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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ 4 verses 5 lug question
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 8 2006, 03:00 PM
OK here is where I'm at. Just about finished with the six conversion. Now I have to think about wheels, brakes, etc.
My current 4 lug set up is great. Brakes are newly rebuilt, rotors in good shape and Porterfield pads on all 4 corners. I have killer 9.85 lb 15x8" 4 lug wheels with Hoosiers.
I will likely do 8-10 AX and 3-5 track days this year.
Should I bite the bullet and do a 5 lug conversion and buy 5 lug wheels with proper backspace? I have the fender flares, rocker panels to do a GT body.
Trekkor seems to be doing well with his 4 lug setup under the narrow body and hasnt reported any signficant issues.
Posted by: Root_Werks Mar 8 2006, 03:05 PM
Wider track, bigger brakes is always better. But if you do go wider, don't you loose a little in agility? Is it quicker to change the direction of a non-flared 914 than a flared 914?
I would say if you have the flares and even rims to start with, that's half of it right there. I would go bigger, you can never have too much braking power. 
Posted by: D'Fuzz Mar 8 2006, 03:08 PM
Is there no way to upgrade the brakes and still stay 4-lug?
Posted by: 914fan Mar 8 2006, 03:22 PM
there are volvo or bmw calipers you can go to on the front.
I personally would go to the 911 front 5 lug. Your car was built stock with the brakes that are now on it. Your can is NOT stock. It is better to have too much brake, then not enough. But hey its your life.
Oh yeah there is someone that made a setup retaining the 4 lig (i believe) and used larger brakes. Or was that 5 lug with factory brakes, or something. Was it Muler?
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 8 2006, 03:26 PM
Grant, I would keep it like it is till you can evaluate the need or not for more braking.
I doubt you will ever need more braking for Autocross.
Track days well maybe.. But then your car is still going to be light even with a six. As you know wheel wieght makes a big difference in braking.
Posted by: jhadler Mar 8 2006, 03:33 PM
Grant,
What wheels do you have? <10 lbs is really light for a 15x8. As for changing what's under the car? Well, the stock brakes are probably gonna be plenty fine for autox most likely. Track stuff might need more stopping hardware though.
If you've already got the killer wheels and suspension setup, stick with it. All you'll need to do is tweak the alignment and suspension settings to accomodate the power and weight gains from the six.
There are lots of options to go with for improving the brakes and keeping 4-lugs. The simple ones are going with bigger calipers up front (Volvo/BMW), But for really big changes? Most of them involve really big bucks. Like custom hubs with stoptech brakes and the like.
But if you decide to go five lug, can I have dibs on those wheels? 
-Josh2
Posted by: Mueller Mar 8 2006, 03:36 PM
| QUOTE (914fan @ Mar 8 2006, 02:22 PM) |
| there are volvo or bmw calipers you can go to on the front. I personally would go to the 911 front 5 lug. Your car was built stock with the brakes that are now on it. Your can is NOT stock. It is better to have too much brake, then not enough. But hey its your life. Oh yeah there is someone that made a setup retaining the 4 lig (i believe) and used larger brakes. Or was that 5 lug with factory brakes, or something. Was it Muler? |
Yes, the http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ecCatalog&PHPSESSID=8aba68846287d112b40d739b3e8dedbf allow one to use 911 vented rotors along with the 911 M calipers....these have been proven to provide outstanding braking on John Rogers 200+hp /6 conversion vintage race car.
for auto-x (right now), personally I'd just use what you have...until you find that the current brakes cannot deal with the heat, then make your decision.....any idea what you'd sell those rims for??
Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 8 2006, 03:50 PM
If I had a 2.4 I would 'eventually' move to M-Calipers and V-Calipers but for now and for what you're doing... I'd have to agree with the guy that said this:
| QUOTE |
| personally I'd just use what you have...until you find that the current brakes cannot deal with the heat, then make your decision..... |
914 brakes are damn good brakes and if it's just autocrossing for short stints you should be fine. Fine enough to analyze what's going on and make your own educated decision for next season. You could then go 5 or even stay 4 with the Club Hubs. You've got choices.
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 8 2006, 04:10 PM
| QUOTE (jhadler @ Mar 8 2006, 01:33 PM) |
| Grant, What wheels do you have? <10 lbs is really light for a 15x8. As for changing what's under the car? Well, the stock brakes are probably gonna be plenty fine for autox most likely. Track stuff might need more stopping hardware though. If you've already got the killer wheels and suspension setup, stick with it. All you'll need to do is tweak the alignment and suspension settings to accomodate the power and weight gains from the six. There are lots of options to go with for improving the brakes and keeping 4-lugs. The simple ones are going with bigger calipers up front (Volvo/BMW), But for really big changes? Most of them involve really big bucks. Like custom hubs with stoptech brakes and the like. But if you decide to go five lug, can I have dibs on those wheels? :) -Josh2 |
Custom made Keizer wheels. And yes they are silly light.
and they fit quite nicely under my slightly rolled fenders.
My car weighs less than a stock 4 too.
Posted by: lapuwali Mar 8 2006, 04:17 PM
Most 5-lug setups weigh more, and it's mostly unsprung. Bigger brakes definitely weigh more, and again, all unsprung.
Stick with what you have until you prove it's inadequate. Too many people jump on the bigger brakes, more tire bandwagon long before they really need to.
Posted by: brant Mar 8 2006, 05:09 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Mar 8 2006, 03:10 PM) |
| My car weighs less than a stock 4 too. |
Grant...
I'm dying here..
when are you going to get us a new total weight with that new driveline?
(get it on some corner scales please and not truck scales)
signed:
anxiously waiting
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 8 2006, 06:15 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Mar 8 2006, 03:09 PM) |
| Grant... I'm dying here.. when are you going to get us a new total weight with that new driveline? (get it on some corner scales please and not truck scales) signed: anxiously waiting |
Do you think its heavier than a stock 74? I easily have 150 lbs of crap I have stripped from the car. It doesnt have a roll cage, has lightweight fiberglass hood, trunk, bumpers, doesnt have headlight motors, trunk springs, etc, some unneccesary sheet metal removed, door bars removed, lightened engine lid, all 4 lug hubs with very lightweight wheels. all tar removed, no external oil cooler or lines. It has headers and a light weight muffler.
The only difference with my six conversion currently is the engine and the aluminum oil tank.
Of course this will change when I put a proper cage in and it gets warm enough for me to spring for the oil cooler. 5 lug will add even more if I go that route.
Posted by: D'Fuzz Mar 8 2006, 08:45 PM
Does Outlaw or Wilwood make aftermarket calipers &/or rotors for 914's? Cool car BTW. Is it still going to be street legal or just a racer?
Posted by: brant Mar 8 2006, 08:58 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Mar 8 2006, 05:15 PM) | ||
Do you think its heavier than a stock 74? I easily have 150 lbs of crap I have stripped from the car. It doesnt have a roll cage, has lightweight fiberglass hood, trunk, bumpers, doesnt have headlight motors, trunk springs, etc, some unneccesary sheet metal removed, door bars removed, lightened engine lid, all 4 lug hubs with very lightweight wheels. all tar removed, no external oil cooler or lines. It has headers and a light weight muffler. The only difference with my six conversion currently is the engine and the aluminum oil tank. Of course this will change when I put a proper cage in and it gets warm enough for me to spring for the oil cooler. 5 lug will add even more if I go that route. |
I'm actually curious..
not even busting on you.
just want to know as another point of reference.
(I'm certain your lighter than a stock 74... just want to know how much lighter)
brant
Posted by: trekkor Mar 8 2006, 09:28 PM
Stay four lug.
I have exactly the same set-up as you and it is plenty.
KT
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 8 2006, 10:58 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Mar 8 2006, 07:28 PM) |
| Stay four lug. I have exactly the same set-up as you and it is plenty. KT |
I'll stay 4 lug short term. I do have plans now to go to 5 lug. I know I'll want more brakes and bigger tires under the car when I get more seat time. I heard the engine today and it scares me - I didnt know a 2.4 could sound so mean!
Have my cage from Stable Energies on the way. Got a good quote for body work, fenders and repaint. I'm going for Gulf Oil paint scheme (Blue with Orange stripes).
Posted by: brant Mar 8 2006, 11:27 PM
Grant,
did you ever corner scale the car with the -4
what was the starting weight.
my buddy in colorado had a nice gulf car of the same robin's egg color with the same orange stripes.
it was a conversion 2.7 with glass flares too.
it was a PCA CR car
he sold it about 2 years ago through this very club.
If you want me to email him I'll solicit old pictures.
so what did the car weigh before and when are you going to get some after weights?
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 8 2006, 11:52 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Mar 8 2006, 09:27 PM) |
| Grant, did you ever corner scale the car with the -4 what was the starting weight. my buddy in colorado had a nice gulf car of the same robin's egg color with the same orange stripes. it was a conversion 2.7 with glass flares too. it was a PCA CR car he sold it about 2 years ago through this very club. If you want me to email him I'll solicit old pictures. so what did the car weigh before and when are you going to get some after weights? |
I did corner balance before I got real serious about weight reduction and the car was at 1965lbs. Never weighed it at stock weight.
I'd love to see pictures of other 914's with Gulf paint scheme.
Posted by: Mueller Mar 9 2006, 09:32 AM
| QUOTE (D'Fuzz @ Mar 8 2006, 07:45 PM) |
| Does Outlaw or Wilwood make aftermarket calipers &/or rotors for 914's? Cool car BTW. Is it still going to be street legal or just a racer? |
yes and no.....yes if you have the 3.5" bolt pattern (only for 911 struts, '83 and newer or something like that) or yes if you get the radial mount and make adapters..... end hyjack Grant,
mind sharing the paint qoute?? ....my mother-in-law is getting her old Mercedes diesel repainted and got a quote of $2900 for a full bare metal strip and repaint to factory gold at a shop in Concord....sounds like a good deal to me.....I'm going to take the 914 to the same shop and get a qoute as well...should be cheaper I hope....
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 9 2006, 10:52 AM
Mine would be a package deal which would include proper fiberglass fitment of hoods, bumpers spoiler, fender install, body damage repair, making top smooth and full respray for $4500.
Posted by: brant Mar 9 2006, 05:31 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Mar 8 2006, 10:52 PM) | ||
I did corner balance before I got real serious about weight reduction and the car was at 1965lbs. Never weighed it at stock weight. I'd love to see pictures of other 914's with Gulf paint scheme. |
I bugged him for pictures...
will share as soon as I receive.
brant
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