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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Mueller Idea HIJACK... CO-OP Metal Shop

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Mar 15 2006, 12:19 AM

Mueller mentioned the idea of a Co-op for pro-level tools not needed often enough to justify buying them yourself. Here's an example of a Woodshop "Co-op"... maybe this would work as a model for regional

914club Metal shops??

We ALL need the resources.. what about it??

http://www.sawdustshop.com/index.asp

Posted by: Mueller Mar 15 2006, 12:48 AM

that is pretty neat.....

Posted by: lotus_65 Mar 15 2006, 06:13 AM

i used to work on my spitfire at a co-op garage in ann arbor back in the 70's. very cool, hourly bay charge, tool checkout (no charge there), free advice (not all good...), very cool.

long gone. probably insurance issues.

Posted by: Eddie Williams Mar 15 2006, 07:46 AM

I've also thought the same thing, but with an auto shop.

Posted by: drewvw Mar 15 2006, 07:56 AM

A couple of my buddies around here are talking about doing something similar. Renting out a warehouse in one of the more rundown areas and starting up a co-op type scene.

Seems like one of things you'd love to be a part of, but for the guys running the show its a lot of time and energy.

Posted by: Randal Mar 15 2006, 08:59 AM

Can you actually insure a machine shop that will be used by inexperienced people?

Can a waiver be written tight enough to protect who ever sets this up?

Posted by: lotus_65 Mar 15 2006, 10:24 AM

QUOTE (Randal @ Mar 15 2006, 09:59 AM)
Can you actually insure a machine shop that will be used by inexperienced people?

Can a waiver be written tight enough to protect who ever sets this up?

that's what i wonder. high- and tech schools do it, maybe there's some info down that road.

maybe also ask the people who run the saw dust shop. of all the places to loose fingers, that's one! they must be pretty well covered.

Posted by: jonwatts Mar 15 2006, 10:44 AM

Not to rain on anyone's parade (except Mueller's) but I think this was just tried withing the last year with Brad's shop space in Redwood City. The problem came down to money and committment. Someone had to sign the lease and that person couldn't cover the cost alone; and he couldn't get enough committment from others to know that he wouldn't be left having to foot the bill.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 15 2006, 10:59 AM

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Mar 15 2006, 09:44 AM)
Not to rain on anyone's parade (except Mueller's) but I think this was just tried withing the last year with Brad's shop space in Redwood City. The problem came down to money and committment. Someone had to sign the lease and that person couldn't cover the cost alone; and he couldn't get enough committment from others to know that he wouldn't be left having to foot the bill.

I think the main issue was the "city"....that area was zoned for auto/light industrial for years.....the "city" wanted to re-zone it for condos

the guy that owned the vacant lot across the street had some major clout and was pushing his own agenda for $$$$$$$$

Posted by: jonwatts Mar 15 2006, 11:01 AM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Mar 15 2006, 08:59 AM)
I think the main issue was the "city"....that area was zoned for auto/light industrial for years.....the "city" wanted to re-zone it for condos

the guy that owned the vacant lot across the street had some major clout and was pushing his own agenda for $$$$$$$$

I think you're thinking of the Palo Alto shop. I'm talking about Brad's shop space next door to HPH.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 15 2006, 11:14 AM

oh "that" one......to me that was just a place to work on cars...the Palo Alto shop was to have a full metal fabrication setup with mill/lathe, welders and with the hopes that there would always be somebody on "staff" that could use it and help people out with thier projects...

Posted by: jonwatts Mar 15 2006, 11:46 AM

Right, that was idea 1, and we couldn't even pull off idea 2, a place to just work on our collective crap

Posted by: newto914s Mar 15 2006, 02:02 PM

I think to make something like this accually roll you would need to tap into the whole car restoration community. You get some backing from some of the local clubs and then the ball won't fall into any one persons lap. Like offer sponcership to your local PCA and give their members a discount on space, do the same to the MG guys and so on, and that way you have a couple of large groups that have interest in keeping it afloat.
Or just keep it a local PCA shop and have them hold the lease(they might ban us though )
Their are a lot of way to make this idea work, esspecially if you already have a suitable space.
You could even run an ad in your fav mag, "looking for investors to start a non-profit(or not) restoration garage in "_______"

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Mar 15 2006, 02:17 PM

As far as financial risk for the lease holder... looks like this his how Sawdust shop insures steady income:

Membership Options
Unlimited Membership
Monthly dues $85
Unlimited access during all shop hours
12 month min. commitment

Off-peak Membership
Monthly dues $55
Access Tue-Fri 10am-5pm only
12 month min. commitment

6 Month Membership
One-time initiation fee $195
Monthly dues $85
Unlimited access during all shop hours
6 month min. commitment

30-day Membership
Membership Dues $260
Unlimited access during all shop hours
30 consecutive calendar days

Block Time
10 Hours $200
Unlimited access during all shop hours

Just to ballpark some numbers:

$3000/month rent + liability Insurance would take 36 guys at $85/month to cover it

(numbers pulled out of the sky)

There is of course upkeep on the machinery, and the guy running it needs some compensation.

I'm guessing the Sawdust Shop really leans on the "Shop"ping part of there setup where people buy tools and raw materials.

Of course another way to do this is get an old U-Haul 26' Van ($3500) and fill it with all the machinery bolted down and ready to run.. then just park it in front of your house. At least then there is no rent to pay.
Would need to maintain the truck and machinery, but the rental agreement is just a long version of what you sign when you go to Home Depot and rent a roto-tiller... you crash a tool, you own it...

How 'bout that?

Posted by: Moose408 Mar 16 2006, 02:54 AM

Hi all. I'm Craig and I'm the owner of The Sawdust Shop. Thought I'd drop in an answer some of the questions that have been raised.

Liability is a big issue and I actually didn't pursue the idea of opening up the shop for about 5 years because I assumed it would be too big of an issue.
I finally explored it with and found that it was manageable. The liability insurance is expensive but not outrageous. My lawyer created a great liability release that came from a bungee jumping operation and I've been told by a lot of attorneys that it is the best they have ever seen. Also as part of membership we require training on the equipment. This is supposed to also reduce our exposure in the event of an accident.

As for the financing, currently the revenues are evenly divided between memberships, classes, and retail sales. The expectations are that a couple of years down the road it will be 30/20/50. This is based on a similar business on the East Coast.

I am constantly having people come into the shop and talking about wanting to the same thing with a car garage. There was one somewhere in Mt. View supposedly and there is supposedly one in Campbell on Dell Ave that caters to old Hot rod enthusiasts.

So far it has been very well received and and business is steadily rising. I'm having a great time with it.

Let me know if you have any other questions and good luck to anybody setting up a similar model for autos.

Posted by: lotus_65 Mar 16 2006, 07:45 AM

moose408, congratulations on your dream becoming reality. co-ops are great and should be more common in my opinion. here's my problem with trying to apply it to car repairs, or restoration:

unlike a woodworking shop, a car is transitional, that is to say that unless you want to pay a bay fee for storing your repair or restoration there on site, you have to move it off the site regularly. i don't know how the work flows through the sawdust shop, but i'm sure there is a locker area for projects and personal items that are in the works.

i only have 1 recreational car to work on, and only a few hours a week to accomplish it, and really only a limited number of things i would do to it. so unless i bought, fixed, then sold, repeat. i can't imagine this maintaining a strong a membership base because if someone wanted to do that kind of repeat work, they'd have a day job at a collision company.

a wood shop, however, one could have endless projects for the home, cabin, garage, neighbor, etc. i would also imagine that some of the sawdust shops clients are artisans choosing that environment to produce their products as opposed to investing in their own shop, which makes all kinds of sense to me! having tools and consumables like a small lumber yard on site could literally make the difference for someone with more talent than cash.

an auto shop that offers long-term project space risks becoming among other things, a warehouse for people's projects that they have lost interest in. then the process of clearing the inventory becomes a colossal headache.

oops, that is too good of an idea to have it stolen, sorry.

if there was a place that you could go to, and (for example) have an expert add custom flares to your teener while saving 20-30% by adding your labor, would you do it?

pm me if you want to know more.

Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Mar 16 2006, 01:06 PM

I like the idea of a METAL SHOP but those California prices would not fly here in Oregon. An AUTO SHOP would be nice but, as mentioned before, it'd likely turn into a storage place and that is a waste of space for those who would actually be working on their car if there was space

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Mar 16 2006, 01:19 PM

The "mobile shop" would eliminate the abandoned project issues...

I think Mike's original point was to get access to expensive tools that you need only once (or once in a while). Most everyone has at least a one stall garage to do the assembly/bodywork etc.

Imagine a truck with adequate space to have:

lathe/mill setup
welder(s) and if necessary, generator to run it
bodywork tools
hydraulic press for all that suspension work
compressor (5+ HP for the ambitious painters...)
914 specific tools/fixtures (maybe an ECU tester?)
Tubing Bender
Metal Cutoff Saw
Grinders (body and bench)
Engine hoist, jackstands (better put these on the "consumable list" )
etc...
Workbenches/ Vises... blah blah blah

Liability is really inline with what tool rental place is covered for. (This actually WOULD be a tool rental "place")..

You abandon your project... no skin off anyone's nose as your car stays at your house.

You break tools.. you cough up the deposit you made as part of the rental agreement.

Fees cover Liability, maintenance/repair of tools + truck, and any materials you consume (abrasives, cutting tools, fuel for truck and compressor, etc...)

Posted by: Solo914 Mar 16 2006, 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Air_Cooled_Nut @ Mar 16 2006, 11:06 AM)
I like the idea of a METAL SHOP but those California prices would not fly here in Oregon. An AUTO SHOP would be nice but, as mentioned before, it'd likely turn into a storage place and that is a waste of space for those who would actually be working on their car if there was space

Could you get a space where there could be the possibility of storing cars? You could also charge a monthly storage fee, that way people could store there cars at the space for the duration of the project that they trying to work on while the cars is immobile. Only requirement is that the cars need to be able to moveable while at the shop, either by way of wheels or car dolly etc. This is another way make a little money in storage fees also.

Kyle

Posted by: Mueller Mar 16 2006, 01:31 PM

Otmar (914 electric conversion guru) has/had a machine shop in a panel van.....I don't think he had a generator so he had to make sure he could run a 220v extension cord. Pretty cool setup.

I've got a freind that does glass blowing, the shop rents out "time" slots to use the furnace and annealing ovens. Just like the woodworking shop, they too have a classes and a store to help generate income. For some reason I want to say they are listed as a not-for-profit, how that helps I have no idea.

At least in the Bay Area, I see a machine shop type operation working fairly well, I am a member of http://www.baemclub.com/, I know that other members like to have access to metal working equipment that they do not have at home or have no other means of getting access to them.

Posted by: boboli914@att.net Mar 16 2006, 02:01 PM

QUOTE (Brian Mifsud @ Mar 15 2006, 12:17 PM)

Of course another way to do this is get an old U-Haul 26' Van ($3500) and fill it with all the machinery bolted down and ready to run.. then just park it in front of your house. At least then there is no rent to pay.
Would need to maintain the truck and machinery, but the rental agreement is just a long version of what you sign when you go to Home Depot and rent a roto-tiller... you crash a tool, you own it...

How 'bout that?

Theres a guy down the street from me who doe's this. He has a bunch of vans with all the tools in the back. His very own wood shops on wheels. Don't know if its worth it or not, he either rents them alot for himself or is not very busy

Posted by: lapuwali Mar 16 2006, 02:06 PM

If there was a place within an hour's drive of me that had all of the following:

blasting cabinet
mill
lathe
brake
metal bandsaw
bench grinder

I'd be willing to pony up a nice monthly sum to have access to that. All of these things are big, and I haven't the space for them, esp. considering I'd only use them a few times a year. The space Andy was trying to set up awhile back was going to be just a shop with maybe a lift, and I wasn't interested. I have space to work, just not enough for machine tools AND two cars AND my stash of spares.

This wouldn't have to be a big space, just big enough for the tools and room to move around between them. Less space, in fact, helps with the problem of people using it for storage.

I'd solve any tool theft problems by simply not providing any. Things like hacksaws, tin snips, calipers, etc, should belong to the "users" of the place, not to the place itself. The big tools are all big enough that someone would have to be reasonably determined to steal them.

Liability would be a problem once the "club" got big enough, but it seems to be solvable.

Posted by: Porcharu Mar 16 2006, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Mar 16 2006, 11:31 AM)

At least in the Bay Area, I see a machine shop type operation working fairly well, I am a member of http://www.baemclub.com/, I know that other members like to have access to metal working equipment that they do not have at home or have no other means of getting access to them.

One of the members of BAEM lives on the next street over from me. Great - something else to distract me from getten r' dun.

I think a trailer with all of the goods in it would be a great idea. You could set it up and leave it for a few days. It would need to be solid and have alarms but it could be done.

Posted by: Moose408 Mar 16 2006, 02:39 PM

QUOTE (Mueller @ Mar 16 2006, 11:31 AM)
I've got a freind that does glass blowing, the shop rents out "time" slots to use the furnace and annealing ovens. Just like the woodworking shop, they too have a classes and a store to help generate income. For some reason I want to say they are listed as a not-for-profit, how that helps I have no idea.

There is a clay art center near here that is similar, they rent time in the shop, classes, and retail. They are in the process of converting to a non-profit. The reason is that they can then get grants and funding from art foundations to support their operations.

BTW where is the glass blowing studio? I used to do laboratory glass blowing and would love to find a place to do some more.

Posted by: Mueller Mar 16 2006, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Moose408 @ Mar 16 2006, 01:39 PM)
BTW where is the glass blowing studio? I used to do laboratory glass blowing and would love to find a place to do some more.

http://www.bagi.org

http://www.asmallproduction.com/ is the showcase for my buddies work...nice stuff, I have a few of his pieces at my house which always get compliments....

Attached image(s)

Posted by: Porcharu Mar 16 2006, 06:59 PM

QUOTE (Moose408 @ Mar 16 2006, 12:39 PM)
They are in the process of converting to a non-profit. The reason is that they can then get grants and funding from art foundations to support their operations.

Non-profit. Sounds like me! Could we get grants to make 914's. Maybe one from the EPA to install modern clean running 914's. I think 20-30K each car would do.

Posted by: McMark Mar 16 2006, 07:09 PM

I've always wanted to do something like this. But each work area/parking spot would cost around $250-$300 a month. The new space I'm moving in to would be great for this sort of thing.

I'd love to get some of our brainy members together and really crank out some great innovations for ours and other classic cars.

Mike Mueller for all the machine work, CAD, casting, etc.
Jeff Keyzer for all the neat electronics gizmos.
Sir Andy for the hard core computer interface stuff.
James Montebello because he knows everything.
And I'm sure there are others.

I have a lot of ideas that, with the right people in place, could really put out some kick ass stuff.

Posted by: Brian Mifsud Mar 16 2006, 07:30 PM

Well, placing a stake in the ground, I believe there is a place for my "mobile shop" here in San Diego.... and Mike's reference to the model engine builders reminded me that many "hobbyists" can use the same type of facility.

- Other car projects
- Old boat owners
- "Live Steam" model railroaders

etc.. I've been looking for some type of business to start for years. Here I have this lump of tooling and no time to use it so I'm thinking the time is right.

Time to dust off that "business plan" template and get to it.