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Posted by: drewvw Apr 3 2006, 04:52 PM

I went to change my tranny fluid today and found that my drain plug is rounded out pretty good. Fill plug is fine, and I was happy to find she was at least filled with oil.

Questions:

1) Whats the best way to get this thing out of there? I don't have a welder. Can I JB Weld a hex bolt in there and break it free? Looks like it hasn't moved in decades.

2) I took out that plug on the bottom (the one with the spring and ball bearing) in an attempt to get it to drain. Went back in fine...did I screw anything up by taking it out??

Thanks in advance...
drew

Posted by: lapuwali Apr 3 2006, 05:02 PM

The spring and ball bearing bit has quite a few parts up in there, all are the detent balls for locking the car in each gear. So, if you can still shift it from one gear to the next, and it stays in gear, you reassembled it correctly. The Haynes manual shows a drawing with the correct order.

As for the plug, you could just get a fluid pump, stuff it down the filler hole, and pump the old fluid out. This will at least get the oil changed.

Posted by: drewvw Apr 3 2006, 05:12 PM

when I took out the detent plug, the car was in first gear and only the spring and ball bearing came out. None of the other stuff did that I saw in the diagrams....

Posted by: bondo Apr 3 2006, 05:20 PM

With the shift fork shafts in place, the other bits will not come out. As long as you got that ball and spring back in (ball on top) you're fine.

As for the plug, that's tough... JB weld MIGHT work, but I doubt it. Maybe something like a giant easy-out? You could always drill it, use an easy out, and then use a new plug. The plug particles would stick to the magnet, so you probably won't have a big problem with shavings in the trans.

You could always just leave it.. They make transfer pumps that will drain fluids out of the fill hole. A stuck drain plug is much better than a stuck fill plug... (which is why they say always take out the fill plug first)

Posted by: wbergtho Apr 3 2006, 08:27 PM

I had a similar problem w/ my drain plug on my 915. I assume your drain plug is a female hex and it is rounded out BIG TIME. I chopped off about a 3" allen hex and welded it to the drain plug...I then put a breaker bar on the "allen attachment" and cranked it out. It was a PITA! I then bought a new drain plug and chopped off another 1 1/4" section of hex stock and brazed it to the new plug effectively making a custom MALE drain plug. I know someone makes a male plug but I decided to make my own. I have no idea why porsche decided to make a female plug...it gets rounded out over the years and become an absolute pain in the ass to get out. I spent an entire afternoon fu-----g around with this. I feel your pain.

Bill

Posted by: drewvw Apr 3 2006, 08:35 PM

That was you, I read that post about the welding it in before. I think for the moment I will give the the pump idea a try just to change the fluid and finish the tranmission meet and greet phase.

Then...try and make a male plug and get it out. Doesn't sound fun.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 3 2006, 09:46 PM

Magnesium will not stick to the magnet, Bondo.

I would drill the plug, thread an easy out into it and get it out. Use heat to get it loose. Heat maybe not as recommended if it still has oil in it and is in the car, though

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 3 2006, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Apr 3 2006, 08:46 PM)

Magnesium will not stick to the magnet, Bondo. I would drill the plug, thread an easy out into it and get it out. Use heat to get it loose. Heat maybe not as recommended if it still has oil in it and is in the car, though

the plugs arent magnesium yo

Posted by: SLITS Apr 3 2006, 09:50 PM

I used a chisel and BFH...it came out.....I put the new one in with a little anti-sieze and didn't tighten it with the 17mm hex and a 3' cheater bar.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 3 2006, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 3 2006, 11:47 PM)

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Apr 3 2006, 08:46 PM) Magnesium will not stick to the magnet, Bondo. I would drill the plug, thread an easy out into it and get it out. Use heat to get it loose. Heat maybe not as recommended if it still has oil in it and is in the car, though the plugs arent magnesium yo

Funny, they tasted like magnesium Ya, my bad. I guess the magnet inside of them would not stick otherwise

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 3 2006, 10:29 PM

Why change the oil at all? It doesn't wear out, doesn't get loaded with combustion byproducts, and doesn't carry dangerous steel particles around. Unless you hear horrible noises, there's not much else in it either. If you do hear horrible noises, the tranny's a gonner anyway. I would hesitate to apply direct flame to a Mag alloy case, unless I wanted to start a REALLY cool bonfire.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 3 2006, 10:31 PM

Don e it many times with a propane torch. Never a class D fire

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 3 2006, 11:04 PM

so you CAN torch a mag case?

cant weld it though....right?

b

Posted by: Tobra Apr 3 2006, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Apr 3 2006, 08:29 PM)

Why change the oil at all?  It doesn't wear out, doesn't get loaded with combustion byproducts, and doesn't carry dangerous steel particles around. Unless you hear horrible noises, there's not much else in it either.  If you do hear horrible noises, the tranny's a gonner anyway.  I would hesitate to apply direct flame to a Mag alloy case, unless I wanted to start a REALLY cool bonfire.

Why change the oil at all? Come now Cap'n, you disappoint me. The oil degrades with time and heat cycles also. My tranny leaks, but not enough that just topping it up is adequate to my mind, regardless of any factory recommendations.

Why not cut a piece of allen wrench, J-B weld it to make your male drain plug. No heat, and that J-B epoxy is pretty tough. If you screw that up, you could still cut it off flush and drill it out, though a piece of allen wrench might be pretty hard to drill...

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 4 2006, 12:18 AM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 4 2006, 01:04 AM)

so you CAN torch a mag case? cant weld it though....right? b

Wrong, you can weld it. I am sure someone has a pic of a welded on ear which is semi common to find. Alloyed magnesium has a pretty high flash pont. You cant just get out the old mig and weld it, though. I am pretty sure you need a special kind of rig.

Never change the oil Good one

Posted by: Porcharu Apr 4 2006, 12:40 AM

QUOTE (Dr Evil @ Apr 3 2006, 07:46 PM)

I would drill the plug, thread an easy out into it and get it out. Use heat to get it loose. Heat maybe not as recommended if it still has oil in it and is in the car, though

I wouldn't do that on my car. What happens WHEN (not if) the ez-out breaks - the poor guy has a BFH in his transmission. That plug is in very tight or it wouldn't be stripped out.
Do the cut off allen wrench (my wrench still works for oil plugs) welded to the plug trick. Just clean it up good with some break cleaner and drive it to a welder or a small muffler place and have them MIG it on there. It only takes about 2 minutes total to do it. Shoudn't cost more that a 6 pack on Friday afternoon.

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 09:39 AM

The tranny isn't making any horrible sounds, but it gets cranky in 1st reverse after its been driving awhile, so I was going to change the tranny oil as part of my three pronged attack:

1) replace tranny fluid
2) adjust clutch
3) replace shift bushings

I am beginning to accept that my dog ears are probably worn but I figure I should try some stuff before....cause I ain't spending the $$ on a new tranny for awhile. The ghia hasn't had 1st gear in 10 years!

drew

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 4 2006, 09:48 AM

QUOTE (Tobra @ Apr 3 2006, 09:06 PM)

QUOTE (Cap'n Krusty @ Apr 3 2006, 08:29 PM) Why change the oil at all?  It doesn't wear out, doesn't get loaded with combustion byproducts, and doesn't carry dangerous steel particles around. Unless you hear horrible noises, there's not much else in it either.  If you do hear horrible noises, the tranny's a gonner anyway.  I would hesitate to apply direct flame to a Mag alloy case, unless I wanted to start a REALLY cool bonfire. Why change the oil at all? Come now Cap'n, you disappoint me. The oil degrades with time and heat cycles also. My tranny leaks, but not enough that just topping it up is adequate to my mind, regardless of any factory recommendations. Why not cut a piece of allen wrench, J-B weld it to make your male drain plug. No heat, and that J-B epoxy is pretty tough. If you screw that up, you could still cut it off flush and drill it out, though a piece of allen wrench might be pretty hard to drill...

Degrades? Show me where it says that. The Cap'n

Posted by: Mueller Apr 4 2006, 10:28 AM

the cap'n is correct.....many manufactures of transmissions and rear diffs do not recommend a regular draining and re-filling...engine oil breaks down due to the combustion process...in fact propane powered engines can go 10X or longer with no oil change since they burn so clean and do not contaminate the oil like gas or diesel engines....

Posted by: Tobra Apr 4 2006, 04:22 PM

As I said in my original post, regardless of factory recommendations. They also advise 15, 000 mile engine oil change intervals for cars nowadays, which I would never do.

You are trying to tell me, that oil never degrades if you don't expose it to combustion byproducts. That is just not plausible to me, with what I know about Organic Chemistry.

Posted by: bondo Apr 4 2006, 05:39 PM

It also fills with brass and molybdenum bits which won't stick to the magnet. And being vented, it certainly has the possibility of picking up dirt and moisture. I certainly don't think it needs to be changed often..

I'm sure most of the time you can get by without ever changing it... But I don't see there being no reason to change it for fresh occasionally.

It's worth it to me, for the purposes of ensuring maximum performance and lifespan, to change it every few years. Ya gotta get under there to check the level anyways, might as well get the shimmery glitter bits out, clean off the magnet, and make sure your drain plug doesn't fuse in place.

Lets start a synthetic vs. non vs leaks vs syncro effectiveness vs wear argument now..

Posted by: SLITS Apr 4 2006, 06:47 PM

Synthetic leaks out faster........

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 07:52 PM

QUOTE (bondo @ Apr 4 2006, 03:39 PM)

Lets start a synthetic vs. non vs leaks vs syncro effectiveness vs wear argument now..

or better yet...lets start a debate on whether warming up your car is better than just moderately driving it up after startup.

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 4 2006, 08:15 PM

QUOTE (drewvw @ Apr 4 2006, 07:52 PM)

QUOTE (bondo @ Apr 4 2006, 03:39 PM) Lets start a synthetic vs. non vs leaks vs syncro effectiveness vs wear argument now.. or better yet...lets start a debate on whether warming up your car is better than just moderately driving it up after startup.

uh the manual states that a idle warm up isnt necessary...just dont drive the piss out of it till its warm.

me personally, I just drive...I only occasionally drive very wildly.

b

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 08:18 PM

Noted. This is an ongoing argument I've had wth my dad for about 10 years now. I've always been an "idler", although I'm not delusional that its any better than any other method.

Maybe its psychological, but I've been pretty lucky with cars over the years so I'm sticking to it (knock on wood!)

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 4 2006, 08:21 PM

QUOTE (drewvw @ Apr 4 2006, 08:18 PM)

Noted. This is an ongoing argument I've had wth my dad for about 10 years now. I've always been an "idler", although I'm not delusional that its any better than any other method. Maybe its psychological, but I've been pretty lucky with cars over the years so I'm sticking to it (knock on wood!)

ever watched cars at the traffic lights (long ones), and then the light turns green they pull away and out comes a BIG amount of water out of teh tailpipe.

imagine if that stayed in for ten to fifteen minutes EVERY time for the life of the engine.

Can we say rust?

b

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 08:25 PM

Yeah but I've driven old european cars with lots of miles on them my whole life, that only seems to happen to fresh new cars.....

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 4 2006, 08:28 PM

I recall someone saying it was in the manual...and come to think of it I have a 73 manual. A euro 74 one as well. And I think i read this.

I think overall, its just personal preference. Sure its better to have heat when you need it, and not having to wait till the HE's heat up.

I think we're just splitting hairs here....

b

Posted by: TimT Apr 4 2006, 08:33 PM

QUOTE

Why change the oil at all?

QUOTE

the cap'n is correct.....many manufactures of transmissions and rear diffs do not recommend a regular draining and re-filling..

Hmm your both wrong...

Ive taken the liberty of attaching a scan of a Porsche Drivers Manual..This scan is from a manual from an early 70's 911...
and yes the recommended service interval is 6000 miles..

Crustholio.. how you have led your flock astray....

Im aware that the oils we use in our cars now are much improved from the 1970's....

so change your gear oil once a year ;-)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 08:37 PM

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Apr 4 2006, 06:28 PM)

I think we're just splitting hairs here.... b

probably true. I need something to chat about while I watch the red sox get spanked by the rangers....

TimT, nice pull there with the chart

Posted by: Tobra Apr 4 2006, 08:55 PM

Why on Earth would you sell an S2K? I want one, can you get one in supersonic blue, always liked that color.

So, where is the flaw in the idea to JB Weld it on? I could even put the tool I have in there, have another drain plug handy already. If it fails, would probably just pump it out, bro has one of them, before I would drill it out, I would be afraid of doing something bad.

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 09:07 PM

QUOTE (Tobra @ Apr 4 2006, 06:55 PM)

Why on Earth would you sell an S2K? I want one, can you get one in supersonic blue, always liked that color. So, where is the flaw in the idea to JB Weld it on? I could even put the tool I have in there, have another drain plug handy already. If it fails, would probably just pump it out, bro has one of them, before I would drill it out, I would be afraid of doing something bad.

I didn't WANT to sell the S2K, I had too....long story ending in compromise in the form of a 914. Just going with the flow, loved that car...

I am planning on giving the JB weld plan a careful try in the future.

Posted by: Tobra Apr 4 2006, 09:10 PM

Too bad, I want one of those when the integra dies, if it ever dies I should say

Posted by: drewvw Apr 4 2006, 09:14 PM

it was time...I had it for 3 years and started recieving signs (is that what running from the cops is?) that I should probably downgrade while I live in the city.

the 9000 rpm redline was too much fun....

Posted by: Porcharu Apr 4 2006, 11:52 PM

QUOTE (drewvw @ Apr 4 2006, 05:52 PM)

QUOTE (bondo @ Apr 4 2006, 03:39 PM) Lets start a synthetic vs. non vs leaks vs syncro effectiveness vs wear argument now.. or better yet...lets start a debate on whether warming up your car is better than just moderately driving it up after startup.

No religious discussions on the 914non-club.com!

Posted by: racunniff Jan 7 2008, 08:30 PM

I ran into this problem - but it was the *fill* plug that would not budge. Fortunately, I followed the sage advice of not opening the drain plug until I had the fill plug out. I tried all sorts of things - heat (both hot air gun as well as a torch), a chisel, sticking a bit of metal in with the drain plug removal tool, cursing, beating my head against the tranny, etc. What finally worked was similar to the "17mm Allen wrench" trick. Unfortunately, nobody around here seemed to carry such an item. However, M10 nuts/bolts have 17mm heads. So, I welded a bolt to a nut:



This fit nicely in the socket on my breaker bar:



And fit snugly in the drain plug. I started turning... and it *still* would not budge. In fact, with enough pressure, I *broke the weld bead on top of the bolt and the bolt started turning* Probably because of oils on the bolt that I had not bothered to clean off.

What finally worked was when I filled in the space between the nut head and the bolt with welding beads. Effectively, I built a 17mm Allen wrench . It looks like but it did the trick. Once I got the drain plug out, I welded the bolt to it to avoid a repeat until I can get a replacement filler hole plug:



I'm on the hunt for a real 17mm Allen socket. Does anybody know why the genius who designed the plug remover gave it *round corners*?

Posted by: Danny_Ocean Jan 7 2008, 08:50 PM

Can you drill out the plug with a slightly smaller drill-bit (17mm), then (carefully) chisel away the remaining threads? How about hitting it with a reverse drill-bit?

Posted by: racunniff Jan 7 2008, 08:52 PM

I think drilling the whole thing out is asking for metal flakes in your tranny. A reverse drill-bit is a good idea - I bought a large screw extractor as my backup plan - but I did not have to go there. The bolt trick worked just fine.

Posted by: Dr Evil Jan 7 2008, 11:05 PM

I may have a spare plug for ya. You can get a 17mm allen socket attachment at Auto Zone for like $5 in a set. Also, craftsman makes a real sturdy one.

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Jan 7 2008, 11:08 PM

So does Snap-on

Posted by: jd74914 Jan 7 2008, 11:20 PM

but Snap-on is ridiculously expensive . . .

Posted by: Blood red 914-6gt Jan 7 2008, 11:34 PM

But worth every penny When I was wrenching a few years agoImade it a point to only by Snap-on. Now that I am just you at home mechanic I am glad I did as the quality is just so much higher. However, I do know that you don't need to have that level of tools for doing at home stuff. Sure is nice though.

Posted by: Rusty Jan 8 2008, 06:23 AM

This thread is a blast from the past...

Nice pics, Racuniff. Good detail showing how to do it!

I second the comment about the 17mm craftsman allen wrench. I've used mine set for about 10 years.

Posted by: Porcharu Jan 8 2008, 01:51 PM

Did you ever get the plug out?

Posted by: racunniff Jan 8 2008, 09:04 PM

Yep. That last pic is the fill plug out. I welded the bolt to it after it was out. My new ones just showed up from The Bird, and, thanks to the tips to check out Auto Zone, I have a 17mm Allen socket to put them in with (no more round corners!)

I need to pull the tranny here before too long - the mainseal is leaking - so I'll replace the drain plug at that time.