Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Metal questions

Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2006, 10:06 AM

Hey all,
I am in the process of getting materials for my, ahem, "art project" (914). I want to have some aluminum that has the brushed look to it. I ordered some 6061 and am not sure if it will have this finish. Is it easy to produce?

Also, I am looking into getting some parts coated. I have heard that black chrome is what I am looking for based on my desire to have the character of the aluminum visible through the dark gloss coating. If this is not what I am looking for could someone point me in the right direction? Also a place to have it done would be welcomed.

Next, I am gonna start using my mini lathe. I have the concept down as to how, but have never used one (so I bought extra stock). My question for the lathe is, how do you make domed shapes? Like if you took the end of a rod and domed it.

Thanks

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 10:19 AM

1st off...have you seen this site for Mini-lathes?

http://www.mini-lathe.com/Default.htm

For turning a nice radi at the end of a part, check out this site:

http://bedair.org/Ball/ball.html

Posted by: smdubovsky Mar 14 2006, 10:21 AM

Aluminum will not come brushed. Its usually in raw extruded form. You will have to sand/polish it that way - try w/ sandpaper or wire brush on a lathe (IMPORTANT: COVER the ways to keep falling grit out!) or using a gray roloc disk in a die grinder for more artistic control. Or, "stroke it" w/ sandpaper to get the brushing lengthwise.

To do a dome/ball on a lathe takes a ball cutting attachment;) Its a swivel for the cutting tool that allows you to swing the cutter about a center. I've never seen a commercial one (but surely they exist), but the 9x20 yahoo lathe group has plans to make your own. If you find an inexpensive one to buy let me know... (I dont need it ENOUGH to actually go build one.)

SMD

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 10:21 AM

brushed finish can be made with a belt sander..........

have an example of the black chrome finish??

Posted by: bondo Mar 14 2006, 11:03 AM

Never seen black chrome on aluminum. Perhaps a smoked clear powdercoat will give the look you desire. There's also a black chrome powdercoat, but it's totally opaque and won't show any brushed finish underneath.

I'm particularly interested in the machining talk because I'm considering getting a Smithy 3 in 1 setup. Machining is fun, and I'd like to be able to do it at home.

Posted by: East coaster Mar 14 2006, 11:05 AM

I used scotch bright and kerosene to put a brushed finish on my instrument panel on my plane. Use even/directional strokes and the end result is pretty good. I then had it anodized. I don't know if that will work for your black finish, but it may be worth investigating??

Here's a pic of the panel. It's kinda hard to make out the brushed finish, but it's there.

Attached image(s)

Posted by: ppickerell Mar 14 2006, 11:34 AM

You can have sheet material run through a timesaver which is a 4 ft wide sanding belt that will put a nice consistent grain. The trouble with hand held is you can get an oscillated finish (orbital) but it will be real tough to do grain and keep it straight free hand. For black, I would recommend anodize as the best process.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 11:37 AM

QUOTE (ppickerell @ Mar 14 2006, 10:34 AM)
You can have sheet material run through a timesaver which is a 4 ft wide sanding belt that will put a nice consistent grain. The trouble with hand held is you can get an oscillated finish (orbital) but it will be real tough to do grain and keep it straight free hand. For black, I would recommend anodize as the best process.

if you do go the route of sending out the parts to be "brushed", make darn sure you mark the direction with a big old arrow......it's not always obvious which direction you want the brush

Posted by: McMark Mar 14 2006, 11:37 AM

I have some "smoke" dye for my anodizing kit. I've never used it, but it's described as looking just like what your described.

Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2006, 12:12 PM

Thanks guys. A lot of great info. East Coaster, that is the under look I am going for. I will try the scotch brite method first (that is why sheets come with two sides )

Mark,
If it can be seen through and is dark and glossy then yup, thats it.

I don't have the time, place or money to buy a kit to do it, though. Does anyone know of a place that can do this on a small scale?

Posted by: spunone Mar 14 2006, 12:16 PM

If your just doming the end of a rod just get use to turning both handles to get a ruff formed shape then use a file to finish the shape sand and polish .remember it's Art. rocking nana.gif

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 12:20 PM

QUOTE (spunone @ Mar 14 2006, 11:16 AM)
If your just doming the end of a rod just get use to turning both handles to get a ruff formed shape then use a file to finish the shape sand and polish .remember it's Art. rocking nana.gif

that is why they invented CNC

when you go down that path, let me know, I've got some small stepper motors I'll give you.....you should be able to convert that lathe for less than a few hundred bucks total....

Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2006, 12:24 PM

Spunone,
that is more up my alley I was wondering if that was possible (remember, I am a novice).

I found a few links to ball turingin posts for my 7x12 lathe

like this one:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1970

Mike,
thanks for the links.

Posted by: alpha434 Mar 14 2006, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Mar 14 2006, 10:12 AM)
Thanks guys. A lot of great info. East Coaster, that is the under look I am going for. I will try the scotch brite method first (that is why sheets come with two sides )

Mark,
If it can be seen through and is dark and glossy then yup, thats it.

I don't have the time, place or money to buy a kit to do it, though. Does anyone know of a place that can do this on a small scale?

They make a "polishing" pad. It's a piece of scotch brite affixed to a plate. You put the assembly into a mill of drill press. And it makes circles where you polish.

It looks pretty cool, but really busy. <- opinion

But you can slide the sheet underneath it to get the desired results, more or less.

Annodizing is an electro-finish. And you CAN make your own setup for little to no cash. It's dangerous. PM me if you want directions. I made one of these setups when I was 14.

Good luck, dude. Art is cool.

Posted by: alpha434 Mar 14 2006, 12:32 PM

And when I was in school, we were always told to put radii on with a file. It wakes a long time for a ball. Make sure you've got a handle on the file, because if the part grabs it, it can push the sharp side right down the length of your forearm. But roughing it out is really easy. The assembly for making a "ball cutter" takes a lot of time and effort and a mill. I made one at school, and it's on display there still. Next time I'm over there, I'll snap a photo of it.

Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2006, 12:37 PM

Chris,
I don't want to anodize because it will not give me the finished look that I am looking for. It seems like I am looking for powder coating instead. Thanks for the offer of assistance, though. For the brushed look I am going for uniformed grain in one direction, not swirls (I agree, too busy). A board with a scotch pad should suffice and is a good suggestion for providing a more uniform look.

Thanks

Mike,
only $100 or so!? Thats funny Thats like saying I got 50% off of something that cost $1M...its still $500K and out of my reach currently What mini motors? For like setting up a powered polishing set up? I have a geared one on mine. Is electric better?

Posted by: alpha434 Mar 14 2006, 12:45 PM

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Mar 14 2006, 10:37 AM)
Chris,
I don't want to anodize because it will not give me the finished look that I am looking for. It seems like I am looking for powder coating instead. Thanks for the offer of assistance, though. For the brushed look I am going for uniformed grain in one direction, not swirls (I agree, too busy). A board with a scotch pad should suffice and is a good suggestion for providing a more uniform look.

Thanks

Mike,
only $100 or so!? Thats funny Thats like saying I got 50% off of something that cost $1M...its still $500K and out of my reach currently What mini motors? For like setting up a powered polishing set up? I have a geared one on mine. Is electric better?

He wants you to convert your lathe to cnc. Which may cost a few hundred, if you've done it before. But it is also a PITA!!!

Powder coating is fairly cheap.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 12:47 PM

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Mar 14 2006, 11:37 AM)
Chris,
I don't want to anodize because it will not give me the finished look that I am looking for. It seems like I am looking for powder coating instead. Thanks for the offer of assistance, though. For the brushed look I am going for uniformed grain in one direction, not swirls (I agree, too busy). A board with a scotch pad should suffice and is a good suggestion for providing a more uniform look.

Thanks

Mike,
only $100 or so!? Thats funny Thats like saying I got 50% off of something that cost $1M...its still $500K and out of my reach currently What mini motors? For like setting up a powered polishing set up? I have a geared one on mine. Is electric better?

nope, the stepper motors take input from your PC and basicly "automates" the lathe..you tell it to move .50" side to side and .125" back to back and it'll do it for, you just sit back and watch......not something that is often needed for the hobbiest, it just makes making duplicates easier or for making difficult radi cuts and angles....

Posted by: East coaster Mar 14 2006, 03:58 PM

Powder coating will fill any brushed texture you achieve. I had all my anodizing done Hillcock Anodizing in Phila, PA. They are located just under the Tacony-Palmyra bridge and can do amazing finishes. You might want to check with them and see if they have a finish that will give you the look you want. They charge by the batch and you can add parts to make it worthwhile. I would imagine a few folks would be interested in having items anodized black. I might even have some items to add if you need to offset cost??

Sorry, I don't have their phone#, but they're local to you...right??

Posted by: stock93 Mar 14 2006, 04:57 PM

Mueller,
What program are you using to drive the stepper motors? Where can I find out more on this? I'm interested in doing this myself eventually.

John

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (stock93 @ Mar 14 2006, 03:57 PM)
Mueller,
What program are you using to drive the stepper motors? Where can I find out more on this? I'm interested in doing this myself eventually.

John

Currently I am using http://www.dakeng.com/turbo.html, it's a DOS program that works fairly well.....

Sooner or later I'll be switching over to http://www.artofcnc.ca/index.html(really in addition to, for another mill of mine)

I use BobCAD for generating the codes, BobCAD can also draw the part, but I find using Pro/E and SolidWorks easier

Posted by: stock93 Mar 14 2006, 05:44 PM

Cool. Thanks Mueller. Now I just have to get my own lathe and mill.

John

Posted by: spunone Mar 14 2006, 06:49 PM

Doc the file you can use is similar to a bondo file removes alum quick so hang on. Heh Mike whats wrong with still being in the stone age this is kind of like what I do for a living LOL

Posted by: jkeyzer Mar 14 2006, 06:54 PM

I have been able to get a great brushed finish just by using a 4" belt sander with fairly coarse sandpaper. It only takes a few seconds but I guess large sheets would be difficult. I was doing 3" Al blocks.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 07:13 PM

QUOTE (spunone @ Mar 14 2006, 05:49 PM)
Doc the file you can use is similar to a bondo file removes alum quick so hang on. Heh Mike whats wrong with still being in the stone age this is kind of like what I do for a living LOL

my good lathe is still manual

in fact I have a new product I'd like to make (made one) but cutting the threads is a PITA so I'm trying like mad to get my other small lathe converted to CNC to save some cranking of the handwheels....

Posted by: Sideways Mar 14 2006, 07:31 PM

Check out Columbia Coatings for the "Black Chrome" look.

http://www.columbiacoatings.com/1152andupt45676ty78yj789345erfrg5467.htm

Posted by: spunone Mar 14 2006, 07:33 PM

I hear that we do metal spinnig by hand for most jobs but I also have a CNC lathe for production so as not to wear out me and the fellas. Coverting sounds like a great idea see as if ya job it out there goes the price

Posted by: Mueller Mar 14 2006, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (spunone @ Mar 14 2006, 06:33 PM)
I hear that we do metal spinnig by hand for most jobs but I also have a CNC lathe for production so as not to wear out me and the fellas. Coverting sounds like a great idea see as if ya job it out there goes the price

you do metal spinning???

that is something I want to try so I can make my own air horns for my throttle bodies......I have an instructional DVD as well as this I found on the web: http://prl.stanford.edu/documents/pdf/spinning.pdf

when I first started at this company, one of the parts I needed to qualify a machine shop for was a spun alum part for one of the big semiconductor manufactures...being a newbie, I was totally blown away to see such an old school method being used to make parts for a multi-million dollar tool....it's neat to see those guys with the 6 foot long poles "working" the metal.....

Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2006, 07:55 PM

Mike,
I get it now, CNC sounds very nice. Maybe this summer when I am on break.

As for anodizing, I am not too thrilled by the look for what I am going to use it for. I used to work with an anodizer quite a bit in a previous life, so I have some back ground.

You can powder coat with clear or a tinted clear like what I am looking for and it will not fill in the finish, unless I am mistaken. I am not talking about solids, rather smokey clears.

Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2006, 07:59 PM

Steven,
I looked at columbia already, but I can not get a good enough shot that shows the fine details. I guess I will call them and ask.
thanks

Posted by: Sideways Mar 14 2006, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Mar 14 2006, 06:59 PM)
Steven,
I looked at columbia already, but I can not get a good enough shot that shows the fine details. I guess I will call them and ask.
thanks

Mike,

I had some Black Chrome wheels on my Jetta for a while and the finish looks very like the letterbox (I think that's waht it is) on the link I gave you..

Good Luck.

Posted by: spunone Mar 14 2006, 09:06 PM

One more thing Doc may want to check with the PC fellas on the finish have seen some coatings totaly fill in the satin finish if not to deep. Mueller ya got a PM

Posted by: alpha434 Mar 15 2006, 12:54 AM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Mar 14 2006, 03:25 PM)

QUOTE (stock93 @ Mar 14 2006, 03:57 PM)
Mueller,
What program are you using to drive the stepper motors? Where can I find out more on this? I'm interested in doing this myself eventually.

John

Currently I am using http://www.dakeng.com/turbo.html, it's a DOS program that works fairly well.....

Sooner or later I'll be switching over to http://www.artofcnc.ca/index.html(really in addition to, for another mill of mine)

I use BobCAD for generating the codes, BobCAD can also draw the part, but I find using Pro/E and SolidWorks easier

DeltaCad is also really easy to use/ setup. And when you get really high end, you'll want MasterCam or GibbsCam for writing your NC programs AND one of the aforementioned programs to implement it.

AND HOLY JEEZE. Metal spinning is really a dying art. I'm glad there are still people who know it. Ive been fiddling with it, trial and error. I do ok, but I can't find anyone who actually knows it to teach me.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 15 2006, 01:06 AM

QUOTE (alpha434 @ Mar 14 2006, 11:54 PM)
you get really high end, you'll want MasterCam or GibbsCam for writing your NC programs AND one of the aforementioned programs to implement it.

I've played with a "demo" version of MasterCam, awesome software.....for me it;s a hobby so I don't plan on spending the $15,000 or so they want for it.....neat stuff, but thats for the pro shops making big bucks everyday, not for someone who's shop is only 8 feet x 16 feet

Posted by: alpha434 Mar 15 2006, 01:41 AM

MasterCam costs $125 for a periphial version. I have versions 9 and 10 in full, with all the extra features. The full version of 9 costed me 400$ and 10 was only a 75$ upgrade fee, since my 9 was under warranty. Gibbscam starts at 800 for the full version. I have the student version of it, and that was given to me by one of their company representitives.