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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ springs?!
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 17 2006, 08:59 PM
I wanted to get some 140# springs .. I bought some used ones and they seemed short and not 140#... but I wasn't sure because they were not marked
so I broke down and bought some that I knew were 140# they were marked
well I got the new ones and they are huge!
so what are the ones I got used they seem to measure out almost ident the yellow are about 1/16 th tighter coil
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Posted by: Mueller Mar 17 2006, 09:19 PM
did you just go to ebay and buy the 1st 140 springs you saw?
you can measure them if you do a search
do you have adj. perches?
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 17 2006, 09:26 PM
nope bought from a club member
Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 17 2006, 09:28 PM
you got hosed 
the 140 welts (on left) are about 1.5" shorter than stock....
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 17 2006, 09:47 PM
so are what I bought cut downs of a normal spring?.....well I guess you live and learn... 
Posted by: Andyrew Mar 18 2006, 04:45 AM
Only true way to check lb'age is to put weights on the spring till it compresses 1in.
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 18 2006, 10:06 AM
the progressives that came on my silver car didn't require spring compressors to lossen the top cap. you will def need one if you plan on installing the black ones? you wanted to originally install the yellows? measure the height of them and compare that to the spring length on an assembled rear shock setup. you may find the yellow(?) ones might work. i'm kinda confussed as to which way you want to go.
k
Posted by: itsa914 Mar 18 2006, 03:26 PM
| QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Mar 17 2006, 07:26 PM) |
| nope bought from a club member |
That would be me.
Those were on my car for the last 3 years. Only reason why they are still not on there is I went to #150 springs with adjustable peraches. I guess a PO before me somewhere cut them down to help lower the car since it didn't have adjustable pearches before now.
I can honestly say I didn't know they were cut down. A third party that did the spring swap and a few other things on my car offered to send them to Mike since he had the parts from my car.
Mike I sent you a PM. I don't want anyone unhappy with what they buy from me. I don't do business like that. So please accept this open apology. - Garold
Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 18 2006, 07:57 PM
There's an awesome way to handle a sale! 
WTG Garold 
The 140 progressives (the ones on the left) might need just a 'little' coaxing to get under the stock hat but not much in my experience.
E.
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 18 2006, 08:21 PM
gerold pm sent ....... I think i might have worded it poorly .. I really have no hard feelings about it ... I bought sight unseen with out even a picture , my bad...... I kinda figured after the fact that maybe the PO had told gerold that they were 140# and that info was just being passed along ( it would be the first time a PO made an untrue statement about a car)
the WTF was more about how much taller the welts were .. it was kinda a shock ...
not much more than that ... gerold amd I have worked it out it's all cool
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 18 2006, 08:24 PM
ok and now to seem even more of a loser... 
is right side up on the springs when you can read the print on them ? 
Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 18 2006, 08:38 PM
| QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Mar 18 2006, 07:24 PM) |
| ok and now to seem even more of a loser... is right side up on the springs when you can read the print on them ? :blink: |
does it MATTER?
a spring is a spring no matter which way you push on it....
if you are SUPER ANAL.... you could put the tightly wound side (heavy side) toward the body, as this would microscopically improve your unsprung weight.... ( i think... isnt half the shock/spring considered unsprung and the other half sprung?)
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 18 2006, 08:58 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Mar 18 2006, 06:38 PM) | ||
does it MATTER? |
I dunno that's why I am asking
Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 18 2006, 09:01 PM
| QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Mar 18 2006, 07:58 PM) | ||||
I dunno that's why I am asking |
see the answer right below those 2 words.....
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 18 2006, 09:06 PM
I didn't pick up if that was a for sure answer or an if I remember correctly answer
ok .. thanks for the help again ... it really is greatly aprciated
Posted by: McMark Mar 18 2006, 09:09 PM
I'm sure if Andy were feeling better he'd pop in here and beat on you Aaron. I can't remember which way progressives go, but do a search.
Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 18 2006, 09:10 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 18 2006, 08:09 PM) |
| I'm sure if Andy were feeling better he'd pop in here and beat on you Aaron. I can't remember which way progressives go, but do a search. |
he seems to think that running it one way it "starts at XXXX and the other way XXX "
i dont buy it... but im not a physics major....
Posted by: McMark Mar 18 2006, 09:11 PM
Here, http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=33692
Posted by: Aaron Cox Mar 18 2006, 09:13 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 18 2006, 08:11 PM) |
| Here, http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=33692 |
im with thorshammer on that one....
show me empirical data....
for now - old wives tale.....
Posted by: McMark Mar 18 2006, 09:19 PM
I think it's the standard issue of engineers looking at math and not realizing the assumption they are making. Using a spring compressor to measure spring rate IS NOT THE SAME FORCES as a spring experiences in a car. So you can't compare the two. But I have no data or experience, so I'll shut up after this post unless some asks me a question.
Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 19 2006, 12:13 AM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 18 2006, 10:19 PM) |
| I think it's the standard issue of engineers looking at math and not realizing the assumption they are making. Using a spring compressor to measure spring rate IS NOT THE SAME FORCES as a spring experiences in a car. So you can't compare the two. But I have no data or experience, so I'll shut up after this post unless some asks me a question. |
The rate of a coil spring is dependent on wire length and diameter in addition to metal composition, nothing else. When the close coils of a "progressive" spring go into coil bind the wire is effectively shortened causing a higher apparent rate. Therefore calling them "progressive" is a misnomer. They have only two distinct spring rates and there is nothing progressive about them.
What Andy experienced and what Erik described have nothing to do with the compression rate of the spring coils, only inertia. The coils at the suspension arm end of the spring are being accelerated when the arm moves. Putting the closely spaced coils at the bottom means they will slow the movement of the suspension more than the other way around due to the greater mass of coils. On a lightweight motorcycle driven over bumps and jumps this will give a similar feeling as a higher rate spring.
Andy's experience with motorcycles has no application here - it's apples and oranges. Whatever he experienced at autocrossing had nothing to do with inverting the springs in spite of his belief that it was the only thing that changed. (just my opinion!) The same feeling won't be experienced on a car since other factors play a much bigger role. If you want to reduce the unsprung weight you will have to live with a higher center of gravity and vice versa. Put them either way and you won't notice any difference unless you are a very talented driver and your car is a well built race car. But race cars typically don't use progressive springs because drivers don't want to experience a sudden change in spring rate when entering a corner. The comfort value of progressive springs is only for bumps on public roads.
BTW, I got a good laugh while reading the old discussion. Talk about people taking themselves too seriously. It's just like creationism vs. evolution. Both sides think in order for them to be right the other side has to be wrong.
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 19 2006, 07:41 AM
so it seems by looking at the yellow spring in my .. would I be correct in saying that the PO had cut off the "progressive" section off the spring........
Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 19 2006, 07:52 AM
| QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Mar 19 2006, 08:41 AM) |
| would I be correct in saying that the PO had cut off the "progressive" section off the spring........ |
Only if they started life as progressive springs.
If you had rear shocks with adjustable perches like Bilsteins you could install them and find out how they feel without suffering from the car being to low.
Posted by: itsa914 Mar 19 2006, 08:10 AM
My car last year at a AX in South Bend with those yellow springs installed. The front of the car was a low as I could get it without reindexing the front. Konis set at full firm up front and 3/4 rear. Other than having the konis set to full soft during street driving this is the way I always drove it. To low you tell me? sat like ~ 5.25 inches off the ground measured at the donuts. YMMV 
EDIT - all this with non adjustable pearches
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Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 19 2006, 08:36 AM
Garold,
That looks pretty darned good actually.
Posted by: sk8kat1 Mar 19 2006, 10:17 AM
huh then I wonder what these welts are to do to the back end of my car...
what tires are you running in that pic? 
Posted by: itsa914 Mar 19 2006, 11:30 AM
falken azenis 205/50/15
Posted by: Mueller Mar 19 2006, 01:01 PM
| QUOTE (sk8kat1 @ Mar 19 2006, 09:17 AM) |
| huh then I wonder what these welts are to do to the back end of my car... what tires are you running in that pic? |
just install the darn springs and find out...it should take you less that 30 minutes to remove and replace the springs.....it's not a hard or difficult job...are you sure you have bone stock spring on the car and that the PO has not changed them??
Posted by: McMark Mar 19 2006, 03:34 PM
How about a couple close up pictures of the ends of the yellow spring. Should be pretty easy to see if they've been cut or not.
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