Hello 914ers,
I've got a question that has to do with a Volvo project I'm working on. V8 conversion, and because I'm doing an efan and the engine is a little farther forward in the chassis than standard (due to the t56 tranny), I'm having some issues.
The main issue is that I had to install the radiator 1" farther forward than standard. Not a huge problem, everything still fits, but the radiator is too tall and the cap extends above the slope of the fenders. When I get the hood back on, I'm going to have some problems. What I need to do is lower the top of the radiator crossmember.
It's a U shaped channel, probably about 3" deep. 18 gauge steel, and with a stamped piece of 18 guage steel spot welded to the top of the channel to close it off. I figure to put the radiator in a position where the hood will close comfortably I need to chop about 1.5" out of the legs of the U.
I bounced this off of a friend of mine who is an aero eng. grad student, and he confirmed what I thought--that the strenght of the crossmember is directly related to the height of the U. He couldn't answer my followup questions about whether seam welding and going with a thicker gauge of metal (16 or thicker vs 18) would make up for the lack of height.
He did suggest that filling the enclosed crossmember with a heat expanding foam would add to the torsional rigidity, but didn't have any specific suggestions on products. IIRC a couple of manufacturers do this on their frame rails. Is anyone familiar with this technique, and where I can obtain such a product? Would one of those home insulation spray expanding foam product work (sprayed after all the welding is done obviously)?
I have another question, which is related to cutting the 1.5" out. I'm not good at all with eyeballing a cut, and I can't get a ruler/t-square anything like that on there, as the crossember bows out in places, and I can't just measure up from the bottom as it's not a uniform depth.
I've levelled the car off side to side, and will level it front to rear, so I was thinking I could lay some saran wrap in the channel, and fill it with something like plaster of paris. Something that'll pour in, and setup hard yet still be removable. Assuming I have everything levelled off, I should get a pretty straight and uniform line that I can use as a guide for my cutting. Sound reasonable? Any suggestions on a good material to use? Any other suggestions on getting an accurate cut?
Thanks for any input/advice.
Adam
QUOTE (3liter914-6 @ Feb 19 2006, 10:24 AM) |
... the radiator is too tall and the cap extends above the slope of the fenders. When I get the hood back on, I'm going to have some problems. |
Estimating torsional rigidity is going to be EXTRA hard without pics!
Could you reinforce in front of and behind the radiator after you make those cuts? Are we most worried about securely holding the radiator or chassis flex?
QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 19 2006, 11:55 AM) |
Estimating torsional rigidity is going to be EXTRA hard without pics! Could you reinforce in front of and behind the radiator after you make those cuts? Are we most worried about securely holding the radiator or chassis flex? |
QUOTE (smontanaro @ Feb 19 2006, 11:48 AM) | ||
Why not recore the radiator with a shorter core? |
Put a big "Z" behind the radiator. That should do it, as long as the radiaor won't fall out.
QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 19 2006, 12:26 PM) |
Put a big "Z" behind the radiator. That should do it, as long as the radiaor won't fall out. |
QUOTE (3liter914-6 @ Feb 19 2006, 12:44 PM) | ||
Ok, now I'm going to need pictures. . |
What model Volvo? I have a 240 and can go out and look at mine for suggestions. I have a 351 roller cam short block sitting on a shelf for this car someday.
Check summit racing for aftermarket radiators. For $200-$300 you can find a nice amuminum unit that will fit. I'd hate to see you do all this chopping and then find that the stock radiator won't cool a V8 and have to swicth anyways. (aluminum radiators are MUCH more effective than brass ones)
QUOTE (bondo @ Feb 19 2006, 03:14 PM) |
Check summit racing for aftermarket radiators. For $200-$300 you can find a nice amuminum unit that will fit. I'd hate to see you do all this chopping and then find that the stock radiator won't cool a V8 and have to swicth anyways. (aluminum radiators are MUCH more effective than brass ones) |
QUOTE (Porcharu @ Feb 19 2006, 02:19 PM) |
What model Volvo? I have a 240 and can go out and look at mine for suggestions. I have a 351 roller cam short block sitting on a shelf for this car someday. |
QUOTE (3liter914-6 @ Feb 19 2006, 01:36 PM) | ||
The windsor is doable but a tight fit, owing to the taller deck height. I'm working with a .030 over SBC. The car is a '90 240DL. I have some pics on my laptop of the crossmember, but they're not at the right angle. I'm going to go and grab some later this afternoon. I really appreciate all the input. Here's where I'm at so far BTW: The flat shelf in the front is the piece I need to modify. |
I would modify the body as a last resource. I agree with Royce in finding a radiator to fit perfectly so when you replace it you won't need something too custom.
If your commited to this radiator and it's just the filler cap, try to seal it (rubber plug, epoxy, or cut the filler spout and plastic weld it.) Then add a filler tee with cap inline on the hose where it clears.
I looked at my car a few minutes ago. I wouldn't cut up that crossmember and modify it. I would get a radiator that fits or just cut the whole thing out and replace it with some rectangular tubing - it's all nice and flat in that area and should be easy to do.
Can you cut the whole piece out and weld it in a lower position? An "X" or a "Z" set of cross bars right in front of the engine should be more then enough to keep the chassis from twisting.
And everyone else should aknowledge that he WANTS to do this, and even if it seems unreasonable to one of us, or all of us; he's asking for help on HOW not IF. Right? Sorry. I'm defensive on the subject. Ti rods and all.
QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 19 2006, 05:47 PM) |
Can you cut the whole piece out and weld it in a lower position? An "X" or a "Z" set of cross bars right in front of the engine should be more then enough to keep the chassis from twisting. he's asking for help on HOW not IF. Right? Sorry. I'm defensive on the subject. Ti rods and all. |
QUOTE (alpha434 @ Feb 19 2006, 05:47 PM) |
Can you cut the whole piece out and weld it in a lower position? An "X" or a "Z" set of cross bars right in front of the engine should be more then enough to keep the chassis from twisting. |
QUOTE (bondo @ Feb 19 2006, 03:45 PM) |
Is that an LT1 with a belt driven water pump? (looks like an LT1 intake manifold/throttle body) |
Hey Man
Let start by saying thumbs up on the choice of conversion I have always been a fan of Volvo V8
That Xmember does look salvagable (sp). and the cross bracing would help, but not as much as we would hope. It would only be affective in one dirrection, and the V8 pulls in a twisty dirrection. I am "fine tuning" a 400+hp G-Body, and this rad Xmember is a hot topic.
I thing you are going to have to spend some time thinking this out. You could go to a metal supplier and inquire about a 4X1/2 box tubing, change it and be done, or if you are dead set on modifying this one, I will see if I can find a pic on how my Monte is crossed brace, bet it would help...
Later
Hre it is
http://www.scandc.com/chassisbraces.htm
Later
A bottom view picture would be helpful.
From what I see in the picture, I would suggest the thicker gauge sheet metal and/or if you want to keep the stock piece (just cut down) the weld plates on the walls of the U-channel (inside or out, doesn't matter) the full length and make sure those plates are one looooong piece. Or you could weld a long angle iron to the outside of the upper U part, sort of like thickening the 90ยบ angle.
Doesn't really look that difficult but, then again, I'm not familiar with Volvo structures. Does that U-channel just support the radiator? Does it also just keep the fenders from pinching in?
QUOTE (3liter914-6 @ Feb 19 2006, 06:32 PM) | ||
It's actually an L98 block. I need to run EFI for emissions, but it's got AFR heads and a few other goodies that would be crippled by the TPI, so I modified an LT1 intake to fit. Management is via MSnS. |
QUOTE (bondo @ Feb 19 2006, 10:55 PM) | ||||
Cool! Where's the water outlet/thermostat? |
QUOTE (3liter914-6 @ Feb 20 2006, 06:32 AM) | ||||||
Wow, you're not missing anything, are ya. If you run the LT1 intake, you tap the rear for coolant outlets, and then run an external thermostat like this: |
SBC in a Volvo. That's cool!
I wish those slow lame-ass Volvos driving in the left hand lane while we are going in to work in the morning had small blocks!
QUOTE (bondo @ Feb 21 2006, 03:13 PM) |
I'm putting an LT1 in my 914, so I'm very familiar with the intake manifold (I had to turn it around, which required modifications). I was very appreciative that there was no coolant in the intake.. That would have made it much harder. |
QUOTE (maf914 @ Feb 21 2006, 03:34 PM) |
SBC in a Volvo. That's cool! I wish those slow lame-ass Volvos driving in the left hand lane while we are going in to work in the morning had small blocks! |
QUOTE (Air_Cooled_Nut @ Feb 19 2006, 10:17 PM) |
Doesn't really look that difficult but, then again, I'm not familiar with Volvo structures. Does that U-channel just support the radiator? Does it also just keep the fenders from pinching in? |
QUOTE (3liter914-6 @ Feb 22 2006, 11:14 AM) | ||
Sounds pretty neat. Do you have a thread up on the mods, I'd like to give it a lookover. |
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