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Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 06:47 PM

Well, I put fuel into my 914 tonight and tried to pressurize the system. My car quickly started to pee on the floor under the fuel pump. Soooo, I can see no way that I can be ready for Hershey with my car as I need a CIS fuel injection pump for a 74 911 2.7 engine.


Anyone know of a cross over part?

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 19 2006, 06:56 PM

OUCH. I checked wholesale on a new one for you.. 446.00

part # 911 608 110 02

911T 73 CIS and 74 - 76

I dont have a used one. I'm betting most of the used ones will leak also (they dry out from the gas)


B

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 19 2006, 06:57 PM

How long has it had "gas" on it? Some of them come back to life. I try to store them with gas in them.


B

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 07:00 PM

Ya, prices are way high. Thanks for looking. It leaked from the electrical connection (which I found to be wierd).

It had gas on it for about 2 min....should I reassemble it and soak it?

Posted by: plas76targa Apr 19 2006, 07:02 PM

Mike,

I'll offer to pull the FP off my 76 911 if ya want to borrow it until you can get another. (my car isn't going anywhere soon anyway). Problem is I can't help you get ready before Sat. I'll bring it up Sat if ya need it. Assuming it's easy to access and remove?

Matt

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 19 2006, 07:03 PM

I would. They all leak from that same place. It is a rubber seal that dries out when it is not soaked in gas.

What you should do is find out what the requirements are and locate a reasonably priced replacement.

Can you show me a picture of it "apart"?


B

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 07:04 PM

Matt, your a fine human being, but I need a CIS fuel pump from a 911 and a 914 one will not work. Too low PSI. Thanks for the offer, though.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 19 2006, 07:05 PM

Mike,

do you have any vaseline or KY ?? need to prep you before I hit you with the bill..LOL


Just kidding. I want you to lube the seals with something.


umm.. he said "76 911"


B

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 07:07 PM

I can't show yo a pic of it appart as it is not completely apart. I stopped short of cracking the case like a coco nut in my frustration. I figured it was crapped. I may not have completely destroyed it (?)

damn

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 19 2006, 07:13 PM

You may have not destroyed it completely.

Somebody I know managed to locate replacement seals for the pumps.. I would check with a company called "Python" they do a lot of the rebuilding.


B

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 07:16 PM

Ooops, ya he said 911. Sorry Matt. it realy is not worth the trouble. It might not even match.

I am a bit nauseated at the moment as I was doused pretty good with gas and am afraid to fart near the fireplace.


I can try to lube the one seal that I can see, but the can seal is the one that is crapping on my parade. If I can reassemble it and test it (BIG mofo if) I will tomarrow. I'll go soak it tonight.

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 19 2006, 07:19 PM

Shoot me a picture of the pump.. before I head off for dinner. I'm just walking across the street.

I'll tell you how far you can dig into the pump when I see which one it is.


B

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 09:29 PM

Too late, it is assembled (?) and soaking. I vasolined the uper seal. I'm pretty sure its fuched, but wattayagonnado eh?

Let me find a pic for ya.

Posted by: r_towle Apr 19 2006, 09:34 PM

try autosportengineering.com in Stow MA..
He may have one..and he could overnight it.

Rich

Posted by: r_towle Apr 19 2006, 09:35 PM

Duh.
www.foreignintrigue.com

He has one.

Rich

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 09:43 PM

Here is a pic


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Posted by: r_towle Apr 19 2006, 09:50 PM

both the places I mentioned have used parts...they can get new..but they have used...both are east coast companies...

www.foreignintrigue.com has lots of dismantled cars...so he has one and will overnight it to you.

www.autosportengineering.com is a porshce shop...might have it..

www.dcautomotive.com
East coast dismantler...

Rich

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 09:51 PM

$591 from www.foreignintrigue.com, yikes

I am gonna keep an eye open for one at Hershey if I can t get it to work

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 19 2006, 09:52 PM

Ah, Rich. I see now. I am not gonna rush this as I have classes still this week. Thanks for the used parts lead. I will call them in the morning.

Posted by: r_towle Apr 19 2006, 09:54 PM

yup, not new...used
all three have them.

Rich

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 19 2006, 10:23 PM

I'm running a Volvo pump and accumulator... Works on my CIS. 4.7

Can you say cheap salvage parts?

Posted by: ejm Apr 19 2006, 11:47 PM

Most any CIS pump will work... along with Volvo lots of VW + Audi's had CIS.... shouldn't be to hard to find one in the boneyard... and new pumps for many of these can be had for less than $200

Posted by: sixnotfour Apr 20 2006, 02:08 AM

77 -83 911 and later Pump cheaper and used on way more applications.

Posted by: SLITS Apr 20 2006, 06:46 AM

Ok Mike.....Python Injection is in Stanton, CA. I was there yesterday. I can check and see what they get for the pump if you wish.

Posted by: nein14 Apr 20 2006, 06:46 AM

Try the partsbin.com

Posted by: pek771 Apr 20 2006, 07:32 AM

There is a suitable replacement pump, not an OEM. It is way cheaper. Unfortuneately, I don't have the name of it at work. I'll post it when I get home, or if I remember

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 09:08 AM

ejm,
that is what I was thinking, but my concerns are:
1. what pressure can I get/do I need?
2. What flow rate is necessary?

If I could match these criteria I would not worry. The big beef is that I doubt I will get a part by tonight or Fri. The junk yards here SUCK. I miss CA.

Rick,
What pressure/flow does your pump run, and what does your accumulator keep the pressure at?

sixnotfour,
True, but the 77 had a two pump system with a front and a rear. If the rear meets the parameteres that I need for my system then I would likely get one of those as thery are much cheaper and easier. An ebay guy told me that the 77 style is the right pump, but I am sure there is no returns and he may just want a sale.

SLITS,
I searched python and found them to only have the later style 77 type. No '74 type. If you find something, please let me know and thanks.

nein14,
I'll look into them.

I have my friend from class with me today that is into cars and is a local. Maybe she can point me to a parts yard.

What models/years should I be looking at for a surrogate pump?

Does it matter if the donor car has a 4 or 6 cylinder engine? I figure equal displacement engines will have equal pressure volume pumps.


Mikey just had to get a /6......

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 09:50 AM

Pressure is determined by the regulator on the CIS, not the pump.

I agree that almost any CIS pump should work.

Posted by: ejm Apr 20 2006, 11:26 AM

and the accumulator holds residual pressure on the system when the engine is off. This is needed to prevent the fuel from boiling in the lines and causing a hard start hot problem.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 03:08 PM

That all makes sense. I guess the difference between the $500 pump and the $150 pump is the P word and the mounting location.

"I agree that almost any CIS pump should work."

Joe, I am only afraid that I will not get one of the "almost any" ones. I'll see about hitting a yard or two. The yards out here need you to know tha model and year and then pull it for you. PITA. A new one will take a week to get here and I have definetly given up on rushing. Gonna be driving the Benz........I guess I will have to sit in a parking spot with my seat holding a 914club sign for the Hershey meet.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 03:57 PM

Anyone know what PSI range I am looking for? There are many after market that are inexpensive and would actually be easy to mount, but I need to know what range I am looking for.

Posted by: Headrage Apr 20 2006, 04:00 PM

Mike,

I have a FI pump out of a 2.0 /4. I know that it'll put out well over 100 psi. Joe sharp can verify it. I just don't know if it has the volume.

You can have it if you think it'll work.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 04:20 PM

Good question, and thanks. I found that Bosch 0 580 464 007 looks exactly the same and is for a 69-75 Volvo 140. No idea of the pressure and flow. Or if the 140 was K jet or not. I'll be looking.

If I could find out what pressure range I am looking for then I would have an easier time.

I may have a /4 pump in a box somewhere, but I am concerned about volume as well. I'll let you know.
Thanks again.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 04:32 PM

CIS runs around 75psi, depending on the exact application. Once again, the pressure is determined by the regulator, not the pump. Yes, the pump has to be compatible with the pressure and flow requirements. I firmly believe a CIS pump from any '80s Golf/Jetta/Scirocco would work on a '74 2.7.

I will probably confirm this next month on the TurtleGirl installation ('77 2.7 w/CIS).

A /4 pump will not work. That system runs in the 30s psi and that pump was not designed to handle the high pressure a CIS regulator would attempt to create.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 04:41 PM

Well, I was just looking around at some systems and they run cis at 48-60psi...or that is just when the injectors open. Volvo is looking like a good donor. I'll check 80's VWs too. Thanks.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 04:52 PM

This one WILL work.

You can't have it tomorrow, but it's new.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PORSCHE-FUEL-PUMP-NEW-911-924-928_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33555QQitemZ8055629723QQrdZ1


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Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 05:10 PM

Yup, that is one that i have been coming across regularly for many models. The one end is funky and in need of replacing to work with my system. Ebay has a load. My fule pump has a wierd Bosch number on it 158025499. I can't find a match anyware. The one for the volvo is on ebay and is at $12 new.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bosch-electric-fuel-pump-NOS-Volvo_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33555QQitemZ8056720557QQrdZ1

Not sure if I should jump on this one as it is the same looking pump as the OE. The Bosch p/n that I got off of another site for Volvo, Porsche, and Renault is 0 580 464 069. I couldn't even find a listing for 007 on the site.

Any info? I'll be getting one, just trying to get some info and make an informed decision.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 06:09 PM

The 'funky end' is a check valve. You just need the banjo fitting and cap that goes on it. They are not hard to find.

Posted by: ejm Apr 20 2006, 06:33 PM

Auction says its for a '74 .... seems to me Volvo ran a version of D-jet back then so that pump would be for a lower pressure system



great price....buy one... he has eight available with only two bids....I have a used pump I'll bring down tomorrow.... do you have a banjo and cap nut?

Posted by: sixnotfour Apr 20 2006, 07:07 PM

77 later had one pump up front . 73-75 one pump in back like yours. Turbo's have 2 pumps.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 07:52 PM

That's true, but the late pump will work by itself for a 914 application.

All the pumps 'push' really well, but none 'suck' (go ahead, I know) very well, so mount it close to the tank.

Mine is in the front with all the oil equipment.

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 20 2006, 08:32 PM

I've been out of town, I agree with all these guys. Any CIS pump should work fine. I mounted mine under the tank. When it's running I can hear the fuel swoosh in the tank through the return line.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 09:31 PM

Ok, a few questions/thoughts.

I have my pump in the stock 73 location due to not wanting to push that much pressure through my stainless center tunnel lines that have no flared or barbed fittings. If they do not suck too well, then theoretically I am not gonna have luck with this set up anyway.

Can I move my pump up front with my curent tubing setup? If so, I would be happy.

But, if I can move my pump up front by the tank, whre do I put the accumulator?

There is some evedence to suggest that the 74 volvo is D-jet so I will pass on that pump.

As for the two pump one pump deal, I was just going by what the parts pimps were listing them as. They were saying that one is a "volume" pump and the other a "pressure" pump. I have looked at a lot of sites, though and have no idea where I saw what. I am glad that you guys think I can use a 77 with no prob. Much easier.

ejm,
I have all of the goodies as they were on the pump. If you see the pump pic I posted, that side fitting is a banjo.

You guys have been really helpful so far and I really appreciate it.

Gonna have to do some tranny rebuilds to pay for the fuel pump...I will be getting some cores soon.

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 20 2006, 09:34 PM

A guy in the SD PCA mag is advertsing a pump from a 75 911....$250.00.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 09:40 PM

Because the 914 tank is higher than a 911 tank, it should provide gravity flow on its own. Before you move the pump up front and risk putting 75psi on un-barbed lines, I would try it in the stock location and see how it works. It may be fine.

If you do move it up front, you don't need to change the location of your accumulator.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 20 2006, 10:00 PM

Thanks Mikey,
I got a guy offering me a used one on the bird board for $75 shipped....not sure if I should bite, or go for new....if I can.

I'll play it where it lies then Joe. Thanks

Posted by: Series9 Apr 20 2006, 10:07 PM

If you have access to any more rebuilt interior parts for the TurtleGirl project, I'll buy a new pump for you.

We need almost everything.

Posted by: rick 918-S Apr 20 2006, 10:33 PM

Be very careful with your fuel connections. I had a biotch of a time building a fuel tight system. I used black plastic fuel line with barbed fittings. You will really want to watch this.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 05:32 AM

Hey Joe,
sorry dude, I have nothing left. When I moved I gave it all to Al to sell and its all gone.

Rick,
The lines and stuff I have used for a while with my 2.0. I just had to add the fuel pump back in the stock location and then plumb it up. All of the CIS stuff past the pump is stock....wish me luck on this part.

Do you guys think that I should get the used one for $75?

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 08:15 AM

Ok, forgot to metion that the $75 one is a '77 pump.

I like to treat this place like an accessible data base for all 914 owners. So, I found some good info on different model bosch pumps that may work for other people wishing to convert to CIS, etc.

All of these pumps start with the 0 580 254 with the numebrs listed on the page being the last three numbers of the full part #.

*Bosch 910 pump is 200 litres per hour and supports 450 bhp at 73.5 PSI # 0 580 254 910
*Bosch 975 pump is 228 litres per hour and supports 500 bhp at 73.5 PSI # 0 580 254 975
*Bosch 984 pump is 228 litres per hour and supports 500 bhp at 73.5 PSI # 0 580 254 984
*Bosch 044 pump is 330 litres per hour and supports 730 bhp at 73.5 PSI # 0 580 254 044
*Bosch 040 pump is 235 litres per hour and supports 520 bhp at 73.5 PSI # 0 580 254 040

And more indepth info on these pumps can be found here:
http://clam.rutgers.edu/~dreadsct/resell/fuelpump/fuelpump.txt

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 21 2006, 08:25 AM

My last CIS ride....I used the pump that came with it and it failed....Aase Brothers provided me with a new one as he was the source of the engine and he warranteed the parts.....I mounted it in the stock 1970 location.

One thing....there is a check valve in the neck of the pump. It helps keep up pressure for hot starts.....otherwise the pressure will bleed off and the head temp sensor won't allow the flapper to open and actuate the pump.....pissed me off something fierce when it failed as well.....

Butt the gud part is....it's a CHEAP part. Like only 12 bucks.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 08:48 AM

Gonna have to figuer out how to use the check valve. It has a threaded end and such.

The page that i just posted saved me a possible $80 as I just found a new 975 bosch for $89 + shipping.

They all seem to have the inexpensive, screw on check valve, how did you end up using it? What mods did you have to do? I guess the stock pump had a built in check valve.....of course.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 21 2006, 09:45 AM

The banjo fitting goes over the check valve and the cap screws to the end of the check valve.

It makes a 90 degree turn out of the pump. It's very simple. There shouldn't be anything to figure out.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 11:55 AM

Ah, now I see. It wasn't so clear to me from the pics.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 01:41 PM

So my research has turned up several Bosch part numbers and vehicle applications. That being said Iam thinking of going with this one for $69 new. It is the 910 model

*Bosch 910 pump is 200 litres per hour and supports 450 bhp at 73.5 PSI # 0 580 254 910
0 580 254 910, 200l/h @ 5 bar


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8058231466&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Can't beat the price either.


Waddayathink?




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Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 01:42 PM

Quick question, is the check valve on the in or the out port? In would be awsome for my application, but I am doubting it.

Posted by: Flat VW Apr 21 2006, 06:23 PM

Posted by: Series9 Apr 21 2006, 06:49 PM

That will work and the check valve is on the pressure (out) side.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 07:04 PM

ejm just got done hanging out with me and he brought me a used one to try out.

Kinda sad that so many people have helped over the course of my build that I have a hard time keeping track. Ed also sent me some FI nipples for my accumulator back last year for free. What a guy.

914club--> just a bunch of great people

Posted by: Series9 Apr 21 2006, 07:35 PM

The price on that new one was too good to pass up. I got one for TurtleGirl.

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 21 2006, 07:40 PM

Heheheh....he said nipples.....

Posted by: Headrage Apr 21 2006, 07:41 PM

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 21 2006, 07:47 PM

Joe....yer stickers are done.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 21 2006, 07:49 PM

It said there were two left.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 21 2006, 10:49 PM

Ed (ejm) hooked me up with his old 81 SC pump. I may try it out tomarrow provided I can find the banjo fittings at the swap or the FALPS. If not I hope one of the pumps are still left.

Glad that it was good enough for your build, Joe. That is encouraging. Reciprocity is the true sign of class

Posted by: Gint Apr 21 2006, 10:55 PM

And since Mike found a replacement...

I bought the last one.

Gonna need it for the 2.7 Thanks for the research and info Mike.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 22 2006, 12:05 AM

Well, I'm glad you have faith in the used replacement that I have yet to test. I did say that if it didn't work that "I hope one of the pumps are still left."

Couldn't ya have waited 24 hours? If not you, then someone else, though;)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 22 2006, 12:07 AM

mike - i bought 3 of them. too good to pass up. figure id stock up for future six conversions...

Posted by: Gint Apr 22 2006, 08:59 AM

Somebody would have bought it. Fortunately for you it was me. I'll add that I left it alone when I saw this thread waiting to find out what you were going to do. I won't be needing this unit immediately Mike. If you need it you just let me know.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 22 2006, 10:37 AM

I know, Mike. Just funnin ya. I was telling Leo about it today and we both laughed.

Posted by: Dr Evil Apr 22 2006, 09:47 PM

Well, the pump works just fine so far as I can tell. I bought another pump at the swap for $15 that actually works as well. I got it for the banjo fitting and the cap nut.


Now......Leo and I pressurized mthe system and found the next fuel leak in one of the CIS hard plastic lines.

Where can I get the hard plastic hose?