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Posted by: blitZ Apr 23 2006, 12:25 PM

I ran my first AX today, had a blast and will become a regular. The SCCA group here in Atlanta run a nice event, lots of help for newbies like me. I ran the novice group but will be in Stock C class next, along with 10 or so Miatas.

Got a few questions for the seasoned AXers. Can I expect to compete with the Miatas? My best time was 10 seconds or so behind them. Certainly lots of practice and setup will help. Anyone else in CS class, who would like to share enhancements they have added.

I currently have a fairly healthy stock 2.0. I replaced the shocks with Bilsteins and the rear springs with 180lb coils. I have a stock 15mm front sway and have removed the rear sway to compensate for the big rear springs. The car corners well. The car needs new tie rods and ball joints, so I plan to replace them and install a bump steer kit while I'm at, so I can lower the car, if I want.

I have 2.0 Fuchs with the Semperit tires (195/60/15), which came with the car. I plan to get some better tires, perhaps Kumho or Coopers in a 205/55/15. Is this worth while or should I invest in some wider wheels, not much available in the 4 bolts pattern.

Posted by: Brando Apr 23 2006, 12:51 PM

Hmm... The only way you'll keep up with or beat a miata...

Learn to drive better than them (better times, control, etc)
Improve your suspension (better car control/stability)
Six conversion (more HP)
Forced Induction (more HP)

In that order

Posted by: Headrage Apr 23 2006, 12:52 PM

You can beat them in a stock 2 liter.

Work on the driving skills and get your suspension and tires dialed in.

Posted by: JPB Apr 23 2006, 12:59 PM

Ya know the cheapest way is to us the Nancy Carigan approach. Club the competition!


I think the name is right?

Posted by: Dave-O Apr 23 2006, 01:27 PM

I think the first thing you have to do is evaluate your goals. If you want to have fun autocrossing your 914, just buy some Falken/Kumho/Hankook high performance street tires and you will have a blast. I think at a local level, a 914 can be "somewhat" compeditive with the miatas in CS but it's certainly not the top car in the class. A 99 sport miata is honestly a hell of a car, they handle great right out of the box, plus have more rim and a lot more horsepower than a stock 914.

Some notes about SCCA stock class: By adding 180 lb. springs you are no longer in stock class. The only mods allowed in stock class are: unlimited front sway bar, any shocks with 2 or less adjustments, muffler, and standard wear items (filters, brake pads, etc.) So no springs, can't change the distance of the rear spring perches, and no wider wheels.

My advice, leave the car alone, put on some good street tires, and see if your local region has a "street tire class" so you don't have to buy expensive DOT-R tires to be in the mix. #1 car mod...THE DRIVER! (you will hear that a lot)

Oh...the morst important thing you need to rememer is to HAVE FUN...that is what it is all about!

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 23 2006, 01:39 PM

i have two words for you:

slippery slope

and you're standing right at the top. down at the end you can see what looks like the trophy for your class-win. all you have to do is step on the slope and throw as much money as you can in all directions, with BOTH hands, while you slide down slowly.
by the time you reach the bottom of the slope, your pockets will be empty, the miata's will be history, you'll hold the trophy in your hands, your wife will have left you (and she took the kids with her) but somehow, you have never felt better in your life!

Andy

Posted by: blitZ Apr 23 2006, 04:25 PM

I see, maybe I should just tell the wife kids to leave me now to simplify things. Not necessarily looking to dominate the AX world, I just don't want to suck.

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Apr 23 2006, 04:27 PM

Posted by: anthony Apr 23 2006, 05:43 PM

If you want to beat a Miata in C stock then maybe buy an MR2. Unless you cheat, a 914 is never going to beat an equally prepared and equally good driver in a Miata.

My advice is to race against yourself at an AX not against others. The joy is in learning how to drive your car faster. If you later on decide that you want the trophy then buy a car that can win it for you. You will also have had to develop some good driving skills to go with it.

Posted by: Bruce Allert Apr 23 2006, 06:41 PM

Hey... learn how to drive yer car & you'll beat them. Hell, I have about 150 hP in my Miata and Britan closed the doors on me with his stock 1.7.

DriveDriveDrive!

Oh, BTW, I need more seat time too. That was my first in the Miata

.....b

Posted by: turboman808 Apr 23 2006, 08:30 PM

10 seconds is definetly down to newbie driver.

Some good street tires like the falkens would be a good idea. Lots of performance for real cheap.

I wouldn't bother with much else for now.

Posted by: porschecb Apr 23 2006, 09:14 PM

It's been A long time since I ax. The biggest problem I had was the 240z. Took 2 runs and they were done!!!! Try A DE You will find out more about your car and yourself!

Posted by: Tobra Apr 23 2006, 11:30 PM

Spend money on driving courses, that is the best mod you can make to any car, improve the driver.

You should do the auto cross stuff again, why did you quit doing it?I have mine about set up for that now, gonna join the PCA, maybe POC and do what they do.

Posted by: Andyrew Apr 24 2006, 02:19 AM

Get Tires....

nuf said.

Posted by: Part Pricer Apr 24 2006, 04:32 AM

I ran in CS for a few years. You need to get used to competing with the Miatas, but they can be beaten. There are two things that will help you get closer to the top of your class, tires and seat time.

If you have decided that you are going to continue spending your weekends standing around in parking lots, get some good tires. There are a lot of different options. Ask the question and you will receive multiple opinions.

Then, you need some experience. It's nice that you want to compete with the Miatas, but you don't even know the limits of your car yet. Go to as many AXs as you can. Push yourself and your car. If you haven't spun your car yet, you're not close to the limit.

If you are really serious about this, see if you can sign up for an http://www.autocross.com/evolution/. Lots and lots of seat time and excellent instruction.

Posted by: porschenut Apr 24 2006, 04:59 AM

I don't think you will ever beat them, best I could do was middle of the pack. Any given driver with AX experience will be faster in the Miata. Sorry, just my opinion. AXed against them for two years in my 914.
If the 914 were inherently faster, you would see them in the results for AX nationals.

Posted by: Part Pricer Apr 24 2006, 05:10 AM

That I have to disagree with. Being a stock class where any mods are extremely limited, the 914 and Miata are very evenly matched and that's the way classes should work. I ran against those pesky Miatas for a couple of years and always came away shaking my head convinced that I could never compete with technology that was 30 years more up-to-date. Then, eventually getting experience paid off. I would routinely finish first or second in my class (against all Miatas).

I don't think anyone ever said that the 914 is "inherently faster". It is an equal platform.

Posted by: blitZ Apr 24 2006, 05:48 AM

Thanks for all of the responses as it's all encouraging. Fortunately, the only illegal change I've made to the car is the rear springs which will be easy to remedy. I'll stick my rear sway bar back on and get some good tires as suggested. Then just enter as many events as I can. The group here also offers some Driver Development Clinics which may be worthwhile.

This was my first time so I wasn't really pushing the car, I was mostly trying to find my way through the sea of cones. Don't think I even squealed a tire.

There are two Evolution classes coming up this summer, I'll check them out, thanks.

Jun 10 Novice School & Evolution Phase 1

Reading over the Stock Class rules, all replacement parts have to OEM or equivilent? No turbo tie rods or bump steer kit?

Posted by: Richard Casto Apr 24 2006, 08:05 AM

Les,

Just to pile on...

1. Determine what your goals are. ( a ) Have Fun? ( b ) Win? ( c ) Both? I would focus on (a) first and then decide about the others.
2. Seat time is going to make you faster. I would consider that prior to buying expensive "DOT R" tires. Start with some decent street tires like Falken Azenis. I absolutely recomment the Evolution School mentiond above. I have gone through their Phase 1 and Phase 2 schools and it is the real deal in going faster.
2. Running legally in Stock class in a 914 is going to be a commitment. Right now if you are 10 seconds back and illegal (slightly) you may not get comments from other CS drivers. If you start to challenge for trophies, they will start paying attention to your car. Even at the local level. Running stock can be pretty restrictive. Especially with the number of "upgrades" that are available to the 914. SCCA has their Solo rulebook online as a PDF. http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/2006_solo_rules.pdf
3. Every car can't be equally competative in a particular class. There generally seems to be one or two cars that bubble up. Sometimes even within a specific car (i.e. Miata) there is a desired year and option package. Especially in the "Stock" world. So with all things being equal, it may be hard to beat them. However, with the variability of local events (different prep level, driver ability, etc.) anything can happen. This should really only be a factor is you are out to "win". Which as mentioned earlier can be a slippery slope/money pit.

Good luck and have fun!

Posted by: jhadler Apr 24 2006, 01:25 PM

Okay, gotta toss my $0.04 in here...

The first thing to ask is what do you want to do? Do you want to just play, and have fun? Or are your goals a little more ambitious? Do you want to win the local class? Do you want to compete Nationally?

In SCCA autox (as people have said already), there is little you can do in the stock classes. Good shocks (you may want to go to adjustables), and a good alignment will make a huge diference in the car, and are legal. Yup, gotta go back to the stock (75 lb) springs if you want to stay totally legal for stock class. And yes, tires are a must. You can't roll the fenders (much... ), but a 205/50-15 will fit on a 4 lug Fuchs alloy under stock fenders.

Yes, SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME. Will get you a whole heck of a lot closer to the Miatae. The suggestion of the Evo school is a very good one. I've done the Evo program and I think it's excellent. Phase I is great for people who've only been at it a little while, so an experienced autoxer may have to just wade through it. It's still good though, the split times are a great way to dial in on a single feature. Phase II and II are really great! I'd atke Phase II over at least one more time, if not more. It really focuses on the mental aspect, which is key.

Okay, back to the first questions...

If all you want to do if play around and have fun. Then it really doesn't matter. Set your car up with whatever you like, and play in whatever class it fits into. Judge your progress against the consistent front runners.

If what you want to do is to compete locally, and win the season championship. You need to do a few things. One is practice, A LOT. Two, is get your car set up as well as you can within the rules (READ THE RULES). An agressive alignment, some good adjustable shocks, a good adjustable front sway bar, and fresh race tires are just the start. And three (this leads us to the next answer as well), compete in a region that doesn't have any National champions running in your class....

If you want to take a 914 to Nationals and win, good luck. It has been tried, and tried, and tried. And by some of the best drivers in the country. The 914's day is done on the National Stock-Class scene. The Miatae are just too well engineered, too powerfull, and too darn quick around the cones to leave room for the venerable 914.

Yes, a well prepared and well piloted 914 might win locally, but Nationally, there's not chance of beating the Miatae and MR-Spyders.

One of the other reasons why you won't see 914's on the National scene in stock classes anymore is that too many 914s won in the 80's and early 90's. And they beat the 1.6 Miatae handilly. But the 1.8L with limited slip diff's were a tough act to beat. And now there are a lot of people who know -exactly- how to protest a 914 out. The rear springs are the weak link. You have to have the stock weight, and height springs. The problem is twofold. One, the stock rear springs are -really- soft. And two, because they're so soft, they sag. And when your car is measured to be below stock ride height, it's generally consered to be illegal. There was a saying... There is no such thing as a "Stock class" legal 914 anymore...

Now, having said all that... There is no reason in the world you can't take you 914 as is, and have an absolure balst at the autoxes. Look up Ben Thatcher. I think he still runs in that region. He used to run a teener as well. He could give you some good pointers at the event. As for stock? Well, there -are- other classes. The 914 is not done in SCCA. Just in stock. DSP is still a good place to play. And you get to play with springs and all that too. Which is still legal in PCA stock classes...And if you feel like digging a hole in the garage and pouring all your money into it. The prepared and modified classes are still really fun places to take a 914.

Yeah, the best part of the 914 is that is so rewarding at the autox. The problem with the SCCA is that they have to cater to ALL makes and models. So new replaces old in the stock categories. But PCA has a class JUST for you. I even think there's a seperate class just for orange 1973 2.0L 914's...

Anyway, I've rambled on here a bit too much. The short answer is this: If all you want to do is, play, have fun, and improve your skills. Then it really doesn't matter what class your car falls into. If you want to win, you've got to have all the angles covered. And if you want to win Nationally, you just gotta have the right car for the right class. At least in the stock categories...

-Josh2