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Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 01:43 PM

Here it is. Total seperation

Let's talk about it


KT


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Posted by: Andyrew Apr 24 2006, 01:47 PM

Ouch!

looks like bad weld penetration right there...
two pieces of metal should never break right on the weld.. if it was welded correctly....

Posted by: Part Pricer Apr 24 2006, 01:51 PM

So we can be sure that we're looking at the same thing, this is the same mount right?




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Posted by: LvSteveH Apr 24 2006, 01:56 PM

They are way too big to be having stuff like this happen, and on multiple occasions no less. It's so much better to over engineer and over build from a safety and liability standpoint. Not to mention reputation.

In this case, the execution is very poor. They probably welded it and ground it clean for appearance. The initial weld didn't penetrate, and they cleaned off the only part that had any strength to it. On a structural application, I would be very reluctant to grind a weld for the sake of appearance. To me there is nothing prettier than a nice, clean, properly laid weld. That entire seam should have been welded on one side, with at least 1" welds spaced 1" apart on the other side. Personally, I'd weld it on both sides if there is room.

There is absolutely no excuse for that.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 02:01 PM

Nope, the other one.

KT

Posted by: john rogers Apr 24 2006, 02:03 PM

Did both sides rip loose. That is the first one of his new ones I have seem fail as a lot of the vintage racers are using them and no failures so far.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 02:05 PM

here's the bar from the website

KT


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Posted by: Series9 Apr 24 2006, 02:08 PM

Do you know the year yours was made?

Mine is the 'newer model', but I do keep an eye on it.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 24 2006, 02:14 PM

I have a couple of ideas to reinforce it. I may need to do so on mine someday.

If you send it to me, I'll fix it for you for free.

Posted by: nine14cats Apr 24 2006, 02:15 PM

Trekkor bought this mount from me. It is the new style that Jim Patrick sold to me to cure my previous issues with the older bar.

The failure looks the same as my original failure.

Sorry Trek.....

As John says, this is the first of the new style mounts that I have heard about failing.

It's hard to believe that it would be overstressed with the torque of your 2.0/2.2 liter. Something else caused this.

Bill P.

Posted by: iamchappy Apr 24 2006, 02:18 PM

Those quick mounts have had a history of breaking.

Posted by: lapuwali Apr 24 2006, 02:20 PM

Gee, that looks like I welded it...

It's strange that there's even a weld there. A stronger, and cheaper, way to fabricate that part would be to have the whole part other than the bar made as one pressed piece. This would be very unlikely to break, and even if the welds to attach it to the bar broke, they'd be resting on the bar. Lots of clunking noises, but nothing would fall down.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 02:26 PM

I don't know the year. But it is a total failure.

More pics...


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Posted by: Engman Apr 24 2006, 02:28 PM

Paging Mike Z.

Paging Mike Z.




M

Posted by: Series9 Apr 24 2006, 02:30 PM

There no penetration in that weld.

Seriously, send it to me. I'd like to give it a try.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 02:34 PM

I've been looking foward to Mikey's pleasant and dignified response to this since it happened.

Pretty sad when you are under a car and see this and the first thing that pops into your head is "Zois". ( in the Seinfeld voice, just like when he says, "Newman" )


KT


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Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 02:37 PM

Thanks Joe, I'll keep you in mind. really nice of you.

My buddy might just be willing to drive up with his truck mounted welding rig and fix it on site. : welder:

It has to come out of the car to be repaired properly, I can see that very clearly.


KT

Posted by: LvSteveH Apr 24 2006, 02:38 PM

My laptop screen isn't the best, but it looks like it was welded on the inside. A nice filet weld around there should be super strong, someone just had no idea what they were doing. That's one of the dangerous things about Mig, it can look ok, and have no strength to it. When you are welding, it's plain as day when you get good penetration if you know what to look for. I don't think it needs to be beefed up so much as done properly.

on edit: I'd like to see them use a little thicker plate too, if we're being picky.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 24 2006, 02:39 PM

I just emailed pictures to Jim.

We'll see what happens.

Posted by: Series9 Apr 24 2006, 02:42 PM

Besides just welding, it should be stress relieved in an oven.

I have access to an oven that could do the job.

Posted by: nine14cats Apr 24 2006, 02:45 PM

Trekkor,

This failure is much worse than mine was. I still had weld contact on the bar. Your's is a complete failure.

Glad to hear you are thinking of taking it out. You won't be able to do it right in the car. Pull the motor and clean it up.

Bummer dude....

Bill P.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 24 2006, 02:49 PM

QUOTE(Part Pricer @ Apr 24 2006, 12:51 PM)

Posted by: McMark Apr 24 2006, 02:52 PM

Duct TAPE!

Sucks Trekkor. I'm sure the fixed version will work fine.

You need a smaller motor. Build a nice 1600 cc six cylinder.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 02:53 PM

Posted by: jhadler Apr 24 2006, 03:00 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 12:53 PM)

QUOTE

I just emailed pictures to Jim.

Me too...


wonder what they're talking about?

I called them a couple of hours ago.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 24 2006, 03:06 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Apr 24 2006, 02:00 PM)

Posted by: jhadler Apr 24 2006, 03:10 PM

Wow Andy, that's a pretty vivid description... I take it it's a first hand experience?

-Josh2

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Apr 24 2006, 01:06 PM)

QUOTE(jhadler @ Apr 24 2006, 02:00 PM)

I hate to think what would have happened if it got all the way loose...

the tranny "ears" will snap off and the whole combo falls down on the concrete, the front of the motor get's stuck on one of the seams between the concrete slabs and your axles and rear suspension get ripped off the tub, that back of the car is going to jump high up in the air and the car comes down to a halt about 30 feet in front of your engine, transmission and axles.

Andy

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 03:12 PM

That would have been "a problem".

"Alameda, we have a problem".


I'm thinking about working on it NOW, as it is just hanging there on the trailer.


KT


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Posted by: SirAndy Apr 24 2006, 03:18 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Apr 24 2006, 02:10 PM)

Posted by: Porcharu Apr 24 2006, 03:21 PM

Where are the welds? Looks like they forgot to weld it up. I just fixed a goof I made on my tubing bender that only involved 4 inches of weld and it was a major PITA to get those 2 pieces of steel separated. Lots of grinding and pounding with a BFH

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 01:26 PM)

I don't know the year. But it is a total failure.

More pics...

Posted by: john rogers Apr 24 2006, 03:31 PM

I read the posts through several times and am still confused? Is this the early mount that uses the 4 cylinder mount ears or the later one that bolts to the bulkhead? The early design was flawed due to the long/bent tubes that allow the engine to twist and move and it is worse on a track car since the rear part of the car where the tranny is bolted is moving too. If it was the early one, I'd get rid of it.

As a side note, when the shop put the six in my race car, we used an empty 2L block and tranny to test fit things. When doing this the trand mounts were found to be off about 5/16 inch to one side and were modified so the engine was bolted in with no stress on the mounts, front and rear. You might want to consider checking that when things get calmed down and you have some time?

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Apr 24 2006, 03:38 PM

Dude! I can not believe they let that mount out of the shop

like that. Your really lucky that nothing worse happened, you must
have been four leaf clovers when that happened.

That's just wrong...

Posted by: nine14cats Apr 24 2006, 03:46 PM

John,

Trekkor bought the mount in his car from me. It is the 2nd generation crossbar mount that supposedly addressed the cracking issue of the Gen I crossbar mounts. I had rewelded the old Gen I mount and was still running it in our old 914-6 when I sold it. Jim Patrick had given me a discount on the Gen II crossbar mount because he did not like the welding being done on the Gen I mount as per Demick's explaination.

I also bought the PMS bulkhead mount and would have sold that to Trekkor when I bought The Beast (which has the RJ mount already), but I had sold the bulkhead mount and I had not found any mention of failures with the Gen II mounts.

I'm just blown away that the whole mount came undone.

Bill P.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 03:54 PM

And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached????

What was that, did someone say bulkhead?

Posted by: Rand Apr 24 2006, 04:04 PM

I don't understand why the idea of upgrading to a bulkhead mount keeps getting brushed off either. Is there a disadvantage to it?

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 24 2006, 04:04 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Apr 24 2006, 02:00 PM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 12:53 PM)

QUOTE

I just emailed pictures to Jim.

Me too...


wonder what they're talking about?

I called them a couple of hours ago.


KT

If they're a good shop, they're probably talking about how to make you happy. Maybe offering to ship you a new bar and help pay for installation at a shop maybe? Just a guess, but a new bar should be on the table I'd think. That's not just a minor crack or anything. That's a near-miss lawsuit. A new mount would be a lot cheaper than a court date...

Only catch is you didn't buy it from them... Hmmm, tough one...

Trekkor, that sucks. It's a good thing it landed on the shift linkage, I hate to think what would have happened if it got all the way loose...

-Josh2

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 24 2006, 04:05 PM

Guys, come on.........
I did my 6 conversion in about 98....pre internet days for me.
At the time, it was widely held that NONE of the bar type mounts
were worth a shit. I had to get a Vellious bulkhead mount as RJ didn't have his done yet.....and wouldn't settle for less NOW......the effin' internet didn't fix them fuchin' pieces of crap......just more bullshit for the acceptability of them.

Zois is not always right, but he's spot on with these.....IMO.

The good news is he's not one to say "I told you so"

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 24 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE(Rand @ Apr 24 2006, 03:04 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 04:14 PM

Jim Patrick called me back and said he has never seen his product fail like this.
He was very nice to speak with. I think he was kinda shocked.
He doesn't think think I should attempt a repair.

He has requested more pics.

Sent them.

We'll see...




KT

Posted by: john rogers Apr 24 2006, 04:19 PM

Thanks for the reply Bill. I didn't remember there being two generations of the 1st generation mount? Guess I am getting old!

Posted by: McMark Apr 24 2006, 04:19 PM

Post the new pics please.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 24 2006, 04:21 PM

QUOTE(john rogers @ Apr 24 2006, 02:31 PM)

Posted by: jhadler Apr 24 2006, 04:22 PM

<best aussie accent> Good on ya mate!!

I think Jim is pretty on there. If the mount failed that badly, what other welds and/or materials are also suspect?

Yeah, that sucker's got to go. It's done. Seein' as you were gonna have to pull the motor to repair it anyway, might as well put a new mount in properly. After reading Andy's eye-witness account of a total failure, I'd pay for the peace of mind. Kindof like a friend of mine's comment about buying single layer nomex/proban driving suits. "The first time you see someone on fire, that three layer nomex suit gets REALLY affordable REALLY quickly...".

-Josh2

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 04:30 PM

The pics are nothing special.
he wanted to make sure the the bar at it's lowest points, under the stock mount location, didn't strike something.

That's the only explanation of such a failure he could think of.
There are some light scratches on there, prolly from the install in my driveway.


KT

Posted by: TimT Apr 24 2006, 04:31 PM

Engine/tranny mount failure

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 04:32 PM

QUOTE(TimT @ Apr 24 2006, 03:31 PM)

Engine/tranny mount failure

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 04:36 PM

the pic.

Not mount failure. Bar hitting something hard enough to rip it from the mount plate.

I would have remembered that


KT


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Posted by: nine14cats Apr 24 2006, 04:42 PM

Trekkor,

I've always had great dealings with Jim Patrick on his products. I hope things turn out for you okay.

I really think you should go for his wallmount bar. But it's just my opinion.

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 04:50 PM

"Wal-Mart" bar

KT

Posted by: LvSteveH Apr 24 2006, 04:51 PM

No offense, but there is no need for any other pictures. That is a manufacturing failure, pure and simple. Even if you hit something, and bent the bar in two, it should never have separated like that........... never. If the weld tore away at the heat affected zone, then you've reached the limit of your materials and you'd see that very clearly. That point of failure would be many times that ever experienced in actual use.

I wonder who PMS has doing their assembly, because they have some "esplainin" to do.

Posted by: brant Apr 24 2006, 04:54 PM

QUOTE(john rogers @ Apr 24 2006, 01:03 PM)

Posted by: Randal Apr 24 2006, 05:10 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 02:12 PM)

That would have been "a problem".

"Alameda, we have a problem".


I'm thinking about working on it NOW, as it is just hanging there on the trailer.


KT

Posted by: Randal Apr 24 2006, 05:14 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 03:32 PM)

QUOTE(TimT @ Apr 24 2006, 03:31 PM)

Engine/tranny mount failure

OUCH!

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 05:15 PM

On the list


KT

Posted by: repro914gt Apr 24 2006, 05:23 PM

Holy SH*T!

My newly purchased conversion has the PMS has the quick six mount (not the bulkhead mount). I am going to jack it up tonight and check it out!

Man o Man!

Posted by: Mueller Apr 24 2006, 05:28 PM

QUOTE(repro914gt @ Apr 24 2006, 04:23 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 05:33 PM

We talked about that


KT

Posted by: brant Apr 24 2006, 05:43 PM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Apr 24 2006, 04:28 PM)

QUOTE(repro914gt @ Apr 24 2006, 04:23 PM)

Holy SH*T!
My newly purchased conversion has the PMS has the quick six mount (not the bulkhead mount). I am going to jack it up tonight and check it out!
Man o Man!

Rumor is that as part of the Correction Action Report, all customers that currently own the old style engine mount will be supplied with the following item to keep motor off of pavement in case of mount failure Available at Home Depot if you cannot find your original reciept.....

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 06:05 PM

I just want a reliable mount.

Jim wants me to send him my broken one ASAP so we can work out a deal that will allow me to run the next a/x in two weeks.

He has a lot of experience, I can see that.
I don't want to slam anybody.

If a new bar mount will work, I'm happy.


KT


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Posted by: nine14cats Apr 24 2006, 06:14 PM

Hi Trekkor,

Send Jim your mount. At the very least he can work with manufacturing on the failure analysis. I'd still go wall mount if you can wheel and deal for one.

Bill P.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 06:53 PM

I guess I need a break from wrenching.

If he sends me a new bar mount, I might be able to reinstall it without all the motor/trans drop and all that.

the firewall mount in any brand is going to require a ton of work.

maybe I should pace myself, skip the a/x in two weeks, set my sights on May 26th at Thill instead.

it's a bummer, that much i know.


KT

Posted by: racergreg Apr 24 2006, 07:18 PM

Just a word from a satisfied customer...

I have purchased almost all of my -6 conversion parts from Patrick Motorsports. They have all been very high quality and are performing well. Jim P. has been very responsive and attentive to my questions and orders.

I'll put in yet another plug for the firewall mount, though. It's simple and beefy, and I think a much better solution for a track car.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 07:29 PM

Easy boys.....

Bill, maybe you aren't the one who should be trying to lift his spirits, what with your recent Burb break in and the ongoing saga of the "beast"

Hang in there Trek. A good solution will come your way. PMS may even sell you a bulkhead mount cheap....Or better yet, get the stock mount from Grant.
I ran my 2.7RS-6 using the stock 6 mount for 5 years of track and AX duty with no issues what so ever.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 07:57 PM

OK, thanks for the laughs.

I was out side wrenching for a hour or so. ( it's OK )

Got the car off the trailer and up on stands and the engine supported back to the normal position.

Let's talk...

First, this design is good, and I have always like it due to it's simplicity and multiple bolt points, SIX.

The motor CAN NOT fall out...even with this catostrophic failure.

Here's why:

There is a cradle that the plate to motor bolts catch on. It only dropped 3/4".
The bolts would both have to shear off for it to fall! That doesn't happen.

Have a look!

KT


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Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 24 2006, 08:04 PM

i just dont see why you bother with a BAR mount.

it seems like the half ass way to go - yes, a wall mount will take longer to get in - and the PMS will allow it to swivel down for repairs (good idea!) so why bother futzing with another bar but it wont break.......

DO IT ONCE>DO IT RIGHT

my .02

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 08:06 PM

Now on the the root cause of the failure.

POOR WELDING

I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level.
My battery tray has more integrity.

The pictures don't do this low level of workmanship justice.

I promise to anyone you require. If I would have struck this part with a 5#hammer ONE time it would have broke.

Take a look ( If you can )


KT


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Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 08:07 PM

I can see your point there Trekkor. From your pic it appears that those bolts would need to shear or bend to allow the engine to completely fall....
With that being said....the way that piece separated is really scary and a bit depressing. If the piece was truely welded inside and out along its complete perimeter, then how in the hell did the thing completely separate. You would expect to see some of the metal torn or bent in some way. Instead you see nothing but two basically clean pieces of metal. Very strange....It was almost as if the two pieces were never really completely joined by a good penetrating weld.
I agree with an earlier post that this portion should have been made from one piece of metal and then it would be resting on the bar if the weld came loose...no way for the motor to move down....only slight side to side movement.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 08:10 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 07:06 PM)

Now on the the root cause of the failure.

POOR WELDING

I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level.
My battery tray has more integrity.

The pictures don't do this low level of workmanship justice.

I promise to anyone you require. If I would have struck this part with a 5#hammer ONE time it would have broke.smash:

Take a look ( If you can )


KT

Posted by: bryanc Apr 24 2006, 08:11 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 07:06 PM)

Now on the the root cause of the failure.

POOR WELDING

I'm sorry, but this welding is not acceptable on any level.
My battery tray has more integrity.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 08:26 PM

It gets better ( I mean worse )

Please be seated

Look at all three sides of the mount plate itself.
"Where's the Bead?!?"


KT




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Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 08:32 PM

Looks like a few tac welds to me... definitely not fully perimeter welded inside and out

PMS should be ing there collective pants right now.

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 08:34 PM

NO penetration there...

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 08:44 PM

I talked to my welding buddy a few minutes ago.

Say what you want, this IS the voice of experience, all his 32 years of it.

He said it can be stick welded back together with 7018 welding rod and no heat treating is required. He spit out some multi thousand PSI of tensile strengh. He will likely put it back together in my driveway on wednesday. I'll have him go over ALL the welds and check it carefully.

I trust this man with my life- period.


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 08:50 PM

I have no doubt that a journeyman welder can put this back together much better than it was before....like it should have been in the first place

My grandfather was a journeyman welder (he taught me when I was 12) and he could stick any two pieces of metal togther just about....

You are lucky to have a good friend with that kind of skill.
Make sure to take some pics during the welding and after it is completed. Will make a good primer for PMS.

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 24 2006, 08:56 PM

Here is mine.


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Posted by: bd1308 Apr 24 2006, 09:01 PM

shoo thank goodness I have a FOUR.

b

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 09:01 PM

That looks so much better.
Mine looks like they forgot to weld it.


KT

Posted by: MEMtheMercifull Apr 24 2006, 09:04 PM

I think i could get better penitration with a twelve volt battery and some coat hanger ! Can anybody say quality control ? Or perhaps faulty design ? Or not !
OOOpppss That's just an opinion folks , and they vary ! don't cha know !!

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 24 2006, 09:04 PM

QUOTE(bd1308 @ Apr 24 2006, 08:01 PM)

Posted by: MEMtheMercifull Apr 24 2006, 09:06 PM

QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Apr 24 2006, 01:38 PM)

Posted by: MEMtheMercifull Apr 24 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 01:37 PM)

Thanks Joe, I'll keep you in mind. really nice of you.

My buddy might just be willing to drive up with his truck mounted welding rig and fix it on site. : welder:

It has to come out of the car to be repaired properly, I can see that very clearly.


KT

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 09:09 PM

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 24 2006, 09:10 PM

Ahem......


Gee, I don't know what to say......besides....

Ahem......
Hack, cough.......


PMS sucks.....

Sorry to see it happen but this is nothing new with this guy.

Posted by: banksyinoz Apr 24 2006, 09:12 PM

i would have to say that only god himself could help what will happen to the person responsible for that !!!!
WHAT WAS IT A 15 YEAROLD KID
damn who quality assures this product if its got my name on it i wanna check it, its my gettin kicked

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 09:16 PM

I knew I could count on you Mikey.

Posted by: joea9146 Apr 24 2006, 09:28 PM

To save on costs the Bars are not welded, they use JB weld to hold them together.... On second thought if they did use JB weld u may not have had the problem...

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 24 2006, 09:32 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 08:16 PM)

I knew I could count on you Mikey.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 09:39 PM

If my welder gives it the thumbs up, I'm gud to go.


KT

Posted by: LvSteveH Apr 24 2006, 10:56 PM

QUOTE(MEMtheMercifull @ Apr 24 2006, 08:06 PM)

QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Apr 24 2006, 01:38 PM)

My laptop screen isn't the best, but it looks like it was welded on the inside. A nice filet weld around there should be super strong, someone just had no idea what they were doing. That's one of the dangerous things about Mig, it can look ok, and have no strength to it. When you are welding, it's plain as day when you get good penetration if you know what to look for. I don't think it needs to be beefed up so much as done properly.

on edit: I'd like to see them use a little thicker plate too, if we're being picky.

I beg to differ if you know what your doing mig welding is just fine ( Key action words being " Know what your doing "

Posted by: trekkor Apr 24 2006, 11:01 PM

Well put


KT

Posted by: Engman Apr 24 2006, 11:09 PM

Jeeeezzzzz


Mikey - took ya long enough!

M

Posted by: Jeroen Apr 25 2006, 05:01 AM

I don't mean to rub it in in any way, but look at the welds on an RJ bulk head mount
Those are prolly the most beautiful TIG welds you'd ever see

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 25 2006, 07:32 AM

QUOTE(Jeroen @ Apr 25 2006, 04:01 AM)

Posted by: Racer Chris Apr 25 2006, 07:44 AM

QUOTE(Series9 @ Apr 24 2006, 04:42 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 10:18 AM

I've had several contacts with Jim at PMS now to resolve this problem both on the phone and in E-mail. He is not dodging me or minimizing the failure.

Please understand that my goal is to get my car back on the road, not tear somebody down.
Jim is concerned with this part failure, you can be sure.

My other goal is to alert him to the poor quality weld work that may be slipping past any quality control that may be in place.

If my car gets back on the road and he can improve his product for future drivers, then all is well.

Sure, I'm mad about the welds and the potential risk I faced and the down time to fix the car.
I'm not mad at Jim. He has made it very clear that he wants to resolve this with me ASAP so I can make my a/x on May 6th.

Support the vendors,

KT

Posted by: Tom Perso Apr 25 2006, 10:28 AM

I think any person who has a part failure has every right to show the issue to the vendor. Of course, the intent is to not rub in the failure, but to point out a flaw to help improve their process.

I hope the vendor takes your positive critisism to heart.

Regardless, sounds like you've got the issue taken care of KT...

Tom

Posted by: Porcharu Apr 25 2006, 10:39 AM

Like I said before. Where's the weld? I bet this was a Friday afternoon job - it got tacked together late Friday and then packed up and painted with the rest of the finished mounts on Monday morning.
I'm sure I don't need to say this but - you need to do your own CQ on anything you buy if it's failure would be bad.

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 24 2006, 07:26 PM)

It gets better ( I mean worse )

Please be seated

Look at all three sides of the mount plate itself.
"Where's the Bead?!?"


KT

Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:52 AM

> Jim Patrick called me back and said he has never
> seen his product fail like this. He was very nice to
> speak with. I think he was inda shocked.

What is he talking about?!?! This bar fails all the time. I know he's heard of many, including mine several years ago. Why is he still selling these?

-Steve




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Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:52 AM

more



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Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:53 AM

914


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Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:53 AM

914


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Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:53 AM

914


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Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2006, 10:54 AM

roasted P. Motorsports

Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:54 AM

914



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Posted by: siverson Apr 25 2006, 10:57 AM

He refused to replace it under warranty or offer any sort of credit so it was the last part I've bought from him (after having spent $000s there).

You guys should all really use a bulkhead mount. It's the only way to do it right and the Rich Johnson mount is awesome.

-Steve

Posted by: Rand Apr 25 2006, 11:04 AM

Wow. It's clear in those photos that welding problems are only part of the picture. That failure is an engineering flaw.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:06 AM

PMS's wall mount uses the same cradle mounting flange as the bar mount

Those last pics really burn me up.


KT

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 25 2006, 11:09 AM

He's still selling them because there are people still willing to buy them. There are ALWAYS people looking for a shortcut, and are unaware of the pitfalls therein. The Cap'n

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:12 AM

What to do, what to do?

KT

Posted by: Rand Apr 25 2006, 11:16 AM

http://www.914conversions.com/html/mount.html

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 25 2006, 11:25 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 10:06 AM)

Posted by: fiid Apr 25 2006, 11:26 AM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM)

And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached????

What was that, did someone say bulkhead?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:27 AM

Thanks for the link.

I am thinking of a way to prevent the bar from moving foward and thus rotating downward.

If I can fab up a bracket that would be attatched to the firewall so the bar would be stabilized, I may be able to continue.


KT

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2006, 11:29 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 10:12 AM)

Posted by: brant Apr 25 2006, 11:35 AM

[/quote]
If anything I would think that PMS wall mount would be more prone to having failure due to it being more rigid than the bar and same engine mounting flange as the bar.
[/quote]


I don't know...
the wall mount is under different forces.
the bar going forward and flexing up/down is a very very different force

brant

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2006, 11:36 AM

[quote name='brant' date='Apr 25 2006, 10:35 AM' post='667367']
[/quote]
If anything I would think that PMS wall mount would be more prone to having failure due to it being more rigid than the bar and same engine mounting flange as the bar.
[/quote]


I don't know...
the wall mount is under different forces.
the bar going forward and flexing up/down is a very very different force

brant
[/quote]


and it has bushings to take up some of the forces.....

Posted by: fiid Apr 25 2006, 11:36 AM

The pictures of the Patrick bar illustrate IMHO that it's a pretty crappy design - it puts a lot of force on one section of the bar in torsion... It seems like there is little or no triangulation of this on particular section.

I've tried to illustrate this:





Attached image(s)

Posted by: fiid Apr 25 2006, 11:42 AM

Hmm - this problem looks similar!

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 25 2006, 11:43 AM

i know i'm beating a and grant already hates me, but trek, common, you spent more on GAS to get to the track and back in one weekend than it would cost you to get the Rich Johnson Bulkhead mount.

the RJ mount is extremely sturdy and even allows for two 911 sport mounts to relieve some of that force.

all i ask is that you *think* about it ...
Andy

http://www.914conversions.com/html/mount.html

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 25 2006, 11:44 AM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Apr 25 2006, 10:43 AM)

i know i'm beating a and grant already hates me, but trek, common, you spent more on GAS to get to the track and back in one weekend than it would cost you to get the Rich Johnson Bulkhead mount.

the RJ mount is extremely sturdy and even allows for two 911 sport mounts to relieve some of that force.

all i ask is that you *think* about it ...
Andy

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:49 AM

I am thinking about it.

Very seriously...


KT


( Grant likes to tweak people. He's harmless )

Posted by: URY914 Apr 25 2006, 11:58 AM

The problem with those welds is -no penetration!

I have the same problem, but that's a different story.

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 25 2006, 05:04 PM

Just spent time this afternoon talking with Rich Johnson. He is a great guy! Very knowledgable and sounds like he has gone through some development to get his mount to its current design state.

I just placed my order! I highly reccomend anyone planning to go this route to speak with Rich.

Now I have to build up the courage to drop the engine and take this one on myself!

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 25 2006, 05:54 PM

QUOTE(fiid @ Apr 25 2006, 10:26 AM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM)

And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached????

What was that, did someone say bulkhead?

I think Trekkor has heard that by now; have you read the rest of the threads? Talk about


I didn't realise (didn't spend much time thinking about it ) that the quick-6 bars had to come so far forward to mount to the motor. We have the same problems with the subaru mountings because the subaru engine mounts are at the back of the motor - causing the same problem in the other direction.

It's impossible to even make it work without additional support on the subie motor because the distance is even further away from the stock bar location than it is with a quick six, and the subie motor only has two mount bolts - so there's no resistance to the flex. I tried this setup and the motor could bounce about 4-5 inches. Because I have removed a good portion of my trunk floor I was able to catch this by standing on the tranny and bouncing up and down to check the strengh of the mount - which is not possible with a regular 6 or 4 setup.

Posted by: Headrage Apr 25 2006, 06:00 PM

Really sorry to hear about the failure Trek. I was under my car tonight and noticed that even though I have the firewall mount, it's only welded in a few places.

Posted by: 9146986 Apr 25 2006, 07:15 PM

I don't have to whip the dead horse. I told the Trekmeister a long time ago to go with a bulkhead mount, gave him a good price too. "but I got a good deal on a Patrick quick bar", um care to guess why it seemed like a good deal???? Sorry Trekkor, live and learn eh????

I hate to admit that I installed one of those things (before I knew better), but as of yet, it's doing OK with a 3.0. Time will tell.

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 25 2006, 07:36 PM

QUOTE(Engman @ Apr 24 2006, 10:09 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 07:42 PM

When I talked to Jim Patrick he said they can and do handle up to 3.6's.

It seems the chromoly tubing may be the root cause of the problem.
Regular tube steel and thicker gusseting with thick quality welds seem like the issue would be settled for all time.

KT

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 25 2006, 07:55 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 06:42 PM)

Posted by: TimT Apr 25 2006, 07:59 PM

FWIW, on our 935 we have broke the rear motor mount in the "cradle" more than once. Its now part of a pre track inspection, to check the motor mounts for cracks.

but thats a horse of a different color, just added that to extend this thread even more

Posted by: Randal Apr 25 2006, 08:27 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 04:54 PM)

QUOTE(fiid @ Apr 25 2006, 10:26 AM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM)

And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached????

What was that, did someone say bulkhead?

I think Trekkor has heard that by now; have you read the rest of the threads? Talk about


I didn't realise (didn't spend much time thinking about it ) that the quick-6 bars had to come so far forward to mount to the motor. We have the same problems with the subaru mountings because the subaru engine mounts are at the back of the motor - causing the same problem in the other direction.

It's impossible to even make it work without additional support on the subie motor because the distance is even further away from the stock bar location than it is with a quick six, and the subie motor only has two mount bolts - so there's no resistance to the flex. I tried this setup and the motor could bounce about 4-5 inches. Because I have removed a good portion of my trunk floor I was able to catch this by standing on the tranny and bouncing up and down to check the strengh of the mount - which is not possible with a regular 6 or 4 setup.

yes I read the entire thread, I believe that post was fairly early on in the progress of this thread.....and I will continue to urge Trekkor and anyone else doing a conversion of any type to use a more tried and true method for attaching the motor to the chassis....if this happens to be a dead horse then I am sorry.
As I said about some other modifications that folks are doing to their 914s if it was good enough for the factory.....
Bulkhead mount the only way to go

Now go back to Subie land....

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 25 2006, 08:42 PM

At the major chance of

Thank you Mr. Safety.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 09:08 PM

Mr. Safety is my friend.

Although, after I over engineer the failed bar, we may have a differance of opinions :cool:

If my welder gives me the thumbs down...Well then. That's that.

We'll do pics of the welding and all that for a certainty.

Whatever comes of this, I'll send PMS my results for his own development decisions.

Do I send him the link to this thread as well?


KT

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 09:10 PM

That poor horse has really taken a beating this go around hasn't he?

Poor dead little guy...


KT

Posted by: bryanc Apr 25 2006, 09:14 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 08:08 PM)

Mr. Safety is my friend.

Although, after I over engineer the failed bar, we may have a differance of opinions :cool:

If my welder gives me the thumbs down...Well then. That's that.

We'll do pics of the welding and all that for a certainty.

Whatever comes of this, I'll send PMS my results for his own development decisions.

Do I send him the link to this thread as well?


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 25 2006, 09:17 PM

Trekkor, hope your welder buddy has some good news for you.

I see the problem with the PMS bulkhead mount is that it has the same basic design for the connection to the motor. Although there should be less torsional stress on the bar due to it being mounted infront of the motor instead of behind the front of the motor.
Still, what failed on Trekkors was the mount bracket to the motor, and that portion is the same.
No easy answers here as far as PMS is concerned.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 09:31 PM

Posted by: brant Apr 25 2006, 09:41 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 08:17 PM)

Posted by: jhadler Apr 25 2006, 09:42 PM

Just keep in mind that you want to do this as long as you can, and if the motor rips out of the car catastrophically, you'll be down a lot longer, and the repair will cost way more than a new motor mount...

Eye on the prize...

-Josh2

Posted by: fiid Apr 25 2006, 10:05 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 04:54 PM)

QUOTE(fiid @ Apr 25 2006, 10:26 AM)

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 24 2006, 02:54 PM)

And how was it again, that the factory 6 engine mount was attached????

What was that, did someone say bulkhead?

I think Trekkor has heard that by now; have you read the rest of the threads? Talk about


I didn't realise (didn't spend much time thinking about it ) that the quick-6 bars had to come so far forward to mount to the motor. We have the same problems with the subaru mountings because the subaru engine mounts are at the back of the motor - causing the same problem in the other direction.

It's impossible to even make it work without additional support on the subie motor because the distance is even further away from the stock bar location than it is with a quick six, and the subie motor only has two mount bolts - so there's no resistance to the flex. I tried this setup and the motor could bounce about 4-5 inches. Because I have removed a good portion of my trunk floor I was able to catch this by standing on the tranny and bouncing up and down to check the strengh of the mount - which is not possible with a regular 6 or 4 setup.

yes I read the entire thread, I believe that post was fairly early on in the progress of this thread.....and I will continue to urge Trekkor and anyone else doing a conversion of any type to use a more tried and true method for attaching the motor to the chassis....if this happens to be a dead horse then I am sorry.
As I said about some other modifications that folks are doing to their 914s if it was good enough for the factory.....
Bulkhead mount the only way to go

Now go back to Subie land....

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 25 2006, 10:08 PM

Not the way your post came across. At least to me.

Sorry if I got it wrong....

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 10:09 PM

So many choices...


KT

Posted by: fiid Apr 25 2006, 10:23 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 25 2006, 09:08 PM)

Posted by: fiid Apr 25 2006, 10:24 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 09:09 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 10:48 PM

I'm going to have my welder evaluate the bar and the welds or lack there of.

If he can make my bar ultra-strong, I'll run it again and keep a close eye on it.

If I can get it to hold up for the rest of the driving season I will leave it.

It it blows up again I will use something differant.

What would you do?

KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 25 2006, 10:51 PM

Any further word from PMS?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:00 PM

I think he's a morning person.

Posted by: jhadler Apr 25 2006, 11:06 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 08:48 PM)

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 25 2006, 11:09 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Apr 25 2006, 10:06 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:23 PM

Pretty funny.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 25 2006, 11:33 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 10:23 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 25 2006, 11:46 PM

I don't buy it.

What, I'll be the first?

My motor should have fallen out Saturday.
The bar can't fail any worse.
The WHOLE MOUNT PLATE WAS SEPERATED!!!!


kt

Posted by: Britain Smith Apr 26 2006, 12:04 AM

Ok, I have kept outta this because I have no experience with installing a 6 mount...either style. However, this is getting rediculous....we all know that Trekkor will do what he wants until he proves himself wrong. There have been some cool/resourceful things he has done. However, in this situation, I would have to agree with the guys against fixing, using, or considering this mount bar system. The mere fact that you are racing the car seems to me a considerable reason to pass on the cheap, easy mounting system and go for the most realiable, proven, system...i.e. a bulkhead mount.

It costs money to go racing and a lot of that is saftey. While in this instance, the mount bar broke in a location that kept the engine in the car, what is to say something worse won't happen again. If you look at the failure, it occured at the weakest point which happened to be at the point where the bar is under the most torque loads. If you strenghten the mount in this location, you transfer the weakest point to somewhere else. I feel that this will place even higher loads on the engine mounts in the tub as they are absorbing all the load. In my opinion the design is flawed in that it is using the motor itself as a structural contribution to the engine mount...i.e. the torque induced from the offset forward. This cannot be overcome in this design and therefore should be avoided, especially if the car undergoes significant weight transfer and high speeds. If you are going to do something, do it right the first time and focus your time/energy on driving the car fast instead of worring about a serious incident.

-Britain

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 26 2006, 12:19 AM

deceased equine......


you can leade a horse to water but you cant make him drink.


seems the water dont taste good to him

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 26 2006, 12:43 AM

QUOTE(Britain Smith @ Apr 25 2006, 11:04 PM)

Posted by: Britain Smith Apr 26 2006, 12:44 AM

Cool...sell it on ebay, some idiot will buy it and you can re-coop some costs!

Posted by: McMark Apr 26 2006, 02:38 AM

Trek, if you need a reminder of what broken tranny mount ears look like stop by the house. Personally, I wouldn't risk a motor and a race prepped tranny just to prove a point.

But if history is any factor, your welder will fix it and you will run it. Hopefully, it doesn't cost you your driveline.

Looking forward to the pictures of the repair.

Posted by: Mueller Apr 26 2006, 05:34 AM

QUOTE(McMark @ Apr 26 2006, 01:38 AM)

Posted by: DNHunt Apr 26 2006, 07:07 AM

I'm sorry you ran into this bad luck. Trek

If you won't look at this issue from the standpoint of the grief another failure will cause you think about what might happen to other people. If you have a piece of equipment on your car that is suspect you should not race. You put other people at risk. Try to predict when that mount might fail next. You can't. Try to predict what might happen when it lets go again. Are you absolutely sure you will be able to control your car? Course workers have a right to expect that drivers will not put them at avoidable risk. The odds are probably 1000 to 1 that nothing will happen but if you can make that 10,000 to 1 or 100,000 to 1 by removing a part that is known to fail you must do it.

Sorry I'm coming across as holier than thou but if I was teching and I knew you had a suspect engine mount I'd fail you. I watched Craig (Camp 914) fail Bruce Allert for a stripped wheel lug. Another guy came over and said to Bruce it was Bruce's call if he wanted to run and Bruce said it wasn't safe. The other guy was trying to be nice (Bruce had driven a long ways to run) and both Craig and Bruce were right to disallow the car.

Fix it right and have piece of mind.

Dave

Posted by: nocones Apr 26 2006, 08:25 AM

Nice to see so many level heads on this board.
As well as much concern for Trekkor and those he races with. Warms the heart...


Trekkor,

Here are the photos you asked for...


Attached image(s)

Posted by: nocones Apr 26 2006, 08:26 AM

And...


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 08:48 AM

Thanks for the pics, Micheal.

I'll take it!!!



The 7018 welding rod that we are thinking of using to repair the mount is rated at 70,000 PSI tensile strength.


Maybe I should listen to *everyone*.


I think we can overbuild the bar so it can't break.


What if there is a next time?


Hmmmm...



KT

Posted by: anthony Apr 26 2006, 08:53 AM

You did your six conversion in record time, what's a Saturday (or maybe half a Saturday) to install a RJ mount? I don't understand why you are still considering repairing this piece of .

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 26 2006, 09:00 AM

Because he just spent the Rich mount money on a roll cage

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:02 AM

It's not about the money...

What is it about then?

OK, now I'm talking to myself.

Well, what is it about?

Good question.


KT KT

Posted by: repro914gt Apr 26 2006, 09:05 AM

I climbed under my sixer last night and took a gander at the PMS bar mounted on my conversion. I agree that the bar design places a torque stress on the plate/welds as it is forward of the centerline of the stock 914 4 cross member mounts.

I don't plan on racing the car, but I may decide to do an AX once in a while. My question is: Should I trade out the bar to the PMS bulkhead mount (bolted) or just leave it alone?

The Rich johnson mount would be the way to go but my chassis is so clean and nice, I don't want to mess it up with welding. (Not to mention the down time - NO MORE JACK STANDS - at least for a while )

Opinions?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:13 AM

Posted by: repro914gt Apr 26 2006, 09:26 AM

KT -

If I were going to race my car, I'd replace the PMS bar that I have, with the rich Johnson style welded bulkhead mount. Just my opinion. I think I just answered my own question - I think I'll put on the PMS bolted bulkhead mount.

Another thought -

I'll bet that the Stanford or Berkeley engineering schools could (would) be interested in doing a metal fatigue analysis for little or no cost. I would ask and then ask PMS if they would pay for it. I would be interested in seeing how the stresses are distributed through the mount and where the metal is most vulnerable.

Posted by: fiid Apr 26 2006, 10:05 AM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 25 2006, 09:48 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 26 2006, 10:07 AM

why are we still talking about this?

EVERYONE said go bulkhead.

Posted by: slivel Apr 26 2006, 10:14 AM

Just for another data point to this discussion. I started with the PMS bar when my 914 was converted to a six. It was the generation 1 bar and the car was track use only. On the first track event my transmission shifting became very difficult. Reason.... the PMS bar had bent dropping the engine and bar down on to the shift rod binding it. The bar was replaced with another and the same thing happened. After much frustration I went to a bulkhead mount and have been trouble free for years. If PMS says their bar is not for track use ...BELIEVE them.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 05:33 PM

I found posts #'s 38, 65, 114 and 171 to be most helpful.

Thanks

Posted by: Mueller Apr 26 2006, 05:39 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 26 2006, 04:33 PM)

Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Apr 26 2006, 05:48 PM

QUOTE(Aaron Cox @ Apr 25 2006, 11:19 PM)

deceased equine......


you can leade a horse to water but you cant make him drink.


seems the water dont taste good to him

Posted by: Rand Apr 26 2006, 05:55 PM

I beginning to think we're gonna spend more time talking about a bulkhead mount than it would take to install one.

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 26 2006, 06:06 PM

trek i'll cut up your tranny ears, and you can just give me your SIX.

we'll call it even.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 06:44 PM

Posted by: bd1308 Apr 26 2006, 06:47 PM

crap!

my FOUR doesnt run....

but with 250 dollars and a 1997 land rover, i'll be there by 6:45

b

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 26 2006, 07:54 PM

This is what is on its way to me to replace my PMS bar.




Attached image(s)

Posted by: GWN7 Apr 26 2006, 08:16 PM

I haven't added my 2 cents yet....

Lets see...proven..strong and safe or proven poor design and brakes....Hmmmm

We should call this pic "Now where did that motor go?"


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: LvSteveH Apr 26 2006, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 26 2006, 04:33 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 08:53 PM

My welder came by to look a the project.

He was horrified

"Pathetic" was uttered.

He's convinced they forgot to weld it.

As to the fix, he wants to use 3/32 cro-mo rod and TIG it on Saturday afternoon. Then we'll have dinner

He said, "piece of cake" and "it won't break".

We'll see.

I see myself also ordering an RJ mount and having an install party with Grant when he's ready. Two in one day

KT

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 08:58 PM

In the mean time I will invent a diagonal brace that will make it impossible for the bar to move downward.

KT

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 26 2006, 08:58 PM

QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Apr 26 2006, 07:39 PM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 26 2006, 04:33 PM)

I found posts #'s 38, 65, 114 and 171 to be most helpful.

Thanks

I just wish he'd be consistant with his posts

Posted by: JOHNMAN Apr 26 2006, 09:03 PM

If you do attempt to repair the quick six mount, I would take a look at the other failure shown in this thread where the mount ripped the tubing just past the weld. You should print out that pic and show it to your welder for reference.

Your welder may decide to take a look at that weld as well and do some reinforcement.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 26 2006, 09:04 PM

hey trek, just in case no one has mentioned it yet, i'd rather go with a bulkhead mount instead of trying to fix this thing ...

Andy

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 26 2006, 09:07 PM

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:08 PM

Yes.


KT

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 26 2006, 09:12 PM

I'd get one of Rich's

Wait... I DID get one of Rich's.

WWAaD?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:13 PM

I was just wondering...What do you guys think about the idea of me using a different style of engine mount other than the PMS bar mount I have and was considering repairing?

I heard they make a bulkhead style or something. Anybody heard of this?


KT

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 26 2006, 09:15 PM

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 26 2006, 09:16 PM

Might wanna check around. I heard Andy installed one of John Richardsons in his car and it bent the whole thing up when he welded it in...

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 26 2006, 09:20 PM

Spit and rubber bands would be better than what ya had...prolly longer warrenty too....

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 26 2006, 09:20 PM

Now we are going from the sublime to the ridiculous

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 26 2006, 09:22 PM

i woulda thought the first 9 pages had you convinced. apparently not.

so, i vote bulkhead because eric shea did it, and he is my hero

Posted by: Randal Apr 26 2006, 09:28 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 26 2006, 07:53 PM)

My welder came by to look a the project.

He was horrified

"Pathetic" was uttered.

He's convinced they forgot to weld it.

As to the fix, he wants to use 3/32 cro-mo rod and TIG it on Saturday afternoon. Then we'll have dinner

He said, "piece of cake" and "it won't break".

We'll see.

I see myself also ordering an RJ mount and having an install party with Grant when he's ready. Two in one day

KT

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:30 PM

That popcorn guy cracks me up...Why does he look around before eating?

I'm gonna try that myself someday.


KT

Posted by: nine14cats Apr 26 2006, 09:31 PM

Trekkor,

I vote that you sell the 914 and buy a 911 GT car like me!

Mucho faster than a 914, handles better than a 914, and they don't break!....




Bill P.

(I go both ways....mid and tail! )

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 26 2006, 09:35 PM

And Bill, who is it that is still building that killer 914? I think it is called the Beast or something like that.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:35 PM

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 26 2006, 09:40 PM

Now I'm convinced. Sell the six and buy a Raby T4.

Posted by: nine14cats Apr 26 2006, 09:41 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 26 2006, 08:35 PM)

And Bill, who is it that is still building that killer 914? I think it is called the Beast or something like that.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 09:44 PM

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 26 2006, 10:11 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 26 2006, 08:44 PM)

QUOTE

Sell the six and buy a Raby T4.

I never saw that coming...Out of nowhere.



For anybody that's interested:
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/licensing/classifications.asp#engineer


KT

Posted by: trekkor Apr 26 2006, 10:18 PM

Nope, Bombay Saphire GT


KT

Posted by: Series9 Apr 26 2006, 11:49 PM

I did check my mount, as I do regularly. I expect there could be a failure, but don't necessarily expect one.

It's fine so far. If mine fails, I'll attempt a fix (I have some ideas for the reinforcement of the piece) and then replace it with a firewall mount if it starts to fail again.

You guys can be pretty dramatic on shit like this. I agree that the torsional stresses on this bar are significant, but to imply the problem can't be rectified with additional engineering is a little silly.

The original 'Quick 6'(from another company) mounts never fail and they have similar torsional issues. The only difference is that they overcome these stresses with large amounts of thick steel.

I'm not affiliated with PMS, but have found their products to be of high quality.

Posted by: LvSteveH Apr 27 2006, 12:40 AM

Clearly PMS has some nice products. What I can't understand is how they could take any failure of their products lightly. The world is full of talented engineers and fabricators that can literally make anything you can imagine, all it takes is time and money. The only thing that separates one company from another is reputation and track record. As much as I try, I just can't understand how ANY company could let something like this happen without being profoundly concerned and exceptionally accommodating.

PMS should have a new bulkhead mount in the mail to you at no cost, as a goodwill gesture. Look at all the trouble you have to go through because of the failure of their product. Sure, they can say they fired some crack head welder a while back because of shoddy work, but it's about taking responsibility for what you produce. Every time we buy a product, we put our trust and faith in the company that produced and sold it. I'd hate to think that in a market as specialized as Porsche conversion parts that they feel it's ok to turn a blind eye to their client base.

How many sales do you think they've lost every time a thread like this comes up? How many customers will they never have because Mike Z. had a poor experience with them? Unfortunately it's a case where they have enough customers, and evidently enough money coming in, that they don't have to care about every customer. When your name is on the part, I'd think pride should be more of a concern than money.

You know very well that PMS is following this thread, but we've never heard a word from them, and this is hardly the first time something like this has happened. That's because time is money, and no one is paying them to care about what people think. Every once in a while we all need to take a step back and remember that it's not about the cars, this is all about people, and their passion for cars.

Ok, rant over

Posted by: Part Pricer Apr 27 2006, 06:21 AM

QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Apr 27 2006, 02:40 AM)

Posted by: Eric_Shea Apr 27 2006, 06:38 AM

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 27 2006, 07:30 AM

QUOTE(LvSteveH @ Apr 26 2006, 11:40 PM)

Posted by: rhodyguy Apr 27 2006, 08:08 AM

how many 6 mounts are actually sold each year(new)? split the sales #s between rj and pms, and it's slim pickings for the manufacturers. my guess is there is a bunch of new stock, sitting on shelves from the last production run (when ever that may have been). as a vendor, you would think all items would have to be blasted, welds ground out, rewelded, or just thown in the recycle bin. start fresh. forget a q.c. inspection.

there is obviously a flaw in the manu process. i've seen concrete tilt walls (we're talking tons) with relatively small attachment points, welded with square bar stock and stick rods, backed into with trucks, and they don't fall over. i wonder if pms does the work in house or if it's farmed out?

k

Posted by: East coaster Apr 27 2006, 08:43 AM

Maybe I missed it, but did PMS respond to you yet Trekkor??

Posted by: trekkor Apr 27 2006, 10:19 AM

We've not spoken in a while.

Since I told him I wasn't returning the broken bar, it seems he's lost interest.

I've called and left messages. He called back once, but I was away from the phone.

Maybe I'll call him again today.

I'm not really sure what I should expect.
I really think he needs to use a bar and gusset with thicker guage metal.
Or include a bolt on diagonal brace that goes between the mount cradle and the firewal to prevent torsional movement.

That's what I plan to do after the weld repair is done.


KT

Posted by: lapuwali Apr 27 2006, 11:42 AM

Several here have stated they've seen 0 failures with the Rich Johnson mount. Well, I saw one. It was on a car with a hotted up 3.0, and the failure was cracking on one of the mounting ears that bolt to the engine. It was fixed with a reinforcement plate before anything bad happened. So, they CAN fail, even if it is a rare thing. Trekkor's 2.0 also doesn't put out anything like the torque of a 3.0, either.

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 27 2006, 12:03 PM

so i'm driving down 880 in the 914 to work this morning, nice morning, top off, cruising at 60 in the middle lane. i'm enjoying the ride and the world seems to be a good place to be. get a few thumbs up from strangers. a kid in a dodge ram with flowmaster exhaust thinks he's driving a race car and wants me to turn 880 into a drag strip during thursday morning rush hour. i laugh at him and he takes off. i feel good knowing i made his day. he raced a porsha and won, i'm sure it'll be the talk of the day. traffic was light and taking the offramp onto 92 at 65 put a big grin on my face. it was high tide and only a light breeze over the bay. the water almost looked like a mirror and the mist had yet to be burned off by the rising sun. the air smelled fresh and moist. i watched a few airplanes heading towards SFO as i crossed the san mateo bridge. it's amazing how beautiful this place is, especially in the morning. and the fact that i was in my 914 with the top down didn't hurt either. got to work in time and got myself a fresh coffee from the armenian coffee shop around the corner. someone had mowed the lawn last night and the fresh cut grass smelled like spring. it's supposed to be in the 80s today. can't wait to get back into the car for the ride home.

what was this thread about again?
Andy

Posted by: trekkor Apr 27 2006, 12:04 PM

Posted by: trekkor Apr 27 2006, 12:07 PM

Posted by: carr914 Apr 27 2006, 02:44 PM

OK you guys are scaring me. Where do you buy the RJ mount and how much?

T.C.

Posted by: Rand Apr 27 2006, 03:03 PM

Posted by: So.Cal.914 Apr 27 2006, 03:26 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Apr 27 2006, 11:03 AM)

Posted by: Van914 Apr 27 2006, 03:50 PM

Wow,
12 pages ont this subject. I bet PMS hasn't sold as many bars as people who have commented. I have one I bought new from PMS 2.2 with no problems. My friend also runs one on his PCA-GT5s 914 with a 2.2 and 180 rwhp. No problems for 5 years of abuse.
just my thoughts,
van914

Posted by: Mueller Apr 27 2006, 04:03 PM

QUOTE(Van914 @ Apr 27 2006, 02:50 PM)

Posted by: Brad Roberts Apr 27 2006, 04:13 PM

Posted by: brant Apr 27 2006, 04:52 PM

I agree the PMS bulkhead is built of the same strength materials.. but I think that the forces on it are quite different.

having that underbar reach behind the motor and take the force/twisting of the motor rocking forward back exerts more force than the simple up/down (without leverage) that the bulkhead gets.

I'm certainly no engineer, but I haven't yet heard of a single PMS bulkhead failure (and there is a lot of ancedotal about bar failures)

The factory bulkhead is small and puny, but works pretty good for what I theorize to be the same reasons.. less leverage, less force

brant

Posted by: Kerrys914 Apr 27 2006, 06:37 PM

Bad welds will fail both of the POS bars... If the quality control at POS is not there or he called in sick that day...The welds may not be what they should be and they will fail.


RJ mount all the way..Get-it and forget it

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 27 2006, 06:43 PM

QUOTE(carr914 @ Apr 27 2006, 01:44 PM)

Posted by: Jeroen Apr 27 2006, 07:45 PM

QUOTE(brant @ Apr 28 2006, 12:52 AM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 27 2006, 10:32 PM

This is prolly why I'm stubbornly trying to fix mine.

It wasn't welded...

Even with that it survived 20ish a/x's and 9 track days.

I'll give it one more chance.


KT

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 27 2006, 10:36 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 27 2006, 09:32 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 27 2006, 10:51 PM

2 points to consider:

1. This thread may never die.
2. If my bar breaks again do you really think I'll tell anybody.


KT

Posted by: Lou W Apr 27 2006, 10:56 PM

Posted by: jhadler Apr 27 2006, 11:13 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 27 2006, 08:51 PM)

2. If my bar breaks again do you really think I'll tell anybody.

Posted by: lapuwali Apr 27 2006, 11:30 PM

QUOTE(Brad Roberts @ Apr 27 2006, 03:13 PM)

Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Apr 27 2006, 11:49 PM

AKA "The rookie"
[/quote]

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 27 2006, 11:51 PM

QUOTE(Dan (Almaden Valley) @ Apr 27 2006, 10:49 PM)

QUOTE

AKA "The rookie"

Posted by: J P Stein Apr 28 2006, 07:27 AM

Lemme see if I got this right........
You put a part on your car that was missing a weld?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 08:45 AM

Yeah

What's the big deal?



KT

Posted by: nocones Apr 28 2006, 08:55 AM

QUOTE(J P Stein @ Apr 28 2006, 06:27 AM)

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 28 2006, 09:28 AM

Speaking of weight savings. In talking with Rich he indicated that I could cut out the standard 914-4 engine mounting structures which allows for better access to engine and cuts weight.

Trekkor, This is son of Frakenthread. ...It just wont die!

Posted by: DNHunt Apr 28 2006, 09:32 AM

But what if you want to go back to a /4?

Dave

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 28 2006, 09:52 AM

QUOTE(DNHunt @ Apr 28 2006, 08:32 AM)

But what if you want to go back to a /4?

Dave

Posted by: brant Apr 28 2006, 09:55 AM

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Apr 28 2006, 08:28 AM)

Posted by: DNHunt Apr 28 2006, 09:57 AM

So you have a match for the other VW parts.

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 28 2006, 10:15 AM

QUOTE(brant @ Apr 28 2006, 08:55 AM)

QUOTE(grantsfo @ Apr 28 2006, 08:28 AM)

Speaking of weight savings. In talking with Rich he indicated that I could cut out the standard 914-4 engine mounting structures which allows for better access to engine and cuts weight.

I knew given enough time and pushing we would get you into the right way of thinking....

yes...
yes you can...

now go get on some scales.
(oh... don't forget to add the 471$ price tag to your two thousand or what ever conversion total... )

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 05:18 PM

With the stock FOUR mounts, yes I thought of that already.

If my ( when my ) SIX blows up, I can slap the FOUR back in the car with carbs and still play while tracking down another SIX.

It appears $1500 for my complete 2.0 FOUR is to pricy for this crowd, so I'll keep it around until I need it that one day.

Let's not talk about that anymore though, OK?


KT

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 28 2006, 05:38 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 28 2006, 04:18 PM)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 05:44 PM

NO, no! We can keep this topic alive as long as we please.
It's blowing up my SIX I'd like to forget.


Whoo hoo


KT

Posted by: Mueller Apr 28 2006, 05:54 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 28 2006, 04:44 PM)

NO, no! We can keep this topic alive as long as we please.
It's blowing up my SIX I'd like to forget.


Whoo hoo


KT

Posted by: SirAndy Apr 28 2006, 05:56 PM

QUOTE(Mueller @ Apr 28 2006, 04:54 PM)

Should we be starting up a pool to name the date and place??

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 28 2006, 05:58 PM

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Apr 28 2006, 04:56 PM)

QUOTE(Mueller @ Apr 28 2006, 04:54 PM)

Should we be starting up a pool to name the date and place??

$10 bucks that he's not going to make it through this season without braking either the motor mount or the engine ...

Andy

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 06:02 PM

"Quite a turn, unexpected, this thread has taken"-Yoda.

Posted by: (*)(*) Apr 28 2006, 06:03 PM

I made a call to a certain friend of mine who owns a parts house that knows the seller of the mount and suggested that he tell the seller of the mount to pull his head out of his ass and back his product....the parts seller said that was a good idea and would pass the suggestion along.....let's see what happens....

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 06:12 PM

I wonder if this thread has been "seen by seller".

I plan to send the repaired mount pics directly to him with a follow up phone call.

KT

Posted by: Mueller Apr 28 2006, 06:15 PM

QUOTE((*)(*) @ Apr 28 2006, 05:03 PM)

Posted by: jhadler Apr 28 2006, 06:20 PM

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 28 2006, 04:12 PM)

Posted by: Aaron Cox Apr 28 2006, 06:21 PM

QUOTE(jhadler @ Apr 28 2006, 05:20 PM)

QUOTE(trekkor @ Apr 28 2006, 04:12 PM)

I plan to send the repaired mount pics directly to him with a follow up phone call.

KT

Not knowing the man myself, I'm pretty sure that he couldn't care less about the "repaired" part. What he wanted to see, I'm sure, was the failed part that he produces. It's really no longer his part after it's been modified.

The only way he'd be interested (I think) is if you offer to help him redesign the part so that it's stronger, without costing more to fabricate. Just a hunch...

-Josh2

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 06:27 PM

That's true. I didn't want to deal with shipping , waiting, inspecting, etc.

I inspected this bar prior to install and when I had it out for the racing trans swap.
Looked good both times to me and others.

From an e-mail I sent on the 25th:
"...Truthfully, I'd have to have him ( my welder ) go over any replacement part you may be willing to offer.
After what I found yesterday, I was completely shocked at the lack of welds."

After that statement, no further contact has been made.

Am I mean?

KT

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 06:30 PM

The pics he gets from me will show what *real* welds look like.

KT

Posted by: blabla914 Apr 28 2006, 06:33 PM

Trekkor,

Sorry to see this. All I can say is, it lasted a lot longer than mine! Here are some shots of how mine looked after two autocrosses with my "monster" 2.0L motor and a 205-50 R compound khumo.




Here's how I attempted to fix it. I still didn't like it. Under full throttle over bumps I could hear the engine revs jump as it flexed.



Went to a Rich Johnson mount. That thing is SOLID. Anyone interested in buying the above mount for $125, please PM me. If you are only running on the street, I believe this mount will be fine.

Kelly

Posted by: trekkor Apr 28 2006, 08:21 PM

I just ground all the old "welds" off.

My welder picked up the Cro-Mo TIG rods.

Tomorrow night


KT

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 29 2006, 08:51 PM

...well?

Posted by: trekkor Apr 29 2006, 10:20 PM

Since you asked.

I just got home, shot a few pics.
Had a nice dinner of lamb, chicken, shrimp, potatoes, asparagus, brussel sprouts, salad and bread.
Chocolate truffles and tira misu. (sp?)

Oh, the welds...


Turned out fantastic.

He said, "if this breaks, I don't want to be there."


KT


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 29 2006, 10:24 PM

More


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 29 2006, 10:26 PM

Show it off


Attached image(s)

Posted by: trekkor Apr 29 2006, 10:31 PM

Last.

Extra stitch welds behind the plate.

All this was done with a fantastic little welder. Totally portable.

A Miller 110/220V TIG/Stick no bigger than a small mailbox and weighs only 10 pounds.

This machine can do work like the machines mounted in a truck bed.

I want one.


KT


Attached image(s)

Posted by: McMark Apr 29 2006, 10:41 PM

Looks good. Judging from the other pictures in the thread I'd keep an eye on the welds directly on the bar to see if the bar starts tearing/cracking. But that plate isn't going anywhere.

Saw those little TIGs at the welding supply. They're great little units, I almost bought one myself, just because they were so dang portable.

Posted by: blabla914 Apr 30 2006, 07:17 AM

That's a real good looking repair. I'll be interested to see how that holds up for you. As Mark said, and I show in my picts, most of the failures I've seen have the bracket ripped off of the tube. That's why I chose to add pieces to go all the way around the tube. Yours is the first one I've seen have the plate separate.

Kelly

Posted by: grantsfo Apr 30 2006, 09:41 AM

Looks good. I would echo the concerns about the welds on the pieces that attach to the bar. If one set of welds were bad wouldnt others have potential of being bad as well?

Glad to see this fixed in short order. Will you be back on the road this week?

My car is in for alignement this week. I fixed my clutch adjustment and it shifts great now. Still a little bit of gear grinding in 1st to 2nd, but nothing terrible like before. And I have new throttle cable, pedal linkage and Engmans great looking aluminum pedal board. All my excuses should be gone by the next event.

Posted by: trekkor Apr 30 2006, 09:49 AM

Posted by: trekkor Apr 30 2006, 06:50 PM

I put it all back together in about an hour and a half.

I only had to re-connect the throttle cable and the shift rod. It slipped right back up in there.

Even cleaned the underside of the motor and drove it.


KT

Posted by: trekkor May 1 2006, 05:08 PM

I just e-mailed PMS with my repair pics and intentions.
I have not asked for anything from them due to the failure.
Just a FYI and I mentioned the thread here on the clubsite and the overall perception of his mount by the members.

KT

Posted by: (*)(*) May 1 2006, 06:43 PM

Tell him I said Hi......

Posted by: trekkor May 1 2006, 06:45 PM

I will.


KT