght on the rear to begin with that made the difference....It took me several years of different settings to get it to stick no matter what....that was the goal..

And the Welt swy on front is on the arm about 1.25 inches showing...thats not full soft..I kept changing that slowly...1/4 inch at a time, both sides the same...I started at full soft..
I have no rear bar.

I traded cars with a guy.
My setup
23mm TB, 22 mm sway
180lbs rear welts.
Bilstiens all the way around
poly bushings

He could not get me car to let go.

His car.
front is tock
rear 180 lbs
rear sway
front sway

His rear end was like driving on snow or ice...I could not keep it from sliding...it was cool, a different driving style...but not what I am used to.

Rich

Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 17 2006, 11:04 AM

Chart from Sean....

Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: Cloudbuster Feb 17 2006, 11:47 AM

I got my springs and perches from http://www.paragon-products.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y

I have a set of 200 lbs 2.5" ID springs I don't need.

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Feb 17 2006, 12:10 PM

thanks Rich. you confirm what I was thinking. I cant wait to make the changes. I wish I had time to do them before tomorrow's AX

I acnt drop the rear any more with my Konis. they are on the last notch. next stop....adjustible perches

Rich, what do you think about running a 175 lbs 8 inch with a 4 inch 25lbs helper spring? like I have seen on teh newer suspension set ups

Mrdezyne: thanks for posting that for us

Mark: linky no worky

Posted by: sean_v8_914 Feb 17 2006, 12:16 PM

fdhf

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 17 2006, 01:18 PM

sean, go with a 10" spring, it makes life a little easier.....

i have 8's and they work just fine, its just the adjuster is wayyy up there

Posted by: trekkor Feb 17 2006, 01:41 PM

Not so quick on the "you have to have stiffer torsions".

I run 200# rears with stock torsions up front.
I am running the SRP front bar, 31mm.Set 2/3rds firm.
Koni yellows and rear bar connected.

I'm being 100% honest. My car only becomes upset when I do something that *no* suspension combo could overcome.
For example:
1. Carrying too much speed into a corner and using the brakes into the turn=snap oversteer.
2. Applying way too much throttle while in a turn=snap over steer.
3. Trying to go through turn carrying too much speed=understeer.

See the pattern? Too much is not always a good thing

KT

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 17 2006, 01:48 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 17 2006, 12:41 PM)
Not so quick on the "you have to have stiffer torsions".

I run 200# rears with stock torsions up front.
I am running the SRP front bar, 31mm.Set 2/3rds firm.
Koni yellows and rear bar connected.

I'm being 100% honest. My car only becomes upset when I do something that *no* suspension combo could overcome.
For example:
1. Carrying too much speed into a corner and using the brakes into the turn=snap oversteer.
2. Applying way too much throttle while in a turn=snap over steer.
3. Trying to go through turn carrying too much speed=understeer.

See the pattern? Too much is not always a good thing

KT

not trying to discount what you are saying....

but your way is just one 'school of thought' in the 'racer's university'

there are many ways to do it

Posted by: trekkor Feb 17 2006, 01:50 PM

I know

Isn't it fun

KT

Posted by: Eddie914 Feb 17 2006, 01:52 PM

The Paragon price for the coil over kit is $240.

Does one kit have parts to convert both sides, or are two kits required to convert both rear shocks?

Thanks

Eddie

Posted by: Cloudbuster Feb 17 2006, 02:21 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 17 2006, 11:48 AM)
but your way is just one 'school of thought' in the 'racer's university'

I hope they grade on a curve...

(Somebody, take away my keyboard. Please!)

Posted by: Dr. Roger Feb 17 2006, 02:28 PM

coleman kit. $40.00.

http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=49_427

EDIT: wrong ID but you get the idea...

roger

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 17 2006, 02:33 PM

QUOTE (rogergrubb @ Feb 17 2006, 01:28 PM)
coleman kit. $40.00.

http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=49_427

EDIT: wrong ID but you get the idea...

roger

yup... thats what i got and AFCO coils off ebay for *gasp* 20 a pair new!

Posted by: mrdezyne Feb 17 2006, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (Eddie914 @ Feb 17 2006, 11:52 AM)
The Paragon price for the coil over kit is $240.

Does one kit have parts to convert both sides, or are two kits required to convert both rear shocks?

Thanks

Eddie

$240? I would certainly hope it is for both sides.....

Ground Control kit with Eibach springs..... http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=76/CA=24

$200

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 17 2006, 04:16 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 17 2006, 11:41 AM)

I'm being 100% honest. My car only becomes upset when I do something that *no* suspension combo could overcome.
For example:
1. Carrying too much speed into a corner and using the brakes into the turn=snap oversteer.
2. Applying way too much throttle while in a turn=snap over steer.
3. Trying to go through turn carrying too much speed=understeer.

See the pattern? Too much is not always a good thing

KT

That would be no suspension combo* that you know of*, me thinks. Like everyone that doesn't have a perfect set-up (this includes me, unfortunately), you compensate for things that your car does, but don't think it has to be that way.

I can't cure any of your #s 1 thru 3, but I sure as hell keep working on my list of quirks (both mine and the car's) that I know aren't up to snuff. I'm not done with "Handling 101"....maybe this year I'll get thru it.

Posted by: trekkor Feb 17 2006, 04:22 PM

Yeah JP, it's tough to know when to stop the mods

My point is that everybody's car has a limit.
Mine has to do with using the too much's in 1-3 above.

I'm getting much better at driving within the limit.

KT

Posted by: trekkor Feb 17 2006, 04:24 PM

Oh, and anybody who has ridden with me or seen drive at the a/x knows I drive to and though the limit.

On the Big track I don't drive to the limit. No way...

KT

Posted by: J P Stein Feb 17 2006, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 17 2006, 02:22 PM)
Yeah JP, it's tough to know when to stop the mods

Heh,heh.......I can't argue with that

I'm not happy with the way my car handles, so the mods keep coming. The tough part is when to say "Gud enuff".

Posted by: trekkor Feb 17 2006, 04:46 PM

Right now, car's OK.

Workin' me now. That's where the trouble is.

KT