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Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 18 2006, 09:58 PM

I right now have the19 mm MC , SS brake lines and bmw front caliper upgrade from PO

I have heard the the stockers are just as good if working properly .. is this true ... is there a better setup than both and keeping the 4 lug ..

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 18 2006, 10:01 PM

Magical Billet hubs, M calipers and vented SC rotors all with 4 lug

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 18 2006, 10:08 PM

billet hubs -- are those the muller ones? how much

M calipers ? like bmw M calipers?


sc rotors ?

splan more please

and cost

or are you tring to be a little funny

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 18 2006, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 18 2006, 09:08 PM)

billet hubs -- are those the muller ones? how much M calipers ? like bmw M calipers? sc rotors ? splan more please and cost or are you tring to be a little funny

M calipers - PORSCHE M calipers. off pre 74 911's, in both vented and non vented versions

SC rotors - 911 SC vented rotors....

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 18 2006, 10:17 PM

oooo.. --well I kinda feel like a dumbass... well what do all these items run price wise and how hard to get


and on the calipers does it make a differance which version I get and can I run the M calipers as bolt ons like the bmw brakes

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 18 2006, 10:18 PM

No funny
Dead serious.
M calipers are 3 inch mounting bolt spacing, from early 911s. Fit directly to your 914-4 struts.
Yes, the Mueller hubs.
SC rotors as in 911SC 1978-1983

As far as price goes, the hubs are $400 IIRC
M Calipers anywhere from $50+ per pair depending on condition
SC rotors are $50 per brand new

your BMW calipers run with solid (non-vented) rotors.
M calipers run with vented (SC) rotors

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 18 2006, 10:20 PM

are the muller hubs nessiary or just for the grins and giggles factor

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 18 2006, 10:25 PM

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 18 2006, 09:20 PM)

are the muller hubs nessiary or just for the grins and giggles factor

obviously not neccesary.... because your car dont have em on it


it gives you vented rotors vs solid rotors....

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 18 2006, 10:28 PM

The billet hubs are the only way you can run the SC vented rotors.
The hubs mimic the function and look of 911 hubs. This way you can buy just rotors instead of your current rotor/hub combination. With the billet hubs you don't have to buy change bearings etc when you need new rotors.
Otherwise what would be the point of putting a larger caliper and generating more heat with no improved way of dissipating that heat?
Why add M calipers and keep solid rotors.

What is your obsession with thinking that the hubs are something comical?

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 18 2006, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Feb 18 2006, 09:28 PM)

The billet hubs are the only way you can run the SC vented rotors. The hubs mimic the function and look of 911 hubs. This way you can buy just rotors instead of your current rotor/hub combination. With the billet hubs you don't have to buy change bearings etc when you need new rotors. Otherwise what would be the point of putting a larger caliper and generating more heat with no improved way of dissipating that heat? Why add M calipers and keep solid rotors. What is your obsession with thinking that the hubs are something comical?

with dan the man.....


do a little research first...

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 18 2006, 10:33 PM

no not comical.. just did know if the the billet was suggested for racing wieght savings or because it was the best good option ...or both ----

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 18 2006, 10:35 PM

i have researched all I could find as an alternative was teh 911 5 lug conversion or the bmw on PP-- that is why I asked you guys because the club collective has a lot of knowlage that I not only having had a 914 since november

Posted by: john rogers Feb 18 2006, 10:49 PM

On my vintage 2L race car, I use the billet front hubs, M calipers with Pagid race pads, slotted rotors in front, BMW calipers with Axis semi metalic pads in back and my car can out brake an all wheel drive Mitsu rally car or late model Corvette in a Mexican circuit (street) race and do it lap after lap. I use a 23 MM master cylinder through as I like a short pedal travel.

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 19 2006, 12:21 AM

anyone know a good place to get the calipers?

and if I pick up the hubs, calipers , pads , rotors ..any others parts I will need to do the swap ?

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Feb 19 2006, 12:36 AM

Any friendly Porsche dismantelers in your neck of the woods?
Lots of times the calipers and rotors will show up at swap meets.
Watch the classifieds here, they show up occasionally.
Only other thing you might need would be new bearings.
Possibly new hard brake lines on the strut, if you can't bend the orginals.
914-6 or early 911 hard brake line will work.
Good Luck

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 19 2006, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Feb 18 2006, 11:36 PM)

Any friendly Porsche dismantelers in your neck of the woods? Lots of times the calipers and rotors will show up at swap meets. Watch the classifieds here, they show up occasionally. Only other thing you might need would be new bearings. Possibly new hard brake lines on the strut, if you can't bend the orginals. 914-6 or early 911 hard brake line will work. Good Luck

to elaborate on the brake line....

most M calipers utilize a BANJO fitting on the line....

its better to get the line off the 911

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 10:06 AM

hey just out of curiosity .. are the 911t ...M calipers
the same as the 914/6 ones?

Posted by: Dr Evil Feb 21 2006, 11:20 AM

Hey Mike,
Perhaps if you look at how the 911 rotors attach you will see the need for the custom billet hubs Mueller makes. They attach differently than our stock ones and will only work with either the 911 front end or Muellers adaptors.

For parts, look at the pelican parts 911 classifieds, ask here in the parts section. I got the 3" M calipers from a member here for cheap. I believe the 914/6 are the same. The main thing is that the mounting bolt holes for the caliper are 3" spaced, not 3.5".
HTH

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 11:25 AM

ok thanks for the info ...I am already 90% there money wise to get teh mueller hubs and the rotors from the club store .. just scouting out the calipers now


I am also adding turbo tie rods and new balljoints and 165# rear springs ....also if i happen on some extra cash getting my rears calipers done right by eric shea

Posted by: r_towle Feb 21 2006, 11:38 AM

I dont want to get smacked here...

What are your intentions with the car?

Big vented brakes (I could debate that the 911 rotors are not Big)
are really only needed for a serious track car.

Your setup with 19mm, bmw front calipers, and stock rears will stop the car on a dime...if they are set up correctly.

get more aggressive pads up front, get and adjustable proportioning valve, and fix what you have.
Spend the money on good front struts and rear shocks.
Adjustable koni's

JMHO

Rich

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 11:48 AM

what about the whole the bmw setup is all wrong for the heat it produces thing... and won't more aggressive pads augment that ?

what do you mean set up correctly?

the adjustable proportian vale , hadn't thought of that ...

I thought the adjustable koni did a 4x4 move on the rear end

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 11:52 AM

QUOTE

Your setup with 19mm, bmw front calipers, and stock rears will stop the car on a dime...if they are set up correctly.

Do you have 'silly money' or something?

You have basically a stock 2.0 914 right? I would consider BMW's and braided lines a downgrade from what you had.

You've got a 2.0 914 with BMW calipers on it already. I believe the BMW Calipers have a larger pad surface than the 911 M-Caliper.

Take 1/4 of what you're now considering spending and make sure you have a t-fitting (I wouldn't invest in an adjustable version) and Porterfield pads.

Those brakes oughta 'hurt you'.

Like Rich says... spend the dough elsewhere. Koni's would be my choice as well. Or... some awesome tires.

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 11:56 AM

QUOTE

what about the whole the bmw setup is all wrong for the heat it produces thing... and won't more aggressive pads augment that ?

Rotors are cheap

QUOTE

what do you mean set up correctly?

I would say... bleed'em, adjust them and get awesome pads.

QUOTE

the adjustable proportian vale , hadn't thought of that ...

I wouldn't think of that...

QUOTE

I thought the adjustable koni did a 4x4 move on the rear end

Please tell us what you want to do with your car and we'll help as best we can.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 21 2006, 12:08 PM

koni's go hand in hand with shorter springs or adjustable perches....

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 01:15 PM

Shocks don't raise your ride height...

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 01:26 PM

plan is this... my orginal plan was a mcmark 2056... well my wife changed her mond and now that has to wait...

so now I want it to be a VERY good handling / performing hard driven street car .. no track time


I have stock front and rear sways , unidentafiable shocks and springs , I have turbo tie rods and new balljoints ready to be put in ,.. the afore mentioned ... 19mm MC , SS brakelines , bmw upgrade -- running 195/50/15's


stock 2.0L w/ FI k&N , blue coil , ss heat excahngers , bursht exhuast

all serious suggestions taken , please

mike

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 01:29 PM

I was told that adding red konis would jack up the rear of the car ... it kinda made sense becuse higher pressure(?) shocks on a stock spring not under load might cause the back to 4x4 a bit ... dunno took their word for it I guess

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 03:17 PM

QUOTE

I was told that adding red konis would jack up the rear of the car

Check out your shocks and inserts. From what it sounds like the PO did... you may be pleasantly surprised.

Spend $150 on Porterfields, front and rear. Make sure you have a T. Get some new fluid in there and have lots of fun.

That's my $0.02 without going into dramatic detail on your car and your proposed driving habits.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 21 2006, 03:26 PM

IMO, if you don't have 200 HP, you only need stock brakes or BMW brakes... once they work, they work! good tires, bleed well, and drive the bitch!!

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 03:42 PM

the rear shocks are orange no markings other than saying made in mexico..? .. the I have no idea what springs are on it ...



so not to beat a dead horse but leave it as is with the install of the turbo tie rods .. replace the pads .. and shocks and possible springs .. bleed the brakes and new fluid and I should be in a real good place with this car ....right?


are we talking the yellow konis or the reds.... and are the 165# springs a good idea ?


what about like poly graphite bushings are those kinda overboard for what I am looking at ?


thanks for the help guys ..

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 03:54 PM

QUOTE

turbo tie rods

- Can't go wrong as long as you get the Lemforders

QUOTE

replace the pads

Porterfield street pads as mentioned here.

QUOTE

shocks

Koni Reds on full soft make a very nice street shock.

QUOTE

possible springs

140's would be my max for street.

QUOTE

bleed the brakes and new fluid and I should be in a real good place with this car ....right?

If that doesn't throw you through the windshield... you've got a problem.

QUOTE

what about like poly graphite bushings are those kinda overboard for what I am looking at ?

Probably... hard to beat factory rubber for your application. If you plan on ripping everything off/out then you may want to look into it at that time. Check them while you're down there. If they're excessively worn it should be done.

Not sure about those shocks. They may be Boge's Some Boge inserts I've had were orange... Orange usually means Koni but I don't think they're "Hecho en Mexico"

Posted by: SGB Feb 21 2006, 04:02 PM

Hard bushings will shake parts off of both you and your car in regular street use. Tie rods and shocks (good ones- I prefer Bilstien but Konis may be better) are mega-important to good stopping, as is a lowered ride hieght. There was a good article in Panorama several months ago about braking that pretty much concluded with "the best braking improvement is from lowering the CG". It was a really technical article, discussing pad sizes, heat dissipation rates, and the energy transfer process involved. Generally, Porsche brakes are already pretty optimum for the design loading, which includes a pretty hefty safety-factor. Of course, when you put in a Raby motor and 240 tires, things might be a littler stressed...

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 05:21 PM

what is the differance between koni yellows and reds ..?

and then those vs bilsteins

and where is the best place to get those pads ?

Posted by: Mueller Feb 21 2006, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 21 2006, 04:21 PM)

what is the differance between koni yellows and reds ..? and then those vs bilsteins and where is the best place to get those pads ?

Koni yellows you open the hood and twist a knob to adjust....the reds you have to remove the shock to adjust (PITA if you ask me)

Bils are non-adjustable....I like the Koni Yellows over the other choices....

shox.com or paragon for the shocks

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 05:32 PM

are the yellows the sport konis?

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 05:37 PM

and what does it mean when they say a progressive spring .. and used springs a bad thing?

Posted by: Travis Neff Feb 21 2006, 05:48 PM

Yellow's are sport valved Konis, adjust via knob at the top of the shock. Adjusts rebound only.

Koni Gas Reds are street valved with adjustment knobs at the tops of the shocks. Adjust rebound only.

Koni red Hydraulics are the ones where you remove the insert, compres and twist to adjust. Adjust rebound only.

Posted by: Mueller Feb 21 2006, 05:51 PM

koni yellows are sport...I think the reds are no longer made

used springs should be okay to use.....

springs come in 2 flavors, linear and progressive

linear = same spring rate from 1" to 5" or whatever compression

progressive = softer for an inch or so, then they get firmer...

most springs sold for our cars are linear....

140# springs are a decent rate for a street car.....

Posted by: jetboy Feb 21 2006, 06:46 PM

I see a bunch of comments about the stock brakes being good enough to not need better. So, does that mean they are suited to work well with the added weight of a /6 (2.4-3.2) and some more rubber on the rims? If not, then in my opinion there is room for improvement. Is anyone running a /6 this size and still using stock brakes for daily driven (spirited) and occasional AX?

Not intended to hijack... What front/rear springs would be recommended for a daily driven (spirted) and AX teener with a 3.0 /6?

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 07:08 PM

where is the best place to get Porterfield street pads

Posted by: lapuwali Feb 21 2006, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (jetboy @ Feb 21 2006, 04:46 PM)

I see a bunch of comments about the stock brakes being good enough to not need better. So, does that mean they are suited to work well with the added weight of a /6 (2.4-3.2) and some more rubber on the rims? If not, then in my opinion there is room for improvement. Is anyone running a /6 this size and still using stock brakes for daily driven (spirited) and occasional AX? Not intended to hijack... What front/rear springs would be recommended for a daily driven (spirted) and AX teener with a 3.0 /6?

Even with more power, and extra weight, and better tires, the stock brakes can be plenty adequate if you're only on the street. The stock brakes can be completely inadequate even with the stock engine and 165 tires if you're going to spend loads of time braking into downhill hairpins from high speed.

AX rarely puts much stress on brakes, simply because the runs are so short, and you get so much cool-off time between runs. On the street, if you're overheating your brakes, you are (IMHO) overdriving on the street, or you have a much worse than stock braking system. So, for your proposed use, I'd venture the stock brakes would likely be adequate.

Track use continually puts heat into the brakes, so vented rotors are often a big help. If you're running for long periods, calipers that use bigger pads can cut pad wear so soft pads will last a long session.

If you're running lots more rubber than stock, esp. at the back, bigger REAR calipers with an adjustable prop valve can help get more rear bias into the system. This also helps if you have more rear weight, and you lower the CG (less forward weight transfer).

Bigger calipers, by themselves, are a worthless upgrade. Vented rotors where they're not needed add lots of unsprung weight, so they can cause other problems.

You need to determine for yourself if you need to improve your brakes based on how you use the car. If you're overheating the brakes regularly, try a higher temp brake fluid and do a better job of bleeding (even small amounts of trapped air will cause problems when hot). Try better pads. Those things alone can often substantially improve your brake's resistance to fade, for much less money and hassle then a new system.

If you're still overheating your brakes, then vented front rotors are the next thing to try (ClubHubs and stock calipers with spacers can get you there).

Posted by: Mueller Feb 21 2006, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 21 2006, 06:08 PM)

where is the best place to get Porterfield street pads

http://www.livermoreperformance.com/porsche_brake_pads.html............

Posted by: jetboy Feb 21 2006, 08:10 PM

When i said spirited driving i meant fun runs through canyons and hillsides. Lots of corners going from 50/70 down to 15 for hairpins. If the brakes overheat here, your not stopping and either into the face of the hill or off the cliff. So, extra protection against that is what im looking at. Better safe then sorry.

What about spring rates for the added weight of a 3.0 /6? 140 good enough, or something a little firmer?

Posted by: rdauenhauer Feb 21 2006, 08:24 PM

Ok Ill drop...

QUOTE

and do a better job of bleeding

Sorry, but your brakes are either bled on not, trapped air should be able to be completely purged from the syetem but as others have commented MANY times prior the OE prop valve is a serious impediment and in some instances has to also be blead.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 21 2006, 08:40 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 21 2006, 08:19 PM)

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 21 2006, 06:08 PM) where is the best place to get  Porterfield street pads http://www.livermoreperformance.com/porsche_brake_pads.html............

that's where I got mine, too!

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 08:54 PM

so does that mean an adjustable proportioning valve is also suggested?

Posted by: lapuwali Feb 21 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (jetboy @ Feb 21 2006, 06:10 PM)

When i said spirited driving i meant fun runs through canyons and hillsides. Lots of corners going from 50/70 down to 15 for hairpins. If the brakes overheat here, your not stopping and either into the face of the hill or off the cliff. So, extra protection against that is what im looking at. Better safe then sorry. What about spring rates for the added weight of a 3.0 /6? 140 good enough, or something a little firmer?

Better safe than sorry in that situation to me means you don't push it to the limit in such corners time after time unless you know the brakes will take it. This is all part of determining if the braking system is adequate. It's quite possible to approach cooking your brakes in this kind of environment while still leaving yourself plenty of leeway. Done it many times, in many cars, over many years.

You asked, I'm telling. Spend the money any way you like.

I should probably ask the spring rate question in a different thread, though I believe it's been answered before.

Brakes aren't always "bled or not bled". The last couple of %, esp. in the 914 setup, can offer little change in feel but a big change in fade resistance. The prop valve isn't the only problem. The low-mounted master cylinder seems to contribute to the difficulty in getting them bled completely, too. I've never actually had a problem with the OE prop valve myself.

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 10:52 PM

so with the pads should I replace bothe front and back with the same pads?


oh and eric .. I might sooner rather than later be sending you some cores for a recaliper rebuilds if I am doing all this other stuff..

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 11:00 PM

QUOTE

If the brakes overheat here, your not stopping and either into the face of the hill or off the cliff. So, extra protection against that is what im looking at. Better safe then sorry.

'Ever' hear of this happening with a 914? Let me answer that for you. No. You would have to get into 'serious' stupid driving situations to have your teener brakes waltz on you. Porsche brakes are 'always' over-engineered. I've 'never' heard of a 914 overheating the brakes so bad that it wouldn't stop. I've never heard of a street 914 overheating their brakes period. And, in inpromptu questions put out by James, only serious track cars with stock brakes have ever reported fade.

When I recommend an upgrade, it's an over-engineered upgrade, meaning; I like to use factory guidelines.

To your previous question about a 3.0 and bigger tires. Sure. For your 3.0 that you're thinking about building (I thought this was answered in another thread... ) I would recommend S or A-calipers up front, a t-fitting and 914 rears... that's squeaking by on the rears. 914-6 rears would be better but you can't find them at a reasonable price. 911 rears and 'someone's-spot-caliper-solution-soon-to-be-out...' (Calling Marty) would be the best. Again, anything beyond that for a 3.0 and a light 914 would be a waste of dough. But like James says... 'Spend the money any way you like.'

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 11:02 PM

QUOTE

so with the pads should I replace bothe front and back with the same pads?

With a well balance system, sure.

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Feb 21 2006, 01:17 PM)

[. Make sure you have a T. Get some new fluid in there and have lots of fun.

ok sorry I have not had a lot of chanses to really dig in to the car sice I bought it in november .. what T are you speaking of ... meaning a T fitting in place of the stock porportioning vale ?

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 21 2006, 11:07 PM

Yup... with BMW's, use the T

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 21 2006, 11:18 PM

I looked at the bird , paand paragon ... where would I find the proper T fitting...... and how long is the wait for a set of rebuilt
rear calipers?

I figure if I am diong it I might as well know the rears are working right...

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 22 2006, 08:45 AM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 22 2006, 09:59 AM

Needie aren't we?

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D803%2D611%2D755

About 1 week on the calipers, depending. We'z got a bunch of orders coming in right now. Let me check what's plated and get back with you. Late model right? 73-76??

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 22 2006, 10:09 AM

me needie...

I am used to restoring motorcycles but cars... so I am a little unsure .. and espesily w/ brakes you know stopping is a good thing!

thnaks for all the help though

Posted by: Mueller Feb 22 2006, 10:11 AM

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 21 2006, 09:52 PM)

so with the pads should I replace bothe front and back with the same pads? oh and eric .. I might sooner rather than later be sending you some cores for a recaliper rebuilds if I am doing all this other stuff..

good performance pads up front or on all 4 corners...cheap pads only on the rear or all 4 corners


you never want to run a better or more aggressive brake pad in the rear than in the front unless you know what and why you are doing it (Chevy did it and got sued for it, rear brakes worked better than the fronts and cars lost control)

Like Eric mentioned, Porsche brakes are over-engineered, even on the lowly /4 models I have a newer Hyundai Elantra, the rotors are smaller(10" vrs 11") than on the 914 with brake pads about the same size (no ABS)...2700 pound car...car stops great.....only car I've ever cooked/overheated the brakes on is our 3500 pound Volvo with calipers just a tad bigger up front (rear pads are tiny)...just like the 914 it has 11" rotors but they are vented

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 22 2006, 10:24 AM

QUOTE

me needie...

8:45AM and already bump'n the ole thread. Get to work so you can pay for all this shit

(Oh, and send me a 'Combo' I'm dyin out here in Salt Lake... no good combo's anywhere!!)

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 22 2006, 10:30 AM

had surgery stuck at home too much time to dream and blow $$ ---but the vicadin is nice

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 22 2006, 10:59 AM

QUOTE

(Oh, and send me a 'Combo' I'm dyin out here in Salt Lake... no good combo's anywhere!!)

OK... Send vicadin instead

Get well.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Feb 22 2006, 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ Feb 22 2006, 09:59 AM)

QUOTE (Oh, and send me a 'Combo' I'm dyin out here in Salt Lake... no good combo's anywhere!!) OK... Send vicadin instead Get well.

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 22 2006, 01:26 PM

that's it I call for a vivadin party at my house!! i have a60day supply , beer and a BBQ!!

any takers?

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 22 2006, 05:07 PM

any down sides to removeng that pressure regilator and replacing it w/ the T fitting ... be fore I order one?

Posted by: Mueller Feb 22 2006, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Feb 22 2006, 04:07 PM)

any down sides to removeng that pressure regilator and replacing it w/ the T fitting ... be fore I order one?

why the "T"???

Posted by: sk8kat1 Feb 22 2006, 05:21 PM

suggested by eric shea...

Posted by: Eric_Shea Feb 22 2006, 05:48 PM

QUOTE

why the "T"???

He has BMW fronts right now.

ChiTown Mike... have the wife crawl under there and check first. Most BMW mods suggest the "T" and it 'might' already be there.