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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Budget six conversion builders
Posted by: anthony Feb 22 2006, 09:52 PM
I compiled the following list of conversion parts. This is just to put a six cylinder engine in the car and doesn't include a 5 lug conversion or suspension mods. So for you guys that throw out low total conversion prices please tell us how you did it and how you cut costs. Often I see references to exceptional deals on engines that can't be easily reproduced or incomplete parts lists that don't include all the parts or headers/exhaust.
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Posted by: trekkor Feb 22 2006, 09:59 PM
It's all in my thread... 
Grant will likely document his, too.
KT
Posted by: brant Feb 22 2006, 10:00 PM
Anthony,
I think people thow out numbers for bargain sale used Items...
but that not really fair since those kind of things are not readily available or even at all available sometimes.
Also, when compairing used, or very used parts it seams to me that a lot of times these $ figures are thrown out in comparison to new type 4 parts... I never see anyone quoting the t4 used jake motors when they quote used -6 motors or -6 parts.. (just an observation)
finally, I think you missed a couple of items in your list.
tach
shift linkage modification
so there are some cars out there that have done a good job on building their own parts, and buying items at fire clearance prices to keep the costs down... but for the average person who wants to buy new or is on a time schedule then your table is accurate.
brant
Posted by: trekkor Feb 22 2006, 10:14 PM
True about the deals 
I got plenty.
KT
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 22 2006, 10:32 PM
That's a fair assessment of goodies cost...and as Brant said, incomplete. Deals are out there, however.....like the incomplete project in OR. in the classifieds. Someone outta jump on that....if it ain't gone.
Posted by: anthony Feb 22 2006, 10:34 PM
Brant, what is the shift linkage mod? I forgot about the tach. What are the costs on those two items?
Trekkor, do you have a spreadsheet of your costs? Other than super deals, can you comment on the list I posted and how you cut the costs?
In one of the other topics Grant threw out some numbers but he appeared to be missing half the parts needed. I asked about it but he didn't respond. Hopefully he will.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 22 2006, 11:00 PM
The shift rod mod keeps the stock rod from hitting the headers.
I did mine in an hour, at home- free!
tach prices will vary, EASY, Partsheaven, MikeZ, etc.
| QUOTE |
| from "Shall I say...SIX?" Jan 10 2005 Motor $1500 Oil tank, cooler, thermostat $800 Headers, muffler $400 Motor Mount bar $200 Shift rod mod, engine tin, bell crank $Free Cooler mod $100 AN Oil lines and hose end fittings $400 Fuel pump $100 Fuel pressure regulator $50 Alternator, guages, motor mounts, hardware, misc bits $400 $3950. |
I had a great running FOUR, so I was in no hurry to do the conversion.
My advice is: don't start your conversion until all the parts are in hand.
With a pile of parts you can do the conversion in less than a week.
KT
Posted by: jetboy Feb 22 2006, 11:45 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 22 2006, 09:00 PM) |
| The shift rod mod keeps the stock rod from hitting the headers. KT |
On the topic of the shift rod hitting the headers or heat exchangers with the side shift rod... Is this also true for a tailshifter rod? Or are there additional issues remaining with a tailshift trans?
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 23 2006, 12:56 AM
I will list prices without tax and shipping. Pulled my actual invoices rather than doing this from memory (I have a shipping sponsor so all my big frieght is free)
Used (35,000 miles) but strong running 2.4 911 E engine with triple webers, 914-6 oil tank, filler, complete 914-6 engine tin set, 912 engine mount bar (sold for $50) $2375 (total cost minus sold part $2325)
MSDS Headers with 914club 20% discount $432 
Used Muffler. $250
Clutch conversion Kennedy Engineered Products Est. $500
I'm still shopping for the other items on your list and hope I will come under the prices you have quoted.
I was patient and shopped for nearly a year until I found my engine and conversion part deals. I lost plenty of ebay auctions and didnt get to classifieds in time for lots of 6 conversion part deals, but I was persistant and feel I'm making a budget 6 conversion a reality. Froogle.com is my freind too.
I remember when Trekkor was doing his budget 6 that some, includling myself, believed his situation was unusual and it wasnt realistic to do a 6 conversion for such low costs. Now I think I'm on track to make another budget conversion at similar cost.
However I may be unique as I'm all about function and budget rather than making a pretty car that wins popularity contests. My conversion 914-6 will be mechnically sound and well balanced track and AX car.
Posted by: 914Timo Feb 23 2006, 01:11 AM
Motor Mount, ~$20 materials
Engine sheet metal, ~$5 materials
914-6 oil cooler modification, 0$
Accellerator linkage kit, ~$5 materials
Headers, ~$30 materials
Posted by: thesey914 Feb 23 2006, 02:03 AM
Got my Flywheel for forty quid ($88 shipped) early 911 flywheel.
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 23 2006, 02:13 AM
I am using a front mounted tank.
tank (Patterson Enterprises), Engine Breather, Tank Breather --$500
Oil Filter Canton-Mecca Racing -----$100
Motor Mounts Made my own ------Time (Watch my blog when I weld these in)
Engine Sheet Metal Made My own ----- Time (See my link below)
Oil Cooler Modification -----$25 for -16 90degree AN Fitting TIG welded at work for free
Accelerator linkage kit Made my own ----Time (I can't believe that most of you use the contraption that you do) (watch my BLOG)
AN Oil Lines ------ $450 or so
Front Oil Cooler -----$325
Front Oil Cooler Shroud Making my own ----Time
Shift Rod Modification Made my own ------Time
Axles (modified 914-6 axles to accept 911 CV Joints) --- Time
Front 911 suspension ------ $300
Headers (European Racing) ------ Gift
Muffler (have one from track car) ----- Free
Wheels --------- Gift
Rear Hubs & 911 Stub Axles and Trans Output Flanges (for 901) ------ came with engine package
911 axles (for the CV Joints) ------ came with the engine package
915 trans ---- Came with the engine package
915 shifter, rods/linkage --- came with engine package
Tach, Combo Gauge, Speedo, Fuel Pump, Coil, fuel lines ---came with engine package
915 clutch & pressure plate -- came with engine package
901 conversion flywheel, PP, clutch disk ---- had from previous conversion (to use until I convert the 915 for use in 914)
915-916 conversion kit ------ $1,500
Engine Package 3.2 w/Motronic, mated with 915 trans, all wiring, ECU, known running with good leakdown, no smoke, no leaks
with all above mentioned components ------ $8,000
I wanted to go as late model as I could afford with Motronic. I have done the carb thing, and this being a street car, I wanted something easy to start that will run smooth cold or hot. I spent the most money on the engine and 915 trans. Most others seem to find a budget motor somehow (it's those deals that are too good to be true and I'm never in the right place at the right time). I could easily take out $3000 to do it without the 915, but I figured that long term, I would end up going that way anyway experience kind of teaches those things.
I know for a fact that when my dad and I converted his car (he bought the parts and I put them in), he ended up spending a considerable amount more than I am now. This is mainly due to the fact that there are more resources available to me now than there was to him back then 14+ years ago. It seems that at the time, we were one of the first to do the 3.2 conversion, so there was nothing to compare to. Everything I fabricated was a one-off, like my engine mount, and my throttle linkage. Other items were figured out through VW-Porsche Magazine, Panorama, or phone conversations between my dad and some of the suppliers.
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 10:52 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 23 2006, 12:39 AM) | ||
Talking about rare! I havent seen a used Raby engine the entire time I was shopping. And given durability of big bore T4 I would be suspect of buying a used 4. I did look at a couple used T4's that ultimately were more expensive than the 2.4 6 I found. There are a lot more nice used 6 cylinder engines in the market that assure prices are kept reasonable. |
hmmm...
I thought my memory wasn't so good.
but I can think of 2 raby kits that have come along fairly recently....
Didn't mike Mueller sell a raby kit 2 months ago.
and someone else did too about 3 months ago.
both were unassembled, but I'll bet you that they sold for a fraction of what they cost new....
I myself sold a used hot -4 motor a few years ago. I sold it for 2100, but I had 6K+ into it.
The buyer got 150hp for $2100 with headers/carbs/electromotive/flywheel/everything
The point is...
that used motor prices to new motor prices are really an inaccurate comparison.
Everyone talks about doing their own welding and paying $0 dollars for things like cooler modifications... but should we not factor in the cost of the TIG class at the local votec school and perhaps the 2K$ that the TIG machine costs?
I agree a -6 conversion can be done cheaply in the 4K range.. but your failing to count your tools, skills, labor and time at that price estimate. Its really just cost shifting and bad accounting.
Let me frame it another way. Trekkor could of factored in the extra $3K of labor and fabrication that he invested into his project.
His total should read: $4K materials + $3K labor = $7K
Your motor was a hellacious deal. but you yourself said it took 12months to find... you cost shifted your time in exchange for a great deal...
not everyone is going to find a 1500 motor like trekkors that is in as good of a shape. In fact a lot of people could find 1500 motors that need 7K worth of rebuild.
brant
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 23 2006, 11:22 AM
| QUOTE |
| . but your failing to count your tools, skills, labor and time at that price estimate. Its really just cost shifting and bad accounting. |
I don't agree. For me, this is a hobby, and the cost of this "project" is simply the expendatures incurred for this and only this "project".
Tools would be the cost of the "hobby".
Time is not included in "hobbies" as they are things done for fun. It is supposed to be something that you can spend time on and not worry about how long it takes to get there. FUN/Enjoyment is what hobbies are about.
Otherwise it becomes a business.
Posted by: iamchappy Feb 23 2006, 11:30 AM
Shop for somebody else's project. You will end up way ahead in the long run.
I bought a six conversion PCA club racers roller. Check different PCA club classifieds,
I purchased mine from a San Diego PCA club member and ended up with a car that was complete all I needed was an engine and tires nothing more.
Posted by: goose2 Feb 23 2006, 11:43 AM
There's no way I can get a handle on my real costs. I bought a 6 parts car, sold a bunch of stuff from it, kept some, traded a 1.7 car and another for a semi completed 2.4 six conversion, sold the 2.4, bought a core 3.0, building the 3.0, bought another parts car, traded some more, got a load of 911 SC parts, sold and traded more, bought/sold/traded wheels, brakes, suspension.....this has all happened in less than 1 year....an accountant's nightmare. I think I'm doing pretty good cost wise...unless I count my time, then I'm screwed! Having fun though 
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 11:45 AM
There is a grey line there somewhere...
its a hobby to me also.
but when prepairing a cost list for someone else to use (someone that may have different skills, tools, resources, time) I don't think its fair to assume that they can get certain things done for free....
There was a post earlier from someone that wanted to rebuild a -6 motor themselves. They were asking if it was going to be expensive or if they were going to need special tools or skills.
Would it be fair to tell the guy "don't worry about it" you can get a bunch of used parts from motor meister and do the whole thing yourself for 700$ bucks!
I think that is a misrepesentation.
I think you tell the guy that he can invest in going to anderson's class, invest in books, invest in tools, and then do the work himself for another $3500 bucks. Or if he is on a tight time schedule and is working like an accountant at tax time, then he can pay someone like Jeff on our group to do the whole thing for 5K.....
same thing with conversion estimates.
I feel like quoting only the low end of the range is kinda like having a kitchen remodeler come into your house and when he quotes the job as costing between 6-8 grand, expecting it to be done ONLY on the low end of the quote...
How many people have gone a paint shop or body shop to bid their car and ended up spending more than the low end of the bid due to extra damage, or extra work while they were there...
I guess I'm being too sensitive...
I think that LOTS of deals can be had
LOTS of pieces can be self fabricated.
but Not everyone is going to be able to score a 4K conversion...
case in point..
with the exception of Grant and Trekkor, how many people on this board have more than 4K into their conversions. How many cars are for sale out there with 18K into them by the owner that paid shop rates for the conversion.
Its all a mater of how you add the numbers and how you use your time.
How often do I see people ask for motor mount suggestions... collaboratively as a club do we usually tell people to spend 20$ on sheet metal and build their own, or do we usually advise people to save themselves the headaches and buy a KNOWN good product from Rich Johnson?
I'm still comfortable telling a newbie that to do a conversion with a used motor is going to end up being $6K-8K and with a new motor $10K-12K on average and that he can save some a grand or two of that money if he is able to do more of his own work and fabrication.
brant
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 23 2006, 12:32 PM
| QUOTE |
| I think that LOTS of deals can be had LOTS of pieces can be self fabricated. but Not everyone is going to be able to score a 4K conversion... |
Agreed. I see your point.
I just wish the topic starter would help clarify what they were intending to find out here.
A list of parts was posted with what I consider to be high prices for stuff that I can fabricate or source elsewhere. This list was missing one minor component (THE ENGINE).
My post went through all the items I paid for as well as those that I made myself in my shop (or at work). Being a mechanical engineer helps me to design stuff I need and allows me to work closely with fabricators who help me out (by TIG welding for free, etc.).
My conversion (less engine) is fairly inexpensive compared to the list originally provided, but each piece that I make is at least of equal quality to that on the list, and the prices on the list are more or less fair prices. I won't sell my engine sheet metal for less than $350/set because it takes me a whole weekend to fabricate. Sure it's about $10.00 material. I would rather do my hobby than someone elses.
I know others on the site that can fab thier own parts cheaper than they can buy them and others can get these screamin deals that the rest of us can only wish we could get.
I just don't know who comes up with the budget prices in the first place. Mine are actual costs.
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 12:38 PM
Grant,
you spent your time...
not everyone has time to surf the internet or look for that length of time...
agree'd there are Way more used -6's out there.
but my point was that people keep comparing used to new, and those numbers are apples to oranges.
I put a NEW motor in my conversion. Thats Apples to Apples but I didn't get it for $1500 bucks.
all of the 3-4K motors with 90 day warranties are exactly what I'm saying... 4K for motor 4K for parts = 8K
(for the AVERAGE guy...minus 1-2 thousand if they do there own fabrication and search for deals.)
I don't disagree that its possible.
I think your car will be awesome.
I think Trekkor's car is awesome.
I think that its misleading to tell every newbie with less skills, less experience, and less knowledge that 4k total is the norm.
brant
Posted by: Kerrys914 Feb 23 2006, 12:41 PM
If things go well you can reproduce close to Trekkor's conversion. My budget conversion was hit by alot of BAD luck...This = $$$$$
Broken exhaust stud = Topend rebuild and re-ringed ($700+/-)
Bad ignition system = wasted $200+/-
Carb parts to get engine tuned = $200 +/-
Good deal on engine mount tuning out to be a bad deal wasted $150+/-
New tools because you need new tools = $200 +/-
Any $$ to by the new items all these DAM 914 parts inventors keep making
I think I ran about $2000 over budget. I would say plan on $6000 and hope for less 
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 12:45 PM
| QUOTE (JOHNMAN @ Feb 23 2006, 11:32 AM) |
| Agreed. I see your point. I just wish the topic starter would help clarify what they were intending to find out here. A list of parts was posted with what I consider to be high prices for stuff that I can fabricate or source elsewhere. This list was missing one minor component (THE ENGINE). My post went through all the items I paid for as well as those that I made myself in my shop (or at work). Being a mechanical engineer helps me to design stuff I need and allows me to work closely with fabricators who help me out (by TIG welding for free, etc.). My conversion (less engine) is fairly inexpensive compared to the list originally provided, but each piece that I make is at least of equal quality to that on the list, and the prices on the list are more or less fair prices. I won't sell my engine sheet metal for less than $350/set because it takes me a whole weekend to fabricate. Sure it's about $10.00 material. I would rather do my hobby than someone elses. I know others on the site that can fab thier own parts cheaper than they can buy them and others can get these screamin deals that the rest of us can only wish we could get. I just don't know who comes up with the budget prices in the first place. Mine are actual costs. |
John,
I think your list of your actual costs is GREAT!
I love these little bugger cars, and I love to spend my money on learning skills, buying tools, and then using that knowledge to play.
I think your list of costs very accurately answered the original thread question..
again... I don't know why I got so hung up on this thread. But I hate misrepresenting things and like all things in life, the cost of the conversion can be done on different budgets and in different ways.
p.s. I think you deserve to get $ for your tin work.
Just like Rich Johnson deserves to get his $ for an engine mount... good products are worth money! places like snap-on stay in business because of value
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 12:48 PM
| QUOTE (Kerrys914 @ Feb 23 2006, 11:41 AM) |
| If things go well you can reproduce close to Trekkor's conversion. My budget conversion was hit by alot of BAD luck...This = $$$$$ Broken exhaust stud = Topend rebuild and re-ringed ($700+/-) Bad ignition system = wasted $200+/- Carb parts to get engine tuned = $200 +/- Good deal on engine mount tuning out to be a bad deal wasted $150+/- New tools because you need new tools = $200 +/- Any $$ to by the new items all these DAM 914 parts inventors keep making I think I ran about $2000 over budget. I would say plan on $6000 and hope for less |
and some bad luck should be factored into a budget when you are gambling on finding 1500 complete motors.
I'm not referring specifically to Kerry or even specifically to Trekkor.... I'm more referring to any new guy that thinks he can roll the dice and complete the whole job for 4K
brant
Posted by: 736conver Feb 23 2006, 01:22 PM
If your patience it can be done cheap. If you handy and can weld even cheaper.
Made my own 6 mount.
Modified my shift bar.
Made my own 6 throttle linkage.
Bought a 1971 911, that had a running motor with zentihs for $1500. Car was trashed but had deep dish 901 wheels. Sold the wheels for $1200. Took the front end for my car and sold the rest of the car for $1000.
So I got and engine and a front end and made $700 which went for other parts.
Posted by: Kerrys914 Feb 23 2006, 01:25 PM
I went with a 2.2 engine due to cost ONLY. I new the conversion would be tight money wise and the 911 guys are dumping the smaller engines for low $$. My thinking was to use the 2.2 engine for a year or so and save for a larger SIX. Once I have the 2.2 running and working great the swap tp a larger motor. As long as I don't go silly larger the upgrade should be just the cost of the complete engine.
My goal (at day 1) was to get a old running SIX for around $1500. I knew it would be tired but it was only to last a summer or two. Now, due to the issues I had, I have a very nice running engine with a fresh top end, new seals, and new rings +.
The biggest killer is the "While you are there" thoughts you get.
The conversion took twice as long and was a MASSIVE learning experience. I can't wait until the spring and really get to drive my SIX. I finished it late last summer.
This year it will get further tuned and some new shoes
Posted by: Mike D. Feb 23 2006, 01:44 PM
I went with the incomplete project route. I already had a '74 2.0 and found a 73 with 5 lug and unfinished conversion for $5K. I took everything I wanted from the 73 and put my 74 engine and 4 lug suspension on it then sold it as a running car for $2200. So I had everything to build my car for $2800 plus a few hundred for misc. gaskets, oil cooler, lines and fittings, jets, fuel pump, etc. Did all the work myself, so I'm in pretty good shape there $.
The only down side is that the engine in the conversion car was supposed to be a 2.7 and turned out to be a 2.0. but still a great deal for all the parts.
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 02:03 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 23 2006, 12:19 PM) |
| brant [/QUOTE] I think it may even be more misleading to direct a newbie to a big bore T4. Newbies are probably better off with a stock rebuild using stock FI. I factored in an additional $7K into my project just in case the engine had problems. I still would be ahead of the cost of a 2270 Massive 4 build with aftermarket fuel injection or carbs |
Grant,
I'm not trying to argue that a type 4 is a better deal or cheaper... your misunderstanding my conviction in all of this...
I'm trying to show that the $4,000 number is not a realistic number to thow out to everyone.... And that if your going to give someone any numbers at all, then you should make those numbers accurate and give them full disclosure on both sides of the 4-vs-6 debate.
you were smart to factor in the extra money..
but how come in all the threads about cheap conversions no one is telling this idea of having a safety net budget to the general public...
I love the -6...
I've raced both and clearly love the -6
but I don't tell my close friends to jump into a project like this with a blindfold on and $4,000 in their hand.
(I more realistically tell them that they need a lot of skill or else 6-8K to do it... and if they are picky son's-of-Beaches like Ferg or Greg, then I tell them to plan on 12K+)
god bless... I hope you get yours done for 4K
and your on the right path with the screaming deal on your motor.... There certainly needs to be more than 1 or 2 people out there who have done it... but I'll bet there are still another thousand people in the US of A who have spend closer to $10K on their conversions.
brant
Posted by: lapuwali Feb 23 2006, 02:31 PM
I think the lesson here is the AVERAGE conversion cost is going to be $9-10K, not the minimum cost. If you're patient, lucky, and resourceful, you can beat this number by a lot. Some will spend a lot more, either due to mishap, or because they want more.
The $4K number IS legit and realistic, but you're looking at the bottom end of the scale, where you have to work a lot harder to get a good result. Where someone can't or won't put in the time and effort that Trekkor did (not everyone has a job that allows them to repeatedly spend several consecutive days on something like this), is going to spend more. Trekkor also got the least desirable engine. Using a 2.7 or 3.0 would instantly add $2-4K to the pricetag, just in buying the engine, at a minimum.
Can it be done for $4K? Obviously. Can YOU do it for $4K? A very different question. For most people, the answer would be no.
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 23 2006, 02:32 PM
Compare apples to apples guys
I could do an el-cheapo T4 for about $1000 and it would have more power than a tired 2.0/6...hell of a lot less work. But I have the resources.
How much does headrage have into his /6 now...just a bit of bad luck.
Back on the bird board one member (posting in this thread) sent me his list (.pdf) with about $15,000 in parts. His car is still not what I call done.
How much do some of the guys really have into some of there conversions here??"? of the low budget jobs here how many are real hackjobs??
Some of the guys going "hell ya I get/do everything cheap" have talents, tools, time, friends and resources way beyond the scope of the regular guy.
To me their good advice is just piss poor advice in drag.
Posted by: Dr Evil Feb 23 2006, 03:32 PM
Mark is right. I have a fresh 2.7 because I have fiends, and a knack for finding deals on things.
...did I mention friends? Oh, and friends.
For a shop I did find a cheap AND good shop in San Diego. For tools you need to look around becasue deals are to be had. I used Engine Builder Supply for all of my parts and I researched new data to compare with ancient wizdom to save $$ and educate my self (like regarding alusil p/c and reconditioning rockers).
And friends!
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 04:13 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 23 2006, 03:06 PM) | ||
I'm well humored about this whole thing. My key point is that when people talk about big bore T4's they almost always underestimate conversion costs, yes conversion costs. There are countless threads here where plenty of people warn about hidden costs of a 6 conversion, but few warn about the true costs of a big bore t4. I did do some home work around Big Bore T4's . When discussing these engines people often discount the cost of fuel delivery conversion costs, exhaust system costs, oil cooler costs, clutch upgrades, critical gauges to measure temps, ignition systems, machining work and plenty more if you dont want a hack job Massive 4. I am also leary of true long term logevity of big bore t4's for track use. Plenty of validated data that shows longevity of stock sixes. Very little verifiable data about big bore t4 reliability other than here say. There are plenty of accounts of low mileage blown big bore T4s. And ulitmately most people dont factor in increased resale value of a 914-6 conversion over a big bore T4. As long as I dont do a complete hack job my 914-6 conversion should be worth at least $3K more than a big bore t4 conversion. I factored this value increase into my cost justification as well. |
but Grant....
you forget the title of this thread.
it wasn't:
4 versus 6
in fact it I'll quote the question:
" So for you guys that throw out low total conversion prices please tell us how you did it and how you cut costs. Often I see references to exceptional deals on engines that can't be easily reproduced or incomplete parts lists that don't include all the parts or headers/exhaust"
to which I answer...
those prices thrown around are the exception and not the norm. The are achieved by thrifty spending, luck, patience, and by investing sweat equity. The average person will not be able to replicate that price and will usually spend more money than 4K.
brant
Posted by: Mueller Feb 23 2006, 05:07 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Feb 23 2006, 09:52 AM) |
| Didn't mike Mueller sell a raby kit 2 months ago. and someone else did too about 3 months ago. both were unassembled, but I'll bet you that they sold for a fraction of what they cost new.... |
yep, sold my Raby kit, didn't take that much of beating since it was easy to prove the parts are new and buyer knew what I paid for the parts.....wouldn't matter if I had been building a /6, people still wouldn't want to pay full retail price from a private party.......
as to taking a "loss" on your rebuilt /4, same thing would happen with a rebuilt /6...i
still don't know why how this turned into a /4 bashing session for Grant...guess he'll be diss'n all us /4 owners pretty soon cause "we're not worthy" hahahaha
Posted by: flesburg Feb 23 2006, 05:41 PM
Hello,
Johnman is going through a conversion now, and it somewhat replicates what we did earlier, during the winter of 90-91.
At that time I found a 43K mile complete 3.2 engine, control panel through flywheel from Oklahoma salvage for $6500. That was a reasonably good price at the time, and for a 43K mile engine. It still had cosmoline on the case...
We did a lot of the work...a lot. And I bought a lot of parts, sheet metal, oil cooler, tank etc. But for example, John completely rebuilt the wiring harness using the 87 carrera prints and the 914 prints. I would hate to even guess what that would have cost, but there was not one un-needed wire left when he finished with it. I could have never done that job.
Not counting our labor at all I spent 12K on the conversion. 12 years later we put a 915 trans in the car with a quaife, and I spent another 9k. Trans, shifter kit, and axles, clutch and flywheel.. 21K with a 3.2 and a 915.
But I cannot think of a nicer car I could have for 16 years than this conversion...It still runs great, and has cost about $1200 per year, and it will still run with the medium size dogs, such as a BoxterS at Heartland park. Sorry it will not keep up with a viper tho, but it cost 20% of a house less than a Viper.
Engine and all, I think anything less that what I spent is just "better luck than I ever have" .
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 23 2006, 05:56 PM
I take it Grant's pissed of at Jake Raby for some reason?
| QUOTE |
| Friends don’t let friends buy Massive Fours |
Posted by: brant Feb 23 2006, 06:11 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 23 2006, 04:07 PM) |
| as to taking a "loss" on your rebuilt /4, same thing would happen with a rebuilt /6...i |
Mike that is so true...
In fact I just realized that I'm living proof.
In the -6 world, Henry Schmidt is kinda a guru.
He is kinda like the "Jake" of the -6 motor world.
In fact he build my -6, but I bought it not directly from him but rather from a guy who had it built and never used it.
so I got a good deal.
In fact I got it at 50% of its value, even though it never was started, never installed, and never even had oil poured into it.
but If I was the guy that paid Henry full price to build it then I would have taken a heavy loss....
brant
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 23 2006, 06:14 PM
I'm sorry.
Maybe I misunderstood what this thread is all about.
Perhaps I don't belong in this thread.
When I started my current conversion, I didn't even have a "budget". My conversion started shortly after I started getting quoted prices to rebuild a stock D-Jet 2.0. I was starting with a known good and fully functional D-Jet system and a fairly low mile core 2.0. I was needing the heads to be totally rebuilt. (Len Hoffman quoted a lot of money to do the work, and I feel fairly sure that it would have been done right, but I have no true experience with him or his company.) I was needing to have the case checked out and fitted with new bearings, a new cam (the old one had big flat spots), and the crank and rods R&R'ed. When the prices for materials and labor (no assembly) got to be higher than $5000.00 for a 4-cylinder which was never my long term goal, my wife asked why I don't put that money toward a 6-cyl (which had been my long term goal for quite some time).
When my wife made that statement, I jumped at the opportunity. I had no fixed budget, but I knew I wanted the best engine and latest engine that I could afford at the time. I knew I would be fabricating everything that I could to save cost.
I simply didn't plan on a fixed budget. So perhaps I don't really belong in this thread.
If I was to advise someone else how much it COSTS to do a /6 conversion, I would tell them anywhere from about $6,000 up. If they do all the work, and they are resourceful and patient, they could come close to this number. If on the other hand, they drop the car off at a professional shop (I won't name names), stand back and open your wallet.........
It's kind of like buying a yacht. (If you have to ask, you don't have enough money).
THIS IS NOT and I repeat NOT AN INVESTMENT (unless you like crappy returns on your money). These cars are toys at best. (just don't tell my wife even if she already knows)
Posted by: anthony Feb 23 2006, 08:48 PM
John, your input is valued. I started this thread because in the 4 vs. 6 topics we've had recently one of the frequent arguements is that 'one can do a six conversion for $4,000 so why bother with a more expensive four'.
We have a known set of parts required to do a six conversion. Those parts list for about $4500 (not including the cost of the engine). I honestly wanted to know how one shaves the costs. I think this has turned out to be a good topic since I've learned a few things.
So, if (big if IMO) one can fabricate their own tin, weld their own oil cooler mod, weld the shift rod mod, build their own linkage kit, and make their own oil lines they could reasonably shave $1500 off the $4500 over the counter price tag of the conversion parts. That still leaves $3K plus the cost of the engine plus labor. Timo suggested making his own headers and bulkhead mount but I think that is probably unrealistic for most club members contemplating a six.
Out of the 776 people that have viewed the topic only one has done the $4000 conversion and the other is on his way. In both cases it took a way below market deal on an engine and key conversion parts.
I think the conclusion here is that one can reasonably do a six conversion for $3500-4500 plus the cost of the engine. Much less with killer deals and more fabrication. The flip side is that the costs can skyrocket if that inexpensive six cylinder engine turns out to be a dud. That's one thing that people often forget to mention.
Posted by: anthony Feb 23 2006, 08:56 PM
And this topic wasn't meant to be another 4 vs. 6 topic. Both routes IMO have their merits.
I think it will be a good reference for people contemplating a conversion and seeing how much it reasonbly costs. It will also give people clues as to where they can shave costs.
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 23 2006, 09:02 PM
I think you're about right on the money.
IMO if your under 140hp you may as well stick with the /4
140 to 180hp it's a crap shoot.
180+hp go for the /6
In the end it's what you want.
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 23 2006, 09:10 PM
You can't beat the sweet sound of a Porsche flat 6 when it's on it's cams.....
I did my own mount. It's the one my dad and I discussed a couple years after I did his car. It is surprisingly similar to the RJ mount, but the concept is at least 12 years old. I still have my original pencil sketches.
You will have to look at my BLOG for details. I should be welding the mounts in either this weekend (02/25/06) or next (03/04/06).
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Posted by: Dr Evil Feb 23 2006, 09:18 PM
Tin has a few options. $400 fro the metal, $100 from Root Works (back yard Bob. I have a set for sale), $150 for the fiberglass repros.
Lines are not all that expensive. Check out Mittle motor. They are in Germany and have many things for low $$$. You will need to order enough to make it worht while as shipping is $50.
Tanks are around from $350-600 last I checked.
You can get a 7R case 2.7 with CIS for less than most /6 motors as they are not the most desireable. Drive on it for a while and then upgrade if you see fit. About 165 with CIS and 200 or so carbed. CIS gets you about 30mpg, carbs 15-18.
Flywheels are about $150 used from most places that I looked at that were privat party.
Scan ebay.
I was given a tired engine for free (thanks James). Lucky me it was timeserted, but I tore it down completely and took it to a shop for evaluation.
I only spent about $1800 total on the rebuild as I did the lower half my self less machine work (which was not needed).
Oil coolers can be modified for cheap if ou know people. The guy who rebuilt the rest of my engine did my oil cooler for $10. I can give you the contact in San Diego if you want to look into it.
Just some #s to give you more scope.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 24 2006, 12:24 AM
Great idea to start a thread like this
The very much desired SIX conversion is well within reach.
KT
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