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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Installing Pertronix tonight
Posted by: drewvw Mar 21 2006, 09:49 AM
What's up all. I was MIA in Colorado for awhile but now I am back and ready to continue work on the teener. I searched the archives and read up on the electrionic ignitions and got a good deal on the pertronix one.
Any quick tips for me on the install? seems pretty straight forward...
drew
Posted by: anthony Mar 21 2006, 10:00 AM
Pertronix has a reputation for being the most troublesome of these devices. Mostly I think, it is because:
1) people cross wires during installation and blow it up
2) people listen to the radio without the car running and blow it up
3) they don't give enough slack in the wires inside the distributor and then lose some advance and/or the wires wear against something and short out.
Avoid all of the above and you'll be fine.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Mar 21 2006, 10:01 AM
DO throw it in the trash before it leaves you stranded. DON'T install it in your distributor. The Cap'n, in his role as "The Anti-Pertronix".
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 21 2006, 10:06 AM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Mar 21 2006, 08:01 AM) |
| DO throw it in the trash before it leaves you stranded. DON'T install it in your distributor. The Cap'n, in his role as "The Anti-Pertronix". |
Don't listen to the Krusty one
Posted by: Eddie Williams Mar 21 2006, 10:07 AM
| QUOTE (anthony @ Mar 21 2006, 10:00 AM) |
| 3) they don't give enough slack in the wires inside the distributor and then lose some advance and/or the wires wear against something and short out. |
You forgot to ad "and blow it up."
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 21 2006, 10:07 AM
do carry a set of points (does the pertronixs use a stock condensor?) and a feeler gauge at all times. maybe a stock rotor too?
k
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Mar 21 2006, 10:51 AM
I did a compufire version. it required me to trim the bottom of teh rotor to compensate for teh thickness of teh disk
Posted by: drewvw Mar 21 2006, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the responses. I read about the radio blowing it up thing in past threads, the Pertronix II has something to help with this right?
why does this happen...whats the technical explanation for the "radio blow up" issue?
Posted by: Spoke Mar 21 2006, 11:29 AM
| QUOTE (drewvw @ Mar 21 2006, 12:09 PM) |
| Thanks for the responses. I read about the radio blowing it up thing in past threads, the Pertronix II has something to help with this right? why does this happen...whats the technical explanation for the "radio blow up" issue? |
I don't think the radio has anything to do with it. 914s lack an "accessory" position on the ignition switch.
The issue is that when the car is running, the coil current is constantly interrupted by Pertronix/points for spark generation and never builds up to extremely high currents. When the key is turned on just to listen to the radio with the engine not running, the coil current isn't interrupted and continues to increase to high current levels which causes heat build up in Pertronix and ultimate failure of the solid state switch in the Pertronix.
I solved the radio thing by adding an extra emergency flasher dashboard switch just to turn the radio on only when the car is off. This way I can listen to the radio when the car is not running.
I also carry extra points and condenser, as well as my feeler gauge, full tool box, spare quart of oil.
Spoke
Posted by: drewvw Mar 21 2006, 11:37 AM
| QUOTE (Spoke @ Mar 21 2006, 09:29 AM) |
| The issue is that when the car is running, the coil current is constantly interrupted by Pertronix/points for spark generation and never builds up to extremely high currents. When the key is turned on just to listen to the radio with the engine not running, the coil current isn't interrupted and continues to increase to high current levels which causes heat build up in Pertronix and ultimate failure of the solid state switch in the Pertronix. I solved the radio thing by adding an extra emergency flasher dashboard switch just to turn the radio on only when the car is off. This way I can listen to the radio when the car is not running. I also carry extra points and condenser, as well as my feeler gauge, full tool box, spare quart of oil. Spoke |
ok, that makes sense. So as it stands right now, the radio in the car is actually hooked up directly to the battery, and does not need the ignition switch to be turned to be powered on.
Does that mean I wont have this problem, if I do in fact find that the PO wired direct power to the radio?
Also, anything with the timing I should be aware of? Just time it to the mark as per usual correct?
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 21 2006, 11:52 AM
Yup time it as normal and don't worry about the dwell as the electronics will take care of it.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Mar 21 2006, 12:34 PM
I am about to do the same install.
I assume leaving the key on while trouble shooting an electrical problem would lead to the same damage as playing the radio.
Would disconnecting the hot wire to the coil while working on the electrics solve the problem?
Posted by: Spoke Mar 21 2006, 12:35 PM
| QUOTE (drewvw @ Mar 21 2006, 12:37 PM) |
| So as it stands right now, the radio in the car is actually hooked up directly to the battery, and does not need the ignition switch to be turned to be powered on. Does that mean I wont have this problem, if I do in fact find that the PO wired direct power to the radio? |
I don't know how the original radios were connected. My 71 needed the key in the "on" position for the radio to come on (I wired the radio). On my 74, the radio is connected to a "hot" wire which always has battery voltage.
If your radio comes on with the key in the "off" position, then it is directly powered from the battery. If it switches on when the key is in the "on" position, then it is connected like most modern cars where removing the key or turning to the "off" position turns the radio off.
Spoke
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Mar 21 2006, 12:38 PM
| QUOTE (Porsche Rescue @ Mar 21 2006, 10:34 AM) |
| I am about to do the same install. I assume leaving the key on while trouble shooting an electrical problem would lead to the same damage as playing the radio. Would disconnecting the hot wire to the coil while working on the electrics solve the problem? |
Correct on all accounts.
Posted by: yarin Mar 21 2006, 12:38 PM
I'm going to install Petronix over the next week or two.
As far as leaving the ignition on goes, does anyone have an approximation for how long it takes a unit to burn out? Are we talking 1/2 hour or one minute?
Thanks
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Mar 21 2006, 12:39 PM
I've used the Pertronix and Compufire electronic points for years and neither has left me stranded. Definitely a 'must do' upgrade in my book.
Posted by: Spoke Mar 21 2006, 12:39 PM
| QUOTE (Porsche Rescue @ Mar 21 2006, 01:34 PM) |
| I am about to do the same install. I assume leaving the key on while trouble shooting an electrical problem would lead to the same damage as playing the radio. Would disconnecting the hot wire to the coil while working on the electrics solve the problem? |
Yep.
My 71 is carburated so the only wire that I have to remove is the +12V wire to the coil.
FI cars may have other wires going to the processor which may need to be disconnected. Someone familiar with FI should chime in here. I would like to know this for my 74 which is FI.
Spoke
Posted by: Flat VW Mar 21 2006, 12:42 PM
| QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Mar 21 2006, 09:01 AM) |
| DO throw it in the trash before it leaves you stranded. DON'T install it in your distributor. The Cap'n, in his role as "The Anti-Pertronix". |
Why, oh Great One?
John
Posted by: yarin Mar 21 2006, 12:42 PM
I'm upgrading from Carbs to Megasquirt. i figured i should get rid of points hoping for a slightly cleaner ignition signal. Tinkering with dwell got really annoying, i would much rather just elminate them.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Mar 21 2006, 12:50 PM
| QUOTE (Spoke @ Mar 21 2006, 10:39 AM) |
| FI cars may have other wires going to the processor which may need to be disconnected. Someone familiar with FI should chime in here. I would like to know this for my 74 which is FI. |
No damage will occur to FI cars if the key is left on.
Posted by: drewvw Mar 21 2006, 12:58 PM
This is great thanks. So in general, if you need to leave the key on for something, disconnect the coil wire.
The radio is not original, and it looks like something he bought and installed himself, and didn't go through the fusebox/ignition. Will have to look into this...
Posted by: 76green Mar 21 2006, 02:43 PM
Let me know how it goes...i am curious about doing it as well... 
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Mar 21 2006, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Mar 21 2006, 10:42 AM) | ||
Why, oh Great One? John |
In the 30 or so years I've seen them available, I've seen an inordinate number of them fail, leaving the car stranded. Of the dozens of Crane units I've installed and seen, there's been only ONE failure. Of the dozen or so Compufire units I've seen, no failures. The Cap'n
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Mar 21 2006, 02:51 PM
| QUOTE (drewvw @ Mar 21 2006, 10:58 AM) |
| This is great thanks. So in general, if you need to leave the key on for something, disconnect the coil wire. The radio is not original, and it looks like something he bought and installed himself, and didn't go through the fusebox/ignition. Will have to look into this... |
No radio is original in any 914. All were dealer or aftermarket installed. The Cap'n
Posted by: pfierb Mar 21 2006, 03:08 PM
| QUOTE (yarin @ Mar 21 2006, 02:38 PM) |
| I'm going to install Petronix over the next week or two. As far as leaving the ignition on goes, does anyone have an approximation for how long it takes a unit to burn out? Are we talking 1/2 hour or one minute? Thanks |
Last year some"ace" mechanic left my ignition on for 2days in error or incompetence.....nothing happened to the Pertronics....That is when the car had Webers, now it has the FI installed and the points and condenser are back...runs great.
Sold the Webers,Pertronics and the fuel pump to some guy for his dune buggey.....We are both happy.
Posted by: 914fan Mar 21 2006, 03:40 PM
The easiest way to "cross" the wires is when re-installing the plug to the main board. You know the one on the left of the compartment. If you move it Forward or backard 1 position (I forget what way) it will go on without any problems. That is untill you turn on the car. It will never start and you will be out $60. Allways triple check that the positive to the coil is getting 12v not the ground. Hook up that connector with the coil disconected and check voltage to bot negative and positing wires going to the coil. When it is right NEVER remove that plug again. If you must remove it mark it with a silver or white paint line so you can re-connect it correctly. I have almost 70K on my 3rd set. Blew the first one when installing. Blew the second one 6 years later with that plug. Now I have half a brain and know beter.
Posted by: shaggy Mar 21 2006, 04:06 PM
when you put the small round black blastic thing on the dizzy shaft be careful!
it is a fragile plastic and if you break it you SOL!(have to buy a new kit)
take a socket and gently tap it on, youll feel it fit into place.
-shag
Posted by: fiid Mar 21 2006, 04:40 PM
Everyone hates the pertronix. I had one for a while when I had my 1.7 and never had a problem. The above post clarifies the situation well:
1) They don't like being wired up the wrong way around. Make double sure the wires on the coil are the polarity you think they are (find the markings) before you hook the pertonix up.
2) They apparently don't like being left on with the ignition on. I didn't know this was an issue and I never smoked mine. My suspicion is that if a magnet is near the sensor at the time the ignition is on without the engine running it causes a problem. I believe that the root cause is something like this because not everyone who has had a pertronix has had this experience. I think I read (double check this) that it's no problem as long as it's less than about 20seconds in any case, so I'd just try to avoid leaving the ignition on without the motor running and you'll probably be ok.
Like I said - I never had a problem with mine, and I didn't know about these things when I installed mine. The only reason I stopped using it was that my new engine has no distibutor.
Posted by: sanman Mar 21 2006, 04:46 PM
| QUOTE (fiid @ Mar 21 2006, 02:40 PM) |
| Everyone hates the pertronix. I had one for a while when I had my 1.7 and never had a problem. The above post clarifies the situation well: 1) They don't like being wired up the wrong way around. Make double sure the wires on the coil are the polarity you think they are (find the markings) before you hook the pertonix up. 2) They apparently don't like being left on with the ignition on. I didn't know this was an issue and I never smoked mine. My suspicion is that if a magnet is near the sensor at the time the ignition is on without the engine running it causes a problem. I believe that the root cause is something like this because not everyone who has had a pertronix has had this experience. I think I read (double check this) that it's no problem as long as it's less than about 20seconds in any case, so I'd just try to avoid leaving the ignition on without the motor running and you'll probably be ok. Like I said - I never had a problem with mine, and I didn't know about these things when I installed mine. The only reason I stopped using it was that my new engine has no distibutor. |
I am Still using Fiid's old petronic.
Posted by: Brando Mar 21 2006, 04:49 PM
See, this is why I have yet to install my pertronix setup. It's a time-consuming effort to pull the distributor, points and condensor, fry it, and re-install the old hardware.
"Does your car have a pertronix or compufire?"
"Yeah, in the glove box." 
Posted by: sanman Mar 21 2006, 04:58 PM
| QUOTE (Brando @ Mar 21 2006, 02:49 PM) |
| See, this is why I have yet to install my pertronix setup. It's a time-consuming effort to pull the distributor, points and condensor, fry it, and re-install the old hardware. "Does your car have a pertronix or compufire?" "Yeah, in the glove box." |
easy 10 min job, runs smoother with the pertronics, keep the points in your glove box instead.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Mar 21 2006, 07:31 PM
Criminey...for those fumble fingers who are afraid of mis-wiring the two simple wires, why not simply solder in a diode? Guys, this ain't rocket science, sheesh! And some of you work on your own cars? ... 
yikes...
Posted by: Gint Mar 21 2006, 08:09 PM
| QUOTE (Air_Cooled_Nut @ Mar 21 2006, 06:31 PM) |
| Criminey...for those fumble fingers who are afraid of mis-wiring the two simple wires, why not simply solder in a diode? Guys, this ain't rocket science, sheesh! And some of you work on your own cars? ... yikes... |
Aw lighten up there a tad. Most people don't know what a diode is or does. Doesn't make you totally inept swingin a wrench.
Posted by: drewvw Mar 21 2006, 08:11 PM
Update:
I installed the pertronix tonight with very few problems, outside of getting used to working on an engine in a spider hole (first time doing engine stuff in there)! I did figure out however that my small garage is ideal for the 914 because I can kick my feet up on the wall and really get myself in there!
I had to shave down my rotor too, somebody mentioned that.
the car definitely felt more responsive and punchy, but there are still a few acceleration bumps here and there. I guess I should be checking for vacuum leaks next?
thanks for the help....
drew 
Posted by: fiid Mar 21 2006, 11:06 PM
| QUOTE (Air_Cooled_Nut @ Mar 21 2006, 05:31 PM) |
| Criminey...for those fumble fingers who are afraid of mis-wiring the two simple wires, why not simply solder in a diode? Guys, this ain't rocket science, sheesh! And some of you work on your own cars? ... yikes... |
The real question to me is WTF didn't pertronix make their product a little more robust? It doesn't look like it would have been very difficult for them to add a bit more protection and avoid all these problems altogether. And then everybody would stop hatin' on their product.
Posted by: Brando Mar 22 2006, 02:08 AM
I don't know about you guys -- well, I know about Cap'n Krusty -- But I like the pertronix units. I had one in my Karmann Ghia until I replaced the dead coil and hooked the unit up backwards. Hello points and condensor! They were about 5 years old anyways.
Posted by: effutuo101 Mar 22 2006, 10:57 AM
I put mine in early last year and have had 0 problems with it. I have a spare that I keep with me just in case....but, then again, I have quite a few spares in a bag that I throw in my car for trips longer than 100 miles. I found that my car started easier, ran cleaner and lost all of the strange little ignition problems once I threw away the points and condenser.
C~
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 22 2006, 03:08 PM
Yea just wait till you put a Mallory Dizzy in, 
Anybody want a .009 with compufire?
Posted by: McMark Mar 22 2006, 03:35 PM
| QUOTE (fiid @ Mar 21 2006, 02:40 PM) |
| They apparently don't like being left on with the ignition on. ...SNIP... My suspicion is that if a magnet is near the sensor at the time the ignition is on without the engine running it causes a problem. |
This is correct, and technically, there's a similar problem with points. If your points are closed, or the Pertronix circuit is closed you have electricity flowing through the coil. The constant flow of electricity builds heat and burns out sensitive electronics. If you have points, they won't "burn out" but you can get a large chunk of the contact patch break away and stick the the opposite side. I don't know how else to describe that phenomenon.
If you leave the key ON it will only cause a problem if the LT coil circuit is closed. If your distributor is oriented in such a way that the LT circuit is open, you can leave the key on all day. One silly solution to a not-problem would be to wire up a light on the dash that shines when the circuit is closed. If you turn on your key to listen to the radio or test something electrical and the light comes on, bump your engine until the light goes out. Then you can leave the key on.
Posted by: swl Mar 22 2006, 04:05 PM
| QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 22 2006, 01:35 PM) |
| One silly solution to a not-problem would be to wire up a light on the dash that shines when the circuit is closed. |
even sillier - wire in an ignition kill switch.
mind you the more I think about it I like the light. Sorta says 'Hey idiot you are about to fry your points/pertronics/whatever'
better yet a nice voice synthesizer that says in best star trek computer voice 'self destruct in 30 seconds, 29, 28 ...
Posted by: MarkV Mar 22 2006, 04:07 PM
They fixed the promblem w/ the ignitor II. You can leave the ignition on all day.
Posted by: McMark Mar 22 2006, 06:53 PM
| QUOTE (MarkV @ Mar 22 2006, 02:07 PM) |
| They fixed the promblem w/ the ignitor II. You can leave the ignition on all day. |
And you pay a lot more for it.
Posted by: McMark Mar 22 2006, 07:06 PM
And it's not available for the 914.
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